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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to part two of an entertaining chat I had

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Speaker 1: with award winning fictional crime author Candice Fox. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk more about her extensive and strange research that

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Speaker 1: she does to write her books, and how she's finding

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Speaker 1: in the ovlap between fiction and true crime, and two

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Speaker 1: unsolved murders that have had a dramatic impact on her canvas. Fox,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me well.

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Speaker 1: I'm having some fun, but I'm going to hit you

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Speaker 1: up with a really hard question. I've been doing this

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Speaker 1: for years now, probably have had hundreds of guests on

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Speaker 1: and I've never asked this question. And yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: ask prabing questions. Sometimes tell me about your honeymoon? What

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Speaker 1: did you get up to?

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Speaker 2: So I got to explain you.

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Speaker 1: Put it in context, otherwise this sounds weird.

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Speaker 2: So I have this super normal husband, Tim, He's a

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Speaker 2: very regular guy. He has beautiful, gentle parents. They have

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Speaker 2: a lovely home, cream carpet, pastel, art on the walls.

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Speaker 2: Him and his brother and his sister, they all had

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Speaker 2: a lovely children, and they get on really well.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: And then he's married me and I have become in

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Speaker 2: that family, just the family freak, the widow. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm leaving and I'm leaving Sunday lunch because I've got

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Speaker 2: to go and rescue a wallaby at fall in someone's pool,

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Speaker 2: or you know, I've got to take a phone call

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Speaker 2: from you know, this person in this true crime and

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Speaker 2: they've just accepted me as the family wido, and he

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Speaker 2: has accepted me as his weido wife. So you know,

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Speaker 2: I say on our honeymoon. We were on a driving

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Speaker 2: tour of the east coast of the US and he said,

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Speaker 2: what do you want to do? You know, this is

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Speaker 2: where we're going. We're going from the Florida Keys up

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Speaker 2: to Maine. What do you want to do? And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: there are so many body dumping sites that I want

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Speaker 2: to visit. All along romantic, I know, and he's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: all right, Well, as long as we can go some

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Speaker 2: dive bars and watch some baseball. And you know, because

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Speaker 2: he's that's the kind of thing easing to. He loves

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Speaker 2: big beautiful industrial areas at sunlight that they're pouring smoke

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Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's New Jersey or whatever. That's

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Speaker 2: what he loves. And he loves a filthy dive bar

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Speaker 2: where you walk in and everyone everyone looks, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's really low lit. And he loves going to

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Speaker 2: the baseball And I love tromping through the bush trying

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Speaker 2: to find a particular log where someone's body was found.

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Speaker 2: And we did that. I said, there was this murder

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Speaker 2: case in Maine and I said, you know it's supposed

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Speaker 2: to where the guy found the body, stumbled across the body.

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Speaker 2: He's here it's supposed to be one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: three feet from the roadside. I want to go there.

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Speaker 2: I want to stand in that spot, and I want

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Speaker 2: to look at the road and say, you know, did

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Speaker 2: he stumble across his body or not? And I want

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Speaker 2: to go, you know, to where the Manson family murders happened.

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Speaker 2: And I want to go and look at that. You know,

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Speaker 2: when we fly in, we'll go and look at that.

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Speaker 2: And there was a serial killer at that time who

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Speaker 2: was running around Long Island and dumped all these bodies,

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Speaker 2: the Gilgo Beach killer. They've caught him, but at that

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Speaker 2: time they hadn't caught him, and he dumped all these bodies.

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Speaker 2: There are seventeen bodies found along this this desolate roadway.

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Speaker 2: And I said, I want to go there. I want

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Speaker 2: to stand there. I want to look.

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Speaker 1: You know, is this okay? Well you've explained what you

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Speaker 1: got up to in your honeymoon. It sounds great, accepting.

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Speaker 1: Is this the type of research you've got to do

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Speaker 1: to be able to write the novels that you do

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Speaker 1: Now you're successful, Aufer, So whatever formula you got is working.

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Speaker 1: Is this the type of meticulous research you do?

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Speaker 2: You don't have to do it, but I think it's good,

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Speaker 2: you know, to have these experiences to get out and

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Speaker 2: that's you know. I was on my honeymoon. I was multitasking,

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Speaker 2: so while we were driving from here to there, I

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Speaker 2: was like, let's stop in, let's look. And I stood there,

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Speaker 2: you know, and my husband's standing nearby, going so, do

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Speaker 2: you want some time alone or what? You know, He's

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Speaker 2: not that into it, but I just wanted to feel it.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to feel the wind going past in this

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Speaker 2: beach and think about this killer dropping this body off

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Speaker 2: and try to get into that mindset. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like why here? Why then? What can you see?

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Speaker 2: What can you smell? What can you feel? You might

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Speaker 2: feel the same thing like I.

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Speaker 1: Do understand what you're saying in that. If I'm investigating

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Speaker 1: a murder, I like to go to the crime soon.

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Speaker 1: I like to be there around the time, if it's

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Speaker 1: at night or whatever, getting a sense of what's gone on.

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Speaker 1: But I was a homicide detect Yeah, yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: understand from a writing point of view, like I'm understanding

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Speaker 1: the writing world a little bit more now. My writing

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Speaker 1: when I was in the place was the facts. These

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Speaker 1: are the facts man, bang bang bang. So I understand

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Speaker 1: creating that, creating that atmosphere. In fact, when I first

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Speaker 1: started writing, I've got advice from a few people, Dan Box,

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Speaker 1: Clear Harvey on it. You've got to create the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: a little bit like my writing was Okay, at such

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Speaker 1: and such a time, we did this, But okay, when

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Speaker 1: you turned up, what was the hot day? A cold day?

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Speaker 1: Was a windblowing? What did house like? What color were

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Speaker 1: the tiles of the house? Yeah, it was at the

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Speaker 1: red brick house. And I understand that that descriptive. So

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Speaker 1: if you want authenticity in your book, I can understand

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Speaker 1: your need to visit these crime scenes and understand. And

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Speaker 1: there is an areous eeriness about them, isn't it. If

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Speaker 1: you've been there, you do sort of sit there and think, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a horror.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like when I was looking at Lawrence's hands

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Speaker 2: and I was like, these are the hands. I was like,

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Speaker 2: this is the spot. Ye you know, But for me,

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Speaker 2: where it kind of crosses over or where there is

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Speaker 2: a line and I cannot seem to find that line

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Speaker 2: is where does it become exploitative or voyeuristic? You know,

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Speaker 2: this interest that we have because people are desperately interested

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Speaker 2: in these true crimes. We cannot deny that the mushroom saga, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: lit up the entire nation. It was all anyone could

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Speaker 2: talk about. Yeah. But then you go that ex step

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Speaker 2: and you're, you know, doing the Wikipedia dive and you're

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Speaker 2: going down and you start to get this creepy feeling like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's sick. What what I'm you know? And

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Speaker 2: I think that sometimes people misinterpret that about me because

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Speaker 2: I have this bright, bubbly nature that I'm fascinated in

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Speaker 2: these crimes in an entertaining way. But what I am

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Speaker 2: is disturbed by them so badly that I want to

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Speaker 2: go deep down in there and try to get in

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Speaker 2: the mindset to understand why why did you do this?

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Speaker 2: And for two years I was hammering I was hammering

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Speaker 2: Lawrence and saying why, why, what led you to it?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 2: And I didn't come out with any further understanding of

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Speaker 2: what drove him to that because he was just like

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Speaker 2: you say, depthless, there's nothing in their blank. So I

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Speaker 2: was I was entering new moral gray areas.

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Speaker 1: I can see how you get morally conflicted by it.

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Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of progress in catchingerial killers,

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Speaker 1: like from the mind Hunter days with John Douglas and

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Speaker 1: Burgess profiling the serial killers and understanding where they're coming.

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Speaker 2: From, and that's from talking to them, from actually talking

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Speaker 2: to them, you know. And school shooters I think as well,

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Speaker 2: what ends up happening is that they die in the

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Speaker 2: firefight and you don't get to have them sit down

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Speaker 2: and say this was the progression, this is the point

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Speaker 2: at which I reached no return And there should be

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Speaker 2: more interviewing. I feel, you know, there should be more

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Speaker 2: interviewing of that and understanding pedophiles as well, and saying

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Speaker 2: what was the point at which you crossed over? And

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Speaker 2: they have done a lot of work with pedophiles to

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Speaker 2: say what kind of victim were you looking for? And

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Speaker 2: then translate out, you know, to parents to say, to

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Speaker 2: teach your child, this is the kind of things that

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Speaker 2: you might be asked to do or say, or this

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Speaker 2: is the kind of victim they're looking for. They're looking

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Speaker 2: for a victim where the parents aren't invested the vulnerable

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Speaker 2: and so hanging over the top of our kid all

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Speaker 2: the time, the teacher can see in that kind.

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Speaker 1: Of well, I think they shy away from it. They

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Speaker 1: look for the easy mark and invariably it's kids that

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Speaker 1: come from a troubled background are the easiest targets for pedophiles.

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Speaker 1: On the loan shooters and the school shootings and all that,

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Speaker 1: we had am Bergers on the podcast, so I was

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Speaker 1: wrapped to have her on, Like I used to follow

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Speaker 1: what they were doing very early in my homicide career.

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Speaker 1: But she was saying I think I'm correct here and

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Speaker 1: saying that her daughter's doing work now and part of

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Speaker 1: the work that they're looking like they've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of studies on serial kills, but now they're looking at

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Speaker 1: those loan actors and try the mass shooters and trying

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Speaker 1: to understand that because that seems to be where crime's

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Speaker 1: going or the horror of crime serial killing has I

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Speaker 1: think might be naive but being reduced in part because

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Speaker 1: of the police technology DNA and all that, it's easier

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Speaker 1: to link crimes. Only in the past week there was

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Speaker 1: we're after on the investigation I worked on years ago.

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Speaker 1: It was a Central Coast rapist, a Cereal rapist, and

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Speaker 1: he was locked up from some DNA and that was

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Speaker 1: at least over twenty years ago. We're looking for that

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Speaker 1: person he raped sexually assaulted five people around the Central Coast,

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Speaker 1: and they were linked for various reasons. But I heard note,

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to a few people that were involved in it.

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Speaker 1: He's seventy three year old man's been locked up and

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Speaker 1: that's great. Yeah, yeah, but he could get away with

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Speaker 1: it for so long and they were violent, violent crimes,

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Speaker 1: and now he's been being charged with the offenses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's so great to get him right at

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Speaker 2: the end. That's the dream I think. You know, you

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Speaker 2: see the Golden State Killer where they came to his

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Speaker 2: door and he's a grandfather and he was a cop

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Speaker 2: at the time, and it's like knock knock.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 2: You know, you weren't expecting these, were you.

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Speaker 1: I love the fact that when they get to the

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Speaker 1: cold case, unsold thomicide or whatever locked people up years

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Speaker 1: down the track because they thought they've got a way

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Speaker 1: of it. And yeah, it's horrible, they've got a wave

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Speaker 1: of it for so long. But I'd like to think

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Speaker 1: anyone that's committed those type of crimes as Sitney there

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Speaker 1: in fear waiting for a knock on the door. That

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Speaker 1: was in your author's note at the back of the book.

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Speaker 1: With the book it's interesting, and I really when I

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Speaker 1: started looking at it, I was very curious, how are

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Speaker 1: you going to word this? In the introduction to the book,

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Speaker 1: I just read something about so we're talking about red

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Speaker 1: belly crossing here, and some of the characters and events

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Speaker 1: you'll read about in the following pages are born out

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Speaker 1: of the personal connection I've had to a pair of

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Speaker 1: murders that happened in Sydney's Eastern Beaches in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: three and nineteen seventy four. The victims, Lynette White and

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Speaker 1: Maria Smith, who were brutally killed in their homes by

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Speaker 1: persons unknown. Lynette was a new mother, Maria was a

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Speaker 1: new wife, and they had their whole lives ahead of them.

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Speaker 1: I wrote this novel which reimagined that some of the

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Speaker 1: aspects of those real crimes is a response to the

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Speaker 1: horror and heartache I discovered whilst researching those killings and

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Speaker 1: meeting the families of the murdered women. So that tells

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Speaker 1: me that with all the fictional crime writing, you do

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Speaker 1: understand the pain of murder a homicide, when someone's life

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Speaker 1: is taken expand on. That's how have you weave that

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Speaker 1: into the book?

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Speaker 2: So this happened, this whole book and this whole experience

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Speaker 2: meeting Lynette and Maria's husbands. It came out at this

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Speaker 2: moment where I was sitting at home. My husband's on

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Speaker 2: the couch, I'm in the armchair, and my daughter, Violet

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Speaker 2: was one and a half at the time, and she's

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Speaker 2: running around the house and she's just wearing a nappy

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Speaker 2: and a top hat and carrying a toy briefcase. And

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Speaker 2: I said to Tim, she looks like a little daughter

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Speaker 2: door salesman. And as I said it, like a it

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Speaker 2: felt like a drawer popped open in my brain and

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Speaker 2: a memory was there waiting, And it's like if you

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Speaker 2: hear the jingle to a kid's show. You haven't heard

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Speaker 2: that seeing that kid's show since you were three. You go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I remember, you have all the words. Yeah. The memory

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Speaker 2: was of my mother saying to me, she's leaving me

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Speaker 2: at home for the first time alone, which is quite

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Speaker 2: an event seeing as there were so many kids, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the house. She was saying to me, don't open

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Speaker 2: the door to strangers, you know, if anyone knocks, just hide,

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Speaker 2: Because I opened the door once on someone when I

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Speaker 2: was a teenager and he ended up being a killer,

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Speaker 2: and that was a story she would tell every now

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Speaker 2: and then I knocked on the door. The guy was

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Speaker 2: a killer. I didn't let him in, and I thought,

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Speaker 2: as I've had sitting here having this memory, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's like a cautionary tale. And my mother's told me

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Speaker 2: don't open the door, because once I did it, it

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Speaker 2: was a murderer. So but I told Tim, and Tim

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Speaker 2: was like your mother a you know, and he just

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Speaker 2: went back to his crossroad. And I thought, no, there's

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Speaker 2: something in this I want to know, because I remembered

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Speaker 2: funny little details like she said that the guy said

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Speaker 2: that he was an encyclopedia salesman, and that sounded too

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Speaker 2: specific for a cautionary tale. So I texted her and

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Speaker 2: I said, having this memory, was that real?

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Speaker 3: Was that just bullshit? You want to tell me you

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Speaker 3: know when I was a kid. And she said, no,

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Speaker 3: it's real. It's a real case. Two women were murdered

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Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. And I don't think they ever caught

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Speaker 3: the guy.

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Speaker 2: And I went what And I called her. I said,

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Speaker 2: what are you talking about? She said, oh, yeah, the

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Speaker 2: guy came to the door. I was home alone. I

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Speaker 2: was seventeen. Her father had just died, so that puts

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Speaker 2: a timeline on it, like a couple of weeks before

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Speaker 2: her father. So this is April nineteen seventy four, and

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Speaker 2: everyone was up at the funeral home. I was home alone.

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Speaker 2: He knocks. She opens the big wooden door, but not

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Speaker 2: the screen door. He's standing there and he says, oh, hi,

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Speaker 2: I must an encyclopedia. Say when I'm going door to door,

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Speaker 2: I was wondering if I could talk to you about encyclopedias.

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Speaker 2: And they're having a nice little chit chat through the screen,

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Speaker 2: and as they are, she said she just got this

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Speaker 2: full body rush of all the hairs on her arms

287
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Speaker 2: stood on end, and she's thinking, why isn't he carrying anything.

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Speaker 2: He's got no briefcase, no top hat, no pamphlets, no nothing.

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Speaker 2: He's just a dude standing there. And she said he

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Speaker 2: also looked very casually dressed for a daughter store salesman

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Speaker 2: who's wearing a zip up jacket and tan pants, and

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Speaker 2: he had sort of like longish hair. Anyway, she made

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Speaker 2: an excuse because she was having this feeling and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: I've got to ask my dad. And it's really supposed

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Speaker 2: to open the door to people, Hey dad, And as

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Speaker 2: she's called out, hey dad, he just too quickly and

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Speaker 2: walked and I said, well, what are these unsold cases

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Speaker 2: you're talking about? And she said, oh, oh, well one

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Speaker 2: of them. The girl went to my school, actually, Maria McGuinn,

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Speaker 2: and I'm googling it and I've go on, oh my god, mom,

301
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Speaker 2: this is These are two unsolved homicides. There's a million

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Speaker 2: dollar reward on both of them. They're you know, I said,

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Speaker 2: you could be the missing piece of the puzzle. You've

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Speaker 2: seen the guy. Nobody else has seen the guy, you know.

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Speaker 2: And she's like, oh, you're making a big deal. And

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Speaker 2: I said, well it is number one. There's this you

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Speaker 2: might be the key to a fifty year old serial

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Speaker 2: killing and number two. For the last eight years or something,

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Speaker 2: I've been trying to be the foremost crime writer in

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Speaker 2: the country. Do you think you could have mentioned it

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Speaker 2: at any point that.

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Speaker 1: You've had this new two valid points?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know, I said, did you ever

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Speaker 2: talk to the police and said no.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to come over here tomorrow. Whatever

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Speaker 2: you do in the interim, do not google it. You might,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not a police interviewer. So I'm thinking to myself,

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Speaker 2: even by bringing it up and discussing it with her,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm corrupting her memory. So she came over and

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Speaker 2: I said, tell me the story, give me the description,

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Speaker 2: and asked some basic questions that I thought I should ask.

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Speaker 2: I said, did you notice an accent? No, what age

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Speaker 2: was he? What did his hair look like that? What?

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Speaker 2: What did he say exactly? And I wrote it all

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Speaker 2: up and I sent it to the police and they

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Speaker 2: A detective came back and he said, you know, tell

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Speaker 2: me more. So I told him a bit more and

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Speaker 2: he said, yeah, that sounds like him. But you know,

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Speaker 2: without like a name or a number plate, there's not

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Speaker 2: much I can really do with it. So I'm going,

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Speaker 2: what what do you mean There's nothing could do it like.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't enough for me. I'm that person who's always like, well,

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Speaker 2: but but you know, and the arrogance and naivety what

335
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Speaker 2: was talking about earlier. I was thinking, I have been

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Speaker 2: called upon to do something about this, and this is

337
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Speaker 2: not enough, you know what you're saying here and then,

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Speaker 2: and so I thought, okay, that's it. Step aside, everyone,

339
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Speaker 2: I'm going to solve this myself. I'm going to get

340
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Speaker 2: a podcast. I'm going to investigate it. I'm going to

341
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Speaker 2: be the new Headley Thomas watch this, you know. So

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Speaker 2: I wrangled some friends together. I'm like, let's make a podcast.

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Speaker 2: Let's make a podcast. And in the meantime, I'm at

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Speaker 2: Google how to solve a homicide? You know, and I

345
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Speaker 2: realized very quickly that that is not as easy as

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Speaker 2: it is to be. It's like a whole profession.

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Speaker 1: They've just shocked a lot of people.

348
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Speaker 2: Like, but this is how it would go in fiction,

349
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Speaker 2: is the protagonist would be called upon by some strange

350
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 2: things that comes up, and they would get involved, and

351
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Speaker 2: you know, three days later, bingo bango, it's all solved. No,

352
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Speaker 2: that is not what happens. So I did some fiddling around.

353
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Speaker 2: You know. For example, one of the things that has

354
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Speaker 2: come out in the more recent investigations of Maria's murder

355
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Speaker 2: is they're looking for this mustard colored Forward Capri with

356
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Speaker 2: a black racing stripe. So I've got some contacts together,

357
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 2: and I got some at Ford and I was saying,

358
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Speaker 2: I'm investigating a homicide. Can you tell me how many

359
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,040
Speaker 2: must colored Ford Capris there were in Australia between you know,

360
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and nineteen eighty. Oh yeah, I can help

361
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Speaker 2: you with that.

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Speaker 1: No worries yet.

363
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 2: We'll get I'll get back to you very very soon.

364
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,479
Speaker 2: Never heard from them again. And what authority do I

365
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 2: have to say? I'm a crime fiction writer.

366
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Speaker 1: Do you know who I am? Yeah?

367
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Speaker 2: Do you know who I am? Please answer these questions.

368
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 2: So now I'm in this space where the podcast situation

369
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 2: hasn't worked. I'm no good at being a homicide detective

370
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Speaker 2: in real life. I can only do it in fiction.

371
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Speaker 2: And I'm just sitting around and talking to everyone who'll listen.

372
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Speaker 2: And I said to my agent, you know, a couple

373
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Speaker 2: of years had passed at this point. We're trying. We're

374
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Speaker 2: trying or trying. I said to my agent, I feel

375
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: like my talent lies in writing crime fiction. Maybe I

376
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,639
Speaker 2: could write a fictional novel, you know that kind of

377
00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: reimagines aspects of the case. And she's saying, that is

378
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 2: a terrible idea, because you're going to upset you know. Yeah, yeah,

379
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Speaker 2: And I mean this has really happened. Stephen King wrote

380
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 2: a short story inspired by Dennis Raider BTK. Yeah, and

381
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 2: he was imagining it from the perspective of the wife

382
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Speaker 2: and the family and all this you find out, hey,

383
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Speaker 2: dad's a serial killer, and that really had a terrible

384
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Speaker 2: effect on Dennis Raider's daughter, As she said, I felt,

385
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: I felt exploited. I said, they want my agent, Well

386
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Speaker 2: what if?

387
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Speaker 1: Right?

388
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Speaker 2: I met the families of Lynette and Maria, and I said,

389
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,120
Speaker 2: is this okay? You know, and I'm having further ideas.

390
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 2: I'm saying, you know, I've got whenever I bring a

391
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 2: book out, I'm talking to thousands of people. I'm in

392
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: libraries and I'm on the radio, and maybe I can

393
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: spread the word because there are very practical questions that

394
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,400
Speaker 2: the police want to know. They want to know who

395
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 2: lived in those apartment buildings at that time, you know,

396
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,399
Speaker 2: they want to know who owned a Ford. You know,

397
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 2: I can ask practical questions of my audience. So why

398
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: don't I go and meet Lynette and Maria's families and

399
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 2: ask permission? And my agent was like, you have had

400
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: some bad ideas in your time. This really takes the cake.

401
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: Number One, They're going to stand over you while you

402
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 2: write this novel, and if they don't like what you've written,

403
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: you know, too bad for you. And then if you

404
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 2: go out promoting it and put a foot wrong. They're

405
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: going to sue you. And then also, you're going to

406
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 2: look like this, this person who has exploited these family

407
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: members to make a book that you're going to bank

408
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: buck off, Like how are you going to get around that?

409
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: And so I went, Okay, it's a terrible idea. So

410
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 2: I sat around for you know, another year and a

411
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: half not doing anything about it, and then I just went, oh,

412
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: fuck it. So I just wrote I had been staring

413
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 2: at Paul and Steven online, looking at their Facebook pro files,

414
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: trying to find their kids. Yeah, and Maria's brother Peter.

415
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: I would go to his website and I would just

416
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 2: stare at it and I wouldn't cross the border. Then

417
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: I just crossed it and I made contact through a

418
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 2: journalist with Paul. I just sent the message saying I

419
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about your wife's murder. And

420
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,360
Speaker 2: I just said that. So on a rand, I'm at

421
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: the in laws. It's Sunday lunch. I get this phone

422
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: call and he says it's Paul White. Oh my god.

423
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 2: I had not prepared for it, and so I said

424
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: I need to take this phone call. I went anyway

425
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 2: into a quiet room and he said, you wanted you

426
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me about what my wife's murder.

427
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: And I just went blur and I just said, Mom

428
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: just revealed to me that she had this encounter and

429
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: it might you know, I might be the guy.

430
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: I might not.

431
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 2: I don't know. What's you And I tried to get

432
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: a podcast up, you know, And I'm saying to him,

433
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: I really wanted to write a novel about it. But

434
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: it's not going to be like Dexter, you know, or

435
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: like I'm the serial killer. I'm enjoying it all that.

436
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: But I have this idea, you know, and I want

437
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: to put an afterward in the back of the novel,

438
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 2: which is a call to the reader to say, maybe

439
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: you can help, because there's things that we, you know,

440
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: we could do as a society. I want to bring

441
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: public knowledge to this case. I know it's been done

442
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: a lot already, but maybe I could get that one

443
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: person who says, oh, actually, you know, look my mom

444
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 2: has My mom said she never told anyone. She said,

445
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: I told you kids, and I told you Dad, but

446
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 2: otherwise I had not told anyone.

447
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: Well, solving these unsolved crimes, quite often is that one

448
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: piece of information that that breakthrough coupled with what we've

449
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: got in forensic technology. Yeah, so Paul, I know Paul.

450
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: I met Paul. He reached out to me after I

451
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: left the cops and talking about his concerns the way

452
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: the investigation was being approached, and to me, I always

453
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: choose or tread careful when you're dealing with people who

454
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 1: have been traumatized for horrendous situations. But he seemed like

455
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: a very balanced person. He wasn't expecting expecting miracles, but

456
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: he just wanted to make sure everything that could be

457
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: done was done, and that was his concern when I

458
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: met with him, that things were not heading in the

459
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: right direction. I gave him some advice. I don't know

460
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: if it helped or not, but I can imagine the

461
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: reception you got from him. It was probably the best

462
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 1: person you could speak to because he is such a

463
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: nice human being and he still desperately wants to find

464
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: out what's happened, what happened to his wife.

465
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: He said, I'll never give up. Yeah, until the day

466
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: I don't. I'll never give up. And so it was

467
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 2: incredibly nerve wracking meeting him for the first time, because he's,

468
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 2: like you say, he's a gentle and balanced person, but

469
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: it doesn't give a lot away in the beginning. And

470
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: he said, why don't we meet After I'd done him

471
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: what's fluttering? He said, why don't we meet for coffee?

472
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 2: And so I met him for coffee and he heard

473
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: my account, and I said, I understand all of the

474
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 2: feelings that you might have towards someone like me who

475
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 2: writes crime fiction, who basically turns what has happened to

476
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: you the worst thing that's ever happened to you in

477
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: your life. I assume I turned it into entertainment for everyone.

478
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: And you know, there was someone who did something with

479
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: Lawrence and Roy and the documentary surrounding their murders. And

480
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: I know that at the cocktail party that was celebrating

481
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: that documentary, they had cocktails that were all named after

482
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: different tools that they used, So they had like screwdriver

483
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: and flyers and all that for those cocktails. I'm saying

484
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: to Paul, I know the terrible, gimmicky things that can

485
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: come out of crime fiction, but that is not where

486
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: I'm coming at. You know, if this, if my mother

487
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: had let this guy in, I would not be here

488
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: and she would not be here. And also my feeling,

489
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: particularly with Lynette. And maybe that's why I approached Paul first,

490
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 2: is that I was after a year and a half

491
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: of having Violet, I was really enjoying being a mother.

492
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: I was out of the trenches and I had this

493
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: beautiful child. And Lynette never got to that stage. She

494
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: was murdered in her apartment. Paul was off to work

495
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 2: and she was there with an eleven week old baby

496
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: and this guy has come in and murdered her, you know,

497
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: at something like ten o'clock in the morning on an

498
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: everyday morning, and that journey was ended for her. And

499
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 2: the unfairness of it of saying, I'm going to put

500
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 2: this experience that I want to have with you over

501
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: your motherhood of that child. In the same room, I

502
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: was pauled, and I was crying at the at the

503
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: table with Paul and thinking, at what right do I

504
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: have to cry over the loss of your wife? But

505
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: it just started happening and he said, I feel like

506
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: you have good intentions, and I thought, oh, good, Okay,

507
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do something and I don't know what

508
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: I can do, and this is the only thing that

509
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 2: I could do. And he said, no, I think it's

510
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: a good idea. You know. So then through Paul I

511
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: met Stephen, so Steven's wife Maria. It's the same thing.

512
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: Ordinary morning, you know, Stephen goes off to work at

513
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: seven point thirty. She's supposed to arrive where she was

514
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: being a student teacher at my mother's school at eight thirty.

515
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: She never makes it there. He comes home that night

516
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: to find she's been raped and strangled with pannyhoes, Yeah,

517
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: in their apartment. Then we get into the journey of

518
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: how do I write this book? And you know, I

519
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: met the two guys, I met the wives, and I'm

520
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: saying to them, I cannot write this book how it

521
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: happened for you. I can't even set it in the

522
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: Eastern Beaches because I might be implicating people, even unintentionally,

523
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: with these characters with red herrings and things that affects

524
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: real world people who might have been looked at for

525
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: the case, or the cops as well. I don't want

526
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: to have a cop character and say, well, this was

527
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 2: clearly that guy who worked at the Kuji Police at

528
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: that time. And I was writing the novel and I

529
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: was saying to them, I can only have one husband

530
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: in the book because I can't have these two separate scenes,

531
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 2: you know, where they go and meet two separate husbands

532
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: and hear the same thing. I've got to roll them

533
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: both into one. So I'm sorry. I've essentially deleted one

534
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: of you. And in the novel, I didn't want the

535
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: reader to place so much suspicion on the husband. I

536
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: wanted you to just come into the scene, empathize with

537
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: the husband, and then get out again and keep looking

538
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: around the book for the killer. So I've had it

539
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,239
Speaker 2: so that the husband doesn't find the bodies. So that

540
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: experience that you had coming home to a darkened apartment,

541
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: flicking the lights on finding your wife murdered in this

542
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: horrific way, I've had to delete it. And what a

543
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: thing to have to say to someone, because I'm trying

544
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: to say, I'm not discounting what happened to you, but

545
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: plot wise and crime fiction wise, I can't do it

546
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: that way. And it was so hard, and these guys

547
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: were so understanding.

548
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: I haven't met Steve, but Paul, I can imagine, and

549
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: I think, and this is a testing my memory. Paul

550
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: was also trying to push for cards in prison where

551
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: unsolved murders the prisoners sit there playing cards and they

552
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: have rewards. It's a trigger, and I think it's been tried.

553
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's a different state or tried overseas,

554
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: and there's been some success from it.

555
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: He said, I'll try anything, but.

556
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: What you've discovered, Yeah, you might write fictional crime, but

557
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: what you've discovered is the pain of homicide. This is

558
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: what fifty years ago, these crimes, and it's still impacting

559
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: on people to.

560
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: This day every day. And he was getting tiery. And

561
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: I've seen Steve get tiery, and it seems to me

562
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,719
Speaker 2: that the emotion is right there all the time with

563
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: these guys, and it never goes away. It just sits there,

564
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: and as soon as you start talking about it, it's

565
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: right out. And that's half a century later, and it's

566
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: exactly what I was trying to say to Lawrence. I

567
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: was sitting there with the serial killer, saying, this person

568
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: is not a hand flick and then get over it.

569
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: But he couldn't understand. And so, yeah, listening to Paul

570
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: and Stephen, I was wandering around this territory of trying

571
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: not to retraumatize them and saying, oh, so what was

572
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: they like, you know, or saying, you know, how did

573
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: you guys meet and that kind of thing, and their

574
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: wives are there as well, so it's like, how do

575
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: I do this? And then, you know, I wrote the novel.

576
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: They didn't see it at all until it was completed,

577
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: and then I sent it off to them. I emailed

578
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: it off and then I just sat there just buzzing

579
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: with terror. I think it was three days or something

580
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: before Paul got back, because I've tried to encompass emotionally

581
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: in the novel what these guys experienced, having not experienced

582
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: it at all myself, you know, and they've trust they've

583
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: really trusted me to do it and to go out

584
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: and to talk. And I said to them, the day

585
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: of printing is going to be December nineteen, so all

586
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: the way up until midnight December nineteen. Yeah, I said,

587
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: you let me know. If there's something I say, or

588
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: something you read, or you just get a feeling and

589
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: you want to say, I'm out, then you'll be out.

590
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: I'll take them right out. I'll change the novel so

591
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: it's unrecognizable. I'll take the afterward out, and I won't

592
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: talk in interviews at all. I'll never speak your wife's name.

593
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: Look, I think one thought a couple of things I

594
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: want to pick up on. You mentioned Headley Thomas the

595
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: podcast will that helped solve a murder, and that was

596
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: initially I know, police was skeptical about it. Police are going, no,

597
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: this is not going to happen. The family law court Bomber.

598
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: I think there was an episode that what was the

599
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: Channel seven equivalent of sixty minutes at the time, back

600
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: in the day that came out and on the back

601
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: of that that case was solved. Now the police are

602
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: going to deny saying that I was working in unsolved homicide.

603
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: What goes on and that pressure, that focus puts the

604
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: police putting resources into it, getting the breakthrough. The reason

605
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: I raise that you're doing. Some people might call hair

606
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: brain schein. How's that going to help? Who knows? Who knows?

607
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: But I think from a victim's point of view, the

608
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: family of victims, they just want to make sure everything's

609
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: being done that can be done, and so is there

610
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: any any harm in trying that? And I think policing

611
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: has got to understand that when you're dealing with traumatize

612
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: people following murders, unsolved murders, or disappearances, that it doesn't

613
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: go away. You have experience that now in real life

614
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: fifty years down the track, and you see the pain

615
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: that's so raw. So they've got to make sure they

616
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: do everything possible. Keep the families informed, keep them informed,

617
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: because that was a lot of the anks with unsolved

618
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: homicide is that the family members that are not being

619
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: informed by the police what's happening, and they sit there

620
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: and quite often the family are too polite to phone

621
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: the police up and go, hey, what's happening. You said

622
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: you'd keep me informed. It's been two or three years

623
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: since I've heard from you, that person no longer works

624
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: here or whatever. There's I think a lot of the

625
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: pain can be reduced by keeping keeping the families informed.

626
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: Having said that, like unsolved homicide, I love it, and

627
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: we talked about in part one where you see old

628
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: cases that have been solved, whether it's from someone coming

629
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: forward or improvements in technology forensic technology. But yeah, it's

630
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: worth worth giving giving a try to what you've done.

631
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: My last thing that I want to do, ever, is

632
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: piss off the police and also suggest that they've done.

633
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: All right, don't worry about that.

634
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: No implications to that's possible.

635
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: We happened to.

636
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: Look, you know, because it's been fifty one years. This

637
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 2: case has got a lot of work on it, it's

638
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: reviewed a lot. Yes, there were mistakes in the beginning,

639
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: like there is no physical evidence whatsoever, you know, remaining

640
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: of these cases. And Paul and Stephen have been driving,

641
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: driving driving the police to say, I've just seen this

642
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: case where where somebody's box of evidence turned up in

643
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 2: an attic, And I've just seen this case where, you know,

644
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 2: and I'm hearing rumors about these about homicide, drawing all

645
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: these evidence boxes in and then them sitting there and

646
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 2: they're not categorizing them. And Paul and Steven are saying

647
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: to the police, is the is the evidence really missing?

648
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: Is it really missing? But there have also been wonderful

649
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: things done on this case where after forty seven years

650
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: they went back to Paul and yeah, yeah, I used

651
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: it in the book as floorboards, but it was carpet.

652
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,320
Speaker 2: Our detective pulled up the carpet and took a DNA

653
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: swab from a bloodstain that you found it, so that

654
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: they have some DNA of the killer. So and I

655
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm sitting there going how many forward capris

656
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: were there in you know, it's possible that police have

657
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: already done that. They're not going to tell me everything

658
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: that they've done. I'm sure they've been hammering this case

659
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: a lot. But what I'm trying to do is something different.

660
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: I'm trying to reach a reader, maybe like my mum,

661
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: who thought it's not important and I wasn't sure and

662
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: I never told anyone. Maybe I'll get that one person

663
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: by doing this. And I hope that I wrote a

664
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: story where I kind of paid tribute to the pain

665
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,959
Speaker 2: and complexity of being involved in murder. Like I'm taking

666
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: it from two perspectives. In this book. I'm looking at

667
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: victims of murder. I'm also looking at family members of

668
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: a murderer and what it's like to be around a

669
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: murderer and to not know. And so I said it

670
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: somewhere rural. It is based on a real town, So

671
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: I hope I don't annoy anyone from that town. I

672
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 2: haven't said which town. I hope I don't annoy anyone

673
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: from there. But you know, the book is going out there,

674
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: and I am trying to do everything I can to

675
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: because you know, like I said, I was handed this

676
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 2: hot potato and I'm just now feeling like I'm passing

677
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: it on maybe.

678
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, the fact, I think in any eventure you go

679
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: down when you're dealing with a true crime event that's

680
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: actually happened. The fact that you've reached out to the

681
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: family so that they've had some input and all that.

682
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: I can imagine how they feel exploited if no one

683
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: reaches reaches out to them.

684
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't think it's ever been done. I

685
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 2: think crime writers, you know, not ever ever, I'm sure

686
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: it's been done, but I think that that crime writers

687
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 2: will write about a crime and they'll put it in

688
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: there and they'll disguise it. And I certainly have done this.

689
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 2: Hope that you disguise it well enough so that you

690
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 2: know that murderer's brother or that victim's father doesn't read

691
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: it and go, oh, clearly this is inspired by what

692
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 2: happened to me. I've just come out, and this time

693
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: I've come out, and because obviously I wrote about Lawrence

694
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 2: in those books and what he did, and I was

695
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 2: tapping into the mind of a murderer. But I didn't

696
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: want to tiptoe through that gray area anymore. I wanted

697
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 2: to stomp through it and find my way through this.

698
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, surely there's a way to do this

699
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: where I don't hurt anyone, because I said to the

700
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: guys hurting you or your kids or you know, Maria's brother,

701
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 2: if there's any threat of that at all, I'm out.

702
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: Well was it years ago? Got it in the notes

703
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,800
Speaker 1: here where the police were making public appeals for information,

704
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: so they must think there's looking for that missing missing piece.

705
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in Paul and Paul and Lynnette's apartment block,

706
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 2: they still don't know everyone who lived in that apartment block.

707
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: If you can find someone who just lived there. There

708
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: was a group of UK backpackers from the UK that

709
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: lived there, very interested in them, and they can't find

710
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: who they were, you know, because it was backpackers moving

711
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: in and out and paying cash and yeah, all this

712
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

713
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: Well, it's worth worthwhile. But I understand you reluctance or

714
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: concerns about doing something where you're delving from fiction into real.

715
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,959
Speaker 1: That's why when I looked at the cover and thought,

716
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: oh this is brave. Where are we going here? I

717
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: enjoyed enjoyed the route. It's yeah, and I know the

718
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: area that you're talking about because I did a lot

719
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: of I did a lot of policing out there.

720
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: I won't because I go there and I don't want to.

721
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had some interesting experiences out in those parts.

722
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: I knew it was I knew there was a history there.

723
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: I could feel it. I thought, this is where the

724
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: weirdos are, you know, not all of them, but they're

725
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: hidden in these hills.

726
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's some interesting things. Hey guys, it's Gary

727
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: jubilin here. I want to get more out of I

728
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. Then you should head over to our new

729
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: video feed on Spotify, where you can watch every episode

730
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: of I Catch Killers. Just search for I Catch Killers

731
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: video in your Spotify app and start watching today. Just

732
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: before we've finished talking about those particular cases in your book,

733
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: this is in the author's note, and I think I

734
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: just want to read that out. And so this is

735
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 1: at the end of the book. In the end true

736
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: crime fictions, conventions and expectations, we meet the killer. He

737
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: gets what he deserves, the answers and closure. At the

738
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: time of writing this afterward, none of these things have

739
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: been available to Paul and Stephen and everyone who lost

740
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Lynnette and Maria. I will never be able to write

741
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: a book of fiction that completely encompasses the tragedy of

742
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: experience murdering real life. I don't believe anyone can. I'm

743
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: glad you put that in because that's what the message

744
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: I try to get across, because I'm conflicted too. I'm

745
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: now in a space where I used to work in

746
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: the cops and now I'm working in the media and

747
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: the focus is true crime. But if you can do

748
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: anything doing the podcast that we do, letting people understand

749
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: the pain of what happens when someone's been murdered, because

750
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: unless you've seen that firsthand, I'm telling you you don't

751
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: get it.

752
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: And the thing about crime fiction as a mode is that,

753
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: of course you get closure because that's what the reader

754
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: wants and expects. And so I had to say to

755
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: Paul and Stephen, it's going to be solved. I'm going

756
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: to tell you who the killer is, and they're going

757
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: to get what they deserve. But you don't get that,

758
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: and I'm sorry, and you may never get that. I

759
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: hope that you do, but you may never. And that's

760
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: something that I cannot do in crime fiction is try

761
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: to paint a picture of that forever and forever and

762
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 2: forever of not knowing. There's so many things that went

763
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: into this book, and because they went in, they illustrate

764
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: for me the unfairness. You know, when you meet the

765
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: husband of the murdered wife, he defiantly says, well, I

766
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: never moved out of this house. I stayed here because

767
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to take that house from me. Took

768
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: my wife. He's not going to take my house, and

769
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: she was happy here. Well, guess what, both Paul and

770
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: Stephen had to move out of their apartments, and they

771
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: would have walked into those apartments for the first time

772
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 2: with Lynette and Maria, and they would have been young

773
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: and married, and Paul and Lynett had got a baby,

774
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: and they would have walked in there for the first time, excited,

775
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: this is our new apartment. How wonderful. And at the

776
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: end of that story, it's Stephen and Paul walking out

777
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 2: alone because that's where their wife died, and that dream

778
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: of that home was destroyed by this personal persons. You know,

779
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: they don't the police don't know whether it's one killer

780
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: or two. You know. I go into great detail in

781
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: the afterward about these cases and what police want to know.

782
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 2: So I hope people will pick it up and read

783
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: it and think to themselves. But that's it's not possible

784
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: to do it with fiction. And so I guess this

785
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: whole journey has been in about, you know, because like

786
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: I said, I was going to solve it. I was

787
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: going to I was going to be the person who

788
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: knocked on the killer's door and he comes out and

789
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: he's eighty and I'm like, guess what ding dong, motherfucker,

790
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 2: and I punched him in the face and then the

791
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: cops swirling and they get him. It has been all

792
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: about learning the name of Heley.

793
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: Who's Headley Thomas.

794
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. She was there, she punched him,

795
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: and I'd say to the judge and I'd do it again,

796
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: you know. And it has been learning that. I have

797
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 2: very big dreams about how you could get rid of

798
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: that pain of homicide, but they're all incredibly fictional, you know.

799
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: Well, the pain of homicide and put this into your

800
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: memory for potential future books. After I left the police,

801
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: I went and visited the mother of Michelle Pogmore. Michelle

802
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: was murdered in Mount Dreuitt a long long time ago,

803
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: I think fifteen years ago or more. A third year

804
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: old girl just found dumped in the park.

805
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 2: She'd been to a party.

806
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: I remember that she'd been there. It was just horrific,

807
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: and I was the on call, the officer for it,

808
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: went to the crime scene and spoke to Michelle's mum

809
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: and we've stayed in touch over the years. I wasn't

810
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: running the investigation, but from the initial long call I

811
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: made the connection with the mother. After I left the police,

812
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: I thought that I'd go around and see her because

813
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: she contacted me when I was in the police and

814
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: she had a bedroom set up for Michelle exactly the

815
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: way it was when she left, with tweety birds on

816
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: the on the walls and all that. I asked, what's

817
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: that about, and she said, I just can't bring it

818
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 1: to take it down. Yeah, now that is carrying pain.

819
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 1: That's unimaginable.

820
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's for me. I look into the photos because

821
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: I've seen photos that aren't out there in the press

822
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: of Lynette and Maria, those personal ones. You know that

823
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 2: that Paul and Steven keep to themselves, and you can see,

824
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: you can see how happy these women were. And I

825
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: feel a particular affinity for Lynnette, who.

826
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: Was like me.

827
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: She's got her hands in everything. You know, she's a

828
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: dancer and she's got a salon and she's you know,

829
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: she's selling products, and she's got a kid, and she's

830
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: juggling all this kind of stuff, embracing life, yeah, really

831
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: living and never stopping. And that was part of the

832
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: you know, the suspect pool is enormous because they know

833
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: so many people, and I felt like, you know, I

834
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: felt something for her, and then meeting Steven and learning

835
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 2: about Maria, I just I stepped deep into it. So

836
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 2: I hope the effect that I've had is good.

837
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: Well, we're talking about that's that's it right now. I

838
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: think the fact that the families and that's frustration that

839
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: their loved one has been forgotten. And so the fact

840
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: that people are talking about I think that pays tribute

841
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: to the victims in a way that their life counted

842
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: and they haven't been forgotten, and it helps, it helps

843
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: her families and place. Quite often they're doing a really

844
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: good job trying and the solver murder, but they're not

845
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: updating the families. And yeah, that's that's concerning. Let's lighten

846
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: it up a little bit. Okay, just a little bit,

847
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: because you probably take us into a dark place anyway.

848
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: You all the same, these crime writers and types, your

849
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: favorite characters. Oh, Goshi a kid? Is it?

850
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: It is? It is? Look Russell and Bridy in this book.

851
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 2: Ten out of ten would write them again. I love them.

852
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 2: They're so much fun, and particularly Bridy with the animal rescue.

853
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: She's an animal rescuer.

854
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: What was that based on that?

855
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: That's a little bit just on experiences I have had this.

856
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: You know, sure the listener wouldn't have picked that up,

857
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: picked that up.

858
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 2: So at the moment, it's probably Russell and Bridy. I've

859
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: written the next book in the row and almost finished

860
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 2: your first draft, and I feel like after the first draft,

861
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: I've only just starting to get to know those characters.

862
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: So I've sketched it out. The builders that I based

863
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: the their heist crew for that book. It's called Devil's Kitchen,

864
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: and I based it on these real builders who are

865
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 2: in my backyard. I still see one of those builders

866
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: around and I'm like, ah, there is you know, and.

867
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: So you're they're they're four men building crew, but you

868
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: put them doing.

869
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: Robber yeah, the highest Yeah, they had a vibe they had.

870
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: I'm sure they're not criminals. I'm sure they're not, but

871
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: they had a kind of a gang vibe. And I

872
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: could very easily see them as a.

873
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: High st still trying to solve that robbery fan where

874
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: they turned up as a group of builders.

875
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: Really, I could see it.

876
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: What about in fictional crime stories a dysfunctional detectives? Are

877
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: all detectives dysfunctional in some way?

878
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: See this is when whenever somebody comes up to me

879
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: in a book talk and they say, oh, I'm a

880
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 2: police officer, I always go, I'm sorry. You know, they're

881
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 2: so corrupt. In my early books, they were always corrupt

882
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: because you're trying to throw as much bad stuff at

883
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: the protagonists as you can. And if they're working in

884
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: a police station where you know, there's all this underhanded

885
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 2: ness going on and bullying and sexual harassment and nobody

886
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: knows how to do their job, it's just hard for

887
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: that protagonist to do their job, you know. So I

888
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: always go, oh, my god, you're either about to tell

889
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: me about some factoid that I've gotten wrong. You know,

890
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: there's more than two people on a crime scene canvas,

891
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 2: there's like thirty people like, hey, yes, but for plus

892
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: reasons this too, you know, you know, or you're about

893
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: to say, could you stop making all the cops so corrupt?

894
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, now in this In this novel in Red

895
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: Belly Crossing, Russell's the cop and his mo o is

896
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: just to walk around and just be aggressively awful to

897
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: everyone you know. Have you ever known do? Were you

898
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: reading that and thinking I know a guys.

899
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: Just like that. No, I saw no similarities whatsoever, So

900
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: help me God. No, I understand it in different contexts.

901
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: But I would put on, not put on, but I

902
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: would carry a persona. If I'm in the middle of

903
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: a job, there is absolutely no time for niceties, and

904
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: forget your f and cup of tea like we're having

905
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: a briefing. I don't care if you haven't had your coffee.

906
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: This needs to be done and maybe I could have

907
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: done it, done it differently, but it's not in me

908
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: because I think I think investigations are too important. People

909
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: that get to name me go, hey, you actually smile. Well,

910
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to smile in the middle of a

911
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 1: homicide investigation when we're all under pressure. Just do your

912
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: work and will smile afterwards.

913
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to be more like a Doberman energy

914
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: rather than like golden Retriet.

915
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: And I saw like I'm easy to work with, but

916
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: the persona when things need to be done, and they

917
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: need to be done now, and don't stuff this up.

918
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: I've had investigations where people have made mistakes and literally

919
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 1: murderers have got away, which we all make mistakes. I've

920
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: made mistakes. We all make mistakes, but they've made mistakes

921
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: out of laziness and that pisses me off. And then

922
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,959
Speaker 1: when you front them on it, they don't even care.

923
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 1: Like I've had people that I spoke to that have

924
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: made the mistake and I'm thinking, I better keep a watch.

925
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: That might be self harm. You want to you know,

926
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: that's how do they live with that? They walk out

927
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: and then they're laughing with their mates straight away.

928
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: But did you have you enjoyed the ways in which

929
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: you've been represented in fiction? I know you've had the

930
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 2: crime writing colleagues at mine specifically say you inspired that character.

931
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: Have you enjoyed that or have found it weird?

932
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: Or look, I find it funny? And yeah, I think

933
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: I've gone past because my experience with the Underbelly thing

934
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: where the TV series where they're representing me in my

935
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: personal life and all that, like any sense of privacy

936
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: was gone at that stage. So I know I've had

937
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people that have contacted me to get

938
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: the nuances of what life of a detective is. And

939
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 1: for some reason they think, yeah, a couple of failed marriages,

940
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: a little bit of getting charged, high profile, high profile jobs.

941
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 2: See that story is very popular in the genre of

942
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 2: crime fiction going back decades. It's the rogue detective, the

943
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 2: fouled marriages because he's wedded to the job. You know,

944
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: so now he's single in the novels so that he

945
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 2: can find a leading lady and all.

946
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: This, and yeah, well, yeah, the period.

947
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is you very cliche, I feel like,

948
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 2: and when I would come home and sit there in

949
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 2: my empty apartment because of another failed relationship, eating my.

950
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,439
Speaker 1: Pizza whilst having come from a crime scene, I think,

951
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: what But I know in like, I half joke about this.

952
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: Well I do joke about it. I don't really mean it.

953
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: But I would often say to people, what, once you've

954
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: had your first divorce, then you'll become a real detective.

955
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: And having said that, I fully support the sanct of marriage,

956
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, and I promote marriage. And there's some great

957
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: detectives that never have a divorce, but there's lots of separation.

958
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: But I worked on one and I won't mention the name,

959
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: but it was quite quite funny because I've been there

960
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: when I was going through let's say, relationship issues. It

961
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: was harder for the crooks because I had so much

962
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: time on my hand, and it's a weekend, I'm going

963
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: to work, and I would do that just because that

964
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: was easier than dealing with the pain of my own stuff. Ups. Yeah,

965
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: to just throw yourself in the work and you felt

966
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: good about yourself. But I had one young bloke on

967
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: a investigation and he will always seem to be available,

968
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: and like, who can work back? I can, boss, And

969
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: he was from the local area command, hadn't worked homicide before.

970
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: I can, boss, I need someone to do this, I'll

971
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: do that. And that went on for about three months

972
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 1: and I was impressed, totally committed. And then it got

973
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 1: to a bit weird, like he could I'd be in

974
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: on the weekends working. He'd be on weekends working, And

975
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: I said, what's going on? He said, ah, bit of

976
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: trouble in for private life is to bury myself in

977
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: the work. So yeah, and he's a great, great detective

978
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: and now he's happily married and he's got a kid.

979
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: But we might we might wrap it up here and

980
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: we'll keep informed if any any breakthrough is on the

981
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: case from the book. But yeah, normally if I thank

982
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: thank guests for coming on, I thank them please for

983
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: their services. I'm going to thank you for the wildlife

984
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: of this country. Oh yeah, the amount of rescues. How

985
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: many you were telling me the other day, how many

986
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: rescues have.

987
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: You done this year? I'm up to seventy two birds

988
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:04,760
Speaker 2: this year, and they're mostly dumped chickens, ducks, quails, fantail pigeons. Yeah,

989
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 2: I'm specializing at the moment on poultry and birds. I'm

990
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 2: up to seventy two.

991
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: Well, good on you, that is. I'd say it like

992
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's coming across as a joke, but

993
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: there are people out there like you that are doing

994
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: these things. Also, congratulations on your career from the Setbacks.

995
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: Imagine if you just gave up after the first novel. Yeah,

996
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: and I'm not a giver twenty two. By the time

997
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: we speak to you next week, you've probably got twenty

998
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 1: four books. So yeah, pleasure speaking to you.

999
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: Always have fun, and this has been a real career

1000
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: goal Bingo card coming on eye catch killers. I thought

1001
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: one you know, when you started the podcast, I was like,

1002
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 2: I said to my publicist, start pitching now, I want

1003
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: to be on that show.

1004
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you came on the podcast. So it's

1005
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 1: a privilege sitting down having your chat with you and

1006
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 1: a lot of fun.

1007
00:54:54,960 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: Oh good, thanks cheers. Nineteen two ninet