Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.
Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty
Speaker 1: five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what
Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to part two of an entertaining chat I had
Speaker 1: with award winning fictional crime author Candice Fox. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk more about her extensive and strange research that
Speaker 1: she does to write her books, and how she's finding
Speaker 1: in the ovlap between fiction and true crime, and two
Speaker 1: unsolved murders that have had a dramatic impact on her canvas. Fox,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well.
Speaker 1: I'm having some fun, but I'm going to hit you
Speaker 1: up with a really hard question. I've been doing this
Speaker 1: for years now, probably have had hundreds of guests on
Speaker 1: and I've never asked this question. And yeah, I do
Speaker 1: ask prabing questions. Sometimes tell me about your honeymoon? What
Speaker 1: did you get up to?
Speaker 2: So I got to explain you.
Speaker 1: Put it in context, otherwise this sounds weird.
Speaker 2: So I have this super normal husband, Tim, He's a
Speaker 2: very regular guy. He has beautiful, gentle parents. They have
Speaker 2: a lovely home, cream carpet, pastel, art on the walls.
Speaker 2: Him and his brother and his sister, they all had
Speaker 2: a lovely children, and they get on really well.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And then he's married me and I have become in
Speaker 2: that family, just the family freak, the widow. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm leaving and I'm leaving Sunday lunch because I've got
Speaker 2: to go and rescue a wallaby at fall in someone's pool,
Speaker 2: or you know, I've got to take a phone call
Speaker 2: from you know, this person in this true crime and
Speaker 2: they've just accepted me as the family wido, and he
Speaker 2: has accepted me as his weido wife. So you know,
Speaker 2: I say on our honeymoon. We were on a driving
Speaker 2: tour of the east coast of the US and he said,
Speaker 2: what do you want to do? You know, this is
Speaker 2: where we're going. We're going from the Florida Keys up
Speaker 2: to Maine. What do you want to do? And I said, well,
Speaker 2: there are so many body dumping sites that I want
Speaker 2: to visit. All along romantic, I know, and he's like, okay,
Speaker 2: all right, Well, as long as we can go some
Speaker 2: dive bars and watch some baseball. And you know, because
Speaker 2: he's that's the kind of thing easing to. He loves
Speaker 2: big beautiful industrial areas at sunlight that they're pouring smoke
Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's New Jersey or whatever. That's
Speaker 2: what he loves. And he loves a filthy dive bar
Speaker 2: where you walk in and everyone everyone looks, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's really low lit. And he loves going to
Speaker 2: the baseball And I love tromping through the bush trying
Speaker 2: to find a particular log where someone's body was found.
Speaker 2: And we did that. I said, there was this murder
Speaker 2: case in Maine and I said, you know it's supposed
Speaker 2: to where the guy found the body, stumbled across the body.
Speaker 2: He's here it's supposed to be one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: three feet from the roadside. I want to go there.
Speaker 2: I want to stand in that spot, and I want
Speaker 2: to look at the road and say, you know, did
Speaker 2: he stumble across his body or not? And I want
Speaker 2: to go, you know, to where the Manson family murders happened.
Speaker 2: And I want to go and look at that. You know,
Speaker 2: when we fly in, we'll go and look at that.
Speaker 2: And there was a serial killer at that time who
Speaker 2: was running around Long Island and dumped all these bodies,
Speaker 2: the Gilgo Beach killer. They've caught him, but at that
Speaker 2: time they hadn't caught him, and he dumped all these bodies.
Speaker 2: There are seventeen bodies found along this this desolate roadway.
Speaker 2: And I said, I want to go there. I want
Speaker 2: to stand there. I want to look.
Speaker 1: You know, is this okay? Well you've explained what you
Speaker 1: got up to in your honeymoon. It sounds great, accepting.
Speaker 1: Is this the type of research you've got to do
Speaker 1: to be able to write the novels that you do
Speaker 1: Now you're successful, Aufer, So whatever formula you got is working.
Speaker 1: Is this the type of meticulous research you do?
Speaker 2: You don't have to do it, but I think it's good,
Speaker 2: you know, to have these experiences to get out and
Speaker 2: that's you know. I was on my honeymoon. I was multitasking,
Speaker 2: so while we were driving from here to there, I
Speaker 2: was like, let's stop in, let's look. And I stood there,
Speaker 2: you know, and my husband's standing nearby, going so, do
Speaker 2: you want some time alone or what? You know, He's
Speaker 2: not that into it, but I just wanted to feel it.
Speaker 2: I wanted to feel the wind going past in this
Speaker 2: beach and think about this killer dropping this body off
Speaker 2: and try to get into that mindset. But you know,
Speaker 2: it's like why here? Why then? What can you see?
Speaker 2: What can you smell? What can you feel? You might
Speaker 2: feel the same thing like I.
Speaker 1: Do understand what you're saying in that. If I'm investigating
Speaker 1: a murder, I like to go to the crime soon.
Speaker 1: I like to be there around the time, if it's
Speaker 1: at night or whatever, getting a sense of what's gone on.
Speaker 1: But I was a homicide detect Yeah, yeah, I do
Speaker 1: understand from a writing point of view, like I'm understanding
Speaker 1: the writing world a little bit more now. My writing
Speaker 1: when I was in the place was the facts. These
Speaker 1: are the facts man, bang bang bang. So I understand
Speaker 1: creating that, creating that atmosphere. In fact, when I first
Speaker 1: started writing, I've got advice from a few people, Dan Box,
Speaker 1: Clear Harvey on it. You've got to create the atmosphere
Speaker 1: a little bit like my writing was Okay, at such
Speaker 1: and such a time, we did this, But okay, when
Speaker 1: you turned up, what was the hot day? A cold day?
Speaker 1: Was a windblowing? What did house like? What color were
Speaker 1: the tiles of the house? Yeah, it was at the
Speaker 1: red brick house. And I understand that that descriptive. So
Speaker 1: if you want authenticity in your book, I can understand
Speaker 1: your need to visit these crime scenes and understand. And
Speaker 1: there is an areous eeriness about them, isn't it. If
Speaker 1: you've been there, you do sort of sit there and think, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a horror.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like when I was looking at Lawrence's hands
Speaker 2: and I was like, these are the hands. I was like,
Speaker 2: this is the spot. Ye you know, But for me,
Speaker 2: where it kind of crosses over or where there is
Speaker 2: a line and I cannot seem to find that line
Speaker 2: is where does it become exploitative or voyeuristic? You know,
Speaker 2: this interest that we have because people are desperately interested
Speaker 2: in these true crimes. We cannot deny that the mushroom saga, Yeah,
Speaker 2: lit up the entire nation. It was all anyone could
Speaker 2: talk about. Yeah. But then you go that ex step
Speaker 2: and you're, you know, doing the Wikipedia dive and you're
Speaker 2: going down and you start to get this creepy feeling like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's sick. What what I'm you know? And
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes people misinterpret that about me because
Speaker 2: I have this bright, bubbly nature that I'm fascinated in
Speaker 2: these crimes in an entertaining way. But what I am
Speaker 2: is disturbed by them so badly that I want to
Speaker 2: go deep down in there and try to get in
Speaker 2: the mindset to understand why why did you do this?
Speaker 2: And for two years I was hammering I was hammering
Speaker 2: Lawrence and saying why, why, what led you to it?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 2: And I didn't come out with any further understanding of
Speaker 2: what drove him to that because he was just like
Speaker 2: you say, depthless, there's nothing in their blank. So I
Speaker 2: was I was entering new moral gray areas.
Speaker 1: I can see how you get morally conflicted by it.
Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of progress in catchingerial killers,
Speaker 1: like from the mind Hunter days with John Douglas and
Speaker 1: Burgess profiling the serial killers and understanding where they're coming.
Speaker 2: From, and that's from talking to them, from actually talking
Speaker 2: to them, you know. And school shooters I think as well,
Speaker 2: what ends up happening is that they die in the
Speaker 2: firefight and you don't get to have them sit down
Speaker 2: and say this was the progression, this is the point
Speaker 2: at which I reached no return And there should be
Speaker 2: more interviewing. I feel, you know, there should be more
Speaker 2: interviewing of that and understanding pedophiles as well, and saying
Speaker 2: what was the point at which you crossed over? And
Speaker 2: they have done a lot of work with pedophiles to
Speaker 2: say what kind of victim were you looking for? And
Speaker 2: then translate out, you know, to parents to say, to
Speaker 2: teach your child, this is the kind of things that
Speaker 2: you might be asked to do or say, or this
Speaker 2: is the kind of victim they're looking for. They're looking
Speaker 2: for a victim where the parents aren't invested the vulnerable
Speaker 2: and so hanging over the top of our kid all
Speaker 2: the time, the teacher can see in that kind.
Speaker 1: Of well, I think they shy away from it. They
Speaker 1: look for the easy mark and invariably it's kids that
Speaker 1: come from a troubled background are the easiest targets for pedophiles.
Speaker 1: On the loan shooters and the school shootings and all that,
Speaker 1: we had am Bergers on the podcast, so I was
Speaker 1: wrapped to have her on, Like I used to follow
Speaker 1: what they were doing very early in my homicide career.
Speaker 1: But she was saying I think I'm correct here and
Speaker 1: saying that her daughter's doing work now and part of
Speaker 1: the work that they're looking like they've done a lot
Speaker 1: of studies on serial kills, but now they're looking at
Speaker 1: those loan actors and try the mass shooters and trying
Speaker 1: to understand that because that seems to be where crime's
Speaker 1: going or the horror of crime serial killing has I
Speaker 1: think might be naive but being reduced in part because
Speaker 1: of the police technology DNA and all that, it's easier
Speaker 1: to link crimes. Only in the past week there was
Speaker 1: we're after on the investigation I worked on years ago.
Speaker 1: It was a Central Coast rapist, a Cereal rapist, and
Speaker 1: he was locked up from some DNA and that was
Speaker 1: at least over twenty years ago. We're looking for that
Speaker 1: person he raped sexually assaulted five people around the Central Coast,
Speaker 1: and they were linked for various reasons. But I heard note,
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a few people that were involved in it.
Speaker 1: He's seventy three year old man's been locked up and
Speaker 1: that's great. Yeah, yeah, but he could get away with
Speaker 1: it for so long and they were violent, violent crimes,
Speaker 1: and now he's been being charged with the offenses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's so great to get him right at
Speaker 2: the end. That's the dream I think. You know, you
Speaker 2: see the Golden State Killer where they came to his
Speaker 2: door and he's a grandfather and he was a cop
Speaker 2: at the time, and it's like knock knock.
Speaker 1: Ye.
Speaker 2: You know, you weren't expecting these, were you.
Speaker 1: I love the fact that when they get to the
Speaker 1: cold case, unsold thomicide or whatever locked people up years
Speaker 1: down the track because they thought they've got a way
Speaker 1: of it. And yeah, it's horrible, they've got a wave
Speaker 1: of it for so long. But I'd like to think
Speaker 1: anyone that's committed those type of crimes as Sitney there
Speaker 1: in fear waiting for a knock on the door. That
Speaker 1: was in your author's note at the back of the book.
Speaker 1: With the book it's interesting, and I really when I
Speaker 1: started looking at it, I was very curious, how are
Speaker 1: you going to word this? In the introduction to the book,
Speaker 1: I just read something about so we're talking about red
Speaker 1: belly crossing here, and some of the characters and events
Speaker 1: you'll read about in the following pages are born out
Speaker 1: of the personal connection I've had to a pair of
Speaker 1: murders that happened in Sydney's Eastern Beaches in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: three and nineteen seventy four. The victims, Lynette White and
Speaker 1: Maria Smith, who were brutally killed in their homes by
Speaker 1: persons unknown. Lynette was a new mother, Maria was a
Speaker 1: new wife, and they had their whole lives ahead of them.
Speaker 1: I wrote this novel which reimagined that some of the
Speaker 1: aspects of those real crimes is a response to the
Speaker 1: horror and heartache I discovered whilst researching those killings and
Speaker 1: meeting the families of the murdered women. So that tells
Speaker 1: me that with all the fictional crime writing, you do
Speaker 1: understand the pain of murder a homicide, when someone's life
Speaker 1: is taken expand on. That's how have you weave that
Speaker 1: into the book?
Speaker 2: So this happened, this whole book and this whole experience
Speaker 2: meeting Lynette and Maria's husbands. It came out at this
Speaker 2: moment where I was sitting at home. My husband's on
Speaker 2: the couch, I'm in the armchair, and my daughter, Violet
Speaker 2: was one and a half at the time, and she's
Speaker 2: running around the house and she's just wearing a nappy
Speaker 2: and a top hat and carrying a toy briefcase. And
Speaker 2: I said to Tim, she looks like a little daughter
Speaker 2: door salesman. And as I said it, like a it
Speaker 2: felt like a drawer popped open in my brain and
Speaker 2: a memory was there waiting, And it's like if you
Speaker 2: hear the jingle to a kid's show. You haven't heard
Speaker 2: that seeing that kid's show since you were three. You go, oh,
Speaker 2: I remember, you have all the words. Yeah. The memory
Speaker 2: was of my mother saying to me, she's leaving me
Speaker 2: at home for the first time alone, which is quite
Speaker 2: an event seeing as there were so many kids, you know,
Speaker 2: in the house. She was saying to me, don't open
Speaker 2: the door to strangers, you know, if anyone knocks, just hide,
Speaker 2: Because I opened the door once on someone when I
Speaker 2: was a teenager and he ended up being a killer,
Speaker 2: and that was a story she would tell every now
Speaker 2: and then I knocked on the door. The guy was
Speaker 2: a killer. I didn't let him in, and I thought,
Speaker 2: as I've had sitting here having this memory, I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: that's like a cautionary tale. And my mother's told me
Speaker 2: don't open the door, because once I did it, it
Speaker 2: was a murderer. So but I told Tim, and Tim
Speaker 2: was like your mother a you know, and he just
Speaker 2: went back to his crossroad. And I thought, no, there's
Speaker 2: something in this I want to know, because I remembered
Speaker 2: funny little details like she said that the guy said
Speaker 2: that he was an encyclopedia salesman, and that sounded too
Speaker 2: specific for a cautionary tale. So I texted her and
Speaker 2: I said, having this memory, was that real?
Speaker 3: Was that just bullshit? You want to tell me you
Speaker 3: know when I was a kid. And she said, no,
Speaker 3: it's real. It's a real case. Two women were murdered
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. And I don't think they ever caught
Speaker 3: the guy.
Speaker 2: And I went what And I called her. I said,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? She said, oh, yeah, the
Speaker 2: guy came to the door. I was home alone. I
Speaker 2: was seventeen. Her father had just died, so that puts
Speaker 2: a timeline on it, like a couple of weeks before
Speaker 2: her father. So this is April nineteen seventy four, and
Speaker 2: everyone was up at the funeral home. I was home alone.
Speaker 2: He knocks. She opens the big wooden door, but not
Speaker 2: the screen door. He's standing there and he says, oh, hi,
Speaker 2: I must an encyclopedia. Say when I'm going door to door,
Speaker 2: I was wondering if I could talk to you about encyclopedias.
Speaker 2: And they're having a nice little chit chat through the screen,
Speaker 2: and as they are, she said she just got this
Speaker 2: full body rush of all the hairs on her arms
Speaker 2: stood on end, and she's thinking, why isn't he carrying anything.
Speaker 2: He's got no briefcase, no top hat, no pamphlets, no nothing.
Speaker 2: He's just a dude standing there. And she said he
Speaker 2: also looked very casually dressed for a daughter store salesman
Speaker 2: who's wearing a zip up jacket and tan pants, and
Speaker 2: he had sort of like longish hair. Anyway, she made
Speaker 2: an excuse because she was having this feeling and said, oh,
Speaker 2: I've got to ask my dad. And it's really supposed
Speaker 2: to open the door to people, Hey dad, And as
Speaker 2: she's called out, hey dad, he just too quickly and
Speaker 2: walked and I said, well, what are these unsold cases
Speaker 2: you're talking about? And she said, oh, oh, well one
Speaker 2: of them. The girl went to my school, actually, Maria McGuinn,
Speaker 2: and I'm googling it and I've go on, oh my god, mom,
Speaker 2: this is These are two unsolved homicides. There's a million
Speaker 2: dollar reward on both of them. They're you know, I said,
Speaker 2: you could be the missing piece of the puzzle. You've
Speaker 2: seen the guy. Nobody else has seen the guy, you know.
Speaker 2: And she's like, oh, you're making a big deal. And
Speaker 2: I said, well it is number one. There's this you
Speaker 2: might be the key to a fifty year old serial
Speaker 2: killing and number two. For the last eight years or something,
Speaker 2: I've been trying to be the foremost crime writer in
Speaker 2: the country. Do you think you could have mentioned it
Speaker 2: at any point that.
Speaker 1: You've had this new two valid points?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know, I said, did you ever
Speaker 2: talk to the police and said no.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to come over here tomorrow. Whatever
Speaker 2: you do in the interim, do not google it. You might,
Speaker 2: but I'm not a police interviewer. So I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 2: even by bringing it up and discussing it with her,
Speaker 2: maybe I'm corrupting her memory. So she came over and
Speaker 2: I said, tell me the story, give me the description,
Speaker 2: and asked some basic questions that I thought I should ask.
Speaker 2: I said, did you notice an accent? No, what age
Speaker 2: was he? What did his hair look like that? What?
Speaker 2: What did he say exactly? And I wrote it all
Speaker 2: up and I sent it to the police and they
Speaker 2: A detective came back and he said, you know, tell
Speaker 2: me more. So I told him a bit more and
Speaker 2: he said, yeah, that sounds like him. But you know,
Speaker 2: without like a name or a number plate, there's not
Speaker 2: much I can really do with it. So I'm going,
Speaker 2: what what do you mean There's nothing could do it like.
Speaker 2: It wasn't enough for me. I'm that person who's always like, well,
Speaker 2: but but you know, and the arrogance and naivety what
Speaker 2: was talking about earlier. I was thinking, I have been
Speaker 2: called upon to do something about this, and this is
Speaker 2: not enough, you know what you're saying here and then,
Speaker 2: and so I thought, okay, that's it. Step aside, everyone,
Speaker 2: I'm going to solve this myself. I'm going to get
Speaker 2: a podcast. I'm going to investigate it. I'm going to
Speaker 2: be the new Headley Thomas watch this, you know. So
Speaker 2: I wrangled some friends together. I'm like, let's make a podcast.
Speaker 2: Let's make a podcast. And in the meantime, I'm at
Speaker 2: Google how to solve a homicide? You know, and I
Speaker 2: realized very quickly that that is not as easy as
Speaker 2: it is to be. It's like a whole profession.
Speaker 1: They've just shocked a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Like, but this is how it would go in fiction,
Speaker 2: is the protagonist would be called upon by some strange
Speaker 2: things that comes up, and they would get involved, and
Speaker 2: you know, three days later, bingo bango, it's all solved. No,
Speaker 2: that is not what happens. So I did some fiddling around.
Speaker 2: You know. For example, one of the things that has
Speaker 2: come out in the more recent investigations of Maria's murder
Speaker 2: is they're looking for this mustard colored Forward Capri with
Speaker 2: a black racing stripe. So I've got some contacts together,
Speaker 2: and I got some at Ford and I was saying,
Speaker 2: I'm investigating a homicide. Can you tell me how many
Speaker 2: must colored Ford Capris there were in Australia between you know,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, I can help
Speaker 2: you with that.
Speaker 1: No worries yet.
Speaker 2: We'll get I'll get back to you very very soon.
Speaker 2: Never heard from them again. And what authority do I
Speaker 2: have to say? I'm a crime fiction writer.
Speaker 1: Do you know who I am? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Do you know who I am? Please answer these questions.
Speaker 2: So now I'm in this space where the podcast situation
Speaker 2: hasn't worked. I'm no good at being a homicide detective
Speaker 2: in real life. I can only do it in fiction.
Speaker 2: And I'm just sitting around and talking to everyone who'll listen.
Speaker 2: And I said to my agent, you know, a couple
Speaker 2: of years had passed at this point. We're trying. We're
Speaker 2: trying or trying. I said to my agent, I feel
Speaker 2: like my talent lies in writing crime fiction. Maybe I
Speaker 2: could write a fictional novel, you know that kind of
Speaker 2: reimagines aspects of the case. And she's saying, that is
Speaker 2: a terrible idea, because you're going to upset you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I mean this has really happened. Stephen King wrote
Speaker 2: a short story inspired by Dennis Raider BTK. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: he was imagining it from the perspective of the wife
Speaker 2: and the family and all this you find out, hey,
Speaker 2: dad's a serial killer, and that really had a terrible
Speaker 2: effect on Dennis Raider's daughter, As she said, I felt,
Speaker 2: I felt exploited. I said, they want my agent, Well
Speaker 2: what if?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: I met the families of Lynette and Maria, and I said,
Speaker 2: is this okay? You know, and I'm having further ideas.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, you know, I've got whenever I bring a
Speaker 2: book out, I'm talking to thousands of people. I'm in
Speaker 2: libraries and I'm on the radio, and maybe I can
Speaker 2: spread the word because there are very practical questions that
Speaker 2: the police want to know. They want to know who
Speaker 2: lived in those apartment buildings at that time, you know,
Speaker 2: they want to know who owned a Ford. You know,
Speaker 2: I can ask practical questions of my audience. So why
Speaker 2: don't I go and meet Lynette and Maria's families and
Speaker 2: ask permission? And my agent was like, you have had
Speaker 2: some bad ideas in your time. This really takes the cake.
Speaker 2: Number One, They're going to stand over you while you
Speaker 2: write this novel, and if they don't like what you've written,
Speaker 2: you know, too bad for you. And then if you
Speaker 2: go out promoting it and put a foot wrong. They're
Speaker 2: going to sue you. And then also, you're going to
Speaker 2: look like this, this person who has exploited these family
Speaker 2: members to make a book that you're going to bank
Speaker 2: buck off, Like how are you going to get around that?
Speaker 2: And so I went, Okay, it's a terrible idea. So
Speaker 2: I sat around for you know, another year and a
Speaker 2: half not doing anything about it, and then I just went, oh,
Speaker 2: fuck it. So I just wrote I had been staring
Speaker 2: at Paul and Steven online, looking at their Facebook pro files,
Speaker 2: trying to find their kids. Yeah, and Maria's brother Peter.
Speaker 2: I would go to his website and I would just
Speaker 2: stare at it and I wouldn't cross the border. Then
Speaker 2: I just crossed it and I made contact through a
Speaker 2: journalist with Paul. I just sent the message saying I
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about your wife's murder. And
Speaker 2: I just said that. So on a rand, I'm at
Speaker 2: the in laws. It's Sunday lunch. I get this phone
Speaker 2: call and he says it's Paul White. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I had not prepared for it, and so I said
Speaker 2: I need to take this phone call. I went anyway
Speaker 2: into a quiet room and he said, you wanted you
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me about what my wife's murder.
Speaker 2: And I just went blur and I just said, Mom
Speaker 2: just revealed to me that she had this encounter and
Speaker 2: it might you know, I might be the guy.
Speaker 1: I might not.
Speaker 2: I don't know. What's you And I tried to get
Speaker 2: a podcast up, you know, And I'm saying to him,
Speaker 2: I really wanted to write a novel about it. But
Speaker 2: it's not going to be like Dexter, you know, or
Speaker 2: like I'm the serial killer. I'm enjoying it all that.
Speaker 2: But I have this idea, you know, and I want
Speaker 2: to put an afterward in the back of the novel,
Speaker 2: which is a call to the reader to say, maybe
Speaker 2: you can help, because there's things that we, you know,
Speaker 2: we could do as a society. I want to bring
Speaker 2: public knowledge to this case. I know it's been done
Speaker 2: a lot already, but maybe I could get that one
Speaker 2: person who says, oh, actually, you know, look my mom
Speaker 2: has My mom said she never told anyone. She said,
Speaker 2: I told you kids, and I told you Dad, but
Speaker 2: otherwise I had not told anyone.
Speaker 1: Well, solving these unsolved crimes, quite often is that one
Speaker 1: piece of information that that breakthrough coupled with what we've
Speaker 1: got in forensic technology. Yeah, so Paul, I know Paul.
Speaker 1: I met Paul. He reached out to me after I
Speaker 1: left the cops and talking about his concerns the way
Speaker 1: the investigation was being approached, and to me, I always
Speaker 1: choose or tread careful when you're dealing with people who
Speaker 1: have been traumatized for horrendous situations. But he seemed like
Speaker 1: a very balanced person. He wasn't expecting expecting miracles, but
Speaker 1: he just wanted to make sure everything that could be
Speaker 1: done was done, and that was his concern when I
Speaker 1: met with him, that things were not heading in the
Speaker 1: right direction. I gave him some advice. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it helped or not, but I can imagine the
Speaker 1: reception you got from him. It was probably the best
Speaker 1: person you could speak to because he is such a
Speaker 1: nice human being and he still desperately wants to find
Speaker 1: out what's happened, what happened to his wife.
Speaker 2: He said, I'll never give up. Yeah, until the day
Speaker 2: I don't. I'll never give up. And so it was
Speaker 2: incredibly nerve wracking meeting him for the first time, because he's,
Speaker 2: like you say, he's a gentle and balanced person, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't give a lot away in the beginning. And
Speaker 2: he said, why don't we meet After I'd done him
Speaker 2: what's fluttering? He said, why don't we meet for coffee?
Speaker 2: And so I met him for coffee and he heard
Speaker 2: my account, and I said, I understand all of the
Speaker 2: feelings that you might have towards someone like me who
Speaker 2: writes crime fiction, who basically turns what has happened to
Speaker 2: you the worst thing that's ever happened to you in
Speaker 2: your life. I assume I turned it into entertainment for everyone.
Speaker 2: And you know, there was someone who did something with
Speaker 2: Lawrence and Roy and the documentary surrounding their murders. And
Speaker 2: I know that at the cocktail party that was celebrating
Speaker 2: that documentary, they had cocktails that were all named after
Speaker 2: different tools that they used, So they had like screwdriver
Speaker 2: and flyers and all that for those cocktails. I'm saying
Speaker 2: to Paul, I know the terrible, gimmicky things that can
Speaker 2: come out of crime fiction, but that is not where
Speaker 2: I'm coming at. You know, if this, if my mother
Speaker 2: had let this guy in, I would not be here
Speaker 2: and she would not be here. And also my feeling,
Speaker 2: particularly with Lynette. And maybe that's why I approached Paul first,
Speaker 2: is that I was after a year and a half
Speaker 2: of having Violet, I was really enjoying being a mother.
Speaker 2: I was out of the trenches and I had this
Speaker 2: beautiful child. And Lynette never got to that stage. She
Speaker 2: was murdered in her apartment. Paul was off to work
Speaker 2: and she was there with an eleven week old baby
Speaker 2: and this guy has come in and murdered her, you know,
Speaker 2: at something like ten o'clock in the morning on an
Speaker 2: everyday morning, and that journey was ended for her. And
Speaker 2: the unfairness of it of saying, I'm going to put
Speaker 2: this experience that I want to have with you over
Speaker 2: your motherhood of that child. In the same room, I
Speaker 2: was pauled, and I was crying at the at the
Speaker 2: table with Paul and thinking, at what right do I
Speaker 2: have to cry over the loss of your wife? But
Speaker 2: it just started happening and he said, I feel like
Speaker 2: you have good intentions, and I thought, oh, good, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do something and I don't know what
Speaker 2: I can do, and this is the only thing that
Speaker 2: I could do. And he said, no, I think it's
Speaker 2: a good idea. You know. So then through Paul I
Speaker 2: met Stephen, so Steven's wife Maria. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2: Ordinary morning, you know, Stephen goes off to work at
Speaker 2: seven point thirty. She's supposed to arrive where she was
Speaker 2: being a student teacher at my mother's school at eight thirty.
Speaker 2: She never makes it there. He comes home that night
Speaker 2: to find she's been raped and strangled with pannyhoes, Yeah,
Speaker 2: in their apartment. Then we get into the journey of
Speaker 2: how do I write this book? And you know, I
Speaker 2: met the two guys, I met the wives, and I'm
Speaker 2: saying to them, I cannot write this book how it
Speaker 2: happened for you. I can't even set it in the
Speaker 2: Eastern Beaches because I might be implicating people, even unintentionally,
Speaker 2: with these characters with red herrings and things that affects
Speaker 2: real world people who might have been looked at for
Speaker 2: the case, or the cops as well. I don't want
Speaker 2: to have a cop character and say, well, this was
Speaker 2: clearly that guy who worked at the Kuji Police at
Speaker 2: that time. And I was writing the novel and I
Speaker 2: was saying to them, I can only have one husband
Speaker 2: in the book because I can't have these two separate scenes,
Speaker 2: you know, where they go and meet two separate husbands
Speaker 2: and hear the same thing. I've got to roll them
Speaker 2: both into one. So I'm sorry. I've essentially deleted one
Speaker 2: of you. And in the novel, I didn't want the
Speaker 2: reader to place so much suspicion on the husband. I
Speaker 2: wanted you to just come into the scene, empathize with
Speaker 2: the husband, and then get out again and keep looking
Speaker 2: around the book for the killer. So I've had it
Speaker 2: so that the husband doesn't find the bodies. So that
Speaker 2: experience that you had coming home to a darkened apartment,
Speaker 2: flicking the lights on finding your wife murdered in this
Speaker 2: horrific way, I've had to delete it. And what a
Speaker 2: thing to have to say to someone, because I'm trying
Speaker 2: to say, I'm not discounting what happened to you, but
Speaker 2: plot wise and crime fiction wise, I can't do it
Speaker 2: that way. And it was so hard, and these guys
Speaker 2: were so understanding.
Speaker 1: I haven't met Steve, but Paul, I can imagine, and
Speaker 1: I think, and this is a testing my memory. Paul
Speaker 1: was also trying to push for cards in prison where
Speaker 1: unsolved murders the prisoners sit there playing cards and they
Speaker 1: have rewards. It's a trigger, and I think it's been tried.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's a different state or tried overseas,
Speaker 1: and there's been some success from it.
Speaker 2: He said, I'll try anything, but.
Speaker 1: What you've discovered, Yeah, you might write fictional crime, but
Speaker 1: what you've discovered is the pain of homicide. This is
Speaker 1: what fifty years ago, these crimes, and it's still impacting
Speaker 1: on people to.
Speaker 2: This day every day. And he was getting tiery. And
Speaker 2: I've seen Steve get tiery, and it seems to me
Speaker 2: that the emotion is right there all the time with
Speaker 2: these guys, and it never goes away. It just sits there,
Speaker 2: and as soon as you start talking about it, it's
Speaker 2: right out. And that's half a century later, and it's
Speaker 2: exactly what I was trying to say to Lawrence. I
Speaker 2: was sitting there with the serial killer, saying, this person
Speaker 2: is not a hand flick and then get over it.
Speaker 2: But he couldn't understand. And so, yeah, listening to Paul
Speaker 2: and Stephen, I was wandering around this territory of trying
Speaker 2: not to retraumatize them and saying, oh, so what was
Speaker 2: they like, you know, or saying, you know, how did
Speaker 2: you guys meet and that kind of thing, and their
Speaker 2: wives are there as well, so it's like, how do
Speaker 2: I do this? And then, you know, I wrote the novel.
Speaker 2: They didn't see it at all until it was completed,
Speaker 2: and then I sent it off to them. I emailed
Speaker 2: it off and then I just sat there just buzzing
Speaker 2: with terror. I think it was three days or something
Speaker 2: before Paul got back, because I've tried to encompass emotionally
Speaker 2: in the novel what these guys experienced, having not experienced
Speaker 2: it at all myself, you know, and they've trust they've
Speaker 2: really trusted me to do it and to go out
Speaker 2: and to talk. And I said to them, the day
Speaker 2: of printing is going to be December nineteen, so all
Speaker 2: the way up until midnight December nineteen. Yeah, I said,
Speaker 2: you let me know. If there's something I say, or
Speaker 2: something you read, or you just get a feeling and
Speaker 2: you want to say, I'm out, then you'll be out.
Speaker 2: I'll take them right out. I'll change the novel so
Speaker 2: it's unrecognizable. I'll take the afterward out, and I won't
Speaker 2: talk in interviews at all. I'll never speak your wife's name.
Speaker 1: Look, I think one thought a couple of things I
Speaker 1: want to pick up on. You mentioned Headley Thomas the
Speaker 1: podcast will that helped solve a murder, and that was
Speaker 1: initially I know, police was skeptical about it. Police are going, no,
Speaker 1: this is not going to happen. The family law court Bomber.
Speaker 1: I think there was an episode that what was the
Speaker 1: Channel seven equivalent of sixty minutes at the time, back
Speaker 1: in the day that came out and on the back
Speaker 1: of that that case was solved. Now the police are
Speaker 1: going to deny saying that I was working in unsolved homicide.
Speaker 1: What goes on and that pressure, that focus puts the
Speaker 1: police putting resources into it, getting the breakthrough. The reason
Speaker 1: I raise that you're doing. Some people might call hair
Speaker 1: brain schein. How's that going to help? Who knows? Who knows?
Speaker 1: But I think from a victim's point of view, the
Speaker 1: family of victims, they just want to make sure everything's
Speaker 1: being done that can be done, and so is there
Speaker 1: any any harm in trying that? And I think policing
Speaker 1: has got to understand that when you're dealing with traumatize
Speaker 1: people following murders, unsolved murders, or disappearances, that it doesn't
Speaker 1: go away. You have experience that now in real life
Speaker 1: fifty years down the track, and you see the pain
Speaker 1: that's so raw. So they've got to make sure they
Speaker 1: do everything possible. Keep the families informed, keep them informed,
Speaker 1: because that was a lot of the anks with unsolved
Speaker 1: homicide is that the family members that are not being
Speaker 1: informed by the police what's happening, and they sit there
Speaker 1: and quite often the family are too polite to phone
Speaker 1: the police up and go, hey, what's happening. You said
Speaker 1: you'd keep me informed. It's been two or three years
Speaker 1: since I've heard from you, that person no longer works
Speaker 1: here or whatever. There's I think a lot of the
Speaker 1: pain can be reduced by keeping keeping the families informed.
Speaker 1: Having said that, like unsolved homicide, I love it, and
Speaker 1: we talked about in part one where you see old
Speaker 1: cases that have been solved, whether it's from someone coming
Speaker 1: forward or improvements in technology forensic technology. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: worth worth giving giving a try to what you've done.
Speaker 2: My last thing that I want to do, ever, is
Speaker 2: piss off the police and also suggest that they've done.
Speaker 1: All right, don't worry about that.
Speaker 2: No implications to that's possible.
Speaker 1: We happened to.
Speaker 2: Look, you know, because it's been fifty one years. This
Speaker 2: case has got a lot of work on it, it's
Speaker 2: reviewed a lot. Yes, there were mistakes in the beginning,
Speaker 2: like there is no physical evidence whatsoever, you know, remaining
Speaker 2: of these cases. And Paul and Stephen have been driving,
Speaker 2: driving driving the police to say, I've just seen this
Speaker 2: case where where somebody's box of evidence turned up in
Speaker 2: an attic, And I've just seen this case where, you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm hearing rumors about these about homicide, drawing all
Speaker 2: these evidence boxes in and then them sitting there and
Speaker 2: they're not categorizing them. And Paul and Steven are saying
Speaker 2: to the police, is the is the evidence really missing?
Speaker 2: Is it really missing? But there have also been wonderful
Speaker 2: things done on this case where after forty seven years
Speaker 2: they went back to Paul and yeah, yeah, I used
Speaker 2: it in the book as floorboards, but it was carpet.
Speaker 2: Our detective pulled up the carpet and took a DNA
Speaker 2: swab from a bloodstain that you found it, so that
Speaker 2: they have some DNA of the killer. So and I
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm sitting there going how many forward capris
Speaker 2: were there in you know, it's possible that police have
Speaker 2: already done that. They're not going to tell me everything
Speaker 2: that they've done. I'm sure they've been hammering this case
Speaker 2: a lot. But what I'm trying to do is something different.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to reach a reader, maybe like my mum,
Speaker 2: who thought it's not important and I wasn't sure and
Speaker 2: I never told anyone. Maybe I'll get that one person
Speaker 2: by doing this. And I hope that I wrote a
Speaker 2: story where I kind of paid tribute to the pain
Speaker 2: and complexity of being involved in murder. Like I'm taking
Speaker 2: it from two perspectives. In this book. I'm looking at
Speaker 2: victims of murder. I'm also looking at family members of
Speaker 2: a murderer and what it's like to be around a
Speaker 2: murderer and to not know. And so I said it
Speaker 2: somewhere rural. It is based on a real town, So
Speaker 2: I hope I don't annoy anyone from that town. I
Speaker 2: haven't said which town. I hope I don't annoy anyone
Speaker 2: from there. But you know, the book is going out there,
Speaker 2: and I am trying to do everything I can to
Speaker 2: because you know, like I said, I was handed this
Speaker 2: hot potato and I'm just now feeling like I'm passing
Speaker 2: it on maybe.
Speaker 1: Well, the fact, I think in any eventure you go
Speaker 1: down when you're dealing with a true crime event that's
Speaker 1: actually happened. The fact that you've reached out to the
Speaker 1: family so that they've had some input and all that.
Speaker 1: I can imagine how they feel exploited if no one
Speaker 1: reaches reaches out to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think it's ever been done. I
Speaker 2: think crime writers, you know, not ever ever, I'm sure
Speaker 2: it's been done, but I think that that crime writers
Speaker 2: will write about a crime and they'll put it in
Speaker 2: there and they'll disguise it. And I certainly have done this.
Speaker 2: Hope that you disguise it well enough so that you
Speaker 2: know that murderer's brother or that victim's father doesn't read
Speaker 2: it and go, oh, clearly this is inspired by what
Speaker 2: happened to me. I've just come out, and this time
Speaker 2: I've come out, and because obviously I wrote about Lawrence
Speaker 2: in those books and what he did, and I was
Speaker 2: tapping into the mind of a murderer. But I didn't
Speaker 2: want to tiptoe through that gray area anymore. I wanted
Speaker 2: to stomp through it and find my way through this.
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, surely there's a way to do this
Speaker 2: where I don't hurt anyone, because I said to the
Speaker 2: guys hurting you or your kids or you know, Maria's brother,
Speaker 2: if there's any threat of that at all, I'm out.
Speaker 1: Well was it years ago? Got it in the notes
Speaker 1: here where the police were making public appeals for information,
Speaker 1: so they must think there's looking for that missing missing piece.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in Paul and Paul and Lynnette's apartment block,
Speaker 2: they still don't know everyone who lived in that apartment block.
Speaker 2: If you can find someone who just lived there. There
Speaker 2: was a group of UK backpackers from the UK that
Speaker 2: lived there, very interested in them, and they can't find
Speaker 2: who they were, you know, because it was backpackers moving
Speaker 2: in and out and paying cash and yeah, all this
Speaker 2: kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Well, it's worth worthwhile. But I understand you reluctance or
Speaker 1: concerns about doing something where you're delving from fiction into real.
Speaker 1: That's why when I looked at the cover and thought,
Speaker 1: oh this is brave. Where are we going here? I
Speaker 1: enjoyed enjoyed the route. It's yeah, and I know the
Speaker 1: area that you're talking about because I did a lot
Speaker 1: of I did a lot of policing out there.
Speaker 2: I won't because I go there and I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had some interesting experiences out in those parts.
Speaker 2: I knew it was I knew there was a history there.
Speaker 2: I could feel it. I thought, this is where the
Speaker 2: weirdos are, you know, not all of them, but they're
Speaker 2: hidden in these hills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's some interesting things. Hey guys, it's Gary
Speaker 1: jubilin here. I want to get more out of I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. Then you should head over to our new
Speaker 1: video feed on Spotify, where you can watch every episode
Speaker 1: of I Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch Killers
Speaker 1: video in your Spotify app and start watching today. Just
Speaker 1: before we've finished talking about those particular cases in your book,
Speaker 1: this is in the author's note, and I think I
Speaker 1: just want to read that out. And so this is
Speaker 1: at the end of the book. In the end true
Speaker 1: crime fictions, conventions and expectations, we meet the killer. He
Speaker 1: gets what he deserves, the answers and closure. At the
Speaker 1: time of writing this afterward, none of these things have
Speaker 1: been available to Paul and Stephen and everyone who lost
Speaker 1: Lynnette and Maria. I will never be able to write
Speaker 1: a book of fiction that completely encompasses the tragedy of
Speaker 1: experience murdering real life. I don't believe anyone can. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you put that in because that's what the message
Speaker 1: I try to get across, because I'm conflicted too. I'm
Speaker 1: now in a space where I used to work in
Speaker 1: the cops and now I'm working in the media and
Speaker 1: the focus is true crime. But if you can do
Speaker 1: anything doing the podcast that we do, letting people understand
Speaker 1: the pain of what happens when someone's been murdered, because
Speaker 1: unless you've seen that firsthand, I'm telling you you don't
Speaker 1: get it.
Speaker 2: And the thing about crime fiction as a mode is that,
Speaker 2: of course you get closure because that's what the reader
Speaker 2: wants and expects. And so I had to say to
Speaker 2: Paul and Stephen, it's going to be solved. I'm going
Speaker 2: to tell you who the killer is, and they're going
Speaker 2: to get what they deserve. But you don't get that,
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry, and you may never get that. I
Speaker 2: hope that you do, but you may never. And that's
Speaker 2: something that I cannot do in crime fiction is try
Speaker 2: to paint a picture of that forever and forever and
Speaker 2: forever of not knowing. There's so many things that went
Speaker 2: into this book, and because they went in, they illustrate
Speaker 2: for me the unfairness. You know, when you meet the
Speaker 2: husband of the murdered wife, he defiantly says, well, I
Speaker 2: never moved out of this house. I stayed here because
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to take that house from me. Took
Speaker 2: my wife. He's not going to take my house, and
Speaker 2: she was happy here. Well, guess what, both Paul and
Speaker 2: Stephen had to move out of their apartments, and they
Speaker 2: would have walked into those apartments for the first time
Speaker 2: with Lynette and Maria, and they would have been young
Speaker 2: and married, and Paul and Lynett had got a baby,
Speaker 2: and they would have walked in there for the first time, excited,
Speaker 2: this is our new apartment. How wonderful. And at the
Speaker 2: end of that story, it's Stephen and Paul walking out
Speaker 2: alone because that's where their wife died, and that dream
Speaker 2: of that home was destroyed by this personal persons. You know,
Speaker 2: they don't the police don't know whether it's one killer
Speaker 2: or two. You know. I go into great detail in
Speaker 2: the afterward about these cases and what police want to know.
Speaker 2: So I hope people will pick it up and read
Speaker 2: it and think to themselves. But that's it's not possible
Speaker 2: to do it with fiction. And so I guess this
Speaker 2: whole journey has been in about, you know, because like
Speaker 2: I said, I was going to solve it. I was
Speaker 2: going to I was going to be the person who
Speaker 2: knocked on the killer's door and he comes out and
Speaker 2: he's eighty and I'm like, guess what ding dong, motherfucker,
Speaker 2: and I punched him in the face and then the
Speaker 2: cops swirling and they get him. It has been all
Speaker 2: about learning the name of Heley.
Speaker 1: Who's Headley Thomas.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. She was there, she punched him,
Speaker 2: and I'd say to the judge and I'd do it again,
Speaker 2: you know. And it has been learning that. I have
Speaker 2: very big dreams about how you could get rid of
Speaker 2: that pain of homicide, but they're all incredibly fictional, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, the pain of homicide and put this into your
Speaker 1: memory for potential future books. After I left the police,
Speaker 1: I went and visited the mother of Michelle Pogmore. Michelle
Speaker 1: was murdered in Mount Dreuitt a long long time ago,
Speaker 1: I think fifteen years ago or more. A third year
Speaker 1: old girl just found dumped in the park.
Speaker 2: She'd been to a party.
Speaker 1: I remember that she'd been there. It was just horrific,
Speaker 1: and I was the on call, the officer for it,
Speaker 1: went to the crime scene and spoke to Michelle's mum
Speaker 1: and we've stayed in touch over the years. I wasn't
Speaker 1: running the investigation, but from the initial long call I
Speaker 1: made the connection with the mother. After I left the police,
Speaker 1: I thought that I'd go around and see her because
Speaker 1: she contacted me when I was in the police and
Speaker 1: she had a bedroom set up for Michelle exactly the
Speaker 1: way it was when she left, with tweety birds on
Speaker 1: the on the walls and all that. I asked, what's
Speaker 1: that about, and she said, I just can't bring it
Speaker 1: to take it down. Yeah, now that is carrying pain.
Speaker 1: That's unimaginable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's for me. I look into the photos because
Speaker 2: I've seen photos that aren't out there in the press
Speaker 2: of Lynette and Maria, those personal ones. You know that
Speaker 2: that Paul and Steven keep to themselves, and you can see,
Speaker 2: you can see how happy these women were. And I
Speaker 2: feel a particular affinity for Lynnette, who.
Speaker 1: Was like me.
Speaker 2: She's got her hands in everything. You know, she's a
Speaker 2: dancer and she's got a salon and she's you know,
Speaker 2: she's selling products, and she's got a kid, and she's
Speaker 2: juggling all this kind of stuff, embracing life, yeah, really
Speaker 2: living and never stopping. And that was part of the
Speaker 2: you know, the suspect pool is enormous because they know
Speaker 2: so many people, and I felt like, you know, I
Speaker 2: felt something for her, and then meeting Steven and learning
Speaker 2: about Maria, I just I stepped deep into it. So
Speaker 2: I hope the effect that I've had is good.
Speaker 1: Well, we're talking about that's that's it right now. I
Speaker 1: think the fact that the families and that's frustration that
Speaker 1: their loved one has been forgotten. And so the fact
Speaker 1: that people are talking about I think that pays tribute
Speaker 1: to the victims in a way that their life counted
Speaker 1: and they haven't been forgotten, and it helps, it helps
Speaker 1: her families and place. Quite often they're doing a really
Speaker 1: good job trying and the solver murder, but they're not
Speaker 1: updating the families. And yeah, that's that's concerning. Let's lighten
Speaker 1: it up a little bit. Okay, just a little bit,
Speaker 1: because you probably take us into a dark place anyway.
Speaker 1: You all the same, these crime writers and types, your
Speaker 1: favorite characters. Oh, Goshi a kid? Is it?
Speaker 2: It is? It is? Look Russell and Bridy in this book.
Speaker 2: Ten out of ten would write them again. I love them.
Speaker 2: They're so much fun, and particularly Bridy with the animal rescue.
Speaker 2: She's an animal rescuer.
Speaker 1: What was that based on that?
Speaker 2: That's a little bit just on experiences I have had this.
Speaker 1: You know, sure the listener wouldn't have picked that up,
Speaker 1: picked that up.
Speaker 2: So at the moment, it's probably Russell and Bridy. I've
Speaker 2: written the next book in the row and almost finished
Speaker 2: your first draft, and I feel like after the first draft,
Speaker 2: I've only just starting to get to know those characters.
Speaker 2: So I've sketched it out. The builders that I based
Speaker 2: the their heist crew for that book. It's called Devil's Kitchen,
Speaker 2: and I based it on these real builders who are
Speaker 2: in my backyard. I still see one of those builders
Speaker 2: around and I'm like, ah, there is you know, and.
Speaker 1: So you're they're they're four men building crew, but you
Speaker 1: put them doing.
Speaker 2: Robber yeah, the highest Yeah, they had a vibe they had.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they're not criminals. I'm sure they're not, but
Speaker 2: they had a kind of a gang vibe. And I
Speaker 2: could very easily see them as a.
Speaker 1: High st still trying to solve that robbery fan where
Speaker 1: they turned up as a group of builders.
Speaker 2: Really, I could see it.
Speaker 1: What about in fictional crime stories a dysfunctional detectives? Are
Speaker 1: all detectives dysfunctional in some way?
Speaker 2: See this is when whenever somebody comes up to me
Speaker 2: in a book talk and they say, oh, I'm a
Speaker 2: police officer, I always go, I'm sorry. You know, they're
Speaker 2: so corrupt. In my early books, they were always corrupt
Speaker 2: because you're trying to throw as much bad stuff at
Speaker 2: the protagonists as you can. And if they're working in
Speaker 2: a police station where you know, there's all this underhanded
Speaker 2: ness going on and bullying and sexual harassment and nobody
Speaker 2: knows how to do their job, it's just hard for
Speaker 2: that protagonist to do their job, you know. So I
Speaker 2: always go, oh, my god, you're either about to tell
Speaker 2: me about some factoid that I've gotten wrong. You know,
Speaker 2: there's more than two people on a crime scene canvas,
Speaker 2: there's like thirty people like, hey, yes, but for plus
Speaker 2: reasons this too, you know, you know, or you're about
Speaker 2: to say, could you stop making all the cops so corrupt?
Speaker 2: But yeah, now in this In this novel in Red
Speaker 2: Belly Crossing, Russell's the cop and his mo o is
Speaker 2: just to walk around and just be aggressively awful to
Speaker 2: everyone you know. Have you ever known do? Were you
Speaker 2: reading that and thinking I know a guys.
Speaker 1: Just like that. No, I saw no similarities whatsoever, So
Speaker 1: help me God. No, I understand it in different contexts.
Speaker 1: But I would put on, not put on, but I
Speaker 1: would carry a persona. If I'm in the middle of
Speaker 1: a job, there is absolutely no time for niceties, and
Speaker 1: forget your f and cup of tea like we're having
Speaker 1: a briefing. I don't care if you haven't had your coffee.
Speaker 1: This needs to be done and maybe I could have
Speaker 1: done it, done it differently, but it's not in me
Speaker 1: because I think I think investigations are too important. People
Speaker 1: that get to name me go, hey, you actually smile. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to smile in the middle of a
Speaker 1: homicide investigation when we're all under pressure. Just do your
Speaker 1: work and will smile afterwards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to be more like a Doberman energy
Speaker 2: rather than like golden Retriet.
Speaker 1: And I saw like I'm easy to work with, but
Speaker 1: the persona when things need to be done, and they
Speaker 1: need to be done now, and don't stuff this up.
Speaker 1: I've had investigations where people have made mistakes and literally
Speaker 1: murderers have got away, which we all make mistakes. I've
Speaker 1: made mistakes. We all make mistakes, but they've made mistakes
Speaker 1: out of laziness and that pisses me off. And then
Speaker 1: when you front them on it, they don't even care.
Speaker 1: Like I've had people that I spoke to that have
Speaker 1: made the mistake and I'm thinking, I better keep a watch.
Speaker 1: That might be self harm. You want to you know,
Speaker 1: that's how do they live with that? They walk out
Speaker 1: and then they're laughing with their mates straight away.
Speaker 2: But did you have you enjoyed the ways in which
Speaker 2: you've been represented in fiction? I know you've had the
Speaker 2: crime writing colleagues at mine specifically say you inspired that character.
Speaker 2: Have you enjoyed that or have found it weird?
Speaker 1: Or look, I find it funny? And yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I've gone past because my experience with the Underbelly thing
Speaker 1: where the TV series where they're representing me in my
Speaker 1: personal life and all that, like any sense of privacy
Speaker 1: was gone at that stage. So I know I've had
Speaker 1: a lot of people that have contacted me to get
Speaker 1: the nuances of what life of a detective is. And
Speaker 1: for some reason they think, yeah, a couple of failed marriages,
Speaker 1: a little bit of getting charged, high profile, high profile jobs.
Speaker 2: See that story is very popular in the genre of
Speaker 2: crime fiction going back decades. It's the rogue detective, the
Speaker 2: fouled marriages because he's wedded to the job. You know,
Speaker 2: so now he's single in the novels so that he
Speaker 2: can find a leading lady and all.
Speaker 1: This, and yeah, well, yeah, the period.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is you very cliche, I feel like,
Speaker 2: and when I would come home and sit there in
Speaker 2: my empty apartment because of another failed relationship, eating my.
Speaker 1: Pizza whilst having come from a crime scene, I think,
Speaker 1: what But I know in like, I half joke about this.
Speaker 1: Well I do joke about it. I don't really mean it.
Speaker 1: But I would often say to people, what, once you've
Speaker 1: had your first divorce, then you'll become a real detective.
Speaker 1: And having said that, I fully support the sanct of marriage,
Speaker 1: and yeah, and I promote marriage. And there's some great
Speaker 1: detectives that never have a divorce, but there's lots of separation.
Speaker 1: But I worked on one and I won't mention the name,
Speaker 1: but it was quite quite funny because I've been there
Speaker 1: when I was going through let's say, relationship issues. It
Speaker 1: was harder for the crooks because I had so much
Speaker 1: time on my hand, and it's a weekend, I'm going
Speaker 1: to work, and I would do that just because that
Speaker 1: was easier than dealing with the pain of my own stuff. Ups. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to just throw yourself in the work and you felt
Speaker 1: good about yourself. But I had one young bloke on
Speaker 1: a investigation and he will always seem to be available,
Speaker 1: and like, who can work back? I can, boss, And
Speaker 1: he was from the local area command, hadn't worked homicide before.
Speaker 1: I can, boss, I need someone to do this, I'll
Speaker 1: do that. And that went on for about three months
Speaker 1: and I was impressed, totally committed. And then it got
Speaker 1: to a bit weird, like he could I'd be in
Speaker 1: on the weekends working. He'd be on weekends working, And
Speaker 1: I said, what's going on? He said, ah, bit of
Speaker 1: trouble in for private life is to bury myself in
Speaker 1: the work. So yeah, and he's a great, great detective
Speaker 1: and now he's happily married and he's got a kid.
Speaker 1: But we might we might wrap it up here and
Speaker 1: we'll keep informed if any any breakthrough is on the
Speaker 1: case from the book. But yeah, normally if I thank
Speaker 1: thank guests for coming on, I thank them please for
Speaker 1: their services. I'm going to thank you for the wildlife
Speaker 1: of this country. Oh yeah, the amount of rescues. How
Speaker 1: many you were telling me the other day, how many
Speaker 1: rescues have.
Speaker 2: You done this year? I'm up to seventy two birds
Speaker 2: this year, and they're mostly dumped chickens, ducks, quails, fantail pigeons. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm specializing at the moment on poultry and birds. I'm
Speaker 2: up to seventy two.
Speaker 1: Well, good on you, that is. I'd say it like
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's coming across as a joke, but
Speaker 1: there are people out there like you that are doing
Speaker 1: these things. Also, congratulations on your career from the Setbacks.
Speaker 1: Imagine if you just gave up after the first novel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm not a giver twenty two. By the time
Speaker 1: we speak to you next week, you've probably got twenty
Speaker 1: four books. So yeah, pleasure speaking to you.
Speaker 2: Always have fun, and this has been a real career
Speaker 2: goal Bingo card coming on eye catch killers. I thought
Speaker 2: one you know, when you started the podcast, I was like,
Speaker 2: I said to my publicist, start pitching now, I want
Speaker 2: to be on that show.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you came on the podcast. So it's
Speaker 1: a privilege sitting down having your chat with you and
Speaker 1: a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Oh good, thanks cheers. Nineteen two ninet