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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're

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Speaker 1: going to have a conversation I need to have. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk about an investigation that has had a

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Speaker 1: huge impact, not only in my own life, but has

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Speaker 1: devastated other lives. To talk about the William Tyrell investigation.

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Speaker 1: I led that investigation for four years before I was

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Speaker 1: removed from the investigation over five years ago, and I

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Speaker 1: was criminally charged and convicted. Some people might say, who

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Speaker 1: cares what I've got to say? Well, I've sat on

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Speaker 1: the sideline since that time and have witnessed misinformation and

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Speaker 1: seen speculation flourish. Everyone seems to have an opinion of

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Speaker 1: what happened to William. It's time the record set straight.

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping the person I'm speaking to today will put

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Speaker 1: a spotlight on the issues surrounding the William Tyrell case

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Speaker 1: with an in depth podcast series called Witness William Tyrell.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is award winning journalist Stand Box, who I

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Speaker 1: have had the pleasure to work with on many occasions.

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Speaker 1: I consider him a mate and respect his integrity. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: we'll still be friends after this podcast. If you listen,

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Speaker 1: you'll understand where I'm coming from with that comment, Dan Box, Welcome,

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Speaker 1: Do I catch killers?

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Speaker 2: Thank you?

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a think an awkward conversation

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Speaker 1: because of the subject matter.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's going to be a sad conversation in places

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Speaker 2: because of the subject matter, and it's going to be

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Speaker 2: an angry conversation I think probably for you definitely, and

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Speaker 2: maybe for me in places as well, because of the

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Speaker 2: subject matter. And it's going to be awkward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, have you have you You've been a crime reporter

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Speaker 1: for a very long time. Have you been involved in

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Speaker 1: reporting on or investigating a matter such as William Tyrell

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Speaker 1: that evokes so much emotion polarizes people. Have you seen

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Speaker 1: anything like this in your time?

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Speaker 2: No, And I was thinking about exactly this on the

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Speaker 2: walk here today. There's things that set this case apart.

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Speaker 2: And it's not just the fact that it's a child

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Speaker 2: at the center of it, because I've worked on cases

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Speaker 2: like you have that have had children at the center

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Speaker 2: of them, and it's not just the emotions. But what

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Speaker 2: it is I think is two things for me at least,

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Speaker 2: One is the sheer scale of this case and the

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Speaker 2: work that we've done on it. So we've been on

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Speaker 2: this for two years, working on this podcast series. This

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Speaker 2: case or the people involved in it have been to

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Speaker 2: every court in New South Wales local court, District court,

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court, Court of Appeal, Coroner's court. So we've got

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Speaker 2: court files and documents, an incredible amount of information with

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Speaker 2: three four different coronial cases we've looked at as part

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Speaker 2: of the research into this case, and it will be

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Speaker 2: a fifth because I think to get access to that

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Speaker 2: we're going to have to probably challenge a suppression order.

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Speaker 2: And that's the other thing that sets this case apart

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Speaker 2: is the secrecy that surrounds it. I have never worked

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Speaker 2: on any criminal investigation as a reporter that has been

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Speaker 2: shrouded in this amount of secrecy, non publication orders, suppression orders,

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Speaker 2: legal bars and what you can and can't say. And

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Speaker 2: maybe because of all that secrecy, the amount of speculation

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Speaker 2: and the amount of misinformation, and the way people, including

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Speaker 2: the media, have split into frankly two camps. You're either

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Speaker 2: four Williams foster mum or you're against her. I've never

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Speaker 2: seen anything like that before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think you've summed it up nicely, the

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Speaker 1: type of intensity that surrounds it. But the way that

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Speaker 1: polarizes people and what And I've been sitting on the

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Speaker 1: sideline for five and a half years, almost six years now, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: watching it. What concerns me. All the opinions don't seem

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Speaker 1: to be fact based. It's an emotional investigation. People are

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Speaker 1: very strong one way or the other, but they don't

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Speaker 1: look at the facts. And coming from a homice, I

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Speaker 1: had to take this point of view now myself. Moving

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Speaker 1: into the media, I thought stories would be driven by facts,

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Speaker 1: but they don't seem to me.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about the public response. Look, A good example

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Speaker 2: of that is the stuff that people are saying about

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Speaker 2: us online, like I've been abused, which is fair enough,

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Speaker 2: maybe I deserve it. The people I work with have

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Speaker 2: been abused.

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Speaker 1: When you're talking, this is the people you're working on

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Speaker 1: the podcast with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, called oh look, hohorendous things and yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: I went into this with my eyes open. I knew

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Speaker 2: there was going to be a bit of abuse, but

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Speaker 2: to say the things they have and about the people

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Speaker 2: I work with, and about the fact that you and

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Speaker 2: I have got a professional relationship that goes back a

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Speaker 2: long time now, even just this weekend, people are I

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Speaker 2: don't go looking for it, but sometimes it finds you.

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Speaker 2: People are saying things. But they're not saying things because

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Speaker 2: they know the facts. They're not saying things because frankly,

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Speaker 2: they've got a legitimate opinion that they'd be happy to

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Speaker 2: say in the same room if they were sitting here.

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Speaker 2: They're saying things because they think we disagree with them.

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Speaker 2: And so people are just throwing these kind of angry

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Speaker 2: online abuse as because it has split into these two

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Speaker 2: different camps. And you're right, a factual understanding of what

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Speaker 2: happened in terms of the public response. Sadly, that seems

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Speaker 2: to be more than some people can deal with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, I doesn't hold me well when I'm

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Speaker 1: now working in the media, but I hold the media

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Speaker 1: partly responsible for it, because I think I've been in

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Speaker 1: the media long enough now to understand that what the

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Speaker 1: story should be based on. And it's some stories that

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Speaker 1: I've read, whether it be in print media, on rate audio,

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Speaker 1: or television, that is clearly misleading and all the facts

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Speaker 1: haven't been presented. If you take one point in isolation

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Speaker 1: and put that out as a story without giving a balance,

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Speaker 1: of course, it's going to evoke people at reactions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the point where I start to

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Speaker 2: lose friends because I am a journalist. I like journalists.

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Speaker 2: I'm friends with some journalists. But I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: There's been misreporting because people didn't know the facts. And

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Speaker 2: that's one thing, like most of the time as journalists,

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Speaker 2: we're scratching around trying to work out what the truth

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Speaker 2: is and then telling our best version of it. But

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Speaker 2: there's been misreporting that is Ah, look, I'd hate to

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Speaker 2: say deliberately slanted, but at least subconsciously slanted. And there's

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Speaker 2: been stuff that I've seen reported and then we've gone

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Speaker 2: away and worked on it and come up with a

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Speaker 2: bunch of documents or spoken to various people, and I've

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Speaker 2: looked at these original reports and gone, you just got

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Speaker 2: that wrong. But I go back to the fact that

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Speaker 2: this case was shrouded in secrecy from the start. So

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Speaker 2: William Tyrell is a foster child, and for I think

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Speaker 2: years we couldn't say that. You and the police knew

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Speaker 2: who he knew he was, We in the media knew

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Speaker 2: he was, a bunch of people online were saying he was,

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Speaker 2: but the laws prevented us from saying it. So there's

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Speaker 2: a secrecy right from the start that has been compounded

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Speaker 2: and made more secret by all these different court orders

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Speaker 2: restricting what you can say. And so as a result, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: people in the media have got some facts, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of them are doing a really good job. But

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Speaker 2: when you've got basically an absence of truth, an absence

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Speaker 2: of facts, yeah, mistruths start to creep in to fill

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Speaker 2: a void.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I can say it's been frustrating for me

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Speaker 1: sitting on the sidelines watching it, for the people involved

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Speaker 1: directly involved in the investigation. I taught the biological parents

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Speaker 1: of Foster Pearance. I can only imagine what they're going

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Speaker 1: through with the information. But wind it back the genesis

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Speaker 1: of the podcast. Now people know, and I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that. I mentioned it in the introduction. We've got

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Speaker 1: a relationship. It's been a professional relationship from when you're

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Speaker 1: a crime reporter and I was in the police. We've

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Speaker 1: since worked together and I think it's fair enough. And

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Speaker 1: don't correct me here because it could be embarrassing. I

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Speaker 1: think you could cause friends at this stage, but we'll

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Speaker 1: depending on what happens here in the podcast. It was

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Speaker 1: always my intent when I found myself out of the

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Speaker 1: police and working in the podcast space, to do a

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Speaker 1: podcast on William tyrrel because I wanted to set the

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Speaker 1: records straight. And it's not about defending my position, it's

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Speaker 1: just let get all the facts out. I made a

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Speaker 1: conscious decision that I think it would have been better

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Speaker 1: for me to step away from doing a podcast because

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Speaker 1: I'm too heavily invested in it emotionally, professionally and everything else,

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Speaker 1: and I think it could look like it's self serving.

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Speaker 1: It's just a narrative I'm putting out you come along,

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Speaker 1: You're going to do a podcast, and I I said, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be involved in it. I'll come

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Speaker 1: in as a guest. And you caution me that you're

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Speaker 1: not going to slant the podcast in my favor. You're

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Speaker 1: going to do a deep dive into the investigation and

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Speaker 1: wherever that goes.

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Speaker 2: So be it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I accept that, and I've got to say here

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Speaker 1: and you can respond if you want. I was happy

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Speaker 1: that you're doing it because I know the depth of

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Speaker 1: investigative journalism that you do and your ethical approach to things.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on the podcast? Why did you feel

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Speaker 1: the need to do the podcast in the first place

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Speaker 1: about William Tirel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, so just on that question and then going

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Speaker 2: back to what you were saying about how the two

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Speaker 2: of us do have this pre existing relationship, because that's

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Speaker 2: I've got to be frank about that as well. Think

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Speaker 2: with the podcast and the reason I like working with them,

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Speaker 2: there's two things. One is there massive So this thing

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Speaker 2: is the series we're right in the middle of making

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Speaker 2: at the moment. So I'm going to walk out here

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to script one of the episodes. So

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Speaker 2: we're right in the heart of it now. That's probably

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Speaker 2: going to run to maybe eleven episodes, maybe twelve episodes.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be running until the end of the year.

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Speaker 2: Each of those, let's say it's forty five minutes long.

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Speaker 2: I can't even do the maths in my head, but

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Speaker 2: that is hours and hours and hours of documentary reporting.

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Speaker 2: There isn't a medium available today that gives you that

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Speaker 2: much time that you know, you look at four Corners.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do multiple the equivalent of multiple episodes

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Speaker 2: of Four Corners. We're going to do the equivalent of

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Speaker 2: probably something like sixty to seventy thousand words of script.

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Speaker 2: That would be like an entire newspaper, maybe two days

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Speaker 2: worth of a newspaper. So we're going to get into detail.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be able to interrogate those facts that

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Speaker 2: have maybe been misunderstood or misreported. We're going to be

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Speaker 2: able to challenge different people's accounts and just give a

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Speaker 2: better understanding of this thing, which isn't really that well

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Speaker 2: understood because a podcast series is so big. So that's

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons to do it. And the other reason,

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Speaker 2: and this goes back to something new and I have

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Speaker 2: worked together on is a podcast lets you hear people

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Speaker 2: tell their story in their own words, so you can

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Speaker 2: hear the most honest version. And I'm not just talking

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Speaker 2: about telling the truth honest, but emotionally honest. So you

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Speaker 2: can hear the catch in their throat as they're trying

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Speaker 2: not to cry and they're talking to you. You can

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Speaker 2: hear that kind of pause when they're almost trying to

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Speaker 2: process just the fact that they're dealing with, in this case,

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Speaker 2: the loss of a three year old boy. And that

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Speaker 2: is a better way of telling this story than I

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Speaker 2: can do on my own. I can write stuff down

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Speaker 2: and it might be in a newspaper, but it's never

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Speaker 2: going to be as powerful or as honest emotionally as

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Speaker 2: having the people who are at the center of this

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Speaker 2: story tell that story in their own words. But to

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Speaker 2: go back to you and I, because you and I

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Speaker 2: first met and first ended up working on something that

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Speaker 2: became another podcast, which was the Bauerville Murders, murder of

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Speaker 2: three children up in little town called Bauerville in the

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Speaker 2: mid North Coast. And I remember at the time that

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Speaker 2: I didn't know you from Adam, You didn't know me.

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Speaker 2: You I was a journalist, but you were working on

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Speaker 2: that case and have been for twenty odd years. I

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Speaker 2: came in and said, look, let's let's try doing a

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Speaker 2: podcast about it. And I remember you saying, I think

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Speaker 2: I can't remember if you said, what's a podcast? But

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Speaker 2: you weren't impressed, like you'd never really heard of.

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Speaker 1: It in fairness, and then you're quite right, Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was a great statement. I think I did say, what

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Speaker 1: do you mean a podcast? What's a podcast? But that

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Speaker 1: was that was one of the very early true crime podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it worked. It told that story well. And

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Speaker 2: at the same time you guys and the police were

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Speaker 2: calling for the the a ledged suspect to go be

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Speaker 2: sent back to court. The families were doing the same thing.

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Speaker 2: And then we came along and at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and we created enough of a noise and he ended

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Speaker 2: up getting sent back to court and that was a

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Speaker 2: good result. But it does flag you know, that was

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Speaker 2: the best part of a decade ago. Now, so you

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Speaker 2: and I have known each other for that long. We

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Speaker 2: worked in as much as I was a reporter on

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Speaker 2: that case, and then I've reported on other cases you

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Speaker 2: worked on, not because I well, you do do some

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Speaker 2: interesting work, but also that was my job. I was

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Speaker 2: a crime reporter and you were working on high profile cases.

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Speaker 2: But then you left the cops. You and I co

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Speaker 2: wrote a couple of books which were memoirs, so you're

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Speaker 2: talking about your career. And then I came back to

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Speaker 2: Australia and ended up working for News Court in podcasting,

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Speaker 2: including overseeing the podcast that we're talking on now. So

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Speaker 2: you and I have a professional relationship personal relationship that

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Speaker 2: goes back a long time. So you talked about with

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Speaker 2: this William Tyrrell podcast wanting to step back, and probably

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Speaker 2: the thing I've got to say, and I will say

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Speaker 2: in the podcast is you know, Gary and I have

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Speaker 2: got a long and established relationship. That doesn't mean I

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Speaker 2: always agree with you on everything, and I don't, and

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Speaker 2: I've told you that. But people listening to this today

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Speaker 2: and to the William Tyrell podcast, if they do, are

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Speaker 2: going to have to judge for themselves. If I can

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Speaker 2: still be objective about you and your actions and what

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Speaker 2: I think you got right and what I think you

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Speaker 2: got wrong, even though you and I do know each other.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, and I look and I think it's

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Speaker 1: important we get it out in this forum. Talking about

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Speaker 1: your podcast series that people understand we're not hiding the fact.

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Speaker 1: I don't want people to come out and go, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: but Dan and Jubeian know each other and blah.

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Speaker 2: It's not a secret.

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Speaker 1: But just to reassure people because they're trusting us on

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Speaker 1: what we're saying here, I got respect for you as

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Speaker 1: a crime journalist, and I think I've said this to you.

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Speaker 1: But in case people haven't heard this story, it was

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Speaker 1: over an investigation. I forget which investigation I was working on,

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Speaker 1: but you were doing an article where there was going

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Speaker 1: to be some criticism of the police in an investigation,

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Speaker 1: and you pulled me aside at the court and you said,

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Speaker 1: can we just catch up for a second. I just

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Speaker 1: want to tell you something, And you said to me, look,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, this is an awkward conversation, but I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be reporting on something. I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: critical of an investigation you were involved in or leading

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think my response was I laughed,

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Speaker 1: and I laughed at well, that's your job, Dan, Like

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Speaker 1: I had respect for you, that the fact that you

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Speaker 1: would report unbiasedly regardless of whether we were forming a

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Speaker 1: friendship or you knew me, and I respect journalism like that.

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Speaker 1: So that's where I'm comfortable in what you're doing on

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Speaker 1: the Terial investigation. And I've always said with the Teral investigation,

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Speaker 1: bring on an inquiry. I invite your scrutiny. In the

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Speaker 1: William Tyrell podcast, I've deliberately not got involved.

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Speaker 2: We're deliberately well you as much as we do interview you,

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Speaker 2: but you're not involved in No.

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Speaker 1: You interviewed me, and I think you apologized before we

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Speaker 1: walked into this very room. You said you might like

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Speaker 1: me after this and with the stuff that you put

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Speaker 1: to me. But from my position, and I challenge everyone

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Speaker 1: for this that unless you ask the hard questions, I

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Speaker 1: can't justify my position. So I didn't want it brushed over,

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Speaker 1: and I'm confident with the podcast you're going to do that.

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Speaker 1: The other thing about the Witness William Tyrell podcast, I've

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Speaker 1: seen how hard you've worked on it, and I haven't

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Speaker 1: stuck my nose and go what are you doing here?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing there? And I'm mainly listening to

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Speaker 1: the podcast episodes when they come out and available to

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Speaker 1: the public because I don't want to be involved, because

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Speaker 1: I want I don't want criticism saying I jub once

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Speaker 1: had his hands over this, so where it falls, it falls.

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Speaker 1: And I think when I'm talking from a police point

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Speaker 1: of view, when you're being handed the responsibility of investigating

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of a three year old child, you should

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Speaker 1: be accountable. You should be responsible, and if you've made mistakes,

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Speaker 1: they should be acknowledged and learned from. So that's my position.

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Speaker 1: So I think we can still be friends.

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Speaker 2: Are so far so far, but we actually haven't done

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Speaker 2: the episodes about you yet.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, Okay, no, Look, Dan, I invite it. It needs

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Speaker 1: to be scrutinized. It's too important.

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm with you one hundred percent. I think these

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Speaker 2: things do need to be scrutinized. And I think this case,

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Speaker 2: and particularly the fallout from the investigation, so in ten

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Speaker 2: years William's been missing, we're still in terms of the

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Speaker 2: public still have no idea what happened to him. Maybe

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Speaker 2: the police do, but if they do, they haven't charged anyone.

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Speaker 2: I think that does deserve scrutiny because it's it's like

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Speaker 2: a collective responsibility to say, what happened here and did

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Speaker 2: we get the response right? If only to stop it

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Speaker 2: happening again or help stop it happening again. That said,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be uncomfortable. I joke before that I'm

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Speaker 2: going to lose friends over this, but I will. I've

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Speaker 2: been aware of that for a while because any account

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Speaker 2: of the investigation into William Till's disappearance is going to

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Speaker 2: involve saying that some things weren't done well, and some

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Speaker 2: things weren't done well by the police, and some things

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Speaker 2: weren't done well by the media, and some things weren't

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Speaker 2: done well by the state government, particularly the foster care authorities.

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Speaker 2: And I know people in all of those groups, and

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Speaker 2: already there's one person who I thought we had a

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Speaker 2: really good professional relationship with who is no longer responding

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Speaker 2: to text messages. And that's fair enough. You know, people

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Speaker 2: get to make their own judge, but I don't really,

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Speaker 2: I don't really have any choice. I'm committed to doing

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Speaker 2: this the best way I know how, which won't be perfect,

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Speaker 2: and I'll make mistakes, and people have already spotted a

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Speaker 2: couple and pointed them out and we've corrected them. But

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Speaker 2: if I'm going to do this the best way I

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Speaker 2: know how, then it is going to be uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And look at the two I won't say

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Speaker 1: take a stand, that's not the right thing, but to

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Speaker 1: look at something in depth objectively, there is always going

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Speaker 1: to be collateral damage. That's the nature of what you do.

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Speaker 1: Hendley Thomas Teachers Pet, and I use that as a

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Speaker 1: reference point because I'd see here comfortably saying if the

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Speaker 1: podcast series Teachers Pet didn't occur, that that investigation wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been solved. That created an environment where the investigation

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Speaker 1: was solved. I think the landscape has changed greatly. And

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Speaker 1: I know this from being a police officer for thirty

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Speaker 1: four years that it was very insular in what came

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Speaker 1: out in the place. You had your contacts in the

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Speaker 1: in the media, and the senior place would be contacting

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Speaker 1: that brief briefing the media. It was very controlled. Podcasting

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Speaker 1: has turned that world upside down. Police can no longer

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Speaker 1: control a narrative. I think with Teacher's Pitt Place lost

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Speaker 1: control of the narrative there and look what resulted.

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Speaker 2: In One thing that was interesting about Teacher's Pet. And

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Speaker 2: I think I probably know this from maybe listening because

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Speaker 2: you interviewed Headley on this podcast, and maybe he was

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Speaker 2: talking about it then. But at the start, when Headley

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Speaker 2: was working on that. The police weren't cooperating at all,

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Speaker 2: which is basically standard, and that's fair enough. They're running

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Speaker 2: live homicide investigations. They got to control what said and

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Speaker 2: what's known to the best of their ability. So the

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Speaker 2: police weren't cooperating with Headley. But then you stop putting

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Speaker 2: the series out and things change because people see their

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Speaker 2: under scrutiny. And that's where we are. So we're two episodes.

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Speaker 2: Three episodes have been published so far. People now know

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Speaker 2: they're under scrutiny and people are coming forward. We're being

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Speaker 2: contacted with tips constantly, which is part of the reason

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Speaker 2: I'm so tired at the moment, because we're trying to

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Speaker 2: make the podcast but also investigate all this new stuff

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Speaker 2: that's coming in. And Hedley was doing the same, but

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Speaker 2: the big thing that changed with him was the police

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Speaker 2: came on board. So I remember Hegley saying he sat

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Speaker 2: down and had lunch with the then police commissioner Mick

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Speaker 2: Fuller and basically said, you guys aren't cooperating and explained

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Speaker 2: what he was doing and how he was doing it,

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Speaker 2: and the relationship changed. So where we are at the

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Speaker 2: moment is the police aren't talking to us, and I've

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Speaker 2: been in and I've sat down with different heads of

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Speaker 2: their media operation, because people have left the job and said,

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Speaker 2: this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it,

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Speaker 2: and how we're doing it, and these are the people

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Speaker 2: I want to talk to, and so far they are

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Speaker 2: saying nothing. But if we've got a common purpose, which

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Speaker 2: I do think we have, which is to try and

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Speaker 2: establish what was done right and wrong in the ten

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Speaker 2: years since William went missing, to hopefully stop it happening again,

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Speaker 2: then the more we can talk to the police and

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Speaker 2: the more they can at least engage with us, then

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Speaker 2: I think the better everyone is. That said, we are

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Speaker 2: being quite critical of them, well, you know, and what

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Speaker 2: I say in response to that, because I was part

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Speaker 2: of the investigation. There's a responsibility that comes with investigating

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Speaker 2: a three year old child. It's a big responsibility and

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Speaker 2: to step into that role you need to accept the

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Speaker 2: consequences of it. The police not cooperating on a podcast,

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Speaker 2: I can understand that. I'll give a benefit of doubt

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Speaker 2: on certain aspects.

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Speaker 1: With policing. Sometimes there is stuff that you want to

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Speaker 1: withhold and we're always cautious not to overstep the mark.

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Speaker 1: But We've got an investigation now ten years and there's

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Speaker 1: been missing for the public, the media, the police have

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Speaker 1: gone off in all different directions. It's chaotic. I look

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Speaker 1: from the sideline and I think I'm as confused as

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Speaker 1: the rest of the public about what's going on. When

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Speaker 1: I was involved in leading the investigation, part of my

433
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: responsibility was to keep the public informed, make appeals for witnesses,

434
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: and answer questions from the media. So there was no

435
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: address misinformation. Because there's a lot of rumors going around

436
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: when I was running, I haven't seen that for the past,

437
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: and it's now it's almost going on six years since

438
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: I've been off this investigation. I have not seen a

439
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: senior police officer stand there and take open questions about

440
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: the wim Tyrrell investigation.

441
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,239
Speaker 2: And you know the reason they're giving us. So at

442
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: the moment every episode I write, I send the cops

443
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: an email and say this is basically what we're going

444
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 2: to say. And every news story we write, because we're

445
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 2: also writing news stories for news dot com dot ae,

446
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: every one of those right to the cops and we

447
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: say this is what we're going to say. And every

448
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: time they write back and say we cannot comment because

449
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 2: there's an ongoing inquest, which is right, and the inquest

450
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: is going to have its next public hearing next month.

451
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: But what they're not doing, and what I've asked them

452
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: if they want to do, pretty much every single time,

453
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: is say, all right, let's have a conversation about what

454
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 2: you're saying. So I'm happy to say to them in

455
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: this upcoming news story or this upcoming episode, I'm broadly

456
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 2: going to say this, this, this, and this, and there's

457
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 2: no secrecy because it's all going to get made public

458
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: when it's published. But it gives them an opportunity to

459
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: tell me if I'm wrong, to say, well, actually you've

460
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: misunderstood that, you've got that fact wrong, so why don't

461
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: you correct that so at least the version that's going

462
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 2: out to the public is more accurate and for you

463
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: to be honest. The big part of the reason I'm

464
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: trying to talk to them is so that can happen,

465
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: so we can get the disinformation, the misinformation and corrected.

466
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: And hopefully there's none in our reporting, but it would

467
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: help if the police would engage on there. Just not

468
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: for me and maybe not for them, but both of

469
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: us would like people's understanding of this case to be

470
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: as accurate as possible, So if nothing else, I would

471
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: have thought they'd want to engage with that. But the

472
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: attitude at the moment is much more now, we're just

473
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: not going to say anything.

474
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: I call it like a hidden the sceand approach. And

475
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: that's interesting saying that, And this is my opinion, not yours.

476
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm amused by the fact that we're not commenting because

477
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: it's a meta before the coroner. But then they come

478
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: out and say there's only one suspect, or the senior

479
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: serving police officer as in the commission that comes out

480
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: and says there's only one suspect in this matter.

481
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: Well that is true. So the line we get is

482
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: we're not going to comment because it's an ongoing in quest.

483
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: But the lead detective detective Chief Inspector laid Law was

484
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 2: on TV admittedly a couple of years ago, but the

485
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: inquest was still going and he was asked, do you

486
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: know who did this? And he goes he's basically says, yeah,

487
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: we've got an idea who did this? And then you're

488
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: right that. Then Police Commissioner Mick Fuller is interviewed and

489
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: he confirms the police have one person they're particularly looking at.

490
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: And we know the police are speaking off the record

491
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: to different newspapers about the same thing. So there is

492
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: communication that's happening from the police about this case while

493
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 2: the inquest is ongoing. When they choose to communicate, and

494
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 2: it's not happening with us, And look, that's not sour grapes.

495
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: They can do whatever they like. They're running the homicide investigation.

496
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 2: That's a big, important job. But it's just different at

497
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: different times and in different cases.

498
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: All right, then I just check your not check you

499
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: on one thing, but just bring back one one point.

500
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: You're saying that you hope with the podcast that you know,

501
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: if there's failings in the investigation, they're identified so correct

502
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: that it doesn't happen again one hundred percent. But I

503
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: think we all, all the different parties and the people

504
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: that hate you like you, the people that hate me

505
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: like me, everyone, we all should the hot focus should

506
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: be on finding out what's happened to William Tyrol. Yeah,

507
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: And I think with a podcast, what you're doing, a

508
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: factual podcast, it really opens the door and it opens

509
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: the door to laying the facts out so people fully understand.

510
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: It has to set up the best possibility of getting

511
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: the result with the investigation.

512
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: Oh look, this is one thing I say to people.

513
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: So when I talk to people in my line of

514
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: work as a reporter, and I've had a conversation last

515
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: week which has said exactly the same thing. You're often

516
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: talking to people who are grieving a loss, and sometimes

517
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: with an unsolved thomicide. They're grieving a loss and they've

518
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 2: got they're grieving the lack of answers. They just don't

519
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: know why happened to their loved one. And I talked

520
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: to them and I say, look, you might talk to me,

521
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: we might do an interview, and probably nothing will change.

522
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: And I've got to be honest like that. I don't

523
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: have the ability to fix things as a journalist. All

524
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: I can really do is say this is the best

525
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: version of events is I've got it, and hopefully point

526
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: a spotlight to that. But it doesn't always make a difference.

527
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: Well, you're right, but in my experience solving homicides, it's

528
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: at one percent that little thing that can your across

529
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: the line.

530
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: You were always interested in that, you were much more

531
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: happy to talk to the media, and let's be honest,

532
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: you weren't doing it out of the goodness of your heart.

533
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: You were doing it because you saw the media as

534
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: a tool one hundred percent to use to help you

535
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: and what you were doing, which was trying to catch

536
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: a killer, probably I used as a tool. In fact,

537
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: definitely I got used as a tool. That how we

538
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: met was you asked the State Crime Command media officer

539
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: to put you in touch with some journalists to talk

540
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: about that Bower Ofville investigation because you wanted some publicity

541
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: around the case, probably because you worked on the basis

542
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: that more publicity around the case meant more political pressure,

543
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: meant more resources for your case. And I was one

544
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: of the journalists who came in and went, well, definitely

545
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to report on that. So did kind of

546
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 2: what you wanted. But I don't necessarily see that as

547
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: a bad thing.

548
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: I don't I look at it. And if you felt used,

549
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

550
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: No, I didn't feel used. I think I think we

551
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: both had to go into that again like with our

552
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: eyes open. Like definitely I wasn't there to do your

553
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: bidding one hundred percent not and I'm not now, but

554
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 2: I could see there was a public interest and reporting

555
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: on that case, you could see there was a public

556
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: interest in having the media report on that case, and

557
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: so it helped at that point that we had those

558
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: conversations I'm talking about that aren't happening at the William

559
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: Tyrell investigation now.

560
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: And look, I don't know what the mindset is in policing,

561
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: but as I learned my career as a major crime

562
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: detective and working with people that I respected, people that

563
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: were experienced major crime investigators, that the media was a

564
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: tool to use. It's in the tools of every other

565
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: thing that you use forensic evidence, you make appeals to

566
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: the media, you keep the public informed. It's a tool.

567
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way or

568
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: using but every time that I spoke, and particularly on

569
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: the William Tyrel matter, I spoke in consultation with a

570
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: forensic psychologist on what messaging to get out. When I'm

571
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: doing those doing the media, I'm making specific appeals. So yeah,

572
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: I think it is an important role. But just bringing

573
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: it back what we're talking about here with podcasts is

574
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: that police have lost control with podcasting because they don't

575
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: have the narrative. It was normally the media organizations and

576
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: whatever camp they are in, they could release information that way.

577
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: What's happened. Like with Hedley Thomas's Teacher's Pet Bearable, you

578
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 1: went a little bit rogue. You're reporting on things that

579
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: the police would make no comment on. It makes people

580
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: scrutinize the investigation. Then I can say, from an ex

581
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: cops point of view, scrutiny on an investigation is a

582
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: good thing.

583
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: You know what to do? You know what you have

584
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: to accept to do this job is you have to

585
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: accept that you're an outsider and you're going to stay

586
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: an outsider. So Hadley is some Queensland, was reporting on

587
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: a murder case in New South Wales. So by dint

588
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: of that, he's already a bit of an outsider. He's

589
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: not relying on the New South Wales Police every day,

590
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: Toma his stories and his contacts with this one. I've

591
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: got to accept that if I do this podcast we're

592
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 2: working on now about William ty Or, honestly, then maybe

593
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: there's going to be people who don't want to talk

594
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: to me afterwards, including maybe the New South Wales Police,

595
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: because we are critical and we're critical of the police

596
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: investigation right from the beginning. I mean right from day one.

597
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot that was done right, and there's some

598
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: that was done wrong, and we're going to say that,

599
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: but you've got to accept that that means they're not

600
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: going to help me out with stories in the future,

601
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: or there's always that possibility. I'm not saying they are

602
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: that petty, but there's that possibility they're not going to

603
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: want to talk.

604
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Well, isn't it, aren't they patheious?

605
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: Well that's kind of human nature, though that's charis but no.

606
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: But the thing is a lot of journalists don't necessarily

607
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: make that same judgment. And I'm not pointing out anyone

608
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 2: at the moment at all, but there are journalists out

609
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: there who rely on politicians, rely on institutions like the

610
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: cops to get their stories. And I've been there. I've

611
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: got stories from politicians and I've got stories from police forces.

612
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: And then when you find yourself working on a story

613
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: that's a bit critical, you do find yourself thinking, oh,

614
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: I write this, I might not get that next drop

615
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 2: of a story. But you have to accept that that

616
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 2: is going to happen, and you have to be happy

617
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: to be the outside.

618
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: I see that, and they understand what you're saying. I

619
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: just don't respect that. I don't respect the fact that

620
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: police who are public servants feel like they've got control

621
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: over what they'll release because it might reflect badly on them.

622
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: They're there to serve the public.

623
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: But if they are using the media, and I'm not

624
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 2: trying to pick a fight, but if they are using

625
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: the media to further their investigations like you used to,

626
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: then fine. But the thing is, like all of this

627
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: is done in the shadows, isn't it like that there's

628
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: no official rules of engagement. Maybe the police have got

629
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: a long book on media practices, but I'm sure it

630
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: doesn't include the off the record briefings that I know

631
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: happen because I've had them, and I'm sure it doesn't include,

632
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: you know, the very frank exchanges of information when it

633
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 2: suits the police. And I'd be amazed if it included

634
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: the fact that the police can basically decide who they

635
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: talk to because they think this journalist is more sympathetic

636
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: than the other. And all of that's fine, that's their job.

637
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: But as the journal you have to accept the reality

638
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: of all of that. And if you are going to

639
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: do this, and you're going to do it honestly, it

640
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: is going to mean possibly that people don't want to

641
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: talk to you afterwards.

642
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose for what it's worth. I respect the

643
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: journalists that yeah, I think the journalists I look up to,

644
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: and I've now been in there long enough to understand

645
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: who i'd like to I won't say follow, but adopt

646
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: the practices. Are the ones that have got the carriage

647
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: to report the truth. I thought that's what journalism is

648
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 1: all about. And in regards to police, like what you're

649
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: going to because it doesn't reflect well on you, you're

650
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: going to withhold that from the media.

651
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: But that's the problem with it all being done in

652
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: the shadows, isn't it. Like if it's all done informally

653
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: through these bluntly, fairly cozy relationships, then there's no way

654
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 2: of knowing if the police are doing this engagement with

655
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: the media because it's in the interest of the investigation,

656
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 2: or they're doing it because it's in their own interests.

657
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: And look, you've got to be really honest, particularly in

658
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: New South Wales, and I do have some experience of

659
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 2: this because I've been a crime reporter in New South

660
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: Wales for a long time. The police in the media

661
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: have a really cozy relationship. We're really tight and the

662
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: New South Wales police leaks like a sieve, and as

663
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: a journalist that's great, but it means they have the

664
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: ability to leak like a sieve to certain journalists and

665
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: they get to choose who they do work with. Anyway,

666
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: I'm not complain I'm definitely not complaining. I'm definitely not

667
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: saying I'm bitter about it. But it is the reality

668
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: of it, and it has affected this investigation into William

669
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 2: Thiol's disappearance.

670
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, look, I'm probably burning bridges for you as

671
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: we keep talking.

672
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: I seem to be merrily burning the.

673
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: Look, Dan, let me give you some advice. I've basically

674
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 1: burn every bridge I've.

675
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: Ever walked down.

676
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,959
Speaker 1: Well, I keep moving forward because you can't go back.

677
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: It's probably not the best practice.

678
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: Okay, So just one thing that is worth flagging on

679
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: this whole thing about leaking to the press. You've been

680
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: accused of that time and time and time again. Yeah,

681
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: and I've spoken to people in the course of making

682
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: this podcast who have swarm blind to me that you've

683
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: leaked X to Y as a detective, and it's been

684
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: said in court. I've sat in court when people have

685
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: been talking about how you leaked. No one ever actually

686
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 2: asked you in court. But he's been said about you.

687
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: I know from the limited dealings I had with you

688
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: that you didn't leak to me, because I tried to

689
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: get you to leak more than once, and I tried

690
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: quite hard sometimes and you didn't. But I'd be remiss

691
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: if I didn't flag that people have accused you of

692
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: the thing I'm accusing.

693
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: Others of speculation here. And sometimes if you don't know

694
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: the answer, shouldn't ask the question. I learned that, but

695
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask this question. Has anyone said directly

696
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: I leaked, like a journalist said directly?

697
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: I know, But there's a problem. Like journalists, it's kind

698
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: of like an ethica, I can't ask each other. But

699
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: as an example, sorry to interrupt, and we can talk

700
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 2: about this all now because it's all come out and

701
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: it's all been made public. One of in fact, the

702
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: early we can call him this because he's subsequently been

703
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: found to be completely not guilty of anything to do

704
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: with William's disappearance. But one of the first high profile

705
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: suspects in that case was a guy called Bill Spedding,

706
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: who was a local washing machine repair man, and one

707
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: of the things the police found when they raided his

708
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: home and his business and searched his cars. Was a

709
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: Spider Man toy in his work fan and that was

710
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,280
Speaker 2: significant because William Tool was wearing a Spider Man suit

711
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: at the time he went missing, or at least it

712
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 2: was thought to be significant. Now that subsequently came out

713
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: in the papers, and I don't know how it got out,

714
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: and people have speculated it was a deliberate leak from yourself.

715
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: I've seen that speculation. But the one thing I do

716
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 2: know is I found out about that Spider Man toy

717
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: from talking to another cop who wasn't on the strike force,

718
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: who wasn't even in homicide, because it was obviously just

719
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: chatter around the police force. And he mentioned it to

720
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 2: me over a coffee and I tried to get you

721
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 2: to confirm it. I can remember the conversation. We were

722
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: actually up near Kendall on the mid North Coast where

723
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: William went miss and I'd been told this and I

724
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: tried to get you to confirm it so I could

725
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: write it, and you asked me please don't report that

726
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: because it was sensitive for the investigation, and as a result,

727
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 2: I didn't report it because the most important thing was

728
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: that the investigation did its best job to try and

729
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: find William and if I was going to trip that up,

730
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: then I didn't want to part of that. So all

731
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: I do know is that when I have tried to

732
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: get you to leak, and that's an example, you've actually

733
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: refused to and then said if you think that's true,

734
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: please don't report it.

735
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for saying that, Dan, And I just want

736
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: to wind it back because you know, when I talk

737
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: about the start, we're talking about the rumor, speculation, the

738
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: neuendos that flow with the Ural investigation. I've been accused

739
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: of so many things. And I say here and this

740
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: is going out to all the public that listen, it's

741
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: going out to the police, that's going out of the journalists.

742
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: I defy any journalists to put their hand up and

743
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: say I leaked information to them, because because I haven't

744
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: leaked the information, and the fact that I wasn't going

745
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: to get emotional or cranky during this podcast, but as

746
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: we talked about the wim Tural matter evokes that type

747
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: of response. I ran that investigation for four years. There

748
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: weren't leaks going when I was running the investigator. There

749
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: were from someone on which issue. So when Bill Spedding

750
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: got arrested. There was a leak that that was going

751
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: to happen, because the morning before he got arrested, pretty

752
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: much every media organization was waiting outside his house.

753
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: And I know because I was there, and I know

754
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,839
Speaker 2: you've been accused in court of leaking that.

755
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: And you heard me give evidence under oath.

756
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: No, because no one asked you about that.

757
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: Did you get I got I asked, I got asked

758
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: questions about that.

759
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what did you say?

760
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: I said, it wasn't released by me, and I'm confident

761
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: that wasn't people under me.

762
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: In that case. It's come up in two different court

763
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: matters because I was thinking of another one where this

764
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: was talked about and was basically said that you leaked that.

765
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: I know that I got that from another journalist and

766
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: it was it was kind of chatter, Oh, you know,

767
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding is going to get arrested on such and

768
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 2: such a date. You might want to be there. And

769
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: I remember calling you up again and trying to get

770
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 2: you to confirm it, and you wouldn't. It's really I

771
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: was really frustrated that you wouldn't, because I basically had

772
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: to go to my editor and say, I think this

773
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: is happening. We should definitely pay for the flight to

774
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: get me there. But all I can substantiate that with

775
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 2: is that another journal told me. Yeah, it turns out

776
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: it was right. So someone was leaking.

777
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: So someone was leaking. But that Bill Spedding situation, the

778
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: arrests there, I think for the four years that I

779
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: read the investigation, that wasn't names throwing out. This person's

780
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: a suspect. And I think since you've done a deep

781
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: dive into the investigation, you'd get a sense of how

782
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: many people we were looking at during that four year period. Yeah,

783
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: never ever came out.

784
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, other names that didn't come out. Yeah, point that's true.

785
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: And the other thing I should say is Bill Spedding

786
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: was arrested for unrelated offenses, which he was subsequently found

787
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: not guilty of. Bill Spedding has never been charged in

788
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 2: relation to William Teal's disappearance. No evidence has ever come

789
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: to light that he was in any way involved in

790
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: or had any knowledge of William's disappearance. He's always protested

791
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: his innocence. He has said he's got an alibi that

792
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: he was at the school watching one of his kids

793
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: get an award. There's evidence to support that alibi. He's

794
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: known to have made a payment in the cafe across

795
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 2: the road. There is, frankly, nothing that I have seen

796
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 2: that the police have come forward with to suggest he

797
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: was involved at all. And this is the point where

798
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 2: we might fall out. That was an investigation that you oversaw,

799
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: and it was subsequently described is the worst case of

800
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 2: malicious prosecution in the state.

801
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I've had the conversation with you

802
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: that hit me harder than when I was criminally charged,

803
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: like saying a malicious prosecution. I've said my evidence at court.

804
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how far I can push what I

805
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: want to say about that. But the way that position

806
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: was defended, I, in my humble opinion, think it could

807
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,240
Speaker 1: have been defended in a different, different way. And again,

808
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: and people are probably sick of hearing me say this,

809
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: I stand by what I did on the investigation and

810
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: ivite proper scrutiny not Courts can only make decisions based

811
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: on the information that's provided to them and probably enough

812
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: said that moved on from that, but point not, well,

813
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make a point. I want to

814
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: talk about your podcast. But again, I think what our

815
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: conversation just said it reflects so many people have got opinions.

816
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: There's misinformation floating around, and what I sincerely hope and

817
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: this is why I keep putting my hand up and say,

818
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: let's have a parliamentary inquiry, Let's have a public inquiry,

819
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: because I'm sick of the misinformation not just impacting on me,

820
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: impacting on other people more importantly, whims, foster parents and

821
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: biological parents of misinformation going around. So I'm hoping, hoping

822
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: that your podcast will shine the light on it. You

823
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: said you've been working on it for two years. Give

824
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: us a sense of the magnitude of what you do,

825
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: because I've seen how you work, and I've got to

826
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: say this, Dan, you would have made a good homicide detective.

827
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: Ah, that's very coming. But I don't know. That's a

828
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: hard job. I've seen anyway, that's a side issue. Homicide

829
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: detectives work hard. But this, I've never done anything like this.

830
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: I mean I've done I've worked hard on other cases before,

831
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 2: for podcasts and books, but the scale of this is

832
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: unlike anything else. Just to give you an idea, just

833
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: a sheer number of documents and it is literally folders

834
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: and folders and folders full of documents and dozens and

835
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of interviews, and to give you an

836
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: idea of just how much information we're trying to process.

837
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: One of the things I really like to do with

838
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: these long investigations is just build up a timeline, just

839
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 2: bullet points. You know, this happened, then that happened, then

840
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: that happened, then that happened, and put a footnote at

841
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: the end of each bullet point saying, this is the

842
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: source of that fact, and it's always got to be

843
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: a primary source. It's not a newspaper article or another report.

844
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: It's you know, witness statement, it's a court transcript or

845
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 2: an interview we've done. So just that timeline, that list

846
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: of bullet points is currently at something over one hundred

847
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: and sixty thousand words, So that's the length of two

848
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: entire books, and that's our starting point. You know, from

849
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: there you can follow the footnotes to of those documents

850
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: or to the interview we've done. And it's massive and

851
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: it's overwhelming, and that's also probably part of the reason

852
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: I'm so tired right at the moment, because we are

853
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: working through that. But that is kind of like the

854
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: keystone in what we do. From everything there. We can

855
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: write those episodes, we can write those new stories because

856
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: we know we've got our facts as best we can

857
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: laid out in order. But yeah, I and the people

858
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 2: I'm working with, and there's several of us working on this,

859
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: I've never worked on anything as big or as complicated

860
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: as this.

861
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: And I think the nature of this investigation, like this

862
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: is organized crime investigations, there can be a lot of

863
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: different pathways, different layers to that. This is complex in

864
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: that the starting point with Whim's disappearance, no forensic evidence,

865
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: no eyewitness Well.

866
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: That's the thing, isn't it. Like, Actually, this shouldn't be

867
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: that complicated. It's not an organized crime. It's not a

868
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: financial crime, which is you know, huge amounts of financial

869
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: reports and data. This was one child going missing. It

870
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: shouldn't be that complicated to what it's become now. And

871
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 2: a big part of that goes back to what you

872
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: just said. There's no forensic evidence. And part of the

873
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: reason there's no forensic evidence is when William went missing,

874
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: it was treated as a little boy lost. The police

875
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: were on the scene within minutes, like hugely impressive response,

876
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: and they called in other officers, they called in mounted police,

877
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: cops on trail bikes, they called in the sees, they

878
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: had a helicopter up, they called in divers. Hundreds and

879
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: hundreds of people just volunteered their time to look for William.

880
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 2: And that's all incredible. But the one thing that wasn't

881
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: done was a crime scene established. So I've spoken to

882
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 2: people who were there that day and they talk about

883
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: people just walking over the lawn in and out of

884
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: house where William went missing, cars being allowed to drive

885
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 2: up and down the road with no one checking who

886
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: was in them or where they were going, or taking

887
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: note of the regio plates. And as a result, that moment,

888
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: when there would have been some forensic evidence, if there

889
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 2: was going to be any, and let's be honest, there

890
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: usually is, all of that was lost. It either wasn't

891
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: collected or it was literally trampled into the dirt beneath

892
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: the feet of the well meaning people who were looking

893
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: for William because they thought he'd walked off.

894
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: Look, I'm sitting there listening and that I'm agreeing with

895
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 1: everything you're saying. And I've been asked questions in the

896
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: past about that and the focus, the primary focus was

897
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: on looking for the little boy loss, which in ninety

898
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: nine point nine the central time they find the child.

899
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: In those circumstances, I'm.

900
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 2: Not look, you know, I was. It's dead easy for

901
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: me being the journalist, because I get to just say, well,

902
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: that was done wrong. I don't have to be the

903
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 2: person on the scene, the inspector who's coordinating that massive

904
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: response and is responsible for it. I don't have to

905
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: be that person. So it's really easy for me to criticize.

906
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: But it was done with the best will in the world. Fine,

907
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 2: it was done under incredible pressure and everyone's concentrating on

908
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: finding a missing boy, but the fact remains there's no

909
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: forensic evidence, and that meant the investigation was struggling from

910
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: the start.

911
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: It made it harder. And I can obviously speak of

912
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: that from my homicide experience. I made recommendations in accountable documents,

913
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: progress reports and different things that we've got to look

914
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: at the SAPs for that type of situation standing operating procedure.

915
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: Yes that I was making this as strong as I could,

916
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: and the recommendations that when a situation presents itself like

917
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 1: that concurrently running independent of the search operation, there should

918
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: be a criminal investig that might be after the first

919
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 1: hour if the child hasn't been found, detective should be

920
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: called out and they start running a criminal investigation.

921
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, you are right on that on

922
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: this one. I think there were detectives, local detectives on

923
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 2: the scene looking at the investigation within about four hours. Yeah,

924
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 2: so going through the police records, they were there. But

925
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: still the focus is on has William wandered off? And

926
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: strangely that seemed to still be the focus for weeks,

927
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 2: or at least there was confusion over what the focus

928
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: is because the case is given to the homicide squad

929
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: about a week after William goes missing. But after that

930
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 2: you've got the local police commander is still doing all

931
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: the media interviews and it's still saying and I was

932
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: checking this this morning, he's still saying, well, it might

933
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 2: be a kid who's wandered off, or it might be

934
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 2: human intervention. We don't know. And so you've got these

935
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: mixed messages like who's in charge? Is it the locale,

936
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 2: is it the homicide squad? What really is the focus

937
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: in this investigation? It doesn't have that kind of laser

938
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 2: like focus on this could be a homicide. We need

939
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 2: to gather all the information and shut this down. And

940
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: control the public perception of this. So it felt like

941
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 2: there was a lot of confusion.

942
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: Dan look in sitting down with you the day, I

943
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: want to give people an understanding of what's going to

944
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: be presented with the podcast series that you've done, but

945
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,839
Speaker 1: you've touched on things and I can't help but offer

946
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: an opinion. I've been sitting on the sidelines for a

947
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: long time, and I think, yeah, it's been ten years

948
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: since we have disappeared, over ten years now. When I

949
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: took over the investigation five months after the very thing

950
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: that you talked about there I identified as a problem.

951
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: And that's where I made a conscious decision saying, hey,

952
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: homicide is running this investigation. I'm running this investigation. That

953
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: wasn't a strake. My ego that was to get control

954
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: of an investigation that was the wrong messaging was going out.

955
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: We needed to get that laser focus, as you said,

956
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it,

957
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: and put the pressure on the person or persons that

958
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: might be have knowledge or involvement of William's disappearance.

959
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 2: So I guess that's the reason for it, isn't it.

960
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 2: Because I remember being a reporter and covering the case

961
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 2: at the time, and we didn't know who was in charge.

962
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: Was it homicide? Was it the local police? Who were

963
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: they looking at? And if you've got the local police

964
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 2: commander saying bluntly saying, we don't know what happened. It

965
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: could be this, it could be that, then whoever is

966
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,839
Speaker 2: responsible isn't feeling the pressure. They're feeling like they might

967
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: have got away with it, and that changes what they do,

968
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: and it changes what the people around them who might

969
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: know something do. And that's when I talk about messaging.

970
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: I don't you know, I'm not talking about pr here.

971
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm talking about was there an opportunity missed to put

972
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: that pressure on to basically use the media to speak

973
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: to that person or the people who know them and

974
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 2: say we're coming for you. We're going to get you,

975
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 2: just in case they slip up.

976
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, Dan, and again I'm not sure if it comes

977
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: out in your podcast, but I got a certain amount

978
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: of criticism for going out of aggressively with the media

979
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: when I said, anyone move in a square kilometer that

980
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: hasn't come forward, I'm wondering why you haven't come forward.

981
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: We're going to be looking at you. I've got a

982
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,879
Speaker 1: lot of complaints about that, the members of the public going,

983
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: how dare you accuse us of this? But that was

984
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: done for a reason. That was an aggressive strategy to

985
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: flush people out and put pressure on.

986
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look again, it's really easy for me to

987
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: criticize things that aren't done, and it's you know, it's

988
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 2: easy for you to sit here and say, I think

989
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 2: that should be a public inquiry. It's possible that we're

990
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: wrong and that the current police who've been working on

991
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 2: it for the past five and a bit years, have

992
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 2: identified the right suspect and have gathered all of the

993
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,439
Speaker 2: evidence they need and are any moment about to crack

994
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 2: this case wide open, and that will prove them right

995
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: and us wrong. But if they've done that, then why

996
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 2: haven't they done it yet? Why haven't they charged someone?

997
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: Why haven't they made public what they know by going

998
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 2: to a court and saying this is the evidence we've got.

999
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: Why are they still sitting on it? You've got an inquest.

1000
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: It's all going to come to a head in the

1001
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 2: next couple of months. The inquest has got hearing in

1002
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: November and hearing in December, and I don't see how

1003
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 2: those hearings can happen without the police having to basically

1004
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: say this is what we've been doing, this is the

1005
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 2: evidence we've got. And if we do get to the

1006
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: end of that and we still don't know what happened

1007
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 2: to William a decade on, and we do know that

1008
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: several lives we talked about Bill Spedding, several lives have

1009
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 2: been damaged by the police investigation, then yeah, I'm with you.

1010
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: I think if we get to that point, there does

1011
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 2: need to be a public inquiry and some kind of

1012
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 2: public reckoning.

1013
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 1: Well, an inquest in effect is a public inquiry.

1014
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: It is, but it's not looking at the police investigation.

1015
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: That's true, that's true.

1016
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: Has specifically said I'm not looking at the police investigation.

1017
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: That is true, but I'm hoping answers information that comes out.

1018
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: So with the investigation that you've done and the work

1019
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: that you've done on the podcast, are you surprised by

1020
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: some of the things that you've come across.

1021
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really have been. I knew the case because

1022
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 2: I worked on it at the time and probably for

1023
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 2: a few years, and then when we were co writing

1024
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: your books, A big part of those was the William

1025
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: Tooele investigation because it was the case that did lead

1026
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 2: essentially to the end of your career in the police,

1027
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 2: so we had to include it. And then again because

1028
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 2: you got publicly criticized by Mick Fuller, the then police commissioner,

1029
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 2: we had to change the way we wrote one of

1030
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 2: those books because we weren't planning on right in the

1031
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 2: second one and mentioning the William tool case at all,

1032
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 2: and then he came out and publicly criticizes you, and

1033
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 2: it felt strange not to be including that if you're

1034
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: now publicly identified with getting this case wrong and you

1035
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 2: put out a book and pretend that that hasn't been said.

1036
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 2: So we changed that book and we put the William

1037
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 2: tool case back in. So I've been reporting on this

1038
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: case in different ways for a long time over the

1039
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 2: past decade, and even then, the stuff we've heard in

1040
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: the last two years has surprised me, and it's been

1041
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: it's not been a good series of surprises. I haven't

1042
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: been surprised by how well everything's been doing. But like

1043
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: the one that stands out is what I've learned about

1044
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 2: how the unsolved homicide team work. Because when I used

1045
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 2: to be a crime report I had a huge amount

1046
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 2: of respect for new South Wales Police probably too much.

1047
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 2: And probably a bit of that was because I did

1048
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 2: get stories from them and I thought the Unsolved Homicide

1049
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: Team was part of the homicide squad and they did

1050
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 2: a great job catching the bad guys and then working

1051
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 2: on this, I've learned more about how the Unsolved Homicide

1052
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: Team works and some of this was made public. In fact,

1053
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: a lot of it was made public by a Special

1054
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 2: Commission of Inquiry last year. We're talking about missing evidence,

1055
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: not just bits of evidence, but palette loads of evidence

1056
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 2: that the police didn't know they had. We're talking about

1057
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: cases that have gone for decades because bits of paper

1058
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: were left in a pocket and had never been no

1059
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 2: by police. We're talking about DNA tests that weren't done

1060
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 2: even after the technology became available. They've got a backlog

1061
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: of cases that they haven't looked at. It's about four

1062
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: hundred cases haven't ever even looked at them. And yeah,

1063
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: they're working on all of those things, and you know

1064
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 2: they're trying to get it better now since that inquiry.

1065
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: But the one that really sticks out is the detective

1066
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: who's now leading the investigation to William Till's disappearance, David

1067
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 2: Laidlaw is from the Unsolved Homicide team. He's one of

1068
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 2: the most senior people in that team. He's the investigations coordinator.

1069
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 2: He has had nineteen files of unsolved homicides sitting on

1070
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 2: his desk for a year, which he hasn't opened. And

1071
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: these are files that other detectives have gone through and

1072
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 2: said I think you should have a look at this,

1073
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 2: and it goes to him to decide whether they take

1074
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 2: it to the next step and maybe reinvestigate it. Files

1075
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: sitting on his desk gathering dust which he hasn't opened

1076
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 2: for a year. So that's nineteen families who don't know

1077
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 2: what happened to their loved one. And he was asked

1078
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: in the Special Commission of Inquiry, why why have you

1079
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 2: not opened them? And he said, while I was busy

1080
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 2: mostly with the William Toole investigation. And they said to him, well,

1081
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: did you tell anyone about that? And he said no.

1082
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 2: He said did you ask for any other resources to

1083
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 2: work on that? And he said no, And they said

1084
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 2: why not and he said, I don't know. That shocked

1085
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: me that I get he's busy. I get he's working

1086
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,439
Speaker 2: on the William tool investigation. But in the past few

1087
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 2: years I've seen him sitting in court for fairly minor

1088
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: matters as part of this investigation, day after day after

1089
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 2: day after day. I think thirteen days I counted them.

1090
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: So he's had all those files sitting on his desk

1091
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 2: and he's chosen not to open them because he's looking elsewhere,

1092
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: and he's not asked for any help to open them.

1093
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: And that did shock me. I can't imagine what those

1094
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 2: nineteen families who sat there not knowing that no one

1095
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 2: was looking at their loved one's case. I can't imagine

1096
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: what they felt.

1097
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: It's cruel, really, it's And I can speak speak with

1098
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: confidence with dealing with victims families in homicides that that

1099
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: type of thing is soul destroye. They suffer from losing

1100
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: their loved one and then suffer if it's not being

1101
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: followed up properly. And it's a difficult world to work in.

1102
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: But I suppose the relevance of that, And this is

1103
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm looking from the outside, the relevance of, Yeah, the

1104
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: inefficiencies or what was happening with unsolved homicide. Willim's foster

1105
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: mother when she gave evidence at my court matter, when

1106
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: I was charged, charged, convicted, appealed, still convicted. So I

1107
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: put that out there and people have heard the story enough.

1108
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: She gave evidence, and part of her concern was if

1109
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: I was taken off the investigation, the mother was going

1110
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: to be referred to unsolved homicide and you're looking at

1111
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: unsolved homicide because well, are they legitimate concerns or yeah?

1112
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 1: Is it good that that went there?

1113
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: Well, that's it. I was in court when she said that,

1114
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 2: and I remember hearing her say it. She had this

1115
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 2: fear that William's case would be sent to unsolved homicide,

1116
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: and I from memory, I think she was told it

1117
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: was going to be by a senior officer, and at

1118
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: that point I remember thinking, oh, yeah, but the unsolved

1119
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: homicide team are pretty good, because I still thought that,

1120
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, I thought the homicide squad were great. I

1121
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 2: thought the unsolved Homicide team were part of that, and

1122
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: they were great too, And in fairness, I have met

1123
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: one or two unsolved homicide detectives subsequently who've been great,

1124
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: and so I thought that maybe her fears were a

1125
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 2: bit overblown. But then what I've learned in the past

1126
01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 2: two years working on this investigation, her fears were completely accurate.

1127
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 2: Missing evidence cases, you've never reviewed cases that will take

1128
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: years and years and years for them to even open

1129
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 2: the file. William's foster mother was right to be frightened

1130
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 2: that a case ends up there, and that is shocking.

1131
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: And I think you look at now, we're five and

1132
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: a half years since I've been taken off, or almost

1133
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: six years since I've been taken off. Part of my

1134
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: battle when I was running the investigation was that they

1135
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 1: wanted to shut it down and get it to unsolved

1136
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: Thomas side. And now I look and all there's been

1137
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: supposedly five and a half years more work to do

1138
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: on an investigation they wanted to shut down when I

1139
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 1: was running.

1140
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,479
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I want you know, one thing the cops

1141
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 2: have said to us, because we wrote about these nineteen

1142
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: cases gathering dust. The one thing the cops did say

1143
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 2: was they said, we're not going to talk about William

1144
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 2: Tiol other than to say WILLIAMS. Toiol's case has never

1145
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 2: been formally refined to the Unsolved Homicide Team. And so

1146
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 2: I wrote back, and I said, that is true, but

1147
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 2: the guy running William Tool's investigation is in the Unsolved

1148
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: Homicide Team, and so are some of the other people

1149
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: on the William Tool strike Force, and they said, yes,

1150
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 2: that's true. So it's not formally an unsolved homicide, but

1151
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 2: it is unsolved homicide detectives who are working it's.

1152
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: These are the layers of the William Tyrell investigation. I

1153
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: haven't finished with your Dan. Look, we're gonna we'll have

1154
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: a break, and then when we get back, I just

1155
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: want to get more of a sense of the podcast,

1156
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: what people are to expect, and hopefully shed some light

1157
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: on I think it's fair to say this is the

1158
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,520
Speaker 1: country's one of the country's biggest mysteries, isn't it.

1159
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: I think it's the biggest case that I've covered, and

1160
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: I think it's the most high profile case in the

1161
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 2: country in the last ten years. Yeah, nothing has come

1162
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 2: a place.

1163
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: I look at it. Everyone can identify with William and

1164
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 1: the circumstances of disappearing in your grandparents place, playing and

1165
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: safe space. So okay, we'll take a break and we'll

1166
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 1: get back shortly.

1167
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 2: Mm hmm