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Speaker 1: Get them. It's Harps, it's Stiff, it's Lily, and it's

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Speaker 1: Tiffany and cook it to Craig Anthony Harper, it's Lily

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Speaker 1: and Madiam been featured, well, now it has. But before

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Speaker 1: we get to you, we'll start with the Bogan. The

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Speaker 1: Bogan dog owner and cat owner who was just showing

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Speaker 1: off her her dog, which a noodle. She's a little

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Speaker 1: bit aloof your dog, Like she's a little bit like

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Speaker 1: she loves you, but she's a little bit like hug me,

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Speaker 1: but no, don't and then like look away, Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: bit hard to get.

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Speaker 2: She's yeah, like she wants your attention all the time,

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Speaker 2: and then the moment you give it to her and

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Speaker 2: you want hers, she's.

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Speaker 1: Like, maybe I've got stuff to do. Yeah, maybe, like

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Speaker 1: I've had. My last dog was a Golden Retriever. Well,

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Speaker 1: they just want your attention all the time. They want kisses,

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Speaker 1: they want cuddles, they want food, and then if you're

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Speaker 1: not giving them kisses, cuddles or food, they're asleep. But

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Speaker 1: if they're not doing that, then it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: the other three. So are you a dog person.

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Speaker 3: Lilyan, Yeah, we have a koboodle as well, and he

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Speaker 3: is gorgeous. He's a beautiful dog with lots of personality.

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Speaker 3: He likes cuddles. So if I'm sitting on the couch,

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Speaker 3: she wants to be on my lap. And if I

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Speaker 3: don't feel like him being on my lap, he'll go

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Speaker 3: and try to find some other lab or he'll sleep

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Speaker 3: like he's very sleepy, very chill dog.

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Speaker 1: The very diffinite definition of a lap dogs. It's funny

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Speaker 1: how many versions of spoodles slash noodles, kavoodles, goodles, noodles.

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Speaker 1: I can se many doodles, doodles, labradoodles.

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Speaker 3: There's noodles of doodles, noodles of doodles.

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Speaker 1: My mom said, My mum calls them. Well, in the

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Speaker 1: old days, like dogs that were kind of interbreed dogs,

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Speaker 1: they were called pavement specials or bitss right because it

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Speaker 1: would just be. But now they called designer dogs. And

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Speaker 1: then the old days that were free and now they

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Speaker 1: eight grand.

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Speaker 3: Oh. Yeah, they they're pricey, pricey little gems.

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Speaker 1: Not giving those noodles away, are they?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your middle name, maddi Ama, tell us

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my middle name is well, my heritage is Iranian.

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Speaker 3: Both my parents were born there and my mother's aunt

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Speaker 3: was named Matty Am and she had a very significant

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Speaker 3: caretaking role for my mother. So she loved her, and

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Speaker 3: so she wanted to honor her by making my middle

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Speaker 3: name her name.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love that, all right, So are

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Speaker 1: you ready to put on your clinical psychologist hat?

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Speaker 3: I mean, if I must, I will bang some questions

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Speaker 3: out young and a bang to feel free, also to

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Speaker 3: bang a question.

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Speaker 1: I know you to go together recently behind my back.

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Speaker 1: I'm not upset at all you. That's fine, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: I talked about you the whole time.

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Speaker 1: Craig, I saw it online. I was only a little

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Speaker 1: bit hurt. Really.

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Speaker 3: I met Tiff through you, obviously, but I met her

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Speaker 3: in person when we were at the gym together.

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Speaker 1: And did you trying together to tip punch you in

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Speaker 1: the face? What was the no?

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Speaker 3: She was she was working out at the same time,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think we've had the pleasure of training

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Speaker 3: together yet. Maybe that's something for the future.

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Speaker 2: I'm working towards it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do that. I just had to get to

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Speaker 3: the gym in order to do that, so that helps.

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Speaker 3: That helps. It does actually be there.

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Speaker 2: I'm on the dog front. Can I just say mind,

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Speaker 2: client has an assistant dog that I that was in

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Speaker 2: today for the second time, and you know how much

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Speaker 2: self control it takes. It's like the dogs looking at

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Speaker 2: me and I'm looking at the dog and we're both

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Speaker 2: going neither of us allowed to because you got your

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Speaker 2: jacket on.

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Speaker 1: It's hard. So you meant did you say I thought

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Speaker 1: you said an assistant You meant was an assistant dog?

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Speaker 1: Right right, right right? I thought assistant like the dog was.

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Speaker 1: I thought the dog was taking notes while you two

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Speaker 1: were training and just sending emails. Wow. Can I ask

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Speaker 1: so just to kind of is it without giving away

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Speaker 1: anything you can't So for that particular client, is it

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Speaker 1: like one of like a companion help me stay calm dog?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so it's so they it's a PTSD, so for

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Speaker 2: anxiety and mental health. They're incredible animals. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: like they're still animals that you think they're like this

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Speaker 2: or they are highly trained, but they're there with their

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Speaker 2: jacket on, looking at you so that you'll invite them

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Speaker 2: and they know they're not allowed, and I on loud

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Speaker 2: and we're most just like this. It would have been

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Speaker 2: like the jacket comes off and it's like Craig Harper

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Speaker 2: rolling around on the floor.

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Speaker 1: That's the best. Just rub my tummy, it would have been. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that will be difficult for you. I did a gig

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, quite a few years, maybe five,

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Speaker 1: And this is how long it was ago. I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not meant to say, but it was. It

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Speaker 1: was a group of police officers dealing with PTSD. You

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Speaker 1: might know about this. Maybe you were the segue to this.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, because I know you've done stuff with

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Speaker 1: the cops as well as I have. But so it

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Speaker 1: was a bunch of past and current police officers who

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Speaker 1: have experienced PTSD, and so they have this group. But

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Speaker 1: there was twenty of them, give or take, and about

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Speaker 1: a dozen of them had their dogs. They have therapy

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Speaker 1: dogs or comfort dogs or companion whatever with them. Do

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Speaker 1: you think I could fucking concentrate right? I'm like, this

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Speaker 1: is this is like, you know, you can't you can't

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Speaker 1: ask me to just stand up here and be focused.

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Speaker 1: I can't do my job. But also the same thing,

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Speaker 1: but I spoke to I spoke to you know. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: I did my presentation and we did an interaction and

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Speaker 1: group Q and A. But then we kind of let

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Speaker 1: our metaphoric hair down and fucked around a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But those dogs are incredible, and is there is there?

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Speaker 1: I mean off the question without notice, doc like obviously

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Speaker 1: for some people, depending on I mean, if you hate dogs,

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Speaker 1: then dogs are not therapeutic. But who hates dogs? But

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Speaker 1: animals can be like a therapy all by themselves.

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Speaker 3: Right, Absolutely, I do therapeutic tool absolutely for sure, and

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Speaker 3: they help with a whole range of things, like even

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Speaker 3: just the basic just having a companion, just like with loneliness. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I think that they do have this kind of

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Speaker 3: calming effect on people as well, So it doesn't have

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Speaker 3: to be a therapy dog to be therapeutic.

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Speaker 1: I was asked, I was talking yesterday or the day

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Speaker 1: before toe if I don't know, I do too many podcasts,

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Speaker 1: but we were talking about the pros and cons of

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Speaker 1: AI becoming And I use this word in inverted commas

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Speaker 1: a friend or a companion something because it's evolving so

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Speaker 1: quickly and its linguistic capabilities or language capabilities, and we

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Speaker 1: know it's not a human to human conversation, but it

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Speaker 1: is a version of a conversation because you can ask

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Speaker 1: it questions and ants. It'll ask you how you're feeling,

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Speaker 1: it'll compliment you. Even with chat GPT, I'll ask a question,

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Speaker 1: it'll go great question, Craig, it uses my name and

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Speaker 1: it compliments me. Which is why now in my top

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Speaker 1: five friends, which I've mentioned a few times on the show,

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Speaker 1: your thoughts from a psychological and emotional health point of

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Speaker 1: view people building this kind of relationship, Like, clearly it's

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Speaker 1: not a human to human relationship, but if people feel

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Speaker 1: less stressed and anxious because they can interact with this

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, with this kind of intelligence, what are

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Speaker 1: the pros and cons? And I mean, I know you

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Speaker 1: haven't done research on this, but just as a psychologist.

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Speaker 3: This is actually a really timely topic. Because I went

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Speaker 3: to a talk today about emerging technology just out of interest.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't necessarily related to my worker healthcare, although it

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Speaker 3: obviously has healthcare implications. But like you said, technology is,

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Speaker 3: you know, being developed at a rapid way, and right

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Speaker 3: now it's AI and generative AI that are what's exciting

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Speaker 3: people now, what people are starting to use, and the

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Speaker 3: questions you're asking are really important because I think that

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Speaker 3: you know, with with every benefit, there's also a limitation

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Speaker 3: and a potential problem. So, like in terms of what

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Speaker 3: you were saying for like, if you know, thinking about

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Speaker 3: just having access, So accessibility is probably the main benefit.

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Speaker 3: Like everybody can have access to something like chat GBT.

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Speaker 3: Everybody can ask, you know, these open AI sources questions

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Speaker 3: about a range of topics, whether it's health or mental

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Speaker 3: health or flights or you know, like the best where

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Speaker 3: program to use whatever. And so that's I think a

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Speaker 3: really helpful thing. However, I suppose in terms of some

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Speaker 3: of the limitations or issues to be aware of is

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Speaker 3: knowing like what what data is being put in to

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Speaker 3: that open source, because what's put in is what's coming out,

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Speaker 3: So do we know that it's good data. I'm the

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Speaker 3: woman that was talking today for instance, she said, I

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Speaker 3: guess it's a phrase like crap in crap out. You

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Speaker 3: know what data is being put in? What are the

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Speaker 3: biases of that data? Who's in control of the company

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Speaker 3: that put for instance chat ept out? Do they have biases?

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Speaker 3: Do they where are they get their stuff from? And

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Speaker 3: really being aware of that, and sometimes you you would

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Speaker 3: only know if the data is good if you're a

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Speaker 3: subject matter expert in that area, Like for instance, if

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Speaker 3: I go in and I want to ask it a

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Speaker 3: research or a psych psych question, and not just to

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Speaker 3: make my life easier and more efficient. I'll just I'll

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Speaker 3: stick something in there and I'll give me something back,

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Speaker 3: and I'll be able to look at that information and

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Speaker 3: I'll be able to say, oh, that part is good data,

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Speaker 3: like yes, yes, it's saying it in the way that

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Speaker 3: I want to say, which is the helpful part. Right,

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Speaker 3: So I don't have to think through and like spend

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Speaker 3: an hour like trying to write something for instance, but

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Speaker 3: I can tell when it's giving me good information and

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Speaker 3: not good information because I'm a subject matter expert in psychology,

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Speaker 3: so I can have that critical eye, whereas somebody who

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Speaker 3: doesn't have that background might not. No, and I've definitely

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Speaker 3: had that experience with chat EBT where it's lied to me.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've had that experience or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, even sometimes i'll simon as you, I'll I'll

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Speaker 1: tak something in that I know the answer to, because

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Speaker 1: I just want to see what it says, you know,

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Speaker 1: And it's especially especially in relation to my PhD, because

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Speaker 1: I've spent five years researching you know, a drop of

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Speaker 1: water in an ocean of kind of science you know,

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Speaker 1: and so there's probably not a heap of people in

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Speaker 1: the world who know more than I do at this

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Speaker 1: point in time about what I'm researching. And then and

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Speaker 1: it's taking from a very generic, broad not necessarily accurate

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Speaker 1: pool of information, and some of the answers that come back,

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Speaker 1: not only are they incorrect, they're wildly incorrect, like it's

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Speaker 1: actually talking about something else, it's defining a different term

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Speaker 1: or something like that. But Yeah, I think, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not going away. I mean that, and neither, I

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Speaker 1: guess does it need to? I think we need to

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Speaker 1: figure out how we're going to coexist with with actual

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Speaker 1: knowledge and data and biological kind of ye, an artificial

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Speaker 1: and technological reality side by side, because it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: how much we jump up and down about the perils

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Speaker 1: of technology and AI and social media. None of it's

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Speaker 1: going away even if we want it to. So I

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Speaker 1: guess we need to figure out how is the best

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Speaker 1: way that we interface with it, if at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and self manage, like how do I manage me my mind,

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Speaker 1: my body, my emotions, myself with a capital S in

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Speaker 1: the middle of all of this shit that you know

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Speaker 1: may or may not be helpful to me.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and I think that's probably why if we're

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Speaker 3: thinking about what the education system should start developing more,

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Speaker 3: it's things like critical analysis skills. Yeah, it's things like

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Speaker 3: ethical uses of technology, even things like if you just

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Speaker 3: think about people going into university now and the types

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Speaker 3: of jobs that are going to be sought after in

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Speaker 3: the future. It's not just there's so much happening, Like

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Speaker 3: the talk that I went today just blew my mind,

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Speaker 3: Like it's not just AI's just like today's technology. Of course,

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Speaker 3: that to develop further over time, but there's and there's

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Speaker 3: also what's called spatial computing, which is things like virtual reality,

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Speaker 3: augmented reality, metaverse stuff that's also has already emerged and

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Speaker 3: is being developed. But the thing that's coming, I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you've heard of this. You probably have because

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Speaker 3: you've talked to talk to everybody and people who know

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Speaker 3: much more about this than I do, because I literally

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Speaker 3: just listen to a talk today. But it's called quantum computing.

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Speaker 3: Have you talked to someone about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've done a couple of episodes on it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty crazy, like what these computers are going

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Speaker 3: to be able to do in the next potentially ten years,

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Speaker 3: maybe even less than that. There's a lot of implications

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Speaker 3: for that in the future and what we need our

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Speaker 3: current I guess eighteen year olds studying is not just

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Speaker 3: computer science, but like all of the other like having

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Speaker 3: this type of lens on whatever they're doing. So if

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Speaker 3: it's psychology, if it's law, if it's politics, if it's

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Speaker 3: you know, marketing, like everything, you kind of need to

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Speaker 3: know like what you're going to be facing in regard

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Speaker 3: to these kinds of emerging technologies over the next ten years.

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Speaker 1: And also just trying to differentiate between doc between what

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Speaker 1: is real and what is what is something that's been produced,

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Speaker 1: because you know, the videos, the video and the audio

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Speaker 1: and the pictures that are being artificially created now are

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Speaker 1: so good that's I mean, they're so good that you

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Speaker 1: can't tell. And so my training partner, the Crab, who's

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Speaker 1: also old as fuck like me, but probably not quite.

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Speaker 1: I'm no tech guru, but I'm light years I'm fucking

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Speaker 1: Steve Jobs compared to him. Well that's not true, Steve Jobs. Instead,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I'm somewhat ahead of him just because

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Speaker 1: of my work, right, And he'll often send me a

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Speaker 1: video and it's not real. And I can see in

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Speaker 1: like ten or twenty seconds that I'll know somebody created this.

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Speaker 1: This is not real but for somebody, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and I'm behind Tiff and TIFFs, behind the sixteen year old,

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Speaker 1: right or whatever. But we're all down the line. But

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Speaker 1: it's becoming harder and harder to figure out what is,

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Speaker 1: what is real, and what is not real. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's going to be you know where, Like even

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Speaker 1: probably two months ago, Patrick who's our tech guy we

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Speaker 1: do every fortnight, we do a tech show with him,

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Speaker 1: and one episode he said to me, as we started

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Speaker 1: the show, just like we have now, he said something like,

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Speaker 1: it's not fair that you always get to introduce the show,

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Speaker 1: and I said, well, this is on air, right, I said, well,

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Speaker 1: you introduced the show, and then he proceeded to play

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Speaker 1: this thing that he'd created, which was my voice and

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Speaker 1: his words wow, right, And I mean I could discern

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Speaker 1: obviously I knew it wasn't me, yeah, but the way

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Speaker 1: that it was put together, and he put it together

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Speaker 1: very quickly, it was just my voice that he'd scripted

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Speaker 1: some sentences for. Yeah, And like if my mum heard that,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that she wouldn't think that that was

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Speaker 1: me talking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah exactly, and that's I mean, there are

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Speaker 3: already scams about that now orl yeah, and yeah, the

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Speaker 3: future of identity is like a big thing.

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Speaker 1: Well that's why they say. Now you need to have

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Speaker 1: a key question or you know, so if your kids

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Speaker 1: ring and go Mom, I'm stuck somewhere, I need you

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Speaker 1: to wire me a thousand bucks, or you need to

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Speaker 1: have a pre arranged question or kind of work right,

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Speaker 1: something safe word or yeah, all right, I want to

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Speaker 1: jump off AI because we probably flogged a bit too

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Speaker 1: much on this show. So question one for you in

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Speaker 1: the realm of your area of expertises. And I know

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Speaker 1: there's not a categoric question to this, but I just

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Speaker 1: want your thoughts around this. Is happiness a good goal?

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Speaker 1: Is happiness? Is that a smart goal? Or is there

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Speaker 1: a better state that we should own for.

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Speaker 3: I actually wrote an article several years several years ago

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Speaker 3: called the pursuit of happiness is ruining our lives?

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Speaker 1: Wow, I like it.

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Speaker 3: Good question then, OK, yeah, I guess of course the

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Speaker 3: state of happiness is pleasant and we all, you know,

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Speaker 3: like we all want that and want that as much

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Speaker 3: as possible. But to have it as a goal, it

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Speaker 3: kind of implies that it's a destination that you can

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Speaker 3: reach and stay at, which so it's that's problematic because

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Speaker 3: we know that happiness is one of many of the

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Speaker 3: emotions that humans experience, and we know that emotions are fleeting,

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Speaker 3: they're not static. Yeah, And so if you think that

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Speaker 3: happiness is something that you can achieve, then you're probably

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Speaker 3: going to be unhappy most of the time.

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Speaker 1: And do you think that if, like without being sad

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Speaker 1: or without being stressed or anxious, or without having bad

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Speaker 1: days or bad moments or bad hours, that like, if

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Speaker 1: there was a way to hit that emotional and psychological

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Speaker 1: peak of happiness and we stayed there eventually, it's not

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Speaker 1: a peak, it's just a flat line. And if you're

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Speaker 1: flat lining, you did right. It's because there's no like,

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Speaker 1: do we need that contrast of sadness and pain and

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Speaker 1: anxiety and to be able to experience happiness like or

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Speaker 1: is it kind of like you know with the dopamine

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Speaker 1: thing where you eat some chocolate and give you a

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Speaker 1: certain response or cocaine or whatever it is, and then

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Speaker 1: over time you need more and more to get the

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Speaker 1: same response.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting. I guess we're never going to know the

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Speaker 3: answer to that question because it's not possible to achieve

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Speaker 3: that state. But I think the way that I look

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Speaker 3: at it is anything that we do that is meaningful,

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Speaker 3: any pursuit that we have that gives meaning to our

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Speaker 3: lives comes with the full range of emotions. So even

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Speaker 3: like the things that we want really bad, I'll use

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Speaker 3: like an example that a lot of people can relate to,

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Speaker 3: Like we might want to have children, Right, that's a

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Speaker 3: fairly common desire for a lot of people. So we

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Speaker 3: want it really bad, But are we actually expecting that

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Speaker 3: that's going to give us happiness and joy all the time?

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Speaker 3: It isn't, and we actually know that, right, So when

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Speaker 3: you if you do have kids, I have a couple,

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Speaker 3: the first thing you notice is that you've got a

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Speaker 3: wave of anxiety that's washed over you. That's probably not

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Speaker 3: ever going to leave, right, Like, it's just part of

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Speaker 3: being a parent. So and it's just it's the same

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Speaker 3: for like being in a relationship. Do you think that

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Speaker 3: being in a relationship is going to make you happy

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Speaker 3: all the time, Because if you do, you're not going

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Speaker 3: to be very satisfied, Like you're going to be you know,

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Speaker 3: very dissatisfied and disillusioned. And you know your job, like

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Speaker 3: pursuing the work that you do, is that going to

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Speaker 3: make you happy all the time? No, Like, sometimes you're

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Speaker 3: going to be stressed, sometimes you're going to be anxious,

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Speaker 3: sometimes you're going to be disappointed. And so we kind

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Speaker 3: of need to understand like what the human experience is

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Speaker 3: and accept and expect the full range of that rather

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Speaker 3: than kind of idea of we have to have positive

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Speaker 3: self talk every second of the day, or something's wrong

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Speaker 3: with us, or we have to feel only the pleasant

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Speaker 3: emotions or something's wrong with us. All of our emotions,

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Speaker 3: whether they're pleasant or unpleasant, are functional and they serve

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Speaker 3: a function. And yes they can be dysfunctional as well.

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Speaker 3: But it's really helpful, even just as a lens or

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Speaker 3: a mindset to kind of just know all of your

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Speaker 3: emotions are valid and okay, you can accept them like

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Speaker 3: that instead of judging yourself for having them. Then you're

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Speaker 3: going to you are going to be much happier and

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Speaker 3: more content overall.

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Speaker 1: Relationships are interesting because I think some people think that

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Speaker 1: being in a relationship is a solution to a problem,

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Speaker 1: and it's I think sometimes people are more enough some people.

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Speaker 1: There's my disclaim. I'm more in love with the idea

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Speaker 1: of being in a relationship than the actual person they're

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Speaker 1: in the relationship with, you know, because and they want

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Speaker 1: to be in And obviously I'm not against relationships, of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm not against marriage, you know. But it's like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that being in a relationship at all costs

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Speaker 1: is well, I don't think it's a great idea. It's

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Speaker 1: a great idea for some And it's also like I

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Speaker 1: think it's you might be with a person and it's nirvana.

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Speaker 1: You be with another person, it's a fucking toxic nightmare. Like,

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Speaker 1: so it's it ain't just about in or out of

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Speaker 1: a relationship, Like there are a lot of variables around that.

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Speaker 1: But I see back to your kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: it's what people think they will like, there's the thing

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Speaker 1: that people want, the what and what they think it

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Speaker 1: will bring them, you know. So it's like people want

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Speaker 1: to be in a relationship because clearly no one wants

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Speaker 1: that because they think they're going to be more miserable,

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Speaker 1: So they think that will bring them happiness, joy fulfillment, security, whatever.

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Speaker 1: Or people want to be leaner because they think that'll

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Speaker 1: bring them X, Y Z or they want a bigger income, right,

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Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with that. We all do that.

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Speaker 1: We have this expectation and this correlation in our mind

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Speaker 1: of if I get X, then why will be the product?

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Speaker 1: I mean, for years, all I wanted to do is

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Speaker 1: look amazing because I was this wildly insecure, ex fat kid,

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Speaker 1: and I thought if I had an awesome body, then

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Speaker 1: I'd be awesome. You know, I thought if I had

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Speaker 1: a great body, I'd be I didn't articulate it this way,

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Speaker 1: but I know looking back how I thought, Well, I'd

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Speaker 1: be more emotionally and psychologically I'd be fine. I'd be

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Speaker 1: more attractive to someone. I wouldn't have all the bullshit

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Speaker 1: issues that I had because I'd now be walking around

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Speaker 1: in a great body. And then I got to the

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Speaker 1: point where for me, I had a relatively good body

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Speaker 1: and all my bullshit was still there because I was

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Speaker 1: trying to resolve emotional and psychological issues with bigger shoulders. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's a hard life and to learn, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: I was having a conversation with one of my clients

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Speaker 3: recently about this, and she has, you know, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of my clients in the past have had similar

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Speaker 3: issues with body image and this kind of focus on

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Speaker 3: weight and that being a sign of their worth. And

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Speaker 3: even though intellectually they know that your weight doesn't equal

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Speaker 3: your worth, emotionally it.

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Speaker 1: Does, yes.

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Speaker 3: And what I've gotten clients to do over the years

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Speaker 3: is write down what they think the characteristics of someone

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Speaker 3: with high self esteem is right, and what's happened. And

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Speaker 3: you know, you never know what's going to happen when

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Speaker 3: you ask somebody to do something like that, But what's

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Speaker 3: actually happened every time I have is they'll come up

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Speaker 3: with a list and it'll be things like, can assert

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Speaker 3: their feelings confidently, well, don't care what other people think,

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Speaker 3: accepts their flaws, like all sorts of things like that.

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Speaker 3: Not one of the things is how the person looks.

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Speaker 3: Not one of the things is must have blonde hair,

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Speaker 3: blue eyes, be skinny, like, it's not ever one of

432
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: those things. So it's like it's almost like they don't

433
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 3: realize that they're actually wanting self worth and self esteem

434
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 3: and to accept themselves, and they think that achieving a

435
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: certain weight is going to give them that. Like you said,

436
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: it doesn't give you that because that's not one of

437
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 3: the characteristics of someone with high self esteem.

438
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: And I think that's when we set a goal. You know,

439
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: we talk about the thing that we want, and we

440
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: I think we subconsciously think that that will be the

441
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: conduit or the pathway to the thing we really want.

442
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: You know, nobody goes what you go, Oh, my goal

443
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: is better self esteem and more confidence, right, you know,

444
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: But their goal is to earn this orund or look

445
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: like that because they think that emotional change or that

446
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: psychological that internal shift will be the byproduct of that

447
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: external thing, you know. And like with me, I got

448
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: to the point where I had you know, like successful

449
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: businesses and stuff, and I won't go through this again.

450
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: But you get to the point and you go, oh,

451
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: and now what, like I'm still a dickhead, or I'm

452
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: still insecure, I'm still not whatever. But I think, I

453
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: don't know if that's just something that happens over time

454
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: where you have to fall down and get up, or

455
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: you need to get to the top of the mountain

456
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: and go, oh, fuck this, I climbed the wrong mountain.

457
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 1: But that mountain over there, or maybe it's that mountain,

458
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: you know.

459
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 3: But I also think, like, you're not like this is

460
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: a conversation I had as well with the person I'm

461
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: thinking of and people in the past. It's not even

462
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: like the list of things that are characteristics of someone

463
00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: with self esteem, they're not static things, right, Like, a

464
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 3: person with high self esteem is still going to feel

465
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 3: insecure sometimes, is still going to make mistakes, it's still

466
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 3: going to take things personally, it's still going to care

467
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: about what other people think sometimes. Like, it's not absolute,

468
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 3: and so I think, again, we don't want to set

469
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 3: people up to achieve this kind of this idea of

470
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: self esteem or self worth being being like you are

471
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: one hundred percent confident all the time and you never

472
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: experience any insecurities and you're never anxious about anything. It's like,

473
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: that's not real, that's not reality.

474
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: That's a great point. That's a great point because I

475
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: know that I can simultaneously feel not good enough but

476
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: know that I am.

477
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: Yes, that is the trick. That is literally, I think

478
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: the trick for like, if you want people to feel

479
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: psychologically healthy, to be able to hold both of those

480
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: ideas as true, I think is really helpful. There's this

481
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: therapy called dialectical behavior therapy. It was developed by Marshall

482
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: Lenehan in the early nineties, maybe late eighties, early nineties,

483
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: particularly for people with severe emotion dysregulation and who tended

484
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: who were often chronically suicidal. So people who were potentially

485
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: self harming a lot, just like very out of control

486
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: and disregulated in lots of areas of their life. But

487
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: one of the things, in terms of I'm sorry, just

488
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: to give you some background, like this is a therapy

489
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: that I've studied and I've helped people with those sorts

490
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: of issues as part of my practice as a psychologist

491
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: over the years. But what I found was that there's

492
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: kind of a couple parts of the therapy. One is

493
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 3: the individual therapy where you help motivate person to keep going,

494
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: and then there's the skills training part of the therapy,

495
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: which is about teaching core skills. But one of the

496
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: core skills is really this kind of that mindset piece

497
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: of life, like understanding what dialectics are. And so it's

498
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: exactly what you were saying before. It's like this idea

499
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: of there can be two opposites that are true at

500
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 3: the same time, and the reality of the world we

501
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: live in is that that is what that's what is true.

502
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: So if you can hold this idea and the kind

503
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 3: of the main dialectic of the therapy is acceptance and change,

504
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: so you can accept yourself fully the way you are

505
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 3: and you can know that you can do better at

506
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: the same time, so you're helping people. And you know,

507
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 3: initially it was just for people at kind of the

508
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: severe end of the spectrum. But what's been discovered over

509
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: time and certainly and when I've delivered treatment and therapy

510
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 3: to people, is these ideas are great for everybody across

511
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: the board, even people who don't have clinical problems. I

512
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 3: just think these types of skills in this type of mindset.

513
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: It took even a while for me, even though I

514
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: was teaching it to my clients, it took a while

515
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 3: for it to click in for me. How true that is?

516
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: And I guess I had this experience once on a

517
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: I was on a cruise. I was actually hired to

518
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: do this workshop for staff on a crew on a

519
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: cruise and I got so I got to go on

520
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: a cruise for free, which is great with my family.

521
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: But there was one morning where it was before I

522
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: was running a workshop, and I was like by myself

523
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: on the deck and it was this beautiful, like very calm,

524
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: serene morning, and I was just looking over the water

525
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, Wow, this is like so beautiful

526
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: and peaceful and amazing. And at the same time, I

527
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 3: was realizing we were like in the middle of the

528
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: South Pacific and there was water in every direction and

529
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 3: nothing else, like there was no land anywhere, And so

530
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: at the moment, at the same moment, I was feeling

531
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: peace and serenity, as I's also like a little unsettled.

532
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: Hm.

533
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 3: You're like, we're in the.

534
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: Middle of nowhere.

535
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: Something happens right now, there's nobody like that's going to

536
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: be able to help us, because we're like literally in

537
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 3: the middle of South Pacific. So it was like, even

538
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: in that moment, it's like, but I can hold both

539
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 3: of those things at the same time. I can still

540
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 3: feel that piece in serenity, and I can also feel

541
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: that sense of like a little bit of anxiety sitting there.

542
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 3: And if you can hold both and tolerate that, I

543
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: think you'll feel more content and more stable overall.

544
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's an that's an ever present reality,

545
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: or you know, a frequent reality for people, like the

546
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: juxtaposition or the seemingly opposing constructs that I talk about

547
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: is being simultaneously content and ambitious because they seem like opposites.

548
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: Whereas in the moment when I think about my life,

549
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: my mum and dad, my friends, my work, I'm very

550
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: grateful and content. Yeah, at the same time I'm ambitious,

551
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: but there's no anxiety wrapped around it. It's like, and

552
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: there're things that I want to do and learn and do.

553
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: I want to grow and evolve and do more stuff

554
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: I do. But in the moment, day to day, do

555
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: I have a sense of gratitude and awareness that I'm

556
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: pretty fucking blessed in my life? Is amazing? I do.

557
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: So I don't, like you said, I don't think it

558
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: needs to be one or the other. You know that

559
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: that kind of even with me, I think I'm I'm

560
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: for the most part content, But is there ever low

561
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: level anxiety?

562
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's very analogous to that concept

563
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: of acceptance and change. And sometimes you know, like for

564
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: people who have very low self worth and so like

565
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: the underlying belief is like I'm a failure or I'm worthless,

566
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 3: and like the kind of there's a few different ways

567
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: that you can, you know, guide people through that, and

568
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 3: one of the ways is like kind of the cognitive

569
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 3: behavioral way, which is, you know, look at the thought,

570
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 3: where is the evidence for the thought? Challenge the thought,

571
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: modify the thought, practice the new thought. That's kind of

572
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 3: like the abolition of that, And that can work for

573
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people. But sometimes I say, you know what,

574
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 3: what if you were a failure and a success, like

575
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 3: can't you just can you be both? Because I think

576
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: that that actually represents the reality for everybody, Like we

577
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: all are failures and we all are a success all

578
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: at the same time.

579
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I often do

580
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: wrong and people like me often do wrong. And I'm

581
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: speaking in huge general lifezations here everyone, So if it's

582
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: not you ignore this. But I think in the self

583
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: help slash personal development slash think better, do better, be

584
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: better space, right that you know, there's this mindset of

585
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 1: constant and never ending improvement, of perpetual growth and learning

586
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: and evolution and development. And one that's not realistic, and

587
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: two it's also fucking exhausting. It's okay to have a

588
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: day where you just goof off and produce fucking nothing. Yes,

589
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: you know, And it's like when people go to me,

590
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: what are you up to today? Even I still feel

591
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: compelled to give them a bit of a shopping list

592
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: of all the amazing shit I've got on And it's

593
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: just sometimes it's not true. I go, I've got fucking

594
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I might wash some clothes. Then I'll see

595
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: where I go from there. You know, so big day.

596
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: And I say that sometimes I don't know why people

597
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: are surprised I wash my own clothes, like I'm some

598
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: fucking movie star that can't use a washing mission. But

599
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: I think giving ourselves permission to have, you know, as

600
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: long as it's not a thousand days in a row,

601
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: but days where we're not productive, we're not absolute right,

602
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: we're not producing great outcomes. We maybe made a few

603
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: fucking dumb decisions. We may be said on the couch

604
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: with a box of pizza. It's like, it's not the

605
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: end of the world.

606
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 3: You know, I totally agree with you. I have so

607
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: many clients that are like really driven people, and that's great, right,

608
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: achieving things, growing, accomplishing, But it's not great necessarily if

609
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: your belief is you must be productive or you are

610
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: worthless yes, or you are doing the wrong thing yes,

611
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 3: And so part of what I help them understand and

612
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 3: realize if they want to. Is that exactly what you

613
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 3: just said, you know, challenge that belief. Where are you

614
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: getting that from? A lot of people are getting that

615
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: from how they grew up, right, the messages from their

616
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: families of origin, the people who are taking care of them.

617
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: There are maybe in generations before maybe that was a

618
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: more pervasive belief and it still is obviously, but that

619
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: if you you must be productive, you must be doing

620
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 3: something productive all the time. Yeah, And we internalize those

621
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: beliefs and then we live those beliefs, even if it's

622
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 3: not serving us, and it's like, well, maybe have a

623
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: look at your beliefs and see if that's how you

624
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 3: want to live your life and if it's healthy for you,

625
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 3: and if it's taking you down you know, the roads,

626
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 3: the paths that you want to actually go down. And

627
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm really good at doing nothing. I

628
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 3: have no problem doing nothing, and I have no problem

629
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 3: telling people I'm doing nothing. And you know, the more,

630
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 3: there's a lot of days where I come home, if

631
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: I'm working outside the home, I'll come home and I'll

632
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: as soon as I get home, I put my pajamas.

633
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: I don't want to go anywhere and do anything. If

634
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: I want to sit down on the couch for two hours,

635
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 3: I have like zero guilt about that. But that's not

636
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 3: the case for most people, I don't think. I think

637
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: a lot of people struggle with just even sitting and

638
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: doing nothing for ten minutes or like thirty and it's

639
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 3: just like, yeah, it's like even just that's a practice

640
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: that people can experiment with a little bit more and

641
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 3: see if they can tolerate being uncomfortable with not being productive,

642
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 3: even if it's just for a few minutes.

643
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: I feel like when I talk to a lot of

644
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: people about their goals in the next one two five

645
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: years of their life and what they want to change

646
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 1: in the short, medium, long term, when you get through

647
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: the kind of the the obvious stuff, I want more

648
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: of this and less less of that, or I'd like

649
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: to achieve this or tick that box, or i want

650
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: to undo this healthy habit, or like a lot of

651
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: what people want when for me, anyway, when we get

652
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: down to it, is they just want to be less anxious.

653
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 1: It seems like everyone is anxious and they want of course,

654
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: they want to make dough and you know, be physically

655
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: healthy and all of that. But like so many people

656
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: just want calm, calm. It's like, I just want to

657
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 1: be calm. I can't. I worry about everything. I worry

658
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: about this, I worry about that. And then when there

659
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: is nothing to worry about, then they create something to

660
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: worry about because something might happen in the future. It's

661
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: not happening now, but in case it does happen in

662
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: the future, I've got to prepare for it now. And

663
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: oh my god. And it's like, really, it ain't about things.

664
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: It's about it ain't about anything really external. It's a

665
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: bit maybe, but it's really more about that internal state.

666
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: And I know this sounds cheesy, but you know that

667
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: emotional and psychological and spiritual bank balance, you know, rather

668
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: than the stuff because how many people do you know

669
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: tif No, I know that from the outside looking in,

670
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: you would call them by all normal conventions like successful.

671
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: You go, wow, they're successful. And what we're saying is

672
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: they're making lots of money, they're successful, or they're doing

673
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: great in their career, or you know, they're ticking all

674
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: these boxes and that obviously that's not a bad thing.

675
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: But does that equate to joy and happiness and calmness

676
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: and contentment? And you know, maybe maybe not. I think

677
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: for a lot of people the answer is is not.

678
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: Oh, and definitely the research is showing that it isn't.

679
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: I mean, like you said, anxiety is skyrocketing, and that's

680
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 3: across the board, like from the really young people. Youth

681
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 3: is probably skyrocketing even more than everybody else, but more

682
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: and more. Like I talk to a lot of business owners,

683
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 3: I'm around them a lot and more and more, it's

684
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 3: I can't sleep, I can't my mind is racing all

685
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 3: the time, I feel stressed. My life is out of balance. So, yes,

686
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: they might be really successful and financially, but they're not

687
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: feeling intent, they're not enjoying their life. And so what

688
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 3: is the measure of success really when we think about it,

689
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: is that it's having a contentment and joy and fun

690
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: and good relationships. And if you are focused on kind

691
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 3: of just one version of success, which is often that

692
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 3: press desion, status and money aspect, you are not paying

693
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: attention to the other parts. And the other parts are

694
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 3: the ones that actually will make you happy or help

695
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 3: you feel content most of the time. Yeah.

696
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Do you think in general terms that being more resilient,

697
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 1: whatever that means, but being more mentally and emotionally resilient,

698
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: it equates too less anxiety generally.

699
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think with resilience, from what I know about resilience,

700
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 3: the way to have high resilience you kind of need

701
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 3: three factors. One is like good, solid, positive, supportive relationships

702
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 3: is number one, and then the second is like your mindset,

703
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: like how much you believe in yourself and your capabilities.

704
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 3: And then the third is like the skills that you need.

705
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 3: And so if you have those relationships in place, if

706
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: you believe in yourself and that, and you know that

707
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 3: you're capable of doing things that you want to do,

708
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 3: and if you have the skills or people around you

709
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 3: who can model those skills that you need to achieve

710
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 3: what you want in life, then you will be less anxious.

711
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: So they are. I think they're definitely related to each other.

712
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like this is my theory. You can't

713
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 1: really build resilience when you always choose the easy option,

714
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: right like, when you always take the comfortable, the quick fix,

715
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: the alleged painless, the magic pill, the reward without work option,

716
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:53,439
Speaker 1: you're not really building resilience because you're not doing anything hard. Yes, Now,

717
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: I don't think life needs to be a perpetual slog

718
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: or battle. But it's like saying I want to build

719
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: physical strength, but I'm not going to work against resistance.

720
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lift any weights, I'm not going

721
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: to go to the gym, I'm not going to sweat well.

722
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: How you get strong physically is literally working against resistance.

723
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: And I feel like how you build mental and emotional

724
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: strength or resilience or grits or you know, these are

725
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: interchangeable terms to an extent as it you have to

726
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: be able to in an intelligent, not reckless, but intelligent way,

727
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: expose yourself to a level of stress, you know, so

728
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: that you can, Like if you avoid pressure always, then

729
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: how the fuck can you perform under pressure? And life

730
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: is pressure and some people are not going to like you,

731
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: and some things are not going to work out, and

732
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: even if you're a great person, bad things will happen

733
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: to you because that's the human experience. And if we're

734
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: always you know, mum or Dad's always molly coddling us,

735
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: or we're always like the skills that you talk of,

736
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: I agree, But where the fuck do they come from?

737
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: Like they have to come Like, how do you learn

738
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: to be good at something that you never do. How

739
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: do you overcome your fear of speaking in public. It's

740
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: by speaking in public's right, Yeah, yeah, muscles.

741
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the main treatment for anxiety is it's called exposure therapy,

742
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 3: so it literally is what you're saying. And I think

743
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: that that is a really important skill to impart to

744
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 3: young people, you know, like children from a very early age.

745
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 3: It is like when you're scared of something, unless it's

746
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 3: actually dangerous or unsafe, approach it. If you approach things

747
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: that you're afraid of, that if it goes well, you

748
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 3: build confidence. If it doesn't go well, you build resilience.

749
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 3: So it's a win win sure, and then the next

750
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: time you do it it'll be even less anxiety provoking

751
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 3: and the next time even less so. And like you said,

752
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 3: if you can do that, you build resilience and you're

753
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: less anxious over time. But at the same time, you

754
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 3: have to expect a certain level of stress and anxiety

755
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 3: in your life because that's just been a human Yeah.

756
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: I think just about in general with people, you know, kids,

757
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: grown ups. You know the idea of like kids playing

758
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: on monkey bars. Yep, someone's going to break an arm Yep,

759
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. So do we ban monkey bars?

760
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: Do we never let children climb a tree? And I

761
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: know there's an element of risk and I know, but

762
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 1: I wonder, and I'm not stating anything, I'm wondering out loud,

763
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: what is the cost of nurfing the world with kids?

764
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: Of course you want to protect them, of course to

765
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 1: a point, But then where's the line and how much

766
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: do you let them fall down and learn and make mistakes?

767
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, you came last in the race,

768
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: and that's okay, we love you, you're awesome, but you

769
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: came last. And it's okay that you came last. We're

770
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: not going to pretend that you didn't. Like It's to

771
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: me that stuff where because when you leave the parental nest,

772
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: you're going to come last at something. You're going to

773
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: fuck up, you're going to get embarrassed, you're going to

774
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: be you're going to get rejected, you're going to like

775
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: And if we're not teaching kids about this when they're kids,

776
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: while still loving them and protecting them, I'm like, you know,

777
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: if they come out of the nest at eight nine

778
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: and twenty and then they got pushed out into a

779
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: reality they're ill prepared for. Yeah, that's fucking that's dangerous too.

780
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually really important for kids to learn how

781
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 3: to feel their emotions, identif by their emotions, express their emotions,

782
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 3: validate their emotions, and so we're protecting them from disappointment

783
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 3: or embarrassment. Then they don't learn how to manage those

784
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 3: emotions and maybe even think that they're wrong to have

785
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: them in the first place. Like your example of like

786
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 3: coming last, I think this is something like, I mean,

787
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: I'm sure I've done this too. Like you don't want

788
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 3: to see your kids disappointed, so you might say, oh,

789
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: you know, it's you know, it's fine, or you know,

790
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: or this happened and that's why you came last. You

791
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 3: make excuses for it or whatever. But the child knows

792
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 3: they came last. So in some ways you're invalidating their experience,

793
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 3: their experiences that they came last, and they're disappointed by that.

794
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 3: But then you come in and you try to, you know,

795
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 3: like you said, make it better, and so they don't

796
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 3: get to express how disappointed they are because the message

797
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: they're getting is I shouldn't feel sad or disappointed, or

798
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: there's these other reasons why this occurred, or.

799
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: It's okay though it's oh, you're disappointed.

800
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: That's okay, Yes, exactly, it is okay to be it's actually, yeah,

801
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 3: it makes sense for you to be disappointed when you

802
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: come last. Actually, it does make sense. It's a painful emotion,

803
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 3: but it makes sense.

804
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 1: Well, this is coming from a kid too, an next

805
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: kid that came last a lot like I came last

806
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: a lot. I would have stood there fifty sixty seventy

807
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: times as teams were being picked. Yeah, and being the

808
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: last one picked, and that wasn't a lot of fun.

809
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: But like, I know why I was the last one

810
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: picked because I was the worst athlete, because I was

811
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 1: morbidly obese. And I get it. And people go, oh

812
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: my god, oh my god, But I get it. It's

813
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: like I, oh, okay, Craig Will, I want good athletes.

814
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 1: And at this point in you know, later on, I

815
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: lost some weight and I became an okay athlete and

816
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: things changed a bit. But I know for me anyway,

817
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: and don't I wouldn't recommend that to anyone, what I

818
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: went through. And I understands it makes people cringe and

819
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: all of that, but and my experience, as no one else's,

820
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: I get all of that. But for me, it made

821
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: me really fucking motivated. Eventually, Eventually I got to the

822
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: point I went, oh, well, I'm going to keep coming last,

823
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep getting embarrassed, I'm going to keep

824
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: being socially invisible. I'm going to fucking hell. And I

825
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: could silk and winge and complain, but at the end

826
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: of the day, I was the problem because I was

827
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: the one eating all the food. I was the one

828
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 1: that you know, my mum wasn't forced feeding me, you know,

829
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: and I was the one not exercising, and so you know,

830
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: it was painful, but it was also for me. It

831
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: was it was also a lesson and I wouldn't want

832
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: any other kids to necessarily go through that. But at

833
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: the same time, I think that I don't know, like

834
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of messiness and a little bit of

835
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: discomfort and you know, and by the way, it's it's

836
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 1: never going to stop happening. So we need to teach

837
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: kids and grown ups how to cope.

838
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do, and in lots of different ways. Like

839
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 3: you know, with my kids when they because they're they're

840
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 3: teenagers now, but you know, they when they turn like thirteen,

841
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 3: they start getting embarrassed by like everything, so like you

842
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 3: play the music too loud in the car with the

843
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,959
Speaker 3: windows up, turn the music down, you know, like there's

844
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 3: and I like, so I will purposefully embarrass them, like

845
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 3: because I think it's good for them, And I will

846
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: tell them that. I'll be like, it's good for you

847
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 3: to be embarrassed. You need to practice like being embarrassed.

848
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: So I'll just and it's not like it's not being spirited,

849
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 3: it's like literally so that they are resilient with that

850
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 3: emotion because there's so much, so much time and energy

851
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: wasted on feeling awkward, embarrassed, anxious. And if they don't

852
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: learn how to tolerate that now, even though they get

853
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: super annoyed by it, then what is it going to

854
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 3: be like in the future. Like, I'd rather them just

855
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 3: learn to be embarrassed now as a lesson, and so

856
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 3: then I get to enjoy it as well. I get

857
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: to enjoy it embarrassing it from time to time.

858
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: What about the idea of parents who are like in

859
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: Inverted Comma's best friends with their kids. Is that a

860
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: dumb idea? I don't know that.

861
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 3: I feel like I don't know. It's just depends on

862
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 3: what you mean by that.

863
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: Well, you know how I've heard it. Moms say it

864
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: more than dad's. But I'll say with their you know,

865
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: by my daughter and I have best friends, I'm like, Okay,

866
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe that's a good idea. I just

867
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: I done well.

868
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I think yeah, I think, gosh, I think

869
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 3: this is like a it's fraud. I think, like I

870
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 3: would like to think. But my daughter's seventeen. Now we

871
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 3: have a really open communicative relationship, but also a regular

872
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: mother daughter relationship where we get annoyed with each other

873
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff. When she's older, I

874
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: would like her to considering me a best friend. I

875
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 3: feel like when you're both adults and you've gone through things.

876
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 3: But I do say that it's not just that though

877
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: you're always going to be their mother, but potentially, and

878
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 3: I haven't gotten to this stage yet so I don't know,

879
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 3: but potentially, when as they get older, you're doing a

880
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 3: lot less mothering, so there's more room for the friendship

881
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: side to develop. What when they're children and adolescens, your

882
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 3: primary role is mother like guidance, boundary, lessons, and friendship

883
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 3: is if it's there, it's secondary. It can't be the

884
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 3: primary Because I don't know. It depends on what kind

885
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 3: of friends you have. Like you if your friendships are

886
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 3: about you know, advice giving and setting boundaries and you

887
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 3: like teaching lessons and stuff, maybe that's your version of

888
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 3: friendship and that's what it means to you. But I

889
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 3: guess I think that you can It's one of those things.

890
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 3: Maybe you can be both at the same time, but

891
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 3: at different stages of their development. One is going to

892
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 3: come out a lot more than the other.

893
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: Do you ever talk to your patients Do you call

894
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: them patients or clients? Patients call them clients. Do you

895
00:54:54,719 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: ever talk to your clients about about their own thinking?

896
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: You know, like metacognitive like where you just oh when

897
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 1: you think that, do you ever hit the pause button

898
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: then go wow, where did that thought come from? Or

899
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: why do I think that? Or where did that belief

900
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: come from? Does that serve me or sabotage me? Where?

901
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: You know, we try to understand our own mind and

902
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: the processes of our own mind, just to create a

903
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: bit of space between me and my mind, me and

904
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: my thoughts. Do you ever talk to people about that

905
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 1: kind of metacognitive kind of process.

906
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's kind of the foundation of most

907
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 3: of the therapy that I do. I would say it's

908
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 3: the foundation of cognitive behavioral therapy to be aware of

909
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 3: your thoughts, to challenge your thoughts potentially, to understand where

910
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 3: they come from, the origins of your thoughts, modify them. Also,

911
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 3: you know, a core skill is mindfulness, not of CBT

912
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:15,919
Speaker 3: so much, but you know, the kind of third wave

913
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 3: CBT therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy and dialectical behavior

914
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 3: therapy include mindfulness as a core skill, and part of

915
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 3: that can be mindfulness of your thoughts. Like I've I recorded,

916
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 3: I record I don't know if you know this, but

917
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 3: I've recorded like like three albums of relaxation and mindfulness

918
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 3: exercises over the years, and one of the ones that

919
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 3: I recorded is called mindfulness of thoughts like clouds in

920
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 3: the sky and what that The purpose of that is

921
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 3: so that people can observe their thoughts non judgmentally and

922
00:56:55,400 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 3: so without trying to change anything. So so helping people understand,

923
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 3: like be able to see their thoughts from a distance

924
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 3: as an observer and not necessarily attached to them and

925
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 3: hold on to them or even engage them in any way,

926
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 3: not like not even challenge them or anything, just literally

927
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 3: just watching them go by, just like you might watch

928
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: the sky and see the clouds go by, or sometimes

929
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 3: people like to imagine like leaves on a stream. Sometimes

930
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 3: that can be extremely helpful for anxiety and stress management,

931
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 3: and especially the non judgmental peace of mindfulness. I think

932
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: that that's people often talk about mindfulness as being in

933
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 3: the present moment, which it is, but they're forgetting the

934
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 3: other part of it, which is the judgmental part. It's

935
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 3: observing things in the present moment nonjudgmentally. That makes it

936
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,280
Speaker 3: a really helpful practice. And when you can do that,

937
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 3: and that's probably one of the hardest things to do,

938
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: then you can again to achieve I guess more emotional

939
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 3: and cognitive stability.

940
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: Do you think people are aware of the space between

941
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,919
Speaker 1: the thing that's happening and their story about the thing

942
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 1: that's happening, you know, like the reality, the objective reality

943
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: of the event or the situation or the circumstance versus

944
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: our interpretation of it. You know, it's like when someone

945
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: listens to me and I say fuck, and they think

946
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: I'm offensive than their experiences, they are offended. Yes, when

947
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 1: someone else hears the ex or is impacted by the

948
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 1: exact same stimulus me saying fuck, and they think it's

949
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: amusing their literal experiences. They're amused, right, and so whatever

950
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: their story is about that, I'm just using that word

951
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: because people can relate, you know, because people are going

952
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: to respond one way. Oh that's offensive, that's funny, that's inappropriate,

953
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: that's appropriate. Oh that's craig, you know, Like people have

954
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: a story and then they believe their story and that

955
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: becomes their experience. So for them it's not like, oh,

956
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: this is just my personal response. They're like, no, that

957
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: is categorically offensive. No, bro, it's just offensive to you

958
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: because there's nineteen other people who are not offended. Yes,

959
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: is that kind of opening the door on becoming more

960
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: self aware of our own ability to create a subjective

961
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: experience in the middle of the objective whatever that's going on.

962
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that your question about whether most people

963
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: are aware of that maybe not. Again, that's like a

964
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: foundational foundation of CBT is this idea that our thoughts

965
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 3: are what and our interpretations and our perspectives impact how

966
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 3: we feel and what we do. So if we understand

967
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 3: what the difference is between the facts of the situation, yes,

968
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: and our interpretation of the facts. Yes, then we can

969
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 3: do a lot with how we not just the content

970
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 3: of what we think, but our patterns of thinking. Yes,

971
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 3: it's not just like I'm like, I'm offended because you know,

972
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 3: my beliefs or this or that, But it's also like,

973
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 3: do I have a pattern of thinking that is full

974
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: of shoulds all or nothing? Black or white? Thinking? Over

975
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: generalizing all of these kinds of patterns that we all

976
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 3: have to some extent, But for some people they have

977
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 3: a lot more. And because they're not aware, they don't

978
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 3: realize how much it's impacting their life and how they

979
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 3: interact with the world and how and how it actually

980
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 3: impacts them internally.

981
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: I think also too, when when you think so in

982
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: way about something, or you have a certain idea or

983
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 1: ideology or philosophy or belief about a certain thing and

984
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: you've believed that or you've thought that about that for

985
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: a very long time and you're sure about that, that

986
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 1: gets into woven with your identity. And so when I

987
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: challenge that thought or that idea, then for you, I'm

988
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: challenging your identity. Yeah, you know so. And it's like

989
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 1: the idea of being open minded is easy. The reality

990
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 1: the reality is another thing.

991
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 3: Right, totally. I agree with that and for sure, like

992
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 3: there have been many times where I'm like, my thought

993
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 3: process has been more like I'm right or wrong. And

994
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 3: that's with awareness, right, that's with knowing.

995
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: That's you being a clinical psychologist who's smart. Yeah, of course, and.

996
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 3: I'm being willful right in that moment, I know that

997
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm being wilful and stubborn and irrational at the same

998
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 3: time as I would like to express that I am

999
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 3: correct and you know nothing.

1000
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: And as I've said many times, when you think or

1001
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: I think on a particular matter that I am unequivocally right,

1002
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: then I also believe concurrently that everyone in the world

1003
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: who disagrees with me is wrong.

1004
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 3: Right.

1005
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 1: No, that's a big stand. Hey, we've got to wind

1006
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: up because Tiff and I have got another show in

1007
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: a little while. I wish we had more time, but

1008
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: I love chatting with you. How can people connect with you,

1009
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 1: doctor Lillian.

1010
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 3: Well, they can have a look at the website Doctor

1011
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 3: Liliannaja dot com and if they want to work on

1012
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 3: their worries and anxiety can go to Contain your Brain

1013
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 3: dot com.

1014
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 1: Awesome, we appreciate you. It's always fun chatting to you.

1015
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 3: Great type of you, guys.

1016
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: You've splain over there, just man handling. Oh I nearly

1017
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: said something terrible, bear, and I wasn't even trying to

1018
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 1: be funny.

1019
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 3: Craig her cat exactly well exactly yes, Thanks TIV, Thanks guys. Bye,