1 00:00:03,090 --> 00:00:05,639 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,990 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. One in six human resources professionals say they wouldn't 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,490 Sean Aylmer: consider hiring people aged 65 and above. That's a pretty 4 00:00:14,490 --> 00:00:19,260 Sean Aylmer: confronting statistic. Research conducted by the Australian HR Institute in 5 00:00:19,260 --> 00:00:22,770 Sean Aylmer: partnership with the Australian Human Rights Commission shows an alarming 6 00:00:22,829 --> 00:00:26,489 Sean Aylmer: level of age discrimination, which is even harder to understand 7 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:30,420 Sean Aylmer: considering the high level of job vacancies. Dr. Kay Patterson 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,169 Sean Aylmer: AO is the age discrimination Commissioner for the Australian Human 9 00:00:34,170 --> 00:00:37,050 Sean Aylmer: Rights Commission. Dr. Patterson, welcome to Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:38,460 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Thank you very much. 11 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:41,190 Sean Aylmer: Did it surprise you one in six HR professionals saying 12 00:00:41,190 --> 00:00:43,919 Sean Aylmer: they wouldn't consider hiring people over 65? 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,629 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: No, it doesn't surprise me. Ageism is rife in Australia, 14 00:00:48,870 --> 00:00:52,020 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: both ways; young people aren't experienced enough and older people 15 00:00:52,020 --> 00:00:54,840 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: are too qualified, et cetera, et cetera. So it does 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,500 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: go both ways, in other areas other than just employment, 17 00:00:58,500 --> 00:01:02,910 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: as well. But that doesn't surprise me because my predecessor, 18 00:01:03,030 --> 00:01:05,700 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: the late Susan Ryan, former colleague of mine in the 19 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:10,410 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Senate, undertook a study called Willing to Work and showed 20 00:01:10,410 --> 00:01:12,780 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that a significant number of older people were willing to 21 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:16,140 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: work, happy to work, and yet they were facing discrimination, 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:21,450 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that was back in 2016. In 2014, she undertook a 23 00:01:21,450 --> 00:01:24,270 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: similar piece of research, the research we are talking about 24 00:01:24,270 --> 00:01:28,740 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: today and with the Australian Human Resources Institute, where they found that 25 00:01:28,860 --> 00:01:32,339 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: 52% of companies had an age above which they would 26 00:01:32,459 --> 00:01:35,280 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: prefer not to employ or didn't employ, and that was 27 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:39,780 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: early sixties, that was 52%. Now the good news is 28 00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:44,430 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that we've done a study in 2014, '16, '18, '21, and this 29 00:01:44,430 --> 00:01:47,460 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: is the fifth one in '23, and the good news 30 00:01:47,460 --> 00:01:50,370 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: is, it's gone down from 52% who had an age 31 00:01:50,370 --> 00:01:53,790 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: above which they wouldn't employ people to 18%. That's still 32 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:56,640 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: one in five companies who are not prepared to employ 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,010 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: people over 65. Look, the pension doesn't start until you're 34 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,340 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: 67. I mean really and truly, I think we need 35 00:02:02,340 --> 00:02:05,790 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to break up the myths about older people, understand the 36 00:02:05,790 --> 00:02:09,030 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: importance of what I call a 5G workplace, and it's 37 00:02:09,030 --> 00:02:13,200 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: not 5G telecommunications, it's five generations and look at the 38 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,329 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: benefits of having a 5G place. 39 00:02:15,870 --> 00:02:18,060 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so can I just ask firstly why, I mean, 40 00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:20,190 Sean Aylmer: it's good news at least that, I mean one in 41 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:22,440 Sean Aylmer: five is a horrendous statistic, but it's better than one 42 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:22,919 Sean Aylmer: in two. 43 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:23,580 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: That's right. 44 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:25,889 Sean Aylmer: Which was where we were, what, you're saying nine years 45 00:02:25,889 --> 00:02:29,430 Sean Aylmer: ago, so that's something. Why is it that older people 46 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:31,980 Sean Aylmer: don't get employed? Why do people not want to employ them? 47 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,090 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Well, ageism is rife. " Oh, well, they can't do this. 48 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:38,910 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: They'll be sick. They won't stay in the job very 49 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:43,980 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: long. They don't know how to use IT." All of 50 00:02:43,980 --> 00:02:47,190 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: those are myths. Especially people who've been in the workforce, 51 00:02:47,190 --> 00:02:49,620 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: many of them can use IT if they need it 52 00:02:49,620 --> 00:02:52,650 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a job or can learn. We're reasonably quick learners. I'm 53 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:55,770 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: still working full- time and I'm 78 years of age. I 54 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:59,280 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: mean, really and honestly, I think businesses who see the 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,149 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: benefits of what an older person can bring, different skills 56 00:03:03,150 --> 00:03:06,209 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: often from a younger person, but they can blend those together, 57 00:03:06,870 --> 00:03:10,590 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: experience and youth and enthusiasm and have a much more 58 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:14,550 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: productive workplace. There's research from overseas that shows that multi- 59 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:16,800 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: generational workplaces are highly productive. 60 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:19,530 Sean Aylmer: What us an older worker? Now me, in my mid- fifties, 61 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:22,169 Sean Aylmer: I'm suddenly interested in this topic, whereas 10 years ago 62 00:03:22,169 --> 00:03:26,280 Sean Aylmer: I probably wasn't. I mean, what age does older worker 63 00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:27,120 Sean Aylmer: kick in at? 64 00:03:27,630 --> 00:03:32,130 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: When we undertook the 2021 piece of research during COVID, the 65 00:03:32,130 --> 00:03:34,620 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: age at which they decided they weren't going to employ 66 00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:36,390 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: or I didn't want to employ people, it had dropped to 67 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:39,780 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: about 52. And I thought, " Oh, heavens, why is this? 68 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:46,650 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Is it because people have got a view that older people won't cope because of moving online to work?" That's come 69 00:03:46,650 --> 00:03:48,660 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: back up again. It may have been COVID, I'm not 70 00:03:48,660 --> 00:03:52,140 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: sure. But some people say that people are too old at 42, 71 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,450 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: 45. So it depends on the person who's employing. One 72 00:03:57,450 --> 00:03:58,830 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: of the things I think is difficult is, a lot 73 00:03:58,830 --> 00:04:02,430 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: of the recruiters are young and anybody who's five years 74 00:04:02,430 --> 00:04:05,520 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: older than you is old. I mean, it's hard to 75 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,290 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: put yourself in other people's shoes when you're a young 76 00:04:07,290 --> 00:04:09,630 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: person. It's not being critical of them, it's just they 77 00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:13,710 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: don't have the life experience and here's somebody presenting and they think, " 78 00:04:13,710 --> 00:04:15,510 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Well, will they be able to take instruction from a 79 00:04:15,510 --> 00:04:19,680 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: younger person?" In my team here, my most senior person 80 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,370 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: is younger than a whole team, and I think it 81 00:04:23,370 --> 00:04:27,240 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: shows that older people can be led by younger person. 82 00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:30,510 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: And so it's really important that we're not ageist about 83 00:04:30,510 --> 00:04:34,020 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: young people and we are aren't ageist about older people., but often who's 84 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:35,760 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: old is from your own perspective. 85 00:04:36,089 --> 00:04:40,020 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. So let's say the older people are someone older 86 00:04:40,020 --> 00:04:41,640 Sean Aylmer: than me is how I like to think of it. 87 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,690 Sean Aylmer: But let's put that sort of that 60 upwards age bracket. What are 88 00:04:45,690 --> 00:04:48,660 Sean Aylmer: the benefits of employing older people? 89 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:52,169 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Well, many employers report they saw no difference between older 90 00:04:52,170 --> 00:04:54,600 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: and younger workers in terms of... This is in the 91 00:04:54,690 --> 00:04:58,109 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: recent study in '23, they didn't see differences between older 92 00:04:58,110 --> 00:05:02,580 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: workers in terms of job performance, concentration, ability to adapt 93 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:05,429 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to change, energy levels, and creativity. That's the majority of 94 00:05:05,430 --> 00:05:08,790 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: them, over 52%, over 50%. The advantages of older workers they 95 00:05:08,790 --> 00:05:13,080 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: saw was coping with stress, their attendance, their reliability, their 96 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,979 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: awareness, their commitment, their loyalty. And younger people were seen 97 00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:21,960 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: as physically capable, ambitious, proficient in using technology. So they 98 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,260 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: see many things they don't differ on and some things 99 00:05:25,260 --> 00:05:28,529 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: they differ on, and they bring those different skills to 100 00:05:28,529 --> 00:05:31,650 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a diverse workforce and they can support each other and 101 00:05:31,650 --> 00:05:32,910 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: better reflect our community. 102 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,880 Sean Aylmer: I mean, diversity is a great word because we often 103 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,630 Sean Aylmer: think about diversity in terms of gender, but there's a 104 00:05:39,630 --> 00:05:42,240 Sean Aylmer: lot more to it, race being an example- 105 00:05:42,300 --> 00:05:42,301 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Disability, 106 00:05:42,301 --> 00:05:46,140 Sean Aylmer: ... cultural backgrounds, disability, but age, as well. 107 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,750 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Yes. And I think people have got to understand that 108 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:53,250 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: older people sometimes bring... For example, dealing with customers. Now 109 00:05:53,250 --> 00:05:56,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: I know there's a major shoe retailer here in Australia 110 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,510 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: who actually came and talked to a committee I was chairing, 111 00:06:00,630 --> 00:06:03,900 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a collaboration on older workers of people like the Australian 112 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:08,820 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: hotel industry and Australian Council on the Aged, people from ACCI (Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry), 113 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,390 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: people from business and people from the not- for- profit sector, 114 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,460 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to look at how we could increase the employment of 115 00:06:14,460 --> 00:06:17,430 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: older people, and that we had someone come and talk 116 00:06:17,430 --> 00:06:20,940 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to us who was absolutely thrilled to employ older people 117 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,640 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: because they understood that people have bunions and that they 118 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,839 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: needed comfortable shoes and they were patient when people... And 119 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:29,520 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: I've been, and you must probably not been in women's 120 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,979 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: shoes shop, but you could have been. But sometimes you 121 00:06:31,980 --> 00:06:33,990 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: have them there and they've got 15 pairs of shoes or 122 00:06:33,990 --> 00:06:36,120 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: 20 pairs of shoes around them. You need people who 123 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,729 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: can be patient, who get why people need to try... 124 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,250 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: You're going to be spending $ 400 on a pair of shoes, you want 125 00:06:41,250 --> 00:06:43,260 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to try them on and feel that they're going to be comfortable 126 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:45,570 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: and last a long time. So there are advantage of 127 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:48,779 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: older workers. Bunnings, for example, is another company that has 128 00:06:48,779 --> 00:06:52,080 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: older workers, former tradies who can help people you. I 129 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,479 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: often rely on them to say what sort of paint 130 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:55,500 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: should I use or whatever. 131 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:56,160 Sean Aylmer: Absolutely, yeah. 132 00:06:56,220 --> 00:06:58,770 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: So if you look at the way in which they 133 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:02,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: can contribute, there was a company down in Wollongong, a 134 00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:05,310 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: group I met very early on in this job and 135 00:07:05,310 --> 00:07:10,260 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: they needed two people to be in their car showroom 136 00:07:10,590 --> 00:07:12,540 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to move cars around, to take them back when they'd 137 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:15,270 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: been serviced. And they found if they had two people 138 00:07:15,450 --> 00:07:19,350 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: it was hopeless because especially if they were young and the surf was up, they've got to go 139 00:07:19,350 --> 00:07:22,650 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: surfing and they said they got eight older men said, " 140 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:24,990 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: I want one of you to be a leader. All 141 00:07:25,350 --> 00:07:28,800 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: we want is two people here every day." And so 142 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: they mixed and matched when they wanted to have holidays, 143 00:07:31,620 --> 00:07:34,650 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: which days they wanted to do. Oh, and they had 144 00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:37,680 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a reserve person, they always had two people. And I 145 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,480 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: have to say, they also said they didn't have as 146 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,160 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: many people being booked for testing the new Mercedes- Benz 147 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,970 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: up the road. We also had another group that ran 148 00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:49,680 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a very small... This was down in Wollongong when I 149 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,070 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: was looking at employing older workers as an issue and 150 00:07:53,070 --> 00:07:55,740 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: wanted to see what was happening on the ground. One company, 151 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,520 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: it was a small, private health company and they found 152 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,240 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that some of their older workers were accumulating knowledge about 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,150 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: their clients that they could use. " It's much better to 154 00:08:06,150 --> 00:08:08,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: keep Mrs. Smith in hospital for two days. She tends 155 00:08:08,670 --> 00:08:11,550 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: not to come back. She just needs to be a 156 00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:15,270 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: bit more sure. But Mr. Smith, he goes out and 157 00:08:15,270 --> 00:08:17,730 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: he is fine." But they don't write it down anywhere. 158 00:08:17,850 --> 00:08:19,679 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: One of the pieces of work that we did, this 159 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,340 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: piece of work we did over this five iterations from 160 00:08:23,340 --> 00:08:28,440 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: 2014 to '23, talks about gathering information from older workers as they 161 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,660 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: leave. And a lot of companies don't do that and 162 00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:34,110 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: they go away with all this fantastic information in their 163 00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:36,929 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: head that they've never written down as to what's made 164 00:08:36,929 --> 00:08:41,490 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: them very successful employees. So it's important for businesses, too, 165 00:08:41,790 --> 00:08:44,940 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to harness that information or to keep them on part- time 166 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,590 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to transition the newcomers that can benefit from that experience 167 00:08:49,590 --> 00:08:54,390 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that's if somebody working for 25 years in a place goes away with 168 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:59,069 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: the very key knowledge that they need to keep their clients. 169 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,500 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Dr. Patterson. We'll be back in a 170 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:10,530 Sean Aylmer: minute. My guest this morning is Age Discrimination Commissioner Dr. 171 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:14,070 Sean Aylmer: Kay Patterson AO. What about the actual candidates themselves, the 172 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:18,390 Sean Aylmer: older individuals themselves? I've got to say my instance when 173 00:09:18,390 --> 00:09:21,120 Sean Aylmer: I got to my early fifties and I had left 174 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,550 Sean Aylmer: my place of work, which was a large corporate, I 175 00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:25,679 Sean Aylmer: kind of thought to myself, " I need to create jobs 176 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,679 Sean Aylmer: for myself here because I'm worried about I need to 177 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,540 Sean Aylmer: work for another 15 or 20 years and I need 178 00:09:30,540 --> 00:09:34,980 Sean Aylmer: to create businesses myself to keep me in employment." Now 179 00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:37,050 Sean Aylmer: that was probably like a reticence on my side to 180 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:39,990 Sean Aylmer: jump back into the corporate world. Is that typical? 181 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:43,860 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Well, different people have different reactions. The piece of work 182 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:47,130 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: that we did call Willing to Work, a predecessor did, 183 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:50,370 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: showed that if men were knocked back in applying for 184 00:09:50,370 --> 00:09:54,000 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: jobs, they tend to have another go. Women, they're slightly 185 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,359 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to have another go, so they're more affected. One of 186 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: the problems we've got is we have a complaint system 187 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:02,429 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: here. People can make a complaint to the Commission and say, " 188 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,930 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: I was discriminated against on the basis of my age." Unless they say, " 189 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:10,320 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Well, when I saw your age, I realized it weren't 190 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,920 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: going to fit into our place," or they write back 191 00:10:14,429 --> 00:10:17,729 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: and it's there in black and white, it's very much she 192 00:10:17,730 --> 00:10:20,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: said, he said that they'll come and say, " Oh, we 193 00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:23,489 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: don't deal with the complaints." A whole different section of 194 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:26,819 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: the Commission deals with the complaints and we get a summary. But one 195 00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:29,550 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: of the problems is that they say, " Oh, he said 196 00:10:29,550 --> 00:10:30,900 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: this," or, " As soon as I walked in and saw 197 00:10:30,929 --> 00:10:33,449 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: my gray hair, he wasn't interested in even asking proper 198 00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:37,080 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: questions." It's very difficult to establish. But if we see 199 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:41,340 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a number of complaints from the same business coming in, 200 00:10:42,030 --> 00:10:45,210 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: they might call a business in for a conciliation, with 201 00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:47,610 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: pick a person, just makes them aware that they're actually 202 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:49,920 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: breaking the law to discriminate on the basis of age. 203 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,699 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Because Age Discrimination Act says you can't discriminate on the 204 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,340 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: basis of age. Unless it's been established that you need 205 00:10:56,340 --> 00:10:59,820 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to be able to lift 15 kilograms to do this 206 00:10:59,820 --> 00:11:02,970 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: job and you can demonstrate, or you need to not 207 00:11:02,970 --> 00:11:04,589 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: be at risk of a heart attack if you're a 208 00:11:04,590 --> 00:11:09,000 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: pilot. So there are exemptions to that, but normally it's 209 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,130 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: breaking the law, but it's very hard to prove. But 210 00:11:11,130 --> 00:11:14,130 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: sometimes, just bringing someone in for a conciliation makes them 211 00:11:14,130 --> 00:11:17,100 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: aware that their process has been ageist. 212 00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:20,850 Sean Aylmer: Kay Patterson, Age Discrimination Commissioner at the Australian Human Rights 213 00:11:20,850 --> 00:11:23,429 Sean Aylmer: Commission. One more question. We're running out of time. How 214 00:11:23,429 --> 00:11:25,710 Sean Aylmer: do we change all this? It's probably the biggest question 215 00:11:25,740 --> 00:11:27,510 Sean Aylmer: of the life. How do we change it all? How do 216 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:28,110 Sean Aylmer: we make it better? 217 00:11:28,650 --> 00:11:32,610 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: I think I'd like to say that my predecessor, she 218 00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:35,220 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: was the first Age Discrimination Commissioner, I'm the second, and 219 00:11:35,220 --> 00:11:38,520 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: my term finishes in a couple of months, we've been 220 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,200 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: working very hard to highlight best practice, to call out 221 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,340 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: bad practice, to do this research to show that people 222 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:50,670 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: are still ages. But look, there has been improvement. We 223 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:53,370 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: know from the research that the employers who are not willing 224 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:55,470 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: to employ an older person's gone from one in two 225 00:11:56,010 --> 00:11:57,750 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: down to one in five, but it's still not good 226 00:11:57,750 --> 00:12:01,140 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: enough. People shouldn't be discriminated on the basis of their 227 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:03,900 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: age. You know what I say to people whenever I 228 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:08,220 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: talk on this issue? It's the employers who don't have 229 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:11,400 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a multi- generational workforce who lose out. There are so 230 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,790 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: many benefits of the skills younger people bring, the skills middle- 231 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:17,309 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: aged people bring, and the skills and knowledge older people 232 00:12:17,309 --> 00:12:22,890 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: bring that make your workplace better, functions better. I was 233 00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:26,580 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: talking to a plumber, a business who makes plumbing plastic 234 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:30,120 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: pipes in Western Australia. They brought in an old retired 235 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,420 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: plumber and he said, " If we deal with this in 236 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:35,460 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: a different way, we won't have so much breakages." So 237 00:12:35,460 --> 00:12:38,820 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: he brought experience of his working with these pipes to 238 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:41,970 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: their production. He also realized and said to me they 239 00:12:41,970 --> 00:12:44,369 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: sit around the work table and they're complaining about a 240 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:47,790 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: wife and the older person will say, " Look, you've just 241 00:12:47,790 --> 00:12:49,890 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: got to get through these bumps. If you get another 242 00:12:49,890 --> 00:12:51,570 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: one, it'll be just as bad in 10 years time." 243 00:12:51,929 --> 00:12:53,849 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: And he said they give them those sorts of advice. 244 00:12:53,850 --> 00:12:56,250 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: So there's all sorts of stuff that happens on the 245 00:12:56,250 --> 00:13:00,841 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: factory floor, in the workplace, and in the kitchen, in the lunchroom. 246 00:13:00,841 --> 00:13:02,340 Sean Aylmer: The meal room. That's fantastic. 247 00:13:02,850 --> 00:13:06,870 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Any anybody who gets the message that 5G workplaces are 248 00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:10,230 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: more productive, then they'll be the winners; a win- win 249 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:10,740 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: for everyone. 250 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:13,170 Sean Aylmer: Kay Patterson, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 251 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:14,130 Dr. Kay Patterson AO: Thank you very much. 252 00:13:14,490 --> 00:13:17,610 Sean Aylmer: That was Dr. Kay Patterson, Age Discrimination Commissioner at the 253 00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:20,610 Sean Aylmer: Australian Human Rights Commission. This is the Fear and Greed 254 00:13:20,610 --> 00:13:23,130 Sean Aylmer: daily interview. Join us every morning for the full episode 255 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:26,460 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm 256 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:27,900 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.