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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This episode

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Speaker 1: was recorded live at the twenty twenty five South By

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Speaker 1: Southwest Conference at the Sydney International Convention Center. I was

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Speaker 1: on a panel with Kayla Jade, who's one of Australia's

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Speaker 1: most well known sex workers. The session was hosted by

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Speaker 1: journalists Claire Stevens. Now, you might wonder what we had

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Speaker 1: to talk about a sex worker and a former cop. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was a lot of fun because besides being a

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Speaker 1: sex worker, Kayla also hosts podcasts, and that's what we

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Speaker 1: talked about. We discussed changing face of media and the

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Speaker 1: role that podcast is playing keeping people informed. I really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the chat and I think you will too.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Claire Stephens. Thank you for joining us at

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Speaker 2: show Notes for our session flip the script how podcasts

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Speaker 2: can reshape the narrative. Before we begin, I want to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge the Gadigal people of the or Nation whose land

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Speaker 2: we are gathering on today. Spoken word and storytelling is

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Speaker 2: such a valuable part of First Nations culture and I

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Speaker 2: feel very privileged to be able to embrace these practices

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Speaker 2: through storytelling and podcasts. Today I am joined by two

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Speaker 2: very different people who have you podcasting to reshape two

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Speaker 2: very different kinds of narratives. You might be wondering what

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Speaker 2: Australia's most famous homicide detective and Australia's most famous sex

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Speaker 2: worker have in common, but there is a surprising amount

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Speaker 2: of common ground here. I want to start by introducing

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Speaker 2: Gary Jublin, the host of one of the most listened

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Speaker 2: to podcasts in the country, I Catch Killers. Jubilin sits

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Speaker 2: across from cops, criminals, addicts, victims, lawyers and more to

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Speaker 2: hear their stories, and he explores the ideas of good

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Speaker 2: and evil, redemption, suffering, joy and tragedy. He is particularly

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Speaker 2: qualified to do this after a thirty four year policing

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Speaker 2: career where he led investigations into the disappearance of William

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Speaker 2: Tyrrel as well as the serial killing of three Indigenous

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Speaker 2: children in Bauerville. He also run the crime scene following

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Speaker 2: the Link Cafe siege. Then it's my pleasure to introduce

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Speaker 2: Kayla Jaide, the host of story Time by Kayla Jade,

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Speaker 2: which hit one millions streams in its first month. Anyone

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Speaker 2: who has ever had anything to do with podcasting knows

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Speaker 2: how absurdly impressive that is. She is a sex worker,

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Speaker 2: a storyteller, and a viral creator with two point three

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Speaker 2: million followers on TikTok and on Storytime, Kayla char's uncensored stories,

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Speaker 2: vulnerable chats, celebrity interviews, and a chance to ask her anything.

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Speaker 2: Nothing is off limits as she records from home and

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Speaker 2: talks about everything from money to mental health, to body

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Speaker 2: image and beauty standards. Very briefly, I'm Clare Stevens I'm

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Speaker 2: the host of The Pylon, a podcast that interviews people

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Speaker 2: who have been at the center of online outrage, and

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Speaker 2: that is actually where I want to start. Gary, you

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Speaker 2: left the police force in twenty nineteen after being accused

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Speaker 2: of a legally recording a suspect in the William Tyrell investigation.

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Speaker 2: I can imagine that was a really tumultuous time personally

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Speaker 2: and professionally. Yet you turn into podcasting not too long afterwards.

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Speaker 2: Why was it podcasting you turned to out of every

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Speaker 2: possible career that you could have gone to.

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Speaker 1: Well with my criminal conviction, I couldn't be a private investigator.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that's a separate story, and I still deny

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Speaker 1: the allegation. A lot of people reached out to me

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Speaker 1: I had I was fortunate or unfortunate, however you look

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Speaker 1: at it. In the police, I worked a lot of

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Speaker 1: high profile jobs. So when people found out that I

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Speaker 1: was leaving the police, or even before I left the police,

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Speaker 1: people in the media were reaching out out to me

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Speaker 1: a variety of offers and shows and different things. And

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Speaker 1: then with news Corp. Part of it was to write

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Speaker 1: write articles for the papers, but the other thing was

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Speaker 1: to do a podcast, and I liked the podcast because

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of work with TV shows like

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Speaker 1: four Corners, sixty Minutes, that type of thing, and I'm

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Speaker 1: very mindful that when you're being quoted in the media,

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Speaker 1: when you've got a camera on you for eight hours

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Speaker 1: and then they're only looking for a minute here or

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Speaker 1: a minute there, how it can be confusing. Podcasting I

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Speaker 1: had a slight idea.

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Speaker 3: What it was.

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Speaker 1: I'd listened to podcasts and that, but it just felt

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Speaker 1: like an area that I could work in that I

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Speaker 1: had some degree of control. Because when your a cop

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Speaker 1: as long as I was, and then you're charged and

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Speaker 1: you're on the front page of the paper, your integrity

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Speaker 1: is important. And I thought I could still maintain my

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Speaker 1: integrity if I had control. And I felt that in

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Speaker 1: the podcast world, I had that little bit of control.

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Speaker 2: And Kayla, you also were in a bit of a

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Speaker 2: tumultuous time in that there was all this stuff going

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Speaker 2: on online about your personal life and your family, and

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Speaker 2: you could have responded on TikTok, you could have responded

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Speaker 2: in many different forums, and yet you responded with podcasting.

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Speaker 2: Why was that?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it just made sense because you know, everything

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Speaker 4: came out all at once and I was launching this podcast,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, how can I not talk about this?

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Speaker 5: You know, it's such a big thing. But that's just

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Speaker 5: the way of the internet. You know.

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Speaker 4: It's like, when you're putting yourself out there online, you're

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Speaker 4: going to expect some sort of like backlash from people

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Speaker 4: or people trying.

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Speaker 5: To take things too far.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I just wanted to share my side of

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Speaker 4: the story, like in an depth way. Obviously, going on podcasts,

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Speaker 4: it's much longer form content, so it's certainly so much

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Speaker 4: you can share on TikTok, So yeah, it was made

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Speaker 4: sense to do it that way.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there is the opportunity because you were

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Speaker 2: talking about something so sensitive, which was your kids, and

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Speaker 2: people had been going through and trying to unearth details

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Speaker 2: which must have been really scary, And the fact that

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Speaker 2: you did it via podcasting, do you think there was

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Speaker 2: more of an intimacy with the listener where you like

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Speaker 2: you knew that it was being listened to in good faith.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so I just put all my all

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Speaker 4: out there, you know, there any edits or anything. I

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Speaker 4: just wanted to tell my side of the story. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: it made sense doing it.

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Speaker 2: That way, and clearly people really really wanted to know

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Speaker 2: and wanted to know in that long form format. I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people think that they can just

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Speaker 2: pick up a microphone and have a successful podcast.

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Speaker 5: I want to know what it.

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Speaker 2: Took to become successful and good at this. So Gary,

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Speaker 2: when you first started, did you have media training? Like?

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Speaker 2: How did you how did you go from a make

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Speaker 2: such a radical career jump.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any media training, but I was comfortable

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Speaker 1: speaking to the media with the high profile jobs I had,

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Speaker 1: so I had an understanding of media as such. But

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Speaker 1: in terms of training, what was suggested for my first

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Speaker 1: episode of the podcast, episode one of my catch Killers

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Speaker 1: was how about you get your old workmate Jason Eavers,

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Speaker 1: who I worked in homicide with for ten years, and

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Speaker 1: we'll put you in a pub and we'll fly him

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Speaker 1: down to Sydney and we'll give you some drinks and

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Speaker 1: we're going to.

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Speaker 3: Record that conversation. Let's see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: And literally that was the first episode of eye catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: Interesting in the topic that we're talking about today too,

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Speaker 1: Like when I provided that unedited version that went for

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Speaker 1: about two and a half hours, the suggestion was from

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Speaker 1: the media, the more traditional thinking media let's cut it down.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about when you guys were running that case

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Speaker 1: or when you turned up at that crime scene.

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Speaker 3: And I was fortunate that it was clear. Harvey.

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Speaker 1: I think that got a good reputation in the media world.

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Speaker 1: She pushed back on it and said, no, let's run it.

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Speaker 1: This is what long form conversation is about. We laughed,

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Speaker 1: we turned on each other, we joked about things, but

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Speaker 1: you've got a sense, and it created an environment like

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Speaker 1: it was a fly on the wall, so people listening

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Speaker 1: to it could understand who Jason than I were and

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Speaker 1: what our backstory was in that long form conversation. So

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Speaker 1: no training, I prepare for an interview like I prepare

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Speaker 1: for an interview if I'm interviewing a bad guy. And

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Speaker 1: that was what I was paid to do to get

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Speaker 1: people to confess to crimes. So I don't want to

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Speaker 1: I don't ever have a guess on the podcast unless

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Speaker 1: I declare this is what I'm going to do. I

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Speaker 1: always want to protect the guests because they're vulnerable. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about very emotional, deep issues and personal details. So

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Speaker 1: I always say I will protect you. And like sometimes

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Speaker 1: I've got bikes on and they're saying bad things about

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Speaker 1: another rival biking gang, and mate, we've got to wind

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Speaker 1: that in a little bit because otherwise we might start

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Speaker 1: a biking walk. Yeah, I'm not joking. I've had many

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Speaker 1: a heated discussion late at night going okay, we'll do this,

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Speaker 1: do that. But they're the things that you've got to

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Speaker 1: try and try and protect your guests. So it's not

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Speaker 1: about that gotcha moment. It's more about letting the listener

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Speaker 1: form their own views about the person you're speaking to.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, leaving it unedited or obviously maybe cutting

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Speaker 2: the biker gangs, but leaving a lot of it in.

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Speaker 2: It is so important for the listener to have all

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Speaker 2: the context of your dynamic with somebody and of the

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Speaker 2: tone of it that you don't get a tone when

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Speaker 2: you read something that's just written, and even on a

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Speaker 2: platform like TikTok, when things can be you know, stitched,

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Speaker 2: or people can take a tiny bit of what you've

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Speaker 2: said and ignore the context that might actually change the narrative. Kaylor,

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Speaker 2: what did it actually take behind the scenes to make

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Speaker 2: your podcast? Because what was kind of what did you

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Speaker 2: have to stretch in terms of skills, what did you

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Speaker 2: have to learn? What would people not know about what

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Speaker 2: it actually took.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was like learning a new language in a way,

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Speaker 4: because you know, I was so used to short form

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Speaker 4: content and then going to long form it was like

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Speaker 4: a whole different thing. Like I had just learned to

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Speaker 4: stop butting in in front of people and like you know, so, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's definitely a skill in itself, and there's been a

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Speaker 4: lot of learning curves.

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Speaker 5: But I'm loving the process, you know, I'm enjoying it.

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Speaker 3: And do you.

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Speaker 2: Use what goes off on TikTok to inform the decisions

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Speaker 2: you make for the podcast?

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Speaker 4: Not necessarily like in sometimes sometimes I'll just, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: elaborate more on a story, like say if because you

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Speaker 4: know on TikTok you probably want like a couple.

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Speaker 5: Of minutes max.

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Speaker 4: But in the longer form content I could just elaborate

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Speaker 4: more and go into detail.

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Speaker 2: I speaking of detail, I needed to touch on Peggy Sue.

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Speaker 2: So there may be people I don't know, maybe Gary,

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Speaker 2: who doesn't know the Peggy Sue story. Kayla, could you

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Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't know, could you just give a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a summary of the Peggy su dominum.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so he's an old client of mine who

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Speaker 4: I don't know how we can get on him. So

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Speaker 4: obviously I see clients for work, and he was one

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Speaker 4: of my clients that likes to do little things in

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Speaker 4: the behind region. And yeah, obviously you know taken some

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Speaker 4: decent sized members up there, and yeah, we're just chat

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Speaker 4: about it on my TikTok and apparently people they listening

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Speaker 4: to it.

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Speaker 2: So and there are a lot of theories about who

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Speaker 2: Peggy su is, and one in particular that I won't

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Speaker 2: say because I don't know if I can say it

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Speaker 2: legally in this room.

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Speaker 5: I don't know if I can.

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Speaker 2: Who knows what we can Actually Gary probably knows what

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Speaker 2: we can say legally. He'll arrest us.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say. I think I don't want

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Speaker 3: to get the call the guest.

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Speaker 2: But you did an episode about Peggy Su on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: What could you say in that format that was different

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Speaker 2: to TikTok And why do you think people were going

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Speaker 2: there as opposed to the shorter kind of narrative that

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Speaker 2: was happening elsewhere.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I guess he was on the TikTok, Like

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Speaker 4: we didn't specifically see him, but he was there answering questions.

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Speaker 4: I did like a Q and A on my Instagram, like,

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Speaker 4: what do you want to talk to Peggy Sew about?

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Speaker 4: And then I just asked him a bunch of questions

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Speaker 4: and yeah, it's just there's been a lot of speculation

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Speaker 4: on who it is, but I can either confirm or deny.

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Speaker 2: I love it if you if you want to know

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Speaker 2: what that speculation is, go on TikTok. It's so fun.

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Speaker 2: Both of you have really stood out in a crowded

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Speaker 2: podcast landscape, and my theory is that it's because both

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Speaker 2: of you bring lived experience and a certain depth to

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Speaker 2: this space that other creators might not so Gary. For example,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: true crime podcasts an insane amount, and there are journalists interviewing,

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Speaker 2: there are amateurs, there are there are comedians doing true

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Speaker 2: crime podcasts. But there's something very, very different about a

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Speaker 2: crime podcast that is led by a former detective. What

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Speaker 2: do you think it is that you're able to offer

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Speaker 2: that other people can't.

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Speaker 1: Well, I suppose I'd be a slave learner if I

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Speaker 1: spent twenty years investigating homicide and not sort of picking

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Speaker 1: up on things. I can speak the language, I can

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Speaker 1: speak the language of the detectives. If I've got police officers,

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Speaker 1: I understand the world. They understand the culture. I also

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Speaker 1: with the bad guys, I can speak their language. That

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Speaker 1: was half the time was spent with cops, half the

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Speaker 1: time spent with bad guys.

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Speaker 3: They're the people that you chase.

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Speaker 1: They understood where I was coming from, and I understood

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Speaker 1: where they were coming from. And then with the victims,

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Speaker 1: I don't think unless you see the pain that's associated

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Speaker 1: with the people dealing with murder. And quite often I'd

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Speaker 1: meet these people by knocking on the door and informing

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Speaker 1: them that their loved one has been killed, and it

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Speaker 1: sticks with you that emotion. So when I'm speaking two

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Speaker 1: victims of crime, which we have a lot on, they

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Speaker 1: understand that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it, and I look after them.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of where we take the podcast, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's just that's the layer that I give

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Speaker 1: with the experience to a true crime podcast, I do

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Speaker 1: understand the world. And I was a little bit reluctant

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Speaker 1: at the start with true crime podcasts because I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to glorify crime. And I made a real strong

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Speaker 1: point of saying I want to show crime three sixty

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Speaker 1: like three sixty it's not all black and white. There's

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Speaker 1: good guys, bad guys, and there's all combinations, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of pain associated with crime. And I don't

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Speaker 1: take it flippantly when I'm talking to victims. But having

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Speaker 1: said that, and we're all sitting here tense, you do

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Speaker 1: have permission to laugh. I've had people on the podcasts

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Speaker 1: that have had their family murdered, and we can sit

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Speaker 1: there and we can laugh, and people might be looking

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Speaker 1: from the outside, going, what the hell's going on?

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Speaker 2: Is?

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Speaker 1: How insensitive is this talking to this family and making

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Speaker 1: a joke. But you've got to see some light in

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Speaker 1: the darkness, and that's again a skill I suppose you

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Speaker 1: pick up working in that area for as long as

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Speaker 1: long as I did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the reason people lean in so

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Speaker 2: hard to your podcast is because it's almost behind the scenes,

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Speaker 2: Like everyone wants to know what it's like when police interview,

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Speaker 2: when they speak to victims, how they deliver information to

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Speaker 2: victims when they speak to criminals. What kind of techniques

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Speaker 2: from interviewing as in your time in the police do

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Speaker 2: you bring to the podcast that you think journalists, for example,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't necessarily have.

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Speaker 1: You can't underestimate the pregnant pause. You ask someone the

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Speaker 1: question and just sit there and stare at them, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like you'd be there, sooner or later they're

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Speaker 1: going to talk. So that's part of it. When you're

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Speaker 1: sitting down with someone, knowledge is power, and like if

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Speaker 1: you've done your research before you're sitting down with the guests,

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Speaker 1: that helps. And you might read a whole book and

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Speaker 1: that you might be referring to anything in the book

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Speaker 1: other than that's right. When you were seven you fell

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Speaker 1: off the bike and you can see the guests all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden go, You've spent the time to prepare

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Speaker 1: for this, You've shown me respect, and then invariably they'll

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Speaker 1: provide more information. And also you've got to laugh at yourself.

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Speaker 1: You've got to reveal a little bit about yourself. So

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Speaker 1: if you're asking an embarrassing question of them, sometimes to

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Speaker 1: make them feel comfortable in exchange of stupid stories, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've done this and done that. So that makes it

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Speaker 1: feel equal and they feel comfortable and you keep that

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Speaker 1: conversation going.

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Speaker 2: I think that's something in media that's really coming out

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Speaker 2: in podcasting that mainstream media is, you know, and obviously

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Speaker 2: NewsCorp has been a huge supporter of your work. But

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Speaker 2: podcasting allows for these diverse voices and different types of

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Speaker 2: people with different types of backgrounds to tell stories. And Kayla,

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Speaker 2: you are able to embrace storytelling in a way that

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Speaker 2: really really resonates with women in particular. And I would say,

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Speaker 2: is it overwhelmingly women who are the audience for your show?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, about ninety percent? Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And why do you think women are so fascinated by you,

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Speaker 2: not even just at a surface level, but will lean

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Speaker 2: in harder and harder and harder the more you have

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Speaker 2: to share.

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Speaker 4: I guess it's because, like I've just I mean since

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Speaker 4: I started this TikTok, I've always just tried to be

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Speaker 4: myself as much as possible and just you know, share

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Speaker 4: what's going on with my day, like how I'm feeling,

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Speaker 4: you know, the downsides and the good sides like and

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Speaker 4: I think just sharing that realness like resonated with a

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Speaker 4: lot of women.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, do you think that having the background that

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Speaker 2: you do, is there any like are there transferable skills

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Speaker 2: like things from having worked in sex work? And I

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Speaker 2: imagine you become tough and resilient and you are fiercely

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Speaker 2: independent and you know what your boundaries are. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that has helped in podcasting?

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Speaker 4: I think so, Like I talk a lot about like

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Speaker 4: my boundaries and even like you know, female hygiene and

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Speaker 4: everything that a lot of sex workers know a lot about,

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Speaker 4: so I think they come to me for information and

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Speaker 4: stuff as well.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything because I think the other thing people

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Speaker 2: lean into is how open and you don't seem self

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Speaker 2: conscious or shy about talking about these things that so

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Speaker 2: many people could never talk about. Has there ever been

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Speaker 2: anything that you have not wanted to talk about in

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Speaker 2: the realm of sex work or the realm of your

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Speaker 2: experiences there?

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Speaker 4: I think I talk about pretty much everything that's like

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Speaker 4: in TikTok guidelines as much as I can share. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I could talk about a whole lot more, but I'd

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Speaker 4: probably get canceled off YouTube or whatever. So yeah, there's

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Speaker 4: nothing that I hold back from other than I guess

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Speaker 4: private family life. That would probably be the only thing.

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Speaker 2: With podcasting do you have to be careful what you

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Speaker 2: talk about for sponsorships?

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Speaker 4: For brandomly, it's been a learning curve because I thought

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, a podcast would be great for like,

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Speaker 4: you know, I can be more uncensored and talk more like,

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Speaker 4: you know, without making up words like you know, Shlondon

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Speaker 4: for condom or whatever. So I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I can do that, but then as soon as you

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Speaker 4: put on YouTube, it's like, no, you can't say this,

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Speaker 4: you can't say that. So yeah, learning all those curves.

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Speaker 2: But know, and what kind of things do clients flag

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Speaker 2: that they don't want you to go near?

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Speaker 5: Is it surprising?

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Speaker 7: Ah?

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Speaker 4: Just anything like I always stay clear of anything personal.

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Speaker 4: You know, I wouldn't say anything about their personal life

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Speaker 4: or where they work or you know, describe them too

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Speaker 4: much or anything.

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Speaker 5: I'm always very careful with that.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, because I am like, your podcast has got

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Speaker 2: such a huge audience, and one thing that is a

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Speaker 2: challenge for podcasting generally is kind of getting advertisers on

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Speaker 2: board to see to lean into the audience rather than

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Speaker 2: the content, Like they don't need to they don't need

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Speaker 2: to be pro anal in order to be pro Kayla

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Speaker 2: Jad's audience. Yes, and so when you've had conversations like

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Speaker 2: have you had big advertisers.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes we have.

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Speaker 4: But obviously there's still a lot of stigma behind sex works.

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Speaker 4: So we're slowly breaking that now narrative, like people speaking

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Speaker 4: out and talking about it more.

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Speaker 6: So.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had a few advertisers that I've been like,

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Speaker 4: oh my gosh, like this is so exciting.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, it's a fun journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for both of you, like also being

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Speaker 2: doing content that's around crime, advertisers can get really really

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Speaker 2: scared of it. And it's really interesting because it's where

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Speaker 2: the audiences are, Like, it's where it's you know, You've

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Speaker 2: got a million streams in a month and most most

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Speaker 2: podcasters couldn't even imagine that. And I think it's sort

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Speaker 2: of a journey that audiences are making the journey and

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Speaker 2: a lot of advertisers are sort of just behind. You

415
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Speaker 2: both have a wealth of experience in your respective field,

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Speaker 2: and I do. I sort of touched on this with you, Kayla.

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Speaker 2: But Gary, have there been any other apart from those

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Speaker 2: interview skills, any other transferable skills from police work into

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Speaker 2: podcastingh a thick skin.

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Speaker 1: I suppose it was when I got in the podcasting

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Speaker 1: I didn't really like when I was in the police.

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Speaker 1: I had a profile when I was in the police,

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Speaker 1: so I was used to being.

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Speaker 3: In the media.

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Speaker 1: But if people didn't like me that was okay because

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Speaker 1: I was a cop and yeah, I'm just doing my job.

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Speaker 1: And then when I told my kids, I said, I'm

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Speaker 1: doing a podcast, and they probably had more of a

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Speaker 1: sense of what podcasting was than I did, and they're going, oh,

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Speaker 1: if you go bad, you're going to get smashed on

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Speaker 1: social media. I've gone social media. What social media? Then,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I would have had the courage to

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Speaker 1: do a podcast if I realized how vulnerable you are

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Speaker 1: in the media that you put yourself out there and

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Speaker 1: the criticism. As I said in the Cops, fine, I'm

436
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Speaker 1: not being paid to be liked or listened to. Then

437
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Speaker 1: in the media, and you could get a hundred great

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Speaker 1: comments and you get one negative comment, you go, oh shit,

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00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: some of them the negative comments are right, I've got

440
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: to admit, which is quite but you the I've become

441
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 1: accustomed to it now, like if I polarize people, someone's

442
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: always got an opinion. But that's what I do really

443
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: like about the podcast world. There's so many people. And

444
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: it leads me back to when I left the Cops.

445
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: There was headlines of corrupt cop and all sorts of things,

446
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: and it was hard to take. But now I've got something.

447
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: It's not only the audience deciding what they think of

448
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: the guests. The audience can form their own view about me,

449
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: So you know that's something. And I look at Dylan

450
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: over there in the corner and from made in Katana,

451
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: and Dylan was actually at the pub for the first session,

452
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: and I think the first next couple of sessions, And

453
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad I gave up drinking during the during the

454
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: podcast because we started at eight o'clock in the morning.

455
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: Let's have one or two schooners with the ex cop

456
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: this is season one, who I hadn't seen for five

457
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: or six years.

458
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 3: Let's have another one.

459
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: And I think Dylan board in the rule no more

460
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: than three because we got bit sloppy then. And then

461
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: after we've finished the podcast at about twelve o'clock, it

462
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: looks like it's lunch time. Who wants a drink? I

463
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: couldn't have kept it up. I only did eight episodes

464
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: of season one.

465
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: I would have been a.

466
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: Dead set alcoholic. I was lasted by two o'clock in

467
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: the afternoon, so that had a short shelf life. So

468
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,479
Speaker 1: I'm glad we stop that.

469
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: I think more podcasts with alcohol would be It would

470
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: be my vibe, Kayla, What skills from because you've kind

471
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: of got these dual career paths where there's I guess

472
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: the more private part of being a sex worker, but

473
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: what you've done on social media is a career in itself.

474
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: Building that level of an online profile is a full

475
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: time job. What kind of skills from that have transferred

476
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: into creating your own podcast?

477
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: I guess just being myself online, you know, sharing my

478
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 4: story has always been easy for me.

479
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, how does it work working with a producer?

480
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: It's different, Like it's I've kind of come into the

481
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 4: podcast world doing something a little bit different, Like I

482
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 4: always wanted it to sort of be just at home,

483
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 4: like in my comfy outfits, like just chilling, like a

484
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 4: good vibe, rather than being like in studio, you know,

485
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: producers and cameramen. So yeah, it's kind of always been

486
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: a chill vibe, which is good.

487
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 2: Because I was going to say that you a lot

488
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 2: of your videos for the pod will be you in say, pajamas,

489
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: no makeup on and talking. Yeah, and that is very

490
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,479
Speaker 2: very different to I feel like podcasts have gone quite

491
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: heavy in terms of video production, and people are in

492
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: fancy studios and the lighting's great.

493
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 5: And I tried that and I couldn't do it.

494
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 2: Really.

495
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I tried it for a couple I was like,

496
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 5: this is not me. How come?

497
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 4: I just want to be at home comfy, you know,

498
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 4: and I'm doing I do a lot of it solo,

499
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: so it just made sense for me to just be

500
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 4: at home chilling.

501
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: I think it also adds to the intimacy though, as

502
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: a listener and for socials, it stands out like there

503
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: are a lot of very very polished podcasts and that

504
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: kind of adds to what people lean into. And Gary,

505
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: as you said, like the fact that you're releasing an

506
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: unedited conversation where you might be a little bit sloppy

507
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: by the end, that's novel for people for people to hear. Gary,

508
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: do you think podcasting has a unique power when it

509
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: comes to rewriting the narrative? Because, as you said, you

510
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 2: were at this kind of critical time in going from

511
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: policing to more of a media career. Do you think

512
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: podcasting was really important to lean into because of what

513
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: it offered you.

514
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sort of evolved.

515
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: I didn't realize what it presented when I first started.

516
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: But what I'm really proud of eye catch killers because

517
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: when I was in the cops.

518
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 3: Like you get a.

519
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,719
Speaker 1: Case, you did work the case, hopefully catch the offender,

520
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: and then move on to the next one. So you

521
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: didn't really have time to think about what causes crime.

522
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: Some of the things I'm most proud about because I

523
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: still had a passion for fighting crime like I did

524
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 1: in the cops. We've a gun and handcuffs, but after leaving,

525
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: where do I put this passion. Now we've fallen into

526
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: a space where we're working with corrective services. We've done

527
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: a series when I went into prison, restorative justice with

528
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: young offenders, indigenous issues. We've had it to the point

529
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: where politicians are asking to come on the podcast, and

530
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: if the cops haven't done the investigation.

531
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: Right, we go. We criticize the cops, and you know,

532
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: it's not just an attack.

533
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: I love policing. But the thing that I'm probably most

534
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: proud of is I've had some notorious criminals on the podcast.

535
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: You know, the gangs, pipes, the real heavy dudes and murderers, escapes,

536
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: that type of thing. When you hear their story where

537
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: they came from, it really it's changed my perspective on

538
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: what crime is all about. And I look at them upbringing,

539
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: some of the upbringings that these people have had. Who

540
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: am I to judge what they've done with their life?

541
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: And I love the story of redemption. So when those

542
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: guys turn their life around, guys and girls we've had

543
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: quite a few from all sorts of crime, it makes

544
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: me feel good that we're doing some good and it's

545
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: putting out a strong message that no matter how low

546
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: your life is, you can actually turn it around. So

547
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: platforms like that really surprise me. But I think you

548
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: can do that in a podcast narrative as distinct from

549
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: the media, because I also work in all aspects of

550
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: the media with television shows, print media, that type of thing,

551
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: and there's a limited space to how you can get

552
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: that message across. But in the podcast world, if we

553
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: want to record for four hours, we'll just sit there

554
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: and record for four hours. If the conversation's flowing, it

555
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: doesn't matter.

556
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: And I think that's something people really find fascinating about.

557
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: I catch killers that you find yourself having empathy for

558
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: people you didn't expect to have empathy for. Has that

559
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: been a journey coming out of policing. When you're speaking

560
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 2: to somebody who's done a very bad thing, and you

561
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: no longer are responsible for you know, you're not trying

562
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: to get them to confess things you're not. The power

563
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: dynamic has shifted a little bit. Has your empathy changed

564
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: for them?

565
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that I had empathy when I

566
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: was in the cops, and that was I think I

567
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: carried it through. But the empathy spread for the victims,

568
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: the people that've been impacted by the crime, not so

569
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: much of the crooks because the level that I was

570
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: working at, you move on from one job to a

571
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: next and you don't give it much thought. I developed

572
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: relationships with criminal informants and I got to understand a

573
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: little bit more about the criminal world. But with the

574
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: people I have on the podcast, and some of them

575
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: have got no regrets. I asked you, you must feel

576
00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: bad about the people you stabbed, and one particular guest said, no,

577
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm just not going to stab anyone again

578
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: because I don't want to.

579
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: Go back to jail. But there's lots of people I

580
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: want to stab.

581
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that wasn't a type of messaging I was

582
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: looking for, but we'll run with it. But in the

583
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: same regards, people got to hear what that was about

584
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: I'm not there to control the narrative. I want people

585
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: to talk about the real world. That's the real world,

586
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: and I like to create it. When I'm speaking to

587
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: the cops, the victims, or the gangsters and the bad

588
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: guys and women, this is the real world. This is

589
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: what this world is about. So there's no filtering and

590
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: we talk like that and it creates for quite an

591
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: interesting discussion. But I think with both podcasts and you

592
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: talk about the life experience and that there's an honesty

593
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: and authenticity. And when you mentioned like advertising, I think

594
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: they miss the point. Like advertisers go, oh, well, it's

595
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: a true crime podcast. You glorifying crime. We are so

596
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: far from glorifying crime. It's not funny. What we're doing

597
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: is explaining what crime is about, trying to reduce crime

598
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things, and there's an authenticity of

599
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: the guests that come on, and I think advertisers miss

600
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: that and that rawness and honesty. We all want to

601
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: look into a world that most of us don't get

602
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: to see exactly.

603
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are really connecting with that. When there's a

604
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: lot that's very very surface level and there's so much

605
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: content out there, it's that authenticity that is standing out,

606
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: and that's something with your career and your experiences that

607
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: has always stood out that you're saying, this is what

608
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: I do this like I did this yesterday. This is

609
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: an experience I just had. How do your clients feel

610
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: about the public facing side of what you do?

611
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: It's like, I've definitely lost a few clients because of it,

612
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 4: because obviously I'm so open and honest, but as well,

613
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 4: there's a few clients that definitely enjoy me talking about

614
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 4: them online. You know, they get a little bit of

615
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 4: a kick out of it. So yeah, it's kind of

616
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 4: opposite spectrums. Either they are like not for it, they

617
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 4: leave me, or they want to come back.

618
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, need to start charging for talking about people.

619
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's clearly like it like a little

620
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: too much. Yeah, has it been good? Because I like,

621
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: sometimes I watch your content and I think, oh my god,

622
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: this is so clever because if I was a man

623
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: who wanted a lady friend, this is great discoverability. Like,

624
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: have you found that it helps in that Like does

625
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: being Australia's most famous sex worker help with business? In

626
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: the sense that it must be weird because you get

627
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: comments from people being like I love your authenticity, I

628
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: love your story. Do you then get dms from people

629
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: being like, what time are you available?

630
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 4: No, I actually have the opposite. Yeah, I feel like

631
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 4: I used to be more busier when I didn't talk

632
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 4: about it, which is a little bit of a downside

633
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 4: of it, I guess, But I mean it's created more

634
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 4: pathways for me, so you know. But yeah, I still

635
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 4: get the odds.

636
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 5: Your client that wants to have fun, yeah, so yeah.

637
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 2: And wants and is happy to play, and it's.

638
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 5: Happy to be out there and open about it. Yeah. Yeah.

639
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: I'm interested in this from a personal perspective because on

640
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: my podcast The Pylon, I speak to people who have

641
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: had their reputations attacked, sometimes destroyed, who have had to

642
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: deal with the annihilation of their character online. Both of

643
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: you have, in different ways experienced attacks on your reputation online.

644
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: With podcasting, there can be a lot of a lot

645
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 2: of feedback that you get. Gary, do you read reviews?

646
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: I used to, and I know the narrative and anyone

647
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: that's in this area don't worry about the reviews, but

648
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: I would. I love reading the good ones. Well it's great,

649
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: then there's one fuck, So yeah, I do. But it's

650
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: becoming less and less impact. And I don't read them

651
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 1: morbile time. And if someone you know the name of

652
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: the podcast Pylon. If someone makes a negative comment, then

653
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: ten other people making the comment. And I think, and

654
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: this was a good lesson for me, my kids and

655
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 1: they're not kids now, they're adults. But there was someone

656
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 1: that really attacked me. It was just spiteful or whatever.

657
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: And I go have a look at this, and they

658
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: did their little research on who this knucklehead is and gone,

659
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: this is the person you're worried about.

660
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: Gone, you're kidding. Just a drop kick.

661
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:47,439
Speaker 6: But yeah, but yeah, and you know, we all learn

662
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 6: like sometimes the comments are legitimate, and Dylan can attest

663
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 6: to this, and Dell, I.

664
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: Tell you a skill in podcasting in the interview room.

665
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: If I'm speaking to someone, I'm sitting there asking a question,

666
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for the response. When they're talking, I'm encouraging

667
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: him someone that yeah yeah, and then yeah yeah. A

668
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: couple of I don't want the facts and figures to

669
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: come out, Dylan, but a couple of the early podcasts

670
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: before and I didn't even know what the producer was.

671
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: It was just.

672
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: Where we were doing things. I would say, yes, I

673
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: reckon two hundred thousand times.

674
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 5: Me would like, like exaggeration.

675
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: So it got to the point where I would draw

676
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: a big D on my hands. So when idiot was

677
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: starting to go, yeah, yeah, what's that end doing?

678
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 3: All right, keep your mouth shut. I've I've got better

679
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 3: at it.

680
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: But I find when I'm really comfortable with someone and

681
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: the barriers are breaking down, you wait to go out

682
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: next time you're talking to a friend and just be

683
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: mindful how many times you go yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

684
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: And once you notice it.

685
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 3: You were saying, like time when I watched.

686
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 4: Myself, like why did I do that?

687
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 7: Yeah?

688
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: You just cream.

689
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 4: But it's because you're like it's like you're having a

690
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 4: conversation with your friends, so you're just natural and that's

691
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 4: how you naturally speak.

692
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 5: But with podcasting, it's like a whole different language that

693
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 5: you have to learn. And your producer will yeah, but

694
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 5: that's a good idea.

695
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 3: I might have to use that for me.

696
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: Oh I'm going to do that hat because yeah, my

697
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: producer is like, I can't cut it out because it'll

698
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: be that the other person's talking a little bit while

699
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 2: I'm saying it. So she's like, there's no way to

700
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: edit this. You're just annoying, and I'm like, I'm so sorry,

701
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. It's it is very Yet when you

702
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: listen back, you're like, oh god, Kayla. Do you read

703
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: podcast reviews?

704
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 3: Ah?

705
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes I think it's good to read, like not

706
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 4: all the time obviously because you'll get hung up on it,

707
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: but it's good to read negative comments in a way

708
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 4: because it's like, oh, Okay, that's how I learned that

709
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 4: I was saying, like too much, you know, like you

710
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 4: learn it so you can improve, I guess in a way.

711
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: Ah, there's certain things that you read that podcast reviews

712
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: or on TikTok that do get to you, because I

713
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: find there are certain things that I'm like yeah, fair,

714
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: and other things that I'm like, ooh, if I read

715
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: that every day, I just go in a hole and quit.

716
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 4: I think it's when people talk about my kids or

717
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 4: like how I am as a mother just because I

718
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 4: don't show them online doesn't mean you know, the living

719
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 4: in a different home with someone else, like they're very

720
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 4: much around, Like I just don't show them online. And

721
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 4: I think people take that as like, oh, she must

722
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 4: be a bad mother, she must you know, spend no

723
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 4: time with her kids and you know, so, yeah, there's

724
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 4: little comments like that that I have to really ignore

725
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: because otherwise I'll get really heated. But yeah, most of

726
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 4: the time, I'm like, h it doesn't phaze me because

727
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 4: I feel like I've lived a whole life before I

728
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 4: started this, So now it's kind of like you can

729
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 4: say what you want to me, Like, I don't really care.

730
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: You know, how about the stigma against sex work. Do

731
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: you feel like you get faced with that.

732
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 4: I don't think so, Like, it's definitely come a long way,

733
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 4: like in the last ten years, like like just talking

734
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 4: about sex work has been huge for sex work, So

735
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 4: I think of anything like, we're progressing very well.

736
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: So hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Whant they get

737
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: more out of Ketch Killers? Then you should head over

738
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify where you can

739
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: watch every episode of Ketch Killers. Just search for I

740
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching.

741
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,240
Speaker 3: Today.

742
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: You said something interesting on I think it was on

743
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: TikTok about how in the early days you used to

744
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: like when I first started following you, you used to

745
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: like count your money and that was it was there

746
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: was something really relaxing about watching.

747
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 5: You count cash.

748
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't think cash. Yeah, you just

749
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 2: had like all these dollar bills and I was like,

750
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: oh my god, get it. But you don't do that anymore. No,

751
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 2: and you've talked about why why is that?

752
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 4: I guess for me, like as my platform grew, I

753
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 4: had to really like think about, you know, being a

754
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 4: role model and what I was putting out there online.

755
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 4: So just with you know, young people scrolling through TikTok,

756
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 4: they might see my money count videos and be like,

757
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, she makes so much money online, but

758
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 4: they're not realized like what I actually had to do

759
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: to get that money.

760
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 5: So I guess I just wanted to kind of limit,

761
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 5: you know what.

762
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 4: Like I was still putting out the downsides of the industry,

763
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 4: but not everyone sits and scrolls through every video.

764
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 5: So it was just being more.

765
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 4: Mindful, like as my page grew, like hey, maybe not

766
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 4: do that. And also just personal safety and safety of

767
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 4: other sex workers. I felt like, you know, probably don't

768
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 4: want everyone knowing that we're carrying a bunch of cash around.

769
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. That's the thing about creating content online,

770
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 2: creating podcasts, you are learning in real.

771
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just being a adaptive you know, if

772
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 4: something doesn't work or if you get criticism from something

773
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 4: like you know, adapting.

774
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you do. You do have to kind of

775
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: do that in public and that can be It's different

776
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: to other kinds of work where you get feedback hopefully

777
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: in a more private environment and you can lick your

778
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 2: wounds and move on.

779
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

780
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,879
Speaker 2: How do you I guess when you are doing storytime

781
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: with Kayla Jaide, how do you kind of navigate what

782
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: is really for podcasting versus what's for anything else? Like

783
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: there is there anything when you look at the future

784
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 2: of story time, what's the trajectory you see it going

785
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: in and what's kind of the niche and the like

786
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 2: the little space you want to carve out for this

787
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: particular show.

788
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess just you know, destigmatizing sex work in

789
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 4: a way, you know, showing people that we are real

790
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 4: people and you know, we're not just objects that are

791
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 4: for sex. Like, we have a lot to talk about

792
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 4: and you know, a lot of information. So just carving

793
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 4: out that lane a little bit.

794
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: And Gary for I catch Killers, where do you see

795
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: it going? Where do you see the future of the show.

796
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: I'd like to like broaden it.

797
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: Like the main theme is crime and will always come

798
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: come back to crime, but sometimes it gets so heavy,

799
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: like we've had bad guy victims, this.

800
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: Police talking horrible, horrible crimes.

801
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes I say, we just got to have fun and

802
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: so I get you know, I might get a comedian on.

803
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 1: The comedian might be have a drug issue in the

804
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: past or different things, and just like lightening it up.

805
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: We've had quite a few sex workers on the show

806
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: and we sit down and we have a good fun

807
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: conversation and people enjoy that, and so yeah, we're broadening

808
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: it out. And anyone with an interesting story, that's what

809
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: maytivates me in the podcast. If there's someone that's got

810
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: an interesting story, I love to hear their stories. So

811
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: we'll still stay true to crime, but we'll branch out

812
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: a little bit more and explore the world and people

813
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: who have got interesting stories, because that's sometimes I have

814
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: guests on that haven't got the profile and I'm thinking, Oh,

815
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: what's going to happen here, And I'm just blown away

816
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: by this person's story just the way they deliver their story.

817
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: And it might be something that we know about, but

818
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 1: it's something that's deeply personal. That's unique to them, and

819
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: I find that fascinating and giving the audience the respect

820
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: that they can form their own views. I'm not going

821
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: to judge anyone for what they've done in their life,

822
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: just like I don't want to be judged for what

823
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: I've done in my life. And I heard you say that,

824
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, with the social media and all that, Well,

825
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: this is who I am, and that's the sort of

826
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: attitude I've got. If you don't like me, you don't

827
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: like me. I can't help that. But I know who

828
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: I am, and I think you probably go through the

829
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: same thing.

830
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: And I think that's why podcasting is such a special

831
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: space to be in because people are opting in. It's

832
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: not it's different to socials in that, you know, Kaylor,

833
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: you might end up every now and then on the

834
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: wrong side of TikTok, where you're like, Okay, who are

835
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: these people? I don't know how I ended up in

836
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 2: your fore page? Whereas with podcasting people, I always think

837
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: no one hate listens to a podcast. If people are

838
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: listening to Gary Jublin, it's because they bloody love this

839
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: show and they want to hear what he has to say.

840
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,919
Speaker 2: If people are listening to Kayla Jake, people just don't

841
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 2: have time to like well. But then sometimes you read

842
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: the reviews and you're like, oh, wow, no they do.

843
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 2: But for the most part, and I think that's also

844
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: why people feel safer like guests, because it's far less

845
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: likely that there is going to be a snippet of

846
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: what they say that ends up in the daily mail,

847
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: because it's bloody hard to sit there and transcribe a

848
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: whole podcast interview as opposed to, you know, a piece

849
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 2: in the paper where there might just be a quote.

850
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: I want to know, Kayla, what is the biggest lesson

851
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: you've learnt from podcasting? And it has been a short

852
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 2: time for you, but I imagine it's been a very

853
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: steep learning curve and a quick trajectory because the growth

854
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: has been so phenomenal. But what's the biggest learning.

855
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 4: Just always having like a space that's outside of the

856
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 4: online life, you know, that you can retreat to if

857
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 4: it does get too much. Just having that little, you know,

858
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 4: space where it's whether it's a hobby or like family

859
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: or friends that you can just go to if you

860
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 4: need to.

861
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: That's really that's really clever, And it's also kind of

862
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: future proofing because you know how every now and then

863
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: there'll be a rumor that they're like they're going to

864
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: shut down TikTok, and you're like, well, I have a

865
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: really popular podcast, so it doesn't matter so much. Gary,

866
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: what have you learned from podcasting?

867
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: I've probably learned the importance of storytelling And that sounds

868
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: a bit dramatic, but letting people tell their stories. I

869
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 1: think the world's an interesting place. And you know, I've

870
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: had some people that have had Tom Carroll, the two

871
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,839
Speaker 1: times World surfing champion, on the podcast, I said I

872
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: had pictures in my bedroom when I was growing up

873
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: as a teenager, like so many interesting stories, and I

874
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: just love being able to give people a platform to

875
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: tell their story and also educate people through that whether

876
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: they buy into it or not about Okay, let's not

877
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: judge every person that's in jail as a bad person.

878
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: Let's look at what got them there and things that happened.

879
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 1: And when we talk crime, the politicians might be dramatic

880
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,959
Speaker 1: about cutting down on crime, going hard on crime, we'll

881
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: have discussions about is that the right way to do

882
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,760
Speaker 1: it or is there other alternatives, you know, different forms

883
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: of imprisonment, that type of thing. So Yeah, storytelling if

884
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: it all came down to that, Because sometimes I wake

885
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: up and think, what's the purpose of my day. If

886
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: I'm preparing for a podcast, I think, well, there's an

887
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: important story to be told and people might learn from

888
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: because I don't think there's a guess that I've had

889
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: on the podcast that I haven't walked away a little

890
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: bit wiser. Yeah, picked up something or learned something from them.

891
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: I think that's important.

892
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think in both of your cases, there's

893
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: so much psychological research about how the antidote to stigma,

894
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: the thing that builds empathy, the thing that builds connection,

895
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 2: is just exposure to different kinds of people. Like so

896
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: much of our prejudice is because we're simply we're simply

897
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: not hearing or connecting with the kinds of people that

898
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: might be outside our circle. And both of you offer

899
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: these behind the scenes windows into that. Like, Kayla, there

900
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: are probably a lot of people who have never met

901
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: a sex worker and they get to have this emotional

902
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: connection with you and they're like, hold on, I really

903
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 2: like this person. I respect this person that goes against

904
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: all my prejudices. And Gary By, you know, all the

905
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 2: people you're interviewing as well as being a former copy yourself,

906
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: and people might have stigma about that. They go, oh,

907
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: I really like this guy. It seems really nice. He

908
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: doesn't seem scary. I thought I was meant to be

909
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: scared of police.

910
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: You are.

911
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: I'd like to be interviewed by Gary. I think I

912
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: think we'd be friends. I wanted to open up for

913
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: the last few minutes for any questions that anyone has

914
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: for these guys, or about podcasting or anything. We've even

915
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: got a mic.

916
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 3: Thank you, Hi, thank you so much.

917
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: My question is probably for you Gary, and maybe even

918
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: for yourself, Claire.

919
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 8: What do you do to prepare before you interview someone?

920
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: And how long? I without giving the way trade secrets.

921
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: I read a lot of books, Like if someone's got

922
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: a book out, I'll read the book and then I

923
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: really knuckle down closest to the time when I know

924
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: the podcast, I will script a framework in the way

925
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: I think the podcast should run. Sometimes the easiest podcast

926
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: where a put my notes down don't have to refer

927
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: to the one because it just flows.

928
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 3: But I have that as a safeguard.

929
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: If I get in there and I ask a question

930
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: and I say to Kayla, Hi, do you want to

931
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: talk about your career and she goes no, and then Okay,

932
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: well you've got to have a fallback, So I have

933
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: a list there. I color cod that as stupid as

934
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: it sounds. It's a little bit of type of preparation

935
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: that I would do before I go into interview at

936
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: a suspect, but just the preparation, have all the information

937
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: in there. But I've only I've got limited capacity, so

938
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: I tend to have a guest and then I'm into

939
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: my next guest and I can't remember who I did

940
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: the week before. So yeah, that's the prep.

941
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've stressed me out because I have two

942
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: interviews back to back tomorrow morning that I haven't started

943
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: prepping for, but I will be prepping so late tonight.

944
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: You have no idea. And like listening, I find even

945
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: with these guys, if you're interviewing someone for a podcast,

946
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: listening to previous podcast interviews is so good because not

947
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: only do you just I really absorb information in an

948
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 2: audio format, but you just get a vibe of who

949
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: they are, and then when you go into a room,

950
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 2: you feel like you already know them. Like with both

951
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: of you, I'm like I know you guys, like you're

952
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 2: not strangers, Kayla. You've been interviewing people as well, and

953
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 2: that is a totally new thing. But it's really really new. Yeah,

954
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 2: how are you going about it?

955
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 5: I'm going all right, I'm going all right.

956
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 4: I had to learn to stop butting in because my

957
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: ADHD I just want to like, That's how I connect

958
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 4: with people, is they just like, oh my god, you

959
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 4: like this too, let's talk about it. But I guess

960
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 4: in an audio format that's not exactly nice to listen to.

961
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 5: So I had to.

962
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 4: Really like just calm down and like really listen to what,

963
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 4: you know, the persons saying.

964
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, that restraint is the hardest thing because

965
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: you get really excited.

966
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 5: I just want to say this one thing.

967
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, someone will mention something halfway through a sentence and

968
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't want to, but I really need

969
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: to know what I'm thinking.

970
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 4: About it, and I can't stop thinking about it until.

971
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: Can I just add Sometimes the criticism is that, oh,

972
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: you're telling your stories, but this is what people don't understand.

973
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: These are the ones I want to respond back to.

974
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 1: If I just sat there and asked a series of

975
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: questions and didn't have a conversation the conversation doesn't fly,

976
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: and you sometimes and if you haven't, I'm sure you

977
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: will be and you would have been criticized. Oh you're

978
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: making the podcast about yourself. That's how you get a

979
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: conversation flowing, That's how it rolls on. And they're the

980
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: ones I want to respond to. I just don't know

981
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: how to respond on social media, but.

982
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 2: I know, I know, no response, Yeah, yeah.

983
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 5: Thank you.

984
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 3: Hi.

985
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 8: My question was obviously for all of you. Your podcast

986
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 8: concepts are such great concepts, but how do you know

987
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 8: each episode's going to land in such a crowded space,

988
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 8: like do you know fim.

989
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 5: Land with the audience?

990
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: Even if your last one did, how do you know

991
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: the next one?

992
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 7: Well?

993
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, Gary, Joanna.

994
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 3: Look, I think that you build up the audience like that.

995
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 3: That helps.

996
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: It's a loyalty to the audience. And I've been confused

997
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 1: sometimes when I've had big overseas guests, like really these

998
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: are you know Donny Brasca, the real Donnie Brasca and

999
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: have him on the podcast. I'm thinking everyone's going to

1000
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: be interested in this. We get the listeners, but I

1001
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of local content. And sometimes I

1002
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: have guests overseas guests so that the audience don't buy

1003
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: into it as much because they don't relate. And then

1004
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: you get others that you think, oh, that's not going

1005
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: to be really interesting, and they just jump on it.

1006
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: So you build up the listeners, you stay true, you

1007
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: try things, and sometimes you take a risk and it

1008
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, other times it does.

1009
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 4: That's totally It's like my online content, like, you know,

1010
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 4: some videos will go viral that I completely didn't think

1011
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 4: we're going to go viral. So I think it's just

1012
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 4: staying true to yourself and you know what you want

1013
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 4: to talk about, and your followers will listen to.

1014
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 2: What's been the most popular episode of your podcast so far, Kayler?

1015
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: Is it the launch where you talked about.

1016
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 5: I think family.

1017
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I try not to look at like numbers,

1018
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 4: but I think that was one of the bigger ones.

1019
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, that and Peggy su.

1020
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was I was gonna say that Peggy was

1021
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: a RAS later.

1022
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:12,919
Speaker 5: So yeah.

1023
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: It's like not an exact science though, and that's what's

1024
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: so sometimes frustrating.

1025
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 5: I'm sure you guys mind it as well.

1026
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: You're like I know that this is this and then

1027
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: it's like oh yeah, and it's like no, people are

1028
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: really weird with their interests and and yeah, you'll have

1029
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 2: a guess that you just think, oh my gosh, this

1030
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 2: is such a huge get and people aren't as invested.

1031
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's someone that you know doesn't have the profile,

1032
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 2: but there's just something really curious about them that people

1033
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 2: lean into. But there's also like so much that goes

1034
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: into I'm sure Gary you've mastered the art of like

1035
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: the title of an episode and the shown like all

1036
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: of this stuff that you kind of build up that

1037
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: knowledge over time.

1038
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 5: Any other questions, This is a question for the both

1039
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 5: of you.

1040
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 9: Obviously you'll reach out to connections and people that you

1041
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 9: know that you want to appear on the show, and

1042
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 9: then I'm sure you also get people on the other

1043
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 9: end who are expressing interest. Have either of you ever

1044
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 9: said no to a guest and if you can share why.

1045
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: That's such a good question, Kayla, do you want to go?

1046
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 2: I imagine you've had quite a few people with Yeah, I.

1047
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 5: Definitely have had people.

1048
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 4: And then I guess as well, like brand deals and

1049
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 4: things that will want to work on the podcast that

1050
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 4: I don't fully align with, And it's just that thing

1051
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 4: just staying true to yourself because obviously you're not going

1052
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 4: to feel as comfortable having someone that you don't really

1053
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 4: get along with, like you always try and make sure

1054
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 4: I have some sort of connection or alignment with like

1055
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 4: a brand or whatever.

1056
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 5: Before I work with them.

1057
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, we probably have time. But one more quick question.

1058
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1059
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 7: This has been incredible. Thank you so much. I'm bella

1060
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,919
Speaker 7: co founder of dian. We have a podcast community inside PLATF.

1061
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 5: I was really curious how you.

1062
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 7: Approach fandom and your community and engaging with them beyond

1063
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 7: the episode. I think you've all done such an incredible

1064
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 7: job of building these loyal listener bases that really resonates

1065
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 7: your stories. How do you yet approach that connection beyond

1066
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 7: the episode?

1067
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: Gary, do you like your community of listeners? How do

1068
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: you engage with them?

1069
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 3: Like?

1070
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: Do you have events?

1071
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: Do you do like we did a live shower, I

1072
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 1: did a live tour that wasn't necessarily caught up with

1073
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 1: the podcast, but we did a live around the country,

1074
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: did a live tour. The best way I can do

1075
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 1: it is that people will reach out, and amazingly how

1076
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: they reach out, I try to respond unless they are

1077
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: a complete another on different platforms that it's not hard

1078
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: to find my email or a month phone numbers out there.

1079
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 3: But the people in.

1080
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: The street, the day to day people in the street,

1081
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 1: they're the ones that if they say hi, we listen

1082
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: to your podcast, I spend five minutes talking to and whatever,

1083
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: and I think that's important. I bumped into someone I

1084
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 1: won't mention his name, but I spoke to him just

1085
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: at the railway station. He's walking his dog and he

1086
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: posted something on social media and Nina, one of the producers, said, oh,

1087
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: you met such and such, and I've gone, who's that? Oh,

1088
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: he's posted a rock star And then I didn't didn't realize,

1089
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: but it ended up at the backstage at then More

1090
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: Theater when they were playing at sold out thing. But yeah,

1091
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: just being nice to people, I think is the way

1092
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: I tried to do it. You're approachable, it's everyone sharing

1093
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: their stories and that's important.

1094
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 4: Totally, and just yeah, being engaging in the comments, like

1095
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 4: responding to people like I think, like the whole reason

1096
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 4: why I started my TikTok was just to connect with people.

1097
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 4: So it really came easy to me to like connect

1098
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 4: with my fans and then yeah, I love seeing them

1099
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 4: out in public and they come up to me.

1100
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 5: It's like so sweet.

1101
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 2: What happens if somebody comes up to you in public

1102
00:56:58,680 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 2: and you're with your family.

1103
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 5: I've always been.

1104
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 4: Curious, like because like ninety percent of my following is female, Like,

1105
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 4: they are very respectful, Like I will see a lot

1106
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 4: of people just like way from a distance or be

1107
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 4: like I just wanted to say hi, but I didn't

1108
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 4: want to come up because so, yeah, I think just

1109
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 4: being respectful and obviously you know, being mindful that there's

1110
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 4: children around. But yeah, everyone's been so amazing.

1111
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think both of you have such such

1112
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: dedicated audiences where they feel that emotional connection with you,

1113
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 2: which is a testament to your authenticity, which is exactly

1114
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: what can reshape narratives, which is what this was about.

1115
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time today. You're

1116
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 2: both so brilliant, and thank you for being here, and

1117
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 2: thank you for those questions. They were great.

1118
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you guy.