Speaker 1: I grew up with science fiction flash Gordon buck Rogers.
Speaker 2: What play thing can you offer me today?
Speaker 1: An obscure body in the sc system, your majesty.
Speaker 3: The inhabitants refer to it as the planet Earth.
Speaker 1: I was a little boy before there was a space program.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember watching the V two rockets get
Speaker 1: launched out in the Western desert, and then I saw
Speaker 1: spootn It go up. I saw the first astronauts, and
Speaker 1: you know, like every red blooded American kid, I thought
Speaker 1: it'd be great to be an astronaut and go in space.
Speaker 3: Tomorrow, forming NASA astronaut and Jeffrey Hoffman, we'll be watching
Speaker 3: the Artemis two shuttle takeoff from the Kennedy Space Center
Speaker 3: in Florida. It's NASA's first journey back to the Moon
Speaker 3: in almost fifty years. It's a voyage deep into space,
Speaker 3: but it won't land. The spacecraft will fly past the Moon.
Speaker 1: Everybody who comes back from space will tell you that
Speaker 1: this feeling of weightlessness, the ability to look out the
Speaker 1: windows at the Earth and see are planet in a
Speaker 1: completely new perspective, is also one of the unique aspects
Speaker 1: of space play, and.
Speaker 3: Looming over it all is the great Space race. I'm
Speaker 3: Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today Jeffrey Hoffman,
Speaker 3: who flew five Shuttle missions, on why Artemis matters, When
Speaker 3: will humans land on the Moon again and who will
Speaker 3: get there first? The US for China. It's Wednesday, April one, Jeff.
Speaker 3: The last time people went to the Moon was Apollo seventeen,
Speaker 3: and that was decades ago. We now have the countdown
Speaker 3: on Finessa to fly past the Moon this week. How
Speaker 3: will that mission work and what will we actually see?
Speaker 1: Well, I wish we could see what they're going to see,
Speaker 1: because they're going to be farther away from the Earth,
Speaker 1: in fact, than any human beings have been before, about
Speaker 1: twenty five hundred kilometers further out than Apollo thirteen, which
Speaker 1: had the previous record, and they'll have a beautiful view
Speaker 1: back towards the Moon and the Earth. What we'll see,
Speaker 1: of course, is after the launch, they'll go into Earth
Speaker 1: orbit for a little while just to check out all
Speaker 1: their systems, and then translunar injection and they'll be on
Speaker 1: their way to the Moon. It's important to recognize they
Speaker 1: will be on what's called a free return trajectory, which
Speaker 1: is the way the first few Apollo missions were launched,
Speaker 1: and this means that they'll be in an orbit such
Speaker 1: that if their propulsion should fail, the Moon's gravity will
Speaker 1: swing them around and send them back to the Earth.
Speaker 1: So they'll swing around the Moon once and then come
Speaker 1: right back to the Earth and the whole mission will
Speaker 1: last about ten days.
Speaker 3: So, Jeff, if this launch all goes to plan, what
Speaker 3: is it that it will have actually achieved and what
Speaker 3: would come next? Where do you go from here?
Speaker 1: Well, the original plan was that Artemis IIIE was going
Speaker 1: to actually land on the Moon. There were many of
Speaker 1: us who were a little concerned that there wasn't actually
Speaker 1: nearly the amount of testing of the hardware in space
Speaker 1: that we had in the Apollo program. And I'm glad
Speaker 1: to say that NASA has now instituded one more Artemis
Speaker 1: mission before the attempted lunar landing, and so Artemis three
Speaker 1: will be in Earth orbit to actually test a lot
Speaker 1: of the hardware which is going to be used. Space
Speaker 1: is a very unforgiving environment, and that's why we just
Speaker 1: test and we test and we test before the actual mission.
Speaker 1: And that's what this is. It's it's basically a test
Speaker 1: flight like the early Apollo missions were. You know, we
Speaker 1: had Apollo seven, eight nine, you know, all those flights
Speaker 1: before we got to Apollo eleven and actually landed on
Speaker 1: the Moon.
Speaker 4: Three two one zero, all engine running lipt off. We
Speaker 4: have a liptop thirty two minutes past the hour lipped
Speaker 4: off on Apollow eleven.
Speaker 3: So when will we see NASA actually in a position
Speaker 3: where it's ready to land people on the and again.
Speaker 1: Up on all the land on a land Well, I
Speaker 1: wish I could tell you. What I can tell you
Speaker 1: is they're working as fast as they can to get
Speaker 1: ready for Artemis three, which, as I said, will be
Speaker 1: in Earth orbit to test a lot of the hardware
Speaker 1: which will be used in the future. And the other
Speaker 1: thing that we're waiting on. And this is another difference
Speaker 1: between Apollo and Artemis. In Apollo, the Saturn five rocket
Speaker 1: was able to with a single launch send not only
Speaker 1: the Apollo module to the Moon, but the lunar lander
Speaker 1: and everything that the crew needed to land on the
Speaker 1: Moon and get back. Artemis cannot do that. It does
Speaker 1: not have the capability of carrying a lander all the
Speaker 1: way to the surface of the Moon. It can't actually
Speaker 1: send as much mass to the Moon as we were
Speaker 1: able to do in Apollo, and so the Artemis Lunar
Speaker 1: landing mission will use the Orion capsule to take people
Speaker 1: to the vicinity of the Moon. But the current architecture
Speaker 1: is they will then be picked up either by a
Speaker 1: SpaceX starship or by a Blue Origin lunar lander, and
Speaker 1: that will take the crew to the ground. Artemis has
Speaker 1: the capability of taking people close to the Moon, but
Speaker 1: they'll need some help to get them actually down to
Speaker 1: the surface.
Speaker 3: Now, Jeff NASA's budget has been a major political issue
Speaker 3: for years. It had those two Shuttle disasters. Does the
Speaker 3: Challenger in Columbia?
Speaker 2: You saw it just a few moments ago, about forty
Speaker 2: five seconds after leftoff, a huge fireball in the sky.
Speaker 4: We have a report from the flight dynamics officer that
Speaker 4: the vehicle has exploded.
Speaker 1: Flight director confirms there.
Speaker 3: And at one stage we had President Trump proposing to
Speaker 3: slash its budget by twenty five percent. This mission has
Speaker 3: also been delayed a number of times. So, more broadly,
Speaker 3: how much pressure is the space program under in the US?
Speaker 1: Well, at the moment I think people well hopefully they
Speaker 1: will pay some attention to the launch, but the space
Speaker 1: program certainly does not occupy anything like the fraction of
Speaker 1: the budget that Apollo did. You know, Apollo was done
Speaker 1: as part of a Cold war competition with the Soviet Union.
Speaker 1: You know, who would get first into space, who would
Speaker 1: be the first to land on the moon. We're not
Speaker 1: in that kind of a competition anymore.
Speaker 2: We choose to go to the Moon and this decay
Speaker 2: and do the other things, not because they are easy,
Speaker 2: but because they are hard, because that goal will serve
Speaker 2: to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills,
Speaker 2: because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept,
Speaker 2: one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend
Speaker 2: to win. And the others too.
Speaker 1: I will say, despite Trump's original threat to cut NASA's budget,
Speaker 1: Congress has been very supportive. NASA doesn't have anywhere like
Speaker 1: the budget that it did back in the Apollo era,
Speaker 1: and that's been one of the challenges, is to go
Speaker 1: back to the Moon without an Apollo budget, and that's
Speaker 1: why you see delays. And I think that NASA has
Speaker 1: the support in Congress that it will need. So I
Speaker 1: don't think that it's NASA's budget which is really gonna
Speaker 1: be holding us up. If we can get through the
Speaker 1: next to Hartemis test flights without any major problems, then
Speaker 1: we should be ready to land on the Moon, I hope.
Speaker 3: So coming up who will land on the Moon first?
Speaker 5: Again? This launch is yet another step in a growing
Speaker 5: space race, a battle which could even decide who owns
Speaker 5: the Moon, Jeff.
Speaker 3: Over the last couple of years, the leaders of NASA
Speaker 3: have been raising concern also about the US China space race,
Speaker 3: especially the min straight at Jared Isaacman.
Speaker 4: This is not the time for delay, but a time
Speaker 4: for action, because if we fall behind, if we make
Speaker 4: a mistake, we may never catch up, and the consequences
Speaker 4: could shift the balance and power here on Earth.
Speaker 3: Could you tell us about their competing programs to try
Speaker 3: and establish the first permanent crude presence by the early
Speaker 3: twenty thirties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very impressed by what the Chinese have been
Speaker 1: able to accomplish in space. They've gone through a lot
Speaker 1: of the stages that the US and the Soviet Union
Speaker 1: did back in the sixties. But of course they're not
Speaker 1: doing it for the first time, so it's a little
Speaker 1: easier to know what they're doing and how to do it.
Speaker 1: But you know, having said that, I'm very impressed by
Speaker 1: they're putting a lot of resources into their space program.
Speaker 1: They definitely want to go to the Moon, and the
Speaker 1: critical thing is that there there are some very interesting
Speaker 1: places on the Moon, like near the South Pole. And
Speaker 1: it's a real question once somebody lands and establishes a base,
Speaker 1: how close to that base can anybody else go to land?
Speaker 1: Because you know, when you land something on the Moon,
Speaker 1: it kicks up a lot of dust and lunar regolith
Speaker 1: can do damage to equipment. Whoever gets there first really
Speaker 1: has a good position. What that will mean for the
Speaker 1: people who get their second and third still remains to
Speaker 1: be seen. So I'd like to see the US get
Speaker 1: there before the Chinese. I mean, we had a space
Speaker 1: race with the Russians, who would be the first to
Speaker 1: get to the moon. It sounds a little bit strange
Speaker 1: to say, you know, who's going to be the first
Speaker 1: to get there the second time, But nevertheless, whoever does,
Speaker 1: they will have a very very imposing position vis a
Speaker 1: vis whoever is going to come next in terms of
Speaker 1: where they can go and where they can land. Possession
Speaker 1: is nine tenths of the law, as they say, and
Speaker 1: whoever gets their first possesses that amount of land.
Speaker 3: Jeff, I know what you mean about China. I was
Speaker 3: recently working there for a year and it was incredible
Speaker 3: the progress that they'd made with satellites and rocket launchers.
Speaker 3: I think they became the third nation in the world
Speaker 3: to bring back rocks from space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's been incredibly impressive what what they've
Speaker 1: been able to do. They've put a relay satellite on
Speaker 1: the far side of the Moon so that they can
Speaker 1: operate rovers on the far side of the Moon. We
Speaker 1: haven't done that yet, and.
Speaker 3: I know that India has also been expanding its program.
Speaker 3: Russia is trying to rebuild it. Why is it that
Speaker 3: they all want to go to the Moon anyway? Is
Speaker 3: this about prestige or is it still pure science?
Speaker 1: Well, I think there are several reasons. There is a
Speaker 1: certain international prestige, and particularly if the Chinese get there
Speaker 1: before the Americans, you know, that will definitely resonate in
Speaker 1: world opinion. But why we want to get to the
Speaker 1: Moon Over and above the prestige and the international impact.
Speaker 1: There may well be useful resources on the Moon. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of the reasons we're going to the south pole
Speaker 1: of the Moon is because there is indication that there
Speaker 1: may be significant deposits of water or water ice in
Speaker 1: some of the craters there, and that would be extremely
Speaker 1: useful resource. Also, you know, the Moon has been bombarded
Speaker 1: by asteroids for billions of years. We know that a
Speaker 1: certain percentage of asteroids are metallic and have a lot
Speaker 1: of rare Earth elements, which are very valuable here on Earth,
Speaker 1: both economically and geopolitically. I would anticipate that, you know,
Speaker 1: in another generation or two, the Moon will have become
Speaker 1: part of the Earth's economy, and in a similar way
Speaker 1: that Earth orbit is now part of the Earth's economy.
Speaker 1: Exactly how it will play out depends on what we
Speaker 1: find when we go to the Moon. But whoever gets
Speaker 1: there first and does the surveying, they're going to know
Speaker 1: where the value is if there are valuable materials to
Speaker 1: be found on the Moon. So that's another potential economic
Speaker 1: reason for wanting to explore the Moon.
Speaker 3: Jeff, as the Atomist two launches this week, will you
Speaker 3: be watching feeling a little bit jealous perhaps and wishing
Speaker 3: that you could be up there too.
Speaker 1: Oh, of course I'd love to be up there, but
Speaker 1: it would be a little bit small minded of me
Speaker 1: after all the incredible experiences that I've been fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to have in space. You know, I've done things that
Speaker 1: are going up and fixing the Hubble Space telescope that
Speaker 1: other people also may have been jealous about. So no,
Speaker 1: I don't feel jealous. I wish them well. Obviously, if
Speaker 1: I had a chance to go back into space, i'd
Speaker 1: do it in a moment. But you know, life goes on,
Speaker 1: and this is the new Artemis generation and I wish
Speaker 1: them well. It's going to be a great mission.
Speaker 3: Jeff, It's been a real pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Pleasure on my part as well. Nice talking with you.
Speaker 3: Also in the news, more planes carrying Australians from the
Speaker 3: Middle East have arrived in Australia. The Department of Foreign
Speaker 3: Affairs and Trade says there's been more than one hundred
Speaker 3: repatriation flights in recent weeks, but says future flights are
Speaker 3: not guaranteed and could be disrupted by war at any time.
Speaker 3: Foreign Minister Pennywong has repeated advice to Australians not to
Speaker 3: travel to the Middle East, urging those who are there
Speaker 3: to leave if it's safe to do so, and detention
Speaker 3: is turning to those who may have assisted Desi Freeman
Speaker 3: during his time on the run before he was shot
Speaker 3: dead by police on Monday. Victorian Chief Commissioner Mike Bush
Speaker 3: says the accused killer of two police officers likely had
Speaker 3: help in evading police for seven months ahead of the
Speaker 3: confrontation on the Victorian New South Wales border. Victorian Police
Speaker 3: says it plans to speak with anyone suspected of assisting
Speaker 3: mister Freeman in avoiding arrest. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is
Speaker 3: seven AM. Thanks for listening.