Speaker 1: Bobby Kapoucho, Welcome to the You Project.
Speaker 2: My friend Greig Anthony Hopper. Good to be here.
Speaker 1: Hey, buddy, I want to do something slightly different today.
Speaker 1: So rather than you and I wax lyrical about the
Speaker 1: human experience and the mind and the brain and potential
Speaker 1: and all of those things, broadly speaking, I want to
Speaker 1: ask some things.
Speaker 2: We're not going to.
Speaker 1: Delve too deep into anything you don't want to delve into,
Speaker 1: but I want to understand your mind a little bit.
Speaker 1: And I want because you've got one of the most
Speaker 1: fascinating minds that I've intersected with. I love how you think.
Speaker 1: I love how you tell stories. I love how you teach.
Speaker 1: I love how you coach. I also love, and I
Speaker 1: mean this with absolute respect and authenticity, I love the
Speaker 1: journey that you had. While it wasn't a fun journey
Speaker 1: for you, but to know a fair bit about your
Speaker 1: childhood and your adolescents and teen years and you're to
Speaker 1: come out of what wasn't a let's say, an optimal
Speaker 1: or ideal start to life and to do some pretty
Speaker 1: amazing things all over the world. So I want to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that and a bit about you.
Speaker 2: Is that okay with you, yes, but before we get
Speaker 2: into this, I mean, I appreciate this, but I'm still
Speaker 2: trying to figure out and understand my mind. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know how much luck you or anybody else
Speaker 2: that's going to have with it.
Speaker 1: Well let's start there, like what I want to ask
Speaker 1: you some things, and what I don't want to do
Speaker 1: is I want to I want to try and spend two, three,
Speaker 1: four minutes on each thing and then move on. But
Speaker 1: fuck who knows. But but I feel like we can
Speaker 1: cover some really good territory. Okay, So when you think
Speaker 1: about the mind, right, even the mind is a slippery construct.
Speaker 1: So let's think about your mind. When you say to
Speaker 1: your you're still trying to understand your mind or yourself,
Speaker 1: do you mean that seriously? And if you do, how
Speaker 1: does that understanding arise? And what's the journey and what
Speaker 1: are the questions? What's the process?
Speaker 2: I think we have to start with when you say
Speaker 2: the mind, what exactly is the mind? And I don't
Speaker 2: even think I know that. I know the most of
Speaker 2: the scientific concerensus not all of it is. The mind
Speaker 2: arises from the biochemical and synaptic activity in the brain.
Speaker 3: That is the mind. But is there any love for us?
Speaker 2: Because I mean, go ahead, there's yeah.
Speaker 1: When some people think that you know that conscious awareness,
Speaker 1: all that stuff that happens in the prefrontal cortex. The thinking,
Speaker 1: the problem solving, the interpreting the world around us is
Speaker 1: a brain process, not a mind process. There is no mind.
Speaker 1: The mind's just a story we invented to help us
Speaker 1: understand thinking. But so for whatever it is, let's just
Speaker 1: say we've got one. How have you come to understand
Speaker 1: your and develop your mind when you didn't have a
Speaker 1: running start at this?
Speaker 2: I think as right now, I revel in the fact
Speaker 2: that I know nothing. When I started realizing how little
Speaker 2: I know about everything, it was disturbing because I always
Speaker 2: want to know something. I think when it comes to
Speaker 2: staying in my lane and kind of like a lane adjacent,
Speaker 2: kind of like the middle lanes of a five lane freeway,
Speaker 2: I'm rather curious, and that curiosity and frustration, whilst it
Speaker 2: drives me understanding how inept I am and so many
Speaker 2: suff checks was frustrating. I love it now because it
Speaker 2: just leaves me open to possibility. I think what started
Speaker 2: with me is understanding that with all those possibilities, I
Speaker 2: could prove most of them, and not control but influence
Speaker 2: which direction I was going and how I evolved into
Speaker 2: a possibility that at the moment excited me. And that
Speaker 2: was about deciding things, or having the illusion of deciding
Speaker 2: that I knew I was certain of, even in the
Speaker 2: midst of complete uncertainty around everything else, eventually, around what
Speaker 2: are my values? What do things mean to me? Things
Speaker 2: that happened in the past and the present. They might
Speaker 2: not have any meaning at all, but we have that
Speaker 2: imagination and we have the autonomy to decide. Okay, well,
Speaker 2: if it did mean something, what would be constructive? If
Speaker 2: that makes any sense? What so happened? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But I mean, you can't honestly say you don't know anything,
Speaker 1: because you know a lot.
Speaker 2: I mean, I know facts and figures, and I know
Speaker 2: about like how I feel about certain things, how I
Speaker 2: interpret things. But what do I really know? I mean,
Speaker 2: but think about the conversation we were having before we
Speaker 2: hit play on this. I think we should start doing
Speaker 2: that earlier, because those conversations are actually fascinating.
Speaker 1: Tell people what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, when you get to the age of Craig and I,
Speaker 2: you start to deal more consistently with.
Speaker 3: Matters of life and death.
Speaker 2: And we both were connected to people who are not
Speaker 2: here anymore recently or who.
Speaker 3: Might not be here much longer.
Speaker 2: And we were talking about where does this person go?
Speaker 3: So there's this essence, there's this person, you.
Speaker 2: Know, and there they're them to themselves and then they're gone.
Speaker 3: What happens to that person?
Speaker 2: If we're honest, nobody absolutely knows. I mean, people have beliefs,
Speaker 2: but we don't absolutely know the most basic fundamental aspects
Speaker 2: of the world we live in life and death, right,
Speaker 2: the unavoidable, the imminent.
Speaker 3: We know nothing even about that. So I don't really
Speaker 3: know all that much.
Speaker 2: But that's great because I find more. I find more
Speaker 2: interest and satisfaction living in the question sometimes than I
Speaker 2: do having the answer.
Speaker 1: And we were talking about how I told you that
Speaker 1: one of my one of my best friends got some
Speaker 1: not very good news yesterday, and which is life impacting news,
Speaker 1: and and how you know I wasn't expecting that obviously.
Speaker 1: I was just going about my day, probably a bit
Speaker 1: caught up in my own self importance and bullshit and
Speaker 1: my to do list and how busy I am, And
Speaker 1: you know, oh, woe is made. I don't think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of self pity. But you know, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I get a phone call and I talked
Speaker 1: to this guy, and everything else instantly is unimportant in
Speaker 1: that moment anyway, right, And I'm not saying that nothing
Speaker 1: else matters, of course it does.
Speaker 2: But you know, you and I were saying.
Speaker 1: How how incredibly quickly perspective changes and focus and priority changes,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, yeah, this is right now. And
Speaker 1: in that moment, it's like I wouldn't have cared if
Speaker 1: I had chatted with him, been on the phone with
Speaker 1: him for the next five hours, Like everything else didn't matter.
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't care what else I've going on now,
Speaker 1: Nothing is this important as this moment. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that it's interesting that sometimes we have to have
Speaker 1: not always, but sometimes things happen that are, you know,
Speaker 1: in the ballpark of tragic, to have a perspective that
Speaker 1: maybe well for me anyway, and maybe I should have
Speaker 1: more often.
Speaker 2: I think we're more I mean the film Fight Club
Speaker 2: the book actually, but I think more people have seen
Speaker 2: the film at this point than read the book. That
Speaker 2: was the unnamed character in part one. There's actually a
Speaker 2: graphic novel that's a Fight Club Part two. So Ed
Speaker 2: Norton was playing the role of a guy who was
Speaker 2: revealed to be named Sebastian, and that was the whole
Speaker 2: point when he was having an existential crisis and like,
Speaker 2: what is the meaning of all of this? He started
Speaker 2: going to cancer support groups because he said, it's only
Speaker 2: when people get to that point where it's the end
Speaker 2: of their life that they talk about something vulnerable and
Speaker 2: visceral and real. And I think, you know, like you said,
Speaker 2: of course things are important, Like even the trivial aspects
Speaker 2: of our day. Are they as important as matters of
Speaker 2: life and death. No, But if they weren't important at all,
Speaker 2: we wouldn't do anything, because like, what's the point. So
Speaker 2: they are important or they connect to things are important.
Speaker 2: But every once in a while, we're knocked out of
Speaker 2: our routine and we're brought face to face with something
Speaker 2: that is of deep importance. And I think that's when
Speaker 2: we get really vulnerable, when we open up and we
Speaker 2: drop the mask and all the other bullshit and facades
Speaker 2: that we navigate through our world with. It really doesn't
Speaker 2: matter because there's no time. We don't have time for
Speaker 2: that shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess also, like there's the thing, and
Speaker 1: then there's your story about the thing and your one
Speaker 1: to ten importance writing. You know, there was a time
Speaker 1: where for me, and this is maybe a silly example,
Speaker 1: but it's practical example. For me making a certain amount
Speaker 1: of money every week, it was about an eight out
Speaker 1: of ten important because that's where I was in my life,
Speaker 1: and I had employees, and I had all these moves
Speaker 1: parts in order for me to survive financially and then
Speaker 1: to build a career and to you know, not liv
Speaker 1: an impoverished life. I needed to hit these gada da
Speaker 1: da da all that. And now it's not that I'm
Speaker 1: some wealthy, retiring mogul, but just the way that I
Speaker 1: think about money and the importance it has for me.
Speaker 1: It's not an eight anymore, Like I still need it.
Speaker 1: I've got to pay the bills, But the exact same
Speaker 1: thing that we're talking about is for me a two
Speaker 1: or three.
Speaker 2: It's just a thing.
Speaker 1: It's a resource that helps me do stuff. And it's
Speaker 1: not that money is different or that money is required
Speaker 1: more or less in our culture, probably more, but it's that,
Speaker 1: like whatever that thing is, your relationship with it changes,
Speaker 1: you know, Like for some people it's really important that
Speaker 1: they're in a relationship in the next three weeks. That's
Speaker 1: like a not like their priority is that they can't
Speaker 1: be alone, they can't be single, They've got to be
Speaker 1: And for other people it's like it's not even a two.
Speaker 1: So it's not so much necessarily that there's an arbitrary
Speaker 1: level of importance about things, but rather our perspective of that. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, and I told you about my friend yesterday,
Speaker 1: and I've also shared this, I think two or three
Speaker 1: times on the show. But someone really close to me
Speaker 1: and died passed away between Christmas and Year and New Year,
Speaker 1: and I sat with her on Christmas Day and just it.
Speaker 1: You know, it was sad and beautiful and all of that.
Speaker 1: But I had a profound experience on me because I
Speaker 1: had this awareness in the moment that most of the
Speaker 1: people in my life that have passed away, I never
Speaker 1: had a time with them where I sat with them
Speaker 1: saying goodbye because I knew this would be the last time.
Speaker 1: You know, she was at death's door, so to speak,
Speaker 1: and she was in hospital in palliative care, and she
Speaker 1: knew and I you and it's just like it's kind
Speaker 1: of painful and beautiful and it gives you this I
Speaker 1: don't know for me, this awareness and this I don't know,
Speaker 1: this perspective that I guess I can't carry that all
Speaker 1: the time because I probably wouldn't get anything done. But
Speaker 1: definitely I need more of it, you know me.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I think what's beautiful about moments like that? As
Speaker 2: painful as there are, I can't imagine many things more
Speaker 2: painful than losing someone you deeply care about, not only
Speaker 2: that you deeply care about, but who brings value and
Speaker 2: emotion into your life.
Speaker 3: I think what is beautiful.
Speaker 2: About that is just that raw connection where you talk
Speaker 2: about stories, like what's our story that we tell ourselves
Speaker 2: about life?
Speaker 3: And what's the meaning of all this?
Speaker 2: Well, he's a different meaning for everyone. Maybe maybe there's
Speaker 2: this overarching meaning that we'll never discover in this plane
Speaker 2: of existence, or maybe there isn't any and it's up
Speaker 2: to us to decide what it means. But I think,
Speaker 2: in one way.
Speaker 3: Shape or formance, to connect to one another.
Speaker 2: So my wife had asked me to watch this documentary
Speaker 2: and it was about pets and there was this one
Speaker 2: guy that they followed, like, you know, he's an old guy,
Speaker 2: but They followed him from when he was really young
Speaker 2: and he was living in the inner city in South Washington,
Speaker 2: d C. And he just was like, I got to
Speaker 2: get out of this place, like, look at this place,
Speaker 2: look around me.
Speaker 3: I was like, I grew up in Cornell and Brooklyn, and.
Speaker 2: I resonated what that feels like. And he started getting
Speaker 2: into taking care of animals and like different types of
Speaker 2: injured birds like owls and falcons, and would he would
Speaker 2: nurse them back to health and release them back into
Speaker 2: the wild, and people would give him messages like if
Speaker 2: they're suffering, or they lost the loved one, or they
Speaker 2: were sick, and it was almost this prayer and he
Speaker 2: would attach them to these animals and release them with
Speaker 2: this prayer and almost like it was a surrender.
Speaker 3: And then it was horses, and it was like.
Speaker 2: And I'm watching this And there was something he said
Speaker 2: where whenever I help an animal, I feel like I've
Speaker 2: done my small part.
Speaker 3: It's a very very small part. I thought, Wow, small
Speaker 3: is really significant, because this guy has found a way
Speaker 3: to connect to creatures and to connect to people around
Speaker 3: him through the work he does and make a small
Speaker 3: yet very significant difference through kindness. I mean whatever we're
Speaker 3: here for, it's got to be in my mind to
Speaker 3: connect with one another, to somehow touch something in one another.
Speaker 3: You cannot do alone, which is why so much and
Speaker 3: talking about self help advice, so much of the being
Speaker 3: independent and not needing anybody. And Tiff and I had
Speaker 3: a podcast episode where somebody who's quite famous was talking
Speaker 3: about like, just avoid friends, avoid deep connections.
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, Like, forget about all of the countless
Speaker 2: empirical evidence on the importance and the nature of relationships
Speaker 2: to well being, because none of it contradicts that. None
Speaker 2: of it says, well, well, you know you better off
Speaker 2: being disconnected like some people. No, doesn't show up. That's
Speaker 2: your life philosophy. Just think about, like what that feels
Speaker 2: like the best moments in your life, because we all
Speaker 2: have these moments that show up as sacred for us.
Speaker 2: Who else was part of that? They never occur in isolation.
Speaker 2: So I don't know. Maybe this fine a need for
Speaker 2: a life is what makes it absolutely sop urgently beautiful.
Speaker 2: I'd say, what do we do? How do we fill that?
Speaker 1: So tell me about this for you, this connect, this deep.
Speaker 1: So I could get stuff wrong here, so correct what
Speaker 1: I get wrong?
Speaker 2: If I get anything wrong.
Speaker 1: But like, so we're talking about this deep connection with
Speaker 1: humans which we all need. We might say we don't need,
Speaker 1: but on some level we all need at least a
Speaker 1: person at some stage maybe hopefully we'll have many beautiful
Speaker 1: people connected and intertwined with us through our life. Do
Speaker 1: you have Have you found it difficult over the years
Speaker 1: to trust people deeply to open that door? Because you
Speaker 1: are like me a bit in that you can do
Speaker 1: the persona thing. You can, you can talk, you can,
Speaker 1: you can build rapport and connection. You've got all the words,
Speaker 1: you've got the charisma, you've got all the shit that
Speaker 1: you need to be the Bobby Show. But underneath the
Speaker 1: Bobby Show and I know behind the Bobby curtain and
Speaker 1: you know behind the Great curtain, Like, has it been
Speaker 1: a struggle for you to get close close, like real
Speaker 1: close with people and to trust people? And maybe tell
Speaker 1: us about that either way?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the short answer is yes, there is
Speaker 2: nothing that I talk about, or write about or teach
Speaker 2: that I have not personally at some point struggled with
Speaker 2: and been a hypocrite in relation to I mean, we
Speaker 2: both know someone very well who said to me quite
Speaker 2: emphatically how dare you even call yourself a coach? And
Speaker 2: I think you know when I think we teach what
Speaker 2: we need the most. And I have always strived to
Speaker 2: be absolutely consistent with what I.
Speaker 3: Say and what I do and what I believe.
Speaker 2: And there are times in my life where I have
Speaker 2: failed epically in that. And you know, the way I
Speaker 2: grew up, I would imagine that I would have had
Speaker 2: a very hard time trusting people, but it was the opposite.
Speaker 3: In the beginning in my twenties, I trusted.
Speaker 2: Everybody openly, like I'll get into business with you, It's
Speaker 2: like I'll meet you on emotional level, Like there was
Speaker 2: just like whatever someone said, I took it at phase value,
Speaker 2: like I will extend trust until you prove me wrong,
Speaker 2: rather than I don't trust anybody until you prove to
Speaker 2: me that that I can trust you, or respect has
Speaker 2: to be earned. I was like no, no, like who,
Speaker 2: like who the fuck am I that you have to
Speaker 2: earn my respect. I'm going to give you respect freely.
Speaker 3: Until you prove me wrong.
Speaker 4: And a lot of people proved me wrong, Like I
Speaker 4: had people that refused to work with me, or they
Speaker 4: were concerned to get into any business dealing with me
Speaker 4: because they're like, you are very naive and you trust.
Speaker 3: People to the point where it can hurt you.
Speaker 2: And if I'm close to you and like your success
Speaker 2: is tied into my success, well that could hurt me.
Speaker 2: Another person who we know very very well, very close
Speaker 2: personal in front of mine. I was like, Capuccio, you're
Speaker 2: not allowed to talk to anybody, sign anything, agree to
Speaker 2: anything unless one of us are around you. And that
Speaker 2: was the because if you told me this is my intention,
Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: let's do that. And I would get burned a lot,
Speaker 2: and I would I would reconcile. You know that has
Speaker 2: more to do with that person than it does with me. Hmmm.
Speaker 2: And the chances you know what I mean, I'm trying
Speaker 2: to create something. If you do something and that violates
Speaker 2: me or that betrays me, that's on you. There's nothing
Speaker 2: to do with me. I'm going to go out and
Speaker 2: do this again. But it got to a point where
Speaker 2: that was no longer the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like you and I are similar in
Speaker 1: that in that when I was when I was young,
Speaker 1: I was you know, flawed, but well meaning and very trusting,
Speaker 1: and I don't know I think I had a pretty
Speaker 1: simple childhood. Like I grew up in rural Victoria, grew
Speaker 1: up in the country.
Speaker 2: It wasn't a.
Speaker 1: Particularly complicated existence, and most people said what they meant
Speaker 1: and meant what they said and did what they said
Speaker 1: they were going to do. And it wasn't like it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it was more complicated and I
Speaker 1: was just simple, but it seems simple. And then I
Speaker 1: started my businesses, I pretty much like you. I just
Speaker 1: trusted everybody and took them at face value, and then
Speaker 1: you realize, oh, people are stealing from me, people are
Speaker 1: taking things, people are lying to be, people are saying
Speaker 1: one thing and doing and then you're like, oh oh.
Speaker 1: And then so I went from and this is probably
Speaker 1: not a good thing to admit, but this is just true.
Speaker 1: So I went from kind of trusting everybody to then
Speaker 1: not well, not that I didn't trust anybody, but I
Speaker 1: didn't automatically trust people anymore. Like it. I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is an indictment on me, but I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I And so even in the last few years, I've
Speaker 1: said to people that I've come into contact with that
Speaker 1: I'm maybe going to do some kind of alliance or
Speaker 1: we've got some kind of strategic arrangement. In a nice way,
Speaker 1: I let them know that I don't trust them, but
Speaker 1: also I say I don't distrust you. I just don't
Speaker 1: know yet, just because what you're telling me. I've had
Speaker 1: one hundred people tell me a version of the same
Speaker 1: thing that you're telling me and then prove to be
Speaker 1: either dishonest or unreliable or not trustworthy. And so it's
Speaker 1: not about you. It's about my history. But I bring
Speaker 1: my baggage with me, and so for me, and I
Speaker 1: don't know if this is a good, bad, good or
Speaker 1: bad thing. You can tell me what you think, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I will definitely give people the opportunity, but in
Speaker 1: terms of unreservedly trusting them, that does not happen quickly.
Speaker 2: I think somewhere in the middle is probably the wisest
Speaker 2: place to be. I am a nature a neurotic individual,
Speaker 2: and sometimes neurotic individuals can see details in their environment.
Speaker 2: Because I had to, I had, like again trying but
Speaker 2: explain to people why you had to?
Speaker 1: And sorry, two questions, One, why did you have to?
Speaker 1: And to explain to people a little bit as much
Speaker 1: as you want your neuroses.
Speaker 2: Well, i operate on a high level of anxiety, and
Speaker 2: I'm always thinking, Okay, what can go wrong in this situation,
Speaker 2: what's the and I'm going to go somewhere with this
Speaker 2: around trust? And there's a risk benefit ratio in every situation.
Speaker 2: You learn this when you're a trainer, like you're selecting
Speaker 2: an exercise.
Speaker 3: There are so many.
Speaker 2: Variables that you need to assess because there's a risk
Speaker 2: and there's a benefit, and you don't want to be
Speaker 2: on the wrong side of that ratio, especially when a
Speaker 2: client's and trusting themselves to you. So I'm always looking
Speaker 2: for that because if I misread a situation growing up,
Speaker 2: I could get hurt very very badly. I don't mean
Speaker 2: them yes, emotionally, but physically, or I could die. So
Speaker 2: my life was at stake. So when I'm highly emotionally invested,
Speaker 2: I have so many blind spots. But if I sit
Speaker 2: down and I look at a situation like Richard Boyd,
Speaker 2: I've been multiple businesses with him, which was like you
Speaker 2: could tell what's gonna happen like months out. It's almost
Speaker 2: like you could tell exactly what people are going to do,
Speaker 2: how things are going to work out. And it's not
Speaker 2: because like, I'm a genius at pattern recognitions because my
Speaker 2: survival depended on me being able to do that with
Speaker 2: the people around me that were a constant threat to me.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about trust and let's talk about risk
Speaker 2: benefit because somebody gave me really good advice years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you know, you know when something makes so much
Speaker 2: sense to you logically and in your heart, you know
Speaker 2: it's true, but you're in so much pain that you're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't think so. And that's kind of the attitude
Speaker 2: I took, and man if I paid for it. So
Speaker 2: one of my clients was a relatively famous.
Speaker 3: Comedian in the United States.
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to mention their name because of privacy,
Speaker 2: but I will say they were on The Daily Show
Speaker 2: with John Stewart at some point, so I won't say
Speaker 2: any more than that. But this is a really intelligent individual,
Speaker 2: obviously talented guy, and just a beautiful human. I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed our relationship and we were out having some coffee
Speaker 2: and somebody sole from me and it wasn't just money,
Speaker 2: it was intellectual property. It was my heart, my soul,
Speaker 2: part of my identity, and it was one of those
Speaker 2: things where I led with complete trust in a deal,
Speaker 2: and that trust turned out to be really stupid on
Speaker 2: my part. But who knew right hindsight, and we're sitting there,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about what do I do about this? And
Speaker 2: this is an individual who you know, he's in this arena,
Speaker 2: and you know he's got great intellectual property and he's
Speaker 2: dealt with this stuff. And he said a few things
Speaker 2: to me that were brilliant. He said, first of all,
Speaker 2: if you're any good at all, people are going to
Speaker 2: steal from you. If nobody's imitating you, nobody's stealing from you.
Speaker 2: What you're putting out there is not worthwhile, it's not
Speaker 2: very valuable. So do you want to put out valuable
Speaker 2: stuff or do you want to protect yourself? And he said,
Speaker 2: there's a few things that you can do. You could sue,
Speaker 2: You could go after this person. You have enough proof,
Speaker 2: there's the evidence there, he said, But understand it's going
Speaker 2: to be very costly, not just financially but in terms
Speaker 2: of time and energy. And no matter what you gain
Speaker 2: if you come out on the right side of that lawsuit,
Speaker 2: you got to think about what you're absolutely going to lose.
Speaker 2: He said, you are going to lose the creative energy
Speaker 2: and source where all of your ideas and creativity come
Speaker 2: from that.
Speaker 3: Make you you.
Speaker 2: You're going to lose your originality in this process. And
Speaker 2: he said, you know, when people imitate you, there's just
Speaker 2: something that instinctively, any audience knows, and that is an original.
Speaker 2: They can listen to the same material with the same inflections,
Speaker 2: the same timing, and know this material just doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2: It's not innate to the person delivering it. They're not
Speaker 2: the source, they're not the author of what they're trying
Speaker 2: to deliver, and they can listen to someone else and go,
Speaker 2: that's it. There's there's this resonance. It's truthful, it's authentic.
Speaker 2: It's like, you got you gotta make a decision about
Speaker 2: what you're willing to give up. And the cost of
Speaker 2: chasing everyone is much greater than just letting it go
Speaker 2: and keep creating, staying one step ahead. I heard that
Speaker 2: was like wow, thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I didn't listen. It's like and he was right, Wow,
Speaker 3: the cost of that.
Speaker 2: Is so steep. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I I mean, as you know, I write on the
Speaker 1: white board, I take a photograph for the white board,
Speaker 1: and then I put it up on Instagram. And I've
Speaker 1: done that. I think it's about six thousand times, and
Speaker 1: not all of them are terrible, a few of them
Speaker 1: are okay, and some of them that are okay get
Speaker 1: ripped off a lot, I mean a lot like that.
Speaker 1: I wrote twelve fucking Rules for success, probably seven or
Speaker 1: eight years ago now, and that's been plagiarized, turned into
Speaker 1: posters and cups and teetowels and pieces of art and
Speaker 1: all products for sale online like word for word my
Speaker 1: work without my name on it, of course. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I went through that where I actually had a couple
Speaker 1: of lawyers go to me who follow me, like do
Speaker 1: you want me to do? And I'm like, I thought
Speaker 1: about all of that, and for the potential I do
Speaker 1: the cost benefit analysis and not just financially but emotionally, mentally, creatively,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I want to invest my energy in that.
Speaker 1: That's not and I just go, okay, it's And if
Speaker 1: I'm if I'm really not all about money and I'm
Speaker 1: really just about or I try to be as much
Speaker 1: as possible about putting good stuff into the world, then
Speaker 1: fuck it, you know. And I don't want people ripping
Speaker 1: off my shit, but I know they're going to anyway,
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to your anxiety, and you
Speaker 1: said something like I'm anxiety driven or whatever.
Speaker 2: What is what is the.
Speaker 1: What is the upside of anxiety for you? Or what
Speaker 1: is potentially the upside if there is one? Like how
Speaker 1: does your anxiety serve you in a positive way?
Speaker 2: If it does, I think there's an upside of every emotion.
Speaker 2: I don't believe in positive and negative emotions. I believe
Speaker 2: there are negative interpretations, behaviors and ingreened patterns of thought
Speaker 2: and behavior in response to emotions, but all are positive.
Speaker 2: Otherwise we wouldn't have them.
Speaker 3: They help us survive.
Speaker 2: And I think a level of high anxiety makes you
Speaker 2: acutely aware of what's going on around in your environment.
Speaker 2: You start to notice like micro expressions. You start to
Speaker 2: notice incongruency in situations or in patterns of communication, even
Speaker 2: if you don't know exactly what's not right, you know,
Speaker 2: like think about it. When you're like really happy, not
Speaker 2: a care in the world. Things are fantastic, and you
Speaker 2: might be able to conceptualize and come out of a
Speaker 2: creative space, but your attention to detail situationally might not
Speaker 2: be as attuned as it is when you have a
Speaker 2: level of anxiety, not a level of anxiety that overpowers
Speaker 2: you and defines you in the moment. But you know,
Speaker 2: a little bit of a NORP and efphrin boost can
Speaker 2: kind of help with focus, can it. Yeah? Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean after a certain while, if you're looking at threat
Speaker 2: and you're at the point where you're scared all the time,
Speaker 2: you're very good at seeing what's in front of you.
Speaker 2: It's like a train going through a tunnel. You have
Speaker 2: that tunnel vision. But whilst you're more aware of what's
Speaker 2: rate in front of you, you're kind of oblivious to
Speaker 2: the possibilities all around you. So it's a dose response.
Speaker 2: But I think a little bit of anxiety is good
Speaker 2: for you. A little bit of anger is good for you.
Speaker 2: Could you imagine the Civil rights movement without a level
Speaker 2: of anger?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well even the Bible talks about
Speaker 1: a little bit of righteous anger. Brother, Bobby, So you
Speaker 1: said that, Body, Our mutual friend Richard Boyd shout out
Speaker 1: to body, said that you kind of almost have this
Speaker 1: ability to know what might happen down the track with
Speaker 1: certain people and like this crystal ball, not that you
Speaker 1: said that, I'm saying that, but how do we and again,
Speaker 1: this is just a conversation piece. This is not advice everyone,
Speaker 1: or this is not necessarily research. But like, for you, anecdotally,
Speaker 1: how do you gain an insight into what somebody's saying
Speaker 1: that they're not actually saying, because you know, I'm more
Speaker 1: interested in the words to me sometimes are almost a
Speaker 1: distraction from the actual story or the message. Riff on
Speaker 1: that for me a little bit like trying to really
Speaker 1: know what people what's the message that's being sent apart
Speaker 1: from the words.
Speaker 2: For me today because I have no idea how I
Speaker 2: developed this in childhood. I mean, you know a lot
Speaker 2: of things you develop at a necessity. It takes a
Speaker 2: lot of reflection and I'm not even going to try
Speaker 2: to unpack it here. But today I listen, and when
Speaker 2: I'm talking about listening, I'm not talking about words. So
Speaker 2: yesterday I had a couple of hundred people in the
Speaker 2: room and we broke them up in exercises into different
Speaker 2: levels of listening. And whenever you go through a course,
Speaker 2: eight out of ten times when someone talks about listening,
Speaker 2: they deal with facts, kind of like Joe Friday.
Speaker 3: Just the facts, ma'am.
Speaker 2: And you've probably been through those sales courses Okay, you're
Speaker 2: gonna listen. And now who remembers two details from the conversation?
Speaker 2: Who remembers three, four or five? Oh?
Speaker 3: My god?
Speaker 2: Seven? First in the front row? That's the best listener. Yeah. No,
Speaker 2: there's more than just words and facts. What are you
Speaker 2: listening for? And factual listening is a lot better than downloading.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna wait until you say something that I
Speaker 2: agree with or prompts me for my next thought or
Speaker 2: or my next line. It's almost like you're listening for cues.
Speaker 2: But what is the person feeling?
Speaker 3: Like if you had to.
Speaker 2: Take your best guess, being a human being connecting with
Speaker 2: another human being, what's the emotion that's driving what the
Speaker 2: person's trying to communicate right now? What's their need? What
Speaker 2: do they really want? And sometimes you know that that
Speaker 2: comes from examining different positions that you listen from. You know,
Speaker 2: Otto Shahma talks about different levels and positioning within generative listening,
Speaker 2: like where in the conversation are you something that's that
Speaker 2: is another way of looking at this commonly used an NLPA.
Speaker 3: What position.
Speaker 2: First position is is my point of view? Second might
Speaker 2: be yours. I might go to my point of view Okay,
Speaker 2: if I was this person and I was saying that,
Speaker 2: what would I want? What would my needs be? What
Speaker 2: would I be feeling? And then maybe shift to Okay,
Speaker 2: but it's not me understanding what I know about this
Speaker 2: person or what I can extrapolate from whatever context is
Speaker 2: present in the communication. What would be what would the
Speaker 2: world feel like from their experience? Okay? What if I
Speaker 2: was just sitting at the table, I wasn't part of
Speaker 2: this conversation, I was just a witness, would I perceive
Speaker 2: anything different? And then maybe even going further out? So
Speaker 2: if I was listening universally to a conversation like this,
Speaker 2: what would any human being in this situation saying this
Speaker 2: because of these reasons be feeling and needing and wanting.
Speaker 2: I think it's that ability to take different positions, almost
Speaker 2: like different camera angles, Yeah, in a scene in a
Speaker 2: film that kind of you know.
Speaker 1: Stephen Covey and many others seek first to understand right
Speaker 1: and theory of mind in psych which is just trying
Speaker 1: to have an insight into someone else's version of right
Speaker 1: now or reality of thoughts or that it's not it's
Speaker 1: not at the front of mind for so many people.
Speaker 1: When when I do corporate stuff. Last week I did
Speaker 1: two gigs and I spoke to I spoke to it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, someone in leadership, and I said, do you
Speaker 1: think about how they think?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 6: And it's and it wasn't a loaded question, but in
Speaker 6: terms of trying to understand, not agree with, not condone,
Speaker 6: not support, not aligne not you know, just just awareness
Speaker 6: and understanding nothing more. And the answer is no, I
Speaker 6: don't really, I haven't really thought about that, you know.
Speaker 1: And then more specific to my research, and then how
Speaker 1: do you think they see you? Again, not something to
Speaker 1: worry about or stress about, but rather to be aware of,
Speaker 1: because if you've got some insight into how this person
Speaker 1: thinks and what their version of right now is, what
Speaker 1: their current experience mental, emotionalps, physical, sociological, whatever. If you've
Speaker 1: got some insight into where they are at in this
Speaker 1: moment with you, then you exponentially increase your chances of
Speaker 1: building rapport and connection and trust. But if you're sitting
Speaker 1: there waiting for them to shut up so you can
Speaker 1: say what you need to say, we're doing the opposite, right.
Speaker 2: I think it's like any skill you develop, it requires
Speaker 2: focused concentration and intentionality And the great thing about intentionality
Speaker 2: is if you're paying attention and you're aware, there are
Speaker 2: times that what you expect to happen happens, and then
Speaker 2: there are deviations from expectations, and that's when you get
Speaker 2: to go back and evaluate, Okay, I wanted this, but
Speaker 2: this happened.
Speaker 3: What got in the way, what went wrong?
Speaker 2: What would I have done differently? If I can have
Speaker 2: this conversation over again, and that's when you start to
Speaker 2: get myollenization. That's when your brain starts to communicate through
Speaker 2: these newly forming pathways with greater efficiency. So the mistakes
Speaker 2: you make, be generous with yourself about them, because not
Speaker 2: only are they part of the process, they might be
Speaker 2: even more important long term than the wins, especially because
Speaker 2: they hurt more. I mean, think about like going out
Speaker 2: and saying the exact right thing to the exact right
Speaker 2: person in a social setting or a date. You probably
Speaker 2: won't think about it twice. You say something that you
Speaker 2: believe is the wrong thing unintentionally but the wrong thing.
Speaker 3: You learn from that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you have a greater probability of learning from
Speaker 2: that because it provokes an emotion, an emotion that's painful
Speaker 2: and it causes you to think and evaluate, So I
Speaker 2: think mistakes and communicat like I was working with an
Speaker 2: executive leadership team a couple of weeks ago, kind of
Speaker 2: like this group coaching, and I offered a reflection and
Speaker 2: people got a little bit nervous because the reflection very
Speaker 2: much to the point. And I do that for a
Speaker 2: reason because I want to hold a sharp mirror up
Speaker 2: to what someone's saying. So instead of going, well, I
Speaker 2: think what I'm hearing here, which is fine, or what
Speaker 2: I'm observing is that I just came out with you're frustrated,
Speaker 2: and like, I don't want to tell someone what they're feeling?
Speaker 2: Whoa whoa whoa? We're going to tell someone it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: first of all, think about the sensitivity, right and the
Speaker 2: awareness that comes out of that statement. Second, when somebody
Speaker 2: tells somebody what they're feeling, where does that come from?
Speaker 2: What's the intention? What does that look like like? When
Speaker 2: somebody's saying something you're about to invalidate them, what are
Speaker 2: you feeling? Where are you feeling that? What does that
Speaker 2: look like? Represent that in your body? Now, when you
Speaker 2: are completely with someone and your intention is to understand
Speaker 2: as much as you possibly can albeit without being them
Speaker 2: what they're experience of life and the situation is at
Speaker 2: the moment and you're offering that reflection back to them.
Speaker 2: What's that emotion? What does that feel like sensationally in
Speaker 2: your body? Is it different? Do you think that's going
Speaker 2: to impact the delivery Because a lot of time, like
Speaker 2: half the time you offer something direct like you're feeling,
Speaker 2: somebody will come back and go yes because they feel seen.
Speaker 2: And it's not like you said anything that was genius.
Speaker 2: It's not an insight you came up with. It's just
Speaker 2: what you were observing. But you didn't have to preface
Speaker 2: it with well, i'm observing this, I'm hearing this, which
Speaker 2: does soften it and it's appropriate sometimes, but you're so
Speaker 2: with them and that person knows because there's congruence between
Speaker 2: intention and what is being reflected and what was felt
Speaker 2: and like, oh, yes, that is exactly what I was
Speaker 2: trying to say, And there's almost like this relief and
Speaker 2: the breakthrough and a gratitude.
Speaker 3: There's a connection because.
Speaker 2: I got what I want most as a human being
Speaker 2: to be seen and heard without a judgment attached to it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a real unique Well I shouldn't say, unique
Speaker 5: but not particularly common kind of awareness is that, you know,
Speaker 5: self other awareness, self other agreement.
Speaker 1: It's called in research and understanding, having an insight into
Speaker 1: someone else's right now, Like we're talking, but then realizing
Speaker 1: in the moment, realizing that you are looking at their
Speaker 1: behavior or their response or their words through the Craig
Speaker 1: window or the Bobby window, like and you're interpreting, you know,
Speaker 1: and trying to trying to recognize your your bias from
Speaker 1: the actual thing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like they maybe they're not maybe they're not frustrated
Speaker 1: at all, but maybe that's what you look like when
Speaker 1: you're frustrated. So your assumption is they look like you
Speaker 1: when you're frustrated, so therefore they're frustrated. And it's a
Speaker 1: it's a special kind of intelligence. I think that you know,
Speaker 1: that social intelligence that seems to be you know, like
Speaker 1: not that common sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is in.
Speaker 1: Business, in coaching and teaching and leadership, in parenting. That
Speaker 1: kind of intelligence and awareness is a it's a fucking superpower,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Like developing any superpower, though it takes a tolerance for risk. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so think about it this way. You can never see
Speaker 2: the wrong thing to the rate person. Who's the right person.
Speaker 2: The rate person is someone that you're invested in and
Speaker 2: what it is and the communication you're having is more important
Speaker 2: than how you might feel about it. Yeah, And that
Speaker 2: requires a lot of attributes. That requires focus, it requires framing, empathy,
Speaker 2: it requires a little bit of courage. So there's a
Speaker 2: lot of things attached to that. But in that moment,
Speaker 2: if I say you're frustrated, yeah, and my tone is
Speaker 2: one of empathy and connection, and they know I'm not
Speaker 2: employing a writing reflex where oh, I see what's wrong
Speaker 2: with you. I see what you're wrong with your thought.
Speaker 2: But here's how I would fix you, or I think
Speaker 2: you're doing this. They feel that if you're wrong, they'll
Speaker 2: tell you. No, no, I don't think it is frustration.
Speaker 2: What I think of actually feeling, and you're misinterpreting is
Speaker 2: that you just got to a further point in the
Speaker 2: conversation because they have an idea of how they're feeling, right,
Speaker 2: they have an idea of what, and sometime it's like,
Speaker 2: oh no, that's not it it. So by contrast, you
Speaker 2: both move forward to appoint a greater clarity. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's not about oh I got that wrong. I
Speaker 2: didn't reflect right. It's like the more you try to
Speaker 2: bring about something, the greater the chance it's going to
Speaker 2: elude you. And I'm not talking about effort. I'm not
Speaker 2: talking about not putting forward at Like, immersive listening takes
Speaker 2: a ton of effort, and that's why a lot of
Speaker 2: people probably don't do it consistently. And I don't think
Speaker 2: you need to do it consistently, but you need to
Speaker 2: do it intentionally in the right situation with the right people.
Speaker 2: But it requires effort. But it's it's something that you
Speaker 2: are allowing to happen. You are evoking, you're not trying
Speaker 2: to push it. It's kind of like getting on stage
Speaker 2: and going, I'm gonna, oh god, how can I deliver
Speaker 2: a great presentation? I really want them to like me.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, good luck. You've already you've already taken yourself
Speaker 2: out of the room. I've spoken.
Speaker 1: I've spoken a bunch about my first few speaking gigs,
Speaker 1: which were understandably horrible for everyone, although actually I didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't hate them. I enjoyed them weirdly. But in
Speaker 1: the middle of you know, the catastrophe that was my
Speaker 1: speaking debut, do you remember, do you remember the first
Speaker 1: time you got paid to speak to a group?
Speaker 2: Yeah, mm hmm, I do, or is that one of
Speaker 2: the first times. It was a small group at that point.
Speaker 2: At that point it was okay, but because because very
Speaker 2: early on I I developed I was so passionate about
Speaker 2: what I was doing that and it scared me. I
Speaker 2: think that's good because again it's like, that's just your biochemistry.
Speaker 2: What are you interpreting from that sensation, that feeling. So
Speaker 2: I was always very nervous because for me, the stakes
Speaker 2: were always very high.
Speaker 3: Speaking was very important. But I was so passionate that
Speaker 3: I was able to.
Speaker 2: Flip my focus to what needs to happen for the
Speaker 2: people in the room. So I became as time went on,
Speaker 2: less and less aware of myself, which is I guess
Speaker 2: by the time I got paid to speak, which was
Speaker 2: somewhere late nineteen nineties, but I know before that, the
Speaker 2: first couple of speaking engagements I have, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I remember I was asked to go speak to a
Speaker 2: room of people. I forgot who set this up, and
Speaker 2: I had done you know, I was just doing team
Speaker 2: meetings at my company, like would you talk about you know,
Speaker 2: fitness and goal setting? And it was more about life
Speaker 2: than fitness. I was like, what do I know about life? Right?
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I'll talk to them about you
Speaker 2: know whatever I know.
Speaker 3: And I wow.
Speaker 2: I showed up and there was this ballroom filled with
Speaker 2: like hundreds of people. If I didn't have my girlfriend
Speaker 2: there with me, I think I would have left. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was so physically sick. And she was like, you're
Speaker 2: already here. It's like, you can't leave. That would be
Speaker 2: the worst possible thing you can do. I'm not letting you.
Speaker 2: You have to go in and you've got to speak
Speaker 2: to these people. And like they were very lovely. They
Speaker 2: were anywhere from like age thirty to like eighty five.
Speaker 2: I think in that room and I have never been
Speaker 2: terrified of a group of people more. And I felt
Speaker 2: like I was just going to vomit. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: learned something important that day. If I don't like scripting presentations,
Speaker 2: I've been getting away from that lately because in my
Speaker 2: work environment, it's like, Okay, what's your data? What are
Speaker 2: you going to say? What are the three main points
Speaker 2: to takeaways? And like, if you don't have that on command,
Speaker 2: you're not doing your homework every single day. If you're
Speaker 2: doing that before presentation, you're probably getting.
Speaker 3: In your own way.
Speaker 2: But when it comes to scripting that there's a point
Speaker 2: where I completely disagree with that, and that's the first
Speaker 2: five to ten minutes. What are you opening with? Because
Speaker 2: if you can get yourself into a state aflow and
Speaker 2: have your opening story, your takeaway points done, if you're
Speaker 2: really there for the right reasons, after you're in a
Speaker 2: state of flow, you're going to start losing awareness of yourself.
Speaker 2: You're going to become more immersed into the room. And
Speaker 2: that's why I learned because the first oh, man, I
Speaker 2: think it was like an hour presentation. The first fifteen
Speaker 2: minutes were I thought I was going to vomit in public.
Speaker 2: I'm surprised I didn't. But as I started getting into
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this is becoming.
Speaker 3: More and more doable. So I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't think it was it was particularly a really
Speaker 2: great presentation, but I think it was. It was a
Speaker 2: decent one. People said they got stuff out of it,
Speaker 2: they enjoyed it, and that's great.
Speaker 3: So I think I'm getting off topic.
Speaker 2: Because I'm nice. My first presentation was Lacklustos.
Speaker 3: A group of eight people.
Speaker 2: We spent like half a day and you know we
Speaker 2: talked about selling personal training, which is great. That's cool.
Speaker 1: Well it's uh, you did better than me, but everyone
Speaker 1: everyone did better than me on.
Speaker 2: Their first gig.
Speaker 1: I think, hi, mate, we've got to wind it up
Speaker 1: because I've got to chat with Dr Jody in seven
Speaker 1: and a half minutes, Dr Jody Richardson. So tell people
Speaker 1: how they can connect with you and listen to you
Speaker 1: and potentially employ you.
Speaker 2: You Kim, you can get a hold of me on
Speaker 2: Robert Copuccio dot com, myself, ipantidote dot com.
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn. You can send me a message, say.
Speaker 2: Hi, and thanks for listening. Thanks buddy.
Speaker 3: There were some valuable takeways here.
Speaker 2: It was good. I loved it. I love chatting to you.
Speaker 2: I love the I love that I.
Speaker 1: Don't have to prep I love that that's probably just
Speaker 1: because I'm lazy, but I love that we always I know,
Speaker 1: I don't really need to think too much because I
Speaker 1: know I just need to ask a question and off
Speaker 1: you go. And with some people that's a bad thing,
Speaker 1: but with you, it's always a good thing.
Speaker 3: So we'll say goodbye. Last thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, going back to going back to the great Richard Boyd.
Speaker 2: He said that at conferences, the most amount of value
Speaker 2: is not in the sessions. It's lead at night, when
Speaker 2: people have had a few drinks and they're too tired
Speaker 2: to care, and they're sitting around a table in flow
Speaker 2: talking about what they really think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I concur I've been in at a few
Speaker 1: of those tables with you all mate, Well, say goodbye, fah,
Speaker 1: but thanks.
Speaker 2: Again, good a Craig, thanks for everything, Thanks buddy, thank you.
Speaker 2: I'll let you prepare, okay, Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 2: I think that some value there conversation. Sorry to cut
Speaker 2: you a bit short.
Speaker 1: I'm just I've just got back to back and I
Speaker 1: probably need three minutes to go and get a.
Speaker 2: Drink water, totally get it. So I'm gonna let I'm
Speaker 2: gonna let you on, so your heads straight on.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right mate, Thanks buddy, take care of have
Speaker 1: a good inbay.
Speaker 2: Love you, buddy,