Speaker 1: I got a you Bloody Champions. Welcome to another installment
Speaker 1: the You Projector's harps. Who else would it be. It's
Speaker 1: a it's a bloody Wednesday. It's twelve thirty five and
Speaker 1: the thriving tropolis of Melbourne, and I'm chatting with one
Speaker 1: of my best friend in the world, Rip Dicko, who's
Speaker 1: not with us anymore. Love that man, Still love that man.
Speaker 1: I also love his brother, who is I'm going to
Speaker 1: be honest, not quite as good as Dicko was, but
Speaker 1: he's about ninety five percent.
Speaker 2: And that's okay. I mean because he was a gun.
Speaker 1: That's so mate, you been ninety five percent of as
Speaker 1: good as your brother.
Speaker 2: That's all right, isn't it.
Speaker 3: I'd take ninety five percent, I'd take eighty percent.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Great to be here and go on.
Speaker 4: I love I love speaking with you, and I'm very
Speaker 4: grateful that you got me on again.
Speaker 3: I love having chats with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too, mate, I love it. And I'm being silly.
Speaker 2: Of course.
Speaker 1: You're one hundred percent Pete Dixon, and you're a ripper
Speaker 1: in your own right. Your brother was a beauty and
Speaker 1: you know, but it's good to catch up with you again, mate,
Speaker 1: and what do you I know, you've just put out
Speaker 1: a book.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that.
Speaker 1: But it's been a while since you've been on here,
Speaker 1: and so for those who've been living under rock, dick
Speaker 1: O is a director, an award winning filmmaker, and now
Speaker 1: a two time author, one fiction, one not real life
Speaker 1: will call the other one. I don't know what we
Speaker 1: call it faction, But other than writing a new book,
Speaker 1: what have you been up to for the.
Speaker 2: Last few years?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I finished that book with about Rob he
Speaker 4: was my brother, and then sort of went into a
Speaker 4: what happens is I sort of in between projects. It's
Speaker 4: a tumultuous time for me, really, because there's a few
Speaker 4: things that happened. A I come down from a high
Speaker 4: after being creatively active for so long, and then then
Speaker 4: I get into the anxious part of it or what's next?
Speaker 3: And you know this game is you're really up.
Speaker 4: And down all the time, and you're hoping that you
Speaker 4: can fund the next project.
Speaker 3: You're hoping you have something that you passionately can work on.
Speaker 4: So it's been a bit lean in the documentary space
Speaker 4: for independence such as myself. Over the last few years,
Speaker 4: it's getting worse it's just getting really hard to fund
Speaker 4: documentaries in the sporting space. That the networks used to pay,
Speaker 4: they don't pay anymore. So I in between these books,
Speaker 4: I had a good project, a Carlton project, which was
Speaker 4: half funded by Carlton, half funded independently, and so I
Speaker 4: had a great chance to do a documentary on.
Speaker 3: That that was released this year, and that was on Fox.
Speaker 3: And in between they went really well. Yeah, yeah, it
Speaker 3: was great.
Speaker 4: It was about the nineteen seventy It was a sort
Speaker 4: of a homage to the past, the nineteen seventy Grand
Speaker 4: Final team, and I managed to speak to both Carlton
Speaker 4: and Collingwood, most of the players before, I mean the
Speaker 4: getting old, so it was a good chance to grab it.
Speaker 2: Did you talk to Jesus still alive?
Speaker 4: Jess is still alive, but he is not in great shape.
Speaker 4: So I used archival stuff for Jezza. I mean, there's
Speaker 4: a few of them that are really battling, so you
Speaker 4: had to sort of be very choosy with that. But
Speaker 4: so that came out. But in between, what's happened since
Speaker 4: I wrote that book. He was my brother. I really
Speaker 4: enjoyed that process. I remember talking to her last time.
Speaker 4: I really it's sort of filled to the void for
Speaker 4: me in the storytelling sense without documentaries, and.
Speaker 3: So I thought, I think I might try fiction.
Speaker 4: I was asked to write fiction and by one of
Speaker 4: my mentors, and I thought, I don't think I've got
Speaker 4: the words for fiction. I think it's and it's a
Speaker 4: really difficult thing to do. And anyway, I had an
Speaker 4: idea that's been in my head for a while, and
Speaker 4: I went ahead and had a crack and I remember
Speaker 4: the first few chapters. I thought I was flying. I
Speaker 4: thought this is the greatest piece of work. And I
Speaker 4: remember sending it to one of.
Speaker 3: Those mentors and the reaction was.
Speaker 4: What is this shit? So really, yeah, it put me
Speaker 4: straight back.
Speaker 3: In my box.
Speaker 4: But it was more about, you know, the writing was good.
Speaker 4: They liked the writing. It's just that there was no
Speaker 4: story to the first few chapters, which I sort of
Speaker 4: it was a good punch in the face straight up.
Speaker 4: So I changed attack on the whole thing and I
Speaker 4: went back to the drawing board, and a thousand edits later,
Speaker 4: I had a manuscript, and to my shock, it got
Speaker 4: picked up by a US publisher.
Speaker 1: So, and as somebody who's I've been published by a
Speaker 1: few publishers like Jeff'slattery Publishing.
Speaker 2: You would know him. In fact, your brother, your brother
Speaker 2: introduced me, God bless him.
Speaker 1: He introduced me to jeff'slater AKAIFL Publishing and Penguin I
Speaker 1: published with, And so I understand. Then I'm self published.
Speaker 1: I understand the journey and the process. And when I
Speaker 1: spoke to you the other day briefly and you told
Speaker 1: me that it got picked up by us published, I'm like,
Speaker 1: how the fuck did you do that?
Speaker 2: Dude?
Speaker 1: Like that is so for a first time fiction? Like
Speaker 1: to them, you're with respect like me, You're a nobody
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 4: Oh, absolute blank, yep, you're a literary nobody in America,
Speaker 4: just like me. Well you, I mean not to me, mate,
Speaker 4: it's special, but to them. So for them to actually
Speaker 4: pick it up that you must have been.
Speaker 1: Quite I mean, firstly, it was amazing and you deserve
Speaker 1: it and well done.
Speaker 2: But it's very rare that that happens.
Speaker 3: It's so rare.
Speaker 4: And I mean because I'm not a well known writer
Speaker 4: by any means. I mean in a documentary space, yes,
Speaker 4: but in writing, I don't have an agent as a writer,
Speaker 4: and an agent is bloody. I mean, the stats on
Speaker 4: that are one in six thousand. It's ridiculously difficult to
Speaker 4: get an agent. So I couldn't send the manuscript to
Speaker 4: the big publishers here in Australia because they just don't
Speaker 4: look at it unless your agent.
Speaker 3: You have an agent.
Speaker 4: I sent the manuscript off to a few of the
Speaker 4: local independent publishers indie publishers in Australia and got some rejections.
Speaker 4: You just know you're going to get rejected in this
Speaker 4: book game. So that was fine. Gold fiction not really
Speaker 4: their genre. So for some didn't get past the first
Speaker 4: chapter blah blah blah. So I started to target US
Speaker 4: and UK publishers.
Speaker 3: And I got one.
Speaker 4: I sent one and I remember looking at it initially
Speaker 4: thinking they're not going to accept this because the big
Speaker 4: in big red writing splashed across the portal page was
Speaker 4: we only accept US authors, so I thought.
Speaker 3: And I was in that stage where I'm just going
Speaker 3: to send it to everyone.
Speaker 4: So I sent it off lo and behold, a couple
Speaker 4: of weeks after that and I'm still, to be honest,
Speaker 4: I sent this manuscript off I don't know, six months
Speaker 4: ago to it to various places. I'm still getting responses
Speaker 4: that they haven't read it yet so.
Speaker 3: It takes forever. It's glacier speed, this sort of stuff.
Speaker 3: So I'd be whole.
Speaker 4: We horrified if an Australian one comes back soon and
Speaker 4: says they would take it. But anyway, because I've signed
Speaker 4: off for three years.
Speaker 3: But anyway, they came back and said, look, we have
Speaker 3: read the first few chapters.
Speaker 4: And we want to keep reading. So to us that
Speaker 4: means we're interested. We will get back to you. And
Speaker 4: I was shocked because I realized that that was this
Speaker 4: place that so then you're sort of on tenderhooks, just
Speaker 4: waiting and waiting. And anyway, about two three weeks later
Speaker 4: they came just seep because it was all email. They
Speaker 4: came back and said, we would like to publish your
Speaker 4: book simply.
Speaker 3: That was simply the line.
Speaker 4: And I to be honest, I cried to be honest.
Speaker 4: And because I'm an emotional unit, I don't blame you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm emotional. And this was one of those ones where
Speaker 4: I never really thought I was actually prepared next year
Speaker 4: great to sort of go, look, I'll even.
Speaker 3: Do it myself if I have to, just just to
Speaker 3: get the story out there.
Speaker 4: But so the next phase of that was you have
Speaker 4: to sign over for three years and they look after
Speaker 4: everything else. They are a massive publisher in the States.
Speaker 4: In terms of their online presence, I don't care either.
Speaker 4: I'm just happy that someone's taken it. And what they're
Speaker 4: telling me is that online is the only way to go.
Speaker 4: Their bookstores are dying off in America apparently, so everything
Speaker 4: they do is pushed hard online around the world, and
Speaker 4: they have around the world access and for printing, so
Speaker 4: if people go into a bookstore here, they won't be
Speaker 4: on the shelf, but they just have to asked for
Speaker 4: the title and it'll be there the next day because
Speaker 4: they have distribution centers in Australia, funnily enough in Danielong,
Speaker 4: which is in Victoria. So they sent me a bunch
Speaker 4: which I'm actually selling through my website, which is quicker.
Speaker 3: For people and cheaper. But yeah, it.
Speaker 4: Was amazing and I'm forever grateful to them, and they
Speaker 4: have been nothing but supportive and warm.
Speaker 3: They're always there. I mean, I'm just amazed.
Speaker 4: At the relationship that they offer, and to be honest,
Speaker 4: it's not a big money spit turning thing the book market,
Speaker 4: and just the fact they're doing this and they believe
Speaker 4: in the book astounds me, but there was another reason
Speaker 4: to it. There is a bit of an American flavor
Speaker 4: to it. It is about the masters, it is about
Speaker 4: playing golf for a green Master's jacket, so it's a
Speaker 4: hat tip to the masters, and I think I think
Speaker 4: that was something that attracted them.
Speaker 3: I like to.
Speaker 4: Think that they like the writing, but I think that
Speaker 4: was something that was a bit unusual.
Speaker 3: And then I found out that I was only one
Speaker 3: of two authors in Australia they have.
Speaker 1: So I was and I heard you on SCN and
Speaker 1: you don't know who the other one is.
Speaker 4: Right, No, I don't know who the other one is.
Speaker 4: And it was funny the guys were saying a bit
Speaker 4: flat that you're not the only one. I don't know
Speaker 4: who the other one is and I don't know the book.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I just think for them to do that,
Speaker 4: they I'm forever grateful.
Speaker 3: And so three years and yeah they have it. They
Speaker 3: have the rights to it for three years. So now
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of it's funny. It's sort of there's this.
Speaker 4: Big hype around right now it's released and you get
Speaker 4: a little excited, but then a couple of weeks time,
Speaker 4: as you know, with these things.
Speaker 3: It's all done. It's all done.
Speaker 1: What's interesting what I love about like when I signed with,
Speaker 1: you know, both the different publishers I signed with. What
Speaker 1: I love is it's like it dawns on you that
Speaker 1: it's in their interest to sell lots of books.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like they are highly motivated to sell your book and
Speaker 1: so all the shit that you don't want to do,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, and I know you're something of an introvert,
Speaker 1: and I know how much you love pr and talking publicly, right,
Speaker 1: so I guess they've kind of, you know, charged you
Speaker 1: with doing exactly what you're doing now, which is talking
Speaker 1: to various forms of media about the book, which you're
Speaker 1: very good at. But what is great is in terms
Speaker 1: of building a network and getting it into stores or
Speaker 1: getting it into hands whatever formatic comes in, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's an ebook or whether it's a physical book
Speaker 1: or eventually is it going to be audio eventually or no.
Speaker 4: Yes, they have told me that will happen. They're just
Speaker 4: waiting to see how it goes in the first few months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean having all of the back end
Speaker 1: taken care of where you don't have to sell shit,
Speaker 1: you don't have to distribute, you don't have to get
Speaker 1: it on the shelves, you don't need to worry about marketing, branding.
Speaker 1: Look feel it's just like, oh god, that's if you
Speaker 1: can just be the talent in inverted commas, it's such
Speaker 1: an easier path.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and they did in America. They're looking after all
Speaker 4: that side over there, and I mean, it just stuns
Speaker 4: me that some places will have this book, which is
Speaker 4: just makes me think, I just can't believe that's going
Speaker 4: to happen. But over here they did say obviously because
Speaker 4: of the distance, I have to do the heavy lifting
Speaker 4: in terms of marketing and trying to move it.
Speaker 3: But I don't mind that. Initially.
Speaker 4: I find the difficult part about all that side of it,
Speaker 4: especially with documentaries for me as well, is is I
Speaker 4: just think you can tend to get to the point
Speaker 4: where people are sick of you, do you know what
Speaker 4: I mean? And I do because I've been around so
Speaker 4: long with this sort of industry around in Melbourne anyway,
Speaker 4: you know your call on the networks and you have
Speaker 4: and they are they just they've been so wonderful to me.
Speaker 4: They were so wonderful to rob you as you know,
Speaker 4: in the past and look after me very well. But
Speaker 4: there comes a point where I, you know, I did,
Speaker 4: I did say to the publisher, I'll give it a
Speaker 4: good go for a couple of weeks and then that'll
Speaker 4: that'll do me from this end, and then I'll probably
Speaker 4: crank it up again sometime next year. But yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: not really comfortable with all that. I like, I don't
Speaker 4: mind doing it when when asked, but you know, you
Speaker 4: just got to think sometimes some some of the things
Speaker 4: you do are not of the interest of what the
Speaker 4: people are that you're looking to get on, you know.
Speaker 2: I think also.
Speaker 1: It's for somebody like you and a lot of people
Speaker 1: who don't necessarily love talking about themselves, right or you know,
Speaker 1: it's like it's just a thing you've got to do.
Speaker 2: And I understand it, but I think.
Speaker 1: It's never been more suited to to people like you.
Speaker 2: Now because you can just do this, you.
Speaker 1: Can just talk like it's not like, hey, we're willing
Speaker 1: you out for four minutes on the Today Show.
Speaker 2: Here he is and you've got to hey, everyone, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm Pete. Yep. Oh, the book's bloody amazing. And then
Speaker 2: now we're off to a break.
Speaker 1: You know those little soundbody quick, you're in makeup, you're
Speaker 1: wearing a lapel mic. You've got to talk like a
Speaker 1: chipmunk for three minutes. You've got to get the message out.
Speaker 1: You've got to be this performing puppet like versus podcasting
Speaker 1: now where we can talk about whatever we talk about.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the book. We're going to
Speaker 1: make people aware, We're going to hopefully sell a few
Speaker 1: copies for you. We're going to get a little bit
Speaker 1: of background and inside on the story and the journey.
Speaker 1: But I think this kind of format, like for me,
Speaker 1: I've worked on Telly, I worked on Channel ten for
Speaker 1: three years, I worked on sen for fifteen, Like, I've
Speaker 1: done bits and pieces of media, and for me, podcasting
Speaker 1: is the best because there are literally no fucking rules.
Speaker 2: You and I can for ten minutes or four hours,
Speaker 2: doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: That's that's right. Yeah. Are you Are you comfortable on
Speaker 3: screen and so forth? Is that something you're comfortable with? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I don't mind it.
Speaker 1: I don't have any huge desire to be on Telly
Speaker 1: or to have my head scene. I'm more like I'm fascinated, like,
Speaker 1: and this is not just a sales pitch for the show,
Speaker 1: like I'm genuinely fascinated with stories and human behavior and
Speaker 1: high performance and you know the psychology of success and
Speaker 1: failure and emotion, and like I'm I love just having
Speaker 1: great conversations with people. And obviously if somebody rocked up
Speaker 1: and said, you know, I actually got approached by the
Speaker 1: ABC to do a pilot for a show Pete called
Speaker 1: The Life Coach, and so they flew me into Sydney.
Speaker 1: They had a whole audience. They had me and another
Speaker 1: lady who was kind of a co host more with
Speaker 1: me leading the way, her kind of bouncing off me,
Speaker 1: and we had like, I don't know what it was,
Speaker 1: seventy or eighty people in this audience and we did
Speaker 1: this pilot show around you know, helping people get their
Speaker 1: shit together essentially, and it went great.
Speaker 2: We're better than I thought.
Speaker 1: And you know, when then the team came up to
Speaker 1: me and when you know the camera loves.
Speaker 2: You, you killed that. That was amazing.
Speaker 1: It's not a matter of if, but when all this
Speaker 1: stuff and as you know what I'm going to say,
Speaker 1: you say to you, it fell over, right. So there's
Speaker 1: so much uncertainty in mainstream media. Yes, and so firstly,
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for what I've done and where I've
Speaker 1: been and what I've seen and what I now have.
Speaker 2: Very grateful. So there's no.
Speaker 1: I'm not pissed off about anything, but the amount of
Speaker 1: people who say things that don't follow through on those things.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, yeah happens. It happens in the documentary game too.
Speaker 4: You know, yet promise that this is going to happen,
Speaker 4: and so you set yourself up for the next twelve
Speaker 4: months and it doesn't happen.
Speaker 3: It kills you. It just kills you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it kills you. I mean, you can't plan.
Speaker 4: It kills you, your direction in where you're heading, and
Speaker 4: throws everything off balance. And I'm and I'm one of
Speaker 4: those I think you know this, but even with this
Speaker 4: book release, I'm I just get petrified at this point.
Speaker 4: There's an element of me that feels like I'm the
Speaker 4: biggest fraud in the history of frauds. And I've always
Speaker 4: had that with the films you make, you put it out,
Speaker 4: because then then I'm just petrified.
Speaker 3: That any is anyone going to like this. I mean,
Speaker 3: what am I doing?
Speaker 4: And I think anyone who does what I do, I
Speaker 4: think that's that's just part of the business.
Speaker 3: That's just part of the I love.
Speaker 4: I love the process of writing, a love of the
Speaker 4: process of making films, but petrified at the end when
Speaker 4: it's done.
Speaker 3: That doesn't make any sense, and.
Speaker 1: It makes all the sense I think that. Firstly, I
Speaker 1: think feeling like an impost or a fraud. This is
Speaker 1: very counterintuitive and contrary to most opinions. I think it's good.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. I think it's good because it
Speaker 1: stops you from getting a fat head. It keeps you grounded,
Speaker 1: like it makes you like I've said this a million
Speaker 1: times to my listeners. I'm not a genius at all.
Speaker 1: I was never like you or your brother. I didn't
Speaker 1: have great genetics. I didn't have sporting talent. I wasn't
Speaker 1: the funniest, I wasn't the fastest. I couldn't fucking sing.
Speaker 1: You know, all of that mediocrity that was my starting point,
Speaker 1: and then all the self doubt and the overthinking and
Speaker 1: the fucking imposter syndrome that never goes far away. Like
Speaker 1: I'm a good communicator and I can talk, but that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean I'm not fucking scared.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean.
Speaker 1: You know, literally, I did a gig the other day
Speaker 1: for AGL in the city, and it was quite a
Speaker 1: big gig and it was two hours and it was
Speaker 1: fair bit of dough and all of that and before
Speaker 1: I got up, literally, and I've done it thousands of times.
Speaker 1: People like, that's my job. I've been doing it since
Speaker 1: I was twenty five corporates. You know, I'm sitting on
Speaker 1: this couch at the back of the room while this
Speaker 1: MC is banging on about different stuff and then starts
Speaker 1: to introduce.
Speaker 2: Me and my bio.
Speaker 1: You know, like forty years of stuff condensed into the
Speaker 1: best shit I've ever done in thirty seconds.
Speaker 4: Sounds pretty impressive. Impressive, Yeah, but it's funny. The more
Speaker 4: they read that, it's almost like I wish there.
Speaker 1: I'm like, let's set the bar lower so their expectations,
Speaker 1: because when you read out my bio, it sounds like
Speaker 1: fucking Superman's about to get up. Yes, you know, and
Speaker 1: I still get up, mate, And that's self doubt, that
Speaker 1: overthinking that. You know, that's normal, it's just fair.
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm glad to say that. I'm glad.
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to make you feel better too.
Speaker 1: And I've coached lots of people and it's the same
Speaker 1: but here's this is what I think, right, So there's
Speaker 1: humans have this ability to simultaneously feel not good enough
Speaker 1: but know that you are right. It's like I can think, oh, fuck,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually I've just been lucky for the last
Speaker 1: thirty forty years. Like I'm like, if they actually find
Speaker 1: out what goes in my head, what goes on in
Speaker 1: my head? Fuck, nobody's going to want to listen because
Speaker 1: I don't even have my own shit together.
Speaker 2: So who am I to tell them? You know all that?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Why fuck listen? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And it's like you you've never you've never done it, right,
Speaker 1: of course you're not this, You're not that. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just an ex fat kid from fucking Ladro Valley.
Speaker 2: All that shit happens.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there's this part of my
Speaker 1: brain that goes yep, Roger that I see all of that,
Speaker 1: I feel all of that. But also, Craig, you've literally
Speaker 1: done this thousands of times. You've even done it for
Speaker 1: this company and they asked you to come back, so
Speaker 1: you can't be complete shit, you know.
Speaker 2: So there's that there.
Speaker 1: But I I sorry it's a long winded rant, but
Speaker 1: I feel like that emotional stuff because it's all emotional,
Speaker 1: it's all fear based. It's all you know, self doubt,
Speaker 1: overthinking and feeling like a fraud, imposter syndrome, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call it.
Speaker 2: It's all the same thing. And it's just a form
Speaker 2: of fear. But fears is a motivator.
Speaker 3: That just sums me up.
Speaker 4: But I mean, I also I've also let I've also
Speaker 4: shared the I had the.
Speaker 3: What's the word I had.
Speaker 4: The following Rob following Rob's efforts with films and you know,
Speaker 4: keep doing them myself. I've always had that I'm not
Speaker 4: good enough. I've never matched his level of brilliance. I've
Speaker 4: always had that.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 4: Thought I got to a place about Actually, last time
Speaker 4: I spoke to you, once I wrote that book, I
Speaker 4: thought I'd got to a place where I'd settled that
Speaker 4: within myself.
Speaker 3: I thought, I am who I am, you know, I
Speaker 3: do what I do.
Speaker 4: And I sort of started to feel proud of myself
Speaker 4: in that space of the documentaries.
Speaker 3: And I think I think I reached out in documentaries.
Speaker 4: But it's funny, I've just thrown myself back into the
Speaker 4: into this timotacting arena with them with the book, writing
Speaker 4: you know because compared to authors, compared to I'm nobody.
Speaker 4: But I'm just All I'm doing is having a go.
Speaker 4: And I think the only thing that holds me, holds
Speaker 4: wait for me is the storytelling. And I think if
Speaker 4: I have a gift, it is storytelling. And I've accepted
Speaker 4: that now. So the way I write fiction is the
Speaker 4: way I do documentaries. I craft it. I there's there's
Speaker 4: three acts. I go through the whole process. This this
Speaker 4: this fiction, which is based on elements of every single
Speaker 4: person I've ever met. It has everything that I would
Speaker 4: put into a film. It has it has humor, it
Speaker 4: has emotion. You'll laugh, you'll cry, You'll you'll get to
Speaker 4: know characters, You'll feel like you you're connected to those characters.
Speaker 3: That's what I tried to get out of it.
Speaker 4: And I was talking about this yesterday, trying to find
Speaker 4: resolution with those characters. But one of the most difficult
Speaker 4: things with fiction is you get to the end. And
Speaker 4: sometimes I read books and go, I'm not quite. I
Speaker 4: don't think I'm done, you know, I don't think I've
Speaker 4: got to where I want to get with these characters.
Speaker 4: But I think I've managed to do that here.
Speaker 3: After one thousand rewrites back.
Speaker 4: It's essentially for those who if they do like the
Speaker 4: way I tell stories, I think they'll like this book.
Speaker 3: And that's all I can ask. I'm not out here
Speaker 3: to if you know it well.
Speaker 1: I also think it's important that people know it's about golf,
Speaker 1: but it's not really about golf. And I think when
Speaker 1: I first saw it's called The Embedded Lie everyone. By
Speaker 1: the way, when I first saw the cover, I went, cheese,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know the book about golf.
Speaker 1: I'm like, mate, a book about golf. That's the smallest
Speaker 1: fucking market.
Speaker 2: Ever, are you really?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And then and then I started to understand what the
Speaker 1: book was. I'm like, oh, dude, this is not this
Speaker 1: is not about golf. Golf is just like a reoccurring theme.
Speaker 1: It's about relationships and people and communication and connection and
Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of the human experience stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So the publisher had came back with thoughts on covers
Speaker 4: and it was an interesting process.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if this is of interest to you,
Speaker 3: but definitely. So.
Speaker 4: My initial thoughts was the seaside setting, because it is
Speaker 4: based around the Point Lonsdale, sort of Ballerine area, and
Speaker 4: I threw that to them. My daughter Abby, who's very artistic.
Speaker 4: She sort of painted this little sort of image of
Speaker 4: what I had in my head, and the publisher saw it.
Speaker 3: It was very impressed and sort of thing. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: they had.
Speaker 4: That same sort of reservation about you know, is it golf.
Speaker 4: But I think it's a beautiful cover. It's sort of
Speaker 4: but again, you're right, I think it'll throw a lot
Speaker 4: of people off, But in the end, I just thought
Speaker 4: it's perfectly fitting for what the story is. That it's
Speaker 4: sort of set around the game, if you like. There's
Speaker 4: a little bit of a sort of a love letter
Speaker 4: to sport, to golf. And I've stayed in my lane
Speaker 4: with this as well. My lane is sport, my lane
Speaker 4: is documentaries, and this within this story is a documentary,
Speaker 4: is made within the fiction story. So and it's very
Speaker 4: much about relationships of very much about family dynamics, very
Speaker 4: much about friendships over decades and the ups and downs
Speaker 4: of that. And the ten percent element of the book
Speaker 4: is golf.
Speaker 3: So you're right, it.
Speaker 4: Probably will throw people off at the cover, but it's
Speaker 4: just looking at it now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm happy with it. Are you never
Speaker 3: really happy with it? I'm not sure, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: But I think that's part of being like I reckon
Speaker 1: And I could be totally wrong with this because.
Speaker 2: But just just.
Speaker 1: Going back for a moment to you and Rob, like
Speaker 1: what was like this creative and energetic force, like this charismatic,
Speaker 1: you know, confident, charming, cheeky, all that, right, But I
Speaker 1: feel like with you your You've got skills and qualities
Speaker 1: and attributes that are brilliant that he didn't have. Like
Speaker 1: I feel for you, You're you're more measured, You're more
Speaker 1: you're probably more cautious, but probably more structured and process
Speaker 1: driven and box ticking and accountability. And whereas Rob was
Speaker 1: like a dog with three dicks, Rob was just like yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and whereas like he was just a force.
Speaker 2: But it's like.
Speaker 1: We needed to almost like wrangle him, like just to
Speaker 1: go that's good. But you know, one thing at a time.
Speaker 4: Not thirteen Yes, when we were in business together doing
Speaker 4: our docos, was I was constantly trying to wrangle him in.
Speaker 4: And I think I wasted a few years of my
Speaker 4: own sort of creative element by trying to keep Rob
Speaker 4: on track, because he was such a powerful force, as
Speaker 4: you said, and he so creative and could hold a
Speaker 4: room walk in.
Speaker 3: You know, everyone was aware Rob was there. It's charismatic.
Speaker 3: I'm not like that. I'm a bit more quieter and reserved.
Speaker 4: I can do it if I want to, but I
Speaker 4: just it doesn't It's not as if Rob tried to
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 3: I think it was just him. It was just the
Speaker 3: way he was.
Speaker 4: But yeah, you're right, I'm a bit more measured. I
Speaker 4: sort of, as I like to say, was always kind
Speaker 4: of a bass player in the hilarious yeah up the front,
Speaker 4: you know, and I'm just sort of plugging away behind
Speaker 4: the scenes. And so if anything, I've had to, I've
Speaker 4: had to put myself out the front of that after
Speaker 4: his passing with what I've done, and it's not easy
Speaker 4: for me at all. But yeah, I'm a lot different
Speaker 4: to him, and I like to think, and this is
Speaker 4: another thing about the riding, to be honest, it has.
Speaker 3: Released me from the shackles.
Speaker 4: Of Rob in the sense that I'm doing something that
Speaker 4: he didn't do, and I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't. He probably could have the prick, you know,
Speaker 3: I bet you we could have if he wanted to.
Speaker 4: But I've got something that's mine now, like because forever
Speaker 4: in a day. When I do sports documentaries, I release
Speaker 4: them and the first thing people talk about is the
Speaker 4: legacy of Rob.
Speaker 3: And doctors and I love it. I love it.
Speaker 4: I love his name being still mentioned. But there is
Speaker 4: part of me that can't escape the fact that am
Speaker 4: I doing this because of Rob kind of thing? Whereas
Speaker 4: these books, especially this one, is fiction. This is this
Speaker 4: is out of the box in terms of something I
Speaker 4: doubt Rob would have ever done. So there is a
Speaker 4: there is a slight satisfaction in that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, and you love your brother, and you
Speaker 1: always love your brother, but it's your your you.
Speaker 2: He was him and you don't.
Speaker 1: Have to live in his shadow, and neither would he
Speaker 1: want you to or you know, and you've got your
Speaker 1: own talent and your own path. Hey, I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you what surprised you about the fiction writing process, Like,
Speaker 1: was there anything where you went off? Is it twenty
Speaker 1: times harder? Or this is easy? Like what not came up?
Speaker 4: Well, what's surprising you was how bloody hard it is.
Speaker 4: You're right, It's just it's so difficult. I had no
Speaker 4: idea how difficult it was to I make shit up.
Speaker 3: That is interesting. There's a lot of there's a lot.
Speaker 4: Of elements of this that I've based on real events,
Speaker 4: But you can't just it's a biography then if you
Speaker 4: go that way.
Speaker 3: So what I had to do is even.
Speaker 4: As simple things, Craig, is what am I going to
Speaker 4: name these characters?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 4: You think that's easy, It's bloody hard. What relationships do
Speaker 4: they have with each other?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 3: It just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 4: So the further I got into writing, I started to,
Speaker 4: I feel the first half when I wrote it, it was okay.
Speaker 4: The second half I got into my groove and it
Speaker 4: took about ten eleven months, and because I was in
Speaker 4: between documentaries and waiting for the call, waiting for the
Speaker 4: next funding, I had time on my hands. And the
Speaker 4: problem with me is I can't do anything else. Like
Speaker 4: I look at everyone else's occupation and I'm jealous of
Speaker 4: how other people operate their lives because I don't have
Speaker 4: any other options. My options are storytelling and documentary and
Speaker 4: it's a it's a prick of an industry for that,
Speaker 4: for constant work, for a constant income.
Speaker 3: I'm just sometimes just bloody lucky that I've got a
Speaker 3: wife who's a doctor.
Speaker 4: To be honest, in these periods where I'm not earning
Speaker 4: as much.
Speaker 3: As I should.
Speaker 4: You know, there's coverage there, so and she backs me
Speaker 4: all the way with that. But yeah, it's it's hard,
Speaker 4: it's it's a grind. I'm I'm a pretty good The
Speaker 4: thing about writing is I'm I'm a world class typist.
Speaker 3: I must admit. One of the one of the most.
Speaker 4: Bizarre things that ever was when I worked at the
Speaker 4: National Safety Council with Rob years ago. One of the
Speaker 4: first things they taught me was how to type, which
Speaker 4: I look back now and go, that's one of the
Speaker 4: greatest things I.
Speaker 3: Ever got from the National Safety Council.
Speaker 4: Because I can without looking type fast, so I can
Speaker 4: punch through manuscripts and words, and I generally averaged when
Speaker 4: I was really pumping it out about three to four
Speaker 4: thousand a.
Speaker 3: Day what words.
Speaker 4: So I was So what that process is is I'm
Speaker 4: just in the zone and I'm writing, and I'm in
Speaker 4: the characters.
Speaker 3: And I'm feeling it, and I'm I get through it.
Speaker 3: That has to be reworked a lot what I've just written,
Speaker 3: but I'm getting there. I'm pushing through the story.
Speaker 4: So I have an ability to do that, which I
Speaker 4: did not know before I started writing the first book,
Speaker 4: I did not know I had that at all. Right,
Speaker 4: I've always I'm not a greater student by any means,
Speaker 4: and when I look back at my schooling, English was
Speaker 4: clearly my best subject any mathematics. I can't even look
Speaker 4: at my son's year eight stuff. I just don't know
Speaker 4: what he's talking about, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I'm no good but yeah, so English, so and essays.
Speaker 3: I always was good at essays, but I never.
Speaker 4: Put it into practice in a working sense until now.
Speaker 4: So maybe there is something there, and I'd like to
Speaker 4: do another one. I think it can only get better
Speaker 4: now that I've got one out of the way. But again,
Speaker 4: it's how much you commit to this genre of storytelling,
Speaker 4: because you know, you've got to get to a point
Speaker 4: where you realize you're not going to make a schoolion
Speaker 4: dollars from it. It's more self satisfaction really, unless you
Speaker 4: get a big published, get an agent, and get it
Speaker 4: out there.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been mentoring a young guy for years,
Speaker 1: like he came in one of my programs when he
Speaker 1: was nineteen, met him when he was seventeen or eight,
Speaker 1: and he's thirty six. Now.
Speaker 2: I would love to get you two together. You would
Speaker 2: love him.
Speaker 1: He actually he reminds me a little bit of Rob
Speaker 1: in that he's good looking, as charismatic as fuck. He's charming,
Speaker 1: he's very likable. It's got a couple of kids and
Speaker 1: a wife is thirty. Tommy his name is Tommy Jacket,
Speaker 1: and he's making docos and he just started, you know,
Speaker 1: just like fifteen years ago, filming stuff with me little things,
Speaker 1: and now he just came back from the States. He
Speaker 1: spent nearly two months with a team of seven, fully
Speaker 1: funded by private equity for a fair bit of dough.
Speaker 2: I know how much dode like, not insignificant and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he like but he's he's killed himself to get
Speaker 1: to this point where they went to the States and
Speaker 1: they filmed a doco around gun culture and basically the
Speaker 1: psychology of Americans and their guns and relationships with their
Speaker 1: guns through the lens of Australians.
Speaker 2: I've seen some of the footage. It's fucking amazing.
Speaker 1: And he's like you, he's a really good storyteller and
Speaker 1: like the of his stuff is like television better than
Speaker 1: like it's great.
Speaker 2: You would love it.
Speaker 1: You would love him, But yeah, I don't know why
Speaker 1: I told you that in the middle of the podcast.
Speaker 1: But I just see a lot of not that necessarily
Speaker 1: you would do anything together.
Speaker 2: But I think he's a kindred spirit, like he would
Speaker 2: just thinking that.
Speaker 3: I was actually just thinking those terms. It sounds like
Speaker 3: a kindred spirit.
Speaker 1: He would get you, and you would get him, and
Speaker 1: he would go, mate, what about this?
Speaker 2: And you go, ah, fuck, let me tell you a
Speaker 2: story about that.
Speaker 1: And he's always trying to get you know, things up
Speaker 1: and getting funding and you know the stuff that he
Speaker 1: does produce though, and it's now it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: like he goes to the States with two or three
Speaker 1: camera people and the sound people and a production manager
Speaker 1: and like the whole you know, it's not like it's
Speaker 1: a cast of thousands, but it's you know, they spent
Speaker 1: lots of dough and you know, they've got hundreds of
Speaker 1: hours of footage. They've got to turn it into a
Speaker 1: ninety minute docco that is going to be on hopefully
Speaker 1: some streaming platform.
Speaker 4: And but yeah, we might way to go. Yeah's love
Speaker 4: to me. Private EQUI is a good way to fund it.
Speaker 4: That's a nice way to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I might we should organize a coffee you and
Speaker 1: me and him, you love it, you too would like
Speaker 1: each other, Like he's one of those dudes where you're like, ah,
Speaker 1: you know some people. This is going to sound weird,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to give you a fat head Tommy,
Speaker 1: but like some people, you like being around them, Like
Speaker 1: you walk away feeling more positive and more energized.
Speaker 2: And it's not a.
Speaker 1: Drain, like there are a percentage of people, not a
Speaker 1: lot that I walk away from them like I feel
Speaker 1: like I've been just fucking backstroking and quicksand emotional quicksand
Speaker 1: like set me out. Yes that's hard, and every time
Speaker 1: it's like, oh god, it's hard.
Speaker 2: But he's the opposite. But anyway, we'll see if we
Speaker 2: can look that up. Mate. I love chatting with you.
Speaker 2: The book is called The Embedded Lie. Everybody.
Speaker 1: I'm super proud of you. You're a gun, You're a
Speaker 1: good human. I love your humility but also your talent
Speaker 1: and your creativity. Thanks for coming out to play mate,
Speaker 1: Thanks for chatting to me again, and we love you
Speaker 1: being on the You project and we're always going to
Speaker 1: support you and you know we'll get you back.
Speaker 2: Again when you're doing your next thing whatever that looks like.
Speaker 3: I'm just so grateful to you, mate for this chat.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 4: I love speaking to you. I I adore reconnecting with
Speaker 4: Rob's best mates. For some reason, it really warms my heart.
Speaker 4: And you're one of them, and I it makes me
Speaker 4: feel a bit closer to him when I do so.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 4: Supporting my work, Craig, You've been amazing and this book.
Speaker 4: It's available at my website Peterdison dot com dot are
Speaker 4: you if anyone wants to have a read eye But
Speaker 4: to you personally, I love chatting with you and I
Speaker 4: just appreciate it so much, mate.
Speaker 1: Mate, It's a pleasure and it's win win, definitely win win.
Speaker 1: We'll have a chat off air in a minute. But
Speaker 1: for the moment, mate, the books called The Embedded lie By.
Speaker 1: Christmas is coming, everybody, come by ten. I cannot be
Speaker 1: lazy good if Christmas is coming. Just get ten and
Speaker 1: we'll say goodbye.
Speaker 2: We'll say goodbye off here in a moment. But for now, mate,
Speaker 2: thanks for being on the You project.
Speaker 3: Cheers mate, I appreciate it.