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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday, February twenty seven, twenty twenty six. Negative gearing

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Speaker 1: could soon be limited to two properties under a plan

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Speaker 1: being examined for the federal budget. Treasury is already looking

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Speaker 1: at changes to capital gains tax discounts for existing properties,

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Speaker 1: and now it's also taking a look at negative gearing,

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Speaker 1: which allows investors to offset their taxable income with losses

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Speaker 1: from property investment costs. Head of the Bondai Royal Commission,

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Speaker 1: Virginia Bell told survivors of the December fourteenth terror attack

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Speaker 1: she'll investigate the background of alleged gunman Sejed and nevide Akram,

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Speaker 1: as well as the small police presence at Bondai on

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Speaker 1: the day of the massacre and overseas funding of hate

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Speaker 1: crimes in Australia. Those stories alive right now at The

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Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au. The Brittany Higgins, Bruce Lammon,

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Speaker 1: Walter Sofronoff, Lisa Wilkinson's story never stops rolling now a

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Speaker 1: new chapter. Shane Drumgold, the former Act Prosecutor in the

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Speaker 1: Press Council, complaining about the Australian Today journalist and columnist

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Speaker 1: janetal Rexen joins me to explore a finding she and

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Speaker 1: The Australian strongly disagree with. In March twenty nineteen, two

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Speaker 1: young political staffers went into Parliament House in Canberra late

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Speaker 1: at night, and what happened there has taken us all

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Speaker 1: on a long and rocky road, littered with broken reputations

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Speaker 1: and shattered careers. A court has found, on the balance

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Speaker 1: of probabilities that Bruce Lammon raped Higgins that night, but

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Speaker 1: he has never been convicted in a criminal court. The

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Speaker 1: man who tried to prosecute Lahman was former Act Director

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Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions Shane Drumgold, and after the case failed,

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Speaker 1: the Act Government commissioned retired Judge Walter Sofronov to inquire

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Speaker 1: into the charging and prosecution of Laman. In twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: Sofronov found Drumgold had misled the court and failed to

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Speaker 1: live up to his obligations to disclose material to Lahman's lawyers.

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Speaker 1: Drumgold vehemently denied any wrongdoing and went to the Act

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Justice Stephen kay upheld seven out of eight

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Speaker 1: of Soefronov's findings against Drumgold. Kay agreed with Drumgold that

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Speaker 1: Sofronov's communications with the Australians Janet Albresen during his inquiry

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Speaker 1: gave rise to a reasonable apprehension of bias. Then the

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Speaker 1: Act Integrity Commission found Sofronov had engaged in serious corrupt conduct.

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Speaker 1: Sofronoff appealed to the Federal Court and lost. But this

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Speaker 1: unstoppable story didn't stop there. Janet al Brexen is a

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Speaker 1: columnist with the Australian Janet. For two years now, Shane Drumgold,

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Speaker 1: the former Act Director of Public Prosecutions, has been pursuing

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Speaker 1: a complaint against the Australian in the Australian Press Council.

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Speaker 1: What is Shane Drumgold's problem.

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Speaker 2: That's a big question, but in the end it's actually

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Speaker 2: quite simple.

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Speaker 3: He had a problem with three of our articles that

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Speaker 3: we published, as you say, two years ago, and he

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Speaker 3: claims that we misrepresented the judgment of Justice Stephen Kay

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Speaker 3: in the Act Supreme Court. Yeah, it's been a long

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Speaker 3: and winding road to this decision by the Australian Press Council.

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Speaker 3: But essentially Shane Drumgold objected to initially a finding by

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Speaker 3: Commissioner Walter Soffronoff that criticized his conduct of the criminal

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Speaker 3: prosecution against Bruce Lamon in the Brittany Higgins matter that

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Speaker 3: went to the Act Supreme Court, where Justice Ka found

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Speaker 3: that Waltersfferenoff's findings were right, that Shane Drumcold had got

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Speaker 3: things wrong. But Shane Drumgold didn't want to accept that.

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Speaker 1: What is the nub of this problem though, Janet, you know,

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Speaker 1: where is his critique of the way the Australian covered it.

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Speaker 3: The nub of the problem is clear that after that

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Speaker 3: judgment in the Act Supreme Court, we wrote that we

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Speaker 3: described his victory in that case as a pyrrhic victory.

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Speaker 3: I used those words of pyrrhic victory and we laid

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Speaker 3: out that firstly, that drum Gold succeeded when he saw

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Speaker 3: a declaration that there was an apprehension of bias in

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Speaker 3: Walter Sofferonof's report because of conversations that he had had

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Speaker 3: with people in the media, including myself.

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Speaker 2: He won there.

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Speaker 3: If that was all that Shane Drumgold had sought for

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Speaker 3: the Act Supreme Court, it would have been a huge

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Speaker 3: win for him and we would have reported it as

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Speaker 3: a huge win for him. But that's not all that

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Speaker 3: he wanted. He wanted much more. He asked the Act

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court to declare that the findings by Walter softren

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Speaker 3: Of were legally unreasonable. There were eight findings that he

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Speaker 3: wanted declared in that way and he failed. Seven of

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Speaker 3: those eight findings were found by the judge in that case,

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Speaker 3: by Justice Ka not to be legally unreasonable, and we

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Speaker 3: reported that. And the effect of not getting those declarations

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Speaker 3: was that it was a pyrrhic victory, as I wrote

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Speaker 3: for Shane Drumgold, because seven of the eight findings by

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Speaker 3: Walter Soffronov were not struck down as legally invalid. They

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Speaker 3: remained standing. That's what we wrote. It was accurate. Then

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Speaker 3: it's accurate now to say that, and that's what we've

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Speaker 3: been fighting the Press Council over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this matter went to the Press Council where Shane Drumgold,

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Speaker 1: as the complainant, was able to represent himself. Now he

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Speaker 1: is of course a silk the Australian was not allowed

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Speaker 1: to have legal representation at the Press Council. That's something

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Speaker 1: that our editors have very strongly criticized in some stories

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Speaker 1: that we've been running in the Australian. Essentially this behave

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Speaker 1: like a kangaroo court where one side was allowed to

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Speaker 1: have legal representation and the other wasn't. You're a lawyer, Janet,

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Speaker 1: what's your view of that?

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Speaker 2: That was just simply unfair.

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Speaker 3: What it did was allow the Press Counsel, I think,

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Speaker 3: to give more weight to the statements by someone Shane Drumgold,

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Speaker 3: who is a silk, but he's a criminal lawyer. He

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Speaker 3: is not an expert in administrative law. So it was

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Speaker 3: very frustrating for us that it just seems that the

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Speaker 3: Press Council did not want to look at this objectively

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Speaker 3: and clearly the biggest mistake I think that the Press

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Speaker 3: Council made was to get involved in what was absolutely

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Speaker 3: a dispute about illegal interpretation of a judgment.

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Speaker 2: They say that it wasn't, but of course it was.

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Speaker 2: That's what we were fighting about.

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Speaker 1: The Australian went and commissioned opinions separately from two leading silks,

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Speaker 1: Collins KC and will Horton k C. They both returned

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Speaker 1: with similar opinions that essentially the Australian's reporting of justice

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Speaker 1: case findings were upheld. The Press Council was considering whether

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Speaker 1: we had breached its first general principle. Let me just

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Speaker 1: read that to you, Janet. It says ensure that factual

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Speaker 1: material in news reports and elsewhere is accurate and not misleading,

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Speaker 1: and is distinguishable from other material such as opinion. Now

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Speaker 1: you write opinion, you also write news. You're a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but you're also a journalist, so I think you're a

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Speaker 1: good person to ask about this. The Press Council found

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Speaker 1: that we did breach general principle one, and now Shane

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Speaker 1: Drumgold would consider that, I think to be a victory

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Speaker 1: over the Australian. We now have to publish the Press

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Speaker 1: Council's adjudication. What's your sense of that finding. What's your

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Speaker 1: response to the suggestion that we haven't been accurate or

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Speaker 1: clear or fair accurate?

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Speaker 2: I mean, we take accuracy incredibly seriously and that general

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Speaker 2: principle number one about accuracy is at the heart of

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Speaker 2: what we do.

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Speaker 3: We were correct in our interpretation of the k judgment

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Speaker 3: two years ago. This is where the Press Council got

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Speaker 3: itself into such a tangle, Claire, because this was a

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Speaker 3: legal barney and it was all laid out in the judgment.

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Speaker 2: You literally had to look at the declaration.

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Speaker 3: The orders that Shann Drumgold got, he did not get

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Speaker 3: the ones that he needed to restore his reputation.

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Speaker 2: So we were correct back then two years ago.

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Speaker 3: And the unfortunate thing I think, Claire really and I

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Speaker 3: say this very genuinely, is that mister Drumgold has now

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Speaker 3: secured the second pyrrhic victory because here we are again

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Speaker 3: explaining because we believe in accuracy and defending ourselves because

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Speaker 3: we believe in accuracy. We are going through those devastating

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Speaker 3: findings that Sofronov made against Shane Drumgold, and that Justice

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Speaker 3: ka said, we're not legally unreasonable, and Justice kay went

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Speaker 3: through these forensically. I don't understand how the Press Council

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Speaker 3: could have.

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Speaker 2: Got it so wrong.

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Speaker 3: I can understand the motivations of Shane Drumgog. There was

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Speaker 3: a terrible fall from grace, he lost his job as

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Speaker 3: Chief Prosecutor and the Aact. I don't understand how the

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Speaker 3: Press Council could possibly get it so wrong.

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Speaker 1: One thing that I think everyone can agree that drum

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Speaker 1: Gold did have a win on is Justice kayse finding

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Speaker 1: that a layperson might reasonably have apprehended that Walter soffron

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Speaker 1: Off the commissioner might have been influenced by your views

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Speaker 1: in determining the issues of the inquiry. Now, when I

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Speaker 1: read the communications between you and Walter Soffronoff, I see

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Speaker 1: a journalist doing her job, seeking information, developing a source

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Speaker 1: relationship with someone that's all, of course been exposed throughout

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Speaker 1: these various legal processes. How has that felt for you

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Speaker 1: as a journalist to have your communications with a source

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Speaker 1: revealed like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course I would prefer not to have any

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Speaker 3: communications revealed with the source, because I take confidentiality incredibly serious.

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Speaker 3: But as a person who was there when it happened,

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Speaker 3: let me tell you two things about this. The first

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Speaker 3: is that we absolutely understood that Walter Soffronov's motivation in

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Speaker 3: speaking to members of the press, me being one of them,

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Speaker 3: was that he wanted the press to report accurately, in

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Speaker 3: a timely way and thoroughly and frankly clear. A lot

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Speaker 3: of the media had not been that interested in other

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Speaker 3: aspects of what I call the Higgins Lerman saga, except

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Speaker 3: through the prison of it being Australia's me too moment.

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Speaker 3: But there was so much more to it. A Soferonov

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Speaker 3: and his counsel assisting had exposed during that inquiry, through

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Speaker 3: long sessions, cross examining mister Drumgold himself. It was all

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Speaker 3: laid out, so that was what it was at the

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Speaker 3: core of mister Soffrenov speaking with me. But the other thing, Claire,

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Speaker 3: we have to remember to be fair both to I

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Speaker 3: think to mister Softeironov and to the entire process, is

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Speaker 3: that we're talking about an apprehended bias, not an actual one.

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Speaker 3: The notion that I could have influenced Sophrogno's use is laughable.

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Speaker 3: I was listening, I was asking questions, that I was

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Speaker 3: doing what I was meant to do. But as a

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Speaker 3: matter of law, Shane Drungold absolutely one a declaration that

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Speaker 3: the report was infected by an apprehension of bias. As

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Speaker 3: I said, if he had only stopped their clear he

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Speaker 3: would have had a win. But he went much further,

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Speaker 3: and that's where he got into all sorts of strife.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's a misunderstanding in the legal system

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Speaker 1: about the way journalists do work or should work, and

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Speaker 1: about the level of contact they should have or are

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Speaker 1: allowed to have with judicial officers, for example.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think they operated in this very unreal world

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Speaker 3: where these communications they see them as inherently untoward and

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Speaker 3: they're not necessarily that at all. There was nothing untoward

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Speaker 3: going on, but unfortunately, at law they are. And that's

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Speaker 3: where the law, I think, sometimes loses a connection with

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Speaker 3: what actually happens in practice.

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Speaker 1: Zooming out right back to the entirety of this saga.

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Speaker 1: Britney Higgins accused Bruce Lamon of raping her. That accusation

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Speaker 1: was upheld on the balance of probabilities in the federal

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Speaker 1: court and Bruce Lemmon has lost on appeal there. This

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Speaker 1: is about a young woman claiming that she had been raped,

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Speaker 1: and then so many things spun off from that, allegations

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Speaker 1: of political conspiracy, the destruction of different people's reputations, defamation

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Speaker 1: cases and now a press counsel Barney overall, Janet, where

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Speaker 1: has this whole saga left Australia? And as you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the idea of a me too moment.

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Speaker 3: I think the me too part of it stopped a

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Speaker 3: long time ago.

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Speaker 2: It became, as I.

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Speaker 3: Said earlier, just so much more than that. And Claire,

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Speaker 3: I keep wondering, Well, I don't wonder, but I keep

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Speaker 3: thinking to myself, gosh, when it ever finish?

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Speaker 2: And it went on for.

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Speaker 3: So long because so many people made terrible decisions along

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Speaker 3: the way, many smart people made really terrible decisions, and

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Speaker 3: it ended off shooting down in all over the place,

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Speaker 3: who had different chapters here. As you say, litany of litigation.

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Speaker 3: The cost of taxpos has been enormous, but at its

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Speaker 3: core it's because a number of people who should have

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Speaker 3: known better made very bad decisions, and unfortunately for mister Drogold,

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Speaker 3: he was one of them.

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Speaker 1: Janet Albreson, thank you very much, thank you. Janet Albresen

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Speaker 1: is a journalist and columnist with The Australian. You can

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Speaker 1: read her work right now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au