WEBVTT - The unsolved murders of Lynette White and Maria Smith: Candice Fox Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.840 Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her. 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.040 I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.760 five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.280 I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.040 I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.919 the public into the world in which I operated. The 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.560 guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.280 all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.760 just like the people I talk to. Some of the 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.959 content and language might be confronting. That's because no one 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.360 who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:46.600 me now as I take you into this world. Welcome 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.120 back to part two of an entertaining chat I had 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.040 with award winning fictional crime author Candice Fox. We're going 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.160 to talk more about her extensive and strange research that 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.160 she does to write her books, and how she's finding 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.760 in the ovlap between fiction and true crime, and two 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:08.400 unsolved murders that have had a dramatic impact on her canvas. Fox, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.679 Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:12.680 Thanks for having me well. 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:14.640 I'm having some fun, but I'm going to hit you 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.280 up with a really hard question. I've been doing this 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.840 for years now, probably have had hundreds of guests on 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.479 and I've never asked this question. And yeah, I do 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.800 ask prabing questions. Sometimes tell me about your honeymoon? What 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:31.600 did you get up to? 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:34.720 So I got to explain you. 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.000 Put it in context, otherwise this sounds weird. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.640 So I have this super normal husband, Tim, He's a 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:44.760 very regular guy. He has beautiful, gentle parents. They have 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.640 a lovely home, cream carpet, pastel, art on the walls. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.240 Him and his brother and his sister, they all had 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:54.560 a lovely children, and they get on really well. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:54.800 You know. 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.680 And then he's married me and I have become in 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.880 that family, just the family freak, the widow. You know, 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.800 I'm leaving and I'm leaving Sunday lunch because I've got 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.359 to go and rescue a wallaby at fall in someone's pool, 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.360 or you know, I've got to take a phone call 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.560 from you know, this person in this true crime and 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.720 they've just accepted me as the family wido, and he 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.720 has accepted me as his weido wife. So you know, 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.320 I say on our honeymoon. We were on a driving 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.960 tour of the east coast of the US and he said, 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:34.320 what do you want to do? You know, this is 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.520 where we're going. We're going from the Florida Keys up 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.120 to Maine. What do you want to do? And I said, well, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.919 there are so many body dumping sites that I want 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:46.320 to visit. All along romantic, I know, and he's like, okay, 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:48.200 all right, Well, as long as we can go some 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.960 dive bars and watch some baseball. And you know, because 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:53.600 he's that's the kind of thing easing to. He loves 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:57.920 big beautiful industrial areas at sunlight that they're pouring smoke 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.720 and it's you know, it's New Jersey or whatever. That's 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.520 what he loves. And he loves a filthy dive bar 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.800 where you walk in and everyone everyone looks, you know, 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.120 and it's really low lit. And he loves going to 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.360 the baseball And I love tromping through the bush trying 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.120 to find a particular log where someone's body was found. 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.519 And we did that. I said, there was this murder 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.519 case in Maine and I said, you know it's supposed 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.680 to where the guy found the body, stumbled across the body. 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.920 He's here it's supposed to be one hundred and twenty 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.440 three feet from the roadside. I want to go there. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.440 I want to stand in that spot, and I want 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.480 to look at the road and say, you know, did 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.560 he stumble across his body or not? And I want 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:44.880 to go, you know, to where the Manson family murders happened. 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:46.440 And I want to go and look at that. You know, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:47.840 when we fly in, we'll go and look at that. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.400 And there was a serial killer at that time who 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.080 was running around Long Island and dumped all these bodies, 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.320 the Gilgo Beach killer. They've caught him, but at that 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.480 time they hadn't caught him, and he dumped all these bodies. 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.480 There are seventeen bodies found along this this desolate roadway. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:05.840 And I said, I want to go there. I want 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:07.240 to stand there. I want to look. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.600 You know, is this okay? Well you've explained what you 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.400 got up to in your honeymoon. It sounds great, accepting. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.359 Is this the type of research you've got to do 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.000 to be able to write the novels that you do 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:25.159 Now you're successful, Aufer, So whatever formula you got is working. 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.640 Is this the type of meticulous research you do? 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.719 You don't have to do it, but I think it's good, 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.360 you know, to have these experiences to get out and 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.400 that's you know. I was on my honeymoon. I was multitasking, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:42.320 so while we were driving from here to there, I 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.960 was like, let's stop in, let's look. And I stood there, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.240 you know, and my husband's standing nearby, going so, do 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.680 you want some time alone or what? You know, He's 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.360 not that into it, but I just wanted to feel it. 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.479 I wanted to feel the wind going past in this 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:00.479 beach and think about this killer dropping this body off 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.680 and try to get into that mindset. But you know, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.160 it's like why here? Why then? What can you see? 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:09.719 What can you smell? What can you feel? You might 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.520 feel the same thing like I. 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.240 Do understand what you're saying in that. If I'm investigating 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:16.840 a murder, I like to go to the crime soon. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.360 I like to be there around the time, if it's 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.760 at night or whatever, getting a sense of what's gone on. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:27.480 But I was a homicide detect Yeah, yeah, I do 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.440 understand from a writing point of view, like I'm understanding 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.760 the writing world a little bit more now. My writing 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.120 when I was in the place was the facts. These 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.240 are the facts man, bang bang bang. So I understand 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.000 creating that, creating that atmosphere. In fact, when I first 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.760 started writing, I've got advice from a few people, Dan Box, 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.000 Clear Harvey on it. You've got to create the atmosphere 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.760 a little bit like my writing was Okay, at such 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.920 and such a time, we did this, But okay, when 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.800 you turned up, what was the hot day? A cold day? 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.320 Was a windblowing? What did house like? What color were 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.000 the tiles of the house? Yeah, it was at the 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.960 red brick house. And I understand that that descriptive. So 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.520 if you want authenticity in your book, I can understand 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.479 your need to visit these crime scenes and understand. And 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.480 there is an areous eeriness about them, isn't it. If 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:19.839 you've been there, you do sort of sit there and think, oh, 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:21.080 this is a horror. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.599 Yeah. It's like when I was looking at Lawrence's hands 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:25.240 and I was like, these are the hands. I was like, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.640 this is the spot. Ye you know, But for me, 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.200 where it kind of crosses over or where there is 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:35.479 a line and I cannot seem to find that line 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:41.600 is where does it become exploitative or voyeuristic? You know, 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:46.400 this interest that we have because people are desperately interested 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:53.680 in these true crimes. We cannot deny that the mushroom saga, Yeah, 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.960 lit up the entire nation. It was all anyone could 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.679 talk about. Yeah. But then you go that ex step 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.720 and you're, you know, doing the Wikipedia dive and you're 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.080 going down and you start to get this creepy feeling like, oh, 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.160 it's it's it's sick. What what I'm you know? And 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.880 I think that sometimes people misinterpret that about me because 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.400 I have this bright, bubbly nature that I'm fascinated in 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.120 these crimes in an entertaining way. But what I am 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.760 is disturbed by them so badly that I want to 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.880 go deep down in there and try to get in 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.240 the mindset to understand why why did you do this? 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:34.520 And for two years I was hammering I was hammering 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.200 Lawrence and saying why, why, what led you to it? 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:37.440 Why? 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.160 And I didn't come out with any further understanding of 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.600 what drove him to that because he was just like 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.400 you say, depthless, there's nothing in their blank. So I 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.640 was I was entering new moral gray areas. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.560 I can see how you get morally conflicted by it. 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.680 But there's been a lot of progress in catchingerial killers, 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.400 like from the mind Hunter days with John Douglas and 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:09.480 Burgess profiling the serial killers and understanding where they're coming. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.160 From, and that's from talking to them, from actually talking 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.120 to them, you know. And school shooters I think as well, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.320 what ends up happening is that they die in the 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.160 firefight and you don't get to have them sit down 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.360 and say this was the progression, this is the point 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.600 at which I reached no return And there should be 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.680 more interviewing. I feel, you know, there should be more 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.880 interviewing of that and understanding pedophiles as well, and saying 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.760 what was the point at which you crossed over? And 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.000 they have done a lot of work with pedophiles to 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.520 say what kind of victim were you looking for? And 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.320 then translate out, you know, to parents to say, to 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:53.960 teach your child, this is the kind of things that 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.080 you might be asked to do or say, or this 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.079 is the kind of victim they're looking for. They're looking 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.319 for a victim where the parents aren't invested the vulnerable 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.120 and so hanging over the top of our kid all 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.080 the time, the teacher can see in that kind. 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:11.040 Of well, I think they shy away from it. They 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.360 look for the easy mark and invariably it's kids that 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.920 come from a troubled background are the easiest targets for pedophiles. 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.959 On the loan shooters and the school shootings and all that, 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.520 we had am Bergers on the podcast, so I was 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.280 wrapped to have her on, Like I used to follow 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.000 what they were doing very early in my homicide career. 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.480 But she was saying I think I'm correct here and 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.600 saying that her daughter's doing work now and part of 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.280 the work that they're looking like they've done a lot 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.400 of studies on serial kills, but now they're looking at 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.959 those loan actors and try the mass shooters and trying 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.920 to understand that because that seems to be where crime's 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:51.000 going or the horror of crime serial killing has I 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.840 think might be naive but being reduced in part because 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.120 of the police technology DNA and all that, it's easier 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.240 to link crimes. Only in the past week there was 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.800 we're after on the investigation I worked on years ago. 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:09.559 It was a Central Coast rapist, a Cereal rapist, and 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.800 he was locked up from some DNA and that was 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.520 at least over twenty years ago. We're looking for that 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:23.000 person he raped sexually assaulted five people around the Central Coast, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.840 and they were linked for various reasons. But I heard note, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:30.320 I've spoken to a few people that were involved in it. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.120 He's seventy three year old man's been locked up and 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.080 that's great. Yeah, yeah, but he could get away with 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.760 it for so long and they were violent, violent crimes, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.960 and now he's been being charged with the offenses. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.679 Yeah, so that's so great to get him right at 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:46.880 the end. That's the dream I think. You know, you 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.960 see the Golden State Killer where they came to his 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.080 door and he's a grandfather and he was a cop 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.400 at the time, and it's like knock knock. 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:55.800 Ye. 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.560 You know, you weren't expecting these, were you. 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:02.240 I love the fact that when they get to the 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.080 cold case, unsold thomicide or whatever locked people up years 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:07.920 down the track because they thought they've got a way 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.640 of it. And yeah, it's horrible, they've got a wave 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.439 of it for so long. But I'd like to think 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.320 anyone that's committed those type of crimes as Sitney there 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.920 in fear waiting for a knock on the door. That 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.760 was in your author's note at the back of the book. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.600 With the book it's interesting, and I really when I 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.120 started looking at it, I was very curious, how are 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.800 you going to word this? In the introduction to the book, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.720 I just read something about so we're talking about red 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.880 belly crossing here, and some of the characters and events 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.880 you'll read about in the following pages are born out 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:45.960 of the personal connection I've had to a pair of 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.800 murders that happened in Sydney's Eastern Beaches in nineteen seventy 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.240 three and nineteen seventy four. The victims, Lynette White and 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.040 Maria Smith, who were brutally killed in their homes by 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.280 persons unknown. Lynette was a new mother, Maria was a 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.920 new wife, and they had their whole lives ahead of them. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.040 I wrote this novel which reimagined that some of the 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.520 aspects of those real crimes is a response to the 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.480 horror and heartache I discovered whilst researching those killings and 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:17.240 meeting the families of the murdered women. So that tells 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.680 me that with all the fictional crime writing, you do 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:25.560 understand the pain of murder a homicide, when someone's life 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.080 is taken expand on. That's how have you weave that 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:30.200 into the book? 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.119 So this happened, this whole book and this whole experience 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.760 meeting Lynette and Maria's husbands. It came out at this 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:42.000 moment where I was sitting at home. My husband's on 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.440 the couch, I'm in the armchair, and my daughter, Violet 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.520 was one and a half at the time, and she's 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.080 running around the house and she's just wearing a nappy 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.200 and a top hat and carrying a toy briefcase. And 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.520 I said to Tim, she looks like a little daughter 0:12:55.600 --> 0:13:00.200 door salesman. And as I said it, like a it 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.920 felt like a drawer popped open in my brain and 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.080 a memory was there waiting, And it's like if you 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.400 hear the jingle to a kid's show. You haven't heard 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.080 that seeing that kid's show since you were three. You go, oh, 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.000 I remember, you have all the words. Yeah. The memory 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.800 was of my mother saying to me, she's leaving me 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.600 at home for the first time alone, which is quite 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.160 an event seeing as there were so many kids, you know, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.960 in the house. She was saying to me, don't open 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.840 the door to strangers, you know, if anyone knocks, just hide, 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.400 Because I opened the door once on someone when I 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.640 was a teenager and he ended up being a killer, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.040 and that was a story she would tell every now 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.600 and then I knocked on the door. The guy was 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.720 a killer. I didn't let him in, and I thought, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.679 as I've had sitting here having this memory, I thought, oh, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.200 that's like a cautionary tale. And my mother's told me 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:55.080 don't open the door, because once I did it, it 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.560 was a murderer. So but I told Tim, and Tim 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.840 was like your mother a you know, and he just 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.840 went back to his crossroad. And I thought, no, there's 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:04.800 something in this I want to know, because I remembered 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.559 funny little details like she said that the guy said 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.160 that he was an encyclopedia salesman, and that sounded too 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.080 specific for a cautionary tale. So I texted her and 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.199 I said, having this memory, was that real? 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.280 Was that just bullshit? You want to tell me you 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.680 know when I was a kid. And she said, no, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.480 it's real. It's a real case. Two women were murdered 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.360 in the neighborhood. And I don't think they ever caught 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:29.720 the guy. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.520 And I went what And I called her. I said, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:37.560 what are you talking about? She said, oh, yeah, the 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.360 guy came to the door. I was home alone. I 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.720 was seventeen. Her father had just died, so that puts 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:45.720 a timeline on it, like a couple of weeks before 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.080 her father. So this is April nineteen seventy four, and 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.800 everyone was up at the funeral home. I was home alone. 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.440 He knocks. She opens the big wooden door, but not 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.600 the screen door. He's standing there and he says, oh, hi, 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.200 I must an encyclopedia. Say when I'm going door to door, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.640 I was wondering if I could talk to you about encyclopedias. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:06.200 And they're having a nice little chit chat through the screen, 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.440 and as they are, she said she just got this 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.320 full body rush of all the hairs on her arms 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.440 stood on end, and she's thinking, why isn't he carrying anything. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.840 He's got no briefcase, no top hat, no pamphlets, no nothing. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.880 He's just a dude standing there. And she said he 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.080 also looked very casually dressed for a daughter store salesman 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.120 who's wearing a zip up jacket and tan pants, and 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.440 he had sort of like longish hair. Anyway, she made 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:40.040 an excuse because she was having this feeling and said, oh, 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:41.800 I've got to ask my dad. And it's really supposed 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:43.600 to open the door to people, Hey dad, And as 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:47.040 she's called out, hey dad, he just too quickly and 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.560 walked and I said, well, what are these unsold cases 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.400 you're talking about? And she said, oh, oh, well one 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.160 of them. The girl went to my school, actually, Maria McGuinn, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.560 and I'm googling it and I've go on, oh my god, mom, 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.560 this is These are two unsolved homicides. There's a million 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:10.120 dollar reward on both of them. They're you know, I said, 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.080 you could be the missing piece of the puzzle. You've 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.280 seen the guy. Nobody else has seen the guy, you know. 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:18.720 And she's like, oh, you're making a big deal. And 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.600 I said, well it is number one. There's this you 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.480 might be the key to a fifty year old serial 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.240 killing and number two. For the last eight years or something, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.360 I've been trying to be the foremost crime writer in 0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:30.960 the country. Do you think you could have mentioned it 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.360 at any point that. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.440 You've had this new two valid points? 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.400 Yeah, I mean you know, I said, did you ever 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.040 talk to the police and said no. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:39.960 Oh. 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.120 I said, I'm going to come over here tomorrow. Whatever 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.560 you do in the interim, do not google it. You might, 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.880 but I'm not a police interviewer. So I'm thinking to myself, 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:53.240 even by bringing it up and discussing it with her, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.360 maybe I'm corrupting her memory. So she came over and 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.560 I said, tell me the story, give me the description, 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.960 and asked some basic questions that I thought I should ask. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.919 I said, did you notice an accent? No, what age 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.240 was he? What did his hair look like that? What? 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.159 What did he say exactly? And I wrote it all 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.240 up and I sent it to the police and they 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.359 A detective came back and he said, you know, tell 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.680 me more. So I told him a bit more and 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.960 he said, yeah, that sounds like him. But you know, 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.639 without like a name or a number plate, there's not 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.960 much I can really do with it. So I'm going, 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.160 what what do you mean There's nothing could do it like. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.040 It wasn't enough for me. I'm that person who's always like, well, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.480 but but you know, and the arrogance and naivety what 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.240 was talking about earlier. I was thinking, I have been 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.200 called upon to do something about this, and this is 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.560 not enough, you know what you're saying here and then, 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.720 and so I thought, okay, that's it. Step aside, everyone, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.040 I'm going to solve this myself. I'm going to get 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.000 a podcast. I'm going to investigate it. I'm going to 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.240 be the new Headley Thomas watch this, you know. So 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.879 I wrangled some friends together. I'm like, let's make a podcast. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.600 Let's make a podcast. And in the meantime, I'm at 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:16.240 Google how to solve a homicide? You know, and I 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:20.520 realized very quickly that that is not as easy as 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.879 it is to be. It's like a whole profession. 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:24.720 They've just shocked a lot of people. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.240 Like, but this is how it would go in fiction, 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.440 is the protagonist would be called upon by some strange 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.920 things that comes up, and they would get involved, and 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.840 you know, three days later, bingo bango, it's all solved. No, 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.840 that is not what happens. So I did some fiddling around. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.120 You know. For example, one of the things that has 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.200 come out in the more recent investigations of Maria's murder 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.960 is they're looking for this mustard colored Forward Capri with 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.159 a black racing stripe. So I've got some contacts together, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.560 and I got some at Ford and I was saying, 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.000 I'm investigating a homicide. Can you tell me how many 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:10.040 must colored Ford Capris there were in Australia between you know, 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.760 nineteen seventy and nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, I can help 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:13.080 you with that. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:13.800 No worries yet. 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:15.440 We'll get I'll get back to you very very soon. 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.479 Never heard from them again. And what authority do I 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.000 have to say? I'm a crime fiction writer. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:22.400 Do you know who I am? Yeah? 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.760 Do you know who I am? Please answer these questions. 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.720 So now I'm in this space where the podcast situation 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.720 hasn't worked. I'm no good at being a homicide detective 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.720 in real life. I can only do it in fiction. 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.200 And I'm just sitting around and talking to everyone who'll listen. 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.760 And I said to my agent, you know, a couple 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:42.840 of years had passed at this point. We're trying. We're 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.200 trying or trying. I said to my agent, I feel 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:52.520 like my talent lies in writing crime fiction. Maybe I 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.639 could write a fictional novel, you know that kind of 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.440 reimagines aspects of the case. And she's saying, that is 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.120 a terrible idea, because you're going to upset you know. Yeah, yeah, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:07.720 And I mean this has really happened. Stephen King wrote 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:13.119 a short story inspired by Dennis Raider BTK. Yeah, and 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.399 he was imagining it from the perspective of the wife 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.440 and the family and all this you find out, hey, 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.840 dad's a serial killer, and that really had a terrible 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.359 effect on Dennis Raider's daughter, As she said, I felt, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.320 I felt exploited. I said, they want my agent, Well 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:29.880 what if? 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:30.480 Right? 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:35.720 I met the families of Lynette and Maria, and I said, 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.120 is this okay? You know, and I'm having further ideas. 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.240 I'm saying, you know, I've got whenever I bring a 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.440 book out, I'm talking to thousands of people. I'm in 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.040 libraries and I'm on the radio, and maybe I can 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.960 spread the word because there are very practical questions that 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.400 the police want to know. They want to know who 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.720 lived in those apartment buildings at that time, you know, 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.399 they want to know who owned a Ford. You know, 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.760 I can ask practical questions of my audience. So why 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:10.040 don't I go and meet Lynette and Maria's families and 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.040 ask permission? And my agent was like, you have had 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.840 some bad ideas in your time. This really takes the cake. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.639