1 00:00:03,460 --> 00:00:06,740 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. It's 2 00:00:06,740 --> 00:00:08,709 Sean Aylmer: a great time to be looking for a job in 3 00:00:08,710 --> 00:00:13,450 Sean Aylmer: Australia. Last week's labor force figures for unemployment remain at 4.2% 4 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:16,680 Sean Aylmer: in January. Despite the huge wave of Omicron cases in 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,730 Sean Aylmer: parts of the country, many economists, including the Reserve Bank, 6 00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:22,610 Sean Aylmer: believe the jobless rate could go even lower in coming 7 00:00:22,610 --> 00:00:26,960 Sean Aylmer: months. Meanwhile, last month job search site SEEK recorded the 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,480 Sean Aylmer: most job ads it's ever had in a single month 9 00:00:29,530 --> 00:00:31,990 Sean Aylmer: in its 25 year history. We're in the middle of a 10 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:35,290 Sean Aylmer: shortage of workers and it's starting to show. Robert Walters 11 00:00:35,290 --> 00:00:39,440 Sean Aylmer: is a global recruitment firm operating across 31 countries. James 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,990 Sean Aylmer: Nicholson is their Asia- Pacific CEO. James, welcome to Fear 13 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:43,460 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 14 00:00:43,790 --> 00:00:44,620 James Nicholson: Thank you very much. 15 00:00:44,979 --> 00:00:49,010 Sean Aylmer: It really does feel as if the balance is shifting 16 00:00:49,070 --> 00:00:51,760 Sean Aylmer: in the employment market. We talk so much about it 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,300 Sean Aylmer: on Fear and Greed, but it must be a good 18 00:00:54,380 --> 00:00:57,380 Sean Aylmer: time to be looking for a job as opposed to 19 00:00:57,380 --> 00:00:59,080 Sean Aylmer: being an employer trying to find people. 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,810 James Nicholson: Very much so, yeah, and it has been for probably 21 00:01:02,890 --> 00:01:04,900 James Nicholson: about the last 12 months. I mean, we really noticed 22 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:09,640 James Nicholson: it February '21. It came on very suddenly and pretty 23 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,850 James Nicholson: much globally and across all markets, and it was pretty 24 00:01:12,850 --> 00:01:16,380 James Nicholson: unique in that respect. But the balance definitely tipped at 25 00:01:16,380 --> 00:01:19,780 James Nicholson: that point and hasn't changed since then. So definitely a 26 00:01:19,780 --> 00:01:20,610 James Nicholson: good time to be looking. 27 00:01:20,990 --> 00:01:23,200 Sean Aylmer: Okay. I want to come to what that actually means 28 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,180 Sean Aylmer: in terms of being an employer and an employee in 29 00:01:26,180 --> 00:01:29,080 Sean Aylmer: a moment, but just some of the bigger picture things 30 00:01:29,220 --> 00:01:32,880 Sean Aylmer: that we talk about. I mean, the US has been talking about the Great Resignation, 31 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,490 Sean Aylmer: the Great Reshuffle, the Great Migration. The Great Resignation, that 32 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:40,209 Sean Aylmer: whole idea that's come out of the US with people 33 00:01:40,209 --> 00:01:42,410 Sean Aylmer: resigning their roles in search of better pay and more 34 00:01:42,410 --> 00:01:45,800 Sean Aylmer: meaningful work, is it just a US phenomenon, do you 35 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:47,190 Sean Aylmer: think, or has it spread beyond that? 36 00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:50,760 James Nicholson: I've got a probably different view on this. I think it's a great 37 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,780 James Nicholson: headline. I don't think there's too much more other than 38 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:57,620 James Nicholson: a proceeding word that is any different from any other 39 00:01:57,620 --> 00:02:00,380 James Nicholson: peak or trough in an economic cycle, if I'm honest. 40 00:02:00,380 --> 00:02:05,090 James Nicholson: I think we are in boom times and confidence returned 41 00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:10,290 James Nicholson: with a huge spike after two pretty dismal years globally. 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,100 James Nicholson: And so it's inevitable that there's a pent- up energy there. 43 00:02:15,230 --> 00:02:17,370 James Nicholson: And when the confidence returned, people put their heads up 44 00:02:17,370 --> 00:02:19,680 James Nicholson: above the parapet and they're prepared to look for jobs. 45 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,800 James Nicholson: There's nothing particularly scientific about this that's any different from 46 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,010 James Nicholson: any other peak. So, yeah, I mean, it's obviously accelerated 47 00:02:27,010 --> 00:02:29,980 James Nicholson: this, having had two years of pretty much forced lockdown, 48 00:02:29,980 --> 00:02:34,380 James Nicholson: but I don't see there's any particular difference in cyclical 49 00:02:34,380 --> 00:02:37,570 James Nicholson: terms from what we've seen before, after previous dips. 50 00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:41,900 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Having said that, the US, certainly there's a migration 51 00:02:42,139 --> 00:02:46,350 Sean Aylmer: of workers between jobs more than in Australia, for example. 52 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:49,710 Sean Aylmer: I think Josh Frydenberg called it the Great Reshuffle. Locally, 53 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:51,959 Sean Aylmer: the Reserve Bank Governor Philip Lowe has said, " Well, JobKeeper 54 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,970 Sean Aylmer: kind of kept people attached to jobs." My point is, is it happening in 55 00:02:56,970 --> 00:03:01,100 Sean Aylmer: Australia? Because we are going through a cyclical upturn. Are 56 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:02,579 Sean Aylmer: we likely to see more of it? 57 00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:07,549 James Nicholson: We're definitely seeing the confidence has returned, so people are prepared 58 00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:12,820 James Nicholson: to look for jobs and shuffle around because there's far 59 00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:15,430 James Nicholson: more certainty that you're going to be able to, A, find a job, and B, 60 00:03:15,430 --> 00:03:18,880 James Nicholson: get a pay rise if you move. So that alone 61 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,650 James Nicholson: will cause, I suppose, elasticity in the employment market. But 62 00:03:24,030 --> 00:03:26,639 James Nicholson: I suppose, does it warrant a specific phrase that's different 63 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,419 James Nicholson: from any other peak, is my point? And I don't 64 00:03:28,419 --> 00:03:30,669 James Nicholson: necessarily think it does. I think, yes, we are going 65 00:03:30,669 --> 00:03:33,370 James Nicholson: to follow, inevitably. We have a shortage of workers. So 66 00:03:33,370 --> 00:03:35,530 James Nicholson: there's a shortage of supply caused by a number of 67 00:03:35,530 --> 00:03:39,360 James Nicholson: factors. There's a huge demand, which is caused by this pent- 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,320 James Nicholson: up energy. And the two aren't in equilibrium at the 69 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,100 James Nicholson: moment. So it's inevitable that things are balanced in favor 70 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:47,980 James Nicholson: of the employee. That will have its time at a 71 00:03:47,980 --> 00:03:52,940 James Nicholson: point where borders properly open and visa situations are put 72 00:03:52,940 --> 00:03:55,700 James Nicholson: into equilibrium again, where they've been out of sync for 73 00:03:55,700 --> 00:03:58,640 James Nicholson: such a while now. But again, I think, yes, we'll 74 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,730 James Nicholson: follow the US, as we typically do. Yes, there's confidence 75 00:04:01,730 --> 00:04:04,370 James Nicholson: there for people to shuffle around jobs. Does it warrant 76 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,850 James Nicholson: a specific sociological phrase? I'm not convinced. 77 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,460 Sean Aylmer: Righto. Fair enough. One thing that you have spoken about, 78 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:13,940 Sean Aylmer: though, is a Great Migration. You agree with that one, 79 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:17,560 Sean Aylmer: so the idea that Australian workers might leave the country 80 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,040 Sean Aylmer: to get a better deal, basically, be that taxes or 81 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:20,640 Sean Aylmer: lower cost of living? 82 00:04:21,490 --> 00:04:25,100 James Nicholson: Yeah, definitely. I think that's a real concern for us 83 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:28,099 James Nicholson: is that just because there's headlines at the moment on 84 00:04:28,750 --> 00:04:33,780 James Nicholson: visa restrictions easing in Australia, allowing incoming traffic at last, 85 00:04:33,970 --> 00:04:35,910 James Nicholson: opening up the borders at last, or most of the 86 00:04:35,910 --> 00:04:38,730 James Nicholson: borders, you've got to be guaranteed that you're offering a 87 00:04:38,730 --> 00:04:41,549 James Nicholson: more attractive proposition than the competition on your doorstep or, 88 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:46,340 James Nicholson: indeed, competition anywhere globally. And I suppose our concern is 89 00:04:46,550 --> 00:04:50,219 James Nicholson: compared to maybe even 15, 20 years ago, the ease of 90 00:04:50,220 --> 00:04:54,180 James Nicholson: getting visas for entire families, the longevity you can stay 91 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:57,630 James Nicholson: on visas, the cost of living issues, the tax issues 92 00:04:57,630 --> 00:05:00,280 James Nicholson: that we face compared to Asia on our own doorstep, 93 00:05:01,230 --> 00:05:05,560 James Nicholson: does it make Australia an attractive enough net importer of 94 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:10,190 James Nicholson: the talent that we want versus a natural net exporter 95 00:05:10,570 --> 00:05:13,150 James Nicholson: to countries that possibly are going to open up quicker 96 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,230 James Nicholson: with more attractive propositions? And that's where I think there's 97 00:05:17,230 --> 00:05:21,800 James Nicholson: potentially an issue that structurally, government need to really consider, 98 00:05:22,029 --> 00:05:25,820 James Nicholson: because I'm not convinced that these days, after the last 99 00:05:25,820 --> 00:05:29,140 James Nicholson: two years, that Australia will be as attractive as maybe 100 00:05:29,140 --> 00:05:30,440 James Nicholson: the government considers it is. 101 00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:33,140 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So are you talking at the top end here, or 102 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:36,070 Sean Aylmer: are you talking more broadly across the workforce? 103 00:05:36,490 --> 00:05:39,779 James Nicholson: Primarily, I'm talking about, so the area that we sit 104 00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:42,860 James Nicholson: in is white collar professional services and will go sort 105 00:05:42,910 --> 00:05:45,929 James Nicholson: of middle market towards top end. So I suppose that's 106 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:48,250 James Nicholson: our core area that we see day in, day out. 107 00:05:48,250 --> 00:05:53,260 James Nicholson: And historically, we would have seen vast amounts of incoming 108 00:05:53,260 --> 00:05:59,239 James Nicholson: traffic internationally, qualified professional services, people working in tech, banking, 109 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,920 James Nicholson: finance, legal, whatever, who found it an attractive proposition. And 110 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:11,730 James Nicholson: now I suppose there is more competition with more attractive 111 00:06:11,730 --> 00:06:14,040 James Nicholson: openings potentially elsewhere in the world. So I think, yeah, 112 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:16,580 James Nicholson: the area that I'm speaking about probably is towards top 113 00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:20,830 James Nicholson: end, but I think normally it's something that typically follows 114 00:06:20,830 --> 00:06:22,110 James Nicholson: through down the chain anyway. 115 00:06:22,580 --> 00:06:25,240 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Does government have a role to play in that? 116 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:29,260 James Nicholson: Oh, 100%. If you're looking at tax rates, cost of 117 00:06:29,260 --> 00:06:33,200 James Nicholson: living, incentives, ease of access to visas, how long it 118 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,760 James Nicholson: takes you to transfer to permanent residency. A lot of 119 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,490 James Nicholson: these people will be with families, with marriage, with kids. 120 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:42,930 James Nicholson: You have to make and facilitate an easy path of 121 00:06:42,930 --> 00:06:46,950 James Nicholson: passage. And I'm not as convinced that a move to 122 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:49,150 James Nicholson: the other end of the world for people is always 123 00:06:49,150 --> 00:06:51,700 James Nicholson: as easy as Australia thinks it will be. So, yeah, 124 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:54,110 James Nicholson: I think that the government do have a role to play. Absolutely. 125 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,270 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Stay with me, James. We'll be back in a 126 00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:05,350 Sean Aylmer: minute. My guest this morning is James Nicholson, APAC CEO 127 00:07:05,350 --> 00:07:08,560 Sean Aylmer: at recruitment firm Robert Walters. Now, I mentioned earlier that 128 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,810 Sean Aylmer: it's a great time to be looking for a job. 129 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:14,370 Sean Aylmer: What sectors is demand highest at the moment? 130 00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:17,270 James Nicholson: It's a tough question because you can wrap it up 131 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:19,940 James Nicholson: and say it's been unique in the fact it's been 132 00:07:19,940 --> 00:07:22,650 James Nicholson: pretty much everywhere. It could be from retail and catering 133 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:26,930 James Nicholson: through to top end of town and everything in between. 134 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,230 James Nicholson: You read the headlines about whether it be farm workers, 135 00:07:30,230 --> 00:07:32,810 James Nicholson: whether it be retail, whether it be people packing up 136 00:07:32,810 --> 00:07:35,430 James Nicholson: boxes or whatever else, but it's pretty much everywhere in 137 00:07:35,430 --> 00:07:37,310 James Nicholson: the world that we deal in, so that sort of 138 00:07:37,310 --> 00:07:42,010 James Nicholson: professional white collar area, parts of technology have been obviously 139 00:07:42,010 --> 00:07:45,680 James Nicholson: off the charts, parts of financial services anywhere front to 140 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,220 James Nicholson: back. And then, I mean, the headlines about legal are 141 00:07:48,220 --> 00:07:50,790 James Nicholson: very real. The legal profession is doing everything it can, 142 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:55,520 James Nicholson: throwing money at new graduates to enormous retention bonuses, to 143 00:07:55,520 --> 00:08:00,989 James Nicholson: publicizing huge CPI plus pay rises, where they never would 144 00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:03,560 James Nicholson: normally go to press on it, to try and create 145 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,230 James Nicholson: interest. So I think it's been pretty much everywhere, if 146 00:08:07,350 --> 00:08:11,220 James Nicholson: I'm honest. There's definitely patches where you see the salary 147 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:14,630 James Nicholson: changes that people move for, and there are definitely pockets 148 00:08:14,630 --> 00:08:18,860 James Nicholson: where the numbers two years ago, people were moving for, pre- 149 00:08:18,860 --> 00:08:22,850 James Nicholson: COVID, they were pretty much moving for flat salaries. And 150 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,670 James Nicholson: now we're seeing very regularly 20, 25% shifts for in demand areas. 151 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:31,600 Sean Aylmer: Wow. We've seen lots of talk in... I mean, I think the 152 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,050 Sean Aylmer: Senate estimates committee was talking about Australia Post paying retention 153 00:08:35,610 --> 00:08:39,090 Sean Aylmer: bonuses. There's sign on bonuses for graduates, all that sort 154 00:08:39,090 --> 00:08:42,839 Sean Aylmer: of thing. What does that mean for wage rates generally? 155 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,660 James Nicholson: I think the fear is, is how long- term this 156 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:49,820 James Nicholson: can realistically go on for. Wage rates, so we only 157 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:52,829 James Nicholson: see, like I say, a pocket of the overall picture, 158 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:57,570 James Nicholson: but the pocket that we see is definitely not suggesting 159 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:03,850 James Nicholson: a CPI style wage inflation at all. Everything we're seeing 160 00:09:03,850 --> 00:09:06,820 James Nicholson: is above that. So it's going to have a drawdown 161 00:09:06,820 --> 00:09:11,010 James Nicholson: effect. And we've seen it even yesterday with the rail 162 00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:15,730 James Nicholson: workers and transport workers. There's issues that are going to unfold as 163 00:09:15,730 --> 00:09:19,900 James Nicholson: a result of this because the productivity rises have to 164 00:09:19,900 --> 00:09:22,830 James Nicholson: go alongside the increases in the costs which are coming 165 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:27,040 James Nicholson: through, and I don't think they're sustainable. So hence my earlier 166 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,689 James Nicholson: point about opening up borders, visa restrictions easing and increasing 167 00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:35,640 James Nicholson: the population flow that fills these jobs, because without that, 168 00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:39,890 James Nicholson: yeah, the pressure's on. We're already an expensive country to 169 00:09:39,890 --> 00:09:43,270 James Nicholson: do business in. And if you add in 20% on 170 00:09:43,270 --> 00:09:47,780 James Nicholson: your overall cost line on employment, eventually international firms are 171 00:09:47,780 --> 00:09:51,120 James Nicholson: going to start putting brakes on hiring over here because 172 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,929 James Nicholson: they're going to start looking at the relative cost of 173 00:09:52,929 --> 00:09:55,330 James Nicholson: hiring someone here versus maybe in the US where they 174 00:09:55,330 --> 00:09:59,280 James Nicholson: have opened up borders, and you'll start seeing employment processes 175 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,900 James Nicholson: and hiring processes slow down as a result. That's what 176 00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:03,970 James Nicholson: I would expect to see is if the costs keep 177 00:10:03,970 --> 00:10:07,220 James Nicholson: on rising, eventually the big multinationals will look at the 178 00:10:07,220 --> 00:10:09,550 James Nicholson: cost of hiring in Australia relative to other countries and 179 00:10:09,550 --> 00:10:11,099 James Nicholson: then start slowing that process down. 180 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,970 Sean Aylmer: Okay. In your area, do you have to jump jobs 181 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:17,090 Sean Aylmer: to get a pay rise? So in that white collar 182 00:10:17,090 --> 00:10:20,489 Sean Aylmer: professional. A lot of people out there would like a 183 00:10:20,490 --> 00:10:23,170 Sean Aylmer: pay rise. They're reading all this. It's very easy to 184 00:10:23,170 --> 00:10:24,070 Sean Aylmer: become disaffected. 185 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:28,130 James Nicholson: Yeah. And it's another massive tension that firms are facing 186 00:10:28,130 --> 00:10:30,350 James Nicholson: at the moment. I mean, we're hearing all the confusion and, 187 00:10:30,350 --> 00:10:34,109 James Nicholson: I suppose, the lack of clarity around what we give 188 00:10:34,110 --> 00:10:37,740 James Nicholson: employees and what bosses really want and work from home 189 00:10:37,740 --> 00:10:39,910 James Nicholson: and flex. And then you add this issue in of, 190 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:45,350 James Nicholson: heavily publicized by people like ourselves, the salary changes that 191 00:10:45,350 --> 00:10:47,660 James Nicholson: are going on when people are moving jobs. And the 192 00:10:47,660 --> 00:10:50,189 James Nicholson: sort of numbers I've listed for people moving externally are 193 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:54,150 James Nicholson: very real, and yet we know it firsthand that those 194 00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:55,830 James Nicholson: aren't the pay rises that people are getting on an 195 00:10:55,830 --> 00:10:59,650 James Nicholson: annual cycle for remaining within their jobs. So I mean, 196 00:10:59,650 --> 00:11:03,420 James Nicholson: there always is an inherent tension where you have parities 197 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:06,880 James Nicholson: for moving internally or parities when you change internally, but 198 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,690 James Nicholson: which you don't have when you move externally. And I 199 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:13,790 James Nicholson: think, again, it's an added bit of energy that's going 200 00:11:13,790 --> 00:11:17,020 James Nicholson: into this movement of people externally and the confidence to 201 00:11:17,020 --> 00:11:19,490 James Nicholson: move externally, because I think most people are reading it 202 00:11:19,490 --> 00:11:20,890 James Nicholson: and thinking, " Well, that's the only way I'm going to 203 00:11:20,890 --> 00:11:24,690 James Nicholson: get that salary change." Now, the only caution I'd urge 204 00:11:24,690 --> 00:11:26,729 James Nicholson: in that, despite what we do day in, day out, 205 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:29,670 James Nicholson: and our job is relying on that confidence, but the 206 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:32,770 James Nicholson: reality is you have to urge a degree of caution 207 00:11:32,770 --> 00:11:35,609 James Nicholson: as well because just because someone's prepared to pay you 208 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,500 James Nicholson: a significant lump up, doesn't mean the job is worth 209 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,270 James Nicholson: that, or that it's going to be a comfortable job, or 210 00:11:41,270 --> 00:11:45,219 James Nicholson: that it's secure. There's a concern at the moment of 211 00:11:45,309 --> 00:11:49,069 James Nicholson: all of the headlines are suggesting positivity movements, pay rises 212 00:11:49,070 --> 00:11:51,459 James Nicholson: and so on. An awful lot of the hiring that's 213 00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:54,020 James Nicholson: gone on over the last year has been done only 214 00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:56,990 James Nicholson: partly in person. There's not been a lot of facial 215 00:11:56,990 --> 00:12:01,230 James Nicholson: interaction and interpersonal interaction in interview processes or, indeed, onboarding. 216 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:04,429 James Nicholson: And as a result of that, I think you run 217 00:12:04,429 --> 00:12:07,150 James Nicholson: the risk that people are often taking jobs with less 218 00:12:07,150 --> 00:12:09,070 James Nicholson: of a full picture as to what they're going into. 219 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:12,510 Sean Aylmer: Wow. That's really interesting. I suppose the other point too 220 00:12:12,510 --> 00:12:14,469 Sean Aylmer: is, is it always about money? 221 00:12:14,809 --> 00:12:18,929 James Nicholson: No, certainly not. I mean, I think that, again, there's a conflict in 222 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:23,360 James Nicholson: this discussion sometimes where you ask people what their key 223 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,319 James Nicholson: factors are in driving them towards a job or away 224 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,179 James Nicholson: from a job. And so often you'll hear things like culture, work- 225 00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:34,809 James Nicholson: life balance, lifestyle routine, work from home and all of 226 00:12:34,809 --> 00:12:38,050 James Nicholson: that sort of stuff. Normally when that's said, I think 227 00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:43,340 James Nicholson: it's because people fear saying financial compensation because it suggests 228 00:12:43,340 --> 00:12:45,780 James Nicholson: there's an element of self- interest and greed, but obviously, 229 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:49,380 James Nicholson: people do have that. And normally when people say all of 230 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:52,550 James Nicholson: the other things, they're saying it on top of the 231 00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:55,330 James Nicholson: financial side as well. I think most people who want 232 00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:57,819 James Nicholson: to have flex, who want to work from home, who want to work 233 00:12:57,820 --> 00:13:00,810 James Nicholson: reduced hours, who don't want to travel, who want to 234 00:13:01,290 --> 00:13:03,179 James Nicholson: dictate the terms a bit more than maybe they did 235 00:13:03,179 --> 00:13:05,940 James Nicholson: two years ago still want exactly the same pay. They're 236 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:10,030 James Nicholson: not offering up a reduction. And that's where I do 237 00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:12,720 James Nicholson: feel for the people running the firms who have to 238 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,890 James Nicholson: present the returns to shareholders and so on because you 239 00:13:16,890 --> 00:13:19,770 James Nicholson: still have that financial pressure to perform and produce, but 240 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:22,800 James Nicholson: you've got a workforce that the favor's tilted in their 241 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,600 James Nicholson: balance at the moment to some degree because of the 242 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,760 James Nicholson: shortage of workers. So everyone's trying to facilitate giving the 243 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,709 James Nicholson: worker everything they want, but at the same time, it 244 00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:33,750 James Nicholson: doesn't always correlate with what's in the best interests of 245 00:13:33,750 --> 00:13:36,809 James Nicholson: producing a result. So I think there's an element where 246 00:13:36,990 --> 00:13:39,230 James Nicholson: I think other factors are very much at play these 247 00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:41,490 James Nicholson: days and they're being heavily publicized and that's feeding into 248 00:13:41,490 --> 00:13:46,290 James Nicholson: the psyche, but compensation will always remain key for most 249 00:13:46,290 --> 00:13:46,969 James Nicholson: people, I think. 250 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:49,150 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 251 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:49,900 James Nicholson: Pleasure. 252 00:13:50,260 --> 00:13:54,130 Sean Aylmer: That was James Nicholson, APAC CEO at recruitment firm Robert 253 00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:57,960 Sean Aylmer: Walters. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me every morning for 254 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,280 Sean Aylmer: the full Fear and Greed podcast with all the business 255 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,420 Sean Aylmer: news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.