WEBVTT - Artemis and the new China-US Space Race 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.800 I grew up with science fiction flash Gordon buck Rogers. 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:16.479 What play thing can you offer me today? 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.240 An obscure body in the sc system, your majesty. 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.600 The inhabitants refer to it as the planet Earth. 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:30.000 I was a little boy before there was a space program. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:34.120 I mean, I remember watching the V two rockets get 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:38.440 launched out in the Western desert, and then I saw 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.960 spootn It go up. I saw the first astronauts, and 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.720 you know, like every red blooded American kid, I thought 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.720 it'd be great to be an astronaut and go in space. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.560 Tomorrow, forming NASA astronaut and Jeffrey Hoffman, we'll be watching 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:56.120 the Artemis two shuttle takeoff from the Kennedy Space Center 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.840 in Florida. It's NASA's first journey back to the Moon 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:04.640 in almost fifty years. It's a voyage deep into space, 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:09.240 but it won't land. The spacecraft will fly past the Moon. 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.880 Everybody who comes back from space will tell you that 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:18.120 this feeling of weightlessness, the ability to look out the 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.760 windows at the Earth and see are planet in a 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.080 completely new perspective, is also one of the unique aspects 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.160 of space play, and. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:33.440 Looming over it all is the great Space race. I'm 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.760 Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM today Jeffrey Hoffman, 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.920 who flew five Shuttle missions, on why Artemis matters, When 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.840 will humans land on the Moon again and who will 0:01:46.840 --> 0:02:04.000 get there first? The US for China. It's Wednesday, April one, Jeff. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.000 The last time people went to the Moon was Apollo seventeen, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.320 and that was decades ago. We now have the countdown 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.720 on Finessa to fly past the Moon this week. How 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.440 will that mission work and what will we actually see? 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:21.120 Well, I wish we could see what they're going to see, 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.320 because they're going to be farther away from the Earth, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.320 in fact, than any human beings have been before, about 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.760 twenty five hundred kilometers further out than Apollo thirteen, which 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.640 had the previous record, and they'll have a beautiful view 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.520 back towards the Moon and the Earth. What we'll see, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:46.920 of course, is after the launch, they'll go into Earth 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.280 orbit for a little while just to check out all 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.200 their systems, and then translunar injection and they'll be on 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.840 their way to the Moon. It's important to recognize they 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:04.720 will be on what's called a free return trajectory, which 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.600 is the way the first few Apollo missions were launched, 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.880 and this means that they'll be in an orbit such 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.639 that if their propulsion should fail, the Moon's gravity will 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.720 swing them around and send them back to the Earth. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.400 So they'll swing around the Moon once and then come 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:25.359 right back to the Earth and the whole mission will 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:26.600 last about ten days. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.960 So, Jeff, if this launch all goes to plan, what 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.920 is it that it will have actually achieved and what 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.000 would come next? Where do you go from here? 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:40.160 Well, the original plan was that Artemis IIIE was going 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.240 to actually land on the Moon. There were many of 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.920 us who were a little concerned that there wasn't actually 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.080 nearly the amount of testing of the hardware in space 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.480 that we had in the Apollo program. And I'm glad 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:02.200 to say that NASA has now instituded one more Artemis 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.480 mission before the attempted lunar landing, and so Artemis three 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.000 will be in Earth orbit to actually test a lot 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.600 of the hardware which is going to be used. Space 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.479 is a very unforgiving environment, and that's why we just 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.919 test and we test and we test before the actual mission. 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.120 And that's what this is. It's it's basically a test 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.120 flight like the early Apollo missions were. You know, we 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.160 had Apollo seven, eight nine, you know, all those flights 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.400 before we got to Apollo eleven and actually landed on 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:37.040 the Moon. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:47.640 Three two one zero, all engine running lipt off. We 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.320 have a liptop thirty two minutes past the hour lipped 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:52.400 off on Apollow eleven. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.640 So when will we see NASA actually in a position 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:05.200 where it's ready to land people on the and again. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:14.440 Up on all the land on a land Well, I 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.200 wish I could tell you. What I can tell you 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:22.840 is they're working as fast as they can to get 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.000 ready for Artemis three, which, as I said, will be 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:29.920 in Earth orbit to test a lot of the hardware 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.919 which will be used in the future. And the other 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.120 thing that we're waiting on. And this is another difference 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:45.839 between Apollo and Artemis. In Apollo, the Saturn five rocket 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:51.239 was able to with a single launch send not only 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.360 the Apollo module to the Moon, but the lunar lander 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.839 and everything that the crew needed to land on the 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.640 Moon and get back. Artemis cannot do that. It does 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.400 not have the capability of carrying a lander all the 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.480 way to the surface of the Moon. It can't actually 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.520 send as much mass to the Moon as we were 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:20.000 able to do in Apollo, and so the Artemis Lunar 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:25.680 landing mission will use the Orion capsule to take people 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.839 to the vicinity of the Moon. But the current architecture 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.000 is they will then be picked up either by a 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:38.320 SpaceX starship or by a Blue Origin lunar lander, and 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:44.680 that will take the crew to the ground. Artemis has 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:49.120 the capability of taking people close to the Moon, but 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.800 they'll need some help to get them actually down to 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:52.440 the surface. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:57.080 Now, Jeff NASA's budget has been a major political issue 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.599 for years. It had those two Shuttle disasters. Does the 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.560 Challenger in Columbia? 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.360 You saw it just a few moments ago, about forty 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.359 five seconds after leftoff, a huge fireball in the sky. 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:12.840 We have a report from the flight dynamics officer that 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:14.120 the vehicle has exploded. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:15.960 Flight director confirms there. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.040 And at one stage we had President Trump proposing to 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.640 slash its budget by twenty five percent. This mission has 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.880 also been delayed a number of times. So, more broadly, 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.480 how much pressure is the space program under in the US? 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.480 Well, at the moment I think people well hopefully they 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:38.520 will pay some attention to the launch, but the space 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:45.680 program certainly does not occupy anything like the fraction of 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:49.640 the budget that Apollo did. You know, Apollo was done 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:54.760 as part of a Cold war competition with the Soviet Union. 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.240 You know, who would get first into space, who would 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.240 be the first to land on the moon. We're not 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.200 in that kind of a competition anymore. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.640 We choose to go to the Moon and this decay 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.040 and do the other things, not because they are easy, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.000 but because they are hard, because that goal will serve 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.240 to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.560 because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept, 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.679 one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.320 to win. And the others too. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:38.960 I will say, despite Trump's original threat to cut NASA's budget, 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:43.840 Congress has been very supportive. NASA doesn't have anywhere like 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.640 the budget that it did back in the Apollo era, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.920 and that's been one of the challenges, is to go 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.400 back to the Moon without an Apollo budget, and that's 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:59.600 why you see delays. And I think that NASA has 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.760 the support in Congress that it will need. So I 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:09.520 don't think that it's NASA's budget which is really gonna 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.120 be holding us up. If we can get through the 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:18.120 next to Hartemis test flights without any major problems, then 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.480 we should be ready to land on the Moon, I hope. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:25.840 So coming up who will land on the Moon first? 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:44.559 Again? This launch is yet another step in a growing 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.200 space race, a battle which could even decide who owns 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.880 the Moon, Jeff. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.599 Over the last couple of years, the leaders of NASA 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.600 have been raising concern also about the US China space race, 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.280 especially the min straight at Jared Isaacman. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:03.880 This is not the time for delay, but a time 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.959 for action, because if we fall behind, if we make 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:10.480 a mistake, we may never catch up, and the consequences 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:12.319 could shift the balance and power here on Earth. 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.559 Could you tell us about their competing programs to try 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.319 and establish the first permanent crude presence by the early 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:20.079 twenty thirties. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.319 Yeah, I'm very impressed by what the Chinese have been 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.720 able to accomplish in space. They've gone through a lot 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.120 of the stages that the US and the Soviet Union 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.960 did back in the sixties. But of course they're not 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.400 doing it for the first time, so it's a little 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.480 easier to know what they're doing and how to do it. 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.199 But you know, having said that, I'm very impressed by 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.360 they're putting a lot of resources into their space program. 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.479 They definitely want to go to the Moon, and the 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:55.120 critical thing is that there there are some very interesting 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.000 places on the Moon, like near the South Pole. And 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:05.720 it's a real question once somebody lands and establishes a base, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:11.120 how close to that base can anybody else go to land? 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.160 Because you know, when you land something on the Moon, 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.160 it kicks up a lot of dust and lunar regolith 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:22.360 can do damage to equipment. Whoever gets there first really 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.720 has a good position. What that will mean for the 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.960 people who get their second and third still remains to 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.400 be seen. So I'd like to see the US get 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.880 there before the Chinese. I mean, we had a space 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.880 race with the Russians, who would be the first to 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.280 get to the moon. It sounds a little bit strange 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:46.920 to say, you know, who's going to be the first 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:53.079 to get there the second time, But nevertheless, whoever does, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:59.360 they will have a very very imposing position vis a 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.760 vis whoever is going to come next in terms of 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.479 where they can go and where they can land. Possession 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.160 is nine tenths of the law, as they say, and 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.680 whoever gets their first possesses that amount of land. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.000 Jeff, I know what you mean about China. I was 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:19.280 recently working there for a year and it was incredible 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.760 the progress that they'd made with satellites and rocket launchers. 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.400 I think they became the third nation in the world 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.320 to bring back rocks from space. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:33.480 Yeah, I mean, it's been incredibly impressive what what they've 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.960 been able to do. They've put a relay satellite on 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.280 the far side of the Moon so that they can 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:43.000 operate rovers on the far side of the Moon. We 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:44.240 haven't done that yet, and. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.160 I know that India has also been expanding its program. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.200 Russia is trying to rebuild it. Why is it that 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.360 they all want to go to the Moon anyway? Is 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.559 this about prestige or is it still pure science? 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.880 Well, I think there are several reasons. There is a 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:08.120 certain international prestige, and particularly if the Chinese get there 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:13.320 before the Americans, you know, that will definitely resonate in 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.440 world opinion. But why we want to get to the 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:23.920 Moon Over and above the prestige and the international impact. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.880 There may well be useful resources on the Moon. I mean, 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:31.040 one of the reasons we're going to the south pole 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.640 of the Moon is because there is indication that there 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:39.560 may be significant deposits of water or water ice in 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.239 some of the craters there, and that would be extremely 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.680 useful resource. Also, you know, the Moon has been bombarded 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.480 by asteroids for billions of years. We know that a 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.880 certain percentage of asteroids are metallic and have a lot 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.320 of rare Earth elements, which are very valuable here on Earth, 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:06.760 both economically and geopolitically. I would anticipate that, you know, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.560 in another generation or two, the Moon will have become 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.079 part of the Earth's economy, and in a similar way 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.920 that Earth orbit is now part of the Earth's economy. 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.640 Exactly how it will play out depends on what we 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.120 find when we go to the Moon. But whoever gets 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:29.080 there first and does the surveying, they're going to know 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.600 where the value is if there are valuable materials to 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.520 be found on the Moon. So that's another potential economic 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.320 reason for wanting to explore the Moon. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.200 Jeff, as the Atomist two launches this week, will you 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.840 be watching feeling a little bit jealous perhaps and wishing 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:51.560 that you could be up there too. 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.920 Oh, of course I'd love to be up there, but 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.080 it would be a little bit small minded of me 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.000 after all the incredible experiences that I've been fortunate enough 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:04.600 to have in space. You know, I've done things that 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.920 are going up and fixing the Hubble Space telescope that 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.800 other people also may have been jealous about. So no, 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.720 I don't feel jealous. I wish them well. Obviously, if 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.040 I had a chance to go back into space, i'd 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.600 do it in a moment. But you know, life goes on, 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:29.280 and this is the new Artemis generation and I wish 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.640 them well. It's going to be a great mission. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.560 Jeff, It's been a real pleasure to speak with you. 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:37.760 Thank you so much. 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.960 Pleasure on my part as well. Nice talking with you. 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.920 Also in the news, more planes carrying Australians from the 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.280 Middle East have arrived in Australia. The Department of Foreign 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.040 Affairs and Trade says there's been more than one hundred 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.040 repatriation flights in recent weeks, but says future flights are 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.880 not guaranteed and could be disrupted by war at any time. 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.440 Foreign Minister Pennywong has repeated advice to Australians not to 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.440 travel to the Middle East, urging those who are there 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.840 to leave if it's safe to do so, and detention 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.640 is turning to those who may have assisted Desi Freeman 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.440 during his time on the run before he was shot 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.880 dead by police on Monday. Victorian Chief Commissioner Mike Bush 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.040 says the accused killer of two police officers likely had 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.240 help in evading police for seven months ahead of the 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.920 confrontation on the Victorian New South Wales border. Victorian Police 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.200 says it plans to speak with anyone suspected of assisting 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:53.640 mister Freeman in avoiding arrest. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is 0:16:53.680 --> 0:17:05.879 seven AM. Thanks for listening.