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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian.

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Speaker 2: I'm Claire Harvey from The Australian. I'm the editorial director

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Speaker 2: and I host our daily news podcast, The Front. It's

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Speaker 2: been a year since Headley Thomas started visiting Lennox head

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Speaker 2: in the investigation for this podcast. Bromwyn Subscribers to The

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Speaker 2: Australian get all our episodes first a special way to

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Speaker 2: thank them and all of our listeners. From time to

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Speaker 2: time we hold special live events where we invite the

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Speaker 2: audience to come along to meet the team, share a

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Speaker 2: drink and some refreshments. It's a chance to reflect on

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Speaker 2: how far we've come, to meet the listeners who make

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Speaker 2: it all possible, and to answer their questions. This episode

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Speaker 2: of Bromwyn It's episode twenty four in this our third season,

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Speaker 2: is a recording from a live event we held in

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Speaker 2: Sydney on February twenty seven, twenty twenty five, featuring Headley,

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Speaker 2: me National Crime correspondent David Murray, Senior writer Matthew Condon,

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Speaker 2: and Bromwin's cousin Mattie Walsh, who's become an invaluable part

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Speaker 2: of our podcast team. You'll hear some laughs as we

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Speaker 2: gently rib one another, and some serious and heartfelt moments too.

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Speaker 2: We reflect on the thoughtful, intelligent woman Bromwin was and

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Speaker 2: on the arrival in this story of characters we didn't expect,

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Speaker 2: including former nurse Judy Singh, John Winfield's secret daughter Sonia Lee,

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Speaker 2: and John's late neighbor Beverly Brooker. We'll discuss the mystery

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Speaker 2: of how John became the beneficiary of Beverly's significant estate

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Speaker 2: and Andy Reid's please to police and the coroner to

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Speaker 2: act on the nearly thirty two year old disappearance of

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Speaker 2: his sister Bromwin. We'll hear Hedley and Dave Murray reflect

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Speaker 2: on exactly where the new South Wales Police investigation is going.

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Speaker 2: On the night, we had a chance to thank our

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Speaker 2: wonderful team, including producers Slade Gibson, Kristin Amiot, Leat, Sammaglou

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Speaker 2: and Stephanie Comes, and our events guru Jason Hamilton and

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Speaker 2: his team in the audience. We're our colleagues Leah Mendez

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Speaker 2: and Bianca far Marcus, plus many more, and as Hedley says,

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Speaker 2: we're blessed with an amazing crew who are also our friends.

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Speaker 2: Good evening everyone. My name is Michelle Gunn.

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Speaker 3: I'm editor in chief of The Australian and it is

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Speaker 3: my absolute pleasure to be here and to welcome you

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Speaker 3: all here tonight. Podcasts are a very, very and port

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Speaker 3: part of what we do at The Australian. There's such

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Speaker 3: a powerful medium for storytelling, including hard hitting investigations such

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Speaker 3: as Bromwyn and The Teacher's Pet. The special source of

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Speaker 3: The Australian's podcasts is journalistic integrity and instinct.

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Speaker 2: These guys have it in spades.

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Speaker 3: It's an unwavering commitment to uncover the truth and a

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Speaker 3: strong desire, a very strong desire to make a difference.

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Speaker 3: And that is what our newspaper is all about. That

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Speaker 3: storytelling kind of brings our journalism to life. It's wonderful

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Speaker 3: to see so many of you here tonight. The story

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Speaker 3: of Bromwyn Winfield is beginning to captivate the nation. Eight

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Speaker 3: hundred thousand people listen to the very first episode alone.

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Speaker 3: There are so many people who want to get Behindhead

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Speaker 3: and Bromwin's family who are here tonight in their quest

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Speaker 3: for justice. We've seen Headley do this before. He's not

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Speaker 3: someone to be underestimated. So I'm looking very much forward

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Speaker 3: to joining you in listening to tonight's conversation. Before I go,

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Speaker 3: I'd just like to finally thank Katie Page and Jerry Harvey,

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Speaker 3: who are here tonight. They have been such wonderful and

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Speaker 3: steadfast supporters of The Australian and of Headley's journalism. We

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Speaker 3: are so very grateful for your belief and support in

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Speaker 3: our journalism and what we do. Thank you everybody, and.

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Speaker 2: I'll hand over to claiv Thanks Michelle. You guys are

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Speaker 2: the most important people. None of this matters at all

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Speaker 2: if nobody listens. And more than seven point four million

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Speaker 2: downloads of Bronwin have happened so far, that's because I've

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Speaker 2: been in part Australians really do care about stories about

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Speaker 2: missing women. In fact, The Australian, through the work of

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Speaker 2: journalists like Hedley and Dave and Matt, we've been covering

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Speaker 2: issues of violence against women in the most important way

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Speaker 2: for a really long time. So I'm going to start

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Speaker 2: with a bit of a serious question Headley and Dave,

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Speaker 2: this is a really hard issue to cover, violence against

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Speaker 2: women is as we often so often hear a really

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Speaker 2: serious problem in Australia and throughout the world. Did you

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Speaker 2: think when you stepped a toe into this new medium

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Speaker 2: of podcasting that it would be this issue that would

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Speaker 2: engage you the most.

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Speaker 1: I understood when I first started looking at the murder

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Speaker 1: of Lynn, that underlying that case was the most horrendous

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Speaker 1: example of a failure of the criminal justice system, of community,

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Speaker 1: of an education, department, of police, of prosecution service, and

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Speaker 1: all of those things added up to a failure to

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Speaker 1: properly deal with a violent crime against a female Linn.

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Speaker 1: But out of that has just blossomed the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: do all of these cases that we can that are

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Speaker 1: similarly needful. We couldn't have designed it this way. It's

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Speaker 1: just happened naturally and organically through goodwill of listeners, the

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Speaker 1: good will of people who have come forward to help

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Speaker 1: me and offer special expertise, some of whom are in

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Speaker 1: the audience tonight. People have been united and wanting to

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Speaker 1: make a difference in this area.

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Speaker 2: Dave, you're one of Australia's most experienced crime reporters. Throughout

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Speaker 2: your body of work as a journalist and particularly in

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Speaker 2: your work in audio, you've covered violence against women. How

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Speaker 2: do you think Australians have changed the way they perceived

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Speaker 2: this issue over the years that you've been reporting.

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Speaker 4: I've been reporting on violence against women in one form

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Speaker 4: or another for my entire career, you know, going back

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Speaker 4: to the nineties when I first started out as a journalist,

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Speaker 4: cases of women going missing and their family seeking answers.

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Speaker 4: Of course, now there's all these other platforms to tell

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Speaker 4: these stories and then more detail. But we've been striving

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Speaker 4: to tell these stories for some time and talking about

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Speaker 4: changing attitudes. I mean, you look at Lyn Dawson and

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Speaker 4: you look at now know as Lynn Simms at the

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Speaker 4: request of a family, You look at Bromwyn and you wonder, well,

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Speaker 4: how many other women out there went missing and were

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Speaker 4: just treated runaways? They weren't investigated properly at the time,

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Speaker 4: and then you know, many years later, the investigators to

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Speaker 4: pick up those cases, have to pick up the pieces

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Speaker 4: and they just in some cases, you know, then languish

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Speaker 4: for years and years and years. So you know, fortunately,

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Speaker 4: now you know these cases, you know, we've got a

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Speaker 4: medium to look at them in incredible debt through podcasts, and.

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Speaker 2: You know that's why Headley's work has been so incredible.

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Speaker 2: Matt is a national treasure. He's an acclaimed author. He

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Speaker 2: has some brilliant podcasts of his own, which I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to mention because they were published by the ABC.

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Speaker 2: But he's also the creator and host of the next

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Speaker 2: true crime podcast will be publishing, so that one is

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Speaker 2: coming soon. Matt is such a beautiful writer and such

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Speaker 2: a beautiful speaker, and so Matt, no pressure, but I

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Speaker 2: wanted to talk about Bromwin. She is, of course the

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Speaker 2: subject of this podcast. Matt, I asked you to write

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Speaker 2: the feature that we would publish to kind of kick

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Speaker 2: off this story in the paper, and you dug through

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Speaker 2: Bromwin's writings. What sort of person emerged in those diaries

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Speaker 2: and letters that you read?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, cir I. Just before I answered that,

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Speaker 5: I just wanted to share a thought I had sitting

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Speaker 5: there watching you and listening to the audience. In terms

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Speaker 5: of the journalism that we do. We get incredible support

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Speaker 5: obviously from Michelle and The Australian and our sponsors Katie Page,

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Speaker 5: Harvey Norman, but listening to the audience humming as different

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Speaker 5: questions were coming up, it's a very unique experience in journalism.

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Speaker 5: To have this incredible support base of tens of thousands

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Speaker 5: of people you've never met, and to know that you're

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Speaker 5: there and you have the teams back, it's very special.

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Speaker 5: So I just wanted to share that firstly with you

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Speaker 5: before I lost my train of thought. But my first

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Speaker 5: introduction to Bronwyn was her writing, and I read it

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Speaker 5: very carefully, and I read it over and over, and

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Speaker 5: it was very poignant and very touching, and I tried

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Speaker 5: to find the woman behind the words. These peripheral judgments

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Speaker 5: may be wrong Andy her brother, but I sensed a

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Speaker 5: very loving human being, a very dedicated mother. I sensed

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Speaker 5: a woman who was trying to make the most of

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Speaker 5: a very difficult personal situation. I got the sense that

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Speaker 5: she was psychologically and physically in a vice, and that

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Speaker 5: she was trying to express herself.

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Speaker 6: When we moved to Lennox Head, I was even more lonely.

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Speaker 6: The house that was built became John's castle in my prison.

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Speaker 6: My children have suffered from the environment that surrounded them.

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Speaker 6: I was surrounded by hate and abuse in various ways

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Speaker 6: as a child, and am determined not to allow this

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Speaker 6: to happen to my girls or myself. Ever again. No

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Speaker 6: one will ever intimidate me again, nor will I allow

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Speaker 6: anyone to force their opinions onto me, as this can

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Speaker 6: cause damage to myself as well as my children.

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Speaker 5: And at the end of those writings, she's very positive

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Speaker 5: and she says, I'm looking forward. I'm going to move

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Speaker 5: forward positively with this. So I saw a woman who

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Speaker 5: had an enormous amount to give, but it was falling

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Speaker 5: on fallow ground, and she was in a very awkward scenario.

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Speaker 2: She wrote beautifully, didn't she She did?

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Speaker 5: She did write beautifully. She wrote, to my mind, very honestly.

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Speaker 5: She didn't hold back in terms of her emotions, which

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Speaker 5: was another for me, a key insight into the sort

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Speaker 5: of person that she would have been. To my mind,

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Speaker 5: I would have loved to have met her, you know,

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Speaker 5: just one of those straight up people, a lot of

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Speaker 5: love to give, but was in a despicable situation near

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Speaker 5: the end that she was trying to find a way

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Speaker 5: out of. And the writing reflects that she's trying to

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Speaker 5: keep it together and.

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Speaker 7: Move forward in a positive way.

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Speaker 2: Helly, get into the big question first, why do you

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Speaker 2: think when twenty years ago the police went to the coroner.

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Speaker 2: The coroner went to the DVP, no charge was laid.

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Speaker 1: The coroner recommended a murder charge. The decision was made

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Speaker 1: I think, initially in a regional office in northern New

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Speaker 1: South Wales, that there would be no prosecution. And it

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Speaker 1: seems at first blush unfathomable, why after so much work,

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Speaker 1: with such a compelling, circumstantial case, wouldn't you put it

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Speaker 1: before a jury. It's not to say that the accused

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Speaker 1: is guilty, just that there should be a determination. And

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Speaker 1: I've thought about this deeply over the years since I've

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Speaker 1: heard about Bromin's case, and since I've been talking to Andy,

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Speaker 1: read and reading the evidence, and all I can come

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Speaker 1: up with is a human error. I believe that the system,

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Speaker 1: clearly and quite obviously, in this case and in others

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Speaker 1: that I've been involved in, fails to grasp what most

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Speaker 1: people who can step back and look at all of

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Speaker 1: the evidence can see. That there is a strong prema

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Speaker 1: face case and that as the coroner, a very experienced

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Speaker 1: judicial officer, recommended, it should have been prosecuted. And the

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Speaker 1: coroner doesn't make a decision like that lightly. He has

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Speaker 1: to satisfy under the Coroner's Act a certain test, that

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Speaker 1: is that in his view, a jury would be likely

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Speaker 1: to find beyond reasonable doubt that the known person would

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Speaker 1: be found guilty. And that's an important bar. It's not

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Speaker 1: a balance of probabilities test. It's a strict legal test

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Speaker 1: at the higher level. So it's our job in journalism

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Speaker 1: and with these podcasts to try to re ignite these cases,

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Speaker 1: to refresh them because the families don't have anyone else.

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Speaker 1: After the police have tried and failed or the DPPs

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Speaker 1: said well we're not going to take this forward, the

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Speaker 1: families then go back and say, well, where do we

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Speaker 1: go from here? And I think that police, even cold

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Speaker 1: case teams, unsolved homicide units, which are a more recent innovation,

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Speaker 1: they struggled because they've got limited resources and a huge

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Speaker 1: number of these cases that didn't go forward, or cases

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Speaker 1: that didn't even get to the stage of a brief

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Speaker 1: of evidence. And so we have the opportunity, with the

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Speaker 1: resources that the Australian makes available, with the goodwill of

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Speaker 1: the listenership and the help of people who want to

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Speaker 1: volunteer their time, we have the opportunity to make a

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Speaker 1: difference and find new evidence, new witnesses, people like Judy

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Speaker 1: Singh who came forward and who many people heard in

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Speaker 1: episode seven of the podcast. I mean that should have

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Speaker 1: been a game changer in my view. Right there, this

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Speaker 1: woman who said that she saw the Winfield family car

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Speaker 1: and Bromwin's estranged husband driving it with what appeared to

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Speaker 1: be a body wrapped in sheets in the vehicle late

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Speaker 1: at night, the night that Brombin disappeared. Now that's an

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Speaker 1: eye witness who's come forward with that evidence, and we

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Speaker 1: filmed her and tested her. And there was even another

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Speaker 1: witness who said she didn't see anything that night. She

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Speaker 1: wasn't there that night, but she had contact with Judy

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Speaker 1: who had clearly over the years been up said about

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Speaker 1: this and having the burden of this information and seeing

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Speaker 1: nothing done about it, all we can promise Andy and

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Speaker 1: Michelle and Caitlin and all of the Reed family is

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Speaker 1: that we'll keep trying. We'll keep trying to find new evidence.

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Speaker 1: And it's not our job to directly pressure the DPP

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Speaker 1: or the police. They have to do their job independently.

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Speaker 1: But we believe that with the weight of the evidence

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Speaker 1: that comes out, we hope that it gets to a

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Speaker 1: tipping point where skilled prosecutors say, well, this is more

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Speaker 1: than enough, we can make something of this.

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Speaker 2: Dave, what do you think the delay in this case

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Speaker 2: has done to it? You know, the fact that charges

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Speaker 2: were not laid in two and two when the coroner

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Speaker 2: recommended that they should be, and of course John Winfield

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Speaker 2: denies any wrongdoing and that that is yet to be

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Speaker 2: tested in any kind of court. We've seen a significant

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Speaker 2: delay there. In a very separate matter, Chris Dawson is

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Speaker 2: still pursuing his right to appeal. He's now telling the

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Speaker 2: High Court that because of delays and what is called

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Speaker 2: forensic disadvantage in the legal system, he can't get a

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Speaker 2: fair trial. He couldn't get a fair trial because police

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Speaker 2: delayed for so long. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, we're eagerly awaiting that decision of Chris Dawson's appeal.

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Speaker 4: I know that delay was cited in the letter that

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Speaker 4: Nicholas cardre the DPP way back at the time of

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Speaker 4: the inquest when he wrote to Andy Reid. You know,

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Speaker 4: he from memory cited the delay and the initial investigation

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Speaker 4: before he was taken up and investigated really thoroughly for

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Speaker 4: the first time.

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Speaker 8: The disappearance of your sister Bronwin Winfield in May nineteen

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Speaker 8: ninety three has no doubt caused much grief to you

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Speaker 8: and your family, and I offer my sympathies. My advice

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Speaker 8: to police in the coroner, after very careful consideration of

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Speaker 8: all the evidence presently available, is that there is not

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Speaker 8: sufficient evidence to charge Jonathan in Winfield or any other person.

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Speaker 8: Bronwin's disappearance was not reported to the police for two

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Speaker 8: weeks and was initially treated as a missing person inquiry.

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Speaker 8: By the time it was dealt with as a possible homicide,

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Speaker 8: years had passed and any potential scientific evidence was long gone.

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Speaker 8: There is nobody and no known cause of death. While

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Speaker 8: Jonathan Winfield is the last known person to have seen

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Speaker 8: her alive, there is no evidence that he killed her

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Speaker 8: or had any role in her disappearance. Suspicion cannot be

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Speaker 8: substitution for evidence.

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Speaker 4: That was twenty plus years ago, so we're further down

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Speaker 4: the track. I think we've seen that these cases still

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Speaker 4: are solvable, even though there is a delay. It might

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Speaker 4: be a barrier, but it doesn't mean that they can't

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Speaker 4: be solved. It was solved in Linn's case. It was

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Speaker 4: solved in other cases that come to mind where women

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Speaker 4: went missinging as far back as the nineteen seventies. In

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Speaker 4: one case in South Australia, Colleen Adam, she was found

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Speaker 4: buried under concrete in the family property. So these cases

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Speaker 4: cant will be solved even though they resided delay.

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Speaker 2: Now, Headley, when you started this investigation, we had our

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Speaker 2: usual conversation where I say, you know, tell me about

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Speaker 2: the case, and you say, I think it can be solved.

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Speaker 2: It's really exciting. And then you say, I think it's

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Speaker 2: going to be six or seven episodes. We'll have it

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Speaker 2: done by March. So what went wrong?

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Speaker 1: Did I say six or seven episodes or seasons? You

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Speaker 1: keep finding new information and if we set a rigid

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Speaker 1: finished date or episode number, then how would we accommodate

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Speaker 1: all of the people with more information and unpack this

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Speaker 1: extraordinary case in the sort of detail that it deserves.

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Speaker 1: And I feel that while we still have the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: support of the listenership and of the Australian and Andy

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Speaker 1: and Michelle and Maddie, who's still helping me wherever I ask,

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Speaker 1: she's been amazing, we've got more to do and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get to a point where I say, well,

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Speaker 1: we should have done this and we should have done that.

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Speaker 1: But we were running out of time, we decided to

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Speaker 1: end it there. No, we keep going until every stone

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Speaker 1: and every newstone gets overturned, and that is my pledge

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Speaker 1: to the family and to the listenership. For some people,

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Speaker 1: the podcasts that we do, that I do particularly, are

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Speaker 1: just too detailed. There's too much information, that's too many people.

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Speaker 1: And I have a friend who says, man, I've got

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Speaker 1: a whiteboard in my garage and all the names. He said,

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in one of those true crime

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Speaker 1: dramas because stuff around. But he said I needed to

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Speaker 1: do that to work out all the different family connections.

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Speaker 1: He said, I got to know everybody you know, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like they've become part of my daily kind

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Speaker 1: of routine. Where he was thinking, I wonder how Andy

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Speaker 1: is today, and I wonder what Mattie's going to say next,

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Speaker 1: which is what I wonder sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Matte is definitely the breakout star of the podcast I

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Speaker 2: Eat It, Yeah, Dave, There were twists in this story

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Speaker 2: that we could not possibly have seen coming. At the beginning,

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Speaker 2: Judy seeing the former nurse who described seeing what she

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Speaker 2: thought was a body wrapped in sheets driving past her

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Speaker 2: window in a car driven she says by John Winfield.

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Speaker 9: I saw the car pull out at the end of

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Speaker 9: the street and the light was on in the car.

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Speaker 9: There's very squeaky brakes on that car, and he drove

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Speaker 9: very slowly along the street, but he had left the

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Speaker 9: car light on and I could see directly into the car,

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Speaker 9: and I had a small lantern on the balcony rail

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Speaker 9: and he kind of looked up this night and I

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Speaker 9: saw this what looked to be like a mummy in

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Speaker 9: the back of the car, and I thought, well, if

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Speaker 9: he was taking out belonging, you wouldn't make it look

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Speaker 9: like a body.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? So when you say

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Speaker 1: a mummy, it was wrapped in something.

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Speaker 10: Yes, it was either very pale green or cream, not white,

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Speaker 10: but maybe like a bed sheet or something like that.

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Speaker 10: And I wanted the police to know that because I

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Speaker 10: thought the pressure of that, the weight of that on

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Speaker 10: the door might have been what was keeping the light on.

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Speaker 2: You were involved in testing that theory and with the

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Speaker 2: hardest part of which was obtaining an original which at

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Speaker 2: Headley was absolutely insistent on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah it was a Ford XS nine eighty seven sedan,

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Speaker 4: and absolutely insistent on getting it that day pretty much.

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Speaker 2: So Dave and I joined about forty Facebook groups. I'm

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Speaker 2: still getting friend requests from Ford xf fans on Facebook

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Speaker 2: to try and track one down.

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Speaker 4: I remember sitting on the sidelines watching one of my

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Speaker 4: sons played football, or trying to watch, while I was

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Speaker 4: madly joining Facebook groups, sending messages to people responding to

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Speaker 4: ads selling these except Sedan's calling up car groups and

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Speaker 4: ridiculously that day got onto an incredible couple out at Ipswich.

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Speaker 4: He responded yet very quickly and basically said yeah, come

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Speaker 4: come out tomorrow. And we needed to do it that

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Speaker 4: quick because we needed to get people down from Sydney.

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Speaker 4: We needed to go out and film this in time

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Speaker 4: for the episode, which was that week.

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Speaker 2: So Healy's initial request, by the way, was for us

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Speaker 2: to buy this.

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Speaker 1: Car the family, nice young couple who allowed us to

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Speaker 1: use their car for the day, and put one of

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Speaker 1: our colleagues Bianca. Where is Bianca, She's here. We wrapped

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Speaker 1: the anchor up in one of the one of those

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Speaker 1: sheets from home. Ruth said, oh, I take this one,

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Speaker 1: and so bianchor was on the ground being rolled over

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Speaker 1: in this sheet. But I felt that that was so amazing.

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Speaker 1: It just showed the team effort and we don't have

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Speaker 1: a full time staff team. We have lots of people

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Speaker 1: who come and help at at integral moments and they

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Speaker 1: help enormously, and so Claire and Dave and others, you know,

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Speaker 1: bi Anchor, they just all pitch in and we have

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Speaker 1: a you know, it's a serious business and we're talking

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Speaker 1: about dramatic and often really distressing stories and angles, but

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Speaker 1: we come together and work professionally and everyone gets on

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Speaker 1: really well. There haven't been a couple of tense moments,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I still feel really bad about getting

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Speaker 1: cross last year with someone, sorry Bianchor, but you know, we've.

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Speaker 2: Had I've become really worried about hix Plane, having repped

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Speaker 2: her in sheets with.

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Speaker 1: Stress levels are going through the roof. It also makes

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Speaker 1: a huge difference when you're working with and having contact

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Speaker 1: with people like Andy and Michelle. You know, they're just

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Speaker 1: such down to earth, decent, cooperative people who have supported

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Speaker 1: what we've done. They haven't always agreed with some of

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Speaker 1: the angles that have been addressed, and I understand that

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Speaker 1: they're raw. They're very sensitive issues. Who wants to have

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Speaker 1: family tensions broadcast to the world, But you know, they've

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Speaker 1: been up for everything, and I'm incredibly grateful that they

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Speaker 1: have because it has allowed us to tell this story

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Speaker 1: in an unvarnished way, and the human elements, the human interest,

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Speaker 1: are really important. I feel that those elements are almost

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Speaker 1: as important as the hard evidence of what happened, when,

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Speaker 1: how and why. It's all part of that piece that

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Speaker 1: makes people want to keep listening, and if they keep

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Speaker 1: listening as a chance that they'll share it with someone

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Speaker 1: who knows something and contacts us. If we make a

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Speaker 1: really boring podcast that sticks only to the black and

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Speaker 1: white evidence and doesn't develop the human interest, then I

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Speaker 1: think we risk failing to solve the crime because that

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Speaker 1: kind of storytelling is not going to engage an audience

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Speaker 1: and is not going to draw from the audience that

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Speaker 1: person who has that little bit of evidence that could

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Speaker 1: grow and make a massive difference.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 2: A perfect example of that is the story of Sonia Lee,

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Speaker 2: who emerged from of all places, the Facebook group that

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Speaker 2: we run. I'm sure you guys are all members of

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Speaker 2: the Facebook group. It routinely gives me and the dedicated

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Speaker 2: Christen Amiot a stroke dealing with the highly problematic and

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Speaker 2: defamatory comments that you guys will want to post in there. Dave,

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Speaker 2: could you have imagined that the long lost daughter of

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Speaker 2: John Winfield would come forward one.

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Speaker 4: Of the stories you just did not see coming out

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Speaker 4: of this. And the thing I remember her saying was

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Speaker 4: that I just want John's daughters just to.

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Speaker 1: Know this story.

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Speaker 4: I know what happened, so that they can have the

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Speaker 4: full story, and then they can be more informed in

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Speaker 4: making up their mine's about what might have happened, what

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Speaker 4: might not have happened.

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Speaker 11: He'll never be my dad, He'll never be my father,

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Speaker 11: will never be mates, We'll never sit down and have

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Speaker 11: a copper together. I will never break bread with him,

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Speaker 11: purely because my grandmother would be disgusted in me if

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Speaker 11: I did.

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Speaker 2: And then the story of Beverly Brooker.

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Speaker 1: We first heard about BEV when we were in Lenox

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Speaker 1: attempting to search Lake Ayneswerth, and there were some locals

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Speaker 1: who were just making furtive approaches to Andy and I

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Speaker 1: and one in particular mentioned Brooker and how this woman,

434
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: an elderly woman who became very sick, had died, and

435
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: it sounded like something that we needed to delve into deeply.

436
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: But there was so much work ahead of us, and

437
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: that weekend at Lenox was really full. We were trying

438
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: to comb a lake because of suspicion that Murray had

439
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: and others had that possibly Bromin was put into the lake.

440
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: I resolved that we would find out as much as

441
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: we could try and contact Bev's brothers and talk to them,

442
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: and we did that, and Maddie and I interviewed after

443
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: some time Jeff Brooker, and Jeff told us his story

444
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: and Jeff, is this just sold of the earth guy

445
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: who talked about how his sister became really sick. He

446
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: felt isolated during her final days, isolated by John Winfield,

447
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: whod suddenly presented himself as her care her guardian, the

448
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: person in charge on pretty much everything that was going

449
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: on in Bev's life, including the funeral. And then Jeff

450
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: talked about the exclusionary tactics that were deployed at the funeral,

451
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: where Jeff's family, Bev's relations were not welcomed. There are

452
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: only eight people there and that was at John's direction.

453
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: He said, this is what beb would have wanted. But

454
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: Jeff new his sister better than anyone, and he said,

455
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 1: that's not right. How was the funeral conducted? What happened?

456
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 12: I mean, my brother asked can we help arrange things

457
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 12: in the funeral? And he said, no, there's no need.

458
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 12: Everything's sorted out. He's got it all under control. And

459
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 12: I said, well, can we help with the flowers? Can

460
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 12: we do the flower No, no need to touch the flowers.

461
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 12: No one was allowed to.

462
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: Come to the funeral.

463
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 12: A couple of the people that did attend the funeral

464
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 12: he didn't want them there. He was very upset about

465
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 12: them being there. He reckons it was all my sister's

466
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 12: requests that it was kept private, which is very strange

467
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 12: because Beverley wasn't like that. She had a lot of

468
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 12: close friends and work colleagues and she would have been happy.

469
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: To know that they were there.

470
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 12: At in service, he took control of everything, and there

471
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 12: was a slide show of my sister's life, and he

472
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 12: did not have one plato of himself in that slide show.

473
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: We thought, gosh, this is quite remarkable and we need

474
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: to know more and more about this, and so we

475
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: finally got hold of Bev's wills, and it turned out

476
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: that Bev's wills had changed quite fundamentally six months before

477
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: Bev died, and John became almost the sole beneficiary of

478
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,959
Speaker 1: this multimillion dollar estate. He's a total blow in.

479
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 12: We never met him and didn't know anything about him,

480
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 12: and it was a real surprise and shop I think

481
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 12: that he would inherit everything that my sister owned a Birshley.

482
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: And Bev's cousin was all but cut out. She received

483
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: an amount that was a fraction of what she would

484
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: have received and then she wasn't even contacted about the money.

485
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: John was the executor of the world. So there was

486
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: all of this going on. This is so different to

487
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: what we started with. It's got nothing to do with

488
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: bromwyn Winfield. You know, should we be even going there?

489
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: Like what is it relevant to this important murder investigation

490
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: that we're doing. But the answer is it is important

491
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: and it is part of the case because it goes,

492
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: in my view, to character and it goes to the

493
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: alleged manipulation and the influence and the propensity to be

494
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: obsessive about money assets at a very valuable house and

495
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: Bev had that and as most listeners know, bromwin had

496
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: that too. Was Roman referred to as John's castle. He

497
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: did not want to lose his castle and he would

498
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: she you fight her to keep it. So we've unpacked that,

499
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: and there'll be more about BEV in coming episodes. But

500
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: these are the tangents that you have with the case

501
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: like this, where they develop momentum. People want us to

502
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: know information that we had no inkling of when we started.

503
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: Dave, you are I don't want to embarrass you, but

504
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: you are the most ethical and gentle and thoughtful journalists

505
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: I think I've ever worked with a far from heavily.

506
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: Of course, Dave is a pure gentleman, but I did

507
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: have a moment of just delight within this episode listening

508
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: to something that all journalists have gone through. When Dave

509
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: rang one of Bev's brothers, and he wouldn't have a

510
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: bar of you would.

511
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: He He is very wary that I was working with

512
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: John Winfield, and so he asked me that directly. So

513
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: I had to come up with a plan, and Jeff

514
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 4: Is made it clear he doesn't use technology very much,

515
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 4: because I was saying, oh, can I send you an

516
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 4: email from my work email address.

517
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 5: Anyway, we end up coming up with something suitable.

518
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 4: I got Headley to text him and just verify that

519
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 4: he was allowed to speak to it. He's dealing with

520
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 4: a lot, even you know him and his brother Paul.

521
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 4: They have just been devastated by the events around their

522
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: sister's death. And Jeff said to me, look, I'm just

523
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 4: glad that this is all out there now and just

524
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 4: want people to know this information.

525
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: But Dave, this led us down yet another path that

526
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: we couldn't have expected. Not only were we exploring this

527
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: story of Bev and her final year, but then we

528
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: were exploring the pain of her family, very sensitive questions

529
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 2: of their relationship with their sister, the fact that they

530
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: had lost contact with her, a little a cousin who

531
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: had also lost contact but who had a deep love

532
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: for Bev. This is part of crime reporting, isn't It's

533
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: probably the main thing digging into these very private, painful things.

534
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: It is.

535
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 4: And you know, fortunately in this case, this is something

536
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 4: that they did want out there, they did want to discussed.

537
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 13: You know.

538
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 4: It's just kind of like an open wound for their

539
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 4: family and just being kind of completely unsettled. It's prompted us,

540
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 4: when in doubt, to go and find out a bit

541
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 4: more about wills and what are the rules around those wills,

542
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 4: And you know, an experts have told us, Look, the

543
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: other beneficiary should have been told by John Winfield, for

544
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 4: instance that they were a beneficiary much sooner than they

545
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 4: were and also confirmed that is appealable. You know, if

546
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 4: there's cousin Kathy wants to appeal that that's an option. Now,

547
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 4: these are deeply personal stories, but you can also help

548
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: people potentially towards a resolution.

549
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: So we're going to have a few minutes of questions. Now,

550
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: I just want to were the police in all of this.

551
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 14: We find it very frustrating that all this evidence is

552
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 14: coming out and yet there's only just in the last

553
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 14: episode there was a little mention of the police looking

554
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 14: into something, but apart from that, the police seemed to

555
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 14: be not there.

556
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: That's my question.

557
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: Thank you. The police, who had been doing a big

558
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: review of Bromin's case told Andy in i think early

559
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: May last year that following their review, they didn't believe

560
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: that they could take this case any further, that they'd

561
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 1: been knocked back by the DPP before, and that they'd

562
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: run out of leeds and angles and evidence. Now what's

563
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: happened as a result of the podcast is more leads

564
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: and angles and evidence and witnesses have come to light,

565
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: and as a result, the police have been doing more work.

566
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: They've taken a statement from Judy seeing they've taken a

567
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: statement from other people that the police didn't know about.

568
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: And that is as it should be. That's great. What

569
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: is a bit frustrating is, and I'll speak briefly for

570
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 1: Andy here, because I think I know from everything he's

571
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 1: told me, he feels that he is the last person

572
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: to know anything that's going on. The police won't share

573
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: with us or anyone else in the podcast team what

574
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: they're doing, and I totally understand that they don't need to.

575
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: They would have serious trust issues that it would end

576
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: up in episode twenty four, and so that's absolutely fine.

577
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: But I think that there's got to be a balance

578
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: struck between them being able to do their job effectively

579
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: and us being able to do our job independently. But

580
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: they're being a better way for them to jump onto

581
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: evidence that could make a difference. They can always ask

582
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: at the first opportunity for anything that they believe could

583
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: help their investigation. They only have to pick up the phone,

584
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: and it's that easy. You know, we don't want to

585
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: be obstructive. We wouldn't be. We would share with them

586
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: a contact detail, an audio file, as long as we're

587
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: not breaching any confidentiality. With a secret source or confidential informant.

588
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: It's not a problem. I have done that in the

589
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: Teacher's Pet investigation with the detective from the unsold homicide unit.

590
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: But in this investigation, it's just struck me that there

591
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: has been a very deep reluctance of police to be

592
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: as proactive in going after the relevant and I believe

593
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: important information. And that's really disappointing for everybody who wants

594
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: to see a result here. And I know it's incredibly

595
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: disappointing for Andy and Michelle because they know how sometimes

596
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: this information is just coming up out of the blue,

597
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 1: and how willing we are to share it.

598
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: I just had today.

599
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 4: I caught up with Andy yesterday for a new story

600
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 4: for the paper, and he reminded me of what the

601
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 4: former New so Wells Police Commissioner Mick Fuller said after

602
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 4: the Teacher's Patty said, and this is when Chrystalson had

603
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 4: been convicted, he said, this is the most powerful investigative

604
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 4: tool I've ever seen for an experienced policeman like that

605
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: to say that things are still pretty new for police

606
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 4: back then. But we're now at a stage with these

607
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 4: podcast investigations that I think police should be you know

608
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 4: what to do now.

609
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 1: They should have a plan.

610
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: It should be on the front foot, and they should

611
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 4: see it as an opportunity because it's not something they

612
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 4: can stop.

613
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 1: It's beyond their control.

614
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 4: And they should be ready to get all the evidence

615
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 4: that they can because I'll never get a better opportunity

616
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 4: to get new evidence. Then if it's taken up on

617
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 4: a global platform.

618
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: Like that, they've taken the caution to an extreme level.

619
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: There won't be a collusion. We're not going to cause

620
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: the police to breach any ethics they have, and I'm

621
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: not going to breach any confidences. But I think in

622
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: their determination to try to not put a foot wrong

623
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: and not have a judge castigating them in the event

624
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: of there being some proceeding at a later date, they've

625
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: become so cautious in dealing and asking for information from

626
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: us that I think it has become probably a detriment

627
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: to their own investigation.

628
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 15: What brings you here this cping, Well, I'm a big

629
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 15: fan of the podcast.

630
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 2: Our friend and colleague producers Stephanie Coombs, was roaming the crowd,

631
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: meeting the listeners who'd come out on this warm Sydney

632
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: late summer evening and What is it about true crime

633
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: that you're enjoyed in solving puzzles.

634
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 3: I'm actually an investigator for work, so yeah, I like

635
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: the puzzle.

636
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: The riddle needs to be solved true Oh you're a

637
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 2: bit of a heavy fan.

638
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 16: I am, and I'm one of the voiceovers that appears

639
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 16: in episode twenty one, particularly these ones that are about women,

640
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 16: women's stories, looking after other women and how unfair the

641
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 16: justice system is and finally someone gets to tell the

642
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 16: truth and see the truth that it's a nice way

643
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 16: to change the law and the way of being.

644
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 17: I love how deep they go on all the information

645
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 17: and no question is left unanswered. So I really enjoy

646
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 17: sitting at home or doing all my work with the

647
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 17: kids around and having one AirPod in listening to what's

648
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 17: going on and knowing that Edley or whoever it is

649
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 17: doing the research is going to get to the next

650
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 17: point that was a question already in my mind, so

651
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 17: nothing left unanswered.

652
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 18: I listened to the podcast fanatically. I think I got

653
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 18: drawn into it by Headley and how he gives all

654
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 18: the detail in all the podcasts Teachers Pat. I was

655
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 18: hooked on and amazing outcome, and I believed him all

656
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,720
Speaker 18: the way and everything he presented, and I just started

657
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 18: out of interest with Headley.

658
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 2: I think he presents incredibly.

659
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 18: My husband is bizarre that I'm coming, but I'm just interested.

660
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 18: And also he's helping other people by getting an outcome.

661
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 18: I think it's also the context, like women disappearing and

662
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 18: everyone sweeps under the carpet and it's just horrendous and

663
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 18: blaming them other.

664
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 2: What is it about true crime that you find interesting?

665
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 19: Just the fact that it's real, and I mean, especially

666
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 19: in this case, the fact that it's a real story

667
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 19: that can be solved, and it's just so clever the

668
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 19: way he's piecing together so much complicated little facts and

669
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 19: details into such a to be a timeline. And yeah,

670
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 19: that's why I here. This one's the one I most

671
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 19: look forward to. I'm always eagerly looking at my up

672
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 19: to see if a new episode's being released.

673
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: Welcome back, all right, now joining me on stage once again,

674
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: of course, he saidly Thomas. Next to him is Maddie Walsh,

675
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: bromwyn Winfield's cousin and an invaluable member of the team

676
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: on this podcast. I don't think any of us expected

677
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,959
Speaker 2: that we'd be working with a brilliant young person who

678
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: has helped us so much. I don't think you expect

679
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: about either, Maddie. No, not at all, not at all.

680
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: And next to Maddie is Matthew Condon. One of the

681
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,959
Speaker 2: things I love about this kind of storytelling is how

682
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 2: it helps us look beyond what we might think about people.

683
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: You know, this is someone who was working in the

684
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 2: local takeaway shop. You know she was a young mum

685
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: dealing with all the pressures of time that young mums

686
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 2: are dealing with, and yet she had this deep, soulful

687
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 2: outpouring of very intelligent thinking. Maddie in your family's life

688
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: and you're growing up. What did you know about Bromwin.

689
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 15: Despite never meeting her. I knew that she had the

690
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 15: biggest heart. She cared for everyone around her no matter what,

691
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 15: and her devotion to her kids was like none other.

692
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 15: She would have never left her kids, and she loved

693
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 15: everyone around her. She was positive, happy, and just a

694
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 15: really kind soul.

695
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: What have you thought as you've discovered more about her

696
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: as time has gone on, and the kind of situation

697
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 2: she was in, because she's closer to your age than

698
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: she is to our age.

699
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 15: Really yeah, Look, she just wanted to make a great

700
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 15: life for her kids. You can tell that through her writing,

701
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 15: so you can tell that through you know, her relationships

702
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 15: with her family. And it's really kind of confronting to

703
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 15: realize that she was close in age to me and

704
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 15: she was going through something that was normalized back then.

705
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 15: It was you were told, you know, just to suck

706
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 15: it up and keep going.

707
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 2: And to know that when now I'm.

708
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 15: This situation thirty one years later, it is so hard

709
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 15: to fat them because there are still so many people

710
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 15: in that kind of situation.

711
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: You're seeing your friends, you know, having their first big,

712
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: serious relationships, embarking on those adult bonds that are going

713
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 2: to shape their next couple of decades. Do you see

714
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, similar patterns emerging the people around you and

715
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: your generation.

716
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 15: Oh, one hundred percent, the patterns are still there. I

717
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 15: see a lot of people I know that are in

718
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,959
Speaker 15: toxic relationships, and there is still such a big fear

719
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 15: that comes with going to the police or reporting these things,

720
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 15: because the police still now sometimes just don't listen, they

721
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 15: don't acknowledge these things. They just say, oh, you know,

722
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 15: get out of the relationship belief, But sometimes you can't.

723
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 15: And I think that's a big part of responsibility that

724
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 15: comes down to the police and what they should do

725
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 15: in these situations, because I feel like people are getting

726
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 15: younger and younger and getting trapped in these relationships and

727
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 15: that and so tragically.

728
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: Mattie's part of a generation which is very fluent in

729
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: the language of I suppose what you will call therapy.

730
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: They know phrases like gas lighting or coercive control that

731
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,439
Speaker 2: we didn't have as younger people to describe situations that

732
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: we are our friends might have been in. Matt and Headley,

733
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: what do you think about that empowerment that has come

734
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: Has it changed things for people of your kids generation?

735
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 2: Do you think?

736
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: Gee? I think that the information and the intelligence that

737
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: I get from people like Maddie and my own daughter

738
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: who's just two years older than Maddie, makes me really

739
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: concerned for their safety. And I remember Maddie. It was

740
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: only this time last year that Maddie told me and

741
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't get on the phone for several days. Yeah,

742
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: she wasn't applying to messages, and then finally she said, oh,

743
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: I had the most terrible experience where she meets her friends.

744
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: She'd been spiked, She'd been injected with something that was

745
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: supposed to render her unconscious like rhypnole. Many just tell

746
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: me what's happened.

747
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 15: Well, Saturday night, I went out with my friends and

748
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 15: one second I was sitting at the table, and the

749
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 15: next second I woke up at home the next day

750
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 15: and I had this really sore upper thigh and it

751
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 15: felt like a really deep bruise. I cannot remember a

752
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 15: single thing. My memory was completely gone. And it was

753
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 15: a very small bruise and it felt very very deep,

754
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 15: like any pressure on it hurt. Within like two days after,

755
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 15: I was very dizzy. I got a really really bad headache.

756
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 15: I went to the doctor on the Monday. It was

757
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 15: going to be really hard to find traces because it

758
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 15: had been over twenty four hours. However, they were able

759
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 15: to find minimal traces of something they couldn't exactly identify.

760
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: What has it made you less trusting?

761
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 15: Yeah, it's essentially a day rate drug. I don't know

762
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 15: whether it's because they feel like they can't come up

763
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 15: and talk to us.

764
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: I don't know why they do it.

765
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 15: I was looking into it and it said, if you've

766
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 15: had one or two drinks and you're destructed, chances are

767
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 15: the needle is so tiny you won't feel it. My

768
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 15: friends were all wearing pants. I was the only one

769
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 15: wearing a skirt. There really is no other explanation.

770
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: She was with friends, and she got out of that situation,

771
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: and she was brave enough to confront the hotel managers

772
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: and try to take it forward get CCTV. They couldn't

773
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: have been less interested, sadly in that situation. And we

774
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: talked about even trying to deal with this in the

775
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: podcast episode as a warning to other young women. And

776
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: you could be in a really fancy hotel or pub

777
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: and some guy would just be using a spiking device

778
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: to try to make you unconscious and then take you away,

779
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: and who knows what could have happened. You probably have

780
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: to be a whole lot more savvy about your safety.

781
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:34,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

782
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 15: I mean I told everyone about it because I want

783
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 15: them to be aware too, especially considering there was no

784
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 15: responsibility taken by the pub, And then through talking to people,

785
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 15: found that it had happened so many other times and

786
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 15: nothing had been done, and all they really wanted was

787
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 15: just awareness for it, be cautious of what's going on.

788
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 15: So they kind of still is that level of hopelessness

789
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 15: despite being so far into the future from when Brown disappeared,

790
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 15: where it's like, you know, bad things are still happening.

791
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 15: Despite being so aware of these things and having avenues

792
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 15: like podcasts to talk about them or things being on

793
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 15: the news, it's still so difficult because so many things

794
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 15: just get swept under the carpet, especially things to do

795
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 15: with violence against women.

796
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 2: Matte, you live in northern New South Wales. Lenox Head

797
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 2: is really part of your community, and you spend a

798
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: lot of time there during this investigation. I'm really intrigued

799
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: about how in this community this story became something that

800
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: was discussed in the surf break at the local shops,

801
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: that it didn't go any further. What do you think

802
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 2: about that? What was going on in lenox Head.

803
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 5: It's a very complex question. I just want to let

804
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 5: you know that my daughter's about to turn seventeen and

805
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 5: I sought advice from a very close friend and he

806
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 5: said it's very simple. By a double barrel shotgun and

807
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 5: you leave it in the umbrella stand by the front door.

808
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 5: So I'm working on that. I've been living in far

809
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 5: northern Newsathlales now for about six years. I was living

810
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 5: at a place called Suffolk Park. But then if you

811
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,479
Speaker 5: just go ten or fifteen minutes south you hit Lennox Head,

812
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 5: which really is a hamlet that has not changed that

813
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 5: much over the decades. You can wander down there and

814
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 5: still find every morning at six or seven o'clock in

815
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 5: the morning, a particular group of old surfers in their

816
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 5: seventies and eighties still talking like they might have when

817
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 5: they were in their twenties, as if time has not passed.

818
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 5: This is heaven. Let's look at the break and discuss

819
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 5: things at old surfers discuss. I mean, it's that sort

820
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 5: of place where you know someone can have the same

821
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 5: shop for forty years, so you have a very tight community.

822
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 5: And the fact that nothing happened with Bronwyn for me,

823
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 5: it goes to the heart of the issue and this podcast,

824
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 5: the Bronwin podcast, and indeed the teacher's pet at the

825
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 5: core of both of these stories is something that really

826
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 5: upsets me. And this might sound a little grandiose, but

827
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 5: thinking about Bronwyn and male behavior around her, I have

828
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 5: this thought that the Australian male narrative that we've all

829
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 5: lived with and accepted since the seventeen late seventeen hundreds,

830
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 5: this story of the knock about larkan beer swilling yobo

831
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 5: with a heart of gold. We need to rewrite the

832
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 5: Australian male narrative for starters, I think in our history

833
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 5: and teach the next generation of boys that being a

834
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 5: yobo and hitting women is not right. You are not

835
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 5: a great Australian And that's why I think we should begin.

836
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 5: I'm sorry I drifted off into that, but really, when

837
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 5: I look at Andy and Michelle and I think about

838
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 5: Bronwyn and what she went through. As Headley and his

839
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 5: remarkable work unfolds, it becomes clearer and clearer to me

840
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 5: that we have to do something essential otherwise this is

841
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 5: going to happen over and over and over again as

842
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 5: it is happening. So I'm sorry if I sounded like

843
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 5: I was on a soapbox. But the impact of working

844
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 5: with the team, with Headley and the team, and it

845
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 5: brings up these elemental human stories that are so critical

846
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 5: and go to the heart of how we live and

847
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 5: behave towards each other.

848
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 2: Matt raised a great point there, But we've been talking

849
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: about all these complex and sensitive issues, and what experts

850
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 2: say about cocive control is that perpetrators often don't present

851
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 2: as overtly aggressive or violent. And that's the point. It's

852
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 2: much more true and more frightening to confront the reality

853
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 2: that it's the quiet, insidious, creeping control that is the

854
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: most dangerous and that can ultimately lead to intimate partner homicide.

855
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: It's not just the beast willing your bo you have

856
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: to look out for. It might be the quiet guy,

857
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 2: the apparently sensitive guy. It might be the guy who

858
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: doesn't drink or smoke. Coercive control is strongly linked to

859
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 2: intimate partner homicide, and there is powerful evidence that behaviors

860
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 2: like attempted strangulation are often precursors to homicide. Yeah, one

861
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: of the wonderful things about true crime podcasting is an

862
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,280
Speaker 2: opportunity to step back in time and examine what society

863
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 2: used to be like and maybe hold a mirror up

864
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 2: to our own society. It's also a bit of a

865
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: like a road movie. And on this road movie, the buddies,

866
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 2: you two divided by a generation, kind of a bit

867
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 2: of a father daughter vibe, annoying big brother, demanding younger sister. Maybe, Maddie,

868
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: how do you keep headly in line?

869
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 15: Oh it's easy, Look, I just tell him how it

870
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 15: is he's like, can you do this for me?

871
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: Maybe?

872
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 15: And he's like, okay, okay, and it works. It works well.

873
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

874
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 15: I feel like if I did everything he said, it

875
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 15: wouldn't be the same.

876
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: It's very hard to get cross with Maddie. Yeah, she's

877
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: just got such a big heart and beautiful spirit and

878
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: she strives to help. And I don't think I could

879
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: have got as far as we have with this podcast.

880
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: In fact, I know I wouldn't have if it hadn't

881
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: been for Maddie's help and support, but also for her

882
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: sense of humor. She is so funny, and you need

883
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 1: humor in these dark cases, these stories that involve a

884
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: lot of sadness and stress and looking at death and

885
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: forensic issues and awful things like body decomposition and so on.

886
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: And we do all of that, and then in the

887
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: lighter moments, Maddie just comes to the fore and she's

888
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: got these incredible one liners, and I find that has

889
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: been an enormous help. And the other thing Maddy's been

890
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: able to do is make a great bridge between members

891
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 1: of the family and helping to mediate sometimes difficult situations

892
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: that if Maddie hadn't been around, probably would have been

893
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: almost impossible to negotiate.

894
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 2: I can see a question right there in the middle,

895
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: and please ask us a question, thank you.

896
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 13: I was curious with regards to John Winfield selling his

897
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 13: home and if there would be enough grounds to implement

898
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 13: an order for him not to leave the country or

899
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 13: if there was anything with regards to where that was at.

900
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I know that a lot of people have

901
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: been concerned about that possibility. There's probably every opportunity for

902
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: police if anything happens, to bring back someone who has

903
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: left the jurisdiction. And John Winfield has to have the

904
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: presumption that our rule of law entitles into the presumption

905
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: of innocence, and he should be free to take a

906
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: holiday in my view, like he can go to Bali

907
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 1: or Fiji wherever he likes. But I suspect that if

908
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: he does, the authorities will know that that's where he is.

909
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 1: And there may well be even more than that in

910
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: terms of knowledge of where he might be traveling within

911
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: other countries. Possibly. I don't know he's gone on holidays before,

912
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: surfing trips and so on. And if he takes another one,

913
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: then as long as he's bought a return ticket, that's okay.

914
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 4: Another question my Christopher Heavily, I've got actually zoom out

915
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:17,160
Speaker 4: a moment.

916
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: Did you find podcasting or did podcasting find you?

917
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: I reckon it was a bit of both. Actually. I

918
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: had my wife Ruth, who was urging me to start

919
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: a podcast investigation, and my cousin Rob, who was doing

920
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: the same. Like everybody here, probably I listened to Cereal

921
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: and I hope like most people here, I thought ad

922
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: Nan definitely did it. And I see that in breaking

923
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: news yesterday. The courts in the US have determined that

924
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: they're not going to vacate the conviction and they're looking

925
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: at possibly reducing his sentence. But something weird went on

926
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: about a year ago when they said they were going

927
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: to withdraw the can against him for killing Hayman Lee.

928
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: That was the podcast that really got me thinking seriously

929
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: about doing one. But once I discovered how deeply you

930
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: can delve into true crime and possibly make a positive

931
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: and permanent difference in a case, which is what we

932
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: did in the Teacher's Pet, I realized that it would

933
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: be impossible to go back to the journalism that I

934
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: was doing before, which was all writing. It didn't involve

935
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: any audio, all video. You know, it's going to be grueling.

936
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: They're exhausting. I mean, here we are in February, end

937
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: of February twenty twenty five. I first heard about this

938
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: case almost seven years ago, but we didn't start really

939
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: investigating it properly until I guess January of last year,

940
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: and we've still got several months ago. Hard to let

941
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: go once you've started, and you also know that there's

942
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: so many other cases that need delding into. You know,

943
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: I received probably twenty emails a week from people who

944
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 1: are almost pleading for help in relation to someone they know,

945
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: often a loved one, and the unsolved murder or disappearance

946
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 1: of that person. We're going to a tiny fraction of those,

947
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: but if we do them properly, and we choose well

948
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: slect well ones that can be sold, we can continue

949
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: to do that.

950
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 5: I'm not sure whether you're aware, but had these podcasts

951
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 5: actually have a sort of health and medicinal benefit. We

952
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 5: were flying from Brisbane today. He was seated behind me

953
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 5: and I looked over. He was fast asleep with his

954
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 5: ear podged in and on the gangplank off the plane.

955
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 5: I said, what we're listening to? Is said, I was

956
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 5: listening to the latest episode of Bronwin and he said no,

957
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 5: he said, bear me out. He said, women often come

958
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 5: up to me and say, I go to bed with

959
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 5: you every night and it helps me sleep. And Henry said,

960
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 5: you know what it does, and it was the episode

961
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 5: that is due out next week.

962
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:11,439
Speaker 1: Say to deliver the draft to me, and I thought,

963
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,919
Speaker 1: I'll just hear it on the plane. I can't take

964
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: notes so what I want to change, but at least

965
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:20,479
Speaker 1: I can get a sense of it. So, like most

966
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: of you, I fall asleep to my own podcast.

967
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: Okay, we've got time for one more question and then

968
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: you'll have to take your questions out back out to

969
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 2: the chase just right here at the front. Thank you.

970
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 20: Thank you to everyone and the panel, Mattie and your family,

971
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 20: your bravery for coming forward. I've been fortunate enough to

972
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 20: live in a few countries before Australia, and unfortunately there's

973
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 20: been a common thread where men do act like that

974
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 20: no matter the country. And there's a word for that,

975
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 20: which is femicide, violence upon women because of their gender.

976
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 20: There's a long discussion of loneliness, algorithms, social media creating

977
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 20: the void that creates the islands. But I was just

978
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 20: wondering What were the panel's views on that issue, especially

979
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 20: in the context of men.

980
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 2: What do you think maybe about the men who you know? Well, oh, okay,

981
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 2: she's going to rip into a few people.

982
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 15: I don't know, like I mean my age, no offense,

983
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 15: They all suck. I just do think there is a

984
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 15: lot of change that needs to happen. And I think

985
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 15: maybe it's because they have been given so many excuses for.

986
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 2: The way they act. And oh, it's frustrating. Matt and Henley,

987
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 2: we are all raising somes. All three of us are

988
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: different ages. What do you think about how the generations

989
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 2: who are coming into their maturity now might differ, and

990
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 2: whether social media does play a part in their struggles.

991
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 5: Well, I have a nineteen year old son who he

992
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 5: seemed to have just missed the TikTok obsession, and so

993
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 5: he's out of that. Having said that, I've got a

994
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 5: twelve year old son. His hands are soldered to his

995
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 5: gaming apparatus, but then he's not that fussed with the phone,

996
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 5: whereas my daughter is absolutely obsessed with the phone. I'm

997
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 5: sorry to answer your incredibly brilliant question, would I don't

998
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 5: know whether we've got enough time in a month to

999
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 5: do it. It's a very complicated question. But I went

1000
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 5: to pick up my daughter. She was sitting on the

1001
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 5: ground with her girlfriend. They were sitting side by side

1002
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 5: and texting each other. So the idea of dialogue was anathema,

1003
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 5: and I just thought, that's a snapshot of her generations,

1004
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 5: what we're discovering as older.

1005
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 1: I guess Maddie would look at Matt and I as

1006
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: pretty old. You know, she's twenty two next week. I'll

1007
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: be fifty eight, and a couple of months match recently

1008
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: turned sixty. But Maddie had to adjust pretty quickly to

1009
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: me picking up the telephone and ringing her.

1010
01:02:58,000 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: Regularly.

1011
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 1: All right me and email me?

1012
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 2: And what's so aggressive?

1013
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 1: And I would and I just go, yeah, I'm just

1014
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: going to.

1015
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 21: Ring Maddie and we'll have a conversation and we'll communicate.

1016
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 21: And the communication skill is what we've lost, what the

1017
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 21: younger people, I believe, have forfeited with their obsession with

1018
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 21: screens and platforms and so on. Us coming together like

1019
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 21: this and talking and communicating and having eye contact and

1020
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 21: meeting each other and touching and being able to share

1021
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 21: interesting anecdotes.

1022
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: That just should be the norm. And we've got to

1023
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: get back to a proper communication, whereby the loneliness that

1024
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 1: you're talking about is less of an issue because we're

1025
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: having interaction, we're having normal contact.

1026
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 15: I would like to say, you do often call me

1027
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 15: before nine am.

1028
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to pick that up because.

1029
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 5: I've been working, I've been working for four hours or.

1030
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:01,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I must say I often get the calls before

1031
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: nine a m. As well, I think only when you

1032
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 2: don't pick up.

1033
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1034
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 2: All right, that's it. Thank you very much for coming tonight,

1035
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 2: thank you for listening.

1036
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 11: And.

1037
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: Just an update on the state of play arising from

1038
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 1: Andy Reid's letter to State Coroner Teresa O'Sullivan. That's the

1039
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: letter that was emailed to her office on December seventh,

1040
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. You heard about Andy Reid's letter in

1041
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: episode twenty one, the first episode of this season three.

1042
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: Now it took two months for Andy to receive a

1043
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: very brief written acknowledgment from someone in the State Coroner's

1044
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: office or registry. A few lines of text were finally

1045
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: sent to Andy in that acknowledgment soon after we disclosed

1046
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: it episode twenty one, and in related stories in The

1047
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: Australian that Andy had sent the letter to urge the

1048
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: Date Coroner to use her powers and order a search

1049
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: of the Illewong property. The email confirmed that Andy Reid's

1050
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: eleven page letter of two months earlier had been received. Well.

1051
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 1: Andy already knew that the email to Andy Reid from

1052
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: an unnamed individual in the Coroner's office did not address

1053
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: Andy by name. The email did not even reference the

1054
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: name of the deceased. Andy's sister, Romwin Winfield. She could

1055
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: have been anyone too, and the email did not say

1056
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: from whom it originated. What do we have there? For

1057
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: two months, not even the courtesy of an acknowledgment from

1058
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: the Coroner's office of a crucially important eleven page letter

1059
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 1: drafted in good faith for Andy by a very experienced lawyer.

1060
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 1: When families seeking answers about loved ones are treated that

1061
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 1: shabbily by taxpayer funded agency such as the state Coroner's office,

1062
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 1: it is no wonder in my view that people like

1063
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: Andy reach out to journalists and podcasters to help. Andy

1064
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 1: is aware that the Unsolved Homicide Unit has a copy

1065
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: of the letter which Andy had sent to the State Coroner,

1066
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: Theresa O'Sullivan. The Unsolved Homicide Unit must have got that

1067
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:28,000
Speaker 1: copy from the State Coroner's Office. The State Coroner will

1068
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: no doubt be seeking advice from police about whether Andy's

1069
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: reasons for seeking a search of the property at Illawong

1070
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: are solid and at the recent request of police, I

1071
01:06:39,200 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: have provided further information to a senior detective from the

1072
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: Unsolved Homicide Unit in relation to the suspicions we have

1073
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 1: over the Illawong property. We will follow next steps closely.

1074
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 1: In the meantime, someone in the New South Wales government

1075
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 1: needs to take a good hard look at whether staff

1076
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: supporting the State Coigner's Office are competent and trained to

1077
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: communicate in a timely and courteous fashion with families of

1078
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 1: the deceased. Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley

1079
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 1: Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone

1080
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 1: has information which may help solve this cold case, please

1081
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: contact me confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot

1082
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: com dot au. You can read more about this case

1083
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: and see a range of photographs and other artwork at

1084
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Speaker 1: the website Bronwyn podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered

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Speaker 1: users here episodes. First, the production and editorial team for

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Speaker 1: bromwn Inus Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiert, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca,

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Speaker 1: far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew

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Speaker 1: Condon and David Murray with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio

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Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and

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Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted

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Speaker 1: by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We can

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Speaker 1: only do this kind of journalism with the support of

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Speaker 1: our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For

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Speaker 1: all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and documents

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01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

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Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy

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Speaker 1: and The Night Driver, go to the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe,