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Speaker 1: Bobby Kapoucho, Welcome to the You Project.

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Speaker 2: My friend Greig Anthony Hopper. Good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Hey, buddy, I want to do something slightly different today.

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Speaker 1: So rather than you and I wax lyrical about the

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Speaker 1: human experience and the mind and the brain and potential

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Speaker 1: and all of those things, broadly speaking, I want to

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Speaker 1: ask some things.

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Speaker 2: We're not going to.

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Speaker 1: Delve too deep into anything you don't want to delve into,

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Speaker 1: but I want to understand your mind a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And I want because you've got one of the most

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Speaker 1: fascinating minds that I've intersected with. I love how you think.

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Speaker 1: I love how you tell stories. I love how you teach.

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Speaker 1: I love how you coach. I also love, and I

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Speaker 1: mean this with absolute respect and authenticity, I love the

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Speaker 1: journey that you had. While it wasn't a fun journey

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Speaker 1: for you, but to know a fair bit about your

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Speaker 1: childhood and your adolescents and teen years and you're to

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Speaker 1: come out of what wasn't a let's say, an optimal

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Speaker 1: or ideal start to life and to do some pretty

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Speaker 1: amazing things all over the world. So I want to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that and a bit about you.

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Speaker 2: Is that okay with you, yes, but before we get

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Speaker 2: into this, I mean, I appreciate this, but I'm still

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out and understand my mind. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how much luck you or anybody else

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Speaker 2: that's going to have with it.

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Speaker 1: Well let's start there, like what I want to ask

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Speaker 1: you some things, and what I don't want to do

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Speaker 1: is I want to I want to try and spend two, three,

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Speaker 1: four minutes on each thing and then move on. But

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Speaker 1: fuck who knows. But but I feel like we can

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Speaker 1: cover some really good territory. Okay, So when you think

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Speaker 1: about the mind, right, even the mind is a slippery construct.

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Speaker 1: So let's think about your mind. When you say to

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Speaker 1: your you're still trying to understand your mind or yourself,

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Speaker 1: do you mean that seriously? And if you do, how

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Speaker 1: does that understanding arise? And what's the journey and what

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Speaker 1: are the questions? What's the process?

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Speaker 2: I think we have to start with when you say

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Speaker 2: the mind, what exactly is the mind? And I don't

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Speaker 2: even think I know that. I know the most of

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Speaker 2: the scientific concerensus not all of it is. The mind

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Speaker 2: arises from the biochemical and synaptic activity in the brain.

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Speaker 3: That is the mind. But is there any love for us?

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Speaker 2: Because I mean, go ahead, there's yeah.

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Speaker 1: When some people think that you know that conscious awareness,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff that happens in the prefrontal cortex. The thinking,

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Speaker 1: the problem solving, the interpreting the world around us is

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Speaker 1: a brain process, not a mind process. There is no mind.

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Speaker 1: The mind's just a story we invented to help us

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Speaker 1: understand thinking. But so for whatever it is, let's just

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Speaker 1: say we've got one. How have you come to understand

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Speaker 1: your and develop your mind when you didn't have a

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Speaker 1: running start at this?

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Speaker 2: I think as right now, I revel in the fact

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Speaker 2: that I know nothing. When I started realizing how little

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Speaker 2: I know about everything, it was disturbing because I always

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Speaker 2: want to know something. I think when it comes to

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Speaker 2: staying in my lane and kind of like a lane adjacent,

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Speaker 2: kind of like the middle lanes of a five lane freeway,

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Speaker 2: I'm rather curious, and that curiosity and frustration, whilst it

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Speaker 2: drives me understanding how inept I am and so many

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Speaker 2: suff checks was frustrating. I love it now because it

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Speaker 2: just leaves me open to possibility. I think what started

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Speaker 2: with me is understanding that with all those possibilities, I

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Speaker 2: could prove most of them, and not control but influence

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Speaker 2: which direction I was going and how I evolved into

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Speaker 2: a possibility that at the moment excited me. And that

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Speaker 2: was about deciding things, or having the illusion of deciding

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Speaker 2: that I knew I was certain of, even in the

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Speaker 2: midst of complete uncertainty around everything else, eventually, around what

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Speaker 2: are my values? What do things mean to me? Things

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Speaker 2: that happened in the past and the present. They might

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Speaker 2: not have any meaning at all, but we have that

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Speaker 2: imagination and we have the autonomy to decide. Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: if it did mean something, what would be constructive? If

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Speaker 2: that makes any sense? What so happened? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: But I mean, you can't honestly say you don't know anything,

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Speaker 1: because you know a lot.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know facts and figures, and I know

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Speaker 2: about like how I feel about certain things, how I

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Speaker 2: interpret things. But what do I really know? I mean,

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Speaker 2: but think about the conversation we were having before we

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Speaker 2: hit play on this. I think we should start doing

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Speaker 2: that earlier, because those conversations are actually fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Tell people what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you get to the age of Craig and I,

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Speaker 2: you start to deal more consistently with.

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Speaker 3: Matters of life and death.

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Speaker 2: And we both were connected to people who are not

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Speaker 2: here anymore recently or who.

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Speaker 3: Might not be here much longer.

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Speaker 2: And we were talking about where does this person go?

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Speaker 3: So there's this essence, there's this person, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, and there they're them to themselves and then they're gone.

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Speaker 3: What happens to that person?

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Speaker 2: If we're honest, nobody absolutely knows. I mean, people have beliefs,

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Speaker 2: but we don't absolutely know the most basic fundamental aspects

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Speaker 2: of the world we live in life and death, right,

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Speaker 2: the unavoidable, the imminent.

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Speaker 3: We know nothing even about that. So I don't really

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Speaker 3: know all that much.

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Speaker 2: But that's great because I find more. I find more

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Speaker 2: interest and satisfaction living in the question sometimes than I

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Speaker 2: do having the answer.

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Speaker 1: And we were talking about how I told you that

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Speaker 1: one of my one of my best friends got some

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Speaker 1: not very good news yesterday, and which is life impacting news,

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Speaker 1: and and how you know I wasn't expecting that obviously.

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Speaker 1: I was just going about my day, probably a bit

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Speaker 1: caught up in my own self importance and bullshit and

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Speaker 1: my to do list and how busy I am, And

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Speaker 1: you know, oh, woe is made. I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of self pity. But you know, all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, I get a phone call and I talked

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Speaker 1: to this guy, and everything else instantly is unimportant in

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Speaker 1: that moment anyway, right, And I'm not saying that nothing

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Speaker 1: else matters, of course it does.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you and I were saying.

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Speaker 1: How how incredibly quickly perspective changes and focus and priority changes,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, yeah, this is right now. And

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Speaker 1: in that moment, it's like I wouldn't have cared if

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Speaker 1: I had chatted with him, been on the phone with

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Speaker 1: him for the next five hours, Like everything else didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I don't care what else I've going on now,

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Speaker 1: Nothing is this important as this moment. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: think that it's interesting that sometimes we have to have

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Speaker 1: not always, but sometimes things happen that are, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the ballpark of tragic, to have a perspective that

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Speaker 1: maybe well for me anyway, and maybe I should have

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Speaker 1: more often.

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Speaker 2: I think we're more I mean the film Fight Club

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Speaker 2: the book actually, but I think more people have seen

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Speaker 2: the film at this point than read the book. That

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Speaker 2: was the unnamed character in part one. There's actually a

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Speaker 2: graphic novel that's a Fight Club Part two. So Ed

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Speaker 2: Norton was playing the role of a guy who was

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Speaker 2: revealed to be named Sebastian, and that was the whole

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Speaker 2: point when he was having an existential crisis and like,

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Speaker 2: what is the meaning of all of this? He started

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Speaker 2: going to cancer support groups because he said, it's only

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Speaker 2: when people get to that point where it's the end

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Speaker 2: of their life that they talk about something vulnerable and

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Speaker 2: visceral and real. And I think, you know, like you said,

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Speaker 2: of course things are important, Like even the trivial aspects

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Speaker 2: of our day. Are they as important as matters of

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Speaker 2: life and death. No, But if they weren't important at all,

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't do anything, because like, what's the point. So

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Speaker 2: they are important or they connect to things are important.

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Speaker 2: But every once in a while, we're knocked out of

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Speaker 2: our routine and we're brought face to face with something

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Speaker 2: that is of deep importance. And I think that's when

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Speaker 2: we get really vulnerable, when we open up and we

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Speaker 2: drop the mask and all the other bullshit and facades

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Speaker 2: that we navigate through our world with. It really doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter because there's no time. We don't have time for

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Speaker 2: that shit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess also, like there's the thing, and

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Speaker 1: then there's your story about the thing and your one

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Speaker 1: to ten importance writing. You know, there was a time

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Speaker 1: where for me, and this is maybe a silly example,

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Speaker 1: but it's practical example. For me making a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of money every week, it was about an eight out

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Speaker 1: of ten important because that's where I was in my life,

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Speaker 1: and I had employees, and I had all these moves

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Speaker 1: parts in order for me to survive financially and then

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Speaker 1: to build a career and to you know, not liv

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Speaker 1: an impoverished life. I needed to hit these gada da

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Speaker 1: da da all that. And now it's not that I'm

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Speaker 1: some wealthy, retiring mogul, but just the way that I

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Speaker 1: think about money and the importance it has for me.

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Speaker 1: It's not an eight anymore, Like I still need it.

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Speaker 1: I've got to pay the bills, But the exact same

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Speaker 1: thing that we're talking about is for me a two

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Speaker 1: or three.

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Speaker 2: It's just a thing.

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Speaker 1: It's a resource that helps me do stuff. And it's

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Speaker 1: not that money is different or that money is required

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Speaker 1: more or less in our culture, probably more, but it's that,

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Speaker 1: like whatever that thing is, your relationship with it changes,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like for some people it's really important that

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Speaker 1: they're in a relationship in the next three weeks. That's

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Speaker 1: like a not like their priority is that they can't

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Speaker 1: be alone, they can't be single, They've got to be

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Speaker 1: And for other people it's like it's not even a two.

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Speaker 1: So it's not so much necessarily that there's an arbitrary

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Speaker 1: level of importance about things, but rather our perspective of that. Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I told you about my friend yesterday,

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Speaker 1: and I've also shared this, I think two or three

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Speaker 1: times on the show. But someone really close to me

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Speaker 1: and died passed away between Christmas and Year and New Year,

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Speaker 1: and I sat with her on Christmas Day and just it.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was sad and beautiful and all of that.

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Speaker 1: But I had a profound experience on me because I

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Speaker 1: had this awareness in the moment that most of the

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Speaker 1: people in my life that have passed away, I never

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Speaker 1: had a time with them where I sat with them

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Speaker 1: saying goodbye because I knew this would be the last time.

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Speaker 1: You know, she was at death's door, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: and she was in hospital in palliative care, and she

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Speaker 1: knew and I you and it's just like it's kind

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Speaker 1: of painful and beautiful and it gives you this I

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Speaker 1: don't know for me, this awareness and this I don't know,

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Speaker 1: this perspective that I guess I can't carry that all

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Speaker 1: the time because I probably wouldn't get anything done. But

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Speaker 1: definitely I need more of it, you know me.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, I think what's beautiful about moments like that? As

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Speaker 2: painful as there are, I can't imagine many things more

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Speaker 2: painful than losing someone you deeply care about, not only

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Speaker 2: that you deeply care about, but who brings value and

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Speaker 2: emotion into your life.

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Speaker 3: I think what is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: About that is just that raw connection where you talk

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Speaker 2: about stories, like what's our story that we tell ourselves

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Speaker 2: about life?

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Speaker 3: And what's the meaning of all this?

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Speaker 2: Well, he's a different meaning for everyone. Maybe maybe there's

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Speaker 2: this overarching meaning that we'll never discover in this plane

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Speaker 2: of existence, or maybe there isn't any and it's up

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Speaker 2: to us to decide what it means. But I think,

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Speaker 2: in one way.

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Speaker 3: Shape or formance, to connect to one another.

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Speaker 2: So my wife had asked me to watch this documentary

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Speaker 2: and it was about pets and there was this one

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Speaker 2: guy that they followed, like, you know, he's an old guy,

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Speaker 2: but They followed him from when he was really young

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Speaker 2: and he was living in the inner city in South Washington,

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Speaker 2: d C. And he just was like, I got to

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Speaker 2: get out of this place, like, look at this place,

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Speaker 2: look around me.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I grew up in Cornell and Brooklyn, and.

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Speaker 2: I resonated what that feels like. And he started getting

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Speaker 2: into taking care of animals and like different types of

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Speaker 2: injured birds like owls and falcons, and would he would

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Speaker 2: nurse them back to health and release them back into

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Speaker 2: the wild, and people would give him messages like if

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Speaker 2: they're suffering, or they lost the loved one, or they

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Speaker 2: were sick, and it was almost this prayer and he

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Speaker 2: would attach them to these animals and release them with

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Speaker 2: this prayer and almost like it was a surrender.

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Speaker 3: And then it was horses, and it was like.

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Speaker 2: And I'm watching this And there was something he said

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Speaker 2: where whenever I help an animal, I feel like I've

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Speaker 2: done my small part.

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Speaker 3: It's a very very small part. I thought, Wow, small

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Speaker 3: is really significant, because this guy has found a way

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Speaker 3: to connect to creatures and to connect to people around

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Speaker 3: him through the work he does and make a small

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Speaker 3: yet very significant difference through kindness. I mean whatever we're

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Speaker 3: here for, it's got to be in my mind to

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Speaker 3: connect with one another, to somehow touch something in one another.

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Speaker 3: You cannot do alone, which is why so much and

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Speaker 3: talking about self help advice, so much of the being

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Speaker 3: independent and not needing anybody. And Tiff and I had

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Speaker 3: a podcast episode where somebody who's quite famous was talking

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Speaker 3: about like, just avoid friends, avoid deep connections.

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Speaker 2: It's like, wow, Like, forget about all of the countless

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Speaker 2: empirical evidence on the importance and the nature of relationships

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Speaker 2: to well being, because none of it contradicts that. None

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Speaker 2: of it says, well, well, you know you better off

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Speaker 2: being disconnected like some people. No, doesn't show up. That's

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Speaker 2: your life philosophy. Just think about, like what that feels

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Speaker 2: like the best moments in your life, because we all

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Speaker 2: have these moments that show up as sacred for us.

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Speaker 2: Who else was part of that? They never occur in isolation.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know. Maybe this fine a need for

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Speaker 2: a life is what makes it absolutely sop urgently beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I'd say, what do we do? How do we fill that?

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Speaker 1: So tell me about this for you, this connect, this deep.

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Speaker 1: So I could get stuff wrong here, so correct what

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Speaker 1: I get wrong?

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Speaker 2: If I get anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: But like, so we're talking about this deep connection with

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Speaker 1: humans which we all need. We might say we don't need,

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Speaker 1: but on some level we all need at least a

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Speaker 1: person at some stage maybe hopefully we'll have many beautiful

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Speaker 1: people connected and intertwined with us through our life. Do

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Speaker 1: you have Have you found it difficult over the years

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Speaker 1: to trust people deeply to open that door? Because you

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Speaker 1: are like me a bit in that you can do

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Speaker 1: the persona thing. You can, you can talk, you can,

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Speaker 1: you can build rapport and connection. You've got all the words,

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Speaker 1: you've got the charisma, you've got all the shit that

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Speaker 1: you need to be the Bobby Show. But underneath the

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Speaker 1: Bobby Show and I know behind the Bobby curtain and

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Speaker 1: you know behind the Great curtain, Like, has it been

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Speaker 1: a struggle for you to get close close, like real

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Speaker 1: close with people and to trust people? And maybe tell

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Speaker 1: us about that either way?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the short answer is yes, there is

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Speaker 2: nothing that I talk about, or write about or teach

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Speaker 2: that I have not personally at some point struggled with

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Speaker 2: and been a hypocrite in relation to I mean, we

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Speaker 2: both know someone very well who said to me quite

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Speaker 2: emphatically how dare you even call yourself a coach? And

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Speaker 2: I think you know when I think we teach what

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Speaker 2: we need the most. And I have always strived to

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Speaker 2: be absolutely consistent with what I.

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Speaker 3: Say and what I do and what I believe.

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Speaker 2: And there are times in my life where I have

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Speaker 2: failed epically in that. And you know, the way I

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Speaker 2: grew up, I would imagine that I would have had

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Speaker 2: a very hard time trusting people, but it was the opposite.

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Speaker 3: In the beginning in my twenties, I trusted.

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Speaker 2: Everybody openly, like I'll get into business with you, It's

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Speaker 2: like I'll meet you on emotional level, Like there was

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Speaker 2: just like whatever someone said, I took it at phase value,

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Speaker 2: like I will extend trust until you prove me wrong,

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Speaker 2: rather than I don't trust anybody until you prove to

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Speaker 2: me that that I can trust you, or respect has

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Speaker 2: to be earned. I was like no, no, like who,

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Speaker 2: like who the fuck am I that you have to

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Speaker 2: earn my respect. I'm going to give you respect freely.

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Speaker 3: Until you prove me wrong.

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Speaker 4: And a lot of people proved me wrong, Like I

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Speaker 4: had people that refused to work with me, or they

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Speaker 4: were concerned to get into any business dealing with me

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Speaker 4: because they're like, you are very naive and you trust.

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Speaker 3: People to the point where it can hurt you.

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Speaker 2: And if I'm close to you and like your success

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Speaker 2: is tied into my success, well that could hurt me.

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Speaker 2: Another person who we know very very well, very close

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Speaker 2: personal in front of mine. I was like, Capuccio, you're

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Speaker 2: not allowed to talk to anybody, sign anything, agree to

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Speaker 2: anything unless one of us are around you. And that

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Speaker 2: was the because if you told me this is my intention,

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Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, It's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's do that. And I would get burned a lot,

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Speaker 2: and I would I would reconcile. You know that has

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Speaker 2: more to do with that person than it does with me. Hmmm.

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Speaker 2: And the chances you know what I mean, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to create something. If you do something and that violates

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Speaker 2: me or that betrays me, that's on you. There's nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with me. I'm going to go out and

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Speaker 2: do this again. But it got to a point where

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Speaker 2: that was no longer the case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like you and I are similar in

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Speaker 1: that in that when I was when I was young,

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Speaker 1: I was you know, flawed, but well meaning and very trusting,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know I think I had a pretty

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Speaker 1: simple childhood. Like I grew up in rural Victoria, grew

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Speaker 1: up in the country.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a.

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Speaker 1: Particularly complicated existence, and most people said what they meant

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Speaker 1: and meant what they said and did what they said

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Speaker 1: they were going to do. And it wasn't like it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe it was more complicated and I

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Speaker 1: was just simple, but it seems simple. And then I

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Speaker 1: started my businesses, I pretty much like you. I just

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Speaker 1: trusted everybody and took them at face value, and then

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Speaker 1: you realize, oh, people are stealing from me, people are

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Speaker 1: taking things, people are lying to be, people are saying

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Speaker 1: one thing and doing and then you're like, oh oh.

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Speaker 1: And then so I went from and this is probably

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Speaker 1: not a good thing to admit, but this is just true.

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Speaker 1: So I went from kind of trusting everybody to then

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Speaker 1: not well, not that I didn't trust anybody, but I

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Speaker 1: didn't automatically trust people anymore. Like it. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this is an indictment on me, but I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I And so even in the last few years, I've

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Speaker 1: said to people that I've come into contact with that

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Speaker 1: I'm maybe going to do some kind of alliance or

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Speaker 1: we've got some kind of strategic arrangement. In a nice way,

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Speaker 1: I let them know that I don't trust them, but

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Speaker 1: also I say I don't distrust you. I just don't

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Speaker 1: know yet, just because what you're telling me. I've had

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Speaker 1: one hundred people tell me a version of the same

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Speaker 1: thing that you're telling me and then prove to be

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Speaker 1: either dishonest or unreliable or not trustworthy. And so it's

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Speaker 1: not about you. It's about my history. But I bring

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Speaker 1: my baggage with me, and so for me, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is a good, bad, good or

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Speaker 1: bad thing. You can tell me what you think, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I will definitely give people the opportunity, but in

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Speaker 1: terms of unreservedly trusting them, that does not happen quickly.

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Speaker 2: I think somewhere in the middle is probably the wisest

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Speaker 2: place to be. I am a nature a neurotic individual,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes neurotic individuals can see details in their environment.

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Speaker 2: Because I had to, I had, like again trying but

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Speaker 2: explain to people why you had to?

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Speaker 1: And sorry, two questions, One, why did you have to?

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Speaker 1: And to explain to people a little bit as much

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Speaker 1: as you want your neuroses.

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Speaker 2: Well, i operate on a high level of anxiety, and

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Speaker 2: I'm always thinking, Okay, what can go wrong in this situation,

387
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Speaker 2: what's the and I'm going to go somewhere with this

388
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Speaker 2: around trust? And there's a risk benefit ratio in every situation.

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Speaker 2: You learn this when you're a trainer, like you're selecting

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Speaker 2: an exercise.

391
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Speaker 3: There are so many.

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Speaker 2: Variables that you need to assess because there's a risk

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Speaker 2: and there's a benefit, and you don't want to be

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Speaker 2: on the wrong side of that ratio, especially when a

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Speaker 2: client's and trusting themselves to you. So I'm always looking

396
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Speaker 2: for that because if I misread a situation growing up,

397
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Speaker 2: I could get hurt very very badly. I don't mean

398
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Speaker 2: them yes, emotionally, but physically, or I could die. So

399
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Speaker 2: my life was at stake. So when I'm highly emotionally invested,

400
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: I have so many blind spots. But if I sit

401
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Speaker 2: down and I look at a situation like Richard Boyd,

402
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: I've been multiple businesses with him, which was like you

403
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: could tell what's gonna happen like months out. It's almost

404
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: like you could tell exactly what people are going to do,

405
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Speaker 2: how things are going to work out. And it's not

406
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Speaker 2: because like, I'm a genius at pattern recognitions because my

407
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: survival depended on me being able to do that with

408
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Speaker 2: the people around me that were a constant threat to me.

409
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Speaker 2: But let's talk about trust and let's talk about risk

410
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Speaker 2: benefit because somebody gave me really good advice years ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you know when something makes so much

412
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Speaker 2: sense to you logically and in your heart, you know

413
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 2: it's true, but you're in so much pain that you're like, yeah,

414
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Speaker 2: I don't think so. And that's kind of the attitude

415
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 2: I took, and man if I paid for it. So

416
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Speaker 2: one of my clients was a relatively famous.

417
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Speaker 3: Comedian in the United States.

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00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to mention their name because of privacy,

419
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: but I will say they were on The Daily Show

420
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Speaker 2: with John Stewart at some point, so I won't say

421
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: any more than that. But this is a really intelligent individual,

422
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: obviously talented guy, and just a beautiful human. I really

423
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 2: enjoyed our relationship and we were out having some coffee

424
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Speaker 2: and somebody sole from me and it wasn't just money,

425
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Speaker 2: it was intellectual property. It was my heart, my soul,

426
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Speaker 2: part of my identity, and it was one of those

427
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: things where I led with complete trust in a deal,

428
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Speaker 2: and that trust turned out to be really stupid on

429
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Speaker 2: my part. But who knew right hindsight, and we're sitting there,

430
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Speaker 2: I'm talking about what do I do about this? And

431
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: this is an individual who you know, he's in this arena,

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Speaker 2: and you know he's got great intellectual property and he's

433
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Speaker 2: dealt with this stuff. And he said a few things

434
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: to me that were brilliant. He said, first of all,

435
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Speaker 2: if you're any good at all, people are going to

436
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: steal from you. If nobody's imitating you, nobody's stealing from you.

437
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: What you're putting out there is not worthwhile, it's not

438
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: very valuable. So do you want to put out valuable

439
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: stuff or do you want to protect yourself? And he said,

440
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: there's a few things that you can do. You could sue,

441
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: You could go after this person. You have enough proof,

442
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: there's the evidence there, he said, But understand it's going

443
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: to be very costly, not just financially but in terms

444
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: of time and energy. And no matter what you gain

445
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: if you come out on the right side of that lawsuit,

446
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: you got to think about what you're absolutely going to lose.

447
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: He said, you are going to lose the creative energy

448
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 2: and source where all of your ideas and creativity come

449
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: from that.

450
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 3: Make you you.

451
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: You're going to lose your originality in this process. And

452
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: he said, you know, when people imitate you, there's just

453
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 2: something that instinctively, any audience knows, and that is an original.

454
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: They can listen to the same material with the same inflections,

455
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: the same timing, and know this material just doesn't feel right.

456
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: It's not innate to the person delivering it. They're not

457
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: the source, they're not the author of what they're trying

458
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: to deliver, and they can listen to someone else and go,

459
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: that's it. There's there's this resonance. It's truthful, it's authentic.

460
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: It's like, you got you gotta make a decision about

461
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: what you're willing to give up. And the cost of

462
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: chasing everyone is much greater than just letting it go

463
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: and keep creating, staying one step ahead. I heard that

464
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: was like wow, thank you.

465
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I didn't listen. It's like and he was right, Wow,

466
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: the cost of that.

467
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: Is so steep. Yeah.

468
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: I I mean, as you know, I write on the

469
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: white board, I take a photograph for the white board,

470
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: and then I put it up on Instagram. And I've

471
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: done that. I think it's about six thousand times, and

472
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: not all of them are terrible, a few of them

473
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: are okay, and some of them that are okay get

474
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: ripped off a lot, I mean a lot like that.

475
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: I wrote twelve fucking Rules for success, probably seven or

476
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: eight years ago now, and that's been plagiarized, turned into

477
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: posters and cups and teetowels and pieces of art and

478
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: all products for sale online like word for word my

479
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: work without my name on it, of course. And yeah,

480
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: I went through that where I actually had a couple

481
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: of lawyers go to me who follow me, like do

482
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: you want me to do? And I'm like, I thought

483
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: about all of that, and for the potential I do

484
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: the cost benefit analysis and not just financially but emotionally, mentally, creatively,

485
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I want to invest my energy in that.

486
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: That's not and I just go, okay, it's And if

487
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm if I'm really not all about money and I'm

488
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: really just about or I try to be as much

489
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: as possible about putting good stuff into the world, then

490
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: fuck it, you know. And I don't want people ripping

491
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: off my shit, but I know they're going to anyway,

492
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to your anxiety, and you

493
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: said something like I'm anxiety driven or whatever.

494
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: What is what is the.

495
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: What is the upside of anxiety for you? Or what

496
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: is potentially the upside if there is one? Like how

497
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: does your anxiety serve you in a positive way?

498
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: If it does, I think there's an upside of every emotion.

499
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 2: I don't believe in positive and negative emotions. I believe

500
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: there are negative interpretations, behaviors and ingreened patterns of thought

501
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: and behavior in response to emotions, but all are positive.

502
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: Otherwise we wouldn't have them.

503
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 3: They help us survive.

504
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: And I think a level of high anxiety makes you

505
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: acutely aware of what's going on around in your environment.

506
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: You start to notice like micro expressions. You start to

507
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: notice incongruency in situations or in patterns of communication, even

508
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: if you don't know exactly what's not right, you know,

509
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: like think about it. When you're like really happy, not

510
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: a care in the world. Things are fantastic, and you

511
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: might be able to conceptualize and come out of a

512
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: creative space, but your attention to detail situationally might not

513
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 2: be as attuned as it is when you have a

514
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: level of anxiety, not a level of anxiety that overpowers

515
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: you and defines you in the moment. But you know,

516
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: a little bit of a NORP and efphrin boost can

517
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: kind of help with focus, can it. Yeah? Yeah, I

518
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: mean after a certain while, if you're looking at threat

519
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: and you're at the point where you're scared all the time,

520
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: you're very good at seeing what's in front of you.

521
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: It's like a train going through a tunnel. You have

522
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: that tunnel vision. But whilst you're more aware of what's

523
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: rate in front of you, you're kind of oblivious to

524
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: the possibilities all around you. So it's a dose response.

525
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: But I think a little bit of anxiety is good

526
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: for you. A little bit of anger is good for you.

527
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: Could you imagine the Civil rights movement without a level

528
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: of anger?

529
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well even the Bible talks about

530
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: a little bit of righteous anger. Brother, Bobby, So you

531
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: said that, Body, Our mutual friend Richard Boyd shout out

532
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: to body, said that you kind of almost have this

533
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: ability to know what might happen down the track with

534
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: certain people and like this crystal ball, not that you

535
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: said that, I'm saying that, but how do we and again,

536
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: this is just a conversation piece. This is not advice everyone,

537
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: or this is not necessarily research. But like, for you, anecdotally,

538
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: how do you gain an insight into what somebody's saying

539
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: that they're not actually saying, because you know, I'm more

540
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: interested in the words to me sometimes are almost a

541
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: distraction from the actual story or the message. Riff on

542
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: that for me a little bit like trying to really

543
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: know what people what's the message that's being sent apart

544
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: from the words.

545
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: For me today because I have no idea how I

546
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: developed this in childhood. I mean, you know a lot

547
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: of things you develop at a necessity. It takes a

548
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: lot of reflection and I'm not even going to try

549
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: to unpack it here. But today I listen, and when

550
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm talking about listening, I'm not talking about words. So

551
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: yesterday I had a couple of hundred people in the

552
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,719
Speaker 2: room and we broke them up in exercises into different

553
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: levels of listening. And whenever you go through a course,

554
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: eight out of ten times when someone talks about listening,

555
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: they deal with facts, kind of like Joe Friday.

556
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: Just the facts, ma'am.

557
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: And you've probably been through those sales courses Okay, you're

558
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: gonna listen. And now who remembers two details from the conversation?

559
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: Who remembers three, four or five? Oh?

560
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: My god?

561
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: Seven? First in the front row? That's the best listener. Yeah. No,

562
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: there's more than just words and facts. What are you

563
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: listening for? And factual listening is a lot better than downloading.

564
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna wait until you say something that I

565
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 2: agree with or prompts me for my next thought or

566
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: or my next line. It's almost like you're listening for cues.

567
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: But what is the person feeling?

568
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 3: Like if you had to.

569
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: Take your best guess, being a human being connecting with

570
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 2: another human being, what's the emotion that's driving what the

571
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: person's trying to communicate right now? What's their need? What

572
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: do they really want? And sometimes you know that that

573
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: comes from examining different positions that you listen from. You know,

574
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: Otto Shahma talks about different levels and positioning within generative listening,

575
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: like where in the conversation are you something that's that

576
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: is another way of looking at this commonly used an NLPA.

577
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 3: What position.

578
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: First position is is my point of view? Second might

579
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 2: be yours. I might go to my point of view Okay,

580
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: if I was this person and I was saying that,

581
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 2: what would I want? What would my needs be? What

582
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 2: would I be feeling? And then maybe shift to Okay,

583
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: but it's not me understanding what I know about this

584
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: person or what I can extrapolate from whatever context is

585
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: present in the communication. What would be what would the

586
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: world feel like from their experience? Okay? What if I

587
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: was just sitting at the table, I wasn't part of

588
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: this conversation, I was just a witness, would I perceive

589
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: anything different? And then maybe even going further out? So

590
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: if I was listening universally to a conversation like this,

591
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: what would any human being in this situation saying this

592
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 2: because of these reasons be feeling and needing and wanting.

593
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: I think it's that ability to take different positions, almost

594
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: like different camera angles, Yeah, in a scene in a

595
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 2: film that kind of you know.

596
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: Stephen Covey and many others seek first to understand right

597
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: and theory of mind in psych which is just trying

598
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: to have an insight into someone else's version of right

599
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: now or reality of thoughts or that it's not it's

600
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: not at the front of mind for so many people.

601
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: When when I do corporate stuff. Last week I did

602
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: two gigs and I spoke to I spoke to it

603
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, someone in leadership, and I said, do you

604
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: think about how they think?

605
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 5: Like?

606
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: What do you think?

607
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 6: And it's and it wasn't a loaded question, but in

608
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 6: terms of trying to understand, not agree with, not condone,

609
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 6: not support, not aligne not you know, just just awareness

610
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 6: and understanding nothing more. And the answer is no, I

611
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 6: don't really, I haven't really thought about that, you know.

612
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 1: And then more specific to my research, and then how

613
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: do you think they see you? Again, not something to

614
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: worry about or stress about, but rather to be aware of,

615
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: because if you've got some insight into how this person

616
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: thinks and what their version of right now is, what

617
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: their current experience mental, emotionalps, physical, sociological, whatever. If you've

618
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: got some insight into where they are at in this

619
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: moment with you, then you exponentially increase your chances of

620
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: building rapport and connection and trust. But if you're sitting

621
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: there waiting for them to shut up so you can

622
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 1: say what you need to say, we're doing the opposite, right.

623
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: I think it's like any skill you develop, it requires

624
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 2: focused concentration and intentionality And the great thing about intentionality

625
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 2: is if you're paying attention and you're aware, there are

626
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 2: times that what you expect to happen happens, and then

627
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: there are deviations from expectations, and that's when you get

628
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: to go back and evaluate, Okay, I wanted this, but

629
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 2: this happened.

630
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 3: What got in the way, what went wrong?

631
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: What would I have done differently? If I can have

632
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: this conversation over again, and that's when you start to

633
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: get myollenization. That's when your brain starts to communicate through

634
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: these newly forming pathways with greater efficiency. So the mistakes

635
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: you make, be generous with yourself about them, because not

636
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: only are they part of the process, they might be

637
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 2: even more important long term than the wins, especially because

638
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: they hurt more. I mean, think about like going out

639
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: and saying the exact right thing to the exact right

640
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 2: person in a social setting or a date. You probably

641
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: won't think about it twice. You say something that you

642
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: believe is the wrong thing unintentionally but the wrong thing.

643
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: You learn from that.

644
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you have a greater probability of learning from

645
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 2: that because it provokes an emotion, an emotion that's painful

646
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: and it causes you to think and evaluate, So I

647
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: think mistakes and communicat like I was working with an

648
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: executive leadership team a couple of weeks ago, kind of

649
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: like this group coaching, and I offered a reflection and

650
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: people got a little bit nervous because the reflection very

651
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: much to the point. And I do that for a

652
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: reason because I want to hold a sharp mirror up

653
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: to what someone's saying. So instead of going, well, I

654
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: think what I'm hearing here, which is fine, or what

655
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: I'm observing is that I just came out with you're frustrated,

656
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: and like, I don't want to tell someone what they're feeling?

657
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: Whoa whoa whoa? We're going to tell someone it's like, oh, well,

658
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: first of all, think about the sensitivity, right and the

659
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: awareness that comes out of that statement. Second, when somebody

660
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: tells somebody what they're feeling, where does that come from?

661
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 2: What's the intention? What does that look like like? When

662
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 2: somebody's saying something you're about to invalidate them, what are

663
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: you feeling? Where are you feeling that? What does that

664
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: look like? Represent that in your body? Now, when you

665
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: are completely with someone and your intention is to understand

666
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: as much as you possibly can albeit without being them

667
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: what they're experience of life and the situation is at

668
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: the moment and you're offering that reflection back to them.

669
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: What's that emotion? What does that feel like sensationally in

670
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: your body? Is it different? Do you think that's going

671
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: to impact the delivery Because a lot of time, like

672
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: half the time you offer something direct like you're feeling,

673
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: somebody will come back and go yes because they feel seen.

674
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: And it's not like you said anything that was genius.

675
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: It's not an insight you came up with. It's just

676
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: what you were observing. But you didn't have to preface

677
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,479
Speaker 2: it with well, i'm observing this, I'm hearing this, which

678
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: does soften it and it's appropriate sometimes, but you're so

679
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: with them and that person knows because there's congruence between

680
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 2: intention and what is being reflected and what was felt

681
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: and like, oh, yes, that is exactly what I was

682
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: trying to say, And there's almost like this relief and

683
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: the breakthrough and a gratitude.

684
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 3: There's a connection because.

685
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 2: I got what I want most as a human being

686
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: to be seen and heard without a judgment attached to it.

687
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a real unique Well I shouldn't say, unique

688
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 5: but not particularly common kind of awareness is that, you know,

689
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 5: self other awareness, self other agreement.

690
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: It's called in research and understanding, having an insight into

691
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: someone else's right now, Like we're talking, but then realizing

692
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: in the moment, realizing that you are looking at their

693
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: behavior or their response or their words through the Craig

694
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: window or the Bobby window, like and you're interpreting, you know,

695
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 1: and trying to trying to recognize your your bias from

696
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: the actual thing.

697
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: You know.

698
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: It's like they maybe they're not maybe they're not frustrated

699
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: at all, but maybe that's what you look like when

700
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: you're frustrated. So your assumption is they look like you

701
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: when you're frustrated, so therefore they're frustrated. And it's a

702
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: it's a special kind of intelligence. I think that you know,

703
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: that social intelligence that seems to be you know, like

704
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 1: not that common sometimes.

705
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is that is in.

706
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: Business, in coaching and teaching and leadership, in parenting. That

707
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: kind of intelligence and awareness is a it's a fucking superpower,

708
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: you know.

709
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 2: Like developing any superpower, though it takes a tolerance for risk. Yeah,

710
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 2: so think about it this way. You can never see

711
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: the wrong thing to the rate person. Who's the right person.

712
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: The rate person is someone that you're invested in and

713
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: what it is and the communication you're having is more important

714
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 2: than how you might feel about it. Yeah, And that

715
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: requires a lot of attributes. That requires focus, it requires framing, empathy,

716
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 2: it requires a little bit of courage. So there's a

717
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: lot of things attached to that. But in that moment,

718
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: if I say you're frustrated, yeah, and my tone is

719
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 2: one of empathy and connection, and they know I'm not

720
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: employing a writing reflex where oh, I see what's wrong

721
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: with you. I see what you're wrong with your thought.

722
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: But here's how I would fix you, or I think

723
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: you're doing this. They feel that if you're wrong, they'll

724
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: tell you. No, no, I don't think it is frustration.

725
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: What I think of actually feeling, and you're misinterpreting is

726
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: that you just got to a further point in the

727
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: conversation because they have an idea of how they're feeling, right,

728
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: they have an idea of what, and sometime it's like,

729
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 2: oh no, that's not it it. So by contrast, you

730
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: both move forward to appoint a greater clarity. Yeah. Yeah,

731
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: and that's not about oh I got that wrong. I

732
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 2: didn't reflect right. It's like the more you try to

733
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: bring about something, the greater the chance it's going to

734
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: elude you. And I'm not talking about effort. I'm not

735
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: talking about not putting forward at Like, immersive listening takes

736
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: a ton of effort, and that's why a lot of

737
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: people probably don't do it consistently. And I don't think

738
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: you need to do it consistently, but you need to

739
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: do it intentionally in the right situation with the right people.

740
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: But it requires effort. But it's it's something that you

741
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: are allowing to happen. You are evoking, you're not trying

742
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: to push it. It's kind of like getting on stage

743
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 2: and going, I'm gonna, oh god, how can I deliver

744
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 2: a great presentation? I really want them to like me.

745
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, good luck. You've already you've already taken yourself

746
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: out of the room. I've spoken.

747
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: I've spoken a bunch about my first few speaking gigs,

748
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: which were understandably horrible for everyone, although actually I didn't

749
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: I didn't hate them. I enjoyed them weirdly. But in

750
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: the middle of you know, the catastrophe that was my

751
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: speaking debut, do you remember, do you remember the first

752
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: time you got paid to speak to a group?

753
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, mm hmm, I do, or is that one of

754
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: the first times. It was a small group at that point.

755
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: At that point it was okay, but because because very

756
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: early on I I developed I was so passionate about

757
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: what I was doing that and it scared me. I

758
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: think that's good because again it's like, that's just your biochemistry.

759
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: What are you interpreting from that sensation, that feeling. So

760
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: I was always very nervous because for me, the stakes

761
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 2: were always very high.

762
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 3: Speaking was very important. But I was so passionate that

763
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 3: I was able to.

764
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: Flip my focus to what needs to happen for the

765
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: people in the room. So I became as time went on,

766
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: less and less aware of myself, which is I guess

767
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: by the time I got paid to speak, which was

768
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: somewhere late nineteen nineties, but I know before that, the

769
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: first couple of speaking engagements I have, Oh my god,

770
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 2: I remember I was asked to go speak to a

771
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: room of people. I forgot who set this up, and

772
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 2: I had done you know, I was just doing team

773
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: meetings at my company, like would you talk about you know,

774
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: fitness and goal setting? And it was more about life

775
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: than fitness. I was like, what do I know about life? Right?

776
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I'll talk to them about you

777
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: know whatever I know.

778
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: And I wow.

779
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 2: I showed up and there was this ballroom filled with

780
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 2: like hundreds of people. If I didn't have my girlfriend

781
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 2: there with me, I think I would have left. Yeah.

782
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 2: I was so physically sick. And she was like, you're

783
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: already here. It's like, you can't leave. That would be

784
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: the worst possible thing you can do. I'm not letting you.

785
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: You have to go in and you've got to speak

786
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: to these people. And like they were very lovely. They

787
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: were anywhere from like age thirty to like eighty five.

788
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 2: I think in that room and I have never been

789
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: terrified of a group of people more. And I felt

790
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: like I was just going to vomit. And yeah, I

791
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 2: learned something important that day. If I don't like scripting presentations,

792
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: I've been getting away from that lately because in my

793
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: work environment, it's like, Okay, what's your data? What are

794
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: you going to say? What are the three main points

795
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: to takeaways? And like, if you don't have that on command,

796
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 2: you're not doing your homework every single day. If you're

797
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: doing that before presentation, you're probably getting.

798
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: In your own way.

799
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: But when it comes to scripting that there's a point

800
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: where I completely disagree with that, and that's the first

801
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: five to ten minutes. What are you opening with? Because

802
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: if you can get yourself into a state aflow and

803
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: have your opening story, your takeaway points done, if you're

804
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: really there for the right reasons, after you're in a

805
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: state of flow, you're going to start losing awareness of yourself.

806
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: You're going to become more immersed into the room. And

807
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: that's why I learned because the first oh, man, I

808
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: think it was like an hour presentation. The first fifteen

809
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 2: minutes were I thought I was going to vomit in public.

810
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 2: I'm surprised I didn't. But as I started getting into

811
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, this is becoming.

812
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: More and more doable. So I don't think.

813
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:00,959
Speaker 2: I don't think it was it was particularly a really

814
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: great presentation, but I think it was. It was a

815
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: decent one. People said they got stuff out of it,

816
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: they enjoyed it, and that's great.

817
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: So I think I'm getting off topic.

818
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: Because I'm nice. My first presentation was Lacklustos.

819
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:18,240
Speaker 3: A group of eight people.

820
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: We spent like half a day and you know we

821
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 2: talked about selling personal training, which is great. That's cool.

822
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: Well it's uh, you did better than me, but everyone

823
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: everyone did better than me on.

824
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: Their first gig.

825
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: I think, hi, mate, we've got to wind it up

826
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: because I've got to chat with Dr Jody in seven

827
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: and a half minutes, Dr Jody Richardson. So tell people

828
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 1: how they can connect with you and listen to you

829
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: and potentially employ you.

830
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: You Kim, you can get a hold of me on

831
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: Robert Copuccio dot com, myself, ipantidote dot com.

832
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn. You can send me a message, say.

833
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: Hi, and thanks for listening. Thanks buddy.

834
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 3: There were some valuable takeways here.

835
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 2: It was good. I loved it. I love chatting to you.

836
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: I love the I love that I.

837
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: Don't have to prep I love that that's probably just

838
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: because I'm lazy, but I love that we always I know,

839
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: I don't really need to think too much because I

840
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: know I just need to ask a question and off

841
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: you go. And with some people that's a bad thing,

842
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 1: but with you, it's always a good thing.

843
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 3: So we'll say goodbye. Last thing.

844
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, going back to going back to the great Richard Boyd.

845
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: He said that at conferences, the most amount of value

846
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: is not in the sessions. It's lead at night, when

847
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: people have had a few drinks and they're too tired

848
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: to care, and they're sitting around a table in flow

849
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 2: talking about what they really think.

850
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I concur I've been in at a few

851
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: of those tables with you all mate, Well, say goodbye, fah,

852
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: but thanks.

853
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: Again, good a Craig, thanks for everything, Thanks buddy, thank you.

854
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: I'll let you prepare, okay, Yeah, I mean I think

855
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: I think that some value there conversation. Sorry to cut

856
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: you a bit short.

857
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm just I've just got back to back and I

858
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: probably need three minutes to go and get a.

859
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: Drink water, totally get it. So I'm gonna let I'm

860
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: gonna let you on, so your heads straight on.

861
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah all right mate, Thanks buddy, take care of have

862
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: a good inbay.

863
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 2: Love you, buddy,