1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: A cop said to me once. Crooks they only know 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: two times, daytime and nighttime. You didn't get paid much, 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: but you could sleep there. There was always a chance 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: of backing a winner using inside information, and so it 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: did attract in those days a rag Tag and Bobdale 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: collection of no goods. The drink was big for most 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: of them. Those few police and crooks who didn't drink 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: tended to live longer and get along better than those 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: who did. I'm Andrew rule is his life in crimes. 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: But this is not the usual episode. This is another 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: of our irregular segments of Q and A. That is 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: questions and answered. You ask the questions, and I attempt 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: to answer them if I think I can. A mailbox 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: has been overflowing, and now over to Johnny Burton to 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: ask the questions. 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: Hi, there, Andrew, we have, as you say, an overflowing 17 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: mail bag. Thank you very much for everyone for their questions. 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: Some questions we cannot answer for legal or other reasons. 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 2: Other ones have been asked by multiple people, so we've 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: generally credited the first person to ask the question. And 21 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: there are some spectacular questions in this lot. So Greg 22 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: and others have asked, do we know if the right 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 2: types of dogs were used in the search for Ballarat 24 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: woman Sam Murphy. 25 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: Well, the right type of dogs were used to find 26 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: electronic material. They're great. These federal police dogs are trained 27 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: to find things like USB's or phones or laptops or whatever. However, 28 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: I would argue that in the first instance, what is 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: lacking all over Australia, at Ballarat and everywhere else all 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: over Australia, what we don't have is the capacity to 31 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: track quickly missing people. When someone goes missing in a 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: sty we do not seem to have the right dogs 33 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: available to fly in at say six hours notice, twelve 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: hours notice, and pick up the trail and follow it 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: to wherever it leads. Now, if it leads to a body, 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: so be yet, at least you've found the body. If 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: it leads to a dead end, at least you know 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: that that person, the missing person, got to that particular 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: point and then presumably was abducted in a vehicle or 40 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: whatever it might be. It would give some answers. And 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: I know that we've talked about this a lot over 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: the last year or two. But until the authorities apply 43 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: the same value to tracker or trail dogs as they 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: do to other highly trained dogs, such as the ones 45 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: used a customs to find contraband and so on. Until 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: we do that, we will continue to not find lost people. 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: All ought to find their bodies much later. And I 48 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: would suggest that if you were related to a lost person, 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: let's just say a lost child, you'd be much happy 50 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: to see a trail dog turn up in the first 51 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: twelve hours to try and find the lost person while 52 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: they were alive, rather than to see the police producer 53 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: cadaver dog six weeks later to look for the body 54 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: of your lost child. I'll let you be the judge 55 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: of that. 56 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: Hope that answers your question. Greg now to Stephen, and 57 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: Stephen wants to talk about Ron Riddles form a homicide 58 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: cop and podcast host, TV host and many other things 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: guest on this show and other heralds on podcasts, and 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: he's got I think a new podcast in the works 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: or live now anyway, Stephen asks if you can share 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: any experiences or stories of Ron over the journey. 63 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: Ron always had the reputation in the police force of 64 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: being precise and fastidious and painstak He was the guy 65 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: who didn't take the shortcuts, unlike a lot of those 66 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: old time homicide coppers and old time coppers detectives. He 67 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: wasn't a big drinker. He was a fairly clean living 68 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: sort of guy. He didn't really fit the same mold 69 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: as many of his contemporaries, which made him a bit 70 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: different from some of them. It also meant back in 71 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: those days, I think that he got better results than 72 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: some others because he was sober, he was hard working, 73 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: he did have a great work ethic. I think a 74 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: personal morality. I think he always thought that he owed 75 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 1: it to victims and to their families to find bodies 76 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: or to find the killer, or whatever it might be. 77 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: And there's no doubt that a lot of people shared 78 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: that opinion of Ron in the past. In retirement, Ron 79 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: has come to the fore and become well known as 80 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: the man who who instigated the inquiry that led ultimately 81 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: to the exoneration of Jason Roberts in the Silk Miller 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: murders of the two police Now that right or wrong, 83 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: and we weren't going to all the ifs, buts, and 84 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: maybe he's here right or wrong. That meant that Ron 85 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: was going squarely against the prevailing opinion in the police force, 86 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: and it made him deeply unpopular with many police and 87 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: ex police, rather than being the popular figure he had 88 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: been when he worked I think with the Police Association. 89 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: And so we now have a situation where Ron is 90 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: a little bit on the outer with many police and 91 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: ex police, particularly ex police of his own era. I 92 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: doubt young police care much about him, and so that 93 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: might explain that Ron has decided to in retirement to 94 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: stay in the public eye, to respond to a lot 95 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 1: of requests for him to appear on radio, television, whatever 96 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: it might be, rather than just fade away into the sunset. 97 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: Ron has never done any harm to me, and I 98 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: think he's done a lot of good work. Is he 99 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: always right? I'd say only most of the time. 100 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: And if you don't mind allowing me a shameless plug. 101 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: Andrew the herald Son has a podcast called The Devil's Apprentice, 102 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 2: which is available wherever you get your podcasts, in which 103 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 2: Ron features, and that is about Silk Miller murders and 104 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: the subsequent trials of Jason Roberts. A question now from Jay, 105 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: and I have to say, Jay, whoever you are out there, 106 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 2: and in listening to Land, you've put in some excellent 107 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: questions and we shall read one Now can you say, 108 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: and maybe you can't say, but what an average day 109 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: they looked like for an armed robber or that sort 110 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 2: of ilk in Melbourne in the nineteen eighties. What the 111 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: sort of routine these people would have if they had 112 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: a routine. 113 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: Well, one thing is there was plenty of work available 114 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: for them then, because there were a lot of banks, 115 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: and a lot of bank branches, and a lot of 116 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 1: building societies, and they all had money in them because 117 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: in those days we all got paid cash every payday 118 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: in the eighties until the end of the eighties, at least, 119 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: we got cash money and we spent it in cash. 120 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: And therefore there was a lot of cash washing around 121 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: the system. Every football game, every whatever it might be 122 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: you went to, they were collecting cash. This meant that 123 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: armed robbers had a cornacopia of choice when it came 124 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: to robbery targets. And it meant that every other day 125 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: there was some sort of big arm robbery, big or 126 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: big enough armed robbery. Banks, building societies, payrolls, they were 127 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: going off everywhere until the fairly sudden introduction over a 128 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: relatively short time, say a couple of years, of bank security, 129 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: where they put in these massive thick plate glass screens 130 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,559 Speaker 1: that would thump down and all that sort of stuff. 131 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: The security actually made the armed robber redundant within a 132 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: couple of years, and that's when they switched for a 133 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: while more to cash vans and armored cars, and then 134 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: eventually those sort of armed robbers almost went out of business. 135 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: And I think to continue on these shameless plug extravaganza, 136 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 2: I think in Life and Crimes, Jay, if you look 137 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: in the feed we have, I think a two part 138 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: are called something like the Golden Age of armed robbers 139 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 2: or armed robbery that goes through some. 140 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: Of these look. To answer the question more fully, I 141 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: think they said, what does a day look like? Well, 142 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: a cop said to me once. Crooks they only know 143 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: two times. He said, daytime and nighttime. They're not big 144 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: on meeting you at nine o'clock or ten thirty or 145 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: whatever it might be. They're just pretty basic mostly, and 146 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: the average safe of a crook in those times would 147 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: be to get up late and scratch their belly or 148 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: whichever bits of them they want to scratch, and lays 149 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: around the place, go down, probably to an inner suburban pub, 150 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: where they'd meet other blugs of the ilk and they 151 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: would chat among themselves planning this or planning that, or 152 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: they would bet crooks, gamblers by nature, by inclination, by habit, 153 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: and by nature, because how can you be a crook 154 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: if you're not a gambler, Because you're gambling your freedom 155 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: or your life, really, and so the gamble would be 156 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: big for them. The drink was big for most of them, 157 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: and those few who didn't drink tended to survive, same 158 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: with the police. Police and crooks who didn't drink tended 159 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: to live longer and get along better than those who did. 160 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: And the other thing, of course, is they were They 161 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: were mostly males, these fellows, these arm robbers, and they 162 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: would run around with naughty girls, bad girls, and girls 163 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: other than their ever loving wives, because that's the sort 164 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: of people they were. And now and again they'd plan 165 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: a job and pull it off. So they'd have to 166 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: perps get up early or stay up late to go 167 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: and look at a place and do surveillance, case the joint, 168 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: as they say, and they might put on slightly different 169 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: clothes or wherever it might be, and wander around looking 170 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: to case the place. The really good crooks like Russell 171 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: Cox and these guys would wear something like a gray 172 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: dust coat and maybe a pair of hornering glasses, maybe 173 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: a hat or a cap or something, and carry a 174 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: clipboard something like that, so they'd pass themselves off as 175 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: somebody they weren't, so they didn't look like an arm 176 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: robber merching around. They of smart guys would dress like that, 177 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: and they'd walk into a place as if they owned it, 178 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: as if they were supposed to be there, and they 179 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: would observe things and jot it down on their clipboard, 180 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: and they would act as if they were there from 181 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: the electricity company or Talycom or whatever it might be. 182 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: And actually they were taking notes ready to pull a 183 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: big armed robbery. These were the very good arm robbers. 184 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: They weren't all like that. 185 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: A question now from Luke about the police Paddocks, which 186 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: I think we've also done an episode on, other than 187 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighty three cold case of the murder of 188 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: Rodney Mitchell, which was sold through the conviction of James Dobby. 189 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: Are you aware of any other mysterious crimes that linger 190 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: around Roville or haunt the police Paddocks. 191 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: I am not aware of any from around there, but 192 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they didn't happen, and I'm guessing that 193 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: if you've got a big open area like the police 194 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: paddocks were in those days, it's close to suburbia, and 195 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: yet it's relatively big and sheltered that there would always 196 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: be a lover's lane element to it. There'd always be 197 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: someone parking there with their girlfriend or whatever it might be, 198 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: and there would probably be other nefarious things, like people 199 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: with stolen cars going there to burn the car or 200 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: to strip it or whatever. Ye'd be people kids with 201 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: maybe twenty two rifles and air rifles going there to 202 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: play around, shooting at things, all that sort of activity, 203 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: and I'd be very surprised if there weren't other crimes, 204 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: not as serious as Rodney Mitchell's murder, of course, but 205 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: I think where you get lover's lanes in the past particularly, 206 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: you often got perverts who would go along and look 207 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: into cars. And I did know of one group of 208 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: strappers from Corfield Racecourse in the bad old days who 209 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: would go to lover's lanes and they would open up 210 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: a car and they would belt the male of a 211 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: pair of lovers and flog him and then they would 212 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: assault the female. And this was very ugly stuff. And 213 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: I know that when Rodney Mitchell was murdered and the 214 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: police were concentrating on how to work out who did it. 215 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: A relative of mine who worked in racing stables in Corfield, 216 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: advanced that theory, and I told the police and said, 217 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: you should be looking at the low life strappers at 218 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: Corfield because among them are people who are willing to 219 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: assault and rape people in lovers lanes. As it turned 220 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: out it wasn't them, but you never know. 221 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 2: Strappers seemed to be thing in a lot of crime stories. 222 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: Strappers were some of them were pretty low life in 223 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,079 Speaker 1: the old days. When I worked at Jeff Murphy's very 224 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: briefly at Corefield, I noted that many of them had 225 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: not long been out of jail. It was one of 226 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: the jobs I could pick up easily, was to go 227 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: along and work at the stables because it was rough, 228 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: tough work. You didn't get paid much, but you could 229 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: sleep there. You'd get a big breakfast thrown in and 230 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: there was always a chance of backing a winner using 231 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: inside information next Saturday. And so it did attract in 232 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: those days. A rag Tag and Bobdale collection of No Goods. 233 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: Now a question from Tony and Tony shows his bona farides. 234 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: You sent also an image of many books with your 235 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: byline Andrew. 236 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: Oh Tony, I'm so grateful, and. 237 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: He says he really enjoys the podcast and wondering if 238 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: you think, given the number of appeals in play, due 239 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: to the tainted evidence provided by the Lawyer X investigations 240 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: and subsequent legal actions, that there may be a raft 241 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: of convictions overturned and if there is a chance of 242 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: charges being laid against to any police who rolled the 243 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: dice by using Lawyer X as an informant. 244 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: It's a good question, but a hard run to answer. 245 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that some convictions might be able to turn, 246 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: but not as many as has been mooted because, as 247 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: has been pointed out by others, some of those big 248 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: convictions against big names I Tony Mockbell were made for 249 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: very good reasons that had nothing to do with Lawyer X. 250 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: You know, there was red hot evidence against Tony Mockbell, 251 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: notably and others with Mockbell. The fact is that a 252 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: man that is known as the musician, who is a 253 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: protective witness for life, was able to put a USB 254 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: into a laptop computer and draw out all the material 255 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: in it, which gave the police a massive amount of 256 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: information about money transfers from Australia to Greece or wherever, 257 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: which led the police to Tony mocke Bell. And so 258 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: that sort of information caught and convicted Tony Mockbell, and 259 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: it didn't need Lawyer X to put the cherry on top. 260 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that there aren't other cases where perhaps 261 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: her interference will not have some effect. 262 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: Thank you, Tony. Now on to Darren, who wants to 263 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: know what happened to Jean Paul Lascano who was convicted 264 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: of a triple murder. He murdered Paul Taylor, Kevin Simpkins, 265 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 2: and Samantha Taylor at Taylor's Firearms in Springvale, August nineteen 266 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: ninety three. 267 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: I think, if I'm not mistaken, that's a fellow that 268 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: walked in and produced a magazine full of ammunition and 269 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: was able to put it into one of the weapons 270 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: that they were showing him, or that the proprietor showed him, 271 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: and having loaded the firearm with a magazine that he 272 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: had in his pocket, he was able to shoot them. Now, 273 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: I might be wrong, but I think that is what happened. 274 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: What happened to that guy I have no idea, but 275 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: I think a triple shooting, unless he was found to 276 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: be genuinely insane, he will have served a very long 277 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: sentence because it was a terrible thing to do. It 278 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: was really as bad as what Ashley Melville Colston did 279 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: when he killed the three students in a house in Ashburton. 280 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: I think it was. It's a similar crime and unless 281 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: the person was found insane, he would serve a phenomenally 282 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: long sentence. 283 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: That was around the time when there was port. 284 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: Arthurpe Yeah, poor others ninety six. 285 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: Ye. 286 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: Some of those shootings become very famous, well remembered, and 287 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: some don't. It's funny how that is. 288 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: I'm not sure why question from James. My question is 289 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: where did the term colorful racing identity come from? And 290 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: do you have an all time favorite or favorites that 291 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 2: could be described as such. 292 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 1: Well, it's something that we've all come to use a 293 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: tongue in cheeks sending it up. But it was coined 294 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: in Sydney where the social spectrum was infested with colorful 295 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: racing identities, and it was code back in the day 296 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: in the media in the eighties, maybe even the seventies, 297 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: but certainly the eighties for people like George Freeman, who 298 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: was organized crime, you know, zah it was a big deal. 299 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: But not only other forms of crime. He was a 300 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: big race fixer, and of course there'd be those around 301 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: him who would also be painted with the same brush. 302 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: But George Freeman was probably the first Australian colorful racing 303 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: identity so called. He wasn't the first of them, he 304 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: was the first to get that name, and it was 305 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: a I think he was dubbed that by the media 306 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: as a way of relaying what he was without actually 307 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: defaming him. 308 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: And would he be your favorite, Oh well, colorful racing identities, 309 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: I suppose there's been, well, to some extent. 310 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: Tony Mockbell was. He was a crook who used his 311 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: money on the racetrack, mainly was laundering money. But they 312 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: it's you know, they're laundering it, but it's a job 313 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: they enjoyed. They love gambling and love the punt, so 314 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: it was a labor of love for a lot of 315 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: those guys, a lot of crooks, you know, they would 316 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: rob a bank and end up dropping a heap of 317 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: it at the racetrack. It's just a crazy thing. Even 318 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: somebody liked Billy Longley, the late Billy Longley, who from 319 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: men who killed a dozen people or something, career criminal. 320 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: It was a very sort of sensible chap, which is 321 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: why he ended up dying in his eighties of old age. 322 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: He wasn't shot dead, but even he told me once 323 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: that he dropped a massive amount I think ten pounds 324 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: or something. It was enough to buy you two or 325 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: three houses, a lot of money. He dropped it at 326 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: the races and discouraged him from betting on horses for 327 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: quite a while, he told me. 328 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: Sticking with Sydney, we have a question from Diane nice name. 329 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 2: Is the gang problem worse in Sydney or Melbourne. 330 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: Well, we like to think we're better than Sydney, and 331 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: we like to think our gangsters are better, and traditionally 332 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: i'd say they were. The late Billy Longley, we've just 333 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: mentioned him, he always said Sydney for money and Melbourne 334 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: for blokes. And what he meant was, if you want 335 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: a tough guy to shoot somebody, he had to hire 336 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: a Melbourne fella. He'd do the job and he wouldn't 337 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: give you up. But Sydney was the place to earn 338 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: the money. They would pay you to drive to Sydney 339 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: and do something, which often happened with Billy. He would 340 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: drive up there and do a job and then drive 341 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: back again. But these days I'm thinking that Sydney because 342 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: of the big bikey and Middle Eastern crime scene up 343 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: there where they're all shooting each other as it's in 344 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: the middle of a wave, which is very similar to 345 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: the wave we had in Melbourne in the early two thousands. 346 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: And it will pass eventually because I'll shoot each other 347 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: until the police get on top of it and it'll 348 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: ease up. But the current Middle Eastern and or bikey 349 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: crime wave in Sydney is easily as big as Melbourne's 350 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: underbelly underworld gangland War of twenty years ago, if not 351 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: bigger now. 352 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: A question from Dale moving back to home, back to Melbourne. 353 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: Dale has always been fascinated by the Mister Cruel Case, 354 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: really enjoyed the episode with normal Lee as a prime 355 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 2: suspect in that series of crimes. Dal asks, is there 356 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: any more news on this or any chance that normal 357 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: Lee might be officially named for this crime? 358 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: That Normally Lee story was interesting and I did it 359 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: because it was interesting, and I did it because Ron Ddles, 360 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: who we've mentioned told me that this old robber, Alfie Gay, 361 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: had asked him to come and see, which he did 362 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: because Elfie Gay was dying of cancer. And he chose 363 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: to tell Ron Eddles, rightly or wrongly, that his former 364 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: robbery colleague, you know, associate Normal Lee, had a kink 365 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: about young girls, teenage girls, and that he alleged that 366 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: Normally had kept a skill uniform of some sort of 367 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: a girl's skill uniform. And he also told Ron that 368 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: normal Lee had a house up near Eltham somewhere, and 369 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: that he knew that because he'd been up there at 370 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: Normally's invitation to meet him at a supermarket car park 371 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: to discuss some robbery they were doing. And so this 372 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: seemed to me a good enough reason that, you know, 373 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 1: a detective like Eatles had talked to a dying robber who, 374 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: although he was a criminal, wasn't known for being a fantasist, 375 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: who chose to tell him that particular story. I thought, well, 376 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: even if it's wrong, it's very interesting that this man 377 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: would tell this story, and so I researched it and 378 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: told the story the way that Dale has recounted. And 379 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: it was interesting because it turns out that you know aeroplanes. 380 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: The big clue in the Mister Cruel case was that 381 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: one of the abducted girls, very alert, very intelligent girl, 382 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: she realized that aeroplanes were turning in the sky above 383 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: the suburb where she was being held. And although she 384 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: was blindfolded, she could hear everything, and she could tell 385 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: the planes were coming from one direction, turning above the 386 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: house and heading in another direction. And that is a 387 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: particular turning point thing that only happens at particular spots 388 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: around Melbourne a certain distance from the airport. And it 389 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: turns out that Eltham was one such place back in 390 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: the past. There is a marker there that was set 391 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: up for the pilots to use, and they still continued 392 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: to use it even after some other people didn't use it. 393 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: Depending on the weather, that people coming down the coast 394 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: from Sydney or Brisbane or somewhere would tend to turn 395 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: at Elthham rather than coming over Sumbury or whatever the 396 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: other alternative rute is. And this information meant that the 397 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: police's concentration on flight paths close to Tullamarine Airport, around 398 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: Thomastown and those places it was right for them to 399 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: look at Thomastown and all those suburbs Pascoe Vale, etc. 400 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: But alpham and surrounding postcodes also qualified, and that made 401 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: it interesting. What it doesn't mean is that normally did it. 402 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: It just made it a fascinating possibility that had not 403 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: struck anyone else. I really am agnostic about it. I 404 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't like to bet my house one way or the other. 405 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: But as recently as this week, I have spent hours 406 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: talking in this case to a person, a highly intelligent person, 407 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: a scientist, this person who is convinced that he or 408 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: she has the answer to the mister Cruel conundrum because 409 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: of X, Y and Z. I only tell that story 410 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: not because I think that person is right necessarily, but 411 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: because it shows the massive interest in mister krule that 412 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: you Dale are one of thousands of people who are 413 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: riveted by it. And in fact, I've even had people 414 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: from overseas, from America contact me with very complex, detailed 415 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: theories about who've done it. And one of those theories, 416 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: which was very elaborated, it took somebody hundreds or thousands 417 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: of ours of deep research online. This is a guy 418 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: in America, would you believe, And he came up with 419 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: the conclusion that mister Krule was a senior journalist formerly 420 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: at the Age newspaper, someone I know well. I know 421 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: him well, and I know his wife well. I used 422 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: to sit next to his wife at the Age, and 423 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: this armchair sleuth in America at the end of all 424 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: these thousands of ours deduced that mister Krule was this 425 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: senior Melbourne journalist. I have to say it was a 426 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: highly circumstantial case and I don't believe it. 427 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: It's funny, Andrew. I was reading Reddit, to the online 428 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 2: forum and on the top of my food appeared mister 429 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: Krawl as a subject, and there was thousands of people, 430 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: as you say, weighing in on who they thought done it. 431 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 2: In fact, using the episode of Life and Crimes, the 432 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: mister Krul triangle. I think we called it, yeah, as 433 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 2: part of their research. 434 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 1: Yes, it's funny how you know it becomes part of research. 435 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: But the fact that we did it doesn't mean it's 436 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: right or it's wrong. We just did a story because 437 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: it cropped up. There are other versions, other histories, other 438 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: theories that have been canvassed, and in the future will 439 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: be canvassed again. If somebody comes forward and says I 440 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: think it was Uncle Joe for those reasons, and it's 441 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: a compelling enough story we will run that story too. 442 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: And second lastly, for this crop of questions, we're back 443 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 2: with Jay, who had a question in the previous Q 444 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 2: and A episode. This is Ray Denning was the poster 445 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: boy of the prison reform movement in the nineteen seventies 446 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: and eighties. Do you believe that the university groups advocating 447 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 2: for prison reform and these times were largely naive to 448 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: the reality of the crimes committed by these crooks? Or 449 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 2: do you believe that they understood the reality but held 450 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: a belief that the prison conditions were still too brutal 451 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: in the seventies and eighties. 452 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: I think both answers are probably right that some people 453 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 1: were hugely naive and believe that prisoners are sort of 454 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: like dogs locked up at the Lost Dogs Home. They 455 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: deserve a love and attention and a tickle behind the ear. 456 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people love the idea of 457 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: having a tame prisoner. They're fascinated by prisoners, and often 458 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: that is females out in the world who are bored 459 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: with their lives, who find the idea of being in 460 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: touch with a prisoner that gives them thrill basically, which 461 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: is why prison waiting rooms and we've said this often, John, 462 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: Prison waiting rooms, as I've noticed over the years, are 463 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: full of women there to visit blokes who by and 464 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: large don't deserve to be visited. And not always, but 465 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: quite often, there are women in there with kids and 466 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: someone who are very devoted and very kindly and very 467 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: well meaning, and they're there to support and comfort someone 468 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: who when that person gets out, doesn't treat them very 469 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: well at all. So a mixture of motives with those things. 470 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: Those people that help Denning with safe houses and so on, 471 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: I think they got a sort of a vicarious thrilled 472 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: dealing with dangerous guys. I've got a safe house, and 473 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, this man on the run has come to 474 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: stay at my safe house, and no one else knows. 475 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: It's a big secret between me and you know, mister 476 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: X and mister Y, and we're the only ones who 477 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: know where he is. And it gives them sort of 478 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: spy versus spy thrill. And I'm not sure that that 479 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: was a good enough reason to do it. Also, prison 480 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: conditions were pretty bad, and back in those days, a 481 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: lot of crooks did get very woefully beaten up by 482 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: police and things like that, and by prison officers. So 483 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, some prisoners had some pretty legitimate beefs, but 484 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: also they were pretty legitimate crooks. 485 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: Now I'm going to ascribe this to helping our listeners 486 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: and not the fact that I can't remember if we've 487 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: done a show on this before. But Denning, what was 488 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: his deal? 489 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: Raymond Charles Denning, serial robber, filing, intelligent bloke, came out 490 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: of New South Wales. There is a very fine book 491 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: written by Mark Dappan, and it's about not just Denning, 492 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: but about the great robber in Australia and the great 493 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: escaper esk in Australia, Russell Cox dubbed mad Dog Cox 494 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: by someone who shall remain nameless but looks a bit 495 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: like Sly and whose real name, of course was not Cox, 496 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: it was Schnitzeling. That book by Mark Dappan dapi N 497 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: is a very interesting insight into Denning's life and crimes 498 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: and also Coxes. 499 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: And I think we've had Dappan on the show at 500 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: some stage to talk about said book. 501 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: Oh hope, we good of years ago. 502 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: Mark DApp Yes, I can't remember the name of that 503 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: episode everyone listening, but it will be in your feed 504 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: if you choose to look it up. 505 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: I think the book is called something something the Golden 506 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: Age of arm Robbers. That's the subtitle. It's it's very readable. 507 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: So the book and a couple of our shows talking 508 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: about the Golden Age of arm robbery. One last question, 509 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: which isn't a question, it's just a device by which 510 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 2: we can give you some information, and that is if 511 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: you are interested in asking a question of Andrew, please 512 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: email us at lifeAnd Crimes at news dot com dot 513 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: au Life and Crimes one word at news dot com 514 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 2: dot a you, and we will endeavor to answer it 515 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: on a future show. Thank you to those of you 516 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: who have asked a question, and if you're at all interested, 517 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: Life and Crimes is on Crimexplus, which is our premium 518 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: service through Apple Podcasts. There's information on how to access 519 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 2: that in the description. And if you are keen on 520 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: Andrew's work or any of the other work of our 521 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: fine journalists in The Herald Sun, you can go to 522 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: Haroldsun dot com dot you and find out how you 523 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: can read more of it by taking out a subscription there. 524 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: Thank you Andrew, Thank you John, Thanks for listening. Life 525 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true 526 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 527 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 528 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 529 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 530 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 531 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 532 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: the description.