Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This episode
Speaker 1: was recorded live at the twenty twenty five South By
Speaker 1: Southwest Conference at the Sydney International Convention Center. I was
Speaker 1: on a panel with Kayla Jade, who's one of Australia's
Speaker 1: most well known sex workers. The session was hosted by
Speaker 1: journalists Claire Stevens. Now, you might wonder what we had
Speaker 1: to talk about a sex worker and a former cop. Well,
Speaker 1: it was a lot of fun because besides being a
Speaker 1: sex worker, Kayla also hosts podcasts, and that's what we
Speaker 1: talked about. We discussed changing face of media and the
Speaker 1: role that podcast is playing keeping people informed. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed the chat and I think you will too.
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Claire Stephens. Thank you for joining us at
Speaker 2: show Notes for our session flip the script how podcasts
Speaker 2: can reshape the narrative. Before we begin, I want to
Speaker 2: acknowledge the Gadigal people of the or Nation whose land
Speaker 2: we are gathering on today. Spoken word and storytelling is
Speaker 2: such a valuable part of First Nations culture and I
Speaker 2: feel very privileged to be able to embrace these practices
Speaker 2: through storytelling and podcasts. Today I am joined by two
Speaker 2: very different people who have you podcasting to reshape two
Speaker 2: very different kinds of narratives. You might be wondering what
Speaker 2: Australia's most famous homicide detective and Australia's most famous sex
Speaker 2: worker have in common, but there is a surprising amount
Speaker 2: of common ground here. I want to start by introducing
Speaker 2: Gary Jublin, the host of one of the most listened
Speaker 2: to podcasts in the country, I Catch Killers. Jubilin sits
Speaker 2: across from cops, criminals, addicts, victims, lawyers and more to
Speaker 2: hear their stories, and he explores the ideas of good
Speaker 2: and evil, redemption, suffering, joy and tragedy. He is particularly
Speaker 2: qualified to do this after a thirty four year policing
Speaker 2: career where he led investigations into the disappearance of William
Speaker 2: Tyrrel as well as the serial killing of three Indigenous
Speaker 2: children in Bauerville. He also run the crime scene following
Speaker 2: the Link Cafe siege. Then it's my pleasure to introduce
Speaker 2: Kayla Jaide, the host of story Time by Kayla Jade,
Speaker 2: which hit one millions streams in its first month. Anyone
Speaker 2: who has ever had anything to do with podcasting knows
Speaker 2: how absurdly impressive that is. She is a sex worker,
Speaker 2: a storyteller, and a viral creator with two point three
Speaker 2: million followers on TikTok and on Storytime, Kayla char's uncensored stories,
Speaker 2: vulnerable chats, celebrity interviews, and a chance to ask her anything.
Speaker 2: Nothing is off limits as she records from home and
Speaker 2: talks about everything from money to mental health, to body
Speaker 2: image and beauty standards. Very briefly, I'm Clare Stevens I'm
Speaker 2: the host of The Pylon, a podcast that interviews people
Speaker 2: who have been at the center of online outrage, and
Speaker 2: that is actually where I want to start. Gary, you
Speaker 2: left the police force in twenty nineteen after being accused
Speaker 2: of a legally recording a suspect in the William Tyrell investigation.
Speaker 2: I can imagine that was a really tumultuous time personally
Speaker 2: and professionally. Yet you turn into podcasting not too long afterwards.
Speaker 2: Why was it podcasting you turned to out of every
Speaker 2: possible career that you could have gone to.
Speaker 1: Well with my criminal conviction, I couldn't be a private investigator.
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's a separate story, and I still deny
Speaker 1: the allegation. A lot of people reached out to me
Speaker 1: I had I was fortunate or unfortunate, however you look
Speaker 1: at it. In the police, I worked a lot of
Speaker 1: high profile jobs. So when people found out that I
Speaker 1: was leaving the police, or even before I left the police,
Speaker 1: people in the media were reaching out out to me
Speaker 1: a variety of offers and shows and different things. And
Speaker 1: then with news Corp. Part of it was to write
Speaker 1: write articles for the papers, but the other thing was
Speaker 1: to do a podcast, and I liked the podcast because
Speaker 1: I had a lot of work with TV shows like
Speaker 1: four Corners, sixty Minutes, that type of thing, and I'm
Speaker 1: very mindful that when you're being quoted in the media,
Speaker 1: when you've got a camera on you for eight hours
Speaker 1: and then they're only looking for a minute here or
Speaker 1: a minute there, how it can be confusing. Podcasting I
Speaker 1: had a slight idea.
Speaker 3: What it was.
Speaker 1: I'd listened to podcasts and that, but it just felt
Speaker 1: like an area that I could work in that I
Speaker 1: had some degree of control. Because when your a cop
Speaker 1: as long as I was, and then you're charged and
Speaker 1: you're on the front page of the paper, your integrity
Speaker 1: is important. And I thought I could still maintain my
Speaker 1: integrity if I had control. And I felt that in
Speaker 1: the podcast world, I had that little bit of control.
Speaker 2: And Kayla, you also were in a bit of a
Speaker 2: tumultuous time in that there was all this stuff going
Speaker 2: on online about your personal life and your family, and
Speaker 2: you could have responded on TikTok, you could have responded
Speaker 2: in many different forums, and yet you responded with podcasting.
Speaker 2: Why was that?
Speaker 4: I mean, it just made sense because you know, everything
Speaker 4: came out all at once and I was launching this podcast,
Speaker 4: and I was like, how can I not talk about this?
Speaker 5: You know, it's such a big thing. But that's just
Speaker 5: the way of the internet. You know.
Speaker 4: It's like, when you're putting yourself out there online, you're
Speaker 4: going to expect some sort of like backlash from people
Speaker 4: or people trying.
Speaker 5: To take things too far.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I just wanted to share my side of
Speaker 4: the story, like in an depth way. Obviously, going on podcasts,
Speaker 4: it's much longer form content, so it's certainly so much
Speaker 4: you can share on TikTok, So yeah, it was made
Speaker 4: sense to do it that way.
Speaker 2: Do you think there is the opportunity because you were
Speaker 2: talking about something so sensitive, which was your kids, and
Speaker 2: people had been going through and trying to unearth details
Speaker 2: which must have been really scary, And the fact that
Speaker 2: you did it via podcasting, do you think there was
Speaker 2: more of an intimacy with the listener where you like
Speaker 2: you knew that it was being listened to in good faith.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so I just put all my all
Speaker 4: out there, you know, there any edits or anything. I
Speaker 4: just wanted to tell my side of the story. So yeah,
Speaker 4: it made sense doing it.
Speaker 2: That way, and clearly people really really wanted to know
Speaker 2: and wanted to know in that long form format. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people think that they can just
Speaker 2: pick up a microphone and have a successful podcast.
Speaker 5: I want to know what it.
Speaker 2: Took to become successful and good at this. So Gary,
Speaker 2: when you first started, did you have media training? Like?
Speaker 2: How did you how did you go from a make
Speaker 2: such a radical career jump.
Speaker 1: I didn't have any media training, but I was comfortable
Speaker 1: speaking to the media with the high profile jobs I had,
Speaker 1: so I had an understanding of media as such. But
Speaker 1: in terms of training, what was suggested for my first
Speaker 1: episode of the podcast, episode one of my catch Killers
Speaker 1: was how about you get your old workmate Jason Eavers,
Speaker 1: who I worked in homicide with for ten years, and
Speaker 1: we'll put you in a pub and we'll fly him
Speaker 1: down to Sydney and we'll give you some drinks and
Speaker 1: we're going to.
Speaker 3: Record that conversation. Let's see how it goes.
Speaker 1: And literally that was the first episode of eye catch Killers.
Speaker 1: Interesting in the topic that we're talking about today too,
Speaker 1: Like when I provided that unedited version that went for
Speaker 1: about two and a half hours, the suggestion was from
Speaker 1: the media, the more traditional thinking media let's cut it down.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about when you guys were running that case
Speaker 1: or when you turned up at that crime scene.
Speaker 3: And I was fortunate that it was clear. Harvey.
Speaker 1: I think that got a good reputation in the media world.
Speaker 1: She pushed back on it and said, no, let's run it.
Speaker 1: This is what long form conversation is about. We laughed,
Speaker 1: we turned on each other, we joked about things, but
Speaker 1: you've got a sense, and it created an environment like
Speaker 1: it was a fly on the wall, so people listening
Speaker 1: to it could understand who Jason than I were and
Speaker 1: what our backstory was in that long form conversation. So
Speaker 1: no training, I prepare for an interview like I prepare
Speaker 1: for an interview if I'm interviewing a bad guy. And
Speaker 1: that was what I was paid to do to get
Speaker 1: people to confess to crimes. So I don't want to
Speaker 1: I don't ever have a guess on the podcast unless
Speaker 1: I declare this is what I'm going to do. I
Speaker 1: always want to protect the guests because they're vulnerable. We're
Speaker 1: talking about very emotional, deep issues and personal details. So
Speaker 1: I always say I will protect you. And like sometimes
Speaker 1: I've got bikes on and they're saying bad things about
Speaker 1: another rival biking gang, and mate, we've got to wind
Speaker 1: that in a little bit because otherwise we might start
Speaker 1: a biking walk. Yeah, I'm not joking. I've had many
Speaker 1: a heated discussion late at night going okay, we'll do this,
Speaker 1: do that. But they're the things that you've got to
Speaker 1: try and try and protect your guests. So it's not
Speaker 1: about that gotcha moment. It's more about letting the listener
Speaker 1: form their own views about the person you're speaking to.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, leaving it unedited or obviously maybe cutting
Speaker 2: the biker gangs, but leaving a lot of it in.
Speaker 2: It is so important for the listener to have all
Speaker 2: the context of your dynamic with somebody and of the
Speaker 2: tone of it that you don't get a tone when
Speaker 2: you read something that's just written, and even on a
Speaker 2: platform like TikTok, when things can be you know, stitched,
Speaker 2: or people can take a tiny bit of what you've
Speaker 2: said and ignore the context that might actually change the narrative. Kaylor,
Speaker 2: what did it actually take behind the scenes to make
Speaker 2: your podcast? Because what was kind of what did you
Speaker 2: have to stretch in terms of skills, what did you
Speaker 2: have to learn? What would people not know about what
Speaker 2: it actually took.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like learning a new language in a way,
Speaker 4: because you know, I was so used to short form
Speaker 4: content and then going to long form it was like
Speaker 4: a whole different thing. Like I had just learned to
Speaker 4: stop butting in in front of people and like you know, so, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's definitely a skill in itself, and there's been a
Speaker 4: lot of learning curves.
Speaker 5: But I'm loving the process, you know, I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 3: And do you.
Speaker 2: Use what goes off on TikTok to inform the decisions
Speaker 2: you make for the podcast?
Speaker 4: Not necessarily like in sometimes sometimes I'll just, like, you know,
Speaker 4: elaborate more on a story, like say if because you
Speaker 4: know on TikTok you probably want like a couple.
Speaker 5: Of minutes max.
Speaker 4: But in the longer form content I could just elaborate
Speaker 4: more and go into detail.
Speaker 2: I speaking of detail, I needed to touch on Peggy Sue.
Speaker 2: So there may be people I don't know, maybe Gary,
Speaker 2: who doesn't know the Peggy Sue story. Kayla, could you
Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't know, could you just give a
Speaker 2: little bit of a summary of the Peggy su dominum.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so he's an old client of mine who
Speaker 4: I don't know how we can get on him. So
Speaker 4: obviously I see clients for work, and he was one
Speaker 4: of my clients that likes to do little things in
Speaker 4: the behind region. And yeah, obviously you know taken some
Speaker 4: decent sized members up there, and yeah, we're just chat
Speaker 4: about it on my TikTok and apparently people they listening
Speaker 4: to it.
Speaker 2: So and there are a lot of theories about who
Speaker 2: Peggy su is, and one in particular that I won't
Speaker 2: say because I don't know if I can say it
Speaker 2: legally in this room.
Speaker 5: I don't know if I can.
Speaker 2: Who knows what we can Actually Gary probably knows what
Speaker 2: we can say legally. He'll arrest us.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say. I think I don't want
Speaker 3: to get the call the guest.
Speaker 2: But you did an episode about Peggy Su on the podcast.
Speaker 2: What could you say in that format that was different
Speaker 2: to TikTok And why do you think people were going
Speaker 2: there as opposed to the shorter kind of narrative that
Speaker 2: was happening elsewhere.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I guess he was on the TikTok, Like
Speaker 4: we didn't specifically see him, but he was there answering questions.
Speaker 4: I did like a Q and A on my Instagram, like,
Speaker 4: what do you want to talk to Peggy Sew about?
Speaker 4: And then I just asked him a bunch of questions
Speaker 4: and yeah, it's just there's been a lot of speculation
Speaker 4: on who it is, but I can either confirm or deny.
Speaker 2: I love it if you if you want to know
Speaker 2: what that speculation is, go on TikTok. It's so fun.
Speaker 2: Both of you have really stood out in a crowded
Speaker 2: podcast landscape, and my theory is that it's because both
Speaker 2: of you bring lived experience and a certain depth to
Speaker 2: this space that other creators might not so Gary. For example,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of there are a lot of
Speaker 2: true crime podcasts an insane amount, and there are journalists interviewing,
Speaker 2: there are amateurs, there are there are comedians doing true
Speaker 2: crime podcasts. But there's something very, very different about a
Speaker 2: crime podcast that is led by a former detective. What
Speaker 2: do you think it is that you're able to offer
Speaker 2: that other people can't.
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose I'd be a slave learner if I
Speaker 1: spent twenty years investigating homicide and not sort of picking
Speaker 1: up on things. I can speak the language, I can
Speaker 1: speak the language of the detectives. If I've got police officers,
Speaker 1: I understand the world. They understand the culture. I also
Speaker 1: with the bad guys, I can speak their language. That
Speaker 1: was half the time was spent with cops, half the
Speaker 1: time spent with bad guys.
Speaker 3: They're the people that you chase.
Speaker 1: They understood where I was coming from, and I understood
Speaker 1: where they were coming from. And then with the victims,
Speaker 1: I don't think unless you see the pain that's associated
Speaker 1: with the people dealing with murder. And quite often I'd
Speaker 1: meet these people by knocking on the door and informing
Speaker 1: them that their loved one has been killed, and it
Speaker 1: sticks with you that emotion. So when I'm speaking two
Speaker 1: victims of crime, which we have a lot on, they
Speaker 1: understand that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it, and I look after them.
Speaker 1: And in terms of where we take the podcast, and
Speaker 1: I think it's just that's the layer that I give
Speaker 1: with the experience to a true crime podcast, I do
Speaker 1: understand the world. And I was a little bit reluctant
Speaker 1: at the start with true crime podcasts because I didn't
Speaker 1: want to glorify crime. And I made a real strong
Speaker 1: point of saying I want to show crime three sixty
Speaker 1: like three sixty it's not all black and white. There's
Speaker 1: good guys, bad guys, and there's all combinations, and there's
Speaker 1: a lot of pain associated with crime. And I don't
Speaker 1: take it flippantly when I'm talking to victims. But having
Speaker 1: said that, and we're all sitting here tense, you do
Speaker 1: have permission to laugh. I've had people on the podcasts
Speaker 1: that have had their family murdered, and we can sit
Speaker 1: there and we can laugh, and people might be looking
Speaker 1: from the outside, going, what the hell's going on?
Speaker 2: Is?
Speaker 1: How insensitive is this talking to this family and making
Speaker 1: a joke. But you've got to see some light in
Speaker 1: the darkness, and that's again a skill I suppose you
Speaker 1: pick up working in that area for as long as
Speaker 1: long as I did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the reason people lean in so
Speaker 2: hard to your podcast is because it's almost behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: Like everyone wants to know what it's like when police interview,
Speaker 2: when they speak to victims, how they deliver information to
Speaker 2: victims when they speak to criminals. What kind of techniques
Speaker 2: from interviewing as in your time in the police do
Speaker 2: you bring to the podcast that you think journalists, for example,
Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily have.
Speaker 1: You can't underestimate the pregnant pause. You ask someone the
Speaker 1: question and just sit there and stare at them, and
Speaker 1: I feel like you'd be there, sooner or later they're
Speaker 1: going to talk. So that's part of it. When you're
Speaker 1: sitting down with someone, knowledge is power, and like if
Speaker 1: you've done your research before you're sitting down with the guests,
Speaker 1: that helps. And you might read a whole book and
Speaker 1: that you might be referring to anything in the book
Speaker 1: other than that's right. When you were seven you fell
Speaker 1: off the bike and you can see the guests all
Speaker 1: of a sudden go, You've spent the time to prepare
Speaker 1: for this, You've shown me respect, and then invariably they'll
Speaker 1: provide more information. And also you've got to laugh at yourself.
Speaker 1: You've got to reveal a little bit about yourself. So
Speaker 1: if you're asking an embarrassing question of them, sometimes to
Speaker 1: make them feel comfortable in exchange of stupid stories, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I've done this and done that. So that makes it
Speaker 1: feel equal and they feel comfortable and you keep that
Speaker 1: conversation going.
Speaker 2: I think that's something in media that's really coming out
Speaker 2: in podcasting that mainstream media is, you know, and obviously
Speaker 2: NewsCorp has been a huge supporter of your work. But
Speaker 2: podcasting allows for these diverse voices and different types of
Speaker 2: people with different types of backgrounds to tell stories. And Kayla,
Speaker 2: you are able to embrace storytelling in a way that
Speaker 2: really really resonates with women in particular. And I would say,
Speaker 2: is it overwhelmingly women who are the audience for your show?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, about ninety percent? Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And why do you think women are so fascinated by you,
Speaker 2: not even just at a surface level, but will lean
Speaker 2: in harder and harder and harder the more you have
Speaker 2: to share.
Speaker 4: I guess it's because, like I've just I mean since
Speaker 4: I started this TikTok, I've always just tried to be
Speaker 4: myself as much as possible and just you know, share
Speaker 4: what's going on with my day, like how I'm feeling,
Speaker 4: you know, the downsides and the good sides like and
Speaker 4: I think just sharing that realness like resonated with a
Speaker 4: lot of women.
Speaker 2: So yeah, do you think that having the background that
Speaker 2: you do, is there any like are there transferable skills
Speaker 2: like things from having worked in sex work? And I
Speaker 2: imagine you become tough and resilient and you are fiercely
Speaker 2: independent and you know what your boundaries are. Do you
Speaker 2: think that has helped in podcasting?
Speaker 4: I think so, Like I talk a lot about like
Speaker 4: my boundaries and even like you know, female hygiene and
Speaker 4: everything that a lot of sex workers know a lot about,
Speaker 4: so I think they come to me for information and
Speaker 4: stuff as well.
Speaker 2: Is there anything because I think the other thing people
Speaker 2: lean into is how open and you don't seem self
Speaker 2: conscious or shy about talking about these things that so
Speaker 2: many people could never talk about. Has there ever been
Speaker 2: anything that you have not wanted to talk about in
Speaker 2: the realm of sex work or the realm of your
Speaker 2: experiences there?
Speaker 4: I think I talk about pretty much everything that's like
Speaker 4: in TikTok guidelines as much as I can share. I mean,
Speaker 4: I could talk about a whole lot more, but I'd
Speaker 4: probably get canceled off YouTube or whatever. So yeah, there's
Speaker 4: nothing that I hold back from other than I guess
Speaker 4: private family life. That would probably be the only thing.
Speaker 2: With podcasting do you have to be careful what you
Speaker 2: talk about for sponsorships?
Speaker 4: For brandomly, it's been a learning curve because I thought
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, a podcast would be great for like,
Speaker 4: you know, I can be more uncensored and talk more like,
Speaker 4: you know, without making up words like you know, Shlondon
Speaker 4: for condom or whatever. So I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: I can do that, but then as soon as you
Speaker 4: put on YouTube, it's like, no, you can't say this,
Speaker 4: you can't say that. So yeah, learning all those curves.
Speaker 2: But know, and what kind of things do clients flag
Speaker 2: that they don't want you to go near?
Speaker 5: Is it surprising?
Speaker 7: Ah?
Speaker 4: Just anything like I always stay clear of anything personal.
Speaker 4: You know, I wouldn't say anything about their personal life
Speaker 4: or where they work or you know, describe them too
Speaker 4: much or anything.
Speaker 5: I'm always very careful with that.
Speaker 2: And yeah, because I am like, your podcast has got
Speaker 2: such a huge audience, and one thing that is a
Speaker 2: challenge for podcasting generally is kind of getting advertisers on
Speaker 2: board to see to lean into the audience rather than
Speaker 2: the content, Like they don't need to they don't need
Speaker 2: to be pro anal in order to be pro Kayla
Speaker 2: Jad's audience. Yes, and so when you've had conversations like
Speaker 2: have you had big advertisers.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes we have.
Speaker 4: But obviously there's still a lot of stigma behind sex works.
Speaker 4: So we're slowly breaking that now narrative, like people speaking
Speaker 4: out and talking about it more.
Speaker 6: So.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had a few advertisers that I've been like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, like this is so exciting.
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's a fun journey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for both of you, like also being
Speaker 2: doing content that's around crime, advertisers can get really really
Speaker 2: scared of it. And it's really interesting because it's where
Speaker 2: the audiences are, Like, it's where it's you know, You've
Speaker 2: got a million streams in a month and most most
Speaker 2: podcasters couldn't even imagine that. And I think it's sort
Speaker 2: of a journey that audiences are making the journey and
Speaker 2: a lot of advertisers are sort of just behind. You
Speaker 2: both have a wealth of experience in your respective field,
Speaker 2: and I do. I sort of touched on this with you, Kayla.
Speaker 2: But Gary, have there been any other apart from those
Speaker 2: interview skills, any other transferable skills from police work into
Speaker 2: podcastingh a thick skin.
Speaker 1: I suppose it was when I got in the podcasting
Speaker 1: I didn't really like when I was in the police.
Speaker 1: I had a profile when I was in the police,
Speaker 1: so I was used to being.
Speaker 3: In the media.
Speaker 1: But if people didn't like me that was okay because
Speaker 1: I was a cop and yeah, I'm just doing my job.
Speaker 1: And then when I told my kids, I said, I'm
Speaker 1: doing a podcast, and they probably had more of a
Speaker 1: sense of what podcasting was than I did, and they're going, oh,
Speaker 1: if you go bad, you're going to get smashed on
Speaker 1: social media. I've gone social media. What social media? Then,
Speaker 1: I don't think I would have had the courage to
Speaker 1: do a podcast if I realized how vulnerable you are
Speaker 1: in the media that you put yourself out there and
Speaker 1: the criticism. As I said in the Cops, fine, I'm
Speaker 1: not being paid to be liked or listened to. Then
Speaker 1: in the media, and you could get a hundred great
Speaker 1: comments and you get one negative comment, you go, oh shit,
Speaker 1: some of them the negative comments are right, I've got
Speaker 1: to admit, which is quite but you the I've become
Speaker 1: accustomed to it now, like if I polarize people, someone's
Speaker 1: always got an opinion. But that's what I do really
Speaker 1: like about the podcast world. There's so many people. And
Speaker 1: it leads me back to when I left the Cops.
Speaker 1: There was headlines of corrupt cop and all sorts of things,
Speaker 1: and it was hard to take. But now I've got something.
Speaker 1: It's not only the audience deciding what they think of
Speaker 1: the guests. The audience can form their own view about me,
Speaker 1: So you know that's something. And I look at Dylan
Speaker 1: over there in the corner and from made in Katana,
Speaker 1: and Dylan was actually at the pub for the first session,
Speaker 1: and I think the first next couple of sessions, And
Speaker 1: I'm glad I gave up drinking during the during the
Speaker 1: podcast because we started at eight o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: Let's have one or two schooners with the ex cop
Speaker 1: this is season one, who I hadn't seen for five
Speaker 1: or six years.
Speaker 3: Let's have another one.
Speaker 1: And I think Dylan board in the rule no more
Speaker 1: than three because we got bit sloppy then. And then
Speaker 1: after we've finished the podcast at about twelve o'clock, it
Speaker 1: looks like it's lunch time. Who wants a drink? I
Speaker 1: couldn't have kept it up. I only did eight episodes
Speaker 1: of season one.
Speaker 3: I would have been a.
Speaker 1: Dead set alcoholic. I was lasted by two o'clock in
Speaker 1: the afternoon, so that had a short shelf life. So
Speaker 1: I'm glad we stop that.
Speaker 2: I think more podcasts with alcohol would be It would
Speaker 2: be my vibe, Kayla, What skills from because you've kind
Speaker 2: of got these dual career paths where there's I guess
Speaker 2: the more private part of being a sex worker, but
Speaker 2: what you've done on social media is a career in itself.
Speaker 2: Building that level of an online profile is a full
Speaker 2: time job. What kind of skills from that have transferred
Speaker 2: into creating your own podcast?
Speaker 4: I guess just being myself online, you know, sharing my
Speaker 4: story has always been easy for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does it work working with a producer?
Speaker 4: It's different, Like it's I've kind of come into the
Speaker 4: podcast world doing something a little bit different, Like I
Speaker 4: always wanted it to sort of be just at home,
Speaker 4: like in my comfy outfits, like just chilling, like a
Speaker 4: good vibe, rather than being like in studio, you know,
Speaker 4: producers and cameramen. So yeah, it's kind of always been
Speaker 4: a chill vibe, which is good.
Speaker 2: Because I was going to say that you a lot
Speaker 2: of your videos for the pod will be you in say, pajamas,
Speaker 2: no makeup on and talking. Yeah, and that is very
Speaker 2: very different to I feel like podcasts have gone quite
Speaker 2: heavy in terms of video production, and people are in
Speaker 2: fancy studios and the lighting's great.
Speaker 5: And I tried that and I couldn't do it.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I tried it for a couple I was like,
Speaker 5: this is not me. How come?
Speaker 4: I just want to be at home comfy, you know,
Speaker 4: and I'm doing I do a lot of it solo,
Speaker 4: so it just made sense for me to just be
Speaker 4: at home chilling.
Speaker 2: I think it also adds to the intimacy though, as
Speaker 2: a listener and for socials, it stands out like there
Speaker 2: are a lot of very very polished podcasts and that
Speaker 2: kind of adds to what people lean into. And Gary,
Speaker 2: as you said, like the fact that you're releasing an
Speaker 2: unedited conversation where you might be a little bit sloppy
Speaker 2: by the end, that's novel for people for people to hear. Gary,
Speaker 2: do you think podcasting has a unique power when it
Speaker 2: comes to rewriting the narrative? Because, as you said, you
Speaker 2: were at this kind of critical time in going from
Speaker 2: policing to more of a media career. Do you think
Speaker 2: podcasting was really important to lean into because of what
Speaker 2: it offered you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sort of evolved.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize what it presented when I first started.
Speaker 1: But what I'm really proud of eye catch killers because
Speaker 1: when I was in the cops.
Speaker 3: Like you get a.
Speaker 1: Case, you did work the case, hopefully catch the offender,
Speaker 1: and then move on to the next one. So you
Speaker 1: didn't really have time to think about what causes crime.
Speaker 1: Some of the things I'm most proud about because I
Speaker 1: still had a passion for fighting crime like I did
Speaker 1: in the cops. We've a gun and handcuffs, but after leaving,
Speaker 1: where do I put this passion. Now we've fallen into
Speaker 1: a space where we're working with corrective services. We've done
Speaker 1: a series when I went into prison, restorative justice with
Speaker 1: young offenders, indigenous issues. We've had it to the point
Speaker 1: where politicians are asking to come on the podcast, and
Speaker 1: if the cops haven't done the investigation.
Speaker 3: Right, we go. We criticize the cops, and you know,
Speaker 3: it's not just an attack.
Speaker 1: I love policing. But the thing that I'm probably most
Speaker 1: proud of is I've had some notorious criminals on the podcast.
Speaker 1: You know, the gangs, pipes, the real heavy dudes and murderers, escapes,
Speaker 1: that type of thing. When you hear their story where
Speaker 1: they came from, it really it's changed my perspective on
Speaker 1: what crime is all about. And I look at them upbringing,
Speaker 1: some of the upbringings that these people have had. Who
Speaker 1: am I to judge what they've done with their life?
Speaker 1: And I love the story of redemption. So when those
Speaker 1: guys turn their life around, guys and girls we've had
Speaker 1: quite a few from all sorts of crime, it makes
Speaker 1: me feel good that we're doing some good and it's
Speaker 1: putting out a strong message that no matter how low
Speaker 1: your life is, you can actually turn it around. So
Speaker 1: platforms like that really surprise me. But I think you
Speaker 1: can do that in a podcast narrative as distinct from
Speaker 1: the media, because I also work in all aspects of
Speaker 1: the media with television shows, print media, that type of thing,
Speaker 1: and there's a limited space to how you can get
Speaker 1: that message across. But in the podcast world, if we
Speaker 1: want to record for four hours, we'll just sit there
Speaker 1: and record for four hours. If the conversation's flowing, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something people really find fascinating about.
Speaker 2: I catch killers that you find yourself having empathy for
Speaker 2: people you didn't expect to have empathy for. Has that
Speaker 2: been a journey coming out of policing. When you're speaking
Speaker 2: to somebody who's done a very bad thing, and you
Speaker 2: no longer are responsible for you know, you're not trying
Speaker 2: to get them to confess things you're not. The power
Speaker 2: dynamic has shifted a little bit. Has your empathy changed
Speaker 2: for them?
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that I had empathy when I
Speaker 1: was in the cops, and that was I think I
Speaker 1: carried it through. But the empathy spread for the victims,
Speaker 1: the people that've been impacted by the crime, not so
Speaker 1: much of the crooks because the level that I was
Speaker 1: working at, you move on from one job to a
Speaker 1: next and you don't give it much thought. I developed
Speaker 1: relationships with criminal informants and I got to understand a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the criminal world. But with the
Speaker 1: people I have on the podcast, and some of them
Speaker 1: have got no regrets. I asked you, you must feel
Speaker 1: bad about the people you stabbed, and one particular guest said, no,
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm just not going to stab anyone again
Speaker 1: because I don't want to.
Speaker 3: Go back to jail. But there's lots of people I
Speaker 3: want to stab.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that wasn't a type of messaging I was
Speaker 1: looking for, but we'll run with it. But in the
Speaker 1: same regards, people got to hear what that was about
Speaker 1: I'm not there to control the narrative. I want people
Speaker 1: to talk about the real world. That's the real world,
Speaker 1: and I like to create it. When I'm speaking to
Speaker 1: the cops, the victims, or the gangsters and the bad
Speaker 1: guys and women, this is the real world. This is
Speaker 1: what this world is about. So there's no filtering and
Speaker 1: we talk like that and it creates for quite an
Speaker 1: interesting discussion. But I think with both podcasts and you
Speaker 1: talk about the life experience and that there's an honesty
Speaker 1: and authenticity. And when you mentioned like advertising, I think
Speaker 1: they miss the point. Like advertisers go, oh, well, it's
Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. You glorifying crime. We are so
Speaker 1: far from glorifying crime. It's not funny. What we're doing
Speaker 1: is explaining what crime is about, trying to reduce crime
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things, and there's an authenticity of
Speaker 1: the guests that come on, and I think advertisers miss
Speaker 1: that and that rawness and honesty. We all want to
Speaker 1: look into a world that most of us don't get
Speaker 1: to see exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are really connecting with that. When there's a
Speaker 2: lot that's very very surface level and there's so much
Speaker 2: content out there, it's that authenticity that is standing out,
Speaker 2: and that's something with your career and your experiences that
Speaker 2: has always stood out that you're saying, this is what
Speaker 2: I do this like I did this yesterday. This is
Speaker 2: an experience I just had. How do your clients feel
Speaker 2: about the public facing side of what you do?
Speaker 4: It's like, I've definitely lost a few clients because of it,
Speaker 4: because obviously I'm so open and honest, but as well,
Speaker 4: there's a few clients that definitely enjoy me talking about
Speaker 4: them online. You know, they get a little bit of
Speaker 4: a kick out of it. So yeah, it's kind of
Speaker 4: opposite spectrums. Either they are like not for it, they
Speaker 4: leave me, or they want to come back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, need to start charging for talking about people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's clearly like it like a little
Speaker 2: too much. Yeah, has it been good? Because I like,
Speaker 2: sometimes I watch your content and I think, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is so clever because if I was a man
Speaker 2: who wanted a lady friend, this is great discoverability. Like,
Speaker 2: have you found that it helps in that Like does
Speaker 2: being Australia's most famous sex worker help with business? In
Speaker 2: the sense that it must be weird because you get
Speaker 2: comments from people being like I love your authenticity, I
Speaker 2: love your story. Do you then get dms from people
Speaker 2: being like, what time are you available?
Speaker 4: No, I actually have the opposite. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 4: I used to be more busier when I didn't talk
Speaker 4: about it, which is a little bit of a downside
Speaker 4: of it, I guess, But I mean it's created more
Speaker 4: pathways for me, so you know. But yeah, I still
Speaker 4: get the odds.
Speaker 5: Your client that wants to have fun, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2: And wants and is happy to play, and it's.
Speaker 5: Happy to be out there and open about it. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm interested in this from a personal perspective because on
Speaker 2: my podcast The Pylon, I speak to people who have
Speaker 2: had their reputations attacked, sometimes destroyed, who have had to
Speaker 2: deal with the annihilation of their character online. Both of
Speaker 2: you have, in different ways experienced attacks on your reputation online.
Speaker 2: With podcasting, there can be a lot of a lot
Speaker 2: of feedback that you get. Gary, do you read reviews?
Speaker 1: I used to, and I know the narrative and anyone
Speaker 1: that's in this area don't worry about the reviews, but
Speaker 1: I would. I love reading the good ones. Well it's great,
Speaker 1: then there's one fuck, So yeah, I do. But it's
Speaker 1: becoming less and less impact. And I don't read them
Speaker 1: morbile time. And if someone you know the name of
Speaker 1: the podcast Pylon. If someone makes a negative comment, then
Speaker 1: ten other people making the comment. And I think, and
Speaker 1: this was a good lesson for me, my kids and
Speaker 1: they're not kids now, they're adults. But there was someone
Speaker 1: that really attacked me. It was just spiteful or whatever.
Speaker 1: And I go have a look at this, and they
Speaker 1: did their little research on who this knucklehead is and gone,
Speaker 1: this is the person you're worried about.
Speaker 3: Gone, you're kidding. Just a drop kick.
Speaker 6: But yeah, but yeah, and you know, we all learn
Speaker 6: like sometimes the comments are legitimate, and Dylan can attest
Speaker 6: to this, and Dell, I.
Speaker 1: Tell you a skill in podcasting in the interview room.
Speaker 1: If I'm speaking to someone, I'm sitting there asking a question,
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the response. When they're talking, I'm encouraging
Speaker 1: him someone that yeah yeah, and then yeah yeah. A
Speaker 1: couple of I don't want the facts and figures to
Speaker 1: come out, Dylan, but a couple of the early podcasts
Speaker 1: before and I didn't even know what the producer was.
Speaker 3: It was just.
Speaker 1: Where we were doing things. I would say, yes, I
Speaker 1: reckon two hundred thousand times.
Speaker 5: Me would like, like exaggeration.
Speaker 1: So it got to the point where I would draw
Speaker 1: a big D on my hands. So when idiot was
Speaker 1: starting to go, yeah, yeah, what's that end doing?
Speaker 3: All right, keep your mouth shut. I've I've got better
Speaker 3: at it.
Speaker 1: But I find when I'm really comfortable with someone and
Speaker 1: the barriers are breaking down, you wait to go out
Speaker 1: next time you're talking to a friend and just be
Speaker 1: mindful how many times you go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And once you notice it.
Speaker 3: You were saying, like time when I watched.
Speaker 4: Myself, like why did I do that?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 3: You just cream.
Speaker 4: But it's because you're like it's like you're having a
Speaker 4: conversation with your friends, so you're just natural and that's
Speaker 4: how you naturally speak.
Speaker 5: But with podcasting, it's like a whole different language that
Speaker 5: you have to learn. And your producer will yeah, but
Speaker 5: that's a good idea.
Speaker 3: I might have to use that for me.
Speaker 2: Oh I'm going to do that hat because yeah, my
Speaker 2: producer is like, I can't cut it out because it'll
Speaker 2: be that the other person's talking a little bit while
Speaker 2: I'm saying it. So she's like, there's no way to
Speaker 2: edit this. You're just annoying, and I'm like, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. It's it is very Yet when you
Speaker 2: listen back, you're like, oh god, Kayla. Do you read
Speaker 2: podcast reviews?
Speaker 3: Ah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes I think it's good to read, like not
Speaker 4: all the time obviously because you'll get hung up on it,
Speaker 4: but it's good to read negative comments in a way
Speaker 4: because it's like, oh, Okay, that's how I learned that
Speaker 4: I was saying, like too much, you know, like you
Speaker 4: learn it so you can improve, I guess in a way.
Speaker 2: Ah, there's certain things that you read that podcast reviews
Speaker 2: or on TikTok that do get to you, because I
Speaker 2: find there are certain things that I'm like yeah, fair,
Speaker 2: and other things that I'm like, ooh, if I read
Speaker 2: that every day, I just go in a hole and quit.
Speaker 4: I think it's when people talk about my kids or
Speaker 4: like how I am as a mother just because I
Speaker 4: don't show them online doesn't mean you know, the living
Speaker 4: in a different home with someone else, like they're very
Speaker 4: much around, Like I just don't show them online. And
Speaker 4: I think people take that as like, oh, she must
Speaker 4: be a bad mother, she must you know, spend no
Speaker 4: time with her kids and you know, so, yeah, there's
Speaker 4: little comments like that that I have to really ignore
Speaker 4: because otherwise I'll get really heated. But yeah, most of
Speaker 4: the time, I'm like, h it doesn't phaze me because
Speaker 4: I feel like I've lived a whole life before I
Speaker 4: started this, So now it's kind of like you can
Speaker 4: say what you want to me, Like, I don't really care.
Speaker 2: You know, how about the stigma against sex work. Do
Speaker 2: you feel like you get faced with that.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, Like, it's definitely come a long way,
Speaker 4: like in the last ten years, like like just talking
Speaker 4: about sex work has been huge for sex work, So
Speaker 4: I think of anything like, we're progressing very well.
Speaker 1: So hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Whant they get
Speaker 1: more out of Ketch Killers? Then you should head over
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can
Speaker 1: watch every episode of Ketch Killers. Just search for I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching.
Speaker 3: Today.
Speaker 2: You said something interesting on I think it was on
Speaker 2: TikTok about how in the early days you used to
Speaker 2: like when I first started following you, you used to
Speaker 2: like count your money and that was it was there
Speaker 2: was something really relaxing about watching.
Speaker 5: You count cash.
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't think cash. Yeah, you just
Speaker 2: had like all these dollar bills and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, get it. But you don't do that anymore. No,
Speaker 2: and you've talked about why why is that?
Speaker 4: I guess for me, like as my platform grew, I
Speaker 4: had to really like think about, you know, being a
Speaker 4: role model and what I was putting out there online.
Speaker 4: So just with you know, young people scrolling through TikTok,
Speaker 4: they might see my money count videos and be like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, she makes so much money online, but
Speaker 4: they're not realized like what I actually had to do
Speaker 4: to get that money.
Speaker 5: So I guess I just wanted to kind of limit,
Speaker 5: you know what.
Speaker 4: Like I was still putting out the downsides of the industry,
Speaker 4: but not everyone sits and scrolls through every video.
Speaker 5: So it was just being more.
Speaker 4: Mindful, like as my page grew, like hey, maybe not
Speaker 4: do that. And also just personal safety and safety of
Speaker 4: other sex workers. I felt like, you know, probably don't
Speaker 4: want everyone knowing that we're carrying a bunch of cash around.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. That's the thing about creating content online,
Speaker 2: creating podcasts, you are learning in real.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just being a adaptive you know, if
Speaker 4: something doesn't work or if you get criticism from something
Speaker 4: like you know, adapting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you do. You do have to kind of
Speaker 2: do that in public and that can be It's different
Speaker 2: to other kinds of work where you get feedback hopefully
Speaker 2: in a more private environment and you can lick your
Speaker 2: wounds and move on.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: How do you I guess when you are doing storytime
Speaker 2: with Kayla Jaide, how do you kind of navigate what
Speaker 2: is really for podcasting versus what's for anything else? Like
Speaker 2: there is there anything when you look at the future
Speaker 2: of story time, what's the trajectory you see it going
Speaker 2: in and what's kind of the niche and the like
Speaker 2: the little space you want to carve out for this
Speaker 2: particular show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess just you know, destigmatizing sex work in
Speaker 4: a way, you know, showing people that we are real
Speaker 4: people and you know, we're not just objects that are
Speaker 4: for sex. Like, we have a lot to talk about
Speaker 4: and you know, a lot of information. So just carving
Speaker 4: out that lane a little bit.
Speaker 2: And Gary for I catch Killers, where do you see
Speaker 2: it going? Where do you see the future of the show.
Speaker 3: I'd like to like broaden it.
Speaker 1: Like the main theme is crime and will always come
Speaker 1: come back to crime, but sometimes it gets so heavy,
Speaker 1: like we've had bad guy victims, this.
Speaker 3: Police talking horrible, horrible crimes.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I say, we just got to have fun and
Speaker 1: so I get you know, I might get a comedian on.
Speaker 1: The comedian might be have a drug issue in the
Speaker 1: past or different things, and just like lightening it up.
Speaker 1: We've had quite a few sex workers on the show
Speaker 1: and we sit down and we have a good fun
Speaker 1: conversation and people enjoy that, and so yeah, we're broadening
Speaker 1: it out. And anyone with an interesting story, that's what
Speaker 1: maytivates me in the podcast. If there's someone that's got
Speaker 1: an interesting story, I love to hear their stories. So
Speaker 1: we'll still stay true to crime, but we'll branch out
Speaker 1: a little bit more and explore the world and people
Speaker 1: who have got interesting stories, because that's sometimes I have
Speaker 1: guests on that haven't got the profile and I'm thinking, Oh,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen here, And I'm just blown away
Speaker 1: by this person's story just the way they deliver their story.
Speaker 1: And it might be something that we know about, but
Speaker 1: it's something that's deeply personal. That's unique to them, and
Speaker 1: I find that fascinating and giving the audience the respect
Speaker 1: that they can form their own views. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to judge anyone for what they've done in their life,
Speaker 1: just like I don't want to be judged for what
Speaker 1: I've done in my life. And I heard you say that,
Speaker 1: you know, with the social media and all that, Well,
Speaker 1: this is who I am, and that's the sort of
Speaker 1: attitude I've got. If you don't like me, you don't
Speaker 1: like me. I can't help that. But I know who
Speaker 1: I am, and I think you probably go through the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why podcasting is such a special
Speaker 2: space to be in because people are opting in. It's
Speaker 2: not it's different to socials in that, you know, Kaylor,
Speaker 2: you might end up every now and then on the
Speaker 2: wrong side of TikTok, where you're like, Okay, who are
Speaker 2: these people? I don't know how I ended up in
Speaker 2: your fore page? Whereas with podcasting people, I always think
Speaker 2: no one hate listens to a podcast. If people are
Speaker 2: listening to Gary Jublin, it's because they bloody love this
Speaker 2: show and they want to hear what he has to say.
Speaker 2: If people are listening to Kayla Jake, people just don't
Speaker 2: have time to like well. But then sometimes you read
Speaker 2: the reviews and you're like, oh, wow, no they do.
Speaker 2: But for the most part, and I think that's also
Speaker 2: why people feel safer like guests, because it's far less
Speaker 2: likely that there is going to be a snippet of
Speaker 2: what they say that ends up in the daily mail,
Speaker 2: because it's bloody hard to sit there and transcribe a
Speaker 2: whole podcast interview as opposed to, you know, a piece
Speaker 2: in the paper where there might just be a quote.
Speaker 2: I want to know, Kayla, what is the biggest lesson
Speaker 2: you've learnt from podcasting? And it has been a short
Speaker 2: time for you, but I imagine it's been a very
Speaker 2: steep learning curve and a quick trajectory because the growth
Speaker 2: has been so phenomenal. But what's the biggest learning.
Speaker 4: Just always having like a space that's outside of the
Speaker 4: online life, you know, that you can retreat to if
Speaker 4: it does get too much. Just having that little, you know,
Speaker 4: space where it's whether it's a hobby or like family
Speaker 4: or friends that you can just go to if you
Speaker 4: need to.
Speaker 2: That's really that's really clever, And it's also kind of
Speaker 2: future proofing because you know how every now and then
Speaker 2: there'll be a rumor that they're like they're going to
Speaker 2: shut down TikTok, and you're like, well, I have a
Speaker 2: really popular podcast, so it doesn't matter so much. Gary,
Speaker 2: what have you learned from podcasting?
Speaker 1: I've probably learned the importance of storytelling And that sounds
Speaker 1: a bit dramatic, but letting people tell their stories. I
Speaker 1: think the world's an interesting place. And you know, I've
Speaker 1: had some people that have had Tom Carroll, the two
Speaker 1: times World surfing champion, on the podcast, I said I
Speaker 1: had pictures in my bedroom when I was growing up
Speaker 1: as a teenager, like so many interesting stories, and I
Speaker 1: just love being able to give people a platform to
Speaker 1: tell their story and also educate people through that whether
Speaker 1: they buy into it or not about Okay, let's not
Speaker 1: judge every person that's in jail as a bad person.
Speaker 1: Let's look at what got them there and things that happened.
Speaker 1: And when we talk crime, the politicians might be dramatic
Speaker 1: about cutting down on crime, going hard on crime, we'll
Speaker 1: have discussions about is that the right way to do
Speaker 1: it or is there other alternatives, you know, different forms
Speaker 1: of imprisonment, that type of thing. So Yeah, storytelling if
Speaker 1: it all came down to that, Because sometimes I wake
Speaker 1: up and think, what's the purpose of my day. If
Speaker 1: I'm preparing for a podcast, I think, well, there's an
Speaker 1: important story to be told and people might learn from
Speaker 1: because I don't think there's a guess that I've had
Speaker 1: on the podcast that I haven't walked away a little
Speaker 1: bit wiser. Yeah, picked up something or learned something from them.
Speaker 1: I think that's important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think in both of your cases, there's
Speaker 2: so much psychological research about how the antidote to stigma,
Speaker 2: the thing that builds empathy, the thing that builds connection,
Speaker 2: is just exposure to different kinds of people. Like so
Speaker 2: much of our prejudice is because we're simply we're simply
Speaker 2: not hearing or connecting with the kinds of people that
Speaker 2: might be outside our circle. And both of you offer
Speaker 2: these behind the scenes windows into that. Like, Kayla, there
Speaker 2: are probably a lot of people who have never met
Speaker 2: a sex worker and they get to have this emotional
Speaker 2: connection with you and they're like, hold on, I really
Speaker 2: like this person. I respect this person that goes against
Speaker 2: all my prejudices. And Gary By, you know, all the
Speaker 2: people you're interviewing as well as being a former copy yourself,
Speaker 2: and people might have stigma about that. They go, oh,
Speaker 2: I really like this guy. It seems really nice. He
Speaker 2: doesn't seem scary. I thought I was meant to be
Speaker 2: scared of police.
Speaker 3: You are.
Speaker 2: I'd like to be interviewed by Gary. I think I
Speaker 2: think we'd be friends. I wanted to open up for
Speaker 2: the last few minutes for any questions that anyone has
Speaker 2: for these guys, or about podcasting or anything. We've even
Speaker 2: got a mic.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Hi, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: My question is probably for you Gary, and maybe even
Speaker 1: for yourself, Claire.
Speaker 8: What do you do to prepare before you interview someone?
Speaker 1: And how long? I without giving the way trade secrets.
Speaker 1: I read a lot of books, Like if someone's got
Speaker 1: a book out, I'll read the book and then I
Speaker 1: really knuckle down closest to the time when I know
Speaker 1: the podcast, I will script a framework in the way
Speaker 1: I think the podcast should run. Sometimes the easiest podcast
Speaker 1: where a put my notes down don't have to refer
Speaker 1: to the one because it just flows.
Speaker 3: But I have that as a safeguard.
Speaker 1: If I get in there and I ask a question
Speaker 1: and I say to Kayla, Hi, do you want to
Speaker 1: talk about your career and she goes no, and then Okay,
Speaker 1: well you've got to have a fallback, So I have
Speaker 1: a list there. I color cod that as stupid as
Speaker 1: it sounds. It's a little bit of type of preparation
Speaker 1: that I would do before I go into interview at
Speaker 1: a suspect, but just the preparation, have all the information
Speaker 1: in there. But I've only I've got limited capacity, so
Speaker 1: I tend to have a guest and then I'm into
Speaker 1: my next guest and I can't remember who I did
Speaker 1: the week before. So yeah, that's the prep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've stressed me out because I have two
Speaker 2: interviews back to back tomorrow morning that I haven't started
Speaker 2: prepping for, but I will be prepping so late tonight.
Speaker 2: You have no idea. And like listening, I find even
Speaker 2: with these guys, if you're interviewing someone for a podcast,
Speaker 2: listening to previous podcast interviews is so good because not
Speaker 2: only do you just I really absorb information in an
Speaker 2: audio format, but you just get a vibe of who
Speaker 2: they are, and then when you go into a room,
Speaker 2: you feel like you already know them. Like with both
Speaker 2: of you, I'm like I know you guys, like you're
Speaker 2: not strangers, Kayla. You've been interviewing people as well, and
Speaker 2: that is a totally new thing. But it's really really new. Yeah,
Speaker 2: how are you going about it?
Speaker 5: I'm going all right, I'm going all right.
Speaker 4: I had to learn to stop butting in because my
Speaker 4: ADHD I just want to like, That's how I connect
Speaker 4: with people, is they just like, oh my god, you
Speaker 4: like this too, let's talk about it. But I guess
Speaker 4: in an audio format that's not exactly nice to listen to.
Speaker 5: So I had to.
Speaker 4: Really like just calm down and like really listen to what,
Speaker 4: you know, the persons saying.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, that restraint is the hardest thing because
Speaker 2: you get really excited.
Speaker 5: I just want to say this one thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone will mention something halfway through a sentence and
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't want to, but I really need
Speaker 2: to know what I'm thinking.
Speaker 4: About it, and I can't stop thinking about it until.
Speaker 1: Can I just add Sometimes the criticism is that, oh,
Speaker 1: you're telling your stories, but this is what people don't understand.
Speaker 1: These are the ones I want to respond back to.
Speaker 1: If I just sat there and asked a series of
Speaker 1: questions and didn't have a conversation the conversation doesn't fly,
Speaker 1: and you sometimes and if you haven't, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: will be and you would have been criticized. Oh you're
Speaker 1: making the podcast about yourself. That's how you get a
Speaker 1: conversation flowing, That's how it rolls on. And they're the
Speaker 1: ones I want to respond to. I just don't know
Speaker 1: how to respond on social media, but.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, no response, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 8: My question was obviously for all of you. Your podcast
Speaker 8: concepts are such great concepts, but how do you know
Speaker 8: each episode's going to land in such a crowded space,
Speaker 8: like do you know fim.
Speaker 5: Land with the audience?
Speaker 2: Even if your last one did, how do you know
Speaker 2: the next one?
Speaker 7: Well?
Speaker 5: Yeah, Gary, Joanna.
Speaker 3: Look, I think that you build up the audience like that.
Speaker 3: That helps.
Speaker 1: It's a loyalty to the audience. And I've been confused
Speaker 1: sometimes when I've had big overseas guests, like really these
Speaker 1: are you know Donny Brasca, the real Donnie Brasca and
Speaker 1: have him on the podcast. I'm thinking everyone's going to
Speaker 1: be interested in this. We get the listeners, but I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of local content. And sometimes I
Speaker 1: have guests overseas guests so that the audience don't buy
Speaker 1: into it as much because they don't relate. And then
Speaker 1: you get others that you think, oh, that's not going
Speaker 1: to be really interesting, and they just jump on it.
Speaker 1: So you build up the listeners, you stay true, you
Speaker 1: try things, and sometimes you take a risk and it
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, other times it does.
Speaker 4: That's totally It's like my online content, like, you know,
Speaker 4: some videos will go viral that I completely didn't think
Speaker 4: we're going to go viral. So I think it's just
Speaker 4: staying true to yourself and you know what you want
Speaker 4: to talk about, and your followers will listen to.
Speaker 2: What's been the most popular episode of your podcast so far, Kayler?
Speaker 2: Is it the launch where you talked about.
Speaker 5: I think family.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I try not to look at like numbers,
Speaker 4: but I think that was one of the bigger ones.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that and Peggy su.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was I was gonna say that Peggy was
Speaker 2: a RAS later.
Speaker 5: So yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like not an exact science though, and that's what's
Speaker 2: so sometimes frustrating.
Speaker 5: I'm sure you guys mind it as well.
Speaker 2: You're like I know that this is this and then
Speaker 2: it's like oh yeah, and it's like no, people are
Speaker 2: really weird with their interests and and yeah, you'll have
Speaker 2: a guess that you just think, oh my gosh, this
Speaker 2: is such a huge get and people aren't as invested.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's someone that you know doesn't have the profile,
Speaker 2: but there's just something really curious about them that people
Speaker 2: lean into. But there's also like so much that goes
Speaker 2: into I'm sure Gary you've mastered the art of like
Speaker 2: the title of an episode and the shown like all
Speaker 2: of this stuff that you kind of build up that
Speaker 2: knowledge over time.
Speaker 5: Any other questions, This is a question for the both
Speaker 5: of you.
Speaker 9: Obviously you'll reach out to connections and people that you
Speaker 9: know that you want to appear on the show, and
Speaker 9: then I'm sure you also get people on the other
Speaker 9: end who are expressing interest. Have either of you ever
Speaker 9: said no to a guest and if you can share why.
Speaker 2: That's such a good question, Kayla, do you want to go?
Speaker 2: I imagine you've had quite a few people with Yeah, I.
Speaker 5: Definitely have had people.
Speaker 4: And then I guess as well, like brand deals and
Speaker 4: things that will want to work on the podcast that
Speaker 4: I don't fully align with, And it's just that thing
Speaker 4: just staying true to yourself because obviously you're not going
Speaker 4: to feel as comfortable having someone that you don't really
Speaker 4: get along with, like you always try and make sure
Speaker 4: I have some sort of connection or alignment with like
Speaker 4: a brand or whatever.
Speaker 5: Before I work with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we probably have time. But one more quick question.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 7: This has been incredible. Thank you so much. I'm bella
Speaker 7: co founder of dian. We have a podcast community inside PLATF.
Speaker 5: I was really curious how you.
Speaker 7: Approach fandom and your community and engaging with them beyond
Speaker 7: the episode. I think you've all done such an incredible
Speaker 7: job of building these loyal listener bases that really resonates
Speaker 7: your stories. How do you yet approach that connection beyond
Speaker 7: the episode?
Speaker 2: Gary, do you like your community of listeners? How do
Speaker 2: you engage with them?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Do you have events?
Speaker 1: Do you do like we did a live shower, I
Speaker 1: did a live tour that wasn't necessarily caught up with
Speaker 1: the podcast, but we did a live around the country,
Speaker 1: did a live tour. The best way I can do
Speaker 1: it is that people will reach out, and amazingly how
Speaker 1: they reach out, I try to respond unless they are
Speaker 1: a complete another on different platforms that it's not hard
Speaker 1: to find my email or a month phone numbers out there.
Speaker 3: But the people in.
Speaker 1: The street, the day to day people in the street,
Speaker 1: they're the ones that if they say hi, we listen
Speaker 1: to your podcast, I spend five minutes talking to and whatever,
Speaker 1: and I think that's important. I bumped into someone I
Speaker 1: won't mention his name, but I spoke to him just
Speaker 1: at the railway station. He's walking his dog and he
Speaker 1: posted something on social media and Nina, one of the producers, said, oh,
Speaker 1: you met such and such, and I've gone, who's that? Oh,
Speaker 1: he's posted a rock star And then I didn't didn't realize,
Speaker 1: but it ended up at the backstage at then More
Speaker 1: Theater when they were playing at sold out thing. But yeah,
Speaker 1: just being nice to people, I think is the way
Speaker 1: I tried to do it. You're approachable, it's everyone sharing
Speaker 1: their stories and that's important.
Speaker 4: Totally, and just yeah, being engaging in the comments, like
Speaker 4: responding to people like I think, like the whole reason
Speaker 4: why I started my TikTok was just to connect with people.
Speaker 4: So it really came easy to me to like connect
Speaker 4: with my fans and then yeah, I love seeing them
Speaker 4: out in public and they come up to me.
Speaker 5: It's like so sweet.
Speaker 2: What happens if somebody comes up to you in public
Speaker 2: and you're with your family.
Speaker 5: I've always been.
Speaker 4: Curious, like because like ninety percent of my following is female, Like,
Speaker 4: they are very respectful, Like I will see a lot
Speaker 4: of people just like way from a distance or be
Speaker 4: like I just wanted to say hi, but I didn't
Speaker 4: want to come up because so, yeah, I think just
Speaker 4: being respectful and obviously you know, being mindful that there's
Speaker 4: children around. But yeah, everyone's been so amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think both of you have such such
Speaker 2: dedicated audiences where they feel that emotional connection with you,
Speaker 2: which is a testament to your authenticity, which is exactly
Speaker 2: what can reshape narratives, which is what this was about.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time today. You're
Speaker 2: both so brilliant, and thank you for being here, and
Speaker 2: thank you for those questions. They were great.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you guy.