WEBVTT - Trapped in a Cambodian scam factory

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Earlier

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<v Speaker 1>this year, authorities found something extraordinary inside a Cambodian scam compound,

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<v Speaker 1>a fake Australian Federal Police office. There were Australian flags,

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<v Speaker 1>AFP logos and desk staged to look official, all part

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<v Speaker 1>of a six story compound is by scammers impersonating police

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<v Speaker 1>forces from.

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<v Speaker 2>Around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>It was reminded that the scam messages Australians receiver often

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<v Speaker 1>connected to a far more sophisticated and exploitative criminal industry.

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<v Speaker 1>New figure show Australians reported more than two billion dollars

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<v Speaker 1>in scam losses last year, and a recent ye Wan

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<v Speaker 1>report has detailed how people are trafficked into scam centers,

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<v Speaker 1>held against their will, and forced to target strangers online. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>we're bringing you an episode from last year with Ben Yo.

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<v Speaker 1>In early twenty twenty four, Ben and his wife were

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<v Speaker 1>kidnapped and trapped inside one of those Cambodian scam factories.

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<v Speaker 1>This is the story of how they escaped and why

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<v Speaker 1>so many others can't. It's Sunday, June seven. This episode

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<v Speaker 1>was originally published in March twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 3>Well First of all, thank you again for coming on

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<v Speaker 3>the show and for talking to me. I really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>You're welcome, we'll welcome. Sorry, I'm a bit nervous this morning.

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<v Speaker 3>No, that's okay, It's very understandable. So to begin with,

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<v Speaker 3>had you ever heard about scam compounds before?

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<v Speaker 2>I have heard of these compounds, but I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>that it was so widespread. But I didn't know there

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<v Speaker 2>was like few hundred thousand people working in the industry there,

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<v Speaker 2>So not until I actually got into one myself.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I suppose you would never have thought something

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<v Speaker 3>like this would happen to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, of course never.

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<v Speaker 3>Ben's O'Dell started in early twenty twenty four, shortly after

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<v Speaker 3>he got married. Ben's Malaysian and his new wife is Filipino,

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<v Speaker 3>and they were looking for a change in scenery in

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<v Speaker 3>a third country. Until that point, Ben was a freelance

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<v Speaker 3>business consultant who had worked across Southeast Asia, but after

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<v Speaker 3>that work began to dry up during COVID, he was

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<v Speaker 3>open to something new.

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<v Speaker 2>So what happened was me and my wife we decided

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<v Speaker 2>to go to Cambodia to start our life over there.

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<v Speaker 2>And so my wife, she was a croupiers. She's a

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<v Speaker 2>casino dealer. She does like black jack and poker, and

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<v Speaker 2>she got a friend who introduced her to this job

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<v Speaker 2>posting on a human resource agency. One of the ads

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<v Speaker 2>was croupier and the other says business development. So we

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<v Speaker 2>responded to the ad. They did a first interview, second interview.

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<v Speaker 2>They were quite convincing. They asked all the right questions,

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<v Speaker 2>which a normal hl with us, you know, and they

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<v Speaker 2>talk about our salary and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Then also looked into the company who owned the casino

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<v Speaker 3>and saw they had all the right government approvals and licenses.

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<v Speaker 3>There was nothing to suggest the job wasn't real.

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<v Speaker 2>I felt hopeful at that point, you know, I thought

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<v Speaker 2>we were going to a country which I know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>familiar with. I speak the language, so you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of confident. Before leaving for Cambodia, we gave

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<v Speaker 2>up the house, you know, I saw my car. We

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<v Speaker 2>thought that we'll be there for a couple of years, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, Okay, And so then what happened next.

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<v Speaker 2>So we got on a plane, we flew down to Cambodia.

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<v Speaker 2>They told us there would be pick up at the airport,

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<v Speaker 2>and when they picked us up, and drove to this

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<v Speaker 2>place called Balvett, which is about three three to four

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<v Speaker 2>hours drive away. It's just right at the Vietnam border.

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<v Speaker 2>So another reason why we felt that the job was

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<v Speaker 2>real was because Balvett is a especial economic zone. Four casinos.

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<v Speaker 2>But when we got to Bavette, they brought us to

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<v Speaker 2>a compound which is behind the casinos. The archers to

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<v Speaker 2>the compound was about two stories high, barbed wired. It

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<v Speaker 2>was heavily guarded, just like a prison, you know. So

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<v Speaker 2>they told us before going in. They told us it

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<v Speaker 2>was just like the staff quarters, you know, And so

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<v Speaker 2>we believed him and we walked in just like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And when the dog closed on us, it brought us

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<v Speaker 2>to our quarters. And from there they told us that

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<v Speaker 2>the job that you applied for it was just a lie.

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<v Speaker 2>You are now in a scam camp. And if he

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to go home and we want to leave, we

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<v Speaker 2>have to pay them to the tune of ten thousand

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<v Speaker 2>US dollars.

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<v Speaker 3>That must have been a very frightening moment for you

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<v Speaker 3>and for your wife that you couldn't leave the compound.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it was quite it was quite shocking, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we couldn't sleep for about treaties. I think we tried

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<v Speaker 2>to take all of it in. You know, watch how

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<v Speaker 2>other people behave.

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<v Speaker 3>Were other people also tricked like you.

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<v Speaker 2>I think half of them at least were scamming to

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<v Speaker 2>the compound, but most of them was from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of them applied as a nurse, some of them

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<v Speaker 2>applied as teachers, I think engineers, it workers. Most of

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<v Speaker 2>them didn't have a choice. They most of them are

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<v Speaker 2>stuck there, you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, they were stuck inside a self contained city. It

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<v Speaker 3>even had its own grocery store. The compound had around

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<v Speaker 3>two hundred bungalows, which each housed about fifty people. And

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<v Speaker 3>it's from these compounds that workers are forced to run

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<v Speaker 3>cyber scams on grueling shifts with tough targets. Each compound

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<v Speaker 3>specialized in a different scam. For example, there are entire

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<v Speaker 3>compounds dedicated to scamming Australians using love fraud. But Ben

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<v Speaker 3>says he and his wife found themselves in a compound

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<v Speaker 3>targeting people in India with a credit card scam, and

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<v Speaker 3>that some local police were in on the scam.

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<v Speaker 2>So they were called the Indian people do a spam

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<v Speaker 2>call and informed the victim that he has outstanding balance

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<v Speaker 2>with his credit card. So from credit card department, they

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<v Speaker 2>were passed to the police and the police were frightening them,

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<v Speaker 2>saying that you know their their bank account has been

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<v Speaker 2>linked to drugs or murders and things like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how they know pray on the week.

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<v Speaker 3>At first, because of his language skills, Ben was asked

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<v Speaker 3>to teach the other workers English, but he says after

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<v Speaker 3>two weeks it was his turn to pick up the

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<v Speaker 3>phone and start scamming. But Ben refused to cooperate, and

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<v Speaker 3>that's when the guards turned violent.

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<v Speaker 2>They isolated us, me and my wife. They finally brought

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<v Speaker 2>me into a room which especially made prison, so they

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<v Speaker 2>cuffed me to the floor. They handcuffed me to the

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<v Speaker 2>floor so I couldn't stand. Of course, they didn't give

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<v Speaker 2>me water and food. It was really it was really

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<v Speaker 2>challenging at the time because I'm worried for my wife.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I was handcuffed. There were so many guards.

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<v Speaker 3>And what were they saying to you about what they

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<v Speaker 3>wanted you to do to make that end.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted me to pay twenty thousand US dollars for

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<v Speaker 2>them to release me and my wife. All I could

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<v Speaker 2>do was pray, you know, in the darkest hours. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's where you know, I found God.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up. How Benley's wife skyped.

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<v Speaker 3>Ben, you were held in isolation for ten days because

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<v Speaker 3>you refused to do any scams. You were essentially held

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<v Speaker 3>to ransom. How did you actually manage to get out?

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<v Speaker 2>We managed to hike a full so that we would

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<v Speaker 2>be able to give my parents the location of the

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<v Speaker 2>police and you know what to tell the embassy on

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<v Speaker 2>where we are at. So I believe the communication to

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<v Speaker 2>the full between my parents and my wife, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>how he managed to get the police to come.

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<v Speaker 3>But the police coming to the compound was just the beginning.

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<v Speaker 3>The whole ordeal of trying to get home would take

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<v Speaker 3>months Before the compound guards released him to the police.

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<v Speaker 3>They forced him to record a video saying he had

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<v Speaker 3>been well treated, that he hadn't been kidnapped. Once he'd

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<v Speaker 3>done that, he was able to go with them, but

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<v Speaker 3>again at the police station, he was made to sign

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<v Speaker 3>a statement again saying he hadn't been trafficked. Ben says

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<v Speaker 3>a representative from the company was there in the room

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<v Speaker 3>as they demanded he sign.

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<v Speaker 2>I was pretty afraid on that day itself, what did

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<v Speaker 2>you do? Well? We had no choice but to sign

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<v Speaker 2>it and it was from there I tried to get

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<v Speaker 2>some legal support, but it was really expensive and we

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<v Speaker 2>really lost everything going there, so it was quite tough.

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<v Speaker 2>There were so many things going through our minds. Are

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<v Speaker 2>we going to be safe? Even in police custody?

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<v Speaker 3>Ben was right to be afraid. Later that day, a

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<v Speaker 3>car came to pick him and his wife up to

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<v Speaker 3>take them to the bigger provincial police station and hopefully

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<v Speaker 3>one step closer to home. But on their way there,

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<v Speaker 3>the police car broke down, or it seemed to. Ben

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<v Speaker 3>realized something was up and he started recording.

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<v Speaker 2>They faked a car breakdown. They took a car that

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't working and a car broke down halfway. No problem.

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<v Speaker 2>I found that that police station was already compromise and

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<v Speaker 2>I was just a few minutes away to being so

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<v Speaker 2>back to the company.

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<v Speaker 1>Now go to police?

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<v Speaker 2>But what cher? Go to police? Rows?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay? Ben was able to use his phone to call

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<v Speaker 3>for outside help to intervene and put pressure on the police.

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<v Speaker 3>From there, he and his wife Moira spent nearly three

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<v Speaker 3>months living in housing supported by an ango in Cambodia.

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<v Speaker 3>He was constantly questioned by the government and made, he says,

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<v Speaker 3>to feel like a criminal rather than a victim.

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<v Speaker 2>The line of questioning of the police, you know, wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>who were these people? How did they connect you? They

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<v Speaker 2>were basically asking like, okay, so when you were there,

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<v Speaker 2>did you do any transactions? Do you ask money from anyone?

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<v Speaker 2>There was no mention of the perpetrators and you know

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<v Speaker 2>how they look like and things like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So no interest in pursuing the people who trafficked

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<v Speaker 3>to you and kidnapped you and kept you in the

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<v Speaker 3>compound against your will.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct.

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<v Speaker 3>Ben and his wife made it out of Cambodia, but

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<v Speaker 3>the experience left him destitute, with no home to go

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<v Speaker 3>back to. Ben was it first living in a church,

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<v Speaker 3>and he lived in fear.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes I'm worried for my life.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We get threads sometimes.

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<v Speaker 3>What sort of threats do you get?

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<v Speaker 2>I get very funny calls on my phone. Sometimes I

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<v Speaker 2>have a feeling that someone from the compound is trying

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<v Speaker 2>to reach out to me. Maybe it's just my PTSD,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Yeah, but but yes, I'm afraid sometimes that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they will come after me. They have all

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<v Speaker 2>the financial resources to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's rare to hear from people. You don't often hear

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<v Speaker 3>from people like you who have been in these compounds.

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<v Speaker 3>Why do you think that is?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the first problem is it's really hard to

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<v Speaker 2>stand up for yourself as a victim over here because

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<v Speaker 2>there were so many stigma that goes around, you know, survivors,

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<v Speaker 2>even my own government and my own police. When I

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<v Speaker 2>got back, you know, they thought that I was a

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<v Speaker 2>scammer and I just needed help to get out. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's not many much support. That's why not

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<v Speaker 2>many people would actually be brief enough to come and

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's the testimonies of survivors that have forced governments

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<v Speaker 3>to act. In the last few weeks, seven thousand people

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<v Speaker 3>were rescued from scam factories in Myanmar by Thai authorities.

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<v Speaker 3>A week later, two hundred and fifteen more people were

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<v Speaker 3>freed by Thai and Cambodian police from a town along

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<v Speaker 3>their shared border. What would you want the people in

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<v Speaker 3>Australia who are getting these scam calls? What would you

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<v Speaker 3>want them to know and to understand about the reality

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<v Speaker 3>of what's actually going on? And the people who are

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<v Speaker 3>placing these calls.

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<v Speaker 2>For the Australian people, scam cams are real. The people

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<v Speaker 2>who are calling most likely they are victims as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were forced to do their jobs right. But

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<v Speaker 2>for the average Australian citizen, I would suggest to you,

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<v Speaker 2>if there was any call pretending to be a bank

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<v Speaker 2>or a post office, you know, basically anything that requires registration,

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<v Speaker 2>please go to the branch itself and chat before committing

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<v Speaker 2>financially to any of these scams. And don't fall for

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<v Speaker 2>anyone online unless you know them for years.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for sharing your story and I'm glad that

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<v Speaker 3>you managed to escape a good luck with everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you so much, very much.

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<v Speaker 3>For more of Ben's story plus others, have a Listen

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<v Speaker 3>to Scam Factories, a three part investigation from The Conversation

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<v Speaker 3>Weekly for The Conversation Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening seven am. We'll be

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<v Speaker 1>back tomorrow with an episode on Australia's boomy AI Data center.

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<v Speaker 1>Industry governments say it could help power a new wave

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<v Speaker 1>of productivity and investment, but as these projects demand more

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<v Speaker 1>and more electricity, the gas industry is starting to see

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<v Speaker 1>dollar signs. There is a project in New South Wales

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<v Speaker 1>called Cloud Carrier that has a seven hundred megawatt gas

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<v Speaker 1>fired power station project attached to it. Just the emissions

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<v Speaker 1>from that project alone would wipe out all of the

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<v Speaker 1>projected emissions reductions in New South Wales in twenty twenty eight.

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<v Speaker 1>To give you a sense of the scale of the

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<v Speaker 1>climate impact of this facility, These

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<v Speaker 3>Are massive new fossil fueled power stations see tomorrow a

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<v Speaker 3>blow