WEBVTT - A homicide detective and sex worker walk into a podcast: SXSW Sydney Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.600 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This episode 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.560 was recorded live at the twenty twenty five South By 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:59.200 Southwest Conference at the Sydney International Convention Center. I was 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:02.000 on a panel with Kayla Jade, who's one of Australia's 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.520 most well known sex workers. The session was hosted by 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.759 journalists Claire Stevens. Now, you might wonder what we had 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.760 to talk about a sex worker and a former cop. Well, 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.960 it was a lot of fun because besides being a 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.399 sex worker, Kayla also hosts podcasts, and that's what we 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.840 talked about. We discussed changing face of media and the 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.600 role that podcast is playing keeping people informed. I really 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.520 enjoyed the chat and I think you will too. 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.479 Hi, I'm Claire Stephens. Thank you for joining us at 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.040 show Notes for our session flip the script how podcasts 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.679 can reshape the narrative. Before we begin, I want to 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.160 acknowledge the Gadigal people of the or Nation whose land 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.000 we are gathering on today. Spoken word and storytelling is 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.960 such a valuable part of First Nations culture and I 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.960 feel very privileged to be able to embrace these practices 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.840 through storytelling and podcasts. Today I am joined by two 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.080 very different people who have you podcasting to reshape two 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.680 very different kinds of narratives. You might be wondering what 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.920 Australia's most famous homicide detective and Australia's most famous sex 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.320 worker have in common, but there is a surprising amount 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.880 of common ground here. I want to start by introducing 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.600 Gary Jublin, the host of one of the most listened 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.800 to podcasts in the country, I Catch Killers. Jubilin sits 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:28.280 across from cops, criminals, addicts, victims, lawyers and more to 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.440 hear their stories, and he explores the ideas of good 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:36.520 and evil, redemption, suffering, joy and tragedy. He is particularly 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.120 qualified to do this after a thirty four year policing 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:44.800 career where he led investigations into the disappearance of William 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.160 Tyrrel as well as the serial killing of three Indigenous 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.960 children in Bauerville. He also run the crime scene following 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.760 the Link Cafe siege. Then it's my pleasure to introduce 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.680 Kayla Jaide, the host of story Time by Kayla Jade, 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:02.240 which hit one millions streams in its first month. Anyone 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.240 who has ever had anything to do with podcasting knows 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.239 how absurdly impressive that is. She is a sex worker, 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.240 a storyteller, and a viral creator with two point three 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.480 million followers on TikTok and on Storytime, Kayla char's uncensored stories, 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:21.679 vulnerable chats, celebrity interviews, and a chance to ask her anything. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.000 Nothing is off limits as she records from home and 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.280 talks about everything from money to mental health, to body 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.760 image and beauty standards. Very briefly, I'm Clare Stevens I'm 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.880 the host of The Pylon, a podcast that interviews people 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.400 who have been at the center of online outrage, and 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.880 that is actually where I want to start. Gary, you 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:48.160 left the police force in twenty nineteen after being accused 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.600 of a legally recording a suspect in the William Tyrell investigation. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.400 I can imagine that was a really tumultuous time personally 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:02.920 and professionally. Yet you turn into podcasting not too long afterwards. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.320 Why was it podcasting you turned to out of every 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.040 possible career that you could have gone to. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.080 Well with my criminal conviction, I couldn't be a private investigator. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.440 But anyway, that's a separate story, and I still deny 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.240 the allegation. A lot of people reached out to me 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.680 I had I was fortunate or unfortunate, however you look 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:26.400 at it. In the police, I worked a lot of 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:29.440 high profile jobs. So when people found out that I 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.800 was leaving the police, or even before I left the police, 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.960 people in the media were reaching out out to me 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:40.200 a variety of offers and shows and different things. And 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.479 then with news Corp. Part of it was to write 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.919 write articles for the papers, but the other thing was 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.720 to do a podcast, and I liked the podcast because 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.240 I had a lot of work with TV shows like 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.120 four Corners, sixty Minutes, that type of thing, and I'm 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.320 very mindful that when you're being quoted in the media, 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.000 when you've got a camera on you for eight hours 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.520 and then they're only looking for a minute here or 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:07.279 a minute there, how it can be confusing. Podcasting I 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:09.000 had a slight idea. 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:09.320 What it was. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.839 I'd listened to podcasts and that, but it just felt 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.240 like an area that I could work in that I 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.760 had some degree of control. Because when your a cop 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:22.040 as long as I was, and then you're charged and 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.560 you're on the front page of the paper, your integrity 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.320 is important. And I thought I could still maintain my 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.400 integrity if I had control. And I felt that in 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.640 the podcast world, I had that little bit of control. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.320 And Kayla, you also were in a bit of a 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.000 tumultuous time in that there was all this stuff going 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.560 on online about your personal life and your family, and 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.960 you could have responded on TikTok, you could have responded 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.920 in many different forums, and yet you responded with podcasting. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:55.839 Why was that? 0:05:57.040 --> 0:05:59.840 I mean, it just made sense because you know, everything 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:02.600 came out all at once and I was launching this podcast, 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.440 and I was like, how can I not talk about this? 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:06.880 You know, it's such a big thing. But that's just 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:08.080 the way of the internet. You know. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.240 It's like, when you're putting yourself out there online, you're 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.360 going to expect some sort of like backlash from people 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:16.480 or people trying. 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:17.479 To take things too far. 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:20.479 So yeah, I just wanted to share my side of 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.599 the story, like in an depth way. Obviously, going on podcasts, 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.840 it's much longer form content, so it's certainly so much 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.720 you can share on TikTok, So yeah, it was made 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:33.320 sense to do it that way. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.320 Do you think there is the opportunity because you were 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.320 talking about something so sensitive, which was your kids, and 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.000 people had been going through and trying to unearth details 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.719 which must have been really scary, And the fact that 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.200 you did it via podcasting, do you think there was 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.680 more of an intimacy with the listener where you like 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.880 you knew that it was being listened to in good faith. 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.400 Yeah, I think so I just put all my all 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.359 out there, you know, there any edits or anything. I 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.560 just wanted to tell my side of the story. So yeah, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:05.640 it made sense doing it. 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.920 That way, and clearly people really really wanted to know 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:13.880 and wanted to know in that long form format. I 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.640 think a lot of people think that they can just 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.520 pick up a microphone and have a successful podcast. 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:23.440 I want to know what it. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:28.000 Took to become successful and good at this. So Gary, 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:32.040 when you first started, did you have media training? Like? 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:36.080 How did you how did you go from a make 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:37.520 such a radical career jump. 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.840 I didn't have any media training, but I was comfortable 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.920 speaking to the media with the high profile jobs I had, 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.520 so I had an understanding of media as such. But 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.800 in terms of training, what was suggested for my first 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.760 episode of the podcast, episode one of my catch Killers 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.720 was how about you get your old workmate Jason Eavers, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.240 who I worked in homicide with for ten years, and 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.800 we'll put you in a pub and we'll fly him 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.800 down to Sydney and we'll give you some drinks and 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:08.280 we're going to. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.520 Record that conversation. Let's see how it goes. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:15.680 And literally that was the first episode of eye catch Killers. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.320 Interesting in the topic that we're talking about today too, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.720 Like when I provided that unedited version that went for 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.880 about two and a half hours, the suggestion was from 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:31.280 the media, the more traditional thinking media let's cut it down. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.520 Let's talk about when you guys were running that case 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:36.559 or when you turned up at that crime scene. 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.040 And I was fortunate that it was clear. Harvey. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.480 I think that got a good reputation in the media world. 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.480 She pushed back on it and said, no, let's run it. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.120 This is what long form conversation is about. We laughed, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.800 we turned on each other, we joked about things, but 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.480 you've got a sense, and it created an environment like 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.880 it was a fly on the wall, so people listening 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.000 to it could understand who Jason than I were and 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.719 what our backstory was in that long form conversation. So 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:10.400 no training, I prepare for an interview like I prepare 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.679 for an interview if I'm interviewing a bad guy. And 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.400 that was what I was paid to do to get 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.160 people to confess to crimes. So I don't want to 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.280 I don't ever have a guess on the podcast unless 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.360 I declare this is what I'm going to do. I 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.959 always want to protect the guests because they're vulnerable. We're 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:31.160 talking about very emotional, deep issues and personal details. So 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.160 I always say I will protect you. And like sometimes 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.960 I've got bikes on and they're saying bad things about 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.920 another rival biking gang, and mate, we've got to wind 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.000 that in a little bit because otherwise we might start 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.520 a biking walk. Yeah, I'm not joking. I've had many 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.720 a heated discussion late at night going okay, we'll do this, 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.319 do that. But they're the things that you've got to 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.360 try and try and protect your guests. So it's not 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:00.720 about that gotcha moment. It's more about letting the listener 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.880 form their own views about the person you're speaking to. 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:08.480 I think, yeah, leaving it unedited or obviously maybe cutting 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.760 the biker gangs, but leaving a lot of it in. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.360 It is so important for the listener to have all 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.600 the context of your dynamic with somebody and of the 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:21.840 tone of it that you don't get a tone when 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:26.120 you read something that's just written, and even on a 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.320 platform like TikTok, when things can be you know, stitched, 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.400 or people can take a tiny bit of what you've 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:39.160 said and ignore the context that might actually change the narrative. Kaylor, 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.320 what did it actually take behind the scenes to make 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.120 your podcast? Because what was kind of what did you 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.440 have to stretch in terms of skills, what did you 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.720 have to learn? What would people not know about what 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:53.480 it actually took. 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.200 Yeah, it was like learning a new language in a way, 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.120 because you know, I was so used to short form 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.440 content and then going to long form it was like 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:03.800 a whole different thing. Like I had just learned to 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.720 stop butting in in front of people and like you know, so, yeah, 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.040 it's definitely a skill in itself, and there's been a 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.040 lot of learning curves. 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.839 But I'm loving the process, you know, I'm enjoying it. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:16.760 And do you. 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:22.000 Use what goes off on TikTok to inform the decisions 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:23.359 you make for the podcast? 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.480 Not necessarily like in sometimes sometimes I'll just, like, you know, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.800 elaborate more on a story, like say if because you 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.920 know on TikTok you probably want like a couple. 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:34.440 Of minutes max. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.640 But in the longer form content I could just elaborate 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.880 more and go into detail. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.640 I speaking of detail, I needed to touch on Peggy Sue. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.120 So there may be people I don't know, maybe Gary, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.560 who doesn't know the Peggy Sue story. Kayla, could you 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.640 for anyone who doesn't know, could you just give a 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.439 little bit of a summary of the Peggy su dominum. 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.160 Yes, yes, so he's an old client of mine who 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.200 I don't know how we can get on him. So 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.280 obviously I see clients for work, and he was one 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.320 of my clients that likes to do little things in 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.240 the behind region. And yeah, obviously you know taken some 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.880 decent sized members up there, and yeah, we're just chat 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.280 about it on my TikTok and apparently people they listening 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:25.600 to it. 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.640 So and there are a lot of theories about who 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.000 Peggy su is, and one in particular that I won't 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:33.440 say because I don't know if I can say it 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.200 legally in this room. 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:35.959 I don't know if I can. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.840 Who knows what we can Actually Gary probably knows what 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:41.760 we can say legally. He'll arrest us. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.080 I'm not going to say. I think I don't want 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:43.880 to get the call the guest. 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:50.559 But you did an episode about Peggy Su on the podcast. 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:54.560 What could you say in that format that was different 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.800 to TikTok And why do you think people were going 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:01.240 there as opposed to the shorter kind of narrative that 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:02.079 was happening elsewhere. 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.400 Yeah, well, I guess he was on the TikTok, Like 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.600 we didn't specifically see him, but he was there answering questions. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.600 I did like a Q and A on my Instagram, like, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.240 what do you want to talk to Peggy Sew about? 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.080 And then I just asked him a bunch of questions 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.160 and yeah, it's just there's been a lot of speculation 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.040 on who it is, but I can either confirm or deny. 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.320 I love it if you if you want to know 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.200 what that speculation is, go on TikTok. It's so fun. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.920 Both of you have really stood out in a crowded 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:39.079 podcast landscape, and my theory is that it's because both 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.520 of you bring lived experience and a certain depth to 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:49.280 this space that other creators might not so Gary. For example, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.599 there are a lot of there are a lot of 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:57.360 true crime podcasts an insane amount, and there are journalists interviewing, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.000 there are amateurs, there are there are comedians doing true 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:06.559 crime podcasts. But there's something very, very different about a 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:13.240 crime podcast that is led by a former detective. What 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.640 do you think it is that you're able to offer 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:17.920 that other people can't. 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.960 Well, I suppose I'd be a slave learner if I 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.520 spent twenty years investigating homicide and not sort of picking 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.880 up on things. I can speak the language, I can 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:32.800 speak the language of the detectives. If I've got police officers, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.360 I understand the world. They understand the culture. I also 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.360 with the bad guys, I can speak their language. That 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.160 was half the time was spent with cops, half the 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:43.360 time spent with bad guys. 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:44.640 They're the people that you chase. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.160 They understood where I was coming from, and I understood 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.400 where they were coming from. And then with the victims, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.680 I don't think unless you see the pain that's associated 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.920 with the people dealing with murder. And quite often I'd 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.120 meet these people by knocking on the door and informing 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.040 them that their loved one has been killed, and it 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.400 sticks with you that emotion. So when I'm speaking two 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.320 victims of crime, which we have a lot on, they 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:13.560 understand that. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.840 Yeah, I get it, and I look after them. 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.520 And in terms of where we take the podcast, and 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.920 I think it's just that's the layer that I give 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.720 with the experience to a true crime podcast, I do 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.720 understand the world. And I was a little bit reluctant 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.400 at the start with true crime podcasts because I didn't 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.520 want to glorify crime. And I made a real strong 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.840 point of saying I want to show crime three sixty 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.240 like three sixty it's not all black and white. There's 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.520 good guys, bad guys, and there's all combinations, and there's 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.440 a lot of pain associated with crime. And I don't 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.760 take it flippantly when I'm talking to victims. But having 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.760 said that, and we're all sitting here tense, you do 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.760 have permission to laugh. I've had people on the podcasts 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.080 that have had their family murdered, and we can sit 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.280 there and we can laugh, and people might be looking 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.640 from the outside, going, what the hell's going on? 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:07.240 Is? 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:11.320 How insensitive is this talking to this family and making 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.360 a joke. But you've got to see some light in 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.520 the darkness, and that's again a skill I suppose you 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.000 pick up working in that area for as long as 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:20.760 long as I did. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.280 Yeah, And I think the reason people lean in so 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:28.920 hard to your podcast is because it's almost behind the scenes, 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:34.520 Like everyone wants to know what it's like when police interview, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.840 when they speak to victims, how they deliver information to 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:43.080 victims when they speak to criminals. What kind of techniques 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:48.200 from interviewing as in your time in the police do 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.520 you bring to the podcast that you think journalists, for example, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.320 wouldn't necessarily have. 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.520 You can't underestimate the pregnant pause. You ask someone the 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.720 question and just sit there and stare at them, and 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.520 I feel like you'd be there, sooner or later they're 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.920 going to talk. So that's part of it. When you're 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.240 sitting down with someone, knowledge is power, and like if 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.240 you've done your research before you're sitting down with the guests, 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.520 that helps. And you might read a whole book and 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.119 that you might be referring to anything in the book 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.720 other than that's right. When you were seven you fell 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.119 off the bike and you can see the guests all 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.439 of a sudden go, You've spent the time to prepare 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.400 for this, You've shown me respect, and then invariably they'll 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.560 provide more information. And also you've got to laugh at yourself. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.560 You've got to reveal a little bit about yourself. So 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.760 if you're asking an embarrassing question of them, sometimes to 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.160 make them feel comfortable in exchange of stupid stories, oh yeah, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.719 I've done this and done that. So that makes it 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.840 feel equal and they feel comfortable and you keep that 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:53.840 conversation going. 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.400 I think that's something in media that's really coming out 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:03.879 in podcasting that mainstream media is, you know, and obviously 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.119 NewsCorp has been a huge supporter of your work. But 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:12.800 podcasting allows for these diverse voices and different types of 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.280 people with different types of backgrounds to tell stories. And Kayla, 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:22.399 you are able to embrace storytelling in a way that 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.560 really really resonates with women in particular. And I would say, 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.600 is it overwhelmingly women who are the audience for your show? 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:29.880 Yeah? 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.719 Yeah, about ninety percent? Yeah yeah. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:38.359 And why do you think women are so fascinated by you, 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.520 not even just at a surface level, but will lean 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.840 in harder and harder and harder the more you have 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:45.280 to share. 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:49.560 I guess it's because, like I've just I mean since 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.480 I started this TikTok, I've always just tried to be 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.480 myself as much as possible and just you know, share 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.080 what's going on with my day, like how I'm feeling, 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.560 you know, the downsides and the good sides like and 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.560 I think just sharing that realness like resonated with a 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:04.119 lot of women. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:09.320 So yeah, do you think that having the background that 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:14.480 you do, is there any like are there transferable skills 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:19.280 like things from having worked in sex work? And I 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:24.600 imagine you become tough and resilient and you are fiercely 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.320 independent and you know what your boundaries are. Do you 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.360 think that has helped in podcasting? 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:31.439 I think so, Like I talk a lot about like 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.280 my boundaries and even like you know, female hygiene and 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.720 everything that a lot of sex workers know a lot about, 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.919 so I think they come to me for information and 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:41.640 stuff as well. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.359 Is there anything because I think the other thing people 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:51.680 lean into is how open and you don't seem self 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.399 conscious or shy about talking about these things that so 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.400 many people could never talk about. Has there ever been 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:03.200 anything that you have not wanted to talk about in 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.680 the realm of sex work or the realm of your 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:09.440 experiences there? 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.080 I think I talk about pretty much everything that's like 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.359 in TikTok guidelines as much as I can share. I mean, 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:18.320 I could talk about a whole lot more, but I'd 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.520 probably get canceled off YouTube or whatever. So yeah, there's 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.040 nothing that I hold back from other than I guess 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.720 private family life. That would probably be the only thing. 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:33.199 With podcasting do you have to be careful what you 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.480 talk about for sponsorships? 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.160 For brandomly, it's been a learning curve because I thought 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.280 I was like, oh, a podcast would be great for like, 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.919 you know, I can be more uncensored and talk more like, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.760 you know, without making up words like you know, Shlondon 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.880 for condom or whatever. So I was like, oh, yeah, 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:53.119 I can do that, but then as soon as you 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.720 put on YouTube, it's like, no, you can't say this, 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.360 you can't say that. So yeah, learning all those curves. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:04.840 But know, and what kind of things do clients flag 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:06.960 that they don't want you to go near? 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:07.919 Is it surprising? 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:08.680 Ah? 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.679 Just anything like I always stay clear of anything personal. 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.560 You know, I wouldn't say anything about their personal life 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.000 or where they work or you know, describe them too 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:17.840 much or anything. 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:19.560 I'm always very careful with that. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:25.200 And yeah, because I am like, your podcast has got 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.399 such a huge audience, and one thing that is a 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:35.000 challenge for podcasting generally is kind of getting advertisers on 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.920 board to see to lean into the audience rather than 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.520 the content, Like they don't need to they don't need 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.720 to be pro anal in order to be pro Kayla 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.240 Jad's audience. Yes, and so when you've had conversations like 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.760 have you had big advertisers. 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:54.320 Yes, yes we have. 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.439 But obviously there's still a lot of stigma behind sex works. 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:01.560 So we're slowly breaking that now narrative, like people speaking 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:02.720 out and talking about it more. 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:02.879 So. 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.280 Yeah, I've had a few advertisers that I've been like, 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.119 oh my gosh, like this is so exciting. 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.320 So yeah, it's a fun journey. 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:14.400 Yeah, I think for both of you, like also being 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:19.040 doing content that's around crime, advertisers can get really really 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.359 scared of it. And it's really interesting because it's where 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.400 the audiences are, Like, it's where it's you know, You've 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:28.840 got a million streams in a month and most most 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.959 podcasters couldn't even imagine that. And I think it's sort 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.600 of a journey that audiences are making the journey and 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.159 a lot of advertisers are sort of just behind. You 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:46.119 both have a wealth of experience in your respective field, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.840 and I do. I sort of touched on this with you, Kayla. 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:52.200 But Gary, have there been any other apart from those 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:56.520 interview skills, any other transferable skills from police work into 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:58.920 podcastingh a thick skin. 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.440 I suppose it was when I got in the podcasting 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:04.919 I didn't really like when I was in the police. 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:08.080 I had a profile when I was in the police, 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.520 so I was used to being. 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:10.879 In the media. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.640 But if people didn't like me that was okay because 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:16.120 I was a cop and yeah, I'm just doing my job. 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.080 And then when I told my kids, I said, I'm 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:21.000 doing a podcast, and they probably had more of a 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:25.520 sense of what podcasting was than I did, and they're going, oh, 0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:27.439 if you go bad, you're going to get smashed on 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:31.600 social media. I've gone social media. What social media? Then, 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:36.359 I don't think I would have had the courage to 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.440 do a podcast if I realized how vulnerable you are 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:42.160 in the media that you put yourself out there and 0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:46.000 the criticism. As I said in the Cops, fine, I'm 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:49.520 not being paid to be liked or listened to. Then 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:51.920 in the media, and you could get a hundred great 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:55.320 comments and you get one negative comment, you go, oh shit, 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:57.959 some of them the negative comments are right, I've got 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:03.879 to admit, which is quite but you the I've become 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:07.719 accustomed to it now, like if I polarize people, someone's 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.320 always got an opinion. But that's what I do really 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:14.040 like about the podcast world. There's so many people. And 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:16.200 it leads me back to when I left the Cops. 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:20.480 There was headlines of corrupt cop and all sorts of things, 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.920 and it was hard to take. But now I've got something. 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.119 It's not only the audience deciding what they think of 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.480 the guests. The audience can form their own view about me, 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.879 So you know that's something. And I look at Dylan 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:37.680 over there in the corner and from made in Katana, 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.800 and Dylan was actually at the pub for the first session, 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:43.280 and I think the first next couple of sessions, And 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.080 I'm glad I gave up drinking during the during the 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:48.720 podcast because we started at eight o'clock in the morning. 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:52.000 Let's have one or two schooners with the ex cop 0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:55.160 this is season one, who I hadn't seen for five 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:55.879 or six years. 0:24:56.280 --> 0:24:57.160 Let's have another one. 0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.000 And I think Dylan board in the rule no more 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:02.520 than three because we got bit sloppy then. And then 0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:05.320 after we've finished the podcast at about twelve o'clock, it 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:07.960 looks like it's lunch time. Who wants a drink? I 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.200 couldn't have kept it up. I only did eight episodes 0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:10.840 of season one. 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:11.560 I would have been a. 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.600 Dead set alcoholic. I was lasted by two o'clock in 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.439 the afternoon, so that had a short shelf life. So 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:18.479 I'm glad we stop that. 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.840 I think more podcasts with alcohol would be It would 0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:29.440 be my vibe, Kayla, What skills from because you've kind 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:33.440 of got these dual career paths where there's I guess 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:35.639 the more private part of being a sex worker, but 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.800 what you've done on social media is a career in itself. 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:43.240 Building that level of an online profile is a full 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:47.160 time job. What kind of skills from that have transferred 0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:48.880 into creating your own podcast? 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.760 I guess just being myself online, you know, sharing my 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:55.840 story has always been easy for me. 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:59.600 Yeah, how does it work working with a producer? 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.760 It's different, Like it's I've kind of come into the 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.679 podcast world doing something a little bit different, Like I 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:09.520 always wanted it to sort of be just at home, 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.560 like in my comfy outfits, like just chilling, like a 0:26:12.600 --> 0:26:15.720 good vibe, rather than being like in studio, you know, 0:26:16.040 --> 0:26:19.560 producers and cameramen. So yeah, it's kind of always been 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:20.840 a chill vibe, which is good. 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.240 Because I was going to say that you a lot 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:27.400 of your videos for the pod will be you in say, pajamas, 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:30.840 no makeup on and talking. Yeah, and that is very 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:35.479 very different to I feel like podcasts have gone quite 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:39.080 heavy in terms of video production, and people are in 0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:41.280 fancy studios and the lighting's great. 0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:43.680 And I tried that and I couldn't do it. 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:44.240 Really. 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:46.560 Yeah, I tried it for a couple I was like, 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:47.960 this is not me. How come? 0:26:48.440 --> 0:26:50.520 I just want to be at home comfy, you know, 0:26:51.160 --> 0:26:52.720 and I'm doing I do a lot of it solo, 0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:54.520 so it just made sense for me to just be 0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:55.320 at home chilling. 0:26:55.880 --> 0:27:00.159 I think it also adds to the intimacy though, as 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:04.040 a listener and for socials, it stands out like there 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:07.480 are a lot of very very polished podcasts and that 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:11.560 kind of adds to what people lean into. And Gary, 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.520 as you said, like the fact that you're releasing an 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:17.320 unedited conversation where you might be a little bit sloppy 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:23.119 by the end, that's novel for people for people to hear. Gary, 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:26.919 do you think podcasting has a unique power when it 0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:30.440 comes to rewriting the narrative? Because, as you said, you 0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:34.440 were at this kind of critical time in going from 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:37.720 policing to more of a media career. Do you think 0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:41.720 podcasting was really important to lean into because of what 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:42.639 it offered you. 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:45.760 Yeah, it sort of evolved. 0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:49.440 I didn't realize what it presented when I first started. 0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:52.800 But what I'm really proud of eye catch killers because 0:27:52.840 --> 0:27:53.879 when I was in the cops. 0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:54.880 Like you get a. 0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:57.719 Case, you did work the case, hopefully catch the offender, 0:27:57.760 --> 0:27:59.560 and then move on to the next one. So you 0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:02.160 didn't really have time to think about what causes crime. 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:05.199 Some of the things I'm most proud about because I 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:08.480 still had a passion for fighting crime like I did 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:12.360 in the cops. We've a gun and handcuffs, but after leaving, 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:16.120 where do I put this passion. Now we've fallen into 0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:19.200 a space where we're working with corrective services. We've done 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:23.240 a series when I went into prison, restorative justice with 0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:26.280 young offenders, indigenous issues. We've had it to the point 0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:29.920 where politicians are asking to come on the podcast, and 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:32.760 if the cops haven't done the investigation. 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.560 Right, we go. We criticize the cops, and you know, 0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:36.840 it's not just an attack. 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:40.800 I love policing. But the thing that I'm probably most 0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:45.040 proud of is I've had some notorious criminals on the podcast. 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:50.600 You know, the gangs, pipes, the real heavy dudes and murderers, escapes, 0:28:50.600 --> 0:28:53.360 that type of thing. When you hear their story where 0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.880 they came from, it really it's changed my perspective on 0:28:57.480 --> 0:29:00.640 what crime is all about. And I look at them upbringing, 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:03.240 some of the upbringings that these people have had. Who 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.640 am I to judge what they've done with their life? 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:08.280 And I love the story of redemption. So when those 0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.320 guys turn their life around, guys and girls we've had 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:15.760 quite a few from all sorts of crime, it makes 0:29:15.800 --> 0:29:18.360 me feel good that we're doing some good and it's 0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:21.480 putting out a strong message that no matter how low 0:29:21.560 --> 0:29:23.720 your life is, you can actually turn it around. So 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.640 platforms like that really surprise me. But I think you 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:31.560 can do that in a podcast narrative as distinct from 0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:33.960 the media, because I also work in all aspects of 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:38.000 the media with television shows, print media, that type of thing, 0:29:38.760 --> 0:29:41.080 and there's a limited space to how you can get 0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:43.960 that message across. But in the podcast world, if we 0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:45.920 want to record for four hours, we'll just sit there 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:48.920 and record for four hours. If the conversation's flowing, it 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:49.560 doesn't matter. 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:55.040 And I think that's something people really find fascinating about. 0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:58.960 I catch killers that you find yourself having empathy for 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:03.120 people you didn't expect to have empathy for. Has that 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:06.800 been a journey coming out of policing. When you're speaking 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.120 to somebody who's done a very bad thing, and you 0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.320 no longer are responsible for you know, you're not trying 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:16.320 to get them to confess things you're not. The power 0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:19.600 dynamic has shifted a little bit. Has your empathy changed 0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:19.920 for them? 0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:23.520 I'd like to think that I had empathy when I 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:26.080 was in the cops, and that was I think I 0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:30.440 carried it through. But the empathy spread for the victims, 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:33.440 the people that've been impacted by the crime, not so 0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:35.720 much of the crooks because the level that I was 0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:37.880 working at, you move on from one job to a 0:30:38.000 --> 0:30:41.600 next and you don't give it much thought. I developed 0:30:41.600 --> 0:30:44.720 relationships with criminal informants and I got to understand a 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:50.240 little bit more about the criminal world. But with the 0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:52.560 people I have on the podcast, and some of them 0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:55.840 have got no regrets. I asked you, you must feel 0:30:55.880 --> 0:31:00.040 bad about the people you stabbed, and one particular guest said, no, 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.480 I don't. I'm just not going to stab anyone again 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:03.320 because I don't want to. 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.040 Go back to jail. But there's lots of people I 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:05.680 want to stab. 0:31:07.360 --> 0:31:10.000 Okay, well, that wasn't a type of messaging I was 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:13.200 looking for, but we'll run with it. But in the 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:16.720 same regards, people got to hear what that was about 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:19.160 I'm not there to control the narrative. I want people 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:22.400 to talk about the real world. That's the real world, 0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:24.560 and I like to create it. When I'm speaking to 0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:28.480 the cops, the victims, or the gangsters and the bad 0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:31.240 guys and women, this is the real world. This is 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:34.360 what this world is about. So there's no filtering and 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:37.440 we talk like that and it creates for quite an 0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:42.000 interesting discussion. But I think with both podcasts and you 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:45.640 talk about the life experience and that there's an honesty 0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:49.040 and authenticity. And when you mentioned like advertising, I think 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:52.360 they miss the point. Like advertisers go, oh, well, it's 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.560 a true crime podcast. You glorifying crime. We are so 0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:59.200 far from glorifying crime. It's not funny. What we're doing 0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.240 is explaining what crime is about, trying to reduce crime 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:05.440 and all sorts of things, and there's an authenticity of 0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:08.920 the guests that come on, and I think advertisers miss 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:12.120 that and that rawness and honesty. We all want to 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:14.160 look into a world that most of us don't get 0:32:14.160 --> 0:32:15.680 to see exactly. 0:32:15.920 --> 0:32:19.840 Yeah, people are really connecting with that. When there's a 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:23.640 lot that's very very surface level and there's so much 0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:27.800 content out there, it's that authenticity that is standing out, 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.680 and that's something with your career and your experiences that 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:38.320 has always stood out that you're saying, this is what 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.960 I do this like I did this yesterday. This is 0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:45.800 an experience I just had. How do your clients feel 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:49.480 about the public facing side of what you do? 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.600 It's like, I've definitely lost a few clients because of it, 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:57.160 because obviously I'm so open and honest, but as well, 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.920 there's a few clients that definitely enjoy me talking about 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:03.400 them online. You know, they get a little bit of 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:05.800 a kick out of it. So yeah, it's kind of 0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.840 opposite spectrums. Either they are like not for it, they 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:11.040 leave me, or they want to come back. 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.400 Yeah, need to start charging for talking about people. 0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:17.840 Yeah, I know it's clearly like it like a little 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:22.520 too much. Yeah, has it been good? Because I like, 0:33:23.480 --> 0:33:26.240 sometimes I watch your content and I think, oh my god, 0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:29.920 this is so clever because if I was a man 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:34.440 who wanted a lady friend, this is great discoverability. Like, 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:37.120 have you found that it helps in that Like does 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:41.240 being Australia's most famous sex worker help with business? In 0:33:41.280 --> 0:33:43.360 the sense that it must be weird because you get 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:45.640 comments from people being like I love your authenticity, I 0:33:45.680 --> 0:33:47.720 love your story. Do you then get dms from people 0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:49.360 being like, what time are you available? 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:53.080 No, I actually have the opposite. Yeah, I feel like 0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:55.760 I used to be more busier when I didn't talk 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:58.440 about it, which is a little bit of a downside 0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:01.160 of it, I guess, But I mean it's created more 0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:05.440 pathways for me, so you know. But yeah, I still 0:34:05.480 --> 0:34:06.320 get the odds. 0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:10.960 Your client that wants to have fun, yeah, so yeah. 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:12.759 And wants and is happy to play, and it's. 0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:17.480 Happy to be out there and open about it. Yeah. Yeah. 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:21.839 I'm interested in this from a personal perspective because on 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:24.279 my podcast The Pylon, I speak to people who have 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:28.920 had their reputations attacked, sometimes destroyed, who have had to 0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:34.400 deal with the annihilation of their character online. Both of 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:38.680 you have, in different ways experienced attacks on your reputation online. 0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:43.000 With podcasting, there can be a lot of a lot 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:46.760 of feedback that you get. Gary, do you read reviews? 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:51.040 I used to, and I know the narrative and anyone 0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:54.759 that's in this area don't worry about the reviews, but 0:34:55.320 --> 0:35:01.239 I would. I love reading the good ones. Well it's great, 0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:06.560 then there's one fuck, So yeah, I do. But it's 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:10.000 becoming less and less impact. And I don't read them 0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:12.959 morbile time. And if someone you know the name of 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:16.440 the podcast Pylon. If someone makes a negative comment, then 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:20.799 ten other people making the comment. And I think, and 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:23.000 this was a good lesson for me, my kids and 0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:26.280 they're not kids now, they're adults. But there was someone 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:29.240 that really attacked me. It was just spiteful or whatever. 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:31.359 And I go have a look at this, and they 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:35.400 did their little research on who this knucklehead is and gone, 0:35:35.480 --> 0:35:37.280 this is the person you're worried about. 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:41.399 Gone, you're kidding. Just a drop kick. 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:47.439 But yeah, but yeah, and you know, we all learn 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:51.720 like sometimes the comments are legitimate, and Dylan can attest 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:53.520 to this, and Dell, I. 0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.759 Tell you a skill in podcasting in the interview room. 0:35:56.800 --> 0:36:00.960 If I'm speaking to someone, I'm sitting there asking a question, 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:04.280 I'm waiting for the response. When they're talking, I'm encouraging 0:36:04.320 --> 0:36:08.719 him someone that yeah yeah, and then yeah yeah. A 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:11.200 couple of I don't want the facts and figures to 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:13.880 come out, Dylan, but a couple of the early podcasts 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:16.400 before and I didn't even know what the producer was. 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:16.920 It was just. 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:22.040 Where we were doing things. I would say, yes, I 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:26.080 reckon two hundred thousand times. 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:29.319 Me would like, like exaggeration. 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:31.839 So it got to the point where I would draw 0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:35.640 a big D on my hands. So when idiot was 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:38.120 starting to go, yeah, yeah, what's that end doing? 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:41.560 All right, keep your mouth shut. I've I've got better 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:41.840 at it. 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.200 But I find when I'm really comfortable with someone and 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:47.520 the barriers are breaking down, you wait to go out 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:49.920 next time you're talking to a friend and just be 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:55.160 mindful how many times you go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:55.680 And once you notice it. 0:36:57.280 --> 0:36:59.760 You were saying, like time when I watched. 0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.839 Myself, like why did I do that? 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:01.759 Yeah? 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:03.560 You just cream. 0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:06.640 But it's because you're like it's like you're having a 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.279 conversation with your friends, so you're just natural and that's 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:10.600 how you naturally speak. 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:13.520 But with podcasting, it's like a whole different language that 0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.239 you have to learn. And your producer will yeah, but 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:16.959 that's a good idea. 0:37:17.000 --> 0:37:19.640 I might have to use that for me. 0:37:20.080 --> 0:37:22.080 Oh I'm going to do that hat because yeah, my 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:25.480 producer is like, I can't cut it out because it'll 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:28.040 be that the other person's talking a little bit while 0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:29.759 I'm saying it. So she's like, there's no way to 0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:32.400 edit this. You're just annoying, and I'm like, I'm so sorry, 0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:36.120 I'm so sorry. It's it is very Yet when you 0:37:36.160 --> 0:37:39.560 listen back, you're like, oh god, Kayla. Do you read 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:40.600 podcast reviews? 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:41.840 Ah? 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:45.000 Yeah, sometimes I think it's good to read, like not 0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:47.200 all the time obviously because you'll get hung up on it, 0:37:47.239 --> 0:37:49.120 but it's good to read negative comments in a way 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:52.120 because it's like, oh, Okay, that's how I learned that 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:54.640 I was saying, like too much, you know, like you 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:57.480 learn it so you can improve, I guess in a way. 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:01.640 Ah, there's certain things that you read that podcast reviews 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:04.480 or on TikTok that do get to you, because I 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:06.520 find there are certain things that I'm like yeah, fair, 0:38:06.880 --> 0:38:08.719 and other things that I'm like, ooh, if I read 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:10.719 that every day, I just go in a hole and quit. 0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:12.880 I think it's when people talk about my kids or 0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:15.239 like how I am as a mother just because I 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.919 don't show them online doesn't mean you know, the living 0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:20.960 in a different home with someone else, like they're very 0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:24.239 much around, Like I just don't show them online. And 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:26.319 I think people take that as like, oh, she must 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:28.520 be a bad mother, she must you know, spend no 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:31.919 time with her kids and you know, so, yeah, there's 0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:35.000 little comments like that that I have to really ignore 0:38:35.320 --> 0:38:39.759 because otherwise I'll get really heated. But yeah, most of 0:38:39.760 --> 0:38:42.360 the time, I'm like, h it doesn't phaze me because 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:45.279 I feel like I've lived a whole life before I 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:48.160 started this, So now it's kind of like you can 0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:50.239 say what you want to me, Like, I don't really care. 0:38:50.880 --> 0:38:53.880 You know, how about the stigma against sex work. Do 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:55.480 you feel like you get faced with that. 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:01.000 I don't think so, Like, it's definitely come a long way, 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:04.800 like in the last ten years, like like just talking 0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:08.920 about sex work has been huge for sex work, So 0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:12.280 I think of anything like, we're progressing very well. 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:17.000 So hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Whant they get 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:19.680 more out of Ketch Killers? Then you should head over 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:23.080 to our new video feed on Spotify where you can 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:27.000 watch every episode of Ketch Killers. Just search for I 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:30.760 Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching. 0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:32.240 Today. 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:35.160 You said something interesting on I think it was on 0:39:35.680 --> 0:39:39.799 TikTok about how in the early days you used to 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:42.719 like when I first started following you, you used to 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:45.440 like count your money and that was it was there 0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:47.480 was something really relaxing about watching. 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:47.960 You count cash. 0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:51.200 I was like, I don't think cash. Yeah, you just 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:53.319 had like all these dollar bills and I was like, 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:58.319 oh my god, get it. But you don't do that anymore. No, 0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:00.719 and you've talked about why why is that? 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:04.719 I guess for me, like as my platform grew, I 0:40:04.760 --> 0:40:07.080 had to really like think about, you know, being a 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:08.960 role model and what I was putting out there online. 0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:13.720 So just with you know, young people scrolling through TikTok, 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:15.759 they might see my money count videos and be like, 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:18.480 oh my gosh, she makes so much money online, but 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:20.200 they're not realized like what I actually had to do 0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:21.080 to get that money. 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:24.480 So I guess I just wanted to kind of limit, 0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:25.200 you know what. 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:29.759 Like I was still putting out the downsides of the industry, 0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:32.680 but not everyone sits and scrolls through every video. 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:34.760 So it was just being more. 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:38.560 Mindful, like as my page grew, like hey, maybe not 0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:43.360 do that. And also just personal safety and safety of 0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:47.040 other sex workers. I felt like, you know, probably don't 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:50.320 want everyone knowing that we're carrying a bunch of cash around. 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:55.680 And that's the thing. That's the thing about creating content online, 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.759 creating podcasts, you are learning in real. 0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:01.080 Yeah, and it's just being a adaptive you know, if 0:41:01.120 --> 0:41:04.200 something doesn't work or if you get criticism from something 0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:06.480 like you know, adapting. 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:09.120 Yeah, and you do. You do have to kind of 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.360 do that in public and that can be It's different 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:16.600 to other kinds of work where you get feedback hopefully 0:41:16.840 --> 0:41:18.920 in a more private environment and you can lick your 0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:19.840 wounds and move on. 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:20.640 Yeah. 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:26.879 How do you I guess when you are doing storytime 0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:32.799 with Kayla Jaide, how do you kind of navigate what 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:38.520 is really for podcasting versus what's for anything else? Like 0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:41.640 there is there anything when you look at the future 0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:45.800 of story time, what's the trajectory you see it going 0:41:45.840 --> 0:41:49.120 in and what's kind of the niche and the like 0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:51.399 the little space you want to carve out for this 0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:52.279 particular show. 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:56.719 Yeah, I guess just you know, destigmatizing sex work in 0:41:56.760 --> 0:41:59.200 a way, you know, showing people that we are real 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.560 people and you know, we're not just objects that are 0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:05.240 for sex. Like, we have a lot to talk about 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:08.320 and you know, a lot of information. So just carving 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:09.399 out that lane a little bit. 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:15.120 And Gary for I catch Killers, where do you see 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:17.040 it going? Where do you see the future of the show. 0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:20.520 I'd like to like broaden it. 0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:23.399 Like the main theme is crime and will always come 0:42:23.520 --> 0:42:27.400 come back to crime, but sometimes it gets so heavy, 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:30.640 like we've had bad guy victims, this. 0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:33.200 Police talking horrible, horrible crimes. 0:42:33.560 --> 0:42:35.960 Sometimes I say, we just got to have fun and 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:39.520 so I get you know, I might get a comedian on. 0:42:39.680 --> 0:42:42.880 The comedian might be have a drug issue in the 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:46.200 past or different things, and just like lightening it up. 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:49.480 We've had quite a few sex workers on the show 0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:52.319 and we sit down and we have a good fun 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:56.480 conversation and people enjoy that, and so yeah, we're broadening 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.960 it out. And anyone with an interesting story, that's what 0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.520 maytivates me in the podcast. If there's someone that's got 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.200 an interesting story, I love to hear their stories. So 0:43:05.600 --> 0:43:08.600 we'll still stay true to crime, but we'll branch out 0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:11.919 a little bit more and explore the world and people 0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:14.560 who have got interesting stories, because that's sometimes I have 0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:17.520 guests on that haven't got the profile and I'm thinking, Oh, 0:43:17.560 --> 0:43:20.080 what's going to happen here, And I'm just blown away 0:43:20.200 --> 0:43:23.040 by this person's story just the way they deliver their story. 0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:26.000 And it might be something that we know about, but 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.359 it's something that's deeply personal. That's unique to them, and 0:43:29.719 --> 0:43:35.240 I find that fascinating and giving the audience the respect 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:37.040 that they can form their own views. I'm not going 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:40.120 to judge anyone for what they've done in their life, 0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:42.279 just like I don't want to be judged for what 0:43:42.320 --> 0:43:45.640 I've done in my life. And I heard you say that, 0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:48.120 you know, with the social media and all that, Well, 0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:49.800 this is who I am, and that's the sort of 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:51.799 attitude I've got. If you don't like me, you don't 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:54.040 like me. I can't help that. But I know who 0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:56.960 I am, and I think you probably go through the 0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:57.480 same thing. 0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:01.040 And I think that's why podcasting is such a special 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:04.359 space to be in because people are opting in. It's 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:07.480 not it's different to socials in that, you know, Kaylor, 0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:09.400 you might end up every now and then on the 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:11.880 wrong side of TikTok, where you're like, Okay, who are 0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:13.600 these people? I don't know how I ended up in 0:44:13.640 --> 0:44:19.399 your fore page? Whereas with podcasting people, I always think 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:22.000 no one hate listens to a podcast. If people are 0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:26.440 listening to Gary Jublin, it's because they bloody love this 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:27.960 show and they want to hear what he has to say. 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:29.919 If people are listening to Kayla Jake, people just don't 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:32.839 have time to like well. But then sometimes you read 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:34.480 the reviews and you're like, oh, wow, no they do. 0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:37.879 But for the most part, and I think that's also 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:43.120 why people feel safer like guests, because it's far less 0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:45.799 likely that there is going to be a snippet of 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:48.560 what they say that ends up in the daily mail, 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:51.200 because it's bloody hard to sit there and transcribe a 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:56.640 whole podcast interview as opposed to, you know, a piece 0:44:56.640 --> 0:44:58.720 in the paper where there might just be a quote. 0:44:59.160 --> 0:45:02.880 I want to know, Kayla, what is the biggest lesson 0:45:02.960 --> 0:45:06.480 you've learnt from podcasting? And it has been a short 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:09.080 time for you, but I imagine it's been a very 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:12.680 steep learning curve and a quick trajectory because the growth 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:16.680 has been so phenomenal. But what's the biggest learning. 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:23.279 Just always having like a space that's outside of the 0:45:23.360 --> 0:45:26.480 online life, you know, that you can retreat to if 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:29.520 it does get too much. Just having that little, you know, 0:45:29.680 --> 0:45:31.920 space where it's whether it's a hobby or like family 0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:34.480 or friends that you can just go to if you 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:34.840 need to. 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:38.680 That's really that's really clever, And it's also kind of 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:41.560 future proofing because you know how every now and then 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:42.920 there'll be a rumor that they're like they're going to 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:45.400 shut down TikTok, and you're like, well, I have a 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.760 really popular podcast, so it doesn't matter so much. Gary, 0:45:48.880 --> 0:45:50.680 what have you learned from podcasting? 0:45:51.960 --> 0:45:56.880 I've probably learned the importance of storytelling And that sounds 0:45:56.880 --> 0:46:00.360 a bit dramatic, but letting people tell their stories. I 0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:02.879 think the world's an interesting place. And you know, I've 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:07.200 had some people that have had Tom Carroll, the two 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.839 times World surfing champion, on the podcast, I said I 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:11.920 had pictures in my bedroom when I was growing up 0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:16.759 as a teenager, like so many interesting stories, and I 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:19.520 just love being able to give people a platform to 0:46:19.640 --> 0:46:24.160 tell their story and also educate people through that whether 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:27.040 they buy into it or not about Okay, let's not 0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:30.080 judge every person that's in jail as a bad person. 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.560 Let's look at what got them there and things that happened. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:36.760 And when we talk crime, the politicians might be dramatic 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:39.959 about cutting down on crime, going hard on crime, we'll 0:46:39.960 --> 0:46:42.160 have discussions about is that the right way to do 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:45.760 it or is there other alternatives, you know, different forms 0:46:45.840 --> 0:46:50.040 of imprisonment, that type of thing. So Yeah, storytelling if 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:52.120 it all came down to that, Because sometimes I wake 0:46:52.239 --> 0:46:55.160 up and think, what's the purpose of my day. If 0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:57.759 I'm preparing for a podcast, I think, well, there's an 0:46:57.760 --> 0:46:59.960 important story to be told and people might learn from 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:02.680 because I don't think there's a guess that I've had 0:47:02.680 --> 0:47:04.759 on the podcast that I haven't walked away a little 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:08.359 bit wiser. Yeah, picked up something or learned something from them. 0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:09.480 I think that's important. 0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:13.319 Yeah, And I think in both of your cases, there's 0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:18.240 so much psychological research about how the antidote to stigma, 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:21.080 the thing that builds empathy, the thing that builds connection, 0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:26.880 is just exposure to different kinds of people. Like so 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:30.360 much of our prejudice is because we're simply we're simply 0:47:30.400 --> 0:47:33.880 not hearing or connecting with the kinds of people that 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:38.400 might be outside our circle. And both of you offer 0:47:38.480 --> 0:47:42.120 these behind the scenes windows into that. Like, Kayla, there 0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:44.680 are probably a lot of people who have never met 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:47.600 a sex worker and they get to have this emotional 0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:50.080 connection with you and they're like, hold on, I really 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.280 like this person. I respect this person that goes against 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:56.840 all my prejudices. And Gary By, you know, all the 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:00.880 people you're interviewing as well as being a former copy yourself, 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:04.120 and people might have stigma about that. They go, oh, 0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:06.040 I really like this guy. It seems really nice. He 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:08.000 doesn't seem scary. I thought I was meant to be 0:48:08.000 --> 0:48:08.680 scared of police. 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:11.200 You are. 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:16.160 I'd like to be interviewed by Gary. I think I 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:19.560 think we'd be friends. I wanted to open up for 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:24.200 the last few minutes for any questions that anyone has 0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:27.120 for these guys, or about podcasting or anything. We've even 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:27.680 got a mic. 0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:31.040 Thank you, Hi, thank you so much. 0:48:31.680 --> 0:48:34.200 My question is probably for you Gary, and maybe even 0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:35.040 for yourself, Claire. 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:39.000 What do you do to prepare before you interview someone? 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:42.520 And how long? I without giving the way trade secrets. 0:48:43.120 --> 0:48:45.319 I read a lot of books, Like if someone's got 0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:48.120 a book out, I'll read the book and then I 0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:51.040 really knuckle down closest to the time when I know 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.799 the podcast, I will script a framework in the way 0:48:54.960 --> 0:48:59.480 I think the podcast should run. Sometimes the easiest podcast 0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:01.520 where a put my notes down don't have to refer 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:02.840 to the one because it just flows. 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:05.120 But I have that as a safeguard. 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:06.880 If I get in there and I ask a question 0:49:06.960 --> 0:49:09.400 and I say to Kayla, Hi, do you want to 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:12.360 talk about your career and she goes no, and then Okay, 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:14.840 well you've got to have a fallback, So I have 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:18.560 a list there. I color cod that as stupid as 0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:20.640 it sounds. It's a little bit of type of preparation 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:23.799 that I would do before I go into interview at 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.200 a suspect, but just the preparation, have all the information 0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:30.279 in there. But I've only I've got limited capacity, so 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:32.600 I tend to have a guest and then I'm into 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.080 my next guest and I can't remember who I did 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.640 the week before. So yeah, that's the prep. 0:49:38.640 --> 0:49:41.520 Yeah, and you've stressed me out because I have two 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:43.800 interviews back to back tomorrow morning that I haven't started 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:47.200 prepping for, but I will be prepping so late tonight. 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:50.480 You have no idea. And like listening, I find even 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:53.600 with these guys, if you're interviewing someone for a podcast, 0:49:53.920 --> 0:49:57.600 listening to previous podcast interviews is so good because not 0:49:57.640 --> 0:50:01.160 only do you just I really absorb information in an 0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:03.799 audio format, but you just get a vibe of who 0:50:03.840 --> 0:50:05.600 they are, and then when you go into a room, 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:08.359 you feel like you already know them. Like with both 0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:11.120 of you, I'm like I know you guys, like you're 0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:14.680 not strangers, Kayla. You've been interviewing people as well, and 0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:19.919 that is a totally new thing. But it's really really new. Yeah, 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:21.480 how are you going about it? 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:23.359 I'm going all right, I'm going all right. 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:25.520 I had to learn to stop butting in because my 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:29.000 ADHD I just want to like, That's how I connect 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:30.640 with people, is they just like, oh my god, you 0:50:30.719 --> 0:50:32.640 like this too, let's talk about it. But I guess 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:36.440 in an audio format that's not exactly nice to listen to. 0:50:37.160 --> 0:50:37.759 So I had to. 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:41.040 Really like just calm down and like really listen to what, 0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:42.560 you know, the persons saying. 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:46.040 And yeah, yeah, that restraint is the hardest thing because 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:47.319 you get really excited. 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:48.759 I just want to say this one thing. 0:50:49.000 --> 0:50:51.560 Yeah, someone will mention something halfway through a sentence and 0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:53.120 you're like, I don't want to, but I really need 0:50:53.120 --> 0:50:54.040 to know what I'm thinking. 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:55.920 About it, and I can't stop thinking about it until. 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:59.480 Can I just add Sometimes the criticism is that, oh, 0:50:59.520 --> 0:51:02.440 you're telling your stories, but this is what people don't understand. 0:51:02.520 --> 0:51:04.359 These are the ones I want to respond back to. 0:51:04.960 --> 0:51:06.880 If I just sat there and asked a series of 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:10.920 questions and didn't have a conversation the conversation doesn't fly, 0:51:11.520 --> 0:51:14.680 and you sometimes and if you haven't, I'm sure you 0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:18.000 will be and you would have been criticized. Oh you're 0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:20.960 making the podcast about yourself. That's how you get a 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:25.920 conversation flowing, That's how it rolls on. And they're the 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:27.600 ones I want to respond to. I just don't know 0:51:27.600 --> 0:51:29.279 how to respond on social media, but. 0:51:29.560 --> 0:51:34.960 I know, I know, no response, Yeah, yeah. 0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:34.560 Thank you. 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:36.040 Hi. 0:51:37.040 --> 0:51:41.200 My question was obviously for all of you. Your podcast 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:43.759 concepts are such great concepts, but how do you know 0:51:43.840 --> 0:51:46.920 each episode's going to land in such a crowded space, 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.120 like do you know fim. 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:50.040 Land with the audience? 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:51.520 Even if your last one did, how do you know 0:51:51.600 --> 0:51:52.040 the next one? 0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:52.279 Well? 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:53.640 Yeah, Gary, Joanna. 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:57.760 Look, I think that you build up the audience like that. 0:51:57.760 --> 0:51:58.320 That helps. 0:51:58.360 --> 0:52:02.560 It's a loyalty to the audience. And I've been confused 0:52:02.560 --> 0:52:05.919 sometimes when I've had big overseas guests, like really these 0:52:05.960 --> 0:52:09.160 are you know Donny Brasca, the real Donnie Brasca and 0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:12.239 have him on the podcast. I'm thinking everyone's going to 0:52:12.280 --> 0:52:15.160 be interested in this. We get the listeners, but I 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:18.120 think there's a lot of local content. And sometimes I 0:52:18.200 --> 0:52:22.319 have guests overseas guests so that the audience don't buy 0:52:22.320 --> 0:52:24.600 into it as much because they don't relate. And then 0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:26.360 you get others that you think, oh, that's not going 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:28.560 to be really interesting, and they just jump on it. 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:33.200 So you build up the listeners, you stay true, you 0:52:33.280 --> 0:52:36.360 try things, and sometimes you take a risk and it 0:52:36.400 --> 0:52:37.960 doesn't work out, other times it does. 0:52:38.440 --> 0:52:41.400 That's totally It's like my online content, like, you know, 0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:44.080 some videos will go viral that I completely didn't think 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:46.200 we're going to go viral. So I think it's just 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:48.440 staying true to yourself and you know what you want 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:50.920 to talk about, and your followers will listen to. 0:52:51.880 --> 0:52:56.600 What's been the most popular episode of your podcast so far, Kayler? 0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:00.000 Is it the launch where you talked about. 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:01.200 I think family. 0:53:01.480 --> 0:53:03.880 Yeah, I think I try not to look at like numbers, 0:53:04.000 --> 0:53:06.760 but I think that was one of the bigger ones. 0:53:07.040 --> 0:53:08.520 Yeah, that and Peggy su. 0:53:08.440 --> 0:53:10.320 Yeah, I was I was gonna say that Peggy was 0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:11.000 a RAS later. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:12.919 So yeah. 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:15.880 It's like not an exact science though, and that's what's 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:18.080 so sometimes frustrating. 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:19.719 I'm sure you guys mind it as well. 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:23.440 You're like I know that this is this and then 0:53:23.480 --> 0:53:25.640 it's like oh yeah, and it's like no, people are 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:29.279 really weird with their interests and and yeah, you'll have 0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:31.879 a guess that you just think, oh my gosh, this 0:53:32.080 --> 0:53:35.080 is such a huge get and people aren't as invested. 0:53:35.280 --> 0:53:38.800 And sometimes it's someone that you know doesn't have the profile, 0:53:38.840 --> 0:53:41.840 but there's just something really curious about them that people 0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:46.439 lean into. But there's also like so much that goes 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:49.520 into I'm sure Gary you've mastered the art of like 0:53:49.920 --> 0:53:52.239 the title of an episode and the shown like all 0:53:52.239 --> 0:53:55.160 of this stuff that you kind of build up that 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:56.120 knowledge over time. 0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:01.839 Any other questions, This is a question for the both 0:54:01.840 --> 0:54:02.160 of you. 0:54:02.880 --> 0:54:05.360 Obviously you'll reach out to connections and people that you 0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:08.040 know that you want to appear on the show, and 0:54:08.080 --> 0:54:10.120 then I'm sure you also get people on the other 0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:13.160 end who are expressing interest. Have either of you ever 0:54:13.200 --> 0:54:18.840 said no to a guest and if you can share why. 0:54:18.280 --> 0:54:20.640 That's such a good question, Kayla, do you want to go? 0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:23.279 I imagine you've had quite a few people with Yeah, I. 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:25.720 Definitely have had people. 0:54:25.960 --> 0:54:28.440 And then I guess as well, like brand deals and 0:54:28.480 --> 0:54:30.319 things that will want to work on the podcast that 0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:33.480 I don't fully align with, And it's just that thing 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:36.759 just staying true to yourself because obviously you're not going 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:39.600 to feel as comfortable having someone that you don't really 0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:41.480 get along with, like you always try and make sure 0:54:41.480 --> 0:54:45.120 I have some sort of connection or alignment with like 0:54:45.160 --> 0:54:46.560 a brand or whatever. 0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:48.960 Before I work with them. 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:51.640 Yeah, we probably have time. But one more quick question. 0:54:53.120 --> 0:54:53.520 Thank you. 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:56.840 This has been incredible. Thank you so much. I'm bella 0:54:56.920 --> 0:54:59.919 co founder of dian. We have a podcast community inside PLATF. 0:55:00.680 --> 0:55:02.520 I was really curious how you. 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:06.560 Approach fandom and your community and engaging with them beyond 0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:08.600 the episode. I think you've all done such an incredible 0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:11.880 job of building these loyal listener bases that really resonates 0:55:11.920 --> 0:55:14.719 your stories. How do you yet approach that connection beyond 0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:15.280 the episode? 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:20.279 Gary, do you like your community of listeners? How do 0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:21.879 you engage with them? 0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:22.040 Like? 0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:23.680 Do you have events? 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:26.960 Do you do like we did a live shower, I 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.839 did a live tour that wasn't necessarily caught up with 0:55:29.880 --> 0:55:33.280 the podcast, but we did a live around the country, 0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:35.719 did a live tour. The best way I can do 0:55:35.760 --> 0:55:39.319 it is that people will reach out, and amazingly how 0:55:39.320 --> 0:55:41.360 they reach out, I try to respond unless they are 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:46.239 a complete another on different platforms that it's not hard 0:55:46.239 --> 0:55:49.000 to find my email or a month phone numbers out there. 0:55:49.280 --> 0:55:50.040 But the people in. 0:55:50.000 --> 0:55:51.880 The street, the day to day people in the street, 0:55:51.920 --> 0:55:55.319 they're the ones that if they say hi, we listen 0:55:55.360 --> 0:55:59.400 to your podcast, I spend five minutes talking to and whatever, 0:56:00.040 --> 0:56:03.960 and I think that's important. I bumped into someone I 0:56:03.960 --> 0:56:06.440 won't mention his name, but I spoke to him just 0:56:06.440 --> 0:56:09.160 at the railway station. He's walking his dog and he 0:56:09.200 --> 0:56:13.560 posted something on social media and Nina, one of the producers, said, oh, 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:17.279 you met such and such, and I've gone, who's that? Oh, 0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:22.480 he's posted a rock star And then I didn't didn't realize, 0:56:22.480 --> 0:56:24.319 but it ended up at the backstage at then More 0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:28.200 Theater when they were playing at sold out thing. But yeah, 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:30.359 just being nice to people, I think is the way 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:33.920 I tried to do it. You're approachable, it's everyone sharing 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:36.600 their stories and that's important. 0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:39.520 Totally, and just yeah, being engaging in the comments, like 0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:43.320 responding to people like I think, like the whole reason 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:47.360 why I started my TikTok was just to connect with people. 0:56:47.719 --> 0:56:50.040 So it really came easy to me to like connect 0:56:50.080 --> 0:56:52.319 with my fans and then yeah, I love seeing them 0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:54.200 out in public and they come up to me. 0:56:54.360 --> 0:56:55.320 It's like so sweet. 0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.320 What happens if somebody comes up to you in public 0:56:58.680 --> 0:56:59.760 and you're with your family. 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:00.719 I've always been. 0:57:00.600 --> 0:57:06.080 Curious, like because like ninety percent of my following is female, Like, 0:57:06.120 --> 0:57:08.560 they are very respectful, Like I will see a lot 0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:10.480 of people just like way from a distance or be 0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:12.359 like I just wanted to say hi, but I didn't 0:57:12.360 --> 0:57:15.400 want to come up because so, yeah, I think just 0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:19.120 being respectful and obviously you know, being mindful that there's 0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:22.640 children around. But yeah, everyone's been so amazing. 0:57:23.200 --> 0:57:25.520 Yeah, and I think both of you have such such 0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:29.480 dedicated audiences where they feel that emotional connection with you, 0:57:29.520 --> 0:57:33.720 which is a testament to your authenticity, which is exactly 0:57:33.760 --> 0:57:36.360 what can reshape narratives, which is what this was about. 0:57:36.440 --> 0:57:39.400 So thank you so much for your time today. You're 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:42.040 both so brilliant, and thank you for being here, and 0:57:42.040 --> 0:57:43.760 thank you for those questions. They were great. 0:57:44.720 --> 0:57:58.440 Thank you, Thank you guy.