WEBVTT - Untold story of William Tyrrell: Dan Box Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective sy a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.400 Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.879 going to have a conversation I need to have. I'm 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.520 going to talk about an investigation that has had a 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.280 huge impact, not only in my own life, but has 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:02.120 devastated other lives. To talk about the William Tyrell investigation. 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.319 I led that investigation for four years before I was 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.880 removed from the investigation over five years ago, and I 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.640 was criminally charged and convicted. Some people might say, who 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.160 cares what I've got to say? Well, I've sat on 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.160 the sideline since that time and have witnessed misinformation and 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.800 seen speculation flourish. Everyone seems to have an opinion of 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.919 what happened to William. It's time the record set straight. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.479 I'm hoping the person I'm speaking to today will put 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.480 a spotlight on the issues surrounding the William Tyrell case 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.199 with an in depth podcast series called Witness William Tyrell. 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.600 Our guest is award winning journalist Stand Box, who I 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.200 have had the pleasure to work with on many occasions. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.120 I consider him a mate and respect his integrity. Hopefully 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.320 we'll still be friends after this podcast. If you listen, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:56.280 you'll understand where I'm coming from with that comment, Dan Box, Welcome, 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:57.160 Do I catch killers? 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:57.640 Thank you? 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.480 This is going to be a think an awkward conversation 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:02.680 because of the subject matter. 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.960 Look, it's going to be a sad conversation in places 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:10.600 because of the subject matter, and it's going to be 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.320 an angry conversation I think probably for you definitely, and 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.440 maybe for me in places as well, because of the 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.079 subject matter. And it's going to be awkward. 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:25.760 Yeah, have you have you You've been a crime reporter 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.400 for a very long time. Have you been involved in 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.160 reporting on or investigating a matter such as William Tyrell 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.839 that evokes so much emotion polarizes people. Have you seen 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.119 anything like this in your time? 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.520 No, And I was thinking about exactly this on the 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.240 walk here today. There's things that set this case apart. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.959 And it's not just the fact that it's a child 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.120 at the center of it, because I've worked on cases 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.040 like you have that have had children at the center 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.440 of them, and it's not just the emotions. But what 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:04.120 it is I think is two things for me at least, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.240 One is the sheer scale of this case and the 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.400 work that we've done on it. So we've been on 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.720 this for two years, working on this podcast series. This 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.200 case or the people involved in it have been to 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.000 every court in New South Wales local court, District court, 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:28.400 Supreme Court, Court of Appeal, Coroner's court. So we've got 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:34.640 court files and documents, an incredible amount of information with 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.800 three four different coronial cases we've looked at as part 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.640 of the research into this case, and it will be 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.360 a fifth because I think to get access to that 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.839 we're going to have to probably challenge a suppression order. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.440 And that's the other thing that sets this case apart 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:58.200 is the secrecy that surrounds it. I have never worked 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:03.160 on any criminal investigation as a reporter that has been 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:08.240 shrouded in this amount of secrecy, non publication orders, suppression orders, 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.680 legal bars and what you can and can't say. And 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.760 maybe because of all that secrecy, the amount of speculation 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:22.640 and the amount of misinformation, and the way people, including 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:27.840 the media, have split into frankly two camps. You're either 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.800 four Williams foster mum or you're against her. I've never 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.520 seen anything like that before. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.479 Yeah. Well, I think you've summed it up nicely, the 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.440 type of intensity that surrounds it. But the way that 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.159 polarizes people and what And I've been sitting on the 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.320 sideline for five and a half years, almost six years now, Yeah, 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.799 watching it. What concerns me. All the opinions don't seem 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.600 to be fact based. It's an emotional investigation. People are 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.560 very strong one way or the other, but they don't 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.120 look at the facts. And coming from a homice, I 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.760 had to take this point of view now myself. Moving 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.279 into the media, I thought stories would be driven by facts, 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:07.200 but they don't seem to me. 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.920 You're talking about the public response. Look, A good example 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.960 of that is the stuff that people are saying about 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:19.919 us online, like I've been abused, which is fair enough, 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.600 maybe I deserve it. The people I work with have 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:23.880 been abused. 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.080 When you're talking, this is the people you're working on 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:26.880 the podcast with. 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:32.479 Yeah, yeah, called oh look, hohorendous things and yeah, okay, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.279 I went into this with my eyes open. I knew 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.120 there was going to be a bit of abuse, but 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:40.599 to say the things they have and about the people 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.760 I work with, and about the fact that you and 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.320 I have got a professional relationship that goes back a 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:51.800 long time now, even just this weekend, people are I 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.000 don't go looking for it, but sometimes it finds you. 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.320 People are saying things. But they're not saying things because 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.680 they know the facts. They're not saying things because frankly, 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.839 they've got a legitimate opinion that they'd be happy to 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.720 say in the same room if they were sitting here. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.600 They're saying things because they think we disagree with them. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.240 And so people are just throwing these kind of angry 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:21.120 online abuse as because it has split into these two 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.880 different camps. And you're right, a factual understanding of what 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:30.000 happened in terms of the public response. Sadly, that seems 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.040 to be more than some people can deal with. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.719 Yeah, well, look, I doesn't hold me well when I'm 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.080 now working in the media, but I hold the media 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:43.640 partly responsible for it, because I think I've been in 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.240 the media long enough now to understand that what the 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.200 story should be based on. And it's some stories that 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.960 I've read, whether it be in print media, on rate audio, 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.159 or television, that is clearly misleading and all the facts 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.760 haven't been presented. If you take one point in isolation 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.080 and put that out as a story without giving a balance, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.720 of course, it's going to evoke people at reactions. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:09.480 Yeah, and this is the point where I start to 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.480 lose friends because I am a journalist. I like journalists. 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.480 I'm friends with some journalists. But I think you're right. 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:26.000 There's been misreporting because people didn't know the facts. And 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.080 that's one thing, like most of the time as journalists, 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.320 we're scratching around trying to work out what the truth 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.080 is and then telling our best version of it. But 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:38.600 there's been misreporting that is Ah, look, I'd hate to 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.760 say deliberately slanted, but at least subconsciously slanted. And there's 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.240 been stuff that I've seen reported and then we've gone 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.120 away and worked on it and come up with a 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.120 bunch of documents or spoken to various people, and I've 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.840 looked at these original reports and gone, you just got 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.440 that wrong. But I go back to the fact that 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.360 this case was shrouded in secrecy from the start. So 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.920 William Tyrell is a foster child, and for I think 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:11.080 years we couldn't say that. You and the police knew 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.400 who he knew he was, We in the media knew 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.920 he was, a bunch of people online were saying he was, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.120 but the laws prevented us from saying it. So there's 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.760 a secrecy right from the start that has been compounded 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.440 and made more secret by all these different court orders 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.280 restricting what you can say. And so as a result, Yeah, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.960 people in the media have got some facts, and a 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.800 lot of them are doing a really good job. But 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.040 when you've got basically an absence of truth, an absence 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.440 of facts, yeah, mistruths start to creep in to fill 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:44.880 a void. 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.880 Yeah. Well, I can say it's been frustrating for me 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.960 sitting on the sidelines watching it, for the people involved 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.360 directly involved in the investigation. I taught the biological parents 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.400 of Foster Pearance. I can only imagine what they're going 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.599 through with the information. But wind it back the genesis 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:05.319 of the podcast. Now people know, and I'm glad you 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.000 mentioned that. I mentioned it in the introduction. We've got 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.280 a relationship. It's been a professional relationship from when you're 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.600 a crime reporter and I was in the police. We've 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.720 since worked together and I think it's fair enough. And 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.840 don't correct me here because it could be embarrassing. I 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.000 think you could cause friends at this stage, but we'll 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.920 depending on what happens here in the podcast. It was 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.439 always my intent when I found myself out of the 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.840 police and working in the podcast space, to do a 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:33.640 podcast on William tyrrel because I wanted to set the 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.959 records straight. And it's not about defending my position, it's 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.080 just let get all the facts out. I made a 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.120 conscious decision that I think it would have been better 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.560 for me to step away from doing a podcast because 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.160 I'm too heavily invested in it emotionally, professionally and everything else, 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.920 and I think it could look like it's self serving. 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.440 It's just a narrative I'm putting out you come along, 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.720 You're going to do a podcast, and I I said, well, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:02.680 I don't want to be involved in it. I'll come 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.559 in as a guest. And you caution me that you're 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.199 not going to slant the podcast in my favor. You're 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.000 going to do a deep dive into the investigation and 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:12.640 wherever that goes. 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:13.280 So be it. 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.200 Yeah, I accept that, and I've got to say here 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:19.720 and you can respond if you want. I was happy 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.640 that you're doing it because I know the depth of 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.600 investigative journalism that you do and your ethical approach to things. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.360 What's your take on the podcast? Why did you feel 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.680 the need to do the podcast in the first place 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:32.600 about William Tirel. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.760 Yeah, look, so just on that question and then going 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.280 back to what you were saying about how the two 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.440 of us do have this pre existing relationship, because that's 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.760 I've got to be frank about that as well. Think 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.040 with the podcast and the reason I like working with them, 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.880 there's two things. One is there massive So this thing 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.679 is the series we're right in the middle of making 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.360 at the moment. So I'm going to walk out here 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.679 and I'm going to script one of the episodes. So 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.959 we're right in the heart of it now. That's probably 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.679 going to run to maybe eleven episodes, maybe twelve episodes. 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:09.960 It's going to be running until the end of the year. 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.960 Each of those, let's say it's forty five minutes long. 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.240 I can't even do the maths in my head, but 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.559 that is hours and hours and hours of documentary reporting. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.440 There isn't a medium available today that gives you that 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.640 much time that you know, you look at four Corners. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.160 We're going to do multiple the equivalent of multiple episodes 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.720 of Four Corners. We're going to do the equivalent of 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:37.600 probably something like sixty to seventy thousand words of script. 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.680 That would be like an entire newspaper, maybe two days 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.720 worth of a newspaper. So we're going to get into detail. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.560 We're going to be able to interrogate those facts that 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:51.240 have maybe been misunderstood or misreported. We're going to be 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.000 able to challenge different people's accounts and just give a 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.720 better understanding of this thing, which isn't really that well 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.760 understood because a podcast series is so big. So that's 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.160 one of the reasons to do it. And the other reason, 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:07.960 and this goes back to something new and I have 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.480 worked together on is a podcast lets you hear people 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.800 tell their story in their own words, so you can 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.120 hear the most honest version. And I'm not just talking 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.760 about telling the truth honest, but emotionally honest. So you 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.840 can hear the catch in their throat as they're trying 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.240 not to cry and they're talking to you. You can 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:33.679 hear that kind of pause when they're almost trying to 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.960 process just the fact that they're dealing with, in this case, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.440 the loss of a three year old boy. And that 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.400 is a better way of telling this story than I 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.760 can do on my own. I can write stuff down 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.400 and it might be in a newspaper, but it's never 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.360 going to be as powerful or as honest emotionally as 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.599 having the people who are at the center of this 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.400 story tell that story in their own words. But to 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.160 go back to you and I, because you and I 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:09.960 first met and first ended up working on something that 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.560 became another podcast, which was the Bauerville Murders, murder of 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.280 three children up in little town called Bauerville in the 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:20.040 mid North Coast. And I remember at the time that 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:21.920 I didn't know you from Adam, You didn't know me. 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.400 You I was a journalist, but you were working on 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.640 that case and have been for twenty odd years. I 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.920 came in and said, look, let's let's try doing a 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.920 podcast about it. And I remember you saying, I think 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.440 I can't remember if you said, what's a podcast? But 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.440 you weren't impressed, like you'd never really heard of. 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.960 It in fairness, and then you're quite right, Yeah, that 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.439 was a great statement. I think I did say, what 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:48.600 do you mean a podcast? What's a podcast? But that 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.600 was that was one of the very early true crime podcasts. 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:56.000 Yeah, but it worked. It told that story well. And 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.080 at the same time you guys and the police were 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.000 calling for the the a ledged suspect to go be 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:04.640 sent back to court. The families were doing the same thing. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.400 And then we came along and at the same time, 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.720 and we created enough of a noise and he ended 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.640 up getting sent back to court and that was a 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:15.680 good result. But it does flag you know, that was 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.440 the best part of a decade ago. Now, so you 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.920 and I have known each other for that long. We 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.680 worked in as much as I was a reporter on 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.240 that case, and then I've reported on other cases you 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.480 worked on, not because I well, you do do some 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.560 interesting work, but also that was my job. I was 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.240 a crime reporter and you were working on high profile cases. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.880 But then you left the cops. You and I co 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.880 wrote a couple of books which were memoirs, so you're 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:48.720 talking about your career. And then I came back to 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.520 Australia and ended up working for News Court in podcasting, 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:57.080 including overseeing the podcast that we're talking on now. So 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.320 you and I have a professional relationship personal relationship that 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.200 goes back a long time. So you talked about with 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.400 this William Tyrrell podcast wanting to step back, and probably 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.200 the thing I've got to say, and I will say 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.920 in the podcast is you know, Gary and I have 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.240 got a long and established relationship. That doesn't mean I 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.440 always agree with you on everything, and I don't, and 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:25.000 I've told you that. But people listening to this today 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.600 and to the William Tyrell podcast, if they do, are 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.360 going to have to judge for themselves. If I can 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:37.040 still be objective about you and your actions and what 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:38.680 I think you got right and what I think you 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:43.320 got wrong, even though you and I do know each other. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.800 Well, yeah, yeah, and I look and I think it's 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.200 important we get it out in this forum. Talking about 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.720 your podcast series that people understand we're not hiding the fact. 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.880 I don't want people to come out and go, oh yeah, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.240 but Dan and Jubeian know each other and blah. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:58.720 It's not a secret. 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.480 But just to reassure people because they're trusting us on 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.200 what we're saying here, I got respect for you as 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.600 a crime journalist, and I think I've said this to you. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.840 But in case people haven't heard this story, it was 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.200 over an investigation. I forget which investigation I was working on, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.280 but you were doing an article where there was going 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.200 to be some criticism of the police in an investigation, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.480 and you pulled me aside at the court and you said, 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.440 can we just catch up for a second. I just 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.520 want to tell you something, And you said to me, look, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.160 I don't know, this is an awkward conversation, but I'm 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:31.960 going to be reporting on something. I'm going to be 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.720 critical of an investigation you were involved in or leading 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.720 or whatever. And I think my response was I laughed, 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:41.240 and I laughed at well, that's your job, Dan, Like 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.240 I had respect for you, that the fact that you 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.600 would report unbiasedly regardless of whether we were forming a 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.440 friendship or you knew me, and I respect journalism like that. 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.800 So that's where I'm comfortable in what you're doing on 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.760 the Terial investigation. And I've always said with the Teral investigation, 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.200 bring on an inquiry. I invite your scrutiny. In the 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.560 William Tyrell podcast, I've deliberately not got involved. 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.480 We're deliberately well you as much as we do interview you, 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:10.520 but you're not involved in No. 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.399 You interviewed me, and I think you apologized before we 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.879 walked into this very room. You said you might like 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:18.520 me after this and with the stuff that you put 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.800 to me. But from my position, and I challenge everyone 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.159 for this that unless you ask the hard questions, I 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.200 can't justify my position. So I didn't want it brushed over, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.760 and I'm confident with the podcast you're going to do that. 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.880 The other thing about the Witness William Tyrell podcast, I've 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.320 seen how hard you've worked on it, and I haven't 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.280 stuck my nose and go what are you doing here? 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.159 What are you doing there? And I'm mainly listening to 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.720 the podcast episodes when they come out and available to 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.960 the public because I don't want to be involved, because 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.480 I want I don't want criticism saying I jub once 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.399 had his hands over this, so where it falls, it falls. 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.880 And I think when I'm talking from a police point 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.320 of view, when you're being handed the responsibility of investigating 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.879 the disappearance of a three year old child, you should 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.240 be accountable. You should be responsible, and if you've made mistakes, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:13.800 they should be acknowledged and learned from. So that's my position. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:15.800 So I think we can still be friends. 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.800 Are so far so far, but we actually haven't done 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.000 the episodes about you yet. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:25.600 Jesus, Okay, no, Look, Dan, I invite it. It needs 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:27.200 to be scrutinized. It's too important. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.480 Look, I'm with you one hundred percent. I think these 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.040 things do need to be scrutinized. And I think this case, 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.600 and particularly the fallout from the investigation, so in ten 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.879 years William's been missing, we're still in terms of the 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.920 public still have no idea what happened to him. Maybe 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.680 the police do, but if they do, they haven't charged anyone. 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.600 I think that does deserve scrutiny because it's it's like 0:18:54.640 --> 0:19:00.560 a collective responsibility to say, what happened here and did 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.560 we get the response right? If only to stop it 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:08.560 happening again or help stop it happening again. That said, 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.840 it's going to be uncomfortable. I joke before that I'm 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.800 going to lose friends over this, but I will. I've 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:21.760 been aware of that for a while because any account 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:26.480 of the investigation into William Till's disappearance is going to 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.919 involve saying that some things weren't done well, and some 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.440 things weren't done well by the police, and some things 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.520 weren't done well by the media, and some things weren't 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:42.960 done well by the state government, particularly the foster care authorities. 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:45.800 And I know people in all of those groups, and 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.600 already there's one person who I thought we had a 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.400 really good professional relationship with who is no longer responding 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.880 to text messages. And that's fair enough. You know, people 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:04.280 get to make their own judge, but I don't really, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.080 I don't really have any choice. I'm committed to doing 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.040 this the best way I know how, which won't be perfect, 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.879 and I'll make mistakes, and people have already spotted a 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:17.040 couple and pointed them out and we've corrected them. But 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.679 if I'm going to do this the best way I 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.439 know how, then it is going to be uncomfortable. 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.080 Yeah, yeah, And look at the two I won't say 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.320 take a stand, that's not the right thing, but to 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.720 look at something in depth objectively, there is always going 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.480 to be collateral damage. That's the nature of what you do. 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.840 Hendley Thomas Teachers Pet, and I use that as a 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.960 reference point because I'd see here comfortably saying if the 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:47.320 podcast series Teachers Pet didn't occur, that that investigation wouldn't 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.800 have been solved. That created an environment where the investigation 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.239 was solved. I think the landscape has changed greatly. And 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:57.879 I know this from being a police officer for thirty 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.640 four years that it was very insular in what came 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.199 out in the place. You had your contacts in the 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.920 in the media, and the senior place would be contacting 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.639 that brief briefing the media. It was very controlled. Podcasting 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.200 has turned that world upside down. Police can no longer 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:17.440 control a narrative. I think with Teacher's Pitt Place lost 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.520 control of the narrative there and look what resulted. 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.440 In One thing that was interesting about Teacher's Pet. And 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.440 I think I probably know this from maybe listening because 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.639 you interviewed Headley on this podcast, and maybe he was 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.840 talking about it then. But at the start, when Headley 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.400 was working on that. The police weren't cooperating at all, 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.000 which is basically standard, and that's fair enough. They're running 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.439 live homicide investigations. They got to control what said and 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:46.679 what's known to the best of their ability. So the 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:51.680 police weren't cooperating with Headley. But then you stop putting 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.520 the series out and things change because people see their 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:57.760 under scrutiny. And that's where we are. So we're two episodes. 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.480 Three episodes have been published so far. People now know 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.800 they're under scrutiny and people are coming forward. We're being 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.280 contacted with tips constantly, which is part of the reason 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.040 I'm so tired at the moment, because we're trying to 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.879 make the podcast but also investigate all this new stuff 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.840 that's coming in. And Hedley was doing the same, but 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:21.160 the big thing that changed with him was the police 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.680 came on board. So I remember Hegley saying he sat 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.359 down and had lunch with the then police commissioner Mick 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:32.160