WEBVTT - Episode 24: Listener Night 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains coarse 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:11.719 you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.400 I'm Claire Harvey from The Australian. I'm the editorial director 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.080 and I host our daily news podcast, The Front. It's 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.640 been a year since Headley Thomas started visiting Lennox head 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.360 in the investigation for this podcast. Bromwyn Subscribers to The 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.720 Australian get all our episodes first a special way to 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.560 thank them and all of our listeners. From time to 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.679 time we hold special live events where we invite the 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.480 audience to come along to meet the team, share a 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.720 drink and some refreshments. It's a chance to reflect on 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.320 how far we've come, to meet the listeners who make 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.040 it all possible, and to answer their questions. This episode 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.679 of Bromwyn It's episode twenty four in this our third season, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.200 is a recording from a live event we held in 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.200 Sydney on February twenty seven, twenty twenty five, featuring Headley, 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.720 me National Crime correspondent David Murray, Senior writer Matthew Condon, 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.720 and Bromwin's cousin Mattie Walsh, who's become an invaluable part 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:40.880 of our podcast team. You'll hear some laughs as we 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.720 gently rib one another, and some serious and heartfelt moments too. 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.360 We reflect on the thoughtful, intelligent woman Bromwin was and 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.000 on the arrival in this story of characters we didn't expect, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:58.040 including former nurse Judy Singh, John Winfield's secret daughter Sonia Lee, 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:03.080 and John's late neighbor Beverly Brooker. We'll discuss the mystery 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.520 of how John became the beneficiary of Beverly's significant estate 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.560 and Andy Reid's please to police and the coroner to 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.480 act on the nearly thirty two year old disappearance of 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.760 his sister Bromwin. We'll hear Hedley and Dave Murray reflect 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.200 on exactly where the new South Wales Police investigation is going. 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:23.680 On the night, we had a chance to thank our 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:28.359 wonderful team, including producers Slade Gibson, Kristin Amiot, Leat, Sammaglou 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:32.240 and Stephanie Comes, and our events guru Jason Hamilton and 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:35.800 his team in the audience. We're our colleagues Leah Mendez 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.919 and Bianca far Marcus, plus many more, and as Hedley says, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.640 we're blessed with an amazing crew who are also our friends. 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.000 Good evening everyone. My name is Michelle Gunn. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.520 I'm editor in chief of The Australian and it is 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:55.160 my absolute pleasure to be here and to welcome you 0:02:55.240 --> 0:03:00.240 all here tonight. Podcasts are a very, very and port 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.120 part of what we do at The Australian. There's such 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:10.440 a powerful medium for storytelling, including hard hitting investigations such 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:15.760 as Bromwyn and The Teacher's Pet. The special source of 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:22.240 The Australian's podcasts is journalistic integrity and instinct. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:24.840 These guys have it in spades. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:30.360 It's an unwavering commitment to uncover the truth and a 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.239 strong desire, a very strong desire to make a difference. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.920 And that is what our newspaper is all about. That 0:03:39.080 --> 0:03:43.680 storytelling kind of brings our journalism to life. It's wonderful 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.400 to see so many of you here tonight. The story 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:52.520 of Bromwyn Winfield is beginning to captivate the nation. Eight 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.880 hundred thousand people listen to the very first episode alone. 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.880 There are so many people who want to get Behindhead 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.800 and Bromwin's family who are here tonight in their quest 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:10.400 for justice. We've seen Headley do this before. He's not 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.800 someone to be underestimated. So I'm looking very much forward 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.080 to joining you in listening to tonight's conversation. Before I go, 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.760 I'd just like to finally thank Katie Page and Jerry Harvey, 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.320 who are here tonight. They have been such wonderful and 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.880 steadfast supporters of The Australian and of Headley's journalism. We 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:37.200 are so very grateful for your belief and support in 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:40.800 our journalism and what we do. Thank you everybody, and. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:49.720 I'll hand over to claiv Thanks Michelle. You guys are 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.040 the most important people. None of this matters at all 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:56.000 if nobody listens. And more than seven point four million 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.760 downloads of Bronwin have happened so far, that's because I've 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:04.159 been in part Australians really do care about stories about 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.160 missing women. In fact, The Australian, through the work of 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.160 journalists like Hedley and Dave and Matt, we've been covering 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:15.400 issues of violence against women in the most important way 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.560 for a really long time. So I'm going to start 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.880 with a bit of a serious question Headley and Dave, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.679 this is a really hard issue to cover, violence against 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.000 women is as we often so often hear a really 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.760 serious problem in Australia and throughout the world. Did you 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.080 think when you stepped a toe into this new medium 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.279 of podcasting that it would be this issue that would 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:38.240 engage you the most. 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.560 I understood when I first started looking at the murder 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:48.720 of Lynn, that underlying that case was the most horrendous 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:53.280 example of a failure of the criminal justice system, of community, 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:59.480 of an education, department, of police, of prosecution service, and 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.600 all of those things added up to a failure to 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:07.520 properly deal with a violent crime against a female Linn. 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.720 But out of that has just blossomed the opportunity to 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.960 do all of these cases that we can that are 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:22.080 similarly needful. We couldn't have designed it this way. It's 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:27.680 just happened naturally and organically through goodwill of listeners, the 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.039 good will of people who have come forward to help 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.960 me and offer special expertise, some of whom are in 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.800 the audience tonight. People have been united and wanting to 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.520 make a difference in this area. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.960 Dave, you're one of Australia's most experienced crime reporters. Throughout 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:46.200 your body of work as a journalist and particularly in 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.000 your work in audio, you've covered violence against women. How 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.599 do you think Australians have changed the way they perceived 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:54.560 this issue over the years that you've been reporting. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.640 I've been reporting on violence against women in one form 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.120 or another for my entire career, you know, going back 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.320 to the nineties when I first started out as a journalist, 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.760 cases of women going missing and their family seeking answers. 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.240 Of course, now there's all these other platforms to tell 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.679 these stories and then more detail. But we've been striving 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.520 to tell these stories for some time and talking about 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:21.960 changing attitudes. I mean, you look at Lyn Dawson and 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.240 you look at now know as Lynn Simms at the 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.520 request of a family, You look at Bromwyn and you wonder, well, 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.920 how many other women out there went missing and were 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:36.640 just treated runaways? They weren't investigated properly at the time, 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:41.080 and then you know, many years later, the investigators to 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.320 pick up those cases, have to pick up the pieces 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.120 and they just in some cases, you know, then languish 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.640 for years and years and years. So you know, fortunately, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.040 now you know these cases, you know, we've got a 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:59.880 medium to look at them in incredible debt through podcasts, and. 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.880 You know that's why Headley's work has been so incredible. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.520 Matt is a national treasure. He's an acclaimed author. He 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.200 has some brilliant podcasts of his own, which I'm not 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:15.120 going to mention because they were published by the ABC. 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.400 But he's also the creator and host of the next 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.760 true crime podcast will be publishing, so that one is 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.040 coming soon. Matt is such a beautiful writer and such 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:29.880 a beautiful speaker, and so Matt, no pressure, but I 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.800 wanted to talk about Bromwin. She is, of course the 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.320 subject of this podcast. Matt, I asked you to write 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.560 the feature that we would publish to kind of kick 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.880 off this story in the paper, and you dug through 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:49.520 Bromwin's writings. What sort of person emerged in those diaries 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:50.480 and letters that you read? 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:53.959 Yeah, thank you, cir I. Just before I answered that, 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.200 I just wanted to share a thought I had sitting 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.439 there watching you and listening to the audience. In terms 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.559 of the journalism that we do. We get incredible support 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.560 obviously from Michelle and The Australian and our sponsors Katie Page, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:14.640 Harvey Norman, but listening to the audience humming as different 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.040 questions were coming up, it's a very unique experience in journalism. 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:25.000 To have this incredible support base of tens of thousands 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.600 of people you've never met, and to know that you're 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.360 there and you have the teams back, it's very special. 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.080 So I just wanted to share that firstly with you 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.760 before I lost my train of thought. But my first 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:44.040 introduction to Bronwyn was her writing, and I read it 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.480 very carefully, and I read it over and over, and 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.720 it was very poignant and very touching, and I tried 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:55.120 to find the woman behind the words. These peripheral judgments 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.360 may be wrong Andy her brother, but I sensed a 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:04.280 very loving human being, a very dedicated mother. I sensed 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.560 a woman who was trying to make the most of 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.920 a very difficult personal situation. I got the sense that 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:18.000 she was psychologically and physically in a vice, and that 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.079 she was trying to express herself. 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.079 When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely. 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.920 The house that was built became John's castle in my prison. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.760 My children have suffered from the environment that surrounded them. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.360 I was surrounded by hate and abuse in various ways 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.679 as a child, and am determined not to allow this 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.720 to happen to my girls or myself. Ever again. No 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.200 one will ever intimidate me again, nor will I allow 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.640 anyone to force their opinions onto me, as this can 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:52.560 cause damage to myself as well as my children. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.400 And at the end of those writings, she's very positive 0:10:57.880 --> 0:10:59.959 and she says, I'm looking forward. I'm going to move 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.600 forward positively with this. So I saw a woman who 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:08.800 had an enormous amount to give, but it was falling 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:13.760 on fallow ground, and she was in a very awkward scenario. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.040 She wrote beautifully, didn't she She did? 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.680 She did write beautifully. She wrote, to my mind, very honestly. 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:25.080 She didn't hold back in terms of her emotions, which 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.240 was another for me, a key insight into the sort 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.920 of person that she would have been. To my mind, 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.920 I would have loved to have met her, you know, 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.560 just one of those straight up people, a lot of 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.199 love to give, but was in a despicable situation near 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.640 the end that she was trying to find a way 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.880 out of. And the writing reflects that she's trying to 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:50.760 keep it together and. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:12:13.960 Move forward in a positive way. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.600 Helly, get into the big question first, why do you 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.880 think when twenty years ago the police went to the coroner. 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.960 The coroner went to the DVP, no charge was laid. 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.280 The coroner recommended a murder charge. The decision was made 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.280 I think, initially in a regional office in northern New 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:42.520 South Wales, that there would be no prosecution. And it 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:48.120 seems at first blush unfathomable, why after so much work, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.960 with such a compelling, circumstantial case, wouldn't you put it 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:56.079 before a jury. It's not to say that the accused 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.080 is guilty, just that there should be a determination. And 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.319 I've thought about this deeply over the years since I've 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.640 heard about Bromin's case, and since I've been talking to Andy, 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.679 read and reading the evidence, and all I can come 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:17.359 up with is a human error. I believe that the system, 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.839 clearly and quite obviously, in this case and in others 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:27.240 that I've been involved in, fails to grasp what most 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.840 people who can step back and look at all of 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.920 the evidence can see. That there is a strong prema 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:38.920 face case and that as the coroner, a very experienced 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:44.400 judicial officer, recommended, it should have been prosecuted. And the 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.960 coroner doesn't make a decision like that lightly. He has 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:53.440 to satisfy under the Coroner's Act a certain test, that 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.880 is that in his view, a jury would be likely 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:02.680 to find beyond reasonable doubt that the known person would 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:07.360 be found guilty. And that's an important bar. It's not 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.840 a balance of probabilities test. It's a strict legal test 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:16.120 at the higher level. So it's our job in journalism 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:21.440 and with these podcasts to try to re ignite these cases, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.880 to refresh them because the families don't have anyone else. 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.680 After the police have tried and failed or the DPPs 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.680 said well we're not going to take this forward, the 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.840 families then go back and say, well, where do we 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.800 go from here? And I think that police, even cold 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:46.320 case teams, unsolved homicide units, which are a more recent innovation, 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.400 they struggled because they've got limited resources and a huge 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.960 number of these cases that didn't go forward, or cases 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:55.720 that didn't even get to the stage of a brief 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.800 of evidence. And so we have the opportunity, with the 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.720 resources that the Australian makes available, with the goodwill of 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.840 the listenership and the help of people who want to 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.040 volunteer their time, we have the opportunity to make a 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:16.520 difference and find new evidence, new witnesses, people like Judy 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.000 Singh who came forward and who many people heard in 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.040 episode seven of the podcast. I mean that should have 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.040 been a game changer in my view. Right there, this 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:32.200 woman who said that she saw the Winfield family car 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.760 and Bromwin's estranged husband driving it with what appeared to 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.960 be a body wrapped in sheets in the vehicle late 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.880 at night, the night that Brombin disappeared. Now that's an 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.800 eye witness who's come forward with that evidence, and we 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.720 filmed her and tested her. And there was even another 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.840 witness who said she didn't see anything that night. She 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.800 wasn't there that night, but she had contact with Judy 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.600 who had clearly over the years been up said about 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:04.360 this and having the burden of this information and seeing 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.240 nothing done about it, all we can promise Andy and 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.000 Michelle and Caitlin and all of the Reed family is 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:16.000 that we'll keep trying. We'll keep trying to find new evidence. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.680 And it's not our job to directly pressure the DPP 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.040 or the police. They have to do their job independently. 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.160 But we believe that with the weight of the evidence 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.440 that comes out, we hope that it gets to a 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:35.720 tipping point where skilled prosecutors say, well, this is more 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.920 than enough, we can make something of this. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.480 Dave, what do you think the delay in this case 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.800 has done to it? You know, the fact that charges 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.120 were not laid in two and two when the coroner 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:51.119 recommended that they should be, and of course John Winfield 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.040 denies any wrongdoing and that that is yet to be 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.320 tested in any kind of court. We've seen a significant 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.240 delay there. In a very separate matter, Chris Dawson is 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:07.040 still pursuing his right to appeal. He's now telling the 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.640 High Court that because of delays and what is called 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.879 forensic disadvantage in the legal system, he can't get a 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.159 fair trial. He couldn't get a fair trial because police 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.720 delayed for so long. What do you think about that? 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:25.359 Yeah, well, we're eagerly awaiting that decision of Chris Dawson's appeal. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:27.919 I know that delay was cited in the letter that 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.840 Nicholas cardre the DPP way back at the time of 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.560 the inquest when he wrote to Andy Reid. You know, 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.320 he from memory cited the delay and the initial investigation 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.920 before he was taken up and investigated really thoroughly for 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:42.600 the first time. 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.240 The disappearance of your sister Bronwin Winfield in May nineteen 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.520 ninety three has no doubt caused much grief to you 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.000 and your family, and I offer my sympathies. My advice 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.639 to police in the coroner, after very careful consideration of 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.480 all the evidence presently available, is that there is not 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.679 sufficient evidence to charge Jonathan in Winfield or any other person. 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.440 Bronwin's disappearance was not reported to the police for two 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.280 weeks and was initially treated as a missing person inquiry. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.720 By the time it was dealt with as a possible homicide, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.320 years had passed and any potential scientific evidence was long gone. 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.880 There is nobody and no known cause of death. While 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.480 Jonathan Winfield is the last known person to have seen 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.040 her alive, there is no evidence that he killed her 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:29.000 or had any role in her disappearance. Suspicion cannot be 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:30.880 substitution for evidence. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.960 That was twenty plus years ago, so we're further down 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.840 the track. I think we've seen that these cases still 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.120 are solvable, even though there is a delay. It might 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:41.840 be a barrier, but it doesn't mean that they can't 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.800 be solved. It was solved in Linn's case. It was 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:49.080 solved in other cases that come to mind where women 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.399 went missinging as far back as the nineteen seventies. In 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.520 one case in South Australia, Colleen Adam, she was found 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.600 buried under concrete in the family property. So these cases 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.879 cant will be solved even though they resided delay. 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.359 Now, Headley, when you started this investigation, we had our 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.440 usual conversation where I say, you know, tell me about 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.320 the case, and you say, I think it can be solved. 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.800 It's really exciting. And then you say, I think it's 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.959 going to be six or seven episodes. We'll have it 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.280 done by March. So what went wrong? 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.919 Did I say six or seven episodes or seasons? You 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:29.879 keep finding new information and if we set a rigid 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:34.680 finished date or episode number, then how would we accommodate 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:39.400 all of the people with more information and unpack this 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.240 extraordinary case in the sort of detail that it deserves. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:48.320 And I feel that while we still have the extraordinary 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:52.119 support of the listenership and of the Australian and Andy 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:57.119 and Michelle and Maddie, who's still helping me wherever I ask, 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:02.280 she's been amazing, we've got more to do and I 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.840 don't want to get to a point where I say, well, 0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:06.679 we should have done this and we should have done that. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:08.920 But we were running out of time, we decided to 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:13.800 end it there. No, we keep going until every stone 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:20.560 and every newstone gets overturned, and that is my pledge 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.240 to the family and to the listenership. For some people, 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.480 the podcasts that we do, that I do particularly, are 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.760 just too detailed. There's too much information, that's too many people. 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.919 And I have a friend who says, man, I've got 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.160 a whiteboard in my garage and all the names. He said, 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.120 I feel like I'm in one of those true crime 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.800 dramas because stuff around. But he said I needed to 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:45.840 do that to work out all the different family connections. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.720 He said, I got to know everybody you know, and 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.360 I feel like they've become part of my daily kind 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.160 of routine. Where he was thinking, I wonder how Andy 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:59.720 is today, and I wonder what Mattie's going to say next, 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:01.640 which is what I wonder sometimes. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.080 Matte is definitely the breakout star of the podcast I 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.439 Eat It, Yeah, Dave, There were twists in this story 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.440 that we could not possibly have seen coming. At the beginning, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.600 Judy seeing the former nurse who described seeing what she 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.919 thought was a body wrapped in sheets driving past her 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.440 window in a car driven she says by John Winfield. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:26.919 I saw the car pull out at the end of 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.800 the street and the light was on in the car. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.520 There's very squeaky brakes on that car, and he drove 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.600 very slowly along the street, but he had left the 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.840 car light on and I could see directly into the car, 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.800 and I had a small lantern on the balcony rail 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.399 and he kind of looked up this night and I 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.240 saw this what looked to be like a mummy in 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.920 the back of the car, and I thought, well, if 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:02.040 he was taking out belonging, you wouldn't make it look 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:03.280 like a body. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.200 Do you know what I mean? So when you say 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.399 a mummy, it was wrapped in something. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:17.000 Yes, it was either very pale green or cream, not white, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.960 but maybe like a bed sheet or something like that. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.919 And I wanted the police to know that because I 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.800 thought the pressure of that, the weight of that on 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.000 the door might have been what was keeping the light on. 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.679 You were involved in testing that theory and with the 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.560 hardest part of which was obtaining an original which at 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:40.560 Headley was absolutely insistent on. 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.840 Yeah it was a Ford XS nine eighty seven sedan, 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.000 and absolutely insistent on getting it that day pretty much. 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.040 So Dave and I joined about forty Facebook groups. I'm 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:57.120 still getting friend requests from Ford xf fans on Facebook 0:22:57.160 --> 0:22:58.240 to try and track one down. 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.919 I remember sitting on the sidelines watching one of my 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.720 sons played football, or trying to watch, while I was 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.960 madly joining Facebook groups, sending messages to people responding to 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:14.000 ads selling these except Sedan's calling up car groups and 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:20.320 ridiculously that day got onto an incredible couple out at Ipswich. 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.280 He responded yet very quickly and basically said yeah, come 0:23:24.320 --> 0:23:26.480 come out tomorrow. And we needed to do it that 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.240 quick because we needed to get people down from Sydney. 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.680 We needed to go out and film this in time 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:34.840 for the episode, which was that week. 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:37.239 So Healy's initial request, by the way, was for us 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:38.119 to buy this. 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:42.480 Car the family, nice young couple who allowed us to 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:45.960 use their car for the day, and put one of 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:51.680 our colleagues Bianca. Where is Bianca, She's here. We wrapped 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:55.240 the anchor up in one of the one of those 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.920 sheets from home. Ruth said, oh, I take this one, 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:02.520 and so bianchor was on the ground being rolled over 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:06.320 in this sheet. But I felt that that was so amazing. 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.880 It just showed the team effort and we don't have 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.920 a full time staff team. We have lots of people 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:16.960 who come and help at at integral moments and they 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:21.280 help enormously, and so Claire and Dave and others, you know, 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.879 bi Anchor, they just all pitch in and we have 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.480 a you know, it's a serious business and we're talking 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:33.080 about dramatic and often really distressing stories and angles, but 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:36.399 we come together and work professionally and everyone gets on 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:39.280 really well. There haven't been a couple of tense moments, 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.480 and you know, I still feel really bad about getting 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:48.960 cross last year with someone, sorry Bianchor, but you know, we've. 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:52.440 Had I've become really worried about hix Plane, having repped 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.119 her in sheets with. 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.720 Stress levels are going through the roof. It also makes 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:01.080 a huge difference when you're working with and having contact 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:03.560 with people like Andy and Michelle. You know, they're just 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:09.240 such down to earth, decent, cooperative people who have supported 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.600 what we've done. They haven't always agreed with some of 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.760 the angles that have been addressed, and I understand that 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:20.320 they're raw. They're very sensitive issues. Who wants to have 0:25:21.040 --> 0:25:25.280 family tensions broadcast to the world, But you know, they've 0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:28.800 been up for everything, and I'm incredibly grateful that they 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:31.959 have because it has allowed us to tell this story 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:36.040 in an unvarnished way, and the human elements, the human interest, 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:40.879 are really important. I feel that those elements are almost 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:45.040 as important as the hard evidence of what happened, when, 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:48.840 how and why. It's all part of that piece that 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:51.360 makes people want to keep listening, and if they keep 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:53.480 listening as a chance that they'll share it with someone 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.480 who knows something and contacts us. If we make a 0:25:56.520 --> 0:26:01.240 really boring podcast that sticks only to the black and 0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:05.639