WEBVTT - Why scrapping net zero won’t save Sussan Ley 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.880 His plan is one hundred percent supported by our government. 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.000 One supported by our government. It was resolved by. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.440 Cabin Once upon a time in the not too distant past, 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.239 a Liberal leader frantic cameras dispute the economic benefits of 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:17.799 net zero. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.880 The Coalition is rock solid on pursuing this plan because 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:25.639 this protects jobs, it protects livelihoods, and it protects a 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:30.400 way of life for rural and regional Australia. 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.440 Now, just four years later, despite supporting it herself, Susan 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.200 Lee is set to dump net zero so her party 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.840 won't dump her. But if the party is right winning 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.519 the battle on climate policy, they're also set to win 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.720 the war within the Liberal Party. Betsy Now on when, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:56.240 not if, Lee will lose leadership. I'm Daniel James and 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.840 you're listening to seven AM today. Contributing editor of the 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.760 New Daily, Amy Remikiez on the coalition's civil war on 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.119 climate policy and how it lets labor off the hook. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:21.000 It's Saturday, November eight Amy, Susan Lee looks set to 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.880 walk away from net zero to save her leadership. Tell 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.399 me about how the fight over net zero is currently 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.080 playing out within the Liberal Party. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.800 Well, it actually started about six months ago, this most 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.440 recent blow up over climate when the Nationals started making 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.240 a lot of noise about net zero, and Barnaby Joyce 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.000 and Matt Canavan in particular, we're out and about saying 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.039 we don't want to be part of net zero. We 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.520 think it's costing too much money. We want to bring 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:50.560 this policy down. 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.280 Currently we're not getting a good deal from net zero. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:56.440 It's been a bit of a scam where bankers and 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.360 big business makes money and small businesses, families have to 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.320 pay more. Power prices have gone up forty percent since 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.160 we signed up to net zero, both electrics and. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.640 We saw that when the National Party threatened to walk 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.120 away from the coalition almost as soon as Susan. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.240 Lee became a leader. 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.480 I mean, David Little Proud was trying to contact Susan 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.880 Lee as she was trying to handle her mother's death. 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:24.079 It was brutal and it hasn't really stopped being that brutal. 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.880 It's just gone a little bit more. Under the covers. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.880 Are United Front, the National Party in lockstep on abandoning 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.200 a net zero targety. A little while ago informed the 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.000 Opposition leader Susan Lee of the National Party's decision to 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:41.880 scrap net zero by twenty fifty. 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.480 So the Nationals have officially walked away from net zero, 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.720 which is where we always knew that they were going 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:48.079 to go. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.160 We continue to believe that we need to reduce emissions, 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.480 but we've got to do it in a better fare 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.160 and cheaper way for all Austrains. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.520 The right of the Liberal Party want to follow, and 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.520 they're getting very very low about wanting to follow. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:02.920 So that's your angus. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:07.359 Taylor, You're Andrew Hasty, You're Sarah Henderson, mikayliea Cash. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.720 We can't keep supporting targets it are unachievable or distructive 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.520 to our economy and our way of life. I think 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.200 we're going to destroy our country on that current trajectory, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:18.880 and that's why I'm so opposed to sticking with net 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:20.320 zero and Labour's climate. 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.960 I very much hope that my Libul colleagues support the 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.960 position where we turn our back entirely on Labour's terrible 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:28.440 net zero laws. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.960 And then you have Lee, who is supported by the 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:36.720 moderates in the party room, trying to walk this line 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.680 where she's saying, Okay, let's have a look. 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.360 At the review and see what we can do. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.480 I said when I became leader, we would develop an 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:49.440 energy policy that delivered a stable, reliable grid for affordable 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.720 energy for households and businesses, and we'd play our part 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.560 responsibly in reducing emissions. And those are still the two 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.000 fundamentals in the energy policy that we are producing. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.240 The moderates really pushing to maintain some sort of link 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.920 to net zero, and the right of the party saying 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.720 if you do any of that, we're going to destroy you. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.960 So it's an absolute mess. 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.480 So the key argument for those in the party don't 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.760 support next zeros apparently around cost and they're saying that 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.279 is driving our energy prices. So is there any evidence 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.320 behind that claim and where is that assertion coming from. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.920 So it's a bit complicated that these things always are. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.400 I mean, our energy mix and what makes our prices 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.360 is a mix of gas and coal and renewables, and 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.400 renewables are by far the cheapest source of power in 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.040 our network at the moment. It's one of the reasons 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.240 why the government is saying, well, we can give you 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.400 three hours free power because there's so much renewables in 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.600 the system, it's so cheap they can afford to do that. 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.480 Coal and gas are still very expensive. 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.520 And every time that there's in, every single time that 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.640 there's some sort of waves in the energy market, because 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:09.039 our gas in particular is exposed to the international prices, 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:13.280 our energy price goes up. So it's not because of renewables. 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.119 It's because of the amount of gas and coal still 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.080 in the system, and we haven't transitioned to a point 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.960 where we don't need the coal. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:24.200 And gas just yet. That's the reason why power prices 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:24.960 are so high. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.440 That doesn't really fit the narrative of what the Nationals 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.200 and the right of the Liberal Party want people to know. 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.120 They want people to think like, oh, it's the transition 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.839 that's costing you all of this money, when we know 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.840 just from looking at the evidence that that is not true. 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.000 They're also pulling this number seven to nine trillion dollars, 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.280 which sounds really scary, but it comes from a report 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.360 that this big agency, McKinsey did where they were looking 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.800 at the cost of transition, and that figure that seven 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:01.039 to nine trillion dollars was about investment. The Liberals who 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.039 want to get rid of net zero, and what the 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.159 Nationals are not telling you is that this isn't a cost. 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:07.159 It's investment. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.560 An investment, as the report laid out, also reaps rewards. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.520 It also has benefits, so you get money back from that. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:19.000 It also didn't take into account the cost of doing nothing, 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.320 which is very very similar to the cost of investment. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.599 So they've cherry picked these figures from the report to say, oh, 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.400 this is going to cost x amount when it's just 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:30.599 not true. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:36.760 So is this a coordinated, internationally devised strategy to retain 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.159 fossil fuels as part of the energy mix across the globe? 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:42.920 Is this something that's been coordinated When. 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.240 You look at the talking points, it absolutely is. 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.000 All of these conversations happen globally and you see the 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:52.920 same lines and the same flash points pop up all 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.200 over the world. So at the moment we have UK 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:59.000 politicians who are following Nigel Farage, who's their version of 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.640 Pauline Hanson threatening to lie down in front of bulldozers 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.880 to stop a solar farm from being built. It is 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.279 all the same lines that are just being dolled out 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.040 by these people. And we know that it's being funded 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.120 by fossil fuel vested interests because we've seen evidence of 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.920 that across the globe. This is not unique to Australia, 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.880 and often you can see what's coming down the pipeline 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.240 by watching what is making news in the United States 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.480 and the UK, and you can be like, oh, okay, 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.240 we're going to have big fights about wind farms very 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:30.840 very soon. 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.760 And sure enough we're having fights about wind. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:41.000 Farms or wind duils, is Donald Trump calls them. Coming 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:59.800 up the climate Wars origin story. 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:55.360 Amy. 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:58.640 This fight inside the Liberal Party over nit zero and 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.240 more broadly about hat to respond to climate change, of course, 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.160 is not new. So how far back does it actually go. 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.800 It actually goes back to Keating, so to a Labor 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.800 government in the early nineteen nineties where they came up 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.200 with the no regrets policy. And the no regrets policy 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.240 was happening at the time when the world was trying 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:23.320 to keep emissions to below nineteen eighty eight levels. 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:24.920 So we've blown. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:26.960 Past that, but at the time that was the goal 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.400 and coal Keating and the Labor government said okay, we'll 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.360 take part in this, but only if it doesn't impact 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.319 our agriculture and our coal mining industries, because these are 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.920 the two biggest industries Australia has. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:42.160 The rest of the world. 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.240 Went okay, fair enough, and they gave all sorts of little, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.920 you know, allowances that allow Australia to use things like 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.640 different ways of using the land. So promising not to 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.480 do land clearing, or promising to just keep different areas 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.840 of vegetation going or planting trees could all count to 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.480 Australia not having to cut emissions. Then John Howard is 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.160 elected in nineteen ninety six and he's all like, this 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.000 is brilliant, I can really do something with this, and 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.439 he absolutely dis turbocharged that policy. 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.080 Listeners may remember that the. 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:19.440 Kyoto Treaty was not ratified by the Howard government. That 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.760 pretty much was the world's really big first attempt to 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.720 deal with emissions, and Howard was one of the only 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.560 people to say no to that at the time. I 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.440 mean Russia ratified it before Australia did. He really made 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.160 it a climate culture war, and it was the first 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.920 time that we really saw how politics could derail the 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:47.520 science in such a comprehensive way. Not ratifying Kyoto taught 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.720 an entire generation of Australian politicians in the Liberal Party 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.080 how you can advance your own personal career by not 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.040 actually doing anything on climate, How you can really start 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.960 to build your own personal brand on that and we've 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:02.800 been stuck. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.439 There for the last thirty years and here we are. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:11.400 So if Lee's party doesn't support net zero, does it 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:15.080 make sense for her to walk away from the policy. 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.480 It doesn't make any sense for her to walk away 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.400 from the policy. But it's also not going to save her. 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.400 There is nothing that can be done to save Susan 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:24.439 Lee's leadership. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.360 She does not have authority in the party room. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.920 Because Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton at least had authority 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.800 over the party room, so even though they didn't do anything, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.839 they could still say we are going to keep the 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.240 idea of net zero, and the right of the party 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.160 had to basically just sit there and take their lumps. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.240 Susan Lee does not have that power, and she's now 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.200 in a position where if she keeps any reference to 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.200 net zero, she's going to lose the support of the 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.760 right and they will do everything that they can to 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.199 bring her down. And if she gets rid of all 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:02.160 references to net zero, she loses the support of the moderates. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:06.040 But then she's also very very reliant on polling, and 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.600 we know that the polls continue to go down for 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.200 the Liberal Party because of this sort of stuff. So 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.440 the Liberals went backwards in the last two elections. One 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.560 of the main reasons for that was their lack of 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.040 climate policy. If they get rid of any reference to 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.640 net zero by twenty fifty, or even just net zero, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.560 then they're going to completely collapse in the polls, which 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.040 is when the Right will go Okay, well she's useless 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:31.960 and we're going to get rid of her anyway. There 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.719 is no saving her leadership. It may not be before Christmas, 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.400 but it's not going to be much longer after that. 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.240 And in the broader scheme of things, what does it 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.920 mean if the Liberal Party does officially walk away from 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.560 net zero? What does it do to our politics and 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.079 to the market In. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.280 Terms of Australian policy. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.360 It doesn't actually do a lot because on the numbers 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.520 it is almost impossible I say almost because nothing is, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:01.080 but almost impossible for the Liberal Party to win government 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:01.960 at the next election. 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.240 So we've got labor for at least six years. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.319 That means that our energy transition is well underway by 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.240 the time that the coalition, if it still exists, is 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.080 electorally competitive again. So it doesn't really do anything in 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.359 terms of policy in the short term. It does impact 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.720 on the market and whether or not they feel secure 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.800 about investing in Australia, but it also just keeps the 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.920 climate wars going. So we're not focusing on what the 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.160 Labor government is or isn't doing, and they're pretty much 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.280 just doing the bare minimum. We're not pushing labor to 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.520 follow the science and stop coal and gas mining. We're 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.920 having a conversation again about what the coalition is going 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.960 to do on net zero and it's just it's so 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.880 frustrating because we just seem stuck as a nation at 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.480 this one spot because of this one party that is 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.959 just keeping us held hostage in terms of this conversation 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:01.680 at the same time point that we were thirty years 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.760 ago when John Howard refused to ratify the Kyoto Convention. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.199 And how much longer do you think Susan Lee can 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.439 hold on for? And what do you think this fight 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.040 tells us about the future of the Liver Party itself. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.240 Look, I mean I think they're going to let Susan 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.520 Lee hold on for as long as this mess is 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.520 around because Angus Taylor and it's most likely going to 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.040 be Angus Taylor at this stage. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.520 With Tim Wilson as a deputy. 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.360 They don't want to own the mess, so they're going 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.880 to make Susan Lee stick around for as long as 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.560 they have this fight. Once the mess is sorted out, 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.160 they'll probably keep her around for a little bit longer 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.000 if she capitulates, and all signs are that she will capitulate, 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.080 and then when the polls start tanking, that's when they'll 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:44.719 come out and say, well, we have. 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.400 To do this for the future of the party. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.920 The position the Coalition is in is that because the 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.600 Nationals have capitulated and basically turned into one nation in 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.400 the types of policies that they present in a bid 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.199 to fend off one nation in their electorates, then liberals 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.520 in inner city seats cannot fend off the Greens or 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.640 Independence because the policy, the compromised policies that they've come 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.880 up with, don't work in both areas. And it's an 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:13.800 absolute mess. 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.520 Amy, Thank you so much for your time. 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:19.840 Thank you. 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.160 Seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media. It's 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.600 made by Anigas Basto, Chris Danegate, Daniel James Ruby Jones, 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:44.640 Sarah mcveee, Travis Evans and Zulfet Joan. Our theme music 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.000 is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hergan of Envelope Bordier. 0:14:48.280 --> 0:15:03.560 This has been seven am. Thanks for listening.