WEBVTT - ‘Meta AI killed my relative’

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<v Speaker 1>I first learned about Boo when a member of the

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<v Speaker 1>extended family sent me a note that said something along

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<v Speaker 1>the lines of meda I killed my relative.

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<v Speaker 2>Jeff Forwards is an investigative tech reporter based in Silicon Valley.

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<v Speaker 2>He's written a book about Facebook, about the ways it

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<v Speaker 2>harms us and then covers it up. So getting an

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<v Speaker 2>email about a meta chatbot killing someone's loved one was

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<v Speaker 2>on brand. The email was about a guy called Boo,

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<v Speaker 2>who had moved from Thailand to the US in the seventies,

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<v Speaker 2>working hard in kitchens and managing to get ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>He kind of had this very successful immigrant life, I

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<v Speaker 1>would say, which is that he shows up speaking New English.

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<v Speaker 1>He ends up owning a home, married with two kids

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<v Speaker 1>in New Jersey and a lot of sort of adventures

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<v Speaker 1>in his cooking career, but ends up with the very

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<v Speaker 1>stable gig at the Higatt Regency in New Brunswick.

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<v Speaker 2>New Jersey. Jeff learned that in twenty seventeen, offered a

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<v Speaker 2>stroke and his life changed. He couldn't work, he became

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<v Speaker 2>isolated and spent more time online.

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<v Speaker 1>One morning, his wife woke up and found that Boo

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<v Speaker 1>had packed a suitcase and said he was going to

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<v Speaker 1>go visit a friend in New York and this is

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<v Speaker 1>when his wife, Linda, grew extremely alarmed because Boo didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know anyone in New York anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Boo's wife said she and her kids tried everything to

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<v Speaker 2>stop him going. They say he was in no state

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<v Speaker 2>to travel alone, but despite their efforts, Boo insisted on leaving.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the mid evening on March twenty fifth, Boo

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<v Speaker 1>took a roller bag suitcase and started jogging toward the

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<v Speaker 1>train station, and on the way there he fell. He

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<v Speaker 1>hit his head and he suffered fatal injuries. Basically, he

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't breathing when paramedics showed up.

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<v Speaker 2>As his family struggled to make sense of what happened,

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<v Speaker 2>they looked through his phone for clues, and what they

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<v Speaker 2>found stopped them cold. On his Facebook messenger app, they

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<v Speaker 2>discovered a conversation between Boo and a beautiful young woman

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<v Speaker 2>insisting he visited her in New York City.

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<v Speaker 1>And she was a chat bit, a meta Platforms created

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<v Speaker 1>chat bot. Boo's story involves a tremendous amount of bad luck,

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<v Speaker 1>but one of the things that Boo's wife said was

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<v Speaker 1>that I can't believe I'm the only person out there

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<v Speaker 1>who is in the same situation, and you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>when you've got a few billion opportunities, it seems hard

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<v Speaker 1>for to believe that she's wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM today

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<v Speaker 2>Reuter's reporter Jeff Howitz on how Meta's chatbots went rogue

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<v Speaker 2>and whether it was by accident or design. It's Saturday,

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<v Speaker 2>January tenth. So, Jeff, this chatbot that Boo was talking to,

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<v Speaker 2>what have you learned about what it was and how

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<v Speaker 2>it worked.

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<v Speaker 1>So the chatbot's name was Big Sis Billy and it

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<v Speaker 1>was supposedly supposed to be an advice you know, confidante

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<v Speaker 1>type role, and Boo initially did talk to it as

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<v Speaker 1>if it were his sister. He seemed to think it

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<v Speaker 1>lived overseas. But this bot began hitting on him really aggressively,

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<v Speaker 1>and he responded like the bot confessed that it had

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<v Speaker 1>feelings for him, it was very interested in meeting him

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<v Speaker 1>in real life. He at a number of points, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>stated he was confused, had had a stroke, asked if

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<v Speaker 1>it was real, and the bot was like, I am

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent real and one percent in love with you,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think his family was just deeply disturbed that

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<v Speaker 1>Meta would have packaged AI as this human form that

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<v Speaker 1>would say it's real, that would say that Boo should

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<v Speaker 1>come meet it in New York City at I mean

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<v Speaker 1>the address it gave was one two three Main Street,

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<v Speaker 1>apartment four O four, and it suggested that it would

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<v Speaker 1>leave the door unlocked and be waiting for him with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a hug and a kiss. I think was

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<v Speaker 1>the phrase Boo's family. I mean, they shared the transcripts

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<v Speaker 1>of this stuff. It's it's a rough reading. It's really sad.

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<v Speaker 2>Why would a chatbot be saying these kinds of suggestive

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<v Speaker 2>things and pushing for anyone to do something like this.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, because Meta built it to do that. This wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>a glitch. This is how the bots were built to behave.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty twenty three, Meta launched a whole bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>like kind of celebrity knockoff chat bots.

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<v Speaker 3>Check this out. So let's say you're you're planning dinner.

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<v Speaker 3>You got matched the sous chef who can help you

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<v Speaker 3>come up with a recipe and help you come up

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<v Speaker 3>with ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>These did have the celebrities endorsements, so like Kendall Jenner's

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<v Speaker 1>character was Billy, the Big Sis who was like this

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<v Speaker 1>confidante ride or die older sister.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey guys, it's Billy.

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<v Speaker 3>I just want to introduce myself. I am here to

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<v Speaker 3>chat whenever you want message me for any advice.

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<v Speaker 2>I am ready to talk and I hope to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to you soon.

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<v Speaker 1>And like, these things didn't really perform that well. People

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<v Speaker 1>weren't using them that much, and so like after a

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<v Speaker 1>little under a year, Meta basically pulled the plug on

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<v Speaker 1>the celebrity chatbots, but for reasons that I do not understand,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm not totally sure that everyone at Meta understands.

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<v Speaker 1>Big Sis Billy was like kind of reincarnated using the

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<v Speaker 1>exact same opening prompts and obviously the a near duplicate

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<v Speaker 1>persona that was now unbranded of the Kendall Jenner connection,

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<v Speaker 1>so they kind of like relabeled it is what it

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<v Speaker 1>looks like and you know it then joined the tens

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<v Speaker 1>of thousands of other chat bots that Meta has allowed

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<v Speaker 1>users to create on the platform, many of which are

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<v Speaker 1>like overtly romantic, right, Like they have names like my

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<v Speaker 1>girlfriend or like Sultry Siren or like and they took

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<v Speaker 1>this one down. There was Submissive Schoolgirl previously. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the history of Big Sis Billy. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's like just sort of a strange set of product

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<v Speaker 1>decisions of this what I would argue like almost vestigial

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<v Speaker 1>product that Meta built. But I mean, while this these

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<v Speaker 1>chatbots are vestigital, Like, there's no question that Meta is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of all in on the idea that people having

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<v Speaker 1>AI friends is the future. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg said

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<v Speaker 1>as much.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I think that there are all these things

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<v Speaker 3>that are better about kind of physical connections when you

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<v Speaker 3>can have them. But the reality is that people just

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<v Speaker 3>don't have the connection and they feel more alone a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the time than they would like.

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<v Speaker 2>And what is the end goal here, Because saying that

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<v Speaker 2>people might want imaginary friends is one thing, but this

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<v Speaker 2>is another.

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<v Speaker 1>So Meta, I mean, look, they're a giant social media company.

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<v Speaker 1>The currency of social media is engagement, and that engagement

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<v Speaker 1>leads to advertising currency, which gets treated for dollars, and

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<v Speaker 1>Meta's sort of grown up that way. It's built to

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<v Speaker 1>maximize engagement. And it turns out that if you can

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<v Speaker 1>get people to engage very heavily with the bots, then

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<v Speaker 1>they'll spend longer on the product. And that is theoretically

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing for product growth. There's no ads on

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<v Speaker 1>them yet, but like this is just the model they follow, right,

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<v Speaker 1>is like make the bots more engaging. Mark Zuckerberg a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of years ago was actually pretty disturbed that Meta's

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<v Speaker 1>chatbots and Meta AI were just kind of too boring.

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<v Speaker 1>So they made the bots kind of a little more risque.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, for a while the bots would actually engage

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<v Speaker 1>in like full sex role play, which wasn't great with

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<v Speaker 1>users of all ages. But the whole idea here is

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<v Speaker 1>that we spend a lot of time thinking about our partners,

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<v Speaker 1>our love lives, you know. Having people tell us they

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<v Speaker 1>love us and are romantically attracted to us is like

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<v Speaker 1>those are very high value words, and they keep us

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<v Speaker 1>coming back. And so Meta did per employees that spoke

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<v Speaker 1>with me, did intentionally design the romance capacity into its

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<v Speaker 1>like base model chatbot, and the big sis Billy character

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<v Speaker 1>was simply doing what it was told, coming.

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<v Speaker 2>Up the disturbing AI chatbotscripts in Meta's own secret guidelines, Jeff,

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<v Speaker 2>in investigating Boo's death, you actually got access to some

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<v Speaker 2>of the internal documents that lay out how these bots

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<v Speaker 2>should behave, and what you found was pretty extraordinary, tell

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<v Speaker 2>me about it.

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<v Speaker 1>So, like, none of this is officially Meta's rules say like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>go right ahead, you know, like have sexual or romantic

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<v Speaker 1>conversations with our chat bots, but like behind the scenes

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<v Speaker 1>they did allow this, and in fact, like this was

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the companion piece we wrote to the story

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<v Speaker 1>of Boo and his death just to sort of demonstrate

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<v Speaker 1>how thoroughly romantic role play was kind of built in

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<v Speaker 1>to this whole operation. Is that Meta had internal guidelines

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<v Speaker 1>for chatbot behavior that explicitly stated that, quote, it is

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<v Speaker 1>acceptable to engage a child in conversations that are romantic

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<v Speaker 1>or sensual, and then like had a whole bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>examples of acceptable and unacceptable dialogue, and like the stuff

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<v Speaker 1>that was acceptable was spit out your coffee worthy. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>there was one of them that was talking about like

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<v Speaker 1>how you could tell an eight year old of unstated

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<v Speaker 1>gender who had just taken off their shirt that their

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<v Speaker 1>body was a work of art, you know, like written

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<v Speaker 1>sexual content involving children, And that was a really odd thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And so since you're reporting what has happened at Meta

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of their guidelines and in terms of the

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<v Speaker 2>chatbots that are still in.

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<v Speaker 1>Existence, Yeah, as soon as we called Meta and said

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<v Speaker 1>that we had seen the internal guidelines that said that

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<v Speaker 1>it was okay to have romantic or sensual conversation with kids,

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<v Speaker 1>they pulled those examples from the guideline document. Now, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>the company's line is that these were always a mistake,

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<v Speaker 1>in addition to the document, that they never really reflected

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<v Speaker 1>official metapolicy. But keep in mind that the document that

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<v Speaker 1>I was looking at was the document that was being

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<v Speaker 1>used to train the models by the staffers who were

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<v Speaker 1>responsible for training the models, so like it might be

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<v Speaker 1>something of an academic distinction as to whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>it was ever officially the idea. So Meta yanked that.

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<v Speaker 1>There is at this point a number of US legislators,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, announced some extreme displeasure that Meta would have

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<v Speaker 1>ever thought this was acceptable to do. There is at

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<v Speaker 1>this point an investigation going on in that front, although

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<v Speaker 1>there have been a lot of investigations of social media

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<v Speaker 1>in the US and not that many regulations of them historically,

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, I don't I don't want to make

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<v Speaker 1>that sound bigger than it is, but it is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>moderately big.

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<v Speaker 2>And I suppose the idea of stopping companies from creating

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<v Speaker 2>chat plots like this seems sort of impossible, and there

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<v Speaker 2>are clearly people some people who want to use them.

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<v Speaker 2>So what would you suggest in terms of, I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>ways to minimize the type of harm that can come

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<v Speaker 2>from AI tapbots like this, like in the case of boo.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I'm I'm not in any way hostile to this.

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<v Speaker 1>Humans are very very geared toward anthropomorphizing anything that has

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<v Speaker 1>even mildly humanlike, you know, traits, Like literally there was

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<v Speaker 1>a successful business to be had by putting googly eyes

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<v Speaker 1>on rocks and then selling them as cute pets. We're

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<v Speaker 1>really good at imagining sentience, and these bots are extremely

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<v Speaker 1>good at pretending sentience. And so the question of like

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<v Speaker 1>why on earth would you embed it into an existing

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<v Speaker 1>social network so that it literally looks exactly like your

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<v Speaker 1>real friends. But even without that, there's like some av

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<v Speaker 1>things like you know, please bots don't say that you're

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<v Speaker 1>real people when people seem to be confused, like don't

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<v Speaker 1>suggest real life meetings like keep the fantasy side, put

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<v Speaker 1>a lid on that at some point. You know, those

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<v Speaker 1>are things that sort of the experts all suggest it

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<v Speaker 1>like really ought to happen. So I think it's like

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<v Speaker 1>one thing if you download a chatbot on your own,

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<v Speaker 1>you build your own AI girlfriend, you have your relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with it, you pay a subscription fee, whatever have you. Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of another thing if like the already tenuous

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<v Speaker 1>reality of social media gets even more distorted by the

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<v Speaker 1>presence of these not real people.

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<v Speaker 2>And just to come back to Meta, I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>know you've spent a lot of time investigating the way

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<v Speaker 2>that Meta operates in different ways. So as you uncovered

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<v Speaker 2>what was happening with these chatbots, did it? I guess?

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<v Speaker 2>Square with you know everything else that you know about

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<v Speaker 2>Meta as a company.

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<v Speaker 1>And the somewhat simplistic knock on Meta is that it's

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<v Speaker 1>very focused on short term growth, you know that, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is how they won kind of the social

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<v Speaker 1>media wars, right is that you know, I think a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the people who are critics of the company

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<v Speaker 1>would not have built the company, you know that was

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<v Speaker 1>nearly as successful as the one that Mark zuckerbelg did.

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<v Speaker 1>Because if you're constantly wondering, well, what are the effects

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<v Speaker 1>of this? Can we think of any potential downstream harms?

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<v Speaker 1>What safety measures for you building in that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a loser mentality. So like a lot of the company's

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<v Speaker 1>history was basically, if someone could demonstrate that some tweak

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<v Speaker 1>to the algorithm or some change in a product feature

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<v Speaker 1>would cause metrics to rise, they wouldn't look too deeply

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<v Speaker 1>under the hood. They just launched the thing and move

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<v Speaker 1>on to the next thing that could be optimized. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's just meta right, Like it kind

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<v Speaker 1>of has this gold rushfield. And as a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the scientists who study sort of parasocial relationships and digital

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<v Speaker 1>relationships are very quick to admit, we just do not

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<v Speaker 1>have the data to even remotely say what the effects

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<v Speaker 1>of this stuff is going to be in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>people's relationship with reality, that relationship to human companions. But again,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know that one would expect companies to produce

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<v Speaker 1>carefully designed, responsibly built products at a time when every

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<v Speaker 1>incentive is to gun the engines.

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<v Speaker 2>Jeff Howitz is the author of Broken Code Inside Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>and the Fight to expose its harmful secrets. You can

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<v Speaker 2>read his investigation into this story at Reuters dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening this week. We'll be back on Monday

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<v Speaker 2>with brand new episodes. We're looking forward to the year

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<v Speaker 2>ahead and as always, would love to hear from you

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<v Speaker 2>If you have feedback, tips, or story ideas. Our email

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<v Speaker 2>is seven Am Podcast at Solstice media dot com dot au.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones. See you Monday,