1 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:06,960 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,650 Sean Aylmer: Digital advertising is booming. Stats out of the US show 3 00:00:10,650 --> 00:00:15,810 Sean Aylmer: that in 2021, the digital advertising spend worldwide was 520 4 00:00:15,990 --> 00:00:20,579 Sean Aylmer: billion US dollars, that's about 800 billion Aussie, and that 5 00:00:20,579 --> 00:00:24,119 Sean Aylmer: this will grow to almost 900 billion US dollars in 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,790 Sean Aylmer: the next five years. My guest today has played a 7 00:00:26,790 --> 00:00:30,960 Sean Aylmer: large part in that growth. Brian O'Kelley is widely considered 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,960 Sean Aylmer: the godfather of ad tech, as one of the inventors 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,350 Sean Aylmer: of programmatic advertising, which we'll explain in a moment, at 10 00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:39,840 Sean Aylmer: least Brian will. He was the co- founder and CEO 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,960 Sean Aylmer: of AppNexus, through to its $ 1. 6 billion sale to AT& 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,050 Sean Aylmer: T, the Telco Giant in the US. He's done plenty 13 00:00:46,050 --> 00:00:48,989 Sean Aylmer: of other things, including co- founding Waybridge, a supply chain 14 00:00:48,990 --> 00:00:51,690 Sean Aylmer: technology company, but he's now returning to the ad tech 15 00:00:51,690 --> 00:00:55,470 Sean Aylmer: space with a new venture. Scope3 is a company with 16 00:00:55,470 --> 00:00:58,650 Sean Aylmer: a strong environmental focus and a goal of fixing some 17 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:01,860 Sean Aylmer: of the problems in the system he helped develop. Brian's 18 00:01:01,860 --> 00:01:03,720 Sean Aylmer: in Australia at the moment for the local launch of 19 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,720 Sean Aylmer: Scope3 and joins me this morning. Brian O'Kelley, welcome to 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:07,470 Sean Aylmer: Fear & Greed. 21 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:08,640 Brian O'Kelley: Thanks for having me. 22 00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:11,459 Sean Aylmer: What's it like being the godfather of ad tech? 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,520 Brian O'Kelley: I tell you what, when I go to a cocktail 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,819 Brian O'Kelley: party and tell people that I'm in ad tech, they 25 00:01:17,819 --> 00:01:20,940 Brian O'Kelley: either walk away or say, " You're the reason I keep 26 00:01:20,940 --> 00:01:25,560 Brian O'Kelley: seeing these lingerie ads." I try to explain it's because 27 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,479 Brian O'Kelley: they've visited lingerie sites. 28 00:01:27,900 --> 00:01:31,319 Sean Aylmer: A lot of people put themselves in it, really. Tell 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,380 Sean Aylmer: me, for those who aren't familiar, just explain what programmatic 30 00:01:34,380 --> 00:01:39,840 Sean Aylmer: advertising is and how it differs from normal advertising. 31 00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:45,089 Brian O'Kelley: Well, the idea of programmatic is that whenever you go 32 00:01:45,090 --> 00:01:48,150 Brian O'Kelley: to a webpage or an mobile app or really anything, 33 00:01:48,510 --> 00:01:52,620 Brian O'Kelley: there's this split second between when the content loads and 34 00:01:52,620 --> 00:01:55,320 Brian O'Kelley: when the ads load. And in that split second, we 35 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,110 Brian O'Kelley: hold an auction and we go to every advertiser and 36 00:01:58,110 --> 00:02:00,420 Brian O'Kelley: every agency and all the buyers and say, " Who will 37 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:03,660 Brian O'Kelley: pay the most money for this person right now?" And 38 00:02:03,660 --> 00:02:06,001 Brian O'Kelley: so everybody's bidding on the chance to show you an ad. 39 00:02:06,001 --> 00:02:10,500 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So the point there in a sense, is that in the 40 00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:13,050 Sean Aylmer: old world, let's say it's Toyota or a McDonald's, a big 41 00:02:13,050 --> 00:02:16,350 Sean Aylmer: spender that, might come and say, " I want these slots 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,889 Sean Aylmer: on websites, on socials," whereas what you're talking about is 43 00:02:22,950 --> 00:02:27,899 Sean Aylmer: that literally in a split second, someone is bidding for 44 00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:30,150 Sean Aylmer: that spot and the highest bidder wins and gets it. 45 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:33,150 Sean Aylmer: So it's not kind of, if I'm McDonald's, I may 46 00:02:33,150 --> 00:02:35,520 Sean Aylmer: not know exactly when my ad will run, but I 47 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,769 Sean Aylmer: know I'm bidding for a slot? 48 00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:41,639 Brian O'Kelley: Well, I think the bigger difference is in the old 49 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,639 Brian O'Kelley: world, everybody would see the same ad. If you were 50 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,410 Brian O'Kelley: watching Channel Nine at 5: 00 PM, McDonald's ad would 51 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:53,850 Brian O'Kelley: show for everybody. Now everybody sees a different ad because 52 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,669 Brian O'Kelley: each advertiser sees every individual differently, and that means that 53 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:04,830 Brian O'Kelley: there's a much more personalized experience. That's why I might 54 00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:08,580 Brian O'Kelley: get lingerie ads and you won't, because an advertiser might 55 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:12,600 Brian O'Kelley: know that I've been browsing lingerie sites. That's powerful, but 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,460 Brian O'Kelley: it also creates all of these problems around privacy, around 57 00:03:18,389 --> 00:03:22,290 Brian O'Kelley: all this technology being used to make these decisions. That's 58 00:03:22,290 --> 00:03:24,900 Brian O'Kelley: where Scope3 comes in because we're like, " Wow, that's a 59 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:28,590 Brian O'Kelley: lot of computers and servers and electricity just to show 60 00:03:28,590 --> 00:03:30,930 Brian O'Kelley: people ads, is it really worth it?" 61 00:03:31,169 --> 00:03:34,350 Sean Aylmer: Just before we get onto Scope3, so does it work? 62 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:37,380 Brian O'Kelley: Does it work in the sense of does it make 63 00:03:37,380 --> 00:03:40,619 Brian O'Kelley: a lot of people more money? Yes. Does it work 64 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,760 Brian O'Kelley: in the sense of does showing everyone a different ad 65 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:48,029 Brian O'Kelley: make the ads work better? Not clear. 66 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:49,620 Sean Aylmer: Explain that. 67 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:54,570 Brian O'Kelley: Well, there's a lot of research that says that we 68 00:03:54,570 --> 00:03:59,970 Brian O'Kelley: need to, well, we're social creatures basically, and that one 69 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:03,480 Brian O'Kelley: reason we buy things is because we think that all 70 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,110 Brian O'Kelley: of our friends want the same thing. And so we're 71 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:11,070 Brian O'Kelley: not just point and click machines, that just because you 72 00:04:11,340 --> 00:04:14,160 Brian O'Kelley: were searching for a car and you went to the 73 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,330 Brian O'Kelley: car's website to check it out, doesn't necessarily mean that 74 00:04:18,330 --> 00:04:20,760 Brian O'Kelley: you just want to see ads for that car. And 75 00:04:21,029 --> 00:04:24,060 Brian O'Kelley: that the idea of branding in general is to create 76 00:04:24,060 --> 00:04:27,390 Brian O'Kelley: this sense of aspiration around what we might want or 77 00:04:27,390 --> 00:04:31,200 Brian O'Kelley: might need or education. And that the more we try 78 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,560 Brian O'Kelley: to make it mechanical, like we're just Mechanical Turks that 79 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,690 Brian O'Kelley: are supposed to click on things, we kind of lose 80 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:39,210 Brian O'Kelley: a little bit of the beauty and creativity of advertising. 81 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:41,880 Brian O'Kelley: And so I guess I would say that what we've 82 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,810 Brian O'Kelley: done is tried to optimize people kind of the way 83 00:04:45,810 --> 00:04:50,549 Brian O'Kelley: that maybe you criticize a Facebook for trying to turn 84 00:04:50,550 --> 00:04:54,120 Brian O'Kelley: us into algorithms, as opposed to letting, I don't know, 85 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,529 Brian O'Kelley: synchronicity happen, that sense of discovery or joy of an 86 00:04:58,529 --> 00:05:01,799 Brian O'Kelley: ad that surprises us. I think we need surprises. I 87 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,570 Brian O'Kelley: think we're people, a species that wants to be delighted 88 00:05:06,570 --> 00:05:09,030 Brian O'Kelley: by things, and I don't think you can optimize for that. 89 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:11,580 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Brian. We'll be back in a minute. 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,359 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Brian O'Kelley, Founder and CEO of Scope3. 91 00:05:22,830 --> 00:05:24,930 Sean Aylmer: So let's move on to Scope3 and what you're doing 92 00:05:24,930 --> 00:05:28,440 Sean Aylmer: there. I mean, firstly, how's digital advertising harming the planet? 93 00:05:28,650 --> 00:05:29,909 Sean Aylmer: Explain the link. 94 00:05:31,290 --> 00:05:35,370 Brian O'Kelley: So out there in the cloud somewhere, there are millions 95 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:39,479 Brian O'Kelley: and millions of servers, just computers sitting in these very 96 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,470 Brian O'Kelley: cold, dark rooms. And these computers use a huge amount 97 00:05:43,470 --> 00:05:47,190 Brian O'Kelley: of electricity, something like 2% of all the electricity on 98 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:50,010 Brian O'Kelley: the planet. There's been a lot of talk about crypto 99 00:05:50,430 --> 00:05:54,180 Brian O'Kelley: and how Bitcoin mining uses an immense amount of electricity. 100 00:05:54,690 --> 00:06:00,000 Brian O'Kelley: Well, programmatic advertising isn't that different. It's a highly computationally 101 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,849 Brian O'Kelley: intensive way to try to figure out what ad you're 102 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:07,080 Brian O'Kelley: likely to react to. And therefore, the more we do 103 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,900 Brian O'Kelley: it, the more data we store, the more auctions we 104 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:14,339 Brian O'Kelley: have, the more servers we need. And there's actually entire 105 00:06:14,339 --> 00:06:16,140 Brian O'Kelley: parts of the world where you can't even build a 106 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:19,289 Brian O'Kelley: house, like in West London, because the data centers are 107 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:23,730 Brian O'Kelley: using all the electricity and that's crazy. So it's a 108 00:06:23,730 --> 00:06:28,979 Brian O'Kelley: direct link between advertising and the internet and the real 109 00:06:28,980 --> 00:06:32,220 Brian O'Kelley: world. I think people assume that because it's digital or 110 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:36,210 Brian O'Kelley: virtual, it's not physical, but every single thing you do 111 00:06:36,210 --> 00:06:39,900 Brian O'Kelley: online is tied to something physical, some server in some 112 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:44,250 Brian O'Kelley: data center, using real electricity, using real water, that's the link. 113 00:06:44,790 --> 00:06:48,480 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So Scope3 is your new company, and it's focusing on emissions 114 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,050 Sean Aylmer: across the entire supply chain and the advertising, marketing and 115 00:06:52,050 --> 00:06:53,820 Sean Aylmer: publishing industries. That's correct? 116 00:06:54,420 --> 00:06:58,589 Brian O'Kelley: Yeah, exactly. That supply chain, the connection between the way 117 00:06:58,589 --> 00:07:01,890 Brian O'Kelley: that we fund the internet, the internet's basically funded by 118 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,169 Brian O'Kelley: advertising and the impact of that advertising on the planet. 119 00:07:07,650 --> 00:07:10,710 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how's it work? Can you almost ... A practical 120 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:16,470 Sean Aylmer: example just to explain how Scope3 does the whole supply 121 00:07:16,470 --> 00:07:18,060 Sean Aylmer: chain, rather than just the end bit? 122 00:07:18,540 --> 00:07:21,330 Brian O'Kelley: Yeah, so let's use a webpage because I think we're 123 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:23,100 Brian O'Kelley: all familiar with them. So if you go to a 124 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:26,460 Brian O'Kelley: website, you're going to see some text and some images, 125 00:07:26,790 --> 00:07:31,620 Brian O'Kelley: behind the scenes, there's hundreds, sometimes thousands of different requests going 126 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,310 Brian O'Kelley: to different servers all around the internet, to pull back 127 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:38,940 Brian O'Kelley: the images, to hold these auctions for ads, to share 128 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:42,450 Brian O'Kelley: your user data with different people. Every time one of 129 00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:45,600 Brian O'Kelley: those requests goes out, it's going to a server and 130 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,510 Brian O'Kelley: it's causing one server to spin up for a few 131 00:07:48,510 --> 00:07:51,300 Brian O'Kelley: milliseconds, to try to do something for you. So there 132 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:55,200 Brian O'Kelley: could be thousands of servers involved in delivering one webpage 133 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,990 Brian O'Kelley: to you, and every one of those servers uses energy, 134 00:07:58,290 --> 00:08:00,810 Brian O'Kelley: as well as all the bandwidth being used to deliver 135 00:08:00,810 --> 00:08:03,360 Brian O'Kelley: all that to your computer or your phone, and then 136 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,720 Brian O'Kelley: the actual CPU on your device that's actually spinning up 137 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,600 Brian O'Kelley: in the screen and everything else. It's kind of amazing 138 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,450 Brian O'Kelley: to think about all the elements of that supply chain 139 00:08:12,660 --> 00:08:15,540 Brian O'Kelley: coming together just to show you one little bit of content. 140 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:17,880 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. And can you measure that? 141 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,750 Brian O'Kelley: We can. It's kind of crazy to think about it, 142 00:08:21,750 --> 00:08:25,680 Brian O'Kelley: but because I was one of the architects of programmatic 143 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,250 Brian O'Kelley: advertising, I know how all of this works, and I've 144 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:31,200 Brian O'Kelley: been able to work with some of the largest brands 145 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:36,000 Brian O'Kelley: and agencies in the world to help drive this impetus 146 00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:41,309 Brian O'Kelley: for reduction of carbon. Most big brands, most big companies 147 00:08:41,550 --> 00:08:44,819 Brian O'Kelley: have some kind of sustainability initiative. And when I explain 148 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:47,310 Brian O'Kelley: to them, as an example, I went to a large 149 00:08:47,580 --> 00:08:51,870 Brian O'Kelley: consumer products company and we did some analysis that the 150 00:08:51,900 --> 00:08:56,490 Brian O'Kelley: programmatic advertising that they did just in Europe produced more 151 00:08:56,490 --> 00:08:59,520 Brian O'Kelley: carbon than all of their global business travel for the 152 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:00,030 Brian O'Kelley: whole company. 153 00:09:00,780 --> 00:09:00,839 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 154 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,660 Brian O'Kelley: They're like, " Wow, it would be a lot easier to address 155 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,350 Brian O'Kelley: the carbon footprint of our advertising than to not fly 156 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:10,860 Brian O'Kelley: to all these important meetings and conferences and whatever." Not 157 00:09:10,860 --> 00:09:13,199 Brian O'Kelley: that they shouldn't do that too. But it really is 158 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,840 Brian O'Kelley: a huge number when you add it all up. And 159 00:09:16,050 --> 00:09:19,350 Brian O'Kelley: yeah, we can calculate pretty accurately. One thing that's interesting 160 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:24,090 Brian O'Kelley: for Australia is that because your grid, your electrical grid 161 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:28,260 Brian O'Kelley: has a lot of coal in it, your average emissions 162 00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:31,890 Brian O'Kelley: per kilowatt- hour are higher than in other places, which 163 00:09:31,890 --> 00:09:35,340 Brian O'Kelley: means that reducing your energy usage actually has a much 164 00:09:35,429 --> 00:09:39,660 Brian O'Kelley: bigger impact than in places that are more hydro or 165 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,980 Brian O'Kelley: other renewable powered. 166 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:47,460 Sean Aylmer: So are you helping these companies identify their emissions, are 167 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:50,040 Sean Aylmer: you then doing the next step, which is helping them 168 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:51,000 Sean Aylmer: reduce them? 169 00:09:51,660 --> 00:09:54,720 Brian O'Kelley: Absolutely. And that that's the only reason that I am 170 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:58,380 Brian O'Kelley: doing this company, is I want to actually reduce emissions 171 00:09:58,410 --> 00:10:02,370 Brian O'Kelley: from advertising and media. And so what we hope, the 172 00:10:02,370 --> 00:10:05,370 Brian O'Kelley: theory is that if these big brands see these numbers 173 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,100 Brian O'Kelley: and they say, " Wait, I don't want to spend this 174 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:11,700 Brian O'Kelley: much carbon on advertising," that they'll call their ad agencies, 175 00:10:11,700 --> 00:10:14,640 Brian O'Kelley: they'll call their ad technology partners, they'll call their key 176 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,940 Brian O'Kelley: publishers and say, " Hey, I need you to reduce the 177 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:22,530 Brian O'Kelley: amount of carbon you're emitting based on my spend." And 178 00:10:22,620 --> 00:10:25,290 Brian O'Kelley: there's very clear ways to do that that I won't 179 00:10:25,290 --> 00:10:29,160 Brian O'Kelley: go into because there's some technology bits and pieces that 180 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:34,680 Brian O'Kelley: are complicated, but basically holding fewer auctions, using less data, 181 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:37,950 Brian O'Kelley: causing fewer servers to spin up every time you load 182 00:10:37,950 --> 00:10:41,250 Brian O'Kelley: a webpage or an app is very possible. As an 183 00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:44,490 Brian O'Kelley: end user, as someone browsing the web, you would not 184 00:10:44,490 --> 00:10:48,270 Brian O'Kelley: notice these things. Maybe things would actually be faster. But 185 00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:53,220 Brian O'Kelley: it's a dramatic difference in the underlying carbon footprint. And 186 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,250 Brian O'Kelley: if you're spending a billion dollars a year on advertising, 187 00:10:56,309 --> 00:11:00,840 Brian O'Kelley: think about Procter & Gamble, spends $ 8 billion on advertising, I 188 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,640 Brian O'Kelley: think when they call you up and say, " Hey, I 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,309 Brian O'Kelley: need you to cut your carbon footprint, or I'm taking 190 00:11:05,309 --> 00:11:08,250 Brian O'Kelley: my money somewhere else," you're probably going to listen. 191 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:11,790 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just talking to you now 192 00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:14,490 Sean Aylmer: and you kind of have this passion to reduce emissions. 193 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:17,970 Sean Aylmer: If you had your time again, would you have developed 194 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:21,210 Sean Aylmer: programmatic advertising or would you have done things differently? 195 00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:27,330 Brian O'Kelley: Oh, that is a great question. The first version of 196 00:11:27,330 --> 00:11:30,900 Brian O'Kelley: programmatic was at a company called Right Media, that I 197 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:36,210 Brian O'Kelley: was the chief technology officer for back in 2004, and 198 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:40,020 Brian O'Kelley: we sold that to Yahoo in 2007. And with that 199 00:11:40,020 --> 00:11:44,850 Brian O'Kelley: sale went a huge amount of intellectual property, most of 200 00:11:44,850 --> 00:11:48,960 Brian O'Kelley: which was around how to make programmatic more efficient. And 201 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:55,110 Brian O'Kelley: unfortunately, that technology didn't go anywhere with Yahoo. And so 202 00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:58,109 Brian O'Kelley: I think if I'd known that it was going to 203 00:11:58,110 --> 00:12:03,210 Brian O'Kelley: get even crazier and more complicated and more fragmented, I 204 00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:05,160 Brian O'Kelley: might have found a better way to do it in 205 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,370 Brian O'Kelley: the beginning. And sometimes I regret that we sold Right 206 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:11,340 Brian O'Kelley: Media because I think we would've done many of the 207 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:14,670 Brian O'Kelley: things we're doing now, back then, if we had still 208 00:12:14,670 --> 00:12:17,250 Brian O'Kelley: controlled the platform and the core technology. 209 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:20,760 Sean Aylmer: Brian, good luck with Scope3 here in Australia, and thank 210 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,170 Sean Aylmer: you for talking to Fear & Greed. 211 00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:23,339 Brian O'Kelley: Thanks for having me. 212 00:12:23,940 --> 00:12:27,870 Sean Aylmer: That was Brian O'Kelley, Founder and CEO of Scope3. This is 213 00:12:27,870 --> 00:12:30,300 Sean Aylmer: The Fear & Greed Daily Interview. Join us every morning for 214 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,300 Sean Aylmer: the full episode of Fear & Greed, Australia's most popular business 215 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:35,670 Sean Aylmer: podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.