WEBVTT - Has Albanese’s NACC been a failure?

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 1>When the Albanese government created the long promised Anti Corruption Commission,

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<v Speaker 1>there was a sense of optimism that the commission would

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<v Speaker 1>weed out corruption and restore faith in politics. But when

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<v Speaker 1>it came to its first big test, investigating the Robodet scandal,

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<v Speaker 1>it took the commission a year to decide it would

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<v Speaker 1>do nothing. Now there are concerns that the NAK is

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<v Speaker 1>failing to live up to its obligations, hindered by silence

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<v Speaker 1>and secrecy. Today special correspondent in Canberra for the Saturday Paper,

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<v Speaker 1>Jason Kotsukus on what the National Anti Corruption Commission has

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<v Speaker 1>achieved so far and whether that's enough. It's Monday, September nine, So, Jason,

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<v Speaker 1>just over a year ago the National Anti Corruption Commission

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<v Speaker 1>was established, and this came after much public outrage and mistrust.

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<v Speaker 1>We were at a real low point, I think when

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<v Speaker 1>it came to faith in our political system when the

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<v Speaker 1>NAC was established, which meant that there were high expectations

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<v Speaker 1>for it. So tell me about the promise of the knack.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, Ruby, I think this was one of the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest promises that Anthony Alberizi made when he was in opposition.

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<v Speaker 2>They'd been talking about this pretty much NonStop for the

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<v Speaker 2>three years up to the twenty twenty two election. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>this was something that Scott Morrison had promised but never

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<v Speaker 2>delivered on. After the legislation was introduced towards the end

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<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty two, that the Elbanezi was very proud

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<v Speaker 2>to stand up in Parliament to be able to say

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<v Speaker 2>that we've delivered on our promises.

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<v Speaker 3>We said we would introduce the legislation and we did

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<v Speaker 3>it today and that delivers on our promises. We promised

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<v Speaker 3>broad jurisdiction, and what this legislation does is will allow

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<v Speaker 3>for the investigation of serious or systemic corruption conduct across

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<v Speaker 3>the Commonwealth public sector by minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>This was something that would restore the faith in our

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<v Speaker 2>political system.

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<v Speaker 3>We do need to restore faith in our political system.

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<v Speaker 3>We need to make sure that there's transparency, that there's accountability,

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<v Speaker 3>and that there is integrity.

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<v Speaker 2>One thing that became clear in November twenty twenty two

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<v Speaker 2>was that while this new body was going to be

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<v Speaker 2>independent from government, you know, it emerged that there would

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<v Speaker 2>only be public hearings in exceptional circumstances. So the Attorney

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<v Speaker 2>General Mark Trefas said that your people should be afraid

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<v Speaker 2>if they've been engaged in corrupt.

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<v Speaker 4>Activities, included any third party who was seeking to adversely

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<v Speaker 4>affect public decision making in a corrupt way is going

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<v Speaker 4>to be the subject of investigation by this commission.

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<v Speaker 2>What about So having set the bar so high, there

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<v Speaker 2>have been some concerns since then that the actually the

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<v Speaker 2>NAC is not living up to its expectations that were

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<v Speaker 2>set by the PM and the Attorney General, and that

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<v Speaker 2>in fact it has betrayed its core obligations. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think there is a growing sense of disappointment and disquiet

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<v Speaker 2>over the neax's performance, not just on the on the crossbench,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think some sections of the Labor caucus are

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<v Speaker 2>also a little bit concerned that this body is not

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<v Speaker 2>quite as powerful as we've been led to believe.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's talk more about that than about these concerns

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<v Speaker 1>about how the KNAC is operating and perhaps falling short.

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<v Speaker 1>What is it that you're hearing?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? This week I spoke with former New South Wales

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<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court judge Anthony Wheeley. He's now chair of the

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<v Speaker 2>Center for Public Integrity, one of the leading think tanks

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<v Speaker 2>in the push to establish a National Integrity Commission, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's very disappointed about what he says as the failures

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<v Speaker 2>of the KNACK to do what it's supposed to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the thing he's most furious about is

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<v Speaker 2>Robodet and the NAC's refusal to investigate six public officials

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<v Speaker 2>that were referred to the NAC by the Robodet Royal Commission.

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<v Speaker 5>The National Anti Corruption Commission has ruled out further investigation

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<v Speaker 5>into the public officials behind the disastrous Robodet scheme that

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<v Speaker 5>saw hundreds of thousands of Australian families hounded for debts

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<v Speaker 5>they didn't owe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was a big moment when the KNACK decided

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<v Speaker 1>not to investigate Robodet despite specifically being asked to. I

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<v Speaker 1>think that was the point at which a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>faith in the NAC began to crumble. So what was

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<v Speaker 1>the reason that the commissioners gave for that decision?

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<v Speaker 2>So the KNACK announced on June six that would not

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<v Speaker 2>investigate the referrals because the conduct of the six public

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<v Speaker 2>officials had already been explored by the Robodet Royal Commission,

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<v Speaker 2>and that further investigation was unlikely to produce significant new evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Commissioner, Paul Breton, spoke about the robot debt

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<v Speaker 2>decision at a public sector anti corruption conference in July,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said that rather than investigating what had already

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<v Speaker 2>been exposed by the Royal Commission, the way that his body,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Anti Corruption Commission, was addressing these issues like

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<v Speaker 2>ROBODET was through prevention and education and equipping decision makers

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<v Speaker 2>to make decisions ethically. But we also learned on June

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<v Speaker 2>six that Paul Breton had recused himself from that decision.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't have a reason why he delegated the decision

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<v Speaker 2>whether to investigate or not to a deputy commissioner. We

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<v Speaker 2>do know that it was to avoid a perception of

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<v Speaker 2>conflict of interest, but it hasn't really been made clear why.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are a lot of questions still hanging over

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<v Speaker 2>this decision. So when Mark Dreyfus announced that there would

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<v Speaker 2>only be public hearings accepted exceptional circumstances, this came as

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<v Speaker 2>a surprise to Anthony Wheely, and he told me that

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<v Speaker 2>he had always believed that public hearings would be a

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<v Speaker 2>core part of the National Anti Corruption Commission, and he'd

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<v Speaker 2>consulted with the Attorney General early on during the process

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<v Speaker 2>of establishing the KNAC. He said there'd been a good

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<v Speaker 2>deal of agreement about what the body should look like

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<v Speaker 2>and what powers it should have, and he told me

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<v Speaker 2>that this limit on public hearings had never been raised

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<v Speaker 2>with him.

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<v Speaker 1>That's interesting that that secrecy provision, according to Willie, wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned as part of the consultation process, but by the

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<v Speaker 1>time the KNACK was created there it was. So what

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<v Speaker 1>has that provision meant? Jason?

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<v Speaker 2>I think what he really said to me was that

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<v Speaker 2>we've got this veil of secrecy around the National Anti

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<v Speaker 2>Corruption Commission. And in the main he said that the

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<v Speaker 2>new body has really been strangely silent, and there have

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<v Speaker 2>been a few announcements, Anthony Whey said, but not very much,

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<v Speaker 2>and no positive indication as to what the body is doing.

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<v Speaker 2>In other words, it seems to be surrounded by this

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<v Speaker 2>wall of relative secrecy.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, is there a good reason why the

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<v Speaker 1>knac's hearings should be behind closed doors? Jason, We've been

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<v Speaker 1>talking about the secrecy that surrounds the NAC's activities. All

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<v Speaker 1>its hearings are largely happening behind closed doors. So what

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<v Speaker 1>is it that we actually know then about what the

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<v Speaker 1>NAC has been doing for the past year. What has

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<v Speaker 1>it achieved since it was established?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think you know, you're exactly right, it's very

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to know. It's impossible to really judge what they've

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<v Speaker 2>been doing because we don't really know. What we do

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<v Speaker 2>know is that the Commissioner Paul Brereton did provide some

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<v Speaker 2>insight into just how many referrals have been triaged and assessed.

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<v Speaker 2>In the next first year. To June thirty, twenty twenty four,

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<v Speaker 2>the Commission had received three one hundred and eighty nine

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<v Speaker 2>referrals of suspected corrupt conduct. About ninety percent of those

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<v Speaker 2>were excluded at the triarche stage because they did not

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<v Speaker 2>concern a Commonwealth per wig official or they didn't raise

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<v Speaker 2>a corruption issue. Commissioner Breriton also revealed that the KNACK

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<v Speaker 2>had opened twenty six corruption investigations, seven of them jointly

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<v Speaker 2>with other agencies, and that they referred nine corruption issues

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<v Speaker 2>to other agencies for investigation. Only one of the NAC's

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<v Speaker 2>investigations has resulted in individual being charged. It's pretty thin pickings,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what the NACS actually achieved so far. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we will see the publication of annual reports and other information,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, regarding what the NAC's been doing. But as

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<v Speaker 2>Professor Ann Toomey said to me, she's Professor Emerita at

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Sydney. She says, you know, it's possible

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<v Speaker 2>that the KNACK is operating extremely well, but we just

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what the knack's doing. And she does have

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a problem with that.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think, Jason, the case for more transparency is clear,

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<v Speaker 1>so that the the public can know that corruption is

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<v Speaker 1>being investigated. But can we talk for a moment about

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons to not have public hearings. Is there a

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<v Speaker 1>case to be made that if the KNACK was to

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<v Speaker 1>do that, then potentially referrals could be made for political

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<v Speaker 1>reasons and people who haven't actually done anything wrong their

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<v Speaker 1>names could be tarnished.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, and that's definitely the strong view of quite

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<v Speaker 2>a number of people. One of the people I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to was William Staltz. He's a lecturer at the Australian

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<v Speaker 2>National University's National Security College. He said the KNACK should

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<v Speaker 2>be aiming to avoid people misrepresenting or weaponizing the referrals

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<v Speaker 2>process for political or other purposes, and he says a

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<v Speaker 2>decision not to progress a referral shouldn't be regarded as

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<v Speaker 2>an indication of innocence, and nor should the existence of

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<v Speaker 2>a referral against a public official be regarded as a

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<v Speaker 2>mark of guilt. So he thinks that we need more

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<v Speaker 2>secrecy and that'll help the KNACK do its work. While

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<v Speaker 2>there's been calls for public hearings, we should also remember

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<v Speaker 2>that with bodies like the New South Wales Independent Commission

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<v Speaker 2>against Corruption, there have been a lot of concerns that

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<v Speaker 2>public hearings that they have conducted have descended into show

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<v Speaker 2>trial like rituals. Gladys Bergiclian has lost the battle to

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<v Speaker 2>clear herself of corruption findings.

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<v Speaker 1>The former premier was hoping to overturn the IYEA.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw Gladys bedicular in the former New South Wales

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<v Speaker 2>premier who was essentially forced to resign because of the

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<v Speaker 2>public hearings that were investigating some of her personal relationships

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<v Speaker 2>while she was.

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<v Speaker 1>Premier, a premier turned optics executive, unable to shake the

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<v Speaker 1>shame of her secret relationship with Daryl Maguire.

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<v Speaker 2>Their love affair ended so while there are some concerns

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<v Speaker 2>about how the KNACK is operating, you know some people

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<v Speaker 2>like Xavier Boffer from the Samuel Griffith Society, this is

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<v Speaker 2>the obviously on the right of Australian politics. But he

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<v Speaker 2>he said to me, look, any talk of reform to

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<v Speaker 2>the NAK is premature and more likely to be ideological

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<v Speaker 2>rather than evidence based. In his view, Australians must remain

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<v Speaker 2>vigilant that the KNAK does not devolve into a kangaroo

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<v Speaker 2>court that compromises the rule of law by engaging in

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<v Speaker 2>theatrical public show trials. When it comes to AIKAK, Mark

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<v Speaker 2>Dreyfus has said that the exception kind of puts the

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<v Speaker 2>National Anti Corruption Commission in line with IKAK because even

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<v Speaker 2>though we see a lot of high profile cases in

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<v Speaker 2>the media, actually only about five percent of those hearings

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<v Speaker 2>of public. But the converse of that is that New

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<v Speaker 2>South Wales IYAKAK does have a broader ability to hold

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<v Speaker 2>public hearings and having the ability to do so hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>led to an overuse of that of that privilege. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's even though the Attorney General Mark Treefuss has used

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<v Speaker 2>that argument the way the new said, well, Eyekak has

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<v Speaker 2>operated seems to prove that having the ability to hold

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<v Speaker 2>public hearings is a privilege that is used wisely by

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<v Speaker 2>the commissioners.

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<v Speaker 1>And at the end of the day, this all goes

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<v Speaker 1>to public trust, doesn't it. That's why the commission was

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<v Speaker 1>set up in the first place, because there was this

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<v Speaker 1>deep public distrust about what politicians and public officials might

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<v Speaker 1>be doing behind closed doors. So if the KNACK isn't

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<v Speaker 1>working to restore that faith because it isn't transparent enough,

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<v Speaker 1>then is the KNAC even working at all?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it probably is too early to say

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<v Speaker 2>whether the KNAC is working or isn't working, but I

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<v Speaker 2>do think that it hasn't properly explained the reasons why

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't investigate the Robodet referrals, and I think that

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<v Speaker 2>has seriously undermined public faith in this body that was

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<v Speaker 2>set up to investigate exactly those types of cases. Having

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<v Speaker 2>said that, I do think we need to give them

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<v Speaker 2>more time to demonstrate whether or not it can do

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<v Speaker 2>the job that it has been asked to do by

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<v Speaker 2>this government. From what I can tell, Paul Breretton is

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<v Speaker 2>a person of high integrity, But I do think they

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<v Speaker 2>haven't properly explained the decision making around not investigating that.

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<v Speaker 2>The Robott referrals.

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<v Speaker 1>Jason, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Ruby, always a pleasure talking with you. Thanks very much.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, questions on sexual orientation and

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<v Speaker 1>gender will be included in the next census. Sure Jim

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<v Speaker 1>Chalmers confirmed the new position yesterday, saying the government has

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<v Speaker 1>listened to the community. His comments follow weeks of criticism

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<v Speaker 1>of the government's decision to withdraw questions on sexuality and

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<v Speaker 1>gender on the basis they would be divisive. A government

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<v Speaker 1>statement confirms only people sixteen and over will be asked

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<v Speaker 1>the new questions and there'll be an option not to answer.

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<v Speaker 1>And protests have broken out across France in response to

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<v Speaker 1>President Emmanuel Macron's decision to pick a conservative prime minister.

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<v Speaker 1>Seventy three year old Michelle Barnier is a former Brexit negotiator.

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<v Speaker 1>His appointment comes after a snap election in June left

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<v Speaker 1>France with a hung parliament. Protest organizers set about three

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<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand people took to the streets across France, with

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<v Speaker 1>just over half in Paris, but police in Paris estimated

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<v Speaker 1>twenty six thousand people had protested there. I'm Ruby Jones.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven am. Thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 4>A low mon