1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: James Kirby from The Australian. Welcome aboard everybody today. I 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: want to pose a simple, single question, something I will 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: freely admit I am not the first to ask, but 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: I can tell you the answer is not set in stone, 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: and I expect everybody who listens to this show wonders 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: about the appeal of property versus shares? Is one better 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: than the others, one easier than the other? I also 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: want to cover some great questions that have come in 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: from you, the listeners. My guest today is Anthony Keene. 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: He's a personal finance writer at News Corporation, regular guest 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: on the show and has recently written quite a bit 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: about this and I think on usually four commentations and 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: writers has come down quite firmly on one side. But 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: we won't tell you what side that is till we 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: actually kick it around first. How are you, Anthony, I'm good. 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: Thanks James, Thank you for coming on the show again. 18 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: I know it's a big week, budget week. This comes up, 19 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: right property versus shares? Sometimes it comes up in the 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: guys of whether people should put their money into super 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: or property. That's something that comes up all the time 22 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: of late what people have been saying, and these are 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: very powerful points. I not the issue of which is easier. 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: I think traditionally always the thing people said. Look, I 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: find it all too hard with shares. I don't understand 26 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: frank dividends. I don't know one company from another. I 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: do understand property. It's easier. But in recent times, buy 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: and selling shares has become terribly easy and much cheaper 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: as a percentage of how much you're spending. It's become easy, 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: it's become cheap, hassle free. This is not an advertisement 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: for exchange traded funds or index funds, but it's beyond 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: dispute that the creation of exchange traded funds has meant 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: that you don't have to know a damn thing about 34 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: the share market these days to be quite usefully and 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: diversified in your investment approach through ETFs. What do you 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: think of that approach that people are starting to talk about. 37 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right, James etf. I mean, they've 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: been around for a good sort of twenty odd years, 39 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: but they just keep going from strength to strength. Warren Buffett, 40 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: the famous US billionaire is a big fan of them, 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: as are a lot of sort of successful investors, because 42 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: with every dollar that you put into an ETF, you 43 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 2: don't have to choose a company, you don't have to 44 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: research them, you just can track the index. So one 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 2: dollar of investment puts you across the top two hundred 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: stocks on the ASX or the S and P five 47 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 2: hundred index in the US, or whatever you want. So 48 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: you're just getting that simple access. And as you said, 49 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 2: there's lower costs as well, and it's great and I 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: have a lot of them in my personal superfund, and 51 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: it is great way just to ride the market. You're 52 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: not trying to do stock picking and that sort of thing. 53 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: I've tried that over many years. Like most I reckon, 54 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: I came out in the red rather than the blacks. 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: So it's a great way to do it. And at 56 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: the same time, I think property to a degree has 57 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: become trickier, especially in some states of Australia. There's just 58 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: constant changes to the rules for and if we're talking 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: about residential investment property, which is still with vast majority 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: of where Ossie's investing rule changes, tax changes, election promises 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: that may or may not happen. We just don't know. 62 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: So that seems to have become more complex over the 63 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: last five or ten years as well. 64 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: Yes it does. I mean we don't on the shore 65 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: recently about the ten separate property taxes in Victoria and 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: that they had created two new ones in January. Believe 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: it or not, I'm out of date. There's a thirteen 68 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: tax and they've just announced that the emergency services level 69 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: would be higher for property owners than for homeowners. So 70 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: there you go, folks, thirteen taxes lined up for you 71 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: should you choose to invest in one stage versus another 72 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: state like Queensland, which has less taxes. Before we get 73 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: into that one thing we're saying, though, we're putting shares 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: up against property here and asking the question, posing the question, 75 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: which is better now when we talk about shares. Of course, 76 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: there's a part of it which is so easy. It's 77 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: it's hard to underestimate. Like if I own a property 78 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: and Anthony, you won't invest in property, so have I 79 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: even if you had the managed and I use the 80 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: word managed in sneak quotes because even if you have 81 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: a property managed, you know the manager is going to 82 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: call you a lot and you're walking down the street, 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: and then you get these calls about details of and 84 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: if you have several properties, you get several calls about 85 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: several details. So you can't really outsource this in any 86 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: substantial way unless you pay. The more you pay, obviously, 87 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: the more you can outsource it, then the less you 88 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: make on the property. But the marvelous thing about chairs 89 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: is that there's so little work. And you mentioned ETFs, 90 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean there's absolutely no work with them. Mister. You 91 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: go and you bought your straight share market, your US 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: share markets, you're NASDAK. Maybe you buy a world index, 93 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you buy a single team that you're particularly interested in, 94 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: like say AI or something like that, or electric cars, 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: whatever you like, you buy them and really you don't 96 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: have to do a damn thing month after month. And 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: that contrasts substantially. And our listeners who have property would 98 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: know that. Do I make it sound too easy? 99 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: No? I think it is as simple as that. Still, 100 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: obviously there's the issues that you're going to have with 101 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: rises and falls in stock markets here and overseas, they 102 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: do tend to be a lot more volatile. So but 103 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: you're right, the simplicity seems to have gone. It. You 104 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: just to seem simple to Number one investment for Ozzie 105 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: once I'd paid a bit off their own home, was 106 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 2: to buy an investment property. But it has become more difficult, 107 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: as rightly you say, share ownership has become simpler and 108 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: cheaper on the Internet has done a lot that not 109 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: only to make those processes cheaper, but also provide research 110 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: for those who want to do the research. 111 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: And that's a very good point. It was upon a 112 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: time you had to be a broker's client to get research, 113 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: and now a lot of researchers out there for free, 114 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: isn't it on stocks? And they're quite certainly the major stocks, 115 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: the top twenty stocks. You can get quite a lot 116 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: for free. Or you could just sign up with an 117 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: online broker and do very little, like say one of 118 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: the major brokers. You don't have to do much trading 119 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: with them, and you're on forever and you can still 120 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: access what they access and their research. So that's another attraction. 121 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: Someone once said, you know, I thought it was very 122 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: powerful that you said there about the market's being volatile. 123 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean, in truth, if residential property, if every house 124 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: had a neon sign across the top which showed in 125 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: real time, how much that house was valued per day. 126 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: It would move around, of course, just like people. Super 127 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: moves around, and people get obsessed with their super and 128 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: they're looking at it every day, which they should not do. 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they shouldn't look at it all regularly, 130 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: but looking at it up simply isn't very healthy. Now. Similarly, 131 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: I wonder if we had if every house, by law, 132 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 1: had to have a sign around it, across the top, 133 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: a little box where you could see how much it 134 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,679 Speaker 1: was valued on that day, would people's attitude above comparing 135 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: shares and property change. 136 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: Perhaps a little, But I and maybe I haven't looked 137 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: in the right spots, but it's extremely rare that you'll 138 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: see a value of real estate by more than fifty percent, 139 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: as we saw during their global financial crisis, And so 140 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: there is that. And even during the COVID some that 141 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: sort of march exactly five years ago, that was pretty 142 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: hairy further stock market, but it was also scary for property. 143 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: I remember writing stories five years ago how property investors 144 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: were selling up everything at the time because they thought 145 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: the world was ending. But probably the biggest investment mistake 146 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: they made, because it's been generally pretty strong for everyone 147 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: since then, some states have done a lot in cities 148 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: a lot better than others, but everyone's recovered from that. 149 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 2: So I think properly would move on a daily basis 150 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: if it was a way of valuing it. But I 151 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: still don't think it would move as much as shares. 152 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: But you're dealing with much bigger numbers as well. Medium 153 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: sort of house price at or nine hundred thousand only 154 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: knows by one percent or whatever, it's still eight or 155 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: nine grand that you've lost there, So yes, it probably 156 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: wouldn't want to see how much you've made or lost 157 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: in a particular day on the real estate market. That's right. 158 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: You see this thing because it is moving up and down. 159 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: But maybe people like that fact that there's an element 160 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: of blind trust there that you just know over a 161 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: lot period of time it's going to go up. It's 162 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: also going to go up on the share market. The 163 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: problem is, or the issue is that you can see 164 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: it every day just turning things around on property. Anthony. 165 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: The number of people who've come up to me in 166 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: Sydney and Melbourne in the last two weeks or so 167 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: and said, and they are older in the mean, and 168 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: they have said, I can't see how property is going 169 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: to be as good as it were. The number of 170 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: people who have had a lifetime and property effectively a 171 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: lifetime and property, it was said twenty five to thirty 172 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: years investing and have now decided that they've already sold 173 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: their property or they've decided to get out. Do you 174 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: think that has changed the answer in any way to 175 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: which is better? 176 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 2: I don't know that it has. I think that and 177 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: I mentioned before different cities have done differently with property. 178 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: But we're lucky in a way. If you look nationally, 179 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: you can always play the cycles if you're a serious investor, 180 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: and it's not just the house next door to your 181 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: own home. If you're a serious investor, you can look 182 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: at other states when you save in land tax because 183 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 2: you're your own home in those states, but also different 184 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: points of the market. The fact now that people who 185 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: have been living in Brisbane or Adelaide have had massive 186 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 2: gains in the last few years, more than coreter of 187 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: a million dollars each in their sort of median house 188 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: price games, whereas Melbourne and Hobart have literally done basically nothing. 189 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 2: I think that affects the view and I don't think 190 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: there's going to be a shortage of property investors coming up. 191 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: We've got half a million people coming into Australia every 192 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 2: year dreaming of a better life, and bricks and mortar 193 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: has been one of the best wealth creators in the 194 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: history of this country. 195 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: I think they used to see residential property doubles in 196 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: value every seven to ten years. They said that for 197 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: about fifty years. Don't say that anymore, do that. I 198 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: think that that's old hat. 199 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: Well, you think it is, given just the high price 200 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: of median prices everywhere, even in those cities that have 201 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: struggled in recent years. Get talking six seven, eight, nine 202 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars median value, and their prizes have grown 203 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: so much faster than real wages growth. It just makes 204 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: it harder and harder for people to get in there. 205 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: One of my properties, i'd spent nine years where it 206 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: went absolutely nowhere, but in the last five it's gone 207 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: up by fifty percent. And I just kept telling myself 208 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: for those nine years, it'll get good, it'll get good. 209 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: I have the view that you do invest in property, 210 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 2: you're only one property cycle away or boom away from 211 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: being really comfortable with it because your initial loan, even 212 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: if you haven't any paid anything off of the principle 213 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: of this investment loan. You've just made such a big 214 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: capital gain, which obviously there's tax issues later on and 215 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: those sorts of things, but more so than an eight 216 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollar property or versus one hundred thousand dollars 217 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: that you might put of your own money into shares. 218 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of pros and cons for both 219 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: of them. 220 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: So people they got bigger in property and they take 221 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: bigger loans, and maybe that's just part of it. I mean, 222 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: maybe if they went as big on shares and took 223 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: out loans on shares and negatively geared their shares, the 224 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: gap wouldn't be as big. 225 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're talking to me who still has post 226 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 2: traumatic stress from the global financial crisis. 227 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: When I did you mentioned this, it's obviously it's going 228 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: to be for life, but the. 229 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: Sing is for life when you're borrowed and in investment property. 230 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 2: And obviously property wasn't as expensive back then, but in 231 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: twenty ten, but I had borrowings of more than the 232 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: size of an investment property loan and watched it drop 233 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: by fifty five percent. 234 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: You were negatively geared into shares. Yes, it exaggerated the 235 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: difficulties it did. 236 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: And I was listening to the experts. I was a 237 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 2: financial writer back then, so I was talking to economists 238 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 2: and advisors every day, and they were saying, market's down 239 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: ten percent, is it it's time to buy Marcus? Down 240 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: fifteen percent, time to buy all It's down twenty percent, 241 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: it's not going any worse than this, and down fifty 242 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: five percent at the end. And it did get worse, 243 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: but it was the same as real estate, like I 244 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 2: went for the decade with no growth. You just sit 245 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: on it and eventually it comes back over time. 246 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: So you're a believer in the reversion to the mean. Yes, okay, now, folks, 247 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 1: We'll take a short break and then I'm going to 248 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: come back and we're going to talk about what Anthony 249 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: actually thinks about this issue of property versus shares. I 250 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: want to talk to him about the side he's come 251 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: down on and why olly back in the Hello and 252 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: welcome back to the Australians Money Puzzle podcast. James Kirby 253 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: here talking to Anthony Key, my colleague at News Corporation, 254 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: personal finance writer based out of Adelaide. And maybe that's 255 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: why he's so chirpy about property. Let's test him. So, Anthony, 256 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: in recent times, you have come down quite clearly on 257 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: one side over the other, property versus shares. Tell us 258 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: what your conclusion was and why you came to it. 259 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: It has been property, and it has been property for 260 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: twenty odd years. And as I said earlier experience during 261 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: the global financial crisis where I negatively geed into shares, 262 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: I actually double geed into shares at the time. If 263 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: I did not have a stable income at the time 264 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: and my wife didn't have a stable income, we would 265 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: have been in all sorts of trouble. 266 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: Did you literally get margin calls. 267 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: Or no, no margin calls because we were borrowing against it. 268 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 2: There was margin loans in there, but that was secure 269 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: against the property loans. So yes, it got pretty scary 270 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: and prett much. But that said, I'm a fan of shares, 271 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: like almost all of my superannuation is invested in ETF 272 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: shares through ETFs and that sort of thing. But I've 273 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: just found that property, and I have been criticized when 274 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 2: I've written this in columns before as well, that property. 275 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: I would always choose property over shares because number one, 276 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: as we spoke about earlier, the size. You spend half 277 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: a million dollars on a property, and that's cheap these days, 278 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: I know, But if it rises by ten percent, you've 279 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: just made fifty thousand dollars sitting there. I know that 280 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: anyone who's bought real estate in Brisbane or Adelaide or 281 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: Perth in recent years has made hundreds of thousands of 282 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: dollars per property just based on the rise of the 283 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: median home price there. So the gains are generally that 284 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: much bigger. But as you said, you can put half 285 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: a million dollars into the market and that sort of thing, 286 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: if you can stomach sort of that volatility. I really 287 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: believe you should have both. But if I had a choice, 288 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: it would be property. And I actually looked at the 289 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: only a week ago in a column the city I 290 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 2: would buy in, and your talk earlier about thirteen taxes 291 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: in Victoria's shaken up a little bit. But the fact 292 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: that Melbourne prices are just so low compared to where 293 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: they have been historically and versus the upper other capital cities. 294 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: If I had a spare eight hundred thousand or whatever, 295 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: or the capacity for aud it, which I don't, but 296 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: if I had that, it would certainly be looking in 297 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: that market, whether it's Melbourne or elsewhere in Victoria. But 298 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: prices they will have to revert back at some stays 299 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 2: the investors. You can't drive every investor out of the 300 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: second biggest city in the country. So there will be 301 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: changes of governments, there will be changes and things will happen. 302 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: I remember, yeah, a few years ago Hobart's prices were 303 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: just way ahead of Adelaide's. Adelaide was the lowest. And 304 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 2: now I've did some sort of numbers as well. Adelaide's 305 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 2: ahead of Melbourne for the average dwelling price and it's 306 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: about two hundred thousand dollars medium difference between Adelaide positively 307 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: compared to Hobad now. 308 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: So so just to clarify then, as you see, if 309 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: I demand the straight answers from you property versus shares, 310 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: you say property, Just tell us a little bit more 311 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: why property one? You know the poloctivity before. 312 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: Property and the security as well as an investor who 313 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: wants to grow their wealth, it is much easier to 314 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: borrow against a property, whether it's your own home or 315 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: even the equity you have in an investment property after 316 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: some growth, much easier and much cheaper, to the interest 317 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: rates are a heck of a lot cheaper. There are 318 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: obviously more holding costs when it comes to owning real estate, 319 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: which are all tax deductible, as is the cost such 320 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: as interest. 321 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: Obviously, there there's more work, isn't there, Anthony, I was saying, 322 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: it's just more literally labor hours. 323 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: Yes, And whenever the agent rings you, they're on you 324 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: to give them more money to do some repairs or 325 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. I don't want to count how 326 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: much I've spent on investment property sort of repair. 327 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: Everyone's been through that. I had a properly one time, 328 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: and there was a tenant therefore, I can't remember a 329 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: year or two and never asked for a single thing, 330 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: nothing whatsoever. And I remember thinking, oh, this is really good, 331 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 1: you know, just the place must be quite better than 332 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: I thought it was, because the months would go by, 333 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: two years, not a thing. Then the tenant left and 334 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: another tenant went in, and that tenant asked for something 335 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: every month. It was like they sat there and looked 336 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: around and tried to think of something. And I remember thinking, 337 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, it averaged out probably normal, probably averaged out 338 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: as a normal tenant, so that I had one tenant 339 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: that never complained and one tenant that never stopped complaining 340 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: the same place. So maybe we all have to go 341 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: through that. But it sounds to me like that aspect 342 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: of property, it doesn't weigh against you. You don't put 343 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: much into the easiness of We were talking about the 344 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: ETFs and never having to think basically set and forget, 345 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: which you can do to some extent of DFS. The 346 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: labor part of property, the documentation, the property management, the 347 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: tenant management, the huge documentation when it comes to buying 348 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: and selling property. That doesn't seem to wear against. 349 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: Chill, no, I think because it's such a long term investment. 350 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: I don't think I've sold an investment property for ten 351 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: years maybe or more so. It is it's not constant 352 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: that side of things, and it's just obviously people will 353 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 2: like to see and touch where their money is. It's well, 354 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: you can go and hug a shopping trolley at will 355 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: Wors if you own Woolworth shares, or touch the side 356 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: of your Commonwealth Bank built which is probably not owned 357 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: by them anyway. It's a property trust, but you could 358 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 2: see that. But shares are effectively, in old fashion term, 359 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: still a piece of paper whereas owning a house that's 360 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 2: giving somebody a roof over their head and allowing them 361 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: to have their pets and their family in this house. 362 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: It's the problem is property investors, I think in Australia 363 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: sort of become tall poppies and they're easy to have 364 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: a go at. 365 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: Well everybody has and who knows what your super etf 366 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: is investing in it. I mean, you happen to clue 367 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: the worst companies in the world by definition will be 368 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: included because they buy everything. So you can kind of 369 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: toss that one out the window pretty fast as an argument. 370 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: I'm digressing. Okay, Now, one thing that strikes me though, 371 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: despite your conviction that property is better than shares, you 372 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: don't have any property in your super, really, do you no? 373 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: And that's purely a factor of I've sought as an 374 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: investor to use residential real estate to grow, to grow 375 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: outside super and I see my super as I mean, 376 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: everyone wants to retire early and I've sort of been planning, 377 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: hoping for that, hoping slash planning for years and the 378 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: plan was to maybe sell a property or closer to retirement, 379 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 2: and then it's pretty easy to get money into a 380 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 2: super fun then just when you're on a full time 381 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 2: wage is probably not the time you want to be 382 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: selling an investment property and banking just having to pay 383 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: tens of thousand dollars in tax to time to do 384 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 2: that would be from a tax purpose. My view is 385 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 2: when you're not actually earning any other income, so then 386 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: that capital gain becomes your income for the year and 387 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: you're not being slugged a big chunk of any game 388 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: that you get. So I still do hope to hold 389 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: property in Super, but while my SUPER is not large enough, 390 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: it's all in shares just to have that diversification. I mean, 391 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: we talk about property versus shares, but really you should 392 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: have both. 393 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: Okay, And the negative gearing, of course is better outside 394 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: super than inside SUPER, and I'm sure that's part of Europe. 395 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, negative gearing is good. But I think that 396 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: the aim for every property investor should be to be 397 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: positively geared as soon as they can so by properties 398 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 2: that the rent is going to cover a lot of 399 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: a lot of the costs that you've got. It's become 400 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: harder obviously in the last three years when mortgage interest 401 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 2: rates have gone so high, but there are still opportunities 402 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 2: to get close, not to cover it completely, but there 403 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: was a heck of a lot of positively geared property 404 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: investors back before May twenty twenty two when reads through Yeah, 405 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 2: when race yeah, yes. So now obviously interest has become 406 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: their biggest by far their biggest cost. 407 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: With reads roughly twice yields very broadly in the metropolitan cities. Anyway, 408 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: is there positive gearing feasible? 409 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: It is, and this is just from personal experience. It 410 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 2: is to get pretty close to being positive, and you 411 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: only need to, as we said earlier, how these things 412 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: grow over time. What might have been a negatively geared 413 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: property five years ago when prices were much lower. As 414 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: we all know, rents have gone up a lot in 415 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: the last five years as well, that sort of contributing 416 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: and someone else is helping a property investor pay off 417 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: their mortgage. So it is possible. And as I said, 418 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: any property that's maybe been held for five or ten 419 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: years is probably going to be positively geed or getting 420 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: close to that, purely as a result of prices going up. 421 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: Of course, there are pockets where prices have gone nowhere 422 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: and interest rates have gone up, and I really feel 423 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 2: for those investors, and I've spoken to a few colleagues 424 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: over the years, and I think they experienced that in 425 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: certain states and they're selling out. So I'm just tired 426 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: of losing money. As we know, negative gearing is losing money. 427 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: You're only getting a proportion of that money back from 428 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: the tax office. 429 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: So as years go by, you're putting more and more 430 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: emphasis on the sale price that you're going to get. 431 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: Yes, you do, exactly, that's right, And I just think 432 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: that you've got to have a plan. I don't have 433 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 2: a direct plan I'm doing this at this age and 434 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: this at this age, but I do have a plan 435 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: that hopefully if I do get to that dream of 436 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: retiring a little bit earlier, to sell a property or 437 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 2: more and then get that money into super and maybe 438 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: use that for a property within Super purely because of 439 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: the benefits of superannuation gives you with you retire after 440 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: age sixty and you move it across to your sort 441 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: of account based pension and it's tax free capital gains. 442 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: It's just the biggest best deal that any investor can have, 443 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: I think, And with a lumpy asset like a residential 444 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 2: property or a commercial property or something like that, get 445 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: that game tax free in your sixties or seventies is 446 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: just huge. 447 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: So listeners, I think with Anthony, if you hear between 448 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: the linesbody's saying, obviously he does prefer property over shares. 449 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: There's a lot of issues to do with security there. 450 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: But there's a couple of issues. I think that's very 451 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: clear from this conversation. You're a serious long term investor, Anthony. 452 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: You're talking ten to fifteen years. That's a long time, 453 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: right With an investment, you like the property to be 454 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: outside Super because the tax benefits are better as you 455 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: are working to keep it outside Super. But once you 456 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: retire in retirement phase, your idea is to get those 457 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: properties to take advantage of the tax benefits inside tax 458 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: free retirement basically to the extent. 459 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: You can, yes, yes. And also I imagine if I 460 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: had more SUPER, I would probably be looking at it 461 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: more closely. But being an investor in property outside of 462 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: so to then use all of my SUPER to put 463 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: towards a property inside Super. And it's quite complex borrowing 464 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: within Super as well. It just it gets very messy, 465 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 2: and that's not really good diversification. Having a whole lot 466 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: of buzzy real estate outside Super and the only thing 467 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: you've got inside is the same thing. So you've missed 468 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 2: out on the global share market growth over the last 469 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: sort of ten years or five years if you take 470 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: that strategy. 471 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: Okay, we've got questions. Maybe back in a moment. Hello 472 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: and welcome back to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. James 473 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: Kirby here with Anthony Keane, regular guest person, finance writer 474 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: across NewsCorp and a guest who is not deliberating, is 475 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: not covering what'sor I'm looking for vacillating on this issue. 476 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: He is a property investor first and that's an interesting 477 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: point of view and very interesting because since I asked 478 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: you to come on the show, actually Anthony just pure serendipity. 479 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: Louise asks, I love the podcast with Kate. That would 480 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: have been Kate Becos, the buyer's advocate who was on 481 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: last week, and the talk around investing in shares versus property. 482 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: As someone who's had great luck with property, it's been 483 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: my go to. However, I'm finding it hard to stom 484 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: up investing again when the holding costs are forty six 485 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: hundred dollars a week for a standalone property around a 486 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: million dollar mark. I know it's possible to add value 487 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: to a property, which is why I prefer it over shares. 488 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: And it's actually I think the strongest argument Louise, But 489 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: she asks, at what point does that argument become redundant 490 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: when you can get ETFs to set and forget. I 491 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: telling you that is straight from the listener, Louise. It's 492 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: like we scripted it, but it's a genuine question that 493 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: came in. So what would you say to Louise Anthony. 494 00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: I'd like to know where the holding cost of four 495 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: to six hundred a week because that is that's getting 496 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 2: pretty scary, those sorts of levels. 497 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: And is that she's including big interest build there. 498 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, interest billed as well. But if it's including 499 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: interesting probably it may be a bit too low. Who knows. 500 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: But obviously there's rental income from a tenant coming in 501 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: and with pretty sort of tight rental markets, that's one 502 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: thing property investors haven't had to worry about in recent years, 503 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 2: is finding tenants. And it's true ETfr said and forget 504 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 2: and property is not. We're not sure where Louise is from, 505 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: so maybe her feelings are colored by the market in 506 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 2: her particular city over the last five years. It would 507 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: be a lot different if you were living in Melbourne 508 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: than if you were living in Brisbane. I would say 509 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 2: your views on property and also the outlook property is 510 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: as you said, it's great to add value to And 511 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: I think we covered a lot of the points earlier 512 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: when we were talking like discussing this. 513 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: We did it all for you, Louise. But it's a 514 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: very topical issue and question, and I think what Anthony 515 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: is saying is highly relevant. If you had been in Adelaide, 516 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: for instance, which was not a great market for long 517 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: stretches of time in the last five years. I mean, 518 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: it's so good it would color reviews. And similarly, if 519 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: you had been in Melbourne or even parts of Sydney 520 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: where your property is doing very little, your yield is 521 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: very low, your rates just went up, they would colory 522 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: review as well. All Right, we will move on. Thank you, Louise. 523 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: I hope the earlier segment of the show was useful 524 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: to you. I imagine it was, Lucas there's been an 525 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: increased talk of heavy market falls in world markets. I'd 526 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: love to hear more advice on steps you can take 527 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: to be prepared for this. In particular, what are the 528 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: opportunities and how can you take advantage of a crash. 529 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: Longtime listener, first time country Abuti, Thanks Lucas. Okay, broadly, 530 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: very broadly. Obviously, the rolling answer is diversification, and that 531 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: just as we were talking about Anthony and I a 532 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: minute ago about having properly in shares that you want. 533 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: Let's forget about the tax structures for a moment, but 534 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: just if you look back at what Anthony was saying, 535 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: he has properly he has shares, He has diversified shares 536 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: all around the world in all sorts of markets because 537 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: he's in ETFs. So you have that diversification, and I 538 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: think that's absolutely rock bottom. How you defend yourself. So 539 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: it turns out when things are going badly or they're 540 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: of concern, then you have on listed assets, maybe you 541 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: have some securitized that, maybe you have some gold, maybe 542 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: you have some cash. That part of your investment portfolio 543 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: is robust, resilient. Part of it is risk free. You 544 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about when the share market falls 545 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: vice versa. When the share market's red hot, you've got 546 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: the sphere of missing out. You have shares and you 547 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: have risk assets that will move up with the markets 548 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: when the market's moving up, so you have that diversity, Lucas, 549 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: I think is seriously rock bottom. The answer to your 550 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: question as for taking advice when there's a crash and 551 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: taking advantage of when there's a crash, this is never advised. 552 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: It's information only. But as we're taking advantage when there's 553 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: a crash, again, textbook would suggest the answer is to 554 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,479 Speaker 1: have cash. Cash is king when the markets crash, but 555 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: cash is expensive when the market's doing average because you're 556 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: not going to get as good a return as shares. 557 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: So that's the sort of fine balance. I think, what 558 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: do you think, Anthony. 559 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 2: Yes, I agree when I saw that question. The two 560 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: things that I wrote down as far as being prepared 561 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: for it is be prepared not to panic, don't mainly 562 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: jerk reactions with these sorts of things. I think we 563 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: saw the share market sink ten percent in the matter 564 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: of weeks in here and also in the US, and 565 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: it would bounce back a little bit since then. But 566 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: and the experts, I'm often told by experts you only 567 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 2: make a loss when you sell if you're not panicking, 568 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: you're staying the course and you're sticking to your long 569 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 2: term plan. Whether that's hold it for five years or 570 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: ten years, oh whatever. Don't panic because these things are 571 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: completely normal. Ups and downs are very normal. And the 572 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: other thing as far as taking advantage is, as you said, 573 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: keep some cash available or if you've got a mortgage 574 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: and you've got cash, is better working off that have 575 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: some money in your regional facility. If ready to pounce, 576 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: then it becomes a timing issue. Do your pounds if 577 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 2: it falls by ten percent or do you wait and 578 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: see if it falls by fifteen or twenty percent? You 579 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: don't know. I've read something today in the Australian where 580 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: one of the most respected economists in Australia was saying 581 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: it could quite possibly be a fifteen percent fall here. 582 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: So you just keep an eye on that sort of 583 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 2: stuff and hope that if you buy in a fifteen 584 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: percent it doesn't go to fifty five percent. 585 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 3: Trauma, trauma from the GFC is kicking through again. By 586 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: the way, what's worth knowing what any's talking about here. 587 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 3: It was the great crash of the Great Recession of 588 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 3: the GFC. 589 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: If you are lucky enough to be young enough not 590 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: to be familiar with this, and what happened was the 591 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: share market. The Australian share market at all market's piked 592 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: November two or seven, and as Anthony says, they fell 593 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: fifty percent after that. For what was even almost more 594 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: difficult than the fact that they fell fifty percent, was 595 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: they took two years to do it. So it's slowly 596 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: ground down from the peak in November two or seven 597 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: to the bottom in March two oh nine. But it 598 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: was worse than a crash, wasn't it, Anthony, because it 599 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: just it was never obvious. There was little four starts. 600 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, and I swear down yes, I'm doing 601 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: research on up until then. The big crash we'd had 602 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: was the nineteen eighty seven massive crash, but in the 603 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: prese that had doubled in twelve months and then halved again, 604 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: so it literally you've only lost twelve months again, whereas 605 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: the GFC people had lost years and years of gains, 606 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: and then it took a good decade or more for 607 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: the All Ordinaries Index to get to it recover November 608 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven levels as well. So don't panic. 609 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: Keep some powder dry, ready to dive in when you 610 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: think it's right. But I wouldn't dive in, go all in, 611 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: because at any time you never want to go all 612 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: in on anything. I now entrepreneurs will disagree and say 613 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: that the big, massive bet that they've made is paid 614 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 2: off in big time. But there's a lot more that 615 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: it hasn't than there are those who have. 616 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: They only tell you about the bets that win. I've 617 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: never seen anybody in the paper saying I took a 618 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: massive bet and I lost all right, as you say, 619 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: a measured approach dollar cost averaging. As we've often mentioned 620 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: on the show, final statement of all the questions from 621 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: Andrew and I make the point that Andrew operates out 622 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: of north Haven, which is in Adelaide, and he says 623 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: I right. With regards to your podcast on the fifteenth 624 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: of October where you were aghast that Melbourne property prices 625 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: were on a part with Adelaide despite Melbourne having five 626 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: million people, Yes, I was aghast economically, Andrew that a 627 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: city of five million that houses in that city should 628 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: be considerably lower than houses in another city. What's the 629 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: population of Adelaide. 630 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 2: Roughly one point five I believe, and not a lot 631 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: over one point five. 632 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: So eclonumbists would suggest that the bigger city you think 633 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: about it, splinder Man, should be more expensive and traditionally 634 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: for one hundred years, perhaps two hundred years, that has 635 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: been the case. Anyway, Andrew says there's two reasons, actually, James, 636 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: you've missed them. There's two reasons. One Melbourne is a 637 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: and there's a well known expletive here which basically says 638 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: it's not a nice place at all. So he runs 639 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: Melbourne down badly as the most unattractive location. And then 640 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: he says Melbourneians are both ignorant and arrogant and have 641 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: a chip on their collective shoulder and they think the 642 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: cafe culture is the standout in Australia. Well, I don't know. 643 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: I think about that. It was entirely an economic observation. 644 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 1: What do you think's been based? 645 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 2: It was very entertaining question. I doing that a lot 646 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: of South Australians and I am one of them. We 647 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: still have a chip on our shoulder about Melbourne stealing 648 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 2: our Grand Prix for years ago. 649 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: We stole it and stole it. Well we are. 650 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: There's chips on shoulders all over the place. But as 651 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: I said earlier, if I was to pick one city 652 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 2: to invest in now with real estate, I would choose 653 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: Melbourne purely because I've never seen anything like that. The 654 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: latest figures from prop Track, the average dwelling price in 655 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: Adelaide is now eight hundred and forty nine thousand, and 656 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: in Melbourne it's seven hundred and ninety three thousand. So 657 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 2: not only is it on a par Adelaide's gone fifty 658 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: grand ahead of Melbourne. And I just can't see that 659 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: staying forever. No matter what various governments try to do 660 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: to destroy or spruce up property markets. I just think 661 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 2: that eventually we will revert to the fact where our 662 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 2: biggest cities have our most expensive houses. And that's just 663 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: based on your twenty or thirty years of following this so. 664 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: Just could be a lifetime of expertise. 665 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: It could be wrong, but yes. 666 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: Okay Andrews, you heard it here first. But take you 667 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: very much for correspondence, and keep them ruling folks, and 668 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: keep sending the voice memos to love to get them. 669 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: The first few have come in. We really like them. 670 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: When you're doing your voice memo, remember you can write 671 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: to us on an email or if you like, just 672 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: do a voice memo. And when you're doing the voice memo, 673 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: just keep it short, you know, thirty seconds. So that's 674 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: just for broadcasting purposes for collecting them. Let's have some more. 675 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: Let me tell you the people who come in first 676 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: with the voice members will get published and I will 677 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: deal with their answers. Okay, that's a promise. So if 678 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: you really want to make sure your question gets answered, 679 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: try a voice membo. All right, Thank you very much, 680 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: Anthony Keen. Great to have you on the show again. 681 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: Thanks James, great to be here. 682 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: You're going into the lock up? Yes, do you think 683 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: you're going to have enough to do? 684 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 2: I think yes. They keep me pretty busy. I'm trying 685 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 2: to work out how many I've done. I think I'm 686 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: over twenty five federal budgets now, somewhere around the twenty 687 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: five mark. I think I reckon from the late nineties. 688 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: I started as a business wrider going into budgets, and 689 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 2: I don't think i've missed one since then. 690 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: You're not from the vintage that remembers bringing typewriters into 691 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: the lockdowp are you ye? 692 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:53,879 Speaker 2: Typewriters? 693 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: Now? 694 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 2: I am from the vintage where we had to share 695 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: computer screens in the afternoon approaching deadline. So oh, they're big, 696 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: huge behind the Fords in the newsroom waiting for that. 697 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: Yes, are you finished? Excuse me, are you finished that? Story? 698 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: I do have this one I must put through in 699 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: the next hour. Yes, I've I had a little bit 700 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: of that, just a little bit of that in Hong 701 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: Kong of old places that. Yeah, I don't listen. Okay, 702 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: Thanks Anthony, Thanks everyone for listening. Thank you Leah Samaglue 703 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 1: for producing today's show. Talk to you soon.