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Speaker 1: Approche Production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am Neil the

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Speaker 2: Muscle Cummings and in this episode I speak to Ali

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Speaker 2: and Ipe, advocates at Death Penalty Action, a group fighting

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Speaker 2: executions across America.

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Speaker 3: Everything I believed about the Death Party of the Truth

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Speaker 3: was the opposite. The question I asked is, well, why

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Speaker 3: are you asking me to spend my tax dollars getting

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Speaker 3: your vengeance. Donald Trump became the most executing president since

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Speaker 3: Roosevelt with thirteen executions in six months. They changed their

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Speaker 3: primary method of execution just this year to firing squad,

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Speaker 3: but then they got to build a whole new facility

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Speaker 3: just for firing squad executions, so they got to spend

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Speaker 3: a million dollars in about a year, which is crazy.

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Speaker 2: I just want to thank you all for coming on

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Speaker 2: my podcast because this was when I came across your

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Speaker 2: page on Instagram. It was kind of intriguing, and I've

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Speaker 2: always been intrigued with all this kind of stuff with

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Speaker 2: movies that I've seen and also on the news, and

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Speaker 2: as I've just said before to Elie, like I looked

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Speaker 2: up on Google and I couldn't believe what I came

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Speaker 2: up against with this so I don't know too much

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Speaker 2: about your organization, so that's what I want to know about,

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Speaker 2: and also get into depth about other things too, So

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Speaker 2: if you want to tell me before we get going

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Speaker 2: and everything else, a bit about your your organization, the

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Speaker 2: Death Penalty Action, and then we'll take it from there.

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Speaker 3: So manage it. Bonnoletts and I live in Ohio and

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Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen, we looked around and realized that Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump was about to be inaugurated to his first term

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Speaker 3: as president, and we realized that that meant that there

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Speaker 3: were going to be federal executions. Again, we had not

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Speaker 3: had any federal executions since they were like two thousands

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Speaker 3: when George W. Bush was president. So, you know, we

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Speaker 3: looked around the movement and didn't see any organization that

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Speaker 3: would be ready and able to stand up and provide

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Speaker 3: opposition to that the way we feel it should be done,

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Speaker 3: which is visible and vocal and provide methods mechanisms for

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Speaker 3: activism for anybody who wants to get involved. So that's

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Speaker 3: why we created Death Penalty Action, myself and several other friends,

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Speaker 3: and then it's just grown from there. It very quickly

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Speaker 3: became evident that there was help the kind of help

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Speaker 3: that we can offer organizing and creating events and making

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Speaker 3: sure that there's protests around every execution that was needed

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Speaker 3: at the state level too. In fact, as we were

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Speaker 3: still figuring out how we're going to launch this, the

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Speaker 3: state of Arkansas realized that it's execution drugs we're going

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Speaker 3: to expire, and therefore set eight execution dates to take

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Speaker 3: place over a two week period, over eleven days really

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Speaker 3: to per night on four different nights in order to

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Speaker 3: use up the execution drugs before they expected. And that

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Speaker 3: was in Arkansas. So I called up the director of

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Speaker 3: the Arkansas Coalition to Abolish a Death Play and I said, hey,

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Speaker 3: can we help? Would you like us to come? And

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Speaker 3: she said please. So that became our coming out and

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Speaker 3: we actually launched our organization around within that campaign, and

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Speaker 3: we took on and we're tasked with making sure that

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Speaker 3: there were protests outside the prison and outside the governor's

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Speaker 3: mansion and helping them with all kinds of visibility tools buttons,

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Speaker 3: t shirts, signs. We helped put together a rally and

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Speaker 3: helped gather over two hundred and fifty thousand signatures in

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Speaker 3: a very short period of time that we then walked

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Speaker 3: into the Governor's office, and that was our coming out. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: we kept watching for what was happening with the federal executions.

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Speaker 3: It took them several years. It took them until twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 3: and suddenly Attorney General Barge just sort of announced the

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Speaker 3: execution dates for actually the week of December tenth, Human

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Speaker 3: Rights Day. So we started to build around that, and

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Speaker 3: that got postponed due to legal challenges, but by July

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Speaker 3: the next year they were ready to go, and they

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Speaker 3: had said they ended up doing thirteen executions in the

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Speaker 3: last six months of the first Trump administration, and Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump became the most executing president since Roosevelt with thirteen

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Speaker 3: executions in six months. Roosevelt had sixteen executions over thirteen years,

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Speaker 3: and some of those were spies during World War Two.

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Speaker 3: So in any case, we just kept growing and going

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Speaker 3: and going, and then around those executions that were on

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Speaker 3: December tenth and eleventh, in twenty twenty, suddenly somebody we're

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Speaker 3: still not sure who, tweeted out one of our petitions

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Speaker 3: and literally over the weekend we had grown up to

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Speaker 3: about twenty seven thousand people on our email list, and

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Speaker 3: between December tenth and December fifteenth that expanded over two

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Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand, and by the time the Federal

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Speaker 3: execution SPERID was over, more than a million people had

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Speaker 3: signed our petition, many of whom had joined and our

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Speaker 3: email list and made donations, and that changed our whole world,

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Speaker 3: and that is what created a space where we can

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Speaker 3: actually hire full time people, pay ourselves. My co founder,

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Speaker 3: his name is Scott Langley. He and I were able

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Speaker 3: to for the first time to pay all of our

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Speaker 3: bills and pay ourselves and continue to do the work

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Speaker 3: but on a much more professional level, and we hired

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Speaker 3: more people to help us, and that has created for

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Speaker 3: us the opportunity to be present to every execution, and

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Speaker 3: also it put us on the map in terms of

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Speaker 3: the organizations that function in this world. And now you know,

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Speaker 3: several organizations have had to stop doing this work and

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Speaker 3: even close their doors altogether. We're the only secular, single

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Speaker 3: issue anti death part of the organization in the country

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Speaker 3: that works on a national basis. Most of the others

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Speaker 3: are going to be like state organizations in Florida or

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Speaker 3: Texas or Alabama have their own state group. We work

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Speaker 3: all of them, but we're the only ones doing this

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Speaker 3: work from a seculary point of view, although we are

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Speaker 3: often people of faith coming together around this and sometimes

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Speaker 3: our events sound like a worship service or something like that,

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Speaker 3: although we always take care to make sure it's into faith.

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Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, our focus is

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Speaker 3: no matter how you come to your opposition or the

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Speaker 3: death penalty, there's a space for you within what we're doing,

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Speaker 3: and we're providing stuff that applies to all of us.

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Speaker 3: So somewhere along the way, my friend and colleague here

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Speaker 3: and myself and started volunteering. We started seeing her posting

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Speaker 3: a lot around some of the stuff on our Facebook

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Speaker 3: page and other social media, and she and I got

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Speaker 3: on the phone and talked a little bit. I said,

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Speaker 3: I see what you're doing. Are you're looking for a

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Speaker 3: way to engage with us, And she said yes, and

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Speaker 3: she became a volunteer, and then when we had some money,

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Speaker 3: we started paying her. And I mean I literally said,

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Speaker 3: I mean now I was doing assisted living stuff for

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Speaker 3: people that are medically need since in their homes. And

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Speaker 3: I'd say, well, what were to take for you to

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Speaker 3: be able to do what you're doing with us full time?

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Speaker 3: Or as does that being your job? So we'd have

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Speaker 3: to wait for you to get done with your job

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Speaker 3: and then in school and then be able to do this.

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Speaker 3: And she told me and we made it happen. And

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Speaker 3: Ali has been our communications coordinator ever since.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it's good, congratulations. Can I just ask have you

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Speaker 2: both been against it all your life? Or you've been

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Speaker 2: for it? Because it's like I'm sitting on the wall,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because I see this side

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Speaker 2: of it and then I see that side of it.

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Speaker 1: So I guess when I was very young.

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Speaker 4: I grew up in a very homogeneous, white, very privileged

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Speaker 4: suburb north of Phoenix called Anthem in Arizona, and social

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Speaker 4: issues like this were never really talked about. I didn't

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Speaker 4: really hear about the death penalty or any other social

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Speaker 4: issue until I left Arizona, moved to Texas, and then

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Speaker 4: moved to Oregon. But I remember when I was in

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Speaker 4: third grade, we were learning how to write persuasive essays,

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Speaker 4: and I wrote a pro death penalty, little baby third

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Speaker 4: grade essay. I really don't recall the arguments that I

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Speaker 4: used in it. It was so long ago, but I

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Speaker 4: know at that time I was pro death penalty. But

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Speaker 4: I think it was just because I didn't know any better. Ye,

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Speaker 4: as soon as I left and I started being introduced

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Speaker 4: and exposed to just how problematic our entire criminal legal

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Speaker 4: system was, the just deplorable history of racial violence in

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Speaker 4: this country.

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Speaker 1: That continues to this day. Like there was no way

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Speaker 1: I could before it anymore.

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Speaker 2: Okay, what about you remember? What were you always against the.

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Speaker 3: Four My elast memory about this was watching the news

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Speaker 3: with my dad when I was perhaps twelve or thirteen,

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Speaker 3: and somebody had just been sentenced to death and the

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Speaker 3: TV news was reporting on it, and I remember his saying

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Speaker 3: to my dad, well, because they came back from the

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Speaker 3: courthouse to the anchor man, and he said, but of

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Speaker 3: course they won't kill him for years. And I remember

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Speaker 3: saying to my dad, well, that's wrong. They had to

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Speaker 3: take him out back and shoot him in the morning.

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Speaker 3: That was my gut reaction. And fast forward to once

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Speaker 3: I was out of school, I had the opportunity to

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Speaker 3: go to a meeting of a group called Amnesty International.

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Speaker 3: You probably heard of them. They worked to free prisoners

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Speaker 3: of conscience, people in prison for the belist religion, language,

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Speaker 3: skin color, that sort of thing, identity, who haven't used

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Speaker 3: radivocated violence, And I certainly thought that was cool. I

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Speaker 3: went to the meeting. I hadn't read the Fine Prince.

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Speaker 3: I was surprised when the speaker at that meeting on

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Speaker 3: the campus for Ohio State University was talking about the

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Speaker 3: death penalty, and I argued with her. I said, eye

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Speaker 3: for and I said, this is the United States. We

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Speaker 3: have the best justices to d the world. If that

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Speaker 3: includes the death penalty, fine with me. I'll pull the

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Speaker 3: switch myself. I said that, And how little I knew

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Speaker 3: how wrong I was right. I set out to try

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Speaker 3: to prove those people wrong, and in trying to prove

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Speaker 3: them wrong, I found out how wrong I was. Everything

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Speaker 3: I believed about the death party, the truth was the opposite.

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Speaker 3: I thought we had a system that always gets it right.

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Speaker 3: I thought we had a system that was fair. I

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Speaker 3: thought it costs less to kill them than to keep

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Speaker 3: them alive in prison. And I was mistaken about all

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Speaker 3: of those things. And it was the fact that changed

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Speaker 3: my mind was learning that in Ohio, the state that

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Speaker 3: I live in, and generally across the country, in order

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Speaker 3: to even possibly get the death penalty, you have to

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Speaker 3: kill somebody in a county, a municipal structure that can

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Speaker 3: afford a death party trial. If they can't afford the

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Speaker 3: money it costs to have a trial where somebody's risking death,

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Speaker 3: then it's not possible unless the state puts in extra money.

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Speaker 3: For example, in Ohio, only eligible for state assistance if

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Speaker 3: the crime happens in a state institution. That's the way

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Speaker 3: the state will help, unless they passed special legislation, as

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Speaker 3: they did. There was a massacre one family attacked another

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Speaker 3: over some drug deal on bad or something in Pike County, Ohio,

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Speaker 3: which is all the way down south on the Ohio River.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the most poorest counties in the state,

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Speaker 3: and the state had to pass legislation to create a

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Speaker 3: four million dollar fund for the prosecution of those people.

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Speaker 3: And that whole case has been over now for about

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Speaker 3: a year. And even though they use the death penalty

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Speaker 3: as a threat to get them to plead guilty and

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Speaker 3: avoid a trial, not one of those people ended up

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Speaker 3: getting a death sentence right. So for me, it was

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Speaker 3: the fact that geography matters more. Where the crime happens.

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Speaker 3: What's the budget of the county where the crime happens.

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Speaker 3: Does that prosecutor in that county who was an elected official,

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Speaker 3: Are they even willing to seek a death sentence if

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Speaker 3: they have the budget to do so. So it was

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Speaker 3: that County thing that changed my mind. But then it

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Speaker 3: was meeting people that have been directly touched by this issue.

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Speaker 3: Murderic family members who reject the death penalties, and no

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Speaker 3: amount of killing is going to equal the value of

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Speaker 3: I loved one and I don't want to be putting

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Speaker 3: somebody else's mother through the pain. I count understand you.

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Speaker 3: So victim family members, death row family members, the families

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Speaker 3: of people facing execution, the families of the executed, death

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Speaker 3: row survivors, even people who have been executioners who then

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Speaker 3: leave that work and join our movement. Those are the

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Speaker 3: people that are traumatized by this issue, That are the

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Speaker 3: collateral damage, if you will, of in the aftermath of murder.

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Speaker 3: And it was meeting those types of people and seeing

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Speaker 3: how they stand in opposition to the death penalty. For me,

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Speaker 3: I've never been directly touched by violent crime, so I

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Speaker 3: don't know what it feels like. I always love one

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Speaker 3: to murder, but here are these people who have been

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Speaker 3: sucked into it unwillingly. They didn't ask for it, And

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Speaker 3: I was standing up and saying, this is not what

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Speaker 3: I want as a person touched by this issue. The

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Speaker 3: facts changed my head. The journey and meeting all these

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Speaker 3: people on the journey changed my heart. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So what happens then if a victim's family does approach you,

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Speaker 2: if you're at a rally or whatever. Is that difficult

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Speaker 2: or do they see where you're coming from.

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Speaker 3: It's not typical that at a rally somebody will come

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Speaker 3: up and say, what you're talking about my loved one

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Speaker 3: and I want the death penalty and go to help.

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Speaker 3: If we don't have that kind of encounter, however, you know,

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Speaker 3: we often meet people who say, well, you'd feel different

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Speaker 3: if it happened to you. I affirm that. You know,

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Speaker 3: I can't say how I would feel because it hasn't

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Speaker 3: happened to me. However, let me share with you the

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Speaker 3: story of my friend Bill Pelke, or George Wider, Susanne Bosword,

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Speaker 3: or any number of other folks who are murderic and

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Speaker 3: family members who work with us, to share their stories

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Speaker 3: about how they came from this terrible situation that happened

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Speaker 3: to them. Our board chair is Reverend Charon Mussure. Her

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Speaker 3: mother and two cousins were among those who were murdered

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Speaker 3: by a white supremacist in the Charleston church shooting in

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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen. She has come to forgiveness for him and

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Speaker 3: has been advocating that he not be executed. We don't

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Speaker 3: want to see them free. We don't want to see

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Speaker 3: them not held accountable. But we don't think that for

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Speaker 3: whatever reason, people come at it from faith. As a

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Speaker 3: victim family member, I don't want to be told I

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Speaker 3: need to wait a couple of decades when they get

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Speaker 3: around of killing the person before I can have my healing.

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Speaker 3: That's one of the challenges. So when somebody comes at

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Speaker 3: me and says I support the death penalty, I've learned

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Speaker 3: that the best response is to acknowledge that and then

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Speaker 3: start asking questions, how do you feel why do you

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Speaker 3: feel this way? Invariably, when you say why do you

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Speaker 3: feel this way, they'll tell you something that gives you

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to plan to see of doubt about where

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Speaker 3: they're coming from. Unless the desire is purely vengeance. Okay,

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Speaker 3: But even then the question I ask is, well, why

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Speaker 3: are you asking me, as a taxpayer, just pending my

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Speaker 3: tax dollars getting your vengeance? Why is that fair? Especially

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Speaker 3: if fewer than one percent of the people who commit murder,

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Speaker 3: who are caught, who are death eligible where they seek

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Speaker 3: a death sentence, where they win a conviction, and a

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Speaker 3: death sentence where it goes all the way to the

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Speaker 3: point of execution. That's fewer than one percent of the

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Speaker 3: people who are death eligible. So not all murders can

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Speaker 3: be punishable by death, but when you get to those,

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Speaker 3: that can be fewer than one percent. If the balm

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Speaker 3: for the wounds of victim families is an execution, why

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Speaker 3: are we using it in fewer than one percent of

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Speaker 3: the cases where we could be And how are we

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Speaker 3: deciding which case? So, why is your loved one more

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Speaker 3: valuable than all these others? And if you can get

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Speaker 3: that far into conversation and help people see that, it's

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Speaker 3: so few people that could be executed that get to

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Speaker 3: the point of execution in the United States, and the

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Speaker 3: way we pick them often has little to do with

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Speaker 3: the severity of the crime and more to do with

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Speaker 3: the money and raise it the victim especially, and the

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Speaker 3: politics of who's the county prosecutor or do they have

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Speaker 3: the budget? All of those things matter more than the

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Speaker 3: severity of the crime. How do we pick and choose

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Speaker 3: why the killer of your loved one and not the

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Speaker 3: killer of these other ninety nine people's loved ones. That's

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Speaker 3: where people can begin to question, do we really need this?

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Speaker 3: Are we being fair? You know? Carved into the face

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Speaker 3: of the US Supreme Court building other words equal justice

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Speaker 3: under law, And anybody that's ever encountered the criminal or

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Speaker 3: civil legal system in this country, probably in every country,

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Speaker 3: knows the thing that matters most is how much money

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Speaker 3: you have in your pocket walking into the courthouse, because

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Speaker 3: if you can hire the right attorneys or grease the

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Speaker 3: right palms, then your justice is different than that of

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Speaker 3: people who don't have money. See.

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Speaker 2: I was always been an eye for an eye. If

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Speaker 2: someone's going to kill somebody, then I've always done it,

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Speaker 2: same with pedophiles. But I do agree with the fact

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Speaker 2: that if you're going to go on death row, then

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't be on there for you know, six a years.

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Speaker 3: Six or eight years. That's nothing. We're executing people. We've

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Speaker 3: been there for thirty forty The guidage schedule to be

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Speaker 3: executed on June twenty fifth, that was sentenced to death

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Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy six. Wow, he's been there almost fifty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's Anthony Floyd. Is that Anthony Floyd? The next

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Speaker 2: one is scheduled?

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Speaker 1: No, Richard Jordan.

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Speaker 2: I looked up and it said Anthony Floyd Waynewright.

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Speaker 3: He's one of the next to be executed. Yes, Anthony

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Speaker 3: Waynwright and also Gregory Hunt, both on June tenth, just

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Speaker 3: one hour apart from each other. And first Waynewright in

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Speaker 3: Florida and then an hour later Hunt in Alabama. But

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Speaker 3: now this guy is Richard Jordan and Mississippi is scheduled

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Speaker 3: to be killed on June twenty fifth, Wow, with three

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Speaker 3: other people in between those first two that I mentioned.

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Speaker 3: So we have in June one, two, three, four, five,

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Speaker 3: six execution scheduled.

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Speaker 2: So them's out of them six? Would they all go

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Speaker 2: through or would they be stopped last minute? How would

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Speaker 2: that go?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? It really depends the issues in case.

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Speaker 4: But what we have been seeing, especially the last several years,

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Speaker 4: is that the US Supreme Court, the way it's been

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Speaker 4: restructured under Donald Trump during his first term, it has

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Speaker 4: greased the rails into the execution chamber where there is

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Speaker 4: almost nothing that will stop these executions, no matter how

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Speaker 4: important the issues in the case are, No matter the

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Speaker 4: competency of their attorneys. They can have the best attorneys

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Speaker 4: right now, and those executions it's possible in many cases

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Speaker 4: that they will still go through.

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Speaker 3: Basically, when you get to a point where they said

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Speaker 3: a date, usually that's it. And part of the problem,

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Speaker 3: as Ali was saying, is the courts have basically set

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Speaker 3: up procedural bars. So if you have any issues to

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Speaker 3: raise in the case, by this point, it's too late.

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Speaker 3: It's just prohibited because we've missed the mark, the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to raise those issues, or they were raised at a

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Speaker 3: time a decade or two ago when all the evidence

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Speaker 3: hadn't been fully developed. And that's the problem. When new

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Speaker 3: ever is developed, even evidence of innocence, it's often too

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Speaker 3: late to bring it in because they're more interested in

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Speaker 3: finality than in accuracy or in making sure all the

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Speaker 3: facts are on the table. We're not lawyers, you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't do litigation work. What we'd end up doing

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Speaker 3: is in some ways hold in the hands of the

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Speaker 3: families that are involved in this. Right now today we're

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Speaker 3: helping raise funds for the funeral of them, and that

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Speaker 3: was executed a few days ago because that family doesn't

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Speaker 3: have enough money and if they can't come up with

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Speaker 3: enough money, he's going to be buried in the prison

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Speaker 3: cemetery rather than have a loving funeral, or they choose.

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Speaker 3: So there's so many different ways we could talk about this,

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Speaker 3: but I can tell you all six of these people

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Speaker 3: scheduled to go in June have nothing in the way

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Speaker 3: of stopping their execution. Which is not to say that

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Speaker 3: their attorneys won't try. But one of the things that

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Speaker 3: started to happen is the courts are actually saying to

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Speaker 3: the attorneys, if you're raising issues that you know are

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Speaker 3: not going to work, that's frivolous and you might be

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Speaker 3: helped and contempt because I'll watch you wasting the court's time,

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Speaker 3: and you have to balance, Okay, how do I represent

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Speaker 3: my client and what novel idea can I try to

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Speaker 3: see if that will stick, if a judge will grant

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Speaker 3: to stay, and even if you do get a judge

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Speaker 3: to say, yes, this person shouldn't be executed, or at

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Speaker 3: least we need to actually evaluate this new evidence. The

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Speaker 3: state then appeals that, and if they get up to

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Speaker 3: the US Supreme Court level, more often than not they'll

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Speaker 3: just throughout the appeal. I think it was something like

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Speaker 3: nineteen of the last twenty three people executed had issues

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Speaker 3: that could be liticated and were not because the court's

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Speaker 3: just refused.

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Speaker 2: Wow, so only six will be done by lethal injection?

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Speaker 3: Correct, no, we are you using that?

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Speaker 4: So the beginning of last year, Alabama became the first

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Speaker 4: state to implement nitrogen suffocation executions. Every single one of

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Speaker 4: those that has happened thus far has been nothing like

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Speaker 4: what the state alleges.

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Speaker 1: They've been nothing short of her horrific.

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Speaker 4: We also have in several states firing squad as a

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Speaker 4: viable method. It's only been used in South Carolina recently.

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Speaker 4: The last firing squad execution until this past year was

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Speaker 4: in Utah fifteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: But we've now had two.

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Speaker 4: Firing squad executions in South Carolina because the guys think

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Speaker 4: that it'll be quicker and less suffering than lethal injection.

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Speaker 4: Of course, many of them do happen by lethal injection.

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Speaker 4: That has been the primary method for the last several years,

400
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Speaker 4: but that is slowly starting to change. Louisiana became the

401
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Speaker 4: second state to implement nitrogen hypoxia. The same day that

402
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Speaker 4: Louisiana carried out their first nitrogen execution, Arkansas authorized it legally,

403
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Speaker 4: so we suspect at some point in the not too

404
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Speaker 4: distant future that we are going to start seeing those

405
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Speaker 4: in Arkansas as well, and a number of states. Electric

406
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Speaker 4: chair is still on the books, although folks are trying to.

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Speaker 1: Not choose that method if at all possible. But that

408
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Speaker 1: is also something that is available in a couple of states.

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Speaker 2: So at the executions, are they still letting family members

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Speaker 2: of the victims watch these or is they kept closed

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Speaker 2: those now?

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Speaker 3: I think in every case the victim family is invited.

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Speaker 3: They not always choose to do so, but they're invited

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Speaker 3: to the execution. I'm not aware of a state where

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Speaker 3: that's not the case. Now the person's attorneys are always

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Speaker 3: able to be present. There is a challenge in Indiana,

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Speaker 3: for example, there was an execution here a few days ago.

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Speaker 3: In Indiana, their second one in fifteen years. They just

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Speaker 3: started executing again in December, and the media is barred

420
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Speaker 3: from them. So victim families do get to watch it.

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Speaker 3: Invariably they come out and say, well, gall what he deserve,

422
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Speaker 3: but it was too easy, and a few days later

423
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Speaker 3: they realize there's still that empty hole. There's always going

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Speaker 3: to be that empty chair at the table. And the

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Speaker 3: family gathers. Maybe they're happy that the person got killed,

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Speaker 3: but it took decades, and why should it take decades

427
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Speaker 3: but a few sentences death by incursor, in other words,

428
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Speaker 3: throw away the key life in prison without the possibility

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Speaker 3: of parole. Then at least you can begin your healing

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Speaker 3: process at that point rather than a couple of decades

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Speaker 3: from now. But just to circle back real quick on

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Speaker 3: your question, June tenth, we have a gas suffocation execution

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Speaker 3: in Alabama and a lethal injection in Florida. Then in

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Speaker 3: June twelfth, we have a lethal injection in Oklahoma. Then

435
00:23:29,761 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 3: June thirteenth, this date was just said in South Carolina

436
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,521
Speaker 3: that prisoner two weeks ahead of his execution on the thirteenth,

437
00:23:37,921 --> 00:23:42,081
Speaker 3: we'll have to choose between the electric chair, lethal injection

438
00:23:42,241 --> 00:23:45,321
Speaker 3: or firing squad. And the last two people in South

439
00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 3: Carolina chose firing squad, and the last one his autopsy

440
00:23:49,201 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: showed that they all missed. Actually the three shooters missed.

441
00:23:53,321 --> 00:23:56,001
Speaker 3: Then you're going back to lethal injection in Florida and

442
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: lethal injection in Mississippi. So those are the upcoming executions.

443
00:24:00,321 --> 00:24:02,961
Speaker 3: I just want to comment also on your statement of

444
00:24:03,001 --> 00:24:05,641
Speaker 3: an eye for an eye. That's what I said. Yeah, life,

445
00:24:05,721 --> 00:24:08,161
Speaker 3: and I too. So if you're gonna and this takes

446
00:24:08,201 --> 00:24:10,321
Speaker 3: us on a bit of a different path, but I'll

447
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,401
Speaker 3: just say this, are you Jewish?

448
00:24:13,001 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: No?

449
00:24:13,961 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 3: Okay? Well, if you're putting your support for the death

450
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 3: penalty on the Hebrew scriptures, then I think it's important

451
00:24:21,681 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 3: to recognize how the only people that actually adhere to

452
00:24:26,521 --> 00:24:29,001
Speaker 3: the Hebrew Scriptures in dictating how they end of their

453
00:24:29,001 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 3: life are Jews for centuries, for millennia, actually for more

454
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,521
Speaker 3: than two thousand years. Basically, Jews are not fundamentalists. We

455
00:24:37,561 --> 00:24:40,001
Speaker 3: don't go by the literal word of the Torah, of

456
00:24:40,041 --> 00:24:42,521
Speaker 3: the five Books of Moses. It's a much bigger thing.

457
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,281
Speaker 3: And basically Jewish law is based on the current rabbinic interpretation,

458
00:24:47,721 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 3: which for over two thousand years has been The death

459
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,321
Speaker 3: penalty exists in Jewish law, but it's not for us

460
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 3: to use it. And in order to assure that, the

461
00:24:56,001 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 3: rabbis have put in place more than two hundred and

462
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: thirty preconditions that must be in place in order to

463
00:25:02,681 --> 00:25:07,281
Speaker 3: have a death sentence and an execution of to Jewish law. Now,

464
00:25:07,481 --> 00:25:10,041
Speaker 3: those are things like, before you commit the crime, you

465
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 3: have to be warned by two different people who are

466
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 3: not related to each other, or the victim or the

467
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,521
Speaker 3: potential killer. If you do this, you might get the

468
00:25:16,521 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 3: death party, and then they have to witness that. You

469
00:25:18,681 --> 00:25:21,561
Speaker 3: have to no idea of being If somebody is capable

470
00:25:21,561 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 3: of warning somebody, then you know, how are they going

471
00:25:24,681 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 3: to allow somebody to go ahead and carry out a murder?

472
00:25:27,921 --> 00:25:30,761
Speaker 3: If you do, then you have to have a conviction

473
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,281
Speaker 3: by a unanimous twenty three rabbi court a sen on

474
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:37,121
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty three rabbis have to be unanimous. Try

475
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,721
Speaker 3: to get twenty three Jews to agree on anything, it's

476
00:25:39,761 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 3: not going to happen. So, I mean, these are just

477
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: a couple of the preconditions more than two hundred and

478
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:47,681
Speaker 3: thirty that have to be in place if you want

479
00:25:47,681 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: to go by the hebrewscriptures. But if you're going to

480
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,201
Speaker 3: pick and choose, I mean, you know, Leviticus nineteen says

481
00:25:52,281 --> 00:25:56,041
Speaker 3: judge your neighbor fairly, do not defer to the wealthy. Well, right,

482
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 3: there sets aside the death party, because we have an

483
00:25:59,201 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 3: unfair system. And it is true that if you have

484
00:26:01,801 --> 00:26:04,681
Speaker 3: more money you get a different level of justice. There's

485
00:26:04,681 --> 00:26:07,561
Speaker 3: all kind of other things in there. I mean, for example,

486
00:26:07,561 --> 00:26:10,161
Speaker 3: if you like to play football, American football, it's made

487
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: with a pig skin, and touching the skin of a

488
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,921
Speaker 3: dead pig is pardiciable by death. Working on the Sabbath

489
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,641
Speaker 3: pardicable by death. Assassing your parents punishable by death, according

490
00:26:21,721 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 3: to the same Hebrew scriptures that say and I for

491
00:26:23,721 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 3: an eye, which by the way, was supposed to be

492
00:26:25,921 --> 00:26:31,401
Speaker 3: a limitation, not equal measure. But take no more than

493
00:26:32,041 --> 00:26:34,121
Speaker 3: an I for an eye, because it used to be

494
00:26:34,441 --> 00:26:36,801
Speaker 3: you kill my loved one, I come back and kill

495
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,561
Speaker 3: your whole family. We're not living in the age of

496
00:26:40,561 --> 00:26:43,161
Speaker 3: that kind of so called justice. And by the way,

497
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,001
Speaker 3: I have to give credit to the Islamic countries are

498
00:26:46,041 --> 00:26:49,241
Speaker 3: using the death penalty. There is a mechanism for victim

499
00:26:49,281 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: families to say I don't want this person killed, and

500
00:26:52,721 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: to forgive them, and to actually have that say adhere to.

501
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 3: In the United States, I mean, they get a choice

502
00:26:58,801 --> 00:27:01,041
Speaker 3: in the town with a talband. If you're the victim family,

503
00:27:01,041 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: you can actually help kill the person. But in the

504
00:27:03,961 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: United States we only give freedence to the victim family

505
00:27:07,201 --> 00:27:11,801
Speaker 3: if it helps the prosecutors desire. If he doesn't, you're

506
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,201
Speaker 3: a bad victim and they don't even help you deal

507
00:27:14,241 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 3: with the issues that you have as a victim family

508
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,041
Speaker 3: member sometimes. So I will say to you this, when

509
00:27:19,041 --> 00:27:20,521
Speaker 3: you say and I for and eye, that it takes

510
00:27:20,561 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: a little bit longer to spell that out. But if

511
00:27:22,801 --> 00:27:25,041
Speaker 3: you've got to base yourself in Hebrews scriptures, then go

512
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: by how the Jewish interpretation is. But if you're a Christian,

513
00:27:29,001 --> 00:27:33,161
Speaker 3: are you a Christian? Yes, okay, then well Jesus said,

514
00:27:33,201 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: you've heard it said and eye for an eye, And

515
00:27:35,321 --> 00:27:38,321
Speaker 3: I tell you different. And let Hugh was without sin

516
00:27:38,441 --> 00:27:41,281
Speaker 3: cast the first stone. And according to what I understand

517
00:27:41,281 --> 00:27:45,321
Speaker 3: about Christianity, you're all born sinners, right, Jesus has died

518
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 3: for your sins. So I think the teachings of Jesus

519
00:27:48,761 --> 00:27:50,761
Speaker 3: are pretty clear. We work very closely with a group

520
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,401
Speaker 3: called Red letter Christians, who you know, in some Bibles

521
00:27:54,481 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: the words of Jesus are written in red letters, and

522
00:27:56,761 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: they want to live by the words of Jesus. And

523
00:28:00,521 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: you know that's the word of Jesus, is that he

524
00:28:03,041 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: was without sin cast the first stone.

525
00:28:05,441 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: I think what I'm trying to get at is the

526
00:28:07,481 --> 00:28:10,361
Speaker 2: fact if someone's going to say someone made us somebody

527
00:28:10,721 --> 00:28:12,561
Speaker 2: and then they're going to go to life in prison.

528
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes people don't mind going to jail. They live happily

529
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,721
Speaker 2: in there. They've got the TV to get the food.

530
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:21,561
Speaker 2: They live in the life, and they are because here,

531
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,761
Speaker 2: I guess I've got some people who've been in prison

532
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,321
Speaker 2: here and they'd rather be in prison in your country.

533
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,321
Speaker 3: Maybe here it's a shithole. I mean, Ali, you want

534
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:34,561
Speaker 3: to talk about prison conditions.

535
00:28:35,961 --> 00:28:40,721
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is nothing easy about prison conditions in this country.

536
00:28:40,801 --> 00:28:42,721
Speaker 1: They are absolutely deplorable.

537
00:28:43,281 --> 00:28:46,641
Speaker 4: Not only the conditions themselves are deplorable, but they are

538
00:28:46,681 --> 00:28:52,041
Speaker 4: severely understaffed, meaning that folks can't even get access to

539
00:28:52,281 --> 00:28:57,441
Speaker 4: very basic necessities, whether it's showers, recreation time. The conditions

540
00:28:57,481 --> 00:29:00,881
Speaker 4: of prisons in the United States also make it such

541
00:29:00,921 --> 00:29:04,681
Speaker 4: that it's not surprising that violence propagates in prison. When

542
00:29:04,721 --> 00:29:09,521
Speaker 4: you make so many people fight for a very finite

543
00:29:09,561 --> 00:29:13,041
Speaker 4: amount of resources. There's a lot of violence in prison,

544
00:29:13,121 --> 00:29:15,121
Speaker 4: and I think that is somewhat by design, but it

545
00:29:15,161 --> 00:29:16,841
Speaker 4: is not surprising that that happens.

546
00:29:17,681 --> 00:29:19,641
Speaker 2: But don't get me wrong, but our prison's here. There's

547
00:29:19,641 --> 00:29:21,561
Speaker 2: a lot of the same here. But the thing is,

548
00:29:21,561 --> 00:29:24,361
Speaker 2: what I'm saying is for a family to see someone

549
00:29:24,361 --> 00:29:27,121
Speaker 2: who's killed their loved one and do life in prison.

550
00:29:27,161 --> 00:29:29,801
Speaker 2: But he's still living, he's still talking, he's still doing

551
00:29:29,841 --> 00:29:32,881
Speaker 2: his thing, and yet he's killed my loved one. That's

552
00:29:32,921 --> 00:29:34,841
Speaker 2: what I would be looking at. You're still in prison,

553
00:29:35,201 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: you're still living your life. Even though you're in prison,

554
00:29:37,481 --> 00:29:39,521
Speaker 2: you're still getting food, you can still see your loved

555
00:29:39,521 --> 00:29:43,081
Speaker 2: ones come and visit you. That's my perspective as trying

556
00:29:43,081 --> 00:29:46,041
Speaker 2: to get, you know, sitting on the fence. But then

557
00:29:46,401 --> 00:29:49,401
Speaker 2: I did look up the situation on Larry Griffin who

558
00:29:49,521 --> 00:29:52,521
Speaker 2: was convicted in eighty one and executed in ninety five,

559
00:29:52,801 --> 00:29:55,641
Speaker 2: and they reckon he was innocent when he was executed.

560
00:29:55,681 --> 00:29:57,681
Speaker 2: So I did look up that I'm trying to look

561
00:29:57,681 --> 00:29:59,881
Speaker 2: at out of the picture what loved ones will be

562
00:29:59,921 --> 00:30:00,601
Speaker 2: saying too.

563
00:30:01,081 --> 00:30:05,281
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about innocence in a moment. But I mean, yes,

564
00:30:05,321 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: you're right. You get to still have some level of

565
00:30:08,561 --> 00:30:12,401
Speaker 3: relationship with people that you know once you're on death row.

566
00:30:13,041 --> 00:30:16,481
Speaker 3: But visits are in many cases behind glass or if

567
00:30:16,481 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 3: you're able to have an in person contact visit, if

568
00:30:19,521 --> 00:30:22,401
Speaker 3: you will mean you can hold hands, you shackle to

569
00:30:22,481 --> 00:30:25,881
Speaker 3: the floor, But in many states the visits are through

570
00:30:25,961 --> 00:30:29,201
Speaker 3: glass and over a telephone or now just you know

571
00:30:29,361 --> 00:30:34,121
Speaker 3: through the internet. But you want to go get your

572
00:30:34,121 --> 00:30:38,121
Speaker 3: favorite sandwich, you got a hankering for a pizza. Forget

573
00:30:38,161 --> 00:30:40,961
Speaker 3: that for the rest of your life. Walk barefoot on grass,

574
00:30:41,561 --> 00:30:44,241
Speaker 3: open a window by yourself, open a door by yourself.

575
00:30:44,241 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: That's not life, that's misery. It's actually worse to have

576
00:30:48,761 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: to live out your life in prison. Even if you

577
00:30:51,521 --> 00:30:54,921
Speaker 3: can have decent food, which it's not decent food, even

578
00:30:54,961 --> 00:30:58,521
Speaker 3: if you can have even conjugal visits, which they don't get.

579
00:30:58,881 --> 00:31:03,401
Speaker 3: It's hell. And especially in southern prisons, they're not even

580
00:31:03,441 --> 00:31:06,321
Speaker 3: air conditioning people living in one hundred and ten one

581
00:31:06,401 --> 00:31:10,121
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty degree environment and the law here says

582
00:31:10,241 --> 00:31:13,721
Speaker 3: anything over eighty five degrees is too hot. And people

583
00:31:13,801 --> 00:31:18,881
Speaker 3: are living and dying every summer in Alabama and Florida

584
00:31:19,001 --> 00:31:23,681
Speaker 3: and Texas and Georgia because of heat exhaustion and heat

585
00:31:24,241 --> 00:31:26,881
Speaker 3: stroke because they don't air condition some of these prisons

586
00:31:27,121 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 3: and it's getting hotter. Life in prison is hell. And

587
00:31:30,601 --> 00:31:33,761
Speaker 3: we have passed bills to abolish the death penalty in

588
00:31:33,761 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: New Jersey, New Mexico, in An, Connecticut, Maryland, Nebraska, New Hampshire,

589
00:31:37,201 --> 00:31:40,481
Speaker 3: Colley out of Virginia, Washington, Delaware. One of the things

590
00:31:40,521 --> 00:31:42,721
Speaker 3: that wins us votes with people who's to think they're

591
00:31:42,841 --> 00:31:45,081
Speaker 3: in favor of the death penalty is helping them see

592
00:31:45,121 --> 00:31:48,001
Speaker 3: that life in prison is worse and these people that's

593
00:31:48,001 --> 00:31:50,161
Speaker 3: what they want is the worst thing. So oh, once

594
00:31:50,201 --> 00:31:52,801
Speaker 3: they come to that realization, they're willing to vote against

595
00:31:52,801 --> 00:31:54,761
Speaker 3: the death parloty because they want it to be worse

596
00:31:55,281 --> 00:31:58,361
Speaker 3: for the prisoners. I don't agree with that. I'll take

597
00:31:58,401 --> 00:32:00,561
Speaker 3: the vote because I'm trying to get rid of the

598
00:32:00,561 --> 00:32:03,401
Speaker 3: death penalty. But I do believe there are some people

599
00:32:03,401 --> 00:32:05,801
Speaker 3: as they presently exist, you should never be free, could

600
00:32:05,801 --> 00:32:08,361
Speaker 3: never be trusted to be free. Doesn't mean they need

601
00:32:08,361 --> 00:32:12,041
Speaker 3: to be held in torturous conditions. But for most of

602
00:32:12,081 --> 00:32:15,121
Speaker 3: the people that commit murder, especially, you know, murder is

603
00:32:15,321 --> 00:32:20,801
Speaker 3: mostly a crime of passion. It's mostly something that's not planned. Therefore,

604
00:32:21,281 --> 00:32:25,281
Speaker 3: it's a crime of circumstances. And if a person has

605
00:32:25,361 --> 00:32:28,681
Speaker 3: their needs met in society, they're not committing crimes like this.

606
00:32:29,321 --> 00:32:32,401
Speaker 3: If we know that there are a threat to go

607
00:32:32,521 --> 00:32:35,761
Speaker 3: down a path on violence because they're addicted or other

608
00:32:35,881 --> 00:32:38,921
Speaker 3: issues around that, we can intervene in their lives beforehand

609
00:32:39,241 --> 00:32:42,681
Speaker 3: if we can catch them in that But Ultimately, what

610
00:32:42,721 --> 00:32:45,161
Speaker 3: we know is that I think most of the people

611
00:32:45,201 --> 00:32:47,321
Speaker 3: who commit murder, who are caught, who get a sentence

612
00:32:47,321 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: of imprisonment, can become productive citizens again after a period

613
00:32:52,481 --> 00:32:56,081
Speaker 3: of time and with help re entering society. And it

614
00:32:56,321 --> 00:32:59,201
Speaker 3: used to be that a life sentence meant you could

615
00:32:59,201 --> 00:33:02,761
Speaker 3: get paroled in fifteen or even ten years, and that

616
00:33:02,881 --> 00:33:04,961
Speaker 3: is no longer the case. If you're facing the death,

617
00:33:05,401 --> 00:33:09,281
Speaker 3: it's either death by incarceration or imprisonment. Either way, it's

618
00:33:09,321 --> 00:33:11,841
Speaker 3: going to suck, it's going to be miserable. You know,

619
00:33:11,961 --> 00:33:16,521
Speaker 3: you give up having any kind of physical relationship with

620
00:33:16,641 --> 00:33:19,601
Speaker 3: somebody that you want to be with. Yeah, sure you

621
00:33:19,681 --> 00:33:22,841
Speaker 3: got baba, Okay, you know, if that's what excites you.

622
00:33:22,921 --> 00:33:25,841
Speaker 3: But I think that that is not the ideal life

623
00:33:25,841 --> 00:33:29,321
Speaker 3: that anybody would want, really had something.

624
00:33:30,441 --> 00:33:33,841
Speaker 4: In terms of talking about prison conditions, we haven't even

625
00:33:34,321 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 4: started to talk about prison abuses and the fact that

626
00:33:38,001 --> 00:33:40,801
Speaker 4: most of the prison guards and wardens are on a

627
00:33:40,841 --> 00:33:43,841
Speaker 4: power trip just like, say it what it is, and

628
00:33:43,881 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 4: they will do nothing, like they will stop at nothing

629
00:33:46,201 --> 00:33:48,921
Speaker 4: in many cases to make these guys' lives as miserable

630
00:33:48,921 --> 00:33:51,921
Speaker 4: as possible because they have been put in this position

631
00:33:52,401 --> 00:33:55,001
Speaker 4: of being told that they are superior to the people

632
00:33:55,041 --> 00:33:58,721
Speaker 4: that they control, and we have seen how that dynamic

633
00:33:58,801 --> 00:34:01,801
Speaker 4: has played out many times throughout history, and it is

634
00:34:01,881 --> 00:34:06,081
Speaker 4: never favorable. This can result in not just physical violence,

635
00:34:06,241 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: like I've had guys that have had their shoulders dislocated

636
00:34:09,721 --> 00:34:12,801
Speaker 4: for literally doing nothing because they're slammed on the floor,

637
00:34:12,841 --> 00:34:15,601
Speaker 4: their arms are shoved behind their back. I've had people

638
00:34:15,601 --> 00:34:18,961
Speaker 4: that have almost died from smoke inhalation because fires have

639
00:34:19,041 --> 00:34:22,641
Speaker 4: been started in cells nearby to them, and prison officials

640
00:34:22,641 --> 00:34:24,041
Speaker 4: have refused to intervene.

641
00:34:24,161 --> 00:34:25,361
Speaker 1: And these are people who are.

642
00:34:25,241 --> 00:34:28,881
Speaker 4: In solitary cells that can't just walk down the hallway

643
00:34:28,921 --> 00:34:32,161
Speaker 4: to get away from the fire. Prison is a hugely

644
00:34:32,201 --> 00:34:36,081
Speaker 4: traumatizing place, not just because of this dynamic between prison

645
00:34:36,121 --> 00:34:39,841
Speaker 4: officials and prisoners, but the fact that most people who

646
00:34:39,841 --> 00:34:43,481
Speaker 4: go to prison abe touched on this. They come from

647
00:34:43,721 --> 00:34:46,601
Speaker 4: spaces where their needs haven't been met. They have brain damage,

648
00:34:46,601 --> 00:34:49,761
Speaker 4: they have faced terrific abuse and violence, and now they're

649
00:34:49,761 --> 00:34:54,281
Speaker 4: being put in a position mentally ill, brain damage, intellectually

650
00:34:54,321 --> 00:34:57,801
Speaker 4: disabled where they have to fend for themselves. Some of

651
00:34:57,801 --> 00:35:00,161
Speaker 4: them don't even know right from left, up from down,

652
00:35:00,201 --> 00:35:03,801
Speaker 4: whether it's morning or night. Of course, their needs go unmet,

653
00:35:04,001 --> 00:35:07,241
Speaker 4: and they are propagating for many years. Even if somebody

654
00:35:07,321 --> 00:35:11,041
Speaker 4: gets out of prison, whether they're wrongfully convicted or maybe

655
00:35:11,081 --> 00:35:14,801
Speaker 4: they've just served their full sentence. And this is especially

656
00:35:14,841 --> 00:35:16,641
Speaker 4: true for folks on death threat. When they get out

657
00:35:16,681 --> 00:35:21,201
Speaker 4: of prison after serving any significant length of time, they

658
00:35:21,961 --> 00:35:26,681
Speaker 4: don't usually live very long past their release because for

659
00:35:26,921 --> 00:35:29,801
Speaker 4: years the trauma has weighed on them, and we know

660
00:35:29,921 --> 00:35:33,881
Speaker 4: that that is horrible for long term health and mortality.

661
00:35:34,441 --> 00:35:37,921
Speaker 1: Many of them have been exposed to asbestos.

662
00:35:37,321 --> 00:35:40,961
Speaker 4: And other chemicals, many of them develop cancer, many of

663
00:35:41,001 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: them develop trauma related or trauma induced dementia and other

664
00:35:46,561 --> 00:35:50,761
Speaker 4: cognitive decline. Even if they're like if they're in prison

665
00:35:50,801 --> 00:35:54,281
Speaker 4: for any length of time, I mean, that shortens their life.

666
00:35:54,361 --> 00:35:57,521
Speaker 4: That it's not just they're in prison now and they

667
00:35:57,521 --> 00:36:00,161
Speaker 4: get out and they're fine. No, they're never going to

668
00:36:00,201 --> 00:36:02,641
Speaker 4: be the same again, and it is going to impact

669
00:36:02,641 --> 00:36:04,081
Speaker 4: them for the rest of their life.

670
00:36:04,201 --> 00:36:06,561
Speaker 2: A lot of the prison over there are they privately

671
00:36:06,561 --> 00:36:07,601
Speaker 2: owned or government.

672
00:36:07,321 --> 00:36:11,401
Speaker 3: Phone not the death row prisons. Okay, but yes we have.

673
00:36:11,481 --> 00:36:13,241
Speaker 3: I mean, as one of the things that happened here

674
00:36:13,281 --> 00:36:16,601
Speaker 3: when Donald Trump kind oflected and started rounding up immigrants

675
00:36:17,081 --> 00:36:20,041
Speaker 3: is all the private prison stock shot up through the roof,

676
00:36:20,201 --> 00:36:25,561
Speaker 3: and that's who's getting those contracts. But generally capital cases,

677
00:36:25,881 --> 00:36:27,641
Speaker 3: people on death row, those are going to be in

678
00:36:27,721 --> 00:36:28,641
Speaker 3: state facilities.

679
00:36:28,961 --> 00:36:31,681
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So going back to you're going to

680
00:36:31,721 --> 00:36:34,241
Speaker 2: bring up the innocence in a lot of this, And

681
00:36:34,361 --> 00:36:36,801
Speaker 2: as I said, I read up about Lorry Griffin. Tell

682
00:36:36,841 --> 00:36:38,881
Speaker 2: me a bit about that when you come across it.

683
00:36:39,561 --> 00:36:42,361
Speaker 3: Well, I remember the name Larry Griffin. That's an old

684
00:36:42,481 --> 00:36:47,321
Speaker 3: case to date and really the best place for facts

685
00:36:47,321 --> 00:36:50,241
Speaker 3: and figures in all these issues. We don't even keep

686
00:36:50,281 --> 00:36:53,641
Speaker 3: facts and figures ourselves. We point people to the Death

687
00:36:53,681 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 3: Party Information Center death palty info dot org. Their job

688
00:36:58,001 --> 00:37:00,201
Speaker 3: is keeping track of all the facts and figures, but

689
00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:02,961
Speaker 3: they are also the keeper of the official list of

690
00:37:03,001 --> 00:37:05,641
Speaker 3: people exonerated and freed from death row because they were

691
00:37:05,681 --> 00:37:08,721
Speaker 3: innocent or at least because their convictions were thrown out.

692
00:37:09,281 --> 00:37:11,961
Speaker 3: That number right now is two hundred people since nineteen

693
00:37:12,041 --> 00:37:16,121
Speaker 3: seventy two. One hundred and ninety nine freed one died

694
00:37:16,161 --> 00:37:20,321
Speaker 3: in prison before he was exonerated. So you have those,

695
00:37:20,361 --> 00:37:22,601
Speaker 3: and then on top of those, you also have people

696
00:37:22,641 --> 00:37:25,161
Speaker 3: that took a plea to a lesser offense. In other words,

697
00:37:25,201 --> 00:37:28,841
Speaker 3: they're conviction and death sentence were thrown out. Prosecutors as

698
00:37:28,881 --> 00:37:32,281
Speaker 3: a face saving move, say well, we're going to retry you,

699
00:37:32,361 --> 00:37:34,641
Speaker 3: and that could be a couple of year process, or

700
00:37:35,001 --> 00:37:37,521
Speaker 3: there's the door and if you plead guilty to this

701
00:37:37,681 --> 00:37:41,361
Speaker 3: lesser offense, we'll let you go on time served and

702
00:37:41,401 --> 00:37:44,881
Speaker 3: you can leave today, and you know, if you're looking

703
00:37:44,921 --> 00:37:47,801
Speaker 3: at that and there's your family waiting for you outside,

704
00:37:48,041 --> 00:37:50,401
Speaker 3: or another couple of years before you might get out.

705
00:37:50,721 --> 00:37:53,881
Speaker 3: Some people do choose to take that plea, and sometimes

706
00:37:53,881 --> 00:37:56,081
Speaker 3: that's all the option that they have, is to take

707
00:37:56,081 --> 00:37:59,001
Speaker 3: a plea or a lesser offense be released on time served,

708
00:37:59,441 --> 00:38:01,561
Speaker 3: and then when that happens, then they still have the

709
00:38:01,561 --> 00:38:04,761
Speaker 3: faulty conviction of whatever it is that they agreed to

710
00:38:04,801 --> 00:38:08,641
Speaker 3: please to and then there's no support or assistance or

711
00:38:08,721 --> 00:38:12,961
Speaker 3: compensation for them. In different states have different mechanisms of

712
00:38:13,281 --> 00:38:17,761
Speaker 3: compensating people who they wrongly convict, but in more than

713
00:38:17,801 --> 00:38:20,321
Speaker 3: half the cases they don't get anything, at least they

714
00:38:20,321 --> 00:38:25,161
Speaker 3: haven't so far. So that's a reality. Is Wrongful convictions

715
00:38:25,241 --> 00:38:28,201
Speaker 3: is a reality. It's not always the case. There's some

716
00:38:28,241 --> 00:38:31,241
Speaker 3: people that put the number of people that are wrongfully

717
00:38:31,241 --> 00:38:34,321
Speaker 3: convicted on death row and as high as four percent.

718
00:38:35,201 --> 00:38:38,721
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's accurate or not in terms

719
00:38:38,761 --> 00:38:41,921
Speaker 3: of who's currently on death row, but I do know

720
00:38:42,001 --> 00:38:45,401
Speaker 3: that there's a number of cases right now of people

721
00:38:45,561 --> 00:38:49,401
Speaker 3: who they know that they're innocent, and yet the process

722
00:38:50,241 --> 00:38:53,241
Speaker 3: makes it impossible to get them freed. Anthony A. Panovitch,

723
00:38:53,281 --> 00:38:56,921
Speaker 3: who's on Ohio's death row, his conviction was thrown out

724
00:38:57,201 --> 00:39:02,201
Speaker 3: because of a DNA evidence that somebody else committed the rape. Well,

725
00:39:02,241 --> 00:39:05,921
Speaker 3: if somebody else raped and Marie Flynn, then and it

726
00:39:06,001 --> 00:39:08,881
Speaker 3: wasn't Anthony that did that, and if he didn't do

727
00:39:08,921 --> 00:39:12,321
Speaker 3: the rape, he didn't do the murder. Okay. What happened

728
00:39:12,441 --> 00:39:17,321
Speaker 3: was the state had asked for DNA somebody and then

729
00:39:17,481 --> 00:39:20,801
Speaker 3: it didn't meet their case needs, so they didn't use it.

730
00:39:20,801 --> 00:39:24,561
Speaker 3: But they also didn't disclose it to the defense. And

731
00:39:24,601 --> 00:39:27,001
Speaker 3: then a decade later somebody found it and said, oh

732
00:39:27,001 --> 00:39:28,921
Speaker 3: my gosh, we should have given us to the defense.

733
00:39:29,121 --> 00:39:32,721
Speaker 3: They faxed it over and the defense Tony's lawyers got

734
00:39:32,721 --> 00:39:35,161
Speaker 3: that and they're like, oh my gosh, that says he's innocent,

735
00:39:35,641 --> 00:39:38,521
Speaker 3: and they pursued that and a court threw out his

736
00:39:38,641 --> 00:39:42,321
Speaker 3: conviction and his death sentence and the state said, well, judge,

737
00:39:42,361 --> 00:39:44,641
Speaker 3: we want to hold him because we're going to try

738
00:39:44,681 --> 00:39:47,921
Speaker 3: him again, and the judge said no and released him

739
00:39:47,961 --> 00:39:51,161
Speaker 3: with an ankle monitor. Understand that they were going to

740
00:39:51,161 --> 00:39:52,681
Speaker 3: bring him back when they were ready to take it

741
00:39:52,801 --> 00:39:56,081
Speaker 3: to trial again. Well, the state instead appealed the judges

742
00:39:56,201 --> 00:40:01,241
Speaker 3: ruling and because he didn't ask for the DNA, he's

743
00:40:01,281 --> 00:40:04,921
Speaker 3: not eligible to use it under Ohio law. That squas

744
00:40:05,321 --> 00:40:09,001
Speaker 3: the judge is ruling. And therefore, because that was overturned,

745
00:40:09,041 --> 00:40:11,481
Speaker 3: it was as if his death sentence was still in existence,

746
00:40:12,281 --> 00:40:16,441
Speaker 3: and they came in got him the next morning. It

747
00:40:16,481 --> 00:40:18,401
Speaker 3: was a Friday morning. I'll never forget this because the

748
00:40:18,441 --> 00:40:21,361
Speaker 3: lawyers called me on Thursday and said, hey, Tony's case

749
00:40:21,481 --> 00:40:25,761
Speaker 3: just got reversed back to a death sentence. I called him,

750
00:40:25,801 --> 00:40:27,481
Speaker 3: I said, what's going to happen? He said, I don't know.

751
00:40:27,521 --> 00:40:30,001
Speaker 3: The next morning they came and they took him and

752
00:40:30,081 --> 00:40:33,281
Speaker 3: there was an evidence here hearing in Cuyahoga County, which

753
00:40:33,281 --> 00:40:36,241
Speaker 3: was Cleveland, Ohio, by Lake Erie. Over the weekend, they

754
00:40:36,241 --> 00:40:38,561
Speaker 3: had transferred him all the way back onto death row

755
00:40:38,881 --> 00:40:42,321
Speaker 3: in a town called Chili Coffee in south central Ohio,

756
00:40:42,841 --> 00:40:46,521
Speaker 3: a good three hour drive from Cleveland, they already had

757
00:40:46,561 --> 00:40:48,841
Speaker 3: him on death throw. The judge was furious when he said,

758
00:40:48,841 --> 00:40:51,521
Speaker 3: where's mister Apanovage, you know, and they said, Judge, he's

759
00:40:51,561 --> 00:40:53,601
Speaker 3: back on death row. He made them bring him all

760
00:40:53,601 --> 00:40:55,961
Speaker 3: the way back up to Cleveland, and it was a

761
00:40:55,961 --> 00:40:58,841
Speaker 3: couple of months of process, and then his hands were

762
00:40:58,841 --> 00:41:00,761
Speaker 3: tired and he had to send Tony back to death row.

763
00:41:00,961 --> 00:41:04,281
Speaker 3: And that's where Tony sits today. It's been thirty seven

764
00:41:04,361 --> 00:41:07,401
Speaker 3: years now, but for two of those years he was

765
00:41:07,521 --> 00:41:11,401
Speaker 3: out living with his girlfriend and her children and being

766
00:41:11,401 --> 00:41:15,241
Speaker 3: a productive member of that family. Still on an ankle minor,

767
00:41:15,321 --> 00:41:18,441
Speaker 3: he couldn't leave his house without permission from the pro officer.

768
00:41:18,761 --> 00:41:23,601
Speaker 3: But we know he's innocent. Melissa Lucio was facing execution

769
00:41:23,801 --> 00:41:27,641
Speaker 3: three years ago. In April, she was two days from execution.

770
00:41:27,801 --> 00:41:30,801
Speaker 3: We ran a campaign on her behalf. A movie was

771
00:41:30,881 --> 00:41:35,161
Speaker 3: made by Sabrina van Tassel, an award winning French documentary maker.

772
00:41:35,521 --> 00:41:39,161
Speaker 3: She made this film that basically exposes why no crime

773
00:41:39,241 --> 00:41:42,521
Speaker 3: actually occurred in that case. One of Melissa's children was

774
00:41:42,561 --> 00:41:45,241
Speaker 3: fell down to fly. The stairs may have been pushed

775
00:41:45,601 --> 00:41:48,961
Speaker 3: by a sibling, but it certainly wasn't Melissa. There's no

776
00:41:49,001 --> 00:41:52,241
Speaker 3: evidence he was ever abusive. She was not a great mother,

777
00:41:52,321 --> 00:41:55,041
Speaker 3: and she had some addiction issues, but nobody ever said

778
00:41:55,041 --> 00:41:58,201
Speaker 3: she abused her children. When Mariah died and they did

779
00:41:58,201 --> 00:42:00,561
Speaker 3: an aaftops since she was covered with bruises, they said

780
00:42:00,561 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 3: that must be child abuse. And they you know, here's

781
00:42:04,481 --> 00:42:10,801
Speaker 3: Melissa being interrogated overnight without pregnant with twins, and eventually

782
00:42:10,841 --> 00:42:13,681
Speaker 3: she said I must have hit her, and that was

783
00:42:13,841 --> 00:42:16,761
Speaker 3: enough for them to convict her. Turns out there was

784
00:42:16,801 --> 00:42:20,641
Speaker 3: no crime. Within two days of being executed, the Texas

785
00:42:20,641 --> 00:42:24,241
Speaker 3: Court of Criminal Appeals ordered a stay to the execution

786
00:42:24,441 --> 00:42:28,041
Speaker 3: and evidentiary hearing, which put the case back at the

787
00:42:28,041 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: County court in Cameron County, Texas. The Cameron County Prosecutor,

788
00:42:33,041 --> 00:42:36,721
Speaker 3: Lewis Sions, finally started looking at the evidence and realized

789
00:42:36,761 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: that they had withheld evidence from her at the time

790
00:42:39,441 --> 00:42:41,521
Speaker 3: of the trial that would have helped to quit her

791
00:42:41,521 --> 00:42:44,801
Speaker 3: in the first place, and he signed an order with

792
00:42:44,881 --> 00:42:49,161
Speaker 3: the defense in December of twenty twenty two saying that

793
00:42:49,241 --> 00:42:51,841
Speaker 3: her conviction should be thrown out, and he got sick

794
00:42:51,881 --> 00:42:56,921
Speaker 3: of waiting sixteen months later when nothing had still happened,

795
00:42:57,041 --> 00:43:00,001
Speaker 3: and he released that draft order to the media, so

796
00:43:00,041 --> 00:43:02,521
Speaker 3: they changed the judge. Who do they change it to?

797
00:43:02,961 --> 00:43:04,961
Speaker 3: Turned out they changed it to the judge who act

798
00:43:05,361 --> 00:43:08,641
Speaker 3: sentenced her to death, and within two days you have

799
00:43:08,721 --> 00:43:11,361
Speaker 3: this order signed by the prosecutor and the judge who

800
00:43:11,361 --> 00:43:14,521
Speaker 3: sends her to death saying her conviction should be thrown

801
00:43:14,521 --> 00:43:17,081
Speaker 3: out and she should be brought back and we should

802
00:43:17,281 --> 00:43:20,161
Speaker 3: let her go. Those are my paraphrase of it, but

803
00:43:20,201 --> 00:43:23,761
Speaker 3: that's essentially what it means. And here we are. She

804
00:43:23,961 --> 00:43:27,641
Speaker 3: is still on death row in Texas to day, right

805
00:43:27,681 --> 00:43:31,041
Speaker 3: now as we speak, and she should have been freed

806
00:43:31,361 --> 00:43:35,441
Speaker 3: not later than December of twenty twenty two. They know

807
00:43:35,681 --> 00:43:38,641
Speaker 3: she's innocent. The prosecutor says she's innocent, The judge who

808
00:43:38,681 --> 00:43:41,001
Speaker 3: sends her to death says she's innocent. She's still on

809
00:43:41,041 --> 00:43:44,161
Speaker 3: death throw. And there's a couple dozen more cases like

810
00:43:44,201 --> 00:43:46,721
Speaker 3: this that we know of that we can talk about.

811
00:43:47,081 --> 00:43:53,121
Speaker 3: If not actual innocence, then severe significant demonstrable doubt about

812
00:43:53,241 --> 00:43:56,601
Speaker 3: their guilt. Rodney Reid Ali can probably rally off it,

813
00:43:56,761 --> 00:43:58,401
Speaker 3: rite off a bunch of names out. We've got a

814
00:43:58,401 --> 00:44:00,801
Speaker 3: homeless of them on our web page, people that have

815
00:44:01,001 --> 00:44:03,481
Speaker 3: real issues. It could be raised, and he can't raise

816
00:44:03,521 --> 00:44:07,561
Speaker 3: them because of procedural bars because of whatever BS is happening.

817
00:44:07,841 --> 00:44:10,361
Speaker 2: When was the When was the last female actually executed?

818
00:44:11,161 --> 00:44:16,481
Speaker 3: And I think that's Amber McLoughlin, who transgender woman in

819
00:44:16,801 --> 00:44:20,281
Speaker 3: Missouri and prior to that, do you have that year?

820
00:44:20,401 --> 00:44:21,281
Speaker 1: Lisa Montgomery?

821
00:44:21,561 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: Of course, Lisa Montgomery was executed in the final week

822
00:44:25,041 --> 00:44:25,761
Speaker 4: of Donald.

823
00:44:25,521 --> 00:44:27,161
Speaker 1: Trump's executions free.

824
00:44:27,601 --> 00:44:31,561
Speaker 4: She was a severely mentally ill with schizophrenia. She endured

825
00:44:31,921 --> 00:44:34,801
Speaker 4: some of the worst sexual violence you could ever go

826
00:44:34,881 --> 00:44:35,761
Speaker 4: through as a child.

827
00:44:36,081 --> 00:44:39,641
Speaker 1: She was trafficked by her family. So she was held

828
00:44:39,761 --> 00:44:41,361
Speaker 1: in a women's.

829
00:44:40,961 --> 00:44:45,601
Speaker 4: Psychiatric prison in Texas before they transferred her to the

830
00:44:45,721 --> 00:44:49,521
Speaker 4: US Penitentiary in Terre Haute, Indiana, where federal executions are

831
00:44:49,521 --> 00:44:53,721
Speaker 4: carried out. And so she was executed on January twelfth

832
00:44:53,721 --> 00:44:55,201
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one.

833
00:44:55,441 --> 00:44:59,441
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, is it true that at the moment fifty

834
00:44:59,481 --> 00:45:03,481
Speaker 2: seventh scheduled for twenty twenty five executions?

835
00:45:03,801 --> 00:45:07,081
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, So we only list dates that we consider

836
00:45:07,161 --> 00:45:10,041
Speaker 3: to be real dates like it's going to happen right now. Yeah,

837
00:45:10,041 --> 00:45:14,161
Speaker 3: that's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight nine,

838
00:45:14,281 --> 00:45:16,641
Speaker 3: right now. We just got a new one in Florida

839
00:45:16,881 --> 00:45:19,841
Speaker 3: the other day. More dates are said on a regular basis.

840
00:45:21,041 --> 00:45:22,881
Speaker 3: That's just in twenty twenty five. But then there are

841
00:45:22,961 --> 00:45:25,721
Speaker 3: dates like you know where governors have said we're not

842
00:45:25,721 --> 00:45:28,681
Speaker 3: carrying out executions, but yet the process at state. So

843
00:45:28,841 --> 00:45:33,001
Speaker 3: for example, in Ohio, you have more than thirty pending

844
00:45:33,081 --> 00:45:37,161
Speaker 3: execution dates. But Governor Dewined in Ohio a Republican, but

845
00:45:37,241 --> 00:45:42,281
Speaker 3: a consistently pro life Republican, keeps reprieving people as their

846
00:45:42,321 --> 00:45:44,161
Speaker 3: dates come up, and they'll kick them back to the

847
00:45:44,241 --> 00:45:47,321
Speaker 3: end of the line. And we're working to try to

848
00:45:47,361 --> 00:45:50,281
Speaker 3: get him to commute all of the death sentences to

849
00:45:50,321 --> 00:45:53,841
Speaker 3: life without parole before he leaves office, and he'll run

850
00:45:53,841 --> 00:45:55,801
Speaker 3: out of his time in office and somebody else will

851
00:45:55,841 --> 00:45:59,241
Speaker 3: be governor, and depending on who that is, Ohio might

852
00:45:59,321 --> 00:46:03,321
Speaker 3: resume executions. So we have legislation actually to abolish enough

853
00:46:03,401 --> 00:46:07,721
Speaker 3: party in Ohio, which is possible even with Republicans in

854
00:46:07,801 --> 00:46:10,761
Speaker 3: charge across the board, just because of the relationships that

855
00:46:10,761 --> 00:46:13,161
Speaker 3: we've built in the conversations that are being had. The

856
00:46:13,241 --> 00:46:16,761
Speaker 3: problem is it becomes like a bargaining chip you throw

857
00:46:16,841 --> 00:46:20,081
Speaker 3: on the table with somebody or not, as the case

858
00:46:20,121 --> 00:46:22,881
Speaker 3: may be. But in any case that's so. The reality

859
00:46:22,961 --> 00:46:25,641
Speaker 3: is that there might be a couple dozen execution dates

860
00:46:25,681 --> 00:46:30,321
Speaker 3: that are on some other calendars, but on our web

861
00:46:30,361 --> 00:46:32,721
Speaker 3: page we only list the dates that we think are real.

862
00:46:32,841 --> 00:46:34,081
Speaker 3: So that's what we have right now.

863
00:46:35,561 --> 00:46:38,801
Speaker 2: Is it the main states that do the death penalty?

864
00:46:38,961 --> 00:46:41,681
Speaker 2: Is it that Oklahoma, Texas, and Missouri? Are they the

865
00:46:41,721 --> 00:46:42,921
Speaker 2: main states?

866
00:46:43,321 --> 00:46:46,681
Speaker 3: Florida is now doing them every two to three weeks. Wow,

867
00:46:47,401 --> 00:46:52,761
Speaker 3: Alabama is doing them with regularity. South Carolina is almost

868
00:46:52,801 --> 00:46:55,241
Speaker 3: out of people that are that have a death warn't

869
00:46:55,401 --> 00:46:57,241
Speaker 3: how much more. They've got a couple dozen people on

870
00:46:57,281 --> 00:46:59,641
Speaker 3: death row, I think, but we knew that they were

871
00:46:59,681 --> 00:47:01,801
Speaker 3: going to there were five or six people that were

872
00:47:01,841 --> 00:47:06,001
Speaker 3: ready to be executed. Texas is setting dates on regular basis,

873
00:47:06,401 --> 00:47:09,241
Speaker 3: so we could see North Carolina start back up, but

874
00:47:09,401 --> 00:47:12,041
Speaker 3: that's probably not going to happen. Tennessee just got started

875
00:47:12,321 --> 00:47:14,921
Speaker 3: and they're going to be going on a regular basis too,

876
00:47:15,281 --> 00:47:18,601
Speaker 3: probably not more than four a year. They announced four

877
00:47:18,681 --> 00:47:20,961
Speaker 3: dates for this year. One of the person's date was

878
00:47:21,001 --> 00:47:25,081
Speaker 3: already taken away, but there's three others. Louisiana, they tried

879
00:47:25,121 --> 00:47:27,441
Speaker 3: to set a bunch of dates and then realize that

880
00:47:27,521 --> 00:47:31,841
Speaker 3: those people hadn't finished their legal processes. But there's actually

881
00:47:31,841 --> 00:47:35,041
Speaker 3: a whole list of people who have exhausted their appeals

882
00:47:35,081 --> 00:47:37,761
Speaker 3: and are ready for a death warrant, and others that

883
00:47:37,841 --> 00:47:40,161
Speaker 3: are just in process. So you're going to see more

884
00:47:40,161 --> 00:47:44,641
Speaker 3: in Missouri, Indiana. Idaho wants to execute a couple of

885
00:47:44,681 --> 00:47:46,801
Speaker 3: people right away. They only got a handful of people

886
00:47:46,841 --> 00:47:49,641
Speaker 3: on death row. Utah also, but they're not all through

887
00:47:49,681 --> 00:47:52,961
Speaker 3: the process, and those that are. In Idaho, they figured

888
00:47:52,961 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 3: out that they can't manage a lethal injection, so they

889
00:47:55,641 --> 00:47:58,961
Speaker 3: changed their primary method of execution just this year to

890
00:47:59,521 --> 00:48:03,281
Speaker 3: firing squad. But then, rather than just set up a

891
00:48:03,321 --> 00:48:05,841
Speaker 3: chair in a field and take care of it, they

892
00:48:05,921 --> 00:48:08,361
Speaker 3: got to build a whole new facility just for firing

893
00:48:08,401 --> 00:48:11,361
Speaker 3: squad executions. So they got to spend a million dollars

894
00:48:11,521 --> 00:48:13,881
Speaker 3: in about a year. They think they'll be ready in

895
00:48:13,961 --> 00:48:17,241
Speaker 3: June next year, which is crazy. I mean, why are

896
00:48:17,241 --> 00:48:19,161
Speaker 3: you going to spend all that money when you got

897
00:48:19,161 --> 00:48:20,921
Speaker 3: the guns, you got the bullets, You got people that

898
00:48:20,961 --> 00:48:24,281
Speaker 3: can shoot, and frankly, who cares if they miss? They'll

899
00:48:24,321 --> 00:48:26,441
Speaker 3: bleed out in a minute or two. But why do

900
00:48:26,521 --> 00:48:28,921
Speaker 3: we care if they have pain? Firing squad is the

901
00:48:28,961 --> 00:48:30,881
Speaker 3: fastest way to go unless we were to just lop

902
00:48:30,921 --> 00:48:34,321
Speaker 3: off your head, which they could do. Nobody's got that.

903
00:48:34,441 --> 00:48:36,561
Speaker 3: I don't think that would pass. I don't think anybody

904
00:48:36,561 --> 00:48:40,241
Speaker 3: wants to actually witness that in the United States. But

905
00:48:40,881 --> 00:48:43,921
Speaker 3: that truly would be the fastest way to be killed.

906
00:48:44,521 --> 00:48:46,361
Speaker 3: Or maybe we can step on you with an elephant.

907
00:48:46,801 --> 00:48:49,961
Speaker 3: You know, there's lots of ways. I mean, the truth

908
00:48:50,041 --> 00:48:52,561
Speaker 3: is really for us, it's not about how we kill

909
00:48:52,601 --> 00:48:55,481
Speaker 3: our prisoners, but that we do so when the system

910
00:48:55,561 --> 00:48:59,281
Speaker 3: is so broken. Yeah, you know, that's why we've started

911
00:48:59,321 --> 00:49:01,921
Speaker 3: a little campaign. You know, it's be interesting to see

912
00:49:01,921 --> 00:49:04,921
Speaker 3: how long this lasts. But you've heard about the Department

913
00:49:05,121 --> 00:49:09,121
Speaker 3: Government Efficiency DOGE, right, which Elon Musk was in charge

914
00:49:09,121 --> 00:49:13,201
Speaker 3: of and probably still is. If we're gonna have a

915
00:49:13,201 --> 00:49:16,761
Speaker 3: death penalty, then let's really take a look at as

916
00:49:17,121 --> 00:49:20,721
Speaker 3: an efficient government program. And of course it's not, so

917
00:49:20,801 --> 00:49:22,841
Speaker 3: that's the first thing they should be doing is actually

918
00:49:22,921 --> 00:49:26,321
Speaker 3: before they get rid of any government agency, actually do

919
00:49:26,441 --> 00:49:28,881
Speaker 3: the research and study it. But it wouldn't take long

920
00:49:28,961 --> 00:49:31,161
Speaker 3: to figure out that as a public policy, the death

921
00:49:31,161 --> 00:49:36,441
Speaker 3: penalty fails us morally, economically, financially, socially. It's just a

922
00:49:36,481 --> 00:49:39,201
Speaker 3: failed government program. And that's not me saying if that's

923
00:49:39,361 --> 00:49:44,241
Speaker 3: conservatives who have actually evaluated the system. George will is

924
00:49:44,241 --> 00:49:47,041
Speaker 3: a famous conservative voice on this issue. That's what he says.

925
00:49:47,201 --> 00:49:50,881
Speaker 3: The death point is just another failed government program. If

926
00:49:50,881 --> 00:49:53,081
Speaker 3: only they would look at it that way, if only

927
00:49:53,081 --> 00:49:56,041
Speaker 3: they would do a full deep analysis like they're talking

928
00:49:56,041 --> 00:50:00,761
Speaker 3: about doing in Indiana, multiple other states, Maryland, Illinois, New Jersey,

929
00:50:01,321 --> 00:50:04,521
Speaker 3: each of those states actually after having their study, ended

930
00:50:04,601 --> 00:50:08,041
Speaker 3: up about the death party because they realized it doesn't

931
00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:10,241
Speaker 3: do what we say it's going to do, and it

932
00:50:10,281 --> 00:50:12,441
Speaker 3: wastes a lot of resources and we could do better

933
00:50:12,481 --> 00:50:13,441
Speaker 3: for all concerned.

934
00:50:14,121 --> 00:50:16,521
Speaker 2: Is it true that it costs the taxpayers one million

935
00:50:16,561 --> 00:50:18,481
Speaker 2: for one death penalty in one.

936
00:50:18,321 --> 00:50:23,721
Speaker 3: Execution, Well, that's an estimate. But what we know is

937
00:50:23,761 --> 00:50:25,921
Speaker 3: that if a prosecutor decides that he or she is

938
00:50:25,961 --> 00:50:28,001
Speaker 3: going to seek a death party, they're going to spend

939
00:50:28,641 --> 00:50:31,561
Speaker 3: at least twice as much just on the trial, just

940
00:50:31,601 --> 00:50:33,521
Speaker 3: the trial as all the day. So whether you're going

941
00:50:33,561 --> 00:50:36,641
Speaker 3: to get a conviction, and then it's a second process

942
00:50:37,201 --> 00:50:39,001
Speaker 3: as to whether you're going to get a death sentence,

943
00:50:39,481 --> 00:50:41,161
Speaker 3: but you still have to put all the money in.

944
00:50:41,281 --> 00:50:43,401
Speaker 3: Even if you do get a death sentence. Half of

945
00:50:43,441 --> 00:50:47,961
Speaker 3: all death sentences are overturned during the appeals process. So yes,

946
00:50:48,161 --> 00:50:50,841
Speaker 3: all of that adds up to well over a million dollars.

947
00:50:51,001 --> 00:50:53,841
Speaker 3: It's going to be a different cost in Missouri than

948
00:50:53,881 --> 00:50:57,201
Speaker 3: it is in Mississippi than it is in California. But

949
00:50:57,681 --> 00:50:59,841
Speaker 3: either way, wherever they're doing it, they're kind of to

950
00:50:59,841 --> 00:51:03,481
Speaker 3: spend more. But yes, some cases have cost millions of dollars.

951
00:51:03,561 --> 00:51:06,401
Speaker 3: For example, for all the death sentences that they've had

952
00:51:06,561 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 3: in Ohio since they're early nineteen eighties, we've spent over

953
00:51:10,481 --> 00:51:14,321
Speaker 3: a billion dollars on our death penalty system in Ohio.

954
00:51:14,601 --> 00:51:17,321
Speaker 3: Those are and that's according to the Attorney General's numbers.

955
00:51:17,601 --> 00:51:21,121
Speaker 3: Two decades ago, in Florida, the Palm Beach Post estimated

956
00:51:21,161 --> 00:51:24,921
Speaker 3: that we were spending fifty one million dollars annually on

957
00:51:25,001 --> 00:51:28,001
Speaker 3: a death penalty that is hardly being used. In California,

958
00:51:28,041 --> 00:51:31,121
Speaker 3: it's again billions of dollars. They've got over seven hundred

959
00:51:31,121 --> 00:51:33,441
Speaker 3: people or at least now over six hundred people on

960
00:51:33,481 --> 00:51:36,841
Speaker 3: death thrown in California, and they haven't had an execution

961
00:51:36,961 --> 00:51:41,161
Speaker 3: in over a decade, and sell they're spending all the money,

962
00:51:41,841 --> 00:51:44,641
Speaker 3: we could be doing so much better for victim families

963
00:51:44,681 --> 00:51:48,081
Speaker 3: and for crime prevention and for better policing in general.

964
00:51:48,521 --> 00:51:50,801
Speaker 3: If we were putting that money into those other kinds

965
00:51:50,841 --> 00:51:53,841
Speaker 3: of services rather than this rule of the dice as

966
00:51:53,841 --> 00:51:56,321
Speaker 3: to whether we might get an execution a couple of

967
00:51:56,321 --> 00:51:57,241
Speaker 3: decades from now.

968
00:51:57,841 --> 00:52:00,401
Speaker 2: Do you actually think the death penalty desay is crime?

969
00:52:01,641 --> 00:52:05,361
Speaker 3: It deters the person that we execute, Sure, you can

970
00:52:05,401 --> 00:52:09,121
Speaker 3: equally deter them by throwing away the key. Does the

971
00:52:09,161 --> 00:52:13,361
Speaker 3: death penalty to stop somebody from committing murder? We can argue, actually,

972
00:52:13,401 --> 00:52:17,081
Speaker 3: it's more likely that the death paralty inspires murder by

973
00:52:17,121 --> 00:52:20,241
Speaker 3: people who feel like you know, like suicide by cop.

974
00:52:21,161 --> 00:52:23,561
Speaker 3: They want a death sentence. There have been people who've

975
00:52:23,561 --> 00:52:26,481
Speaker 3: actually changed the narrative of their crime so that they

976
00:52:26,481 --> 00:52:29,121
Speaker 3: could be eligible for the death penalty because they'd rather

977
00:52:29,361 --> 00:52:32,321
Speaker 3: get executed than spend the rest of their lives in prison.

978
00:52:33,041 --> 00:52:35,601
Speaker 3: And there are a few cases, especially of prisoners who

979
00:52:35,681 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 3: kill in prison, who are saying, I did it because

980
00:52:38,521 --> 00:52:41,081
Speaker 3: I want you to sentence me to death. Does it

981
00:52:41,161 --> 00:52:44,401
Speaker 3: stop a person who is committing a bank robbery from

982
00:52:44,881 --> 00:52:48,321
Speaker 3: deciding they're going to kill somebody? You don't think about

983
00:52:48,361 --> 00:52:50,641
Speaker 3: it in the heat of a moment like that. You know,

984
00:52:50,681 --> 00:52:54,761
Speaker 3: people that plan out their murders really well generally don't

985
00:52:54,801 --> 00:52:58,761
Speaker 3: get caught or if they do again, they weren't expecting

986
00:52:58,801 --> 00:53:01,241
Speaker 3: to get caught. So therefore, even if they were aware

987
00:53:01,281 --> 00:53:03,481
Speaker 3: that the death paralty exists in their state and is

988
00:53:03,641 --> 00:53:06,401
Speaker 3: used in their state and is a very real threat,

989
00:53:07,081 --> 00:53:09,681
Speaker 3: they're not thinking it's going to be that. What is

990
00:53:09,721 --> 00:53:13,521
Speaker 3: there really a deterrent is not the severity of the punishment,

991
00:53:13,561 --> 00:53:16,401
Speaker 3: but the certainty of the punishment. And if you don't

992
00:53:16,401 --> 00:53:18,961
Speaker 3: think you're going to get caught, then you're not worried

993
00:53:18,961 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 3: about it.

994
00:53:19,961 --> 00:53:22,801
Speaker 4: In addition to what Abe was saying, that a lot

995
00:53:22,841 --> 00:53:24,561
Speaker 4: of people who end up on death row and a

996
00:53:24,601 --> 00:53:27,841
Speaker 4: lot of people who carry out crime are not these

997
00:53:28,041 --> 00:53:31,561
Speaker 4: hyper calculated people that entertainment has.

998
00:53:31,481 --> 00:53:33,201
Speaker 1: Made murders out to be.

999
00:53:33,401 --> 00:53:36,081
Speaker 4: A lot of them, as we've already talked about, have

1000
00:53:36,241 --> 00:53:41,961
Speaker 4: severely diminished intellectual capacities, are mentally ill, are in other realities,

1001
00:53:42,161 --> 00:53:45,801
Speaker 4: and so this is not necessarily something that folks like

1002
00:53:45,841 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 4: that are going to consider when they're in the heat

1003
00:53:48,481 --> 00:53:49,001
Speaker 4: of a moment.

1004
00:53:49,601 --> 00:53:52,321
Speaker 2: Is there any sites at the moments who are opposed

1005
00:53:52,521 --> 00:53:53,801
Speaker 2: to the executions in America?

1006
00:53:54,721 --> 00:53:56,961
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are twenty three states that don't have the

1007
00:53:57,001 --> 00:53:57,561
Speaker 3: death penalty.

1008
00:53:57,761 --> 00:53:59,601
Speaker 2: I'm not getting pushed to take it. That just I

1009
00:53:59,761 --> 00:54:00,361
Speaker 2: know they don't want.

1010
00:54:00,921 --> 00:54:03,841
Speaker 3: Every once in a while, like a state like Iowa,

1011
00:54:04,041 --> 00:54:06,841
Speaker 3: which hasn't had the death in a long time, somebody

1012
00:54:06,881 --> 00:54:10,281
Speaker 3: introduces a bill to bring it back, and it doesn't

1013
00:54:10,321 --> 00:54:13,361
Speaker 3: go anywhere. They might get a hearing on their bill,

1014
00:54:13,401 --> 00:54:17,641
Speaker 3: but still, so far we haven't seen any states bring

1015
00:54:17,641 --> 00:54:20,681
Speaker 3: the death penalty back since we got on this path

1016
00:54:20,721 --> 00:54:23,601
Speaker 3: of actually the states getting rid of it. Like I said,

1017
00:54:23,641 --> 00:54:27,001
Speaker 3: in two thousand and seven, we legislatively abolished the death

1018
00:54:27,001 --> 00:54:28,921
Speaker 3: party in New Jersey in two thousand and nine, in

1019
00:54:28,961 --> 00:54:32,721
Speaker 3: New Mexico in twenty eleven, in Illinois twenty twelve, Connecticut

1020
00:54:32,721 --> 00:54:38,161
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, Maryland twenty fifteen. I think it was New Hampshire,

1021
00:54:38,601 --> 00:54:43,001
Speaker 3: then Colorado, then Virginia. Virginia the first of the Confederate

1022
00:54:43,041 --> 00:54:46,921
Speaker 3: states to legislatively abolish the death penalty. And then you

1023
00:54:47,001 --> 00:54:51,121
Speaker 3: have states like Washington, Delaware, and New York where the

1024
00:54:51,121 --> 00:54:53,881
Speaker 3: courts have thrown it out, and at least in Washington

1025
00:54:53,921 --> 00:54:57,641
Speaker 3: and Delaware then passed legislation to scrub the death party

1026
00:54:57,721 --> 00:55:00,201
Speaker 3: language out of the statute, so it's not even there anymore.

1027
00:55:00,241 --> 00:55:03,121
Speaker 3: And we're still running a bill in Delaware to prohibit

1028
00:55:03,521 --> 00:55:07,201
Speaker 3: in the Constitution of the state constitution. Right now, Michigan

1029
00:55:07,321 --> 00:55:11,841
Speaker 3: is the only state that constitutionally prohibits the death penalty.

1030
00:55:12,321 --> 00:55:15,961
Speaker 3: Then you have states like, for example, Oregon where the

1031
00:55:16,001 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 3: governor of the last governor before, on her way out

1032
00:55:18,441 --> 00:55:21,321
Speaker 3: of office, commuted all of the death sentences and they

1033
00:55:21,321 --> 00:55:23,761
Speaker 3: had already passed legislation to make it so you can

1034
00:55:23,801 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: only get a death sentence if you kill a cop,

1035
00:55:26,081 --> 00:55:30,881
Speaker 3: a police officer. Essentially, it doesn't exist there By the way,

1036
00:55:30,881 --> 00:55:33,041
Speaker 3: in terms of the murder of police officers, I'll mention

1037
00:55:33,161 --> 00:55:35,401
Speaker 3: this simply because the last guy the killed, the guy

1038
00:55:35,441 --> 00:55:39,201
Speaker 3: that was killed this past Tuesday night in Indiana was

1039
00:55:39,241 --> 00:55:42,801
Speaker 3: the killer of a police officer, okay, and he got

1040
00:55:42,801 --> 00:55:45,321
Speaker 3: a death sentence. Well, since he was sentenced to death.

1041
00:55:45,401 --> 00:55:48,601
Speaker 3: Twenty nine more law enforcement officers were murdered in the

1042
00:55:48,641 --> 00:55:51,641
Speaker 3: line of duty in Indiana. Two of the cases are

1043
00:55:51,681 --> 00:55:54,921
Speaker 3: still pending, but twenty seven of them did not result

1044
00:55:54,961 --> 00:55:57,601
Speaker 3: in a death sentence. So how is it fair? But

1045
00:55:57,721 --> 00:56:02,121
Speaker 3: more important also is statistics bear this out? From the

1046
00:56:02,161 --> 00:56:07,001
Speaker 3: Officer Down Memorial web page chronicles police officer deaths in

1047
00:56:07,001 --> 00:56:12,601
Speaker 3: the line of duty all kinds, from car crashes, heart attack, suicide, murder. Right,

1048
00:56:13,241 --> 00:56:17,241
Speaker 3: you are more likely Rather, it is more dangerous to

1049
00:56:17,641 --> 00:56:20,241
Speaker 3: be a police officer in a state that has the

1050
00:56:20,321 --> 00:56:22,681
Speaker 3: death penalty than in a state that doesn't. You're more

1051
00:56:22,801 --> 00:56:24,361
Speaker 3: likely to be killed in the line of duty if

1052
00:56:24,361 --> 00:56:26,921
Speaker 3: your state has the death paralty, and even more so

1053
00:56:27,921 --> 00:56:31,561
Speaker 3: if your state carries out executions. Then the numbers bear

1054
00:56:31,601 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 3: this out. So that speaks to the terrence. It also

1055
00:56:34,561 --> 00:56:37,641
Speaker 3: speaks to this whole question of fairness and all those

1056
00:56:37,681 --> 00:56:40,361
Speaker 3: other pieces of the puzzle. At the end of the day,

1057
00:56:41,321 --> 00:56:43,921
Speaker 3: almost half of all the states don't have a death penalty.

1058
00:56:44,081 --> 00:56:46,121
Speaker 3: So in nineteen seventy two, but you know, a Supreme

1059
00:56:46,121 --> 00:56:48,601
Speaker 3: court struck down all the death penal laws, and any

1060
00:56:48,601 --> 00:56:50,281
Speaker 3: state that wanted to have a death penalty had to

1061
00:56:50,281 --> 00:56:53,161
Speaker 3: write new laws. Many did. And at what point we're

1062
00:56:53,241 --> 00:56:58,281
Speaker 3: at thirty six states plus the military and the federal government.

1063
00:56:58,521 --> 00:57:01,401
Speaker 3: That thirty six is now down to twenty three in

1064
00:57:01,481 --> 00:57:03,801
Speaker 3: terms of states that have the death party on the books.

1065
00:57:04,401 --> 00:57:07,321
Speaker 3: How many are executing Well, let's see, it was this

1066
00:57:07,521 --> 00:57:11,961
Speaker 3: year eleven states have issued death warrants and nine have

1067
00:57:12,081 --> 00:57:15,041
Speaker 3: carried them out so far in twenty twenty five, but

1068
00:57:15,161 --> 00:57:18,641
Speaker 3: again in nineteen of those twenty three cases or eighty

1069
00:57:18,681 --> 00:57:23,161
Speaker 3: two point six percent. The courts could have intervened on

1070
00:57:23,321 --> 00:57:26,081
Speaker 3: real issues that should have been litigated, and yet they've

1071
00:57:26,121 --> 00:57:30,481
Speaker 3: done nothing. But to foy answer your question, twenty seven

1072
00:57:30,521 --> 00:57:34,161
Speaker 3: states have it, plus the military plus the federal government.

1073
00:57:34,561 --> 00:57:37,881
Speaker 3: This year, so far, nine states have issued death warrants,

1074
00:57:37,961 --> 00:57:40,921
Speaker 3: and I think seven states have carried out executions.

1075
00:57:41,041 --> 00:57:44,121
Speaker 2: Well, since April twenty twenty five, there's two thousand and

1076
00:57:44,201 --> 00:57:45,561
Speaker 2: sixty seven on death row.

1077
00:57:46,361 --> 00:57:50,121
Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow, that's amazing, and that's actually but that's actually

1078
00:57:50,281 --> 00:57:53,081
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four we saw the greatest I think

1079
00:57:53,281 --> 00:57:57,401
Speaker 3: death row was reduced by about seven percent across the board.

1080
00:57:57,561 --> 00:58:00,201
Speaker 3: And that's going to include President Biden, on his way

1081
00:58:00,241 --> 00:58:04,401
Speaker 3: out of office, commuted thirty seven of the forty federal

1082
00:58:04,401 --> 00:58:07,161
Speaker 3: death sentence. He left three people on death row and

1083
00:58:07,201 --> 00:58:10,481
Speaker 3: four people on the military death penalty, but thirty seven

1084
00:58:10,481 --> 00:58:15,441
Speaker 3: people had their sentences changed to death by incarceration. And

1085
00:58:15,681 --> 00:58:17,921
Speaker 3: that's a whole other conversation. But they one of the

1086
00:58:18,001 --> 00:58:20,001
Speaker 3: things that Donald Trump wants to do is make their

1087
00:58:20,721 --> 00:58:24,321
Speaker 3: life in prison as miserable as possible. Setting that aside.

1088
00:58:24,401 --> 00:58:27,561
Speaker 3: Also in North Carolina, the governor had been asked to

1089
00:58:27,601 --> 00:58:30,361
Speaker 3: commute all the death sentences. He chose to commute fifteen

1090
00:58:30,441 --> 00:58:34,321
Speaker 3: of them. So there was a seven percent drop in

1091
00:58:34,641 --> 00:58:38,481
Speaker 3: the numbers of people on death row in twenty twenty four.

1092
00:58:38,481 --> 00:58:41,081
Speaker 3: And that also speaks to the fact that where our

1093
00:58:41,121 --> 00:58:45,881
Speaker 3: movement has been successful is in slowing down new death

1094
00:58:45,921 --> 00:58:50,721
Speaker 3: sentences and even capital indictments are a regular low in

1095
00:58:50,841 --> 00:58:54,121
Speaker 3: terms of the trend of how many per year. We

1096
00:58:54,241 --> 00:58:57,241
Speaker 3: are started to see an increase in executions, but it's

1097
00:58:57,241 --> 00:59:00,321
Speaker 3: still pretty small. But where we're stopping the death penalty

1098
00:59:00,401 --> 00:59:04,721
Speaker 3: is upfront before people get sentenced to death, Fewer capital

1099
00:59:04,761 --> 00:59:07,841
Speaker 3: and dims, meaning they're not even seeking the death probalty

1100
00:59:08,241 --> 00:59:10,601
Speaker 3: most of the time, and then even when they do

1101
00:59:10,721 --> 00:59:14,481
Speaker 3: seek it, fewer new death sentences.

1102
00:59:15,481 --> 00:59:18,561
Speaker 2: Before we go, tell me the pros and cons of

1103
00:59:19,161 --> 00:59:21,041
Speaker 2: a death penalty wrongly, like you know what I mean,

1104
00:59:21,121 --> 00:59:24,001
Speaker 2: like or you've already said it doesn't reduce crime, so

1105
00:59:24,881 --> 00:59:26,681
Speaker 2: we can wipe that one out. Well, what do you

1106
00:59:26,761 --> 00:59:28,081
Speaker 2: reckon the pros and cons for this?

1107
00:59:28,161 --> 00:59:31,361
Speaker 3: Any prose? How do you have any prose for the

1108
00:59:31,401 --> 00:59:31,961
Speaker 3: death penalty?

1109
00:59:33,001 --> 00:59:36,081
Speaker 4: No, I was about to say that, I think everything

1110
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:36,841
Speaker 4: is a con.

1111
00:59:37,601 --> 00:59:39,961
Speaker 1: It doesn't support murder victim family.

1112
00:59:39,681 --> 00:59:43,801
Speaker 4: Members, it wastes resources. We've talked about this today, but

1113
00:59:43,841 --> 00:59:47,841
Speaker 4: It takes resources against not only supporting murder victim family

1114
00:59:47,881 --> 00:59:51,001
Speaker 4: members in the wake of their loved ones being murdered,

1115
00:59:51,281 --> 00:59:54,121
Speaker 4: but it also takes resources away from crime prevention.

1116
00:59:54,721 --> 00:59:57,441
Speaker 1: How can we prevent these murders from occurring in the first.

1117
00:59:57,241 --> 01:00:01,361
Speaker 4: Place, simply just responding to them mirror in the violence

1118
01:00:01,361 --> 01:00:02,841
Speaker 4: that we were trying to prevent.

1119
01:00:03,201 --> 01:00:03,801
Speaker 1: I mean, I.

1120
01:00:03,881 --> 01:00:06,681
Speaker 4: Personally have got and to know many people who have

1121
01:00:06,761 --> 01:00:10,841
Speaker 4: been executed and their families, and I can't think of

1122
01:00:10,881 --> 01:00:14,561
Speaker 4: anything more horrific and more soul crushing than getting to

1123
01:00:14,601 --> 01:00:18,921
Speaker 4: know these people as people, regardless of their guilt or innocence,

1124
01:00:18,961 --> 01:00:21,441
Speaker 4: and getting to know their families and the people who

1125
01:00:21,481 --> 01:00:24,481
Speaker 4: have stuck by them all these years, and to see

1126
01:00:24,521 --> 01:00:27,401
Speaker 4: that nothing that they have done in their twenty or

1127
01:00:27,401 --> 01:00:30,361
Speaker 4: thirty years or even longer on death row to reform

1128
01:00:30,401 --> 01:00:31,681
Speaker 4: themselves matters.

1129
01:00:32,281 --> 01:00:34,681
Speaker 1: That they are still contributing to their community.

1130
01:00:34,801 --> 01:00:38,361
Speaker 4: Some of them are pastors, many of them are working

1131
01:00:38,521 --> 01:00:41,441
Speaker 4: to not just drive down prime but to make the

1132
01:00:42,041 --> 01:00:46,081
Speaker 4: lives around them better. And none of that is worth

1133
01:00:46,121 --> 01:00:48,641
Speaker 4: anything when you execute them after all of these years,

1134
01:00:49,281 --> 01:00:51,641
Speaker 4: and just to see just how devastating it is for

1135
01:00:51,721 --> 01:00:55,241
Speaker 4: their families, Like nobody is the same after a loved

1136
01:00:55,241 --> 01:00:57,801
Speaker 4: one is murdered. But after when you are murdered in

1137
01:00:57,881 --> 01:01:00,961
Speaker 4: this way by the government that at any point can

1138
01:01:01,001 --> 01:01:04,801
Speaker 4: decide to turn off and consciously chooses not to at

1139
01:01:05,121 --> 01:01:08,641
Speaker 4: every point down the road, and then you get to

1140
01:01:08,681 --> 01:01:12,921
Speaker 4: an execution, which is arguably the most premeditated form of

1141
01:01:13,041 --> 01:01:16,041
Speaker 4: murder that there is. There's no excuse for that.

1142
01:01:16,201 --> 01:01:18,121
Speaker 1: I can go on and on. I'll let you finish

1143
01:01:18,121 --> 01:01:18,841
Speaker 1: answering your name.

1144
01:01:19,401 --> 01:01:22,321
Speaker 3: Well, I think I'll address one other aspects that we

1145
01:01:22,361 --> 01:01:24,841
Speaker 3: haven't really talked about. The death penalty is actually a

1146
01:01:24,881 --> 01:01:27,881
Speaker 3: two of fascism. You know. It's one thing that we

1147
01:01:28,641 --> 01:01:32,281
Speaker 3: already seeing you arrests of people that because of their

1148
01:01:32,361 --> 01:01:36,161
Speaker 3: opinion and because of the president doesn't like their opposition

1149
01:01:36,241 --> 01:01:39,121
Speaker 3: to them. And it's only a matter of time and

1150
01:01:39,201 --> 01:01:41,281
Speaker 3: we've seen this, which is why we don't want to

1151
01:01:41,321 --> 01:01:46,321
Speaker 3: go down that path towards authoritarianism and dictatorship. Is eventually

1152
01:01:46,361 --> 01:01:49,681
Speaker 3: that becomes a tool of government, and that's why government

1153
01:01:49,721 --> 01:01:52,281
Speaker 3: shouldn't be given the power. We can't trust them with

1154
01:01:52,321 --> 01:01:56,681
Speaker 3: the power to kill, even in a democracy system where

1155
01:01:56,721 --> 01:02:00,841
Speaker 3: the courts are actually functioning. And out of twenty three

1156
01:02:01,161 --> 01:02:05,441
Speaker 3: death warrants in twenty twenty five eighty two percent had

1157
01:02:05,521 --> 01:02:09,161
Speaker 3: issues left to litigate and they were procedurely barred. It

1158
01:02:09,281 --> 01:02:13,321
Speaker 3: was just too late. Finality is more important. So the

1159
01:02:13,361 --> 01:02:16,081
Speaker 3: only pro if I can think of any if you're

1160
01:02:16,081 --> 01:02:19,241
Speaker 3: having a death penalty is actually to the benefit of

1161
01:02:19,281 --> 01:02:21,441
Speaker 3: the prisoners who don't want to live life without parole,

1162
01:02:21,921 --> 01:02:26,161
Speaker 3: that they can choose by waiving their appeals to end

1163
01:02:26,281 --> 01:02:28,761
Speaker 3: their lives and not have to live in the misery

1164
01:02:28,841 --> 01:02:32,241
Speaker 3: of dying in prison. Okay. So that's a pro for them.

1165
01:02:32,441 --> 01:02:34,241
Speaker 3: And we've had a couple of people this year who've

1166
01:02:34,241 --> 01:02:36,121
Speaker 3: thrown off their appeals and they said, I don't want

1167
01:02:36,121 --> 01:02:39,241
Speaker 3: any appeals, I'm sick of this, let me go. And

1168
01:02:39,361 --> 01:02:42,081
Speaker 3: that's the only way you can get a state assisted

1169
01:02:42,201 --> 01:02:44,881
Speaker 3: suicide is if you are sentenced to death and wave

1170
01:02:44,921 --> 01:02:49,081
Speaker 3: your appeals. Okay. So really, the other thing we haven't

1171
01:02:49,081 --> 01:02:51,881
Speaker 3: talked about, which we should just quickly, is what do

1172
01:02:51,921 --> 01:02:54,361
Speaker 3: we do about it? Okay. On our web page of

1173
01:02:54,401 --> 01:02:56,881
Speaker 3: Death Penalty Action, we invite people to sign a petition

1174
01:02:56,961 --> 01:02:58,921
Speaker 3: from anywhere in the world, and if you don't live

1175
01:02:58,921 --> 01:03:01,881
Speaker 3: in the United States, do two things. One is right

1176
01:03:02,001 --> 01:03:05,721
Speaker 3: to or communicate with the US ambassador to your country

1177
01:03:05,761 --> 01:03:08,121
Speaker 3: and say hey, I think you need, guys need to

1178
01:03:08,161 --> 01:03:11,321
Speaker 3: stop this and also talk to your own version, your

1179
01:03:11,321 --> 01:03:14,161
Speaker 3: own Ministry of Foreign Affairs or state Department or whatever

1180
01:03:14,241 --> 01:03:17,441
Speaker 3: you call it there and ask them to intervene with

1181
01:03:17,521 --> 01:03:19,761
Speaker 3: their own colleagues in the United States and say, hey,

1182
01:03:19,801 --> 01:03:23,001
Speaker 3: we oppose the death ploty as most democracies in the

1183
01:03:23,001 --> 01:03:26,641
Speaker 3: world do, contact your own legislaters, ask them to put

1184
01:03:26,681 --> 01:03:30,601
Speaker 3: pressure on us, not just US government officials, but also

1185
01:03:30,761 --> 01:03:34,041
Speaker 3: US businesses in your countries that are doing business in

1186
01:03:34,081 --> 01:03:36,561
Speaker 3: the United States, especially if it's in a state that

1187
01:03:37,161 --> 01:03:41,201
Speaker 3: has a death penalty. They have power more than anything

1188
01:03:41,201 --> 01:03:43,801
Speaker 3: that we could do. If you're spending money in Alabama,

1189
01:03:44,281 --> 01:03:46,601
Speaker 3: you can say to the Chamber of Commerce in Alabama,

1190
01:03:46,721 --> 01:03:49,681
Speaker 3: you know, we're thinking about moving to Michigan or another

1191
01:03:49,721 --> 01:03:51,881
Speaker 3: state that doesn't use the death plalty because we don't

1192
01:03:52,521 --> 01:03:54,481
Speaker 3: think that that's appropriate. We don't want to be touched

1193
01:03:54,481 --> 01:03:56,921
Speaker 3: by that. So those are another things you can do.

1194
01:03:57,561 --> 01:03:59,961
Speaker 3: I would also say that right now we are in

1195
01:03:59,961 --> 01:04:02,801
Speaker 3: a pinch financially and we're inviting people who can to

1196
01:04:03,041 --> 01:04:05,681
Speaker 3: make donations to help us do this work, and that

1197
01:04:05,721 --> 01:04:09,521
Speaker 3: can be anything from one dollar to know if a

1198
01:04:09,561 --> 01:04:12,081
Speaker 3: million dollars would change our world and we're looking for

1199
01:04:12,121 --> 01:04:15,241
Speaker 3: a game changer who can help us create a whole

1200
01:04:15,241 --> 01:04:17,121
Speaker 3: lot of capacity where we don't have to worry every

1201
01:04:17,161 --> 01:04:19,761
Speaker 3: day about fundraising and we can be focused on the

1202
01:04:19,761 --> 01:04:22,601
Speaker 3: work of educating the public about why the death parloty

1203
01:04:22,681 --> 01:04:26,321
Speaker 3: doesn't work and making sure that every execution gets a

1204
01:04:26,321 --> 01:04:27,161
Speaker 3: good protest.

1205
01:04:28,041 --> 01:04:31,561
Speaker 4: I know Abe had just mentioned about how the United

1206
01:04:31,561 --> 01:04:34,641
Speaker 4: States is one of the only democracies in the world

1207
01:04:34,841 --> 01:04:38,641
Speaker 4: that carries out executions. When we talk about the company

1208
01:04:38,641 --> 01:04:41,921
Speaker 4: that the United States keeps, we are always in the

1209
01:04:41,921 --> 01:04:44,841
Speaker 4: top ten of nations that are executing in the world.

1210
01:04:45,121 --> 01:04:47,321
Speaker 1: We are usually in the top five.

1211
01:04:48,041 --> 01:04:51,681
Speaker 4: The company that we keep is Iran, who's hanging protesters,

1212
01:04:52,041 --> 01:04:56,481
Speaker 4: and China. These are not places that we look towards

1213
01:04:56,681 --> 01:05:00,401
Speaker 4: as arbiters of human rights, and this is the company

1214
01:05:00,441 --> 01:05:03,041
Speaker 4: that we're keeping. In many other ways, we have been

1215
01:05:03,401 --> 01:05:06,041
Speaker 4: positioned in the West to be again these countries for

1216
01:05:06,121 --> 01:05:08,921
Speaker 4: as long as we can remember, and we are behaving

1217
01:05:08,961 --> 01:05:11,481
Speaker 4: in a way that is equivalent to what they are doing.

1218
01:05:11,761 --> 01:05:15,321
Speaker 1: On this issue. And that is something that people forget.

1219
01:05:15,401 --> 01:05:17,761
Speaker 4: We can't claim to care about human rights when we

1220
01:05:17,801 --> 01:05:19,801
Speaker 4: are doing exactly the same thing that they are.

1221
01:05:20,161 --> 01:05:22,761
Speaker 2: Well, I want to say This has been a very

1222
01:05:22,801 --> 01:05:26,921
Speaker 2: fascinating podcast, and you've been everything that I thought you

1223
01:05:27,001 --> 01:05:30,441
Speaker 2: would be. To now kind of like get me off

1224
01:05:30,481 --> 01:05:32,881
Speaker 2: the fence a little bit me because I can see

1225
01:05:32,921 --> 01:05:35,041
Speaker 2: now your point of view, I can see it well.

1226
01:05:35,361 --> 01:05:37,921
Speaker 3: But I tell people as set aside the concept. There

1227
01:05:37,961 --> 01:05:40,081
Speaker 3: are certainly people who deserve for whatever they get coming,

1228
01:05:41,081 --> 01:05:43,601
Speaker 3: but it's not for us to do that. All we

1229
01:05:43,681 --> 01:05:45,401
Speaker 3: need to do is be safe from people who are

1230
01:05:45,401 --> 01:05:47,841
Speaker 3: doing us harm and hold them accountable if we can.

1231
01:05:48,841 --> 01:05:52,201
Speaker 3: But we can't trust our government to function in a

1232
01:05:52,201 --> 01:05:54,481
Speaker 3: way that's always going to get it right every time,

1233
01:05:54,641 --> 01:05:57,481
Speaker 3: get it fair every time, do it in an expeditious

1234
01:05:57,481 --> 01:06:00,881
Speaker 3: way every time. It's not going to happen, and therefore

1235
01:06:01,001 --> 01:06:04,241
Speaker 3: that shouldn't be the ultimate punishment. Well, thank you for

1236
01:06:04,281 --> 01:06:07,161
Speaker 3: coming on, thank you for having us, Thank you for

1237
01:06:07,201 --> 01:06:07,681
Speaker 3: having us.