WEBVTT - Is this why we still haven’t seen gambling reform? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:09.319 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. Next 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.440 week Parliament returns and the government has a lot that 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.920 wants to achieve, but there's a piece of unfinished business 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:20.200 we're waiting for movement on, and that's gambling reform. Back 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.400 in twenty twenty two, at the start of Albanese's first term, 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.400 his government commissioned a review into the harms of gambling 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.120 and when it reported back, it was unequivocal about what 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:34.120 needed to happen to stop the damage. Now, as we 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.560 enter the second year of Albanese's second term, many of 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.080 those recommendations still haven't been acted on, despite there being 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.479 popular support across the community to do something about the 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:47.720 harms of gambling. So today I'm bringing you an episode 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.880 we publish back in twenty twenty four which lays out 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.000 the evidence and makes connections about the personal relationships that 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:58.600 may be shaping Anthony Albanese's position. One of those relationships 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.560 is with Peter Valandi's the chair of the Australian Rugby 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.200 League Commission, chief executive of New South Wales Racing and 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:09.800 the fierce opponent to reform. Today special correspondent for the 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.200 Saturday Paper Jason kotsukis with the inside story of why 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:21.400 the government hasn't acted on gambling ads. It's Sunday, February one. 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.760 This episode was originally published in December twenty twenty four 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:27.919 and was hosted by Ruby Jones. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.880 So, Jason the Prime Minister. He is famously a big 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.200 rugby league guy. His team is the rabbit Os. But 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.400 not only that, he has friends in the league. He's 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:44.920 known to be close to the chair of the Australian 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.320 Rugby League Commission in particular. Can you tell me a 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.720 bit about him and about their relationship. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.840 Well, that's exactly right. So Peter landis a huge figure 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:57.720 in Sydney, someone the Prime Minister has known for a 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.559 very long time. A measure of how curse they've become 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.960 is that when Joe Biden hosted a state dinner at 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.640 the White House for Anthony Oberenzi in October last year, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:13.240 one of the people that the Prime Minister took along 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.000 with him was Peter Flanders. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:18.160 Peter blandis, you're here for the state dinner? 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:19.080 How did this come about? 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.119 I look, we had lunch one day with the Prime 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.760 Minister and we were talking about Australian sport and how 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:24.240 it could be. 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.000 Much the same way that his predecessor, Scott Morrison took 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:29.160 brain Houston. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.160 To have a PM who's into rugby league. Is that 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.000 a welcome thing for you? Look, it is also welcome. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:35.760 But he's also very smart, he can see. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:39.720 And then in May this year, Anthony Oberenezi backed the 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:45.200 NRLs push to add another team to the NRL competition 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.000 based in New Guinea. The Prime Minister views this as 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.680 a way of strengthening ties with not just p ANDNG, 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:56.840 but Australia's whole integration with the Pacific region, where Beijing 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:01.079 is also competing for influence. They also collaborate on a 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:05.560 funding agreement to upgrade the historic like Art Oval which 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.959 is in the Prime Minister's Graindler electorate, with the federal 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.160 government kicking and nearly half of the fifty million dollars 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:14.080 required to upgrade that oval. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.360 Okay, So there's a close working relationship and also a 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.240 close personal one. It's fair to say that Albert Easy 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:26.440 and Flant is their buddies. How significant is that when 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.160 it comes to the way that the Prime Minister has 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.120 approached the issue of gambling reform. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.600 I think it's very significant. I spoke to one Labor 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.840 insider who said that no voice has been more important 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.520 when it comes to informing the PM on the consequences 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:47.040 of a complete gambling advertising ban than Velandis. That same 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.120 person put the AFL Chief Executive Andrew Dillon a close second, 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.720 and that no one else, not even the Freeware Networks 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:59.280 or Kerry Stokes or even News Corporation, has mattered as 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.000 much in this is what the two sporting codes think. 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.680 Yeah, as you say, we have heard a lot about 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.800 gambling reform this year. Can you give me a sense 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.480 of why that is, of why this issue has come 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.040 to a head at this particular moment. 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.680 Well, right back at the beginning of the term, I 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.600 think in September twenty twenty two, the Minister for Social Services, 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:25.680 Amanda Rishworth, she actually referred this issue to a parliamentary 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.640 inquiry and she asked them to have a look at 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:33.760 online gambling and its impacts on people experiencing gambling AHM. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.080 That committee was chaired by a Labor MP, the late 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.960 Peter Murphy, and was made up of ten other MPs 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:46.840 drawn from both the two major parties and also the 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:50.719 cross bench. And while they were working on that report, 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.719 I think in May last year, Peter Dutton kind of 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.840 got the jump on the committee and preempted one of 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:02.040 their key recommendations. He used his budget in reply speech 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.880 to announce that a coalition government would move to banned 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.039 sports betting advertising during the broadcasting of games and for 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.640 an hour before and after the game as well. 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.320 In our country, footy time is family time, but the 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:17.839 bombardment of betting. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.839 Ads takes the joy out of televised sports. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:24.719 Ten days later, in Parliament, the Opposition Communication spokesman David 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.640 Coleman asked the Prime Minister. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.200 Will the Prime Minister work with the Opposition to get 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:31.680 this initiative implemented? 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.920 Now give a call to the Prime Minister. 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.640 I thanked the member for his question. 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:40.000 No one likes their footing more than Mate Alban. He's 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.960 responded by saying that he was very concerned about gamely ads. 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.560 He said he found them annoying. But he questioned why 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.200 the Coalition was trying to move on this at that moment. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.320 If only they were in government sometime in the last decade, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:59.000 if only they'd had the opportunity to do something. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.000 Also that he was going to be waiting for Peter 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.000 Murphy's inquiry to deliver its final report because you know 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.400 that is what's appropriate, he said at the time. 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.840 Okay, So when the inquiry did report back, what did 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:15.360 they find? 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.640 You know, six weeks after Dunton came out with that 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.279 promise to ban sports betting ads during games, Peter Murphy's 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:26.480 committee tabled its report You win some, you lose more. 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:32.000 The committee unanimously agreed on the thirty one recommendations that 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.400 that report contained. But the one recommendation that's caused all 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.560 the headaches for the government is the one that has 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.280 called for a comprehensive ban on all forms of advertising 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.200 for online gambling, to be implemented over three years. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.720 So will the government listen to the evidence? That's after 0:06:54.760 --> 0:07:07.960 the break so Jason, The government said they wanted to 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.679 wait until they got this report, final report before dealing 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:17.040 with the issue of gambling reform. So once they had 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.520 that in their hands, what did they do next? 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.360 Well, last December, as the Communications Minister Michelle Roland was 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.560 working through the government's response to the inquiry, Peter Murphy 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:34.320 died from cancer. And I think that added a lot 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.720 of extra emotional charge to this issue because it was 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.000 almost Peter Murfy's dying wish that the government act on 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:47.080 that key recommendation to ban gambling advertising. So when Parliament 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.480 returned in February this year, five days ironically before the 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:56.320 Dunkley by election to fill the parliamentary vacancy created by 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:01.560 Peter Murphy's death, Zoe Daniel, the Teal Independent, asked the 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.480 Prime Minister whether he would in fact honor Murphy's call 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.800 for a full ban on gambling ads. What did he say, Well, 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:10.920 he tried it out a form of words that he's 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.360 kind of repeated each time he's been asked about this now, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:17.800 and that essentially has been that the Government is undertaking 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.320 relevant consultations as you would expect us to do, he 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:26.200 told Parliament then with all stakeholders. But by the middle 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.080 of the year, the same day that Albanezi met with 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.080 the NRL's chief executive Andrew Abdo, the government was in 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.640 fact ready with a compromise proposal that it was prepared 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:42.280 to share with all irrelevant stakeholders under strict confidentiality arrangements, 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:47.400 and instead of a blanket ban on gambling advertising, Michelle 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.880 Rowland had come up with a proposal to introduce a 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.600 cap of two gambling ads per hour on each channel 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.840 up until ten pm with a complete ban on gambling. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.199 It's an hour before and after live. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.960 Sport, right, So that's something, but it's not what the 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.160 inquiry actually recommended. 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:13.680 No, it's a compromise. But when news of Michelle Roland's 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.480 proposal leaked, the Prime Minister refused to back it, and 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.200 he told journalists at that press conference, you know they 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.679 shouldn't believe everything they read in the paper. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.320 Well, we'll announce what our preferred solution is when we 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.920 announce it, so i'd comment on speculation. Thanks very much, 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:32.760 Thank you. 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.640 One Labor adviser I spoke with told me that he 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.320 didn't think Michelle Roland was very happy with the way 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.800 the Prime Minister responded to those questions. I think she 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.920 was hoping that he would say something a bit more supportive, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.079 that he would even be prepared to back the proposal, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.600 and their reading of it was you know that the 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:58.040 Minister had gone out to stakeholders with a compromise that 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.000 everyone was broadly comfortable with, and that Labor missed an 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.280 opportunity to pass what would have been a significant reform 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.280 that was in the public interest and that probably would 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.520 have got a majority of voters on site. 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.440 It is an interesting situation though, because you have a 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.160 committee that's looked at the evidence and said that what's 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.720 needed is a ban for ads on online gambling. The 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.040 government has opted not to do that, but instead there's 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.440 this compromise that's been proposed, but then when the Prime 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.840 Minister is asked about that, he won't commit to it. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.280 So what's going on here and why is this becoming 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:34.319 such a sticking point? 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.480 Great question? And I think you know, one gambling industry 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.680 executive that I spoke to said that, in his view, 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:44.200 they didn't really think that the government understood just how 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.280 complex this issue was when they referred it to the inquiry, 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:51.800 and they said they didn't think that the government really 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:56.800 listened either to the industry representatives who appeared before that inquiry, 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.680 including the sporting codes, the TV networks, in the gambling 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:05.120 industry itself, who all told the MPs just how difficult 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.960 it would be to implement a ban. And I think 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.720 the key thing here is how to replace or what 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.000 is considered this vital source of revenue that's keeping television 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:14.679 networks alike. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.800 Right, So where has all of this left the government? Jason? 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.200 I mean, once the Prime Minister refused to back his 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:28.280 own Communication Minister's proposal. Did the possibility of reform die? 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.959 Well, it certainly looks that way right now. I think 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.320 it's left everyone feeling very frustrated. Each week that Parlam 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.840 has sat since August, the Prime Minister has faced questions 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.400 on this issue from not just the crossbench but the 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.880 opposition as well. We saw Tasmanian Independent Andrew Wilkie come 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.520 out on Thursday to call a government a disgrace. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:54.839 I have not seen a more egregious and shocking abandonment 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.920 of the public interest then this government's refusal to implement 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.880 a ban on gambling advertising. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.320 I think all of this has left members of the 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.520 government feeling angry too. One senior labor source told me 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.800 that the whole thing has been very frustrating that they're 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:17.920 still trying to deal with the unintended consequences for the networks. 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.000 And I think you know, the PM has tried to 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.880 defend the government's record saying. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.800 We've done more in two years to tackle gambling arms 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.559 than has been done by any government since Federation. 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.839 And if you look at the list that the PM 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.720 recites often in question time, things like establishing a mandatory 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:44.200 customer ID verification for online gambling, forcing online gambling companies 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:49.160 to send their customers monthly activity statements outlining wins and losses, 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.920 and introducing new evidence based taglines and gambling ads, among 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:56.760 other things. I do think maybe that the PM has 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.800 a point. The government hasn't done nothing, But I think 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.720 for many people inside the government they think a lot 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.400 of this debate is based on emotion, not hard evidence. 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.600 Sure, but there is this distinct sense that you get 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.240 that we aren't really getting the full picture as to 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.000 what's happening behind the scenes, because if you look at 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.120 you know, what's actually occurred. We've got a government saying 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.680 that they don't want to act on gambling reform until 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.880 an inquiry really properly looks into it. Then that happens. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.120 They find that online gambling ads should be banned during sport, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.880 and it's now been well over a year, closer to 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.560 a year and a half since the government got those 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:42.000 findings and they haven't responded. So bearing in mind what 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.920 we know about the Prime minister's personal relationships, how should 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.360 we be thinking about who the Aberanezi government is really 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.400 listening to when it comes to gambling reform. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.400 Well, I think Peter Landez said to the Prime Minister, 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.319 don't do it, and he hasn't done it. He said 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.280 it's going to be bad for the NFL, it's going 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.320 to be bad for the AFL. But I think really 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.600 the Prime Minister has three bad options. He can impose 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.800 a full ban on gambling ads that will upset the 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.320 sporting codes and the media, and six months out from 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.920 an election he doesn't necessarily want to be doing that. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.400 He could implement the compromise proposal, and I think a 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:20.680 majority of voters who say they want to complete ban 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.040 on gambly ads probably aren't going to be happy with 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.600 a partial ban. And then the other option, doing nothing, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.840 is not really good for him either. The first anniversary 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.960 of Peter Murphy's death is actually this week, the fourth 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.760 of December, And while I think it's unlikely that the 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.160 Government will announce a decision on this issue, it's still possible. 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.840 Parliament's finished, but Cabinet will still meet right up I 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.320 think until the week before Christmas. This is something that 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.200 has to go through cabinet, So I think it's still 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.960 possible that the Prime Minister could surprise us and come 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:57.960 out with the decision. 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:02.920 Jason thank you so much for your time. 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:03.600 Thanks. 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:17.760 Ruby seven Am is at Ali show from Solstice Media. 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:23.280 It's made by Atticus Bastow, Ariel Richards, Chris Dangate, Crystal Color, 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:30.800 Nicole Johnston, Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans, Zotonfecho and me Daniel James. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.520 Ruby Jones is on to comment and we'll be back 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.520 at the end of March. Our theme music is by 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.160 Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of bon Below Potier. Thanks 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:42.440 so much for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with an 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.640 original episode.