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Speaker 1: Yeah. Former Head of Army Chief of Army is there called.

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Speaker 1: Peter Lee has written in The Australian Today in an

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Speaker 1: editorial piece where he says the army is now a

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Speaker 1: liability to the US. Australia has become a liability to

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Speaker 1: the US because our military strength is stretched too thin,

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Speaker 1: he says in the article, and we're unable to fight

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Speaker 1: at short notice should that be required. We're putting a

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Speaker 1: lot into future capability like submarines over immediate needs. So

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Speaker 1: where would we be placed is the obvious question. Should

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Speaker 1: an army or a defense force even be required in

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Speaker 1: the next say month, are we ready? And according to

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Speaker 1: Peter Lee, the the answer appears to be no. Michael Schubrich,

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Speaker 1: Director of Strategic Analysis Australia, on the line, Michael, good morning,

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Speaker 1: Hey Ma's how are you good? Thank you? But a

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Speaker 1: little concern his article this morning.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, but I think he's right. The defense debate

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Speaker 2: in Australia really has got fixated on things like the

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Speaker 2: Orcus nuclear submarines and they're such a distant prospect now

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Speaker 2: it's twenty fifty four by the time the eighth submarine

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Speaker 2: turns up. But the way the government and defense officials talk,

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Speaker 2: it's like that's the entire answer to our security. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: the Army and the Air Force are being chronically underinvested in.

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Speaker 1: The answer would be money, I suppose. But you need

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Speaker 1: a government to make the decision. And surely they've been

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Speaker 1: hearing this, not just the Albanese government, the Morrison government

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Speaker 1: before then, the Turnbull and Habit government. I mean this

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Speaker 1: has been We've known about the need to replace, for instance, subs,

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Speaker 1: not just last year or the year before. We've known

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Speaker 1: this for the best part of ten twenty years now.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but we are pretending time doesn't matter. And the

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Speaker 2: way we're talking is as if these eight submarines are

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Speaker 2: already here and they're thirty over thirty years away. So

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Speaker 2: what happens between now and then really matters. And you're right,

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Speaker 2: we've got to spend some money, not just on these

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Speaker 2: hugely expensive submarines and frigates, which is where all the

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Speaker 2: money's going.

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Speaker 1: Should we be investing in new technology like drones for instance,

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Speaker 1: today getting them, using them? Are we buying any.

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Speaker 2: We're buying a tiny little number. We have the Defense

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Speaker 2: Department as this strange tendency to buy offshore products when

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Speaker 2: Australian companies are making these systems and selling them to

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Speaker 2: other militaries. Our defense department seems to almost refuse to

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Speaker 2: buy Australian products.

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Speaker 1: We've got whole industry here in South Australia. We've built

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Speaker 1: armored vehicles, we've built all sorts of things for army,

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Speaker 1: for air Force, for Navy here and other places as

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Speaker 1: well around the country. How is this message not getting

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Speaker 1: through beyond bureaucrats? Is it defense people talking to the department,

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Speaker 1: the department dragging his feet? What's going on with the

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Speaker 1: whole setup of how decisions are made.

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Speaker 2: Well, a lot of companies feel really reluctant to say

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Speaker 2: anything at all critical of defense officials because defense officials

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Speaker 2: have the checkbook, so they're silenced. And then ministers seem

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Speaker 2: just to be accepting the briefs from their department that

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Speaker 2: everything is fine. It's like the Lego movie everything is awesome.

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Speaker 2: So really you need more questioning ministers, not ones that

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Speaker 2: are cheerleaders for the department. And I think reality just

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Speaker 2: needs to impinge in the closed world. Do the defense organization,

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Speaker 2: because even the Americans are saying their companies can't supply

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Speaker 2: the American military with what they need, and yet we

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Speaker 2: seem to insist on putting an all in bed that

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Speaker 2: the Americans will supply our military. Australian companies have a

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Speaker 2: much bigger role supplying our military than current purchasing would

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Speaker 2: tell you.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe the strategy is sprinkling lego blocks around the

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Speaker 1: coastline and hoping invaders will step on them and hurt

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Speaker 1: the bottom of their feet, because that's enough to incapacitate anyone.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the right answer is to look at

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Speaker 2: what Australian companies are doing with things like drone technology

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Speaker 2: to support big resource companies, our big agri businesses, and

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Speaker 2: turn those capabilities, those industrial capabilities to defense.

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Speaker 1: Uses in the meantime. One of Peter Lee's points is

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Speaker 1: we've become a strategic liability for the US therein we

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Speaker 1: talk the talk, but we can't walk the walk. They

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Speaker 1: will need to come to defenders, and they probably will

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Speaker 1: no matter how well structured we are, because we just

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Speaker 1: can't even man, for instance, our current subs. We don't

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Speaker 1: have enough people in the army and probably the Air

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Speaker 1: Force too. I imagine, well.

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Speaker 2: If we're not equipping our people with modern lethal systems

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Speaker 2: like drones and missiles for example, we shouldn't be surprised

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Speaker 2: when young Australians don't want to join the military. They're

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Speaker 2: meant to be confident that they will have the best

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Speaker 2: equipment on the planet, and talking about them serving on

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Speaker 2: nuclear submarines that are a distant prospect strangely doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to excite them. So I think these answers are all

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Speaker 2: joined up and taking advantage of what Australian companies can

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Speaker 2: actually do to equip our military. We'll help with the

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Speaker 2: recruiting problem and it will also make us have a

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Speaker 2: military force that can be deployed and without being sort

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Speaker 2: of begging for American supplies.

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Speaker 1: Now you're talking combat readiness, and they can do all

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Speaker 1: the training drills they like, but it's having the backup.

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Speaker 2: As you say, yeah, well, if I mean, there was

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Speaker 2: a recent American report put out saying that the Americans

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Speaker 2: will run out of munitions and missiles within weeks of

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Speaker 2: a major war. So if we're thinking they're going to

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Speaker 2: supply us, we need to think.

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Speaker 1: Again, Yeah, absolutely, that's scary. All right. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: China says, yeah, build the subs, take your time.

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Speaker 2: That's right, focus on something that's in twenty fifty, if

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Speaker 2: you really want to do that. Meanwhile, the security of

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Speaker 2: our region is left unattended. I think we've got to

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Speaker 2: get over this fixation about orcust submarineses the adds to

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Speaker 2: all our needs. Even when they turn up, they are

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Speaker 2: only one weapon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly it, all right, Michael, appreciate your time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Michael Shubridge, who is Director of Strategic Analysis

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Speaker 1: Australia