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Speaker 1: It was really difficult. They had to have They had

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Speaker 1: to have a lot of conversations with each other which

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Speaker 1: they'd never been allowed to have before. They had to

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Speaker 1: talk about what they wanted, what they thought it meant.

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Speaker 1: There was not a consensus about that. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of women found it difficult, the idea that they

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Speaker 1: had given up their youth, really the best years of

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Speaker 1: their lives, to this very strict way of life, and

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Speaker 1: were now being told that not only was it not necessary,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't really meaningful. That they didn't want them

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Speaker 1: to continue doing it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is

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Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's

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Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Welcome back for part two of our story

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Speaker 2: on Marie Grunky, who entered a strict convent in Melbourne

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen sixties harboring a shameful secret. Mary had

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Speaker 2: fallen pregnant out of wedlock and had been forced to

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Speaker 2: give up her baby for adoption. Make sure you listen

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Speaker 2: to part one first. We're talking again with Sarah Gilbert,

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Speaker 2: author of a new book called Unconventional Women, The story

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Speaker 2: of the Last Blessed Sacrament Sisters in Australia, and as

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Speaker 2: we heard in part one, at the time that Mary joined,

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Speaker 2: nuns at the convent were expected to abide by a

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Speaker 2: number of strict rules. So you mentioned family visitors, so

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Speaker 2: they were allowed to accept visits from family where they.

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Speaker 1: Your family could come and visit you. But of course

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Speaker 1: Mari's family lived too far away, so she didn't get

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Speaker 1: visitors from her family, but Rusty would come and visit her.

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Speaker 1: And some of the other sisters, I mean many of

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Speaker 1: them in fact had family quite far away. So one

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Speaker 1: of them's family was on a farm at Mare, another

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Speaker 1: one had family in Sydney, and you know, they didn't

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Speaker 1: get many visitors, but some of them had friends in

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Speaker 1: Melbourne and who would be quite faithful and know that

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Speaker 1: they were kind of really sort of on their own,

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Speaker 1: and come and visit. So the convent had a parlor,

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Speaker 1: that's what they called it, the parlor, and the visitors

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Speaker 1: could come, but the sisters weren't allowed to sort of

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Speaker 1: sit with them because of this rule of complete sort

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Speaker 1: of enclosure. They could see their visitors over, you know,

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Speaker 1: through a grill that was sort of they'd lift the

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Speaker 1: grill if your mother was there, so you could give

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Speaker 1: your mother a hug, but you kind of were still

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Speaker 1: separated from your mother by a kind of bench that

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Speaker 1: was kind of waist high.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, it's like prison.

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Speaker 1: It is a bit like prison. So they couldn't you

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Speaker 1: couldn't sit down, and they never serve visitors tea or anything,

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Speaker 1: which one of the women in the story found completely mortifying.

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Speaker 1: And so it was pretty it was pretty austere, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, okay, And you certainly couldn't if someone came to

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Speaker 2: visit you. You couldn't duck down the street for a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea because you couldn't leave the convent at all.

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Speaker 1: No, they were allowed out only for visits to the

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Speaker 1: doctor and the dentist.

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Speaker 2: That's it unbelievable. And when did all this start to change.

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Speaker 1: Well, it started to change not that long after Marie joined,

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Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty two, from nineteen sixty two to

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, there was a very very important meeting

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Speaker 1: in the Vatican that became known as the Second Vatican Council.

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Speaker 1: So the pope was an Italian pope called called John

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Speaker 1: the twenty third, and he felt that the church needed

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Speaker 1: a kind of pretty significant update, I mean leading up

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Speaker 1: to that there had been. Obviously, it wasn't completely sudden.

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Speaker 1: There was sort of, you know, among theologians, there was

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Speaker 1: you know, changing ideas about how, you know, what the

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Speaker 1: religion might mean in the modern world. But certainly we're

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Speaker 1: in a time now after World War Two of really

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Speaker 1: significant social change, technological change, economic change, and the Pope

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Speaker 1: was pretty convinced that the Church needed to relate to

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Speaker 1: the world in a different way and to stop to

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Speaker 1: stop just completely opposing modernity, which it had done really

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Speaker 1: for hundreds of years. And so, yeah, no, there were

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Speaker 1: no women participating in this meeting. Unsurprisingly, there were some

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Speaker 1: female observers. But despite the fact that no nuns had

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Speaker 1: a say in any of the changes, the changes that

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Speaker 1: came about from that meeting had a massive impact on

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Speaker 1: the lives of nuns, and you know, it took a

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Speaker 1: few years for them to filter down, but really by

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight it was pretty clear that despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that the very conservative Mother Superior, who ran the

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Speaker 1: convent in Melbourne of the Blessed Sacrament Sisters, despite her

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Speaker 1: resistance and her belief that it wouldn't affect the sisters,

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Speaker 1: it was going to affect them. And the main way

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Speaker 1: it was going to affect them, was they were going

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Speaker 1: to enclosure was going to be over, so that they

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Speaker 1: would have to find a way of relating in a

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Speaker 1: more natural way with the real world, you know, And

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Speaker 1: they had to work out what that, what that meant

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Speaker 1: for them, and how that fitted in with their with

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Speaker 1: the with their charism is the word, so with the

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Speaker 1: kind of personality and focus of their order and their

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Speaker 1: spiritual So it was really difficult. They had to have

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Speaker 1: They had to have a lot of conversations with each

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Speaker 1: other which they had never been allowed to have before.

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Speaker 1: They had to talk about what they wanted, what they

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Speaker 1: thought it meant. There was not a consensus about that.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of turmoil and a lot of

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of women found it difficult the

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Speaker 1: idea that they had given up their youth, really the

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Speaker 1: best years of their lives, to this very strict way

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Speaker 1: of life, and were now being told that not only

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Speaker 1: was it not necessary, but it wasn't really meaningful, that

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Speaker 1: they didn't want them to continue doing it, and that

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Speaker 1: nuns in fact, weren't whollier or closer to God than

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Speaker 1: any other kind of Catholic. So I think that was really,

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Speaker 1: really difficult for some of them, and I think it

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Speaker 1: was difficult for them to relate to each other as

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Speaker 1: well as human beings. They hadn't had personal conversations, they

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Speaker 1: weren't allowed to have friendships with each other, and so

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Speaker 1: they had regular visits from a psychologist that just just

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Speaker 1: to teach them how to talk to each other.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really full on. Was that?

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Speaker 2: What was Mari's take on the change? Was she in

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Speaker 2: favor of these changes or not?

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Speaker 1: Well, she was so, even though even though she had

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Speaker 1: found the convent and the way of life actually really

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Speaker 1: welcome and really really peaceful, and even though sort of

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Speaker 1: living this really difficult life was really part of her

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Speaker 1: idea of what she had given up for God. She

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Speaker 1: had the advantage, I suppose, of joining the convent when

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Speaker 1: she wasn't such a naive young woman, and she had

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Speaker 1: access to reading material and stuff up to the age

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Speaker 1: of you know, when she joined at twenty seven, and

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Speaker 1: including Catholic reading material, you know, things about spirituality that

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Speaker 1: opened her mind and kind of prepared it for what,

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Speaker 1: you know, without her knowing that that's what she was doing,

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Speaker 1: really prepared it for some of these new ideas. So

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Speaker 1: she was already really thinking in a kind of an

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Speaker 1: expansive way about what the idea of Jesus' presence in

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Speaker 1: the world meant. And I think she had already move beyond,

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Speaker 1: really without maybe without being so even aware of it herself,

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Speaker 1: moved beyond the idea of Jesus as being sort of

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Speaker 1: trapped in this piece of communion bread. And so when

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Speaker 1: she heard that the Vatican, you know, had wanted to

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Speaker 1: teach these women that this, you know that we have

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Speaker 1: a new idea about this now, and you can live

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Speaker 1: your lives in a different way, and you know, spending

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Speaker 1: your lives worshiping a piece of bread might not be

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Speaker 1: the best way to sort of communicate the message of Jesus.

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Speaker 1: She was really, really ready for that, and she embraced

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Speaker 1: it wholeheartedly.

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Speaker 2: And there were even changes in the convents parlor, weren't there.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, So there was changes at every level.

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Speaker 1: So they ain't changed their outfits to make them less

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Speaker 1: less ridiculously uncomfortable and restrictive. There were new you know,

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Speaker 1: they were able to accept visitors more often, they were

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Speaker 1: able to attend classes in theology, They had people come

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Speaker 1: and teach them about the new, new theological ideas that

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Speaker 1: were running through and then they had they were able

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Speaker 1: to Yeah, they wanted to get rid of this idea

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Speaker 1: that they were locked up. And so there was a

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Speaker 1: new mother superior who was who was really enthusiastic about

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Speaker 1: the changes, and she said, yep, we're gonna We're going

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Speaker 1: to get rid of that, that that grill in the parlor.

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Speaker 1: And Mari was the first to put a hand up

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Speaker 1: and saying, look, you know, I want give me the axe.

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Speaker 1: I want to do the give it the first chop.

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Speaker 1: So that she did that, gave it a few symbolic

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Speaker 1: blows with the acts, and that, Yeah, that was the

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Speaker 1: end of that.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: And then after that, presumably when they had visitors, they

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Speaker 2: were actually able to sit, you know, on a sofa

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Speaker 2: or something and serve cups of tea to their guests.

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Speaker 1: So home they were, and in fact, the comment became

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Speaker 1: a real place of hospitality. So it took a while,

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Speaker 1: but over the years, these women worked really really hard

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Speaker 1: at sort of educating themselves and being at the sort

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Speaker 1: of forefront of what was I mean, it's sort of

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Speaker 1: it's kind of maybe a bit hard to imagine now,

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Speaker 1: but I think for a lot of Catholics those early

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Speaker 1: seventies were pretty exciting, you know, this idea that the

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Speaker 1: church could change radically, that the social justice message of

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Speaker 1: Jesus was going to come to the fore, and that

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Speaker 1: you know, the kind of strict, more doctrinaire side of

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Speaker 1: Catholicism would go kind of take a bit of a backseat,

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Speaker 1: and the message would be sort of more positive and

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Speaker 1: so and more about love and acceptance and liberation. So

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Speaker 1: Marie was super keen on all of that, and the

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Speaker 1: women were all given a chance to pursue their education.

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Speaker 1: Mary was really artistic, so she went to design school

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Speaker 1: and learned graphic design, and the women work together to

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Speaker 1: turn their chapel into a you know which also actually

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Speaker 1: the chapel also had a grill that separated the nuns

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Speaker 1: from the general congregation, so they got rid of that

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Speaker 1: as well, and they had a really vibrant little Catholic

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Speaker 1: community there of Catholics who were really interested in this

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Speaker 1: new approach to their religion, and you know, bearded Jesuits

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Speaker 1: with guitars would show up and they were singing all

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Speaker 1: the new hymns, and Marie was making all the posters

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Speaker 1: for the church, and it was really a time that

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Speaker 1: all of them remembered with a lot of affection as

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Speaker 1: a time of real personal and spiritual growth for them.

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Speaker 2: And it must have been amazing when they were all

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Speaker 2: able to finally go out into the world. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they were all able to go off and see their

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Speaker 2: families into state for a start.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Marie was the first one who was allowed

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Speaker 1: to leave the convent for a family funeral, so her

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Speaker 1: father sadly died, but she was very grateful to be

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Speaker 1: able to go. Other women before her hadn't been able

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Speaker 1: to leave even to attend the funeral a parent, and

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Speaker 1: she was there together with all of her twelve brothers

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Speaker 1: and sisters. Yeah, and they were able to go make

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Speaker 1: friends with each other, so their relationships now that they

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Speaker 1: could talk normally with one another, their relationships with one

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Speaker 1: another deepened. Sometimes that was difficult, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time it was really enriching, you know. And they

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Speaker 1: did other stuff. They got on the bus and went

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Speaker 1: to swimming lessons, learned to drive, although Murray didn't learn

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Speaker 1: to drive because she thought she'd heard that cars were

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Speaker 1: poisoning the atmosphere, so she eschewed driving. But they Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they really were able to have completely new lives but

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Speaker 1: remain part of this community that was both tightly knit

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Speaker 1: but still you know, experiencing pretty significant fault lines. I think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And originally the nuns habits were just altered, but they

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Speaker 2: eventually ditched those all together, didn't they.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they did, And I think that was true of

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of communities of nuns. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're a kind of if you've grown

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Speaker 1: up Catholic and with nuns, you can sometimes pick them

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Speaker 1: by a sort of subtle sign, a little brooch or

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Speaker 1: something like that. But a lot of nuns now don't

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Speaker 1: wear a habit of any sort. But yes, they changed

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Speaker 1: from the kind of very extremely sort of modest habit

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Speaker 1: that covered you know, that sort of went around their faces,

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Speaker 1: covering their neck and all of their hair, to to

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Speaker 1: just you know, a kind of more simple veil and

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Speaker 1: a more manageable dress. And then yeah, over the years

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Speaker 1: they just didn't bother.

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Speaker 2: And that was by when the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think probably there's some some of the sisters

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Speaker 1: kept to it. So there was an old nun called

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Speaker 1: Sister Peter Julian, named for the founder of the order

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Speaker 1: who who never ditched the habit. She wore the white

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Speaker 1: dress and the white veil all until the end of

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Speaker 1: her life. But so that you know, if you wanted

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Speaker 1: to keep to it, you could, But most of the

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Speaker 1: women ditched it, yeah, sometime probably in the in the

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Speaker 1: late seventies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And for Mario it was a pretty extreme change

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Speaker 2: of clothing because she went from wearing the nun's habit

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Speaker 2: to some of the outfits that Rusty gave it.

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Speaker 3: Tell us about that, right.

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Speaker 1: For she she didn't know what to wear. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she had spent less time in the common I think

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Speaker 1: probably for her the you know, she knew something about

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Speaker 1: the modern world, and she was really there for sort

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Speaker 1: of two or three four matt years you could probably say,

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Speaker 1: before it started to liberalize. But for the women who

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Speaker 1: had joined sort of in the early fifties like that

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Speaker 1: essentially missed all of the fifties and sixties. So it

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Speaker 1: was a massive shock to them. You know, Melbourne looked

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Speaker 1: nothing like it looked when they joined. For Marie was

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Speaker 1: probably less of a shock, and she certainly certainly her

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Speaker 1: friend Rusty came to the rescue again with a few

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Speaker 1: a few outfits and mini skirts that would help Marie

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Speaker 1: blend in with the other students at the Corefield School

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Speaker 1: of Designed. Yeah, So Marie, Marie absolutely went for all

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Speaker 1: of that and loved going and loved studying and loved

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Speaker 1: loved pursuing that side of her personality. One of the

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Speaker 1: other things that was happening with the women was that

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Speaker 1: feminist theology was starting to really influence their thinking. So

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Speaker 1: after Vatican two, women were now permitted to attend theological school.

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Speaker 1: They hadn't been allowed to do that for hundreds of years,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the people who went and studied

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Speaker 1: theology were nuns, including some of the women from this community,

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Speaker 1: and brought back ideas that were really exciting, really freeing

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Speaker 1: for a lot of these women who had experienced an

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly patriarchal church, and Mari absorbed that sort of thing

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Speaker 1: as well, and that attracted other women who were interested

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Speaker 1: in feminist theology to the community, so lay women who

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Speaker 1: were interested. So it was a really vibrant community and

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Speaker 1: a vibrant place to be where the thinking was really

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Speaker 1: sophisticated and advanced and was really benefiting a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who wanted to Yeah, who wanted

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Speaker 1: to remain Catholic but wanted to be you know, modern people.

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Speaker 2: It's just hard to imagine how much of a shock

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Speaker 2: it must have been for some of those women who

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Speaker 2: had been there since the beginning, you know, when they

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Speaker 2: had been using things like the discipline and wearing those

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Speaker 2: traditional habits, and then suddenly there's nuns like Mari turning

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Speaker 2: up in miniskirts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, I think I think a lot of Yet, so

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Speaker 1: a lot of people left, and I think that that

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Speaker 1: was really sad. Marie remembers that as been a really

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Speaker 1: sad part of this exciting time, and it was it

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Speaker 1: was again another oddity, like you know, they didn't give

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Speaker 1: the women who were leaving, so that you know that

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Speaker 1: most of the novices left, all of the postulus left,

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Speaker 1: so all of the ones who hadn't taken permanent vows

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Speaker 1: were just like, oh, well, oh okay, well we don't

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Speaker 1: you know, if we're not giving up your life in

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Speaker 1: this way is not going to bring you necessarily any

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Speaker 1: closer to God, Well we'll ditch it, you know where,

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Speaker 1: we'll just we won't bother. It's not what it's not

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Speaker 1: what we signed up for or you know, who knows

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Speaker 1: what they thought, but they they mostly all of them left,

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Speaker 1: but none of them there were no sort of there

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Speaker 1: were no meetings organized to give women a chance to

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Speaker 1: say why they were leaving, or even a chance to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye. And so you know, you just sort of

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Speaker 1: see someone kind of walking out the door with their

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Speaker 1: with their suitcase, and Marie remembers that has been really,

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Speaker 1: really sad, and I think, you know, even sader and

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Speaker 1: more difficult for the women who really had dedicated many,

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Speaker 1: many years to it and who were unwilling to make

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Speaker 1: the changes, or who did not agree with or see

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Speaker 1: the importance or usefulness of those changes. And some of

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Speaker 1: them stayed anyway, and there were tensions within the community

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Speaker 1: that never went away, and others others yet left, They

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Speaker 1: went back to their families, many of them. During the

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Speaker 1: time that the psychologists came to help them communicate with

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Speaker 1: each other, it became clear that they had you know,

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Speaker 1: that they were really suffering, that the many years of

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Speaker 1: emotional isolation really that they experienced had taken a toll.

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Speaker 1: So some of the women were quite sick.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back after a short break to find out

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Speaker 2: what happened to Marie in the end, So stay with us.

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Speaker 2: So how did Mari end up moving to Redfern in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think they were all living.

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Speaker 1: They were all really excited about what they might be

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Speaker 1: able to do in the world, this new kind of nun.

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Speaker 1: But they were in a really kind of affluent, middle

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Speaker 1: class neighborhood in Melbourne and they sort of I think

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Speaker 1: they felt that it was really too comfortable, that they

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Speaker 1: needed to go somewhere where they might where they might

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Speaker 1: be useful to people who needed them. And one of

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Speaker 1: a couple of the sisters went up and met with

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Speaker 1: a priest in Sydney called Father Ted Kennedy, who was

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Speaker 1: the parish priest at Saint Vince's Church in Redfern, and

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Speaker 1: he was working very closely with Aboriginal people and I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know what we would call their white allies now,

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Speaker 1: I guess, but working closely with particularly with an Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: woman called Shirley Smith who was known as Mumshirl. And

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Speaker 1: this was a time in Redfern where you had, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Aboriginal Legal Center, the Aboriginal Medical Center. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of really exciting Aboriginal rights and Aboriginal activism

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Speaker 1: going on in that community, but also a lot of difficulty,

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Speaker 1: very difficult, you know, really kind of poisonous, toxic relationship

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Speaker 1: with the police where Aboriginal people felt really targeted, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, a lot of Aboriginal people had

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Speaker 1: moved to Melbourne over the years who were members of

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Speaker 1: the Stolen Generation who'd come looking for family members. So

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Speaker 1: people from all over Australia gathered there and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them really really traumatized and dealing with the symptoms

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Speaker 1: of trauma. Really, you know, so poverty and a lot

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Speaker 1: of alcohol and drug dependents. Couldn't rent a house, no

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Speaker 1: one would rent a house to them, so really a

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Speaker 1: lot of discrimination and racism that they were suffering from

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Speaker 1: that was also really traumatizing. So that was Ted Kennedy's focus,

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Speaker 1: and he wanted some nuns to come up and give

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Speaker 1: him a hand. And so these women from a group

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Speaker 1: of the women from the community, the Blessed Acremic Community

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Speaker 1: to Armadale jumped at that chance and they moved into

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Speaker 1: a couple of terrace houses in new Town that they

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Speaker 1: were given by another order of nuns who were moving out,

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Speaker 1: and they lived there together and really life changed radically,

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Speaker 1: and Marie was part of that group that moved to Sydney.

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Speaker 3: Tell us more about her life up there.

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Speaker 1: Well, they were thrown into a situation really that they

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Speaker 1: weren't prepared for, certainly didn't have any training for the

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00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 1: kind of work, but they made it up as they

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00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 1: went along, and they thought that they were really going

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Speaker 1: to be providing a sort of quiet retreat environment for

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Speaker 1: people who were sort of at the political coal phase,

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Speaker 1: you know, fighting for Aboriginal rights, black and white people together.

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Speaker 1: But in the end, what they ended up doing was

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Speaker 1: kind of offering a house of hospitality to a lot

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Speaker 1: of Aboriginal people who were really living at the margins,

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Speaker 1: suffering a lot of discrimination. So they would have visitors

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Speaker 1: anytime of the day or night who just wanted to chat,

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Speaker 1: a cup of tea, a sandwich, and that's what they did.

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Speaker 1: They held they held regular mass in their chapel and

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Speaker 1: they were just sort of present for people. And over

380
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Speaker 1: the years they developed initiatives like street retreats for people

381
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Speaker 1: who wanted to understand what Aboriginal people in Sydney were

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Speaker 1: going through, and Mari had some of her own projects.

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Speaker 1: She made friends with an Aboriginal woman at the church

384
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Speaker 1: who asked her to travel to Kempsey and set up

385
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Speaker 1: a photography studio and teach Aboriginal people about photography. So

386
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Speaker 1: that was a whole other project that she did. And

387
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 1: she became very close to the Aboriginal rights movement, indigulous

388
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: land rights, but also the environmental movement over that time,

389
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Speaker 1: and these you know, this group of nuns were in

390
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Speaker 1: close contact with radical young Catholics from Sydney University nearby.

391
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Speaker 1: They joined the anti nuclear movement. Yeah, they marched every

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Speaker 1: Palm Sunday at the Peace March that was held in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that was that. Yeah, they became a

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Speaker 1: different kind of combat very much.

395
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Speaker 2: So now take us back to the story of Ma's son,

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Speaker 2: because of course, in all of these years, she had

397
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Speaker 2: never forgotten about her son.

398
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Speaker 1: She'd never forgotten about him, and she's still never spoken

399
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 1: about him to any of the women she was living with,

400
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 1: even though they had now become, you know, really close

401
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 1: friends and collaborators. So she never forgot about him. And

402
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, she remembers that, you know, remembers looking at

403
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: the faces of these sort of young men from Sydney universe.

404
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: He would occasionally come to their chapel for mass and

405
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: wondering you know, could that be him, that would be

406
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: that would be about his age now, and maybe you know,

407
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: he's maybe he would be studying in Sydney and maybe

408
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 1: I'll run into him, and how will I know? And

409
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Speaker 1: so he was still very much in her mind, and she,

410
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: as you can anyone who's had a child can imagine that,

411
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,439
Speaker 1: she often wondered, you know, what was his life like?

412
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Speaker 1: Had he found a family that really loved him? You know,

413
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 1: she certainly that was her always her prayer, that he

414
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 1: would be only be loved. But of course she had

415
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: no idea what had become of him until one day

416
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,360
Speaker 1: she was on a bus, just going about a business

417
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: and saw a leaflet, or maybe it was an article

418
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: on newspaper. Anyway, some printed information that said that the

419
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 1: laws in New Zealand had changed and now adopted children

420
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,360
Speaker 1: and parents mothers who lost their children to adoption, could

421
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: there would be a way of them finding each other.

422
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: So the idea with adoption had always been, no, you

423
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Speaker 1: give the baby up. It's not good for the baby

424
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 1: to fly the birth mother. This is all about idea

425
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: that you know, people didn't even tell their kids that

426
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 1: they were adopted sometimes until you know, really relate in

427
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: their lives. But the thinking around this was changing, and

428
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 1: Marie Mary got really kind of got a big shock.

429
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: This was a really big challenge. She had never thought

430
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: that she would be able to find him this way,

431
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: but of course she started to think about what might

432
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: happen if she did, so she wrote a letter. After

433
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: thinking about it for a long time, she wrote a

434
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: letter to say to you know, to field out the

435
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: form to say yes, I allow my son to contact

436
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: me if he wishes. And you know, she heard back

437
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: that he lodged his papers just days after hers were lodged.

438
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 1: They both wanted to find one another.

439
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

440
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, so now it was the next steps. She didn't

441
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: know if he would want to find her, so that

442
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: was sort of her first fear that he wouldn't want

443
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: to know her. Now she knew that he did, and

444
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: now she had to worry about something else. You know,

445
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 1: would would he would he like her? Would would they?

446
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: You know, would they? Would they have a good connection?

447
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: What would it be like to meet him? So she wrote,

448
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: she wrote a letter to him, a really long letter

449
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: telling him all about herself, and she got one in

450
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: return with photographs, and then you know, they made a

451
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,959
Speaker 1: plan to meet up. So she at this point she

452
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: had to she had to tell the others what was

453
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 1: going on. So she met with her the other members

454
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: of the community of sisters, and yeah, I told them

455
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: the news, which was a really big surprise to them.

456
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 3: Okay, so how did they do they accept it?

457
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I think there were a range of reactions.

458
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean one one of the women immediately went to

459
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: the fridge and brought out a bottle of champagne. News.

460
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: That's right, So that was really great. I think some

461
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: of the others were more hesitant, and I can imagine

462
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: a really big range of feelings, and some of them,

463
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: over the years sort of were able to express, you know,

464
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: both to me and to one another, what they did feel.

465
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 1: I think that they felt sad that she had carried

466
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: the secret, that they thought that they were close friends

467
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: and that she had never shared them and that was

468
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: sort of gave them poor And one of them even

469
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: had met the woman in fact, Maureen, and the woman

470
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: who had been Mari's novice mistress, admitted that she was

471
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: really jealous that she said what a lucky bastard you

472
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: are to Mariy. Yeah, she felt that Mariy had had

473
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: this fullness of experience that she hadn't had. So Maury

474
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: traveled with a friend, not one of the other nuns,

475
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: but another friend of hers, to Auckland and met with

476
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: her son, Michael. They found that they had an enormous

477
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: amount in common. He was also artistic, he was a

478
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: professional book binder. I think probably it was the kind

479
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: of love story that a lot of successful mother and

480
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: child reunions have. They felt deeply connected to one another.

481
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't long before she realized she needed to spend

482
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: more time in New Zealand to get to know him better.

483
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: The sisters back in Sydney and in Melbourne accepted that

484
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: she needed to do that and supported her to do that.

485
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: So eventually Maray moved to Auckland. She helped Michael in

486
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: the book bindery, and she became a social worker, helping

487
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: other women who'd lost their babies to adoption to cope

488
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: with the trauma and advocating for them for services to

489
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: help them connect with their children. She did that work

490
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: for quite a while and then eventually, you know, and

491
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: it was really important for her to do that because

492
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: I think she's still she still had quite a bit

493
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: of internalized stigma around that experience and she was able

494
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: to slowly shed some of that and you know, got

495
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: to know her son more and more and his partner.

496
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: They had a child, so Mari Maray now had a granddaughter,

497
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: and before too long all of the family moved to

498
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: the South Island to a little town called Omaru, and

499
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: Marie's still there. She helped Michael out in the bindery.

500
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 1: In Omoru. She lived with a group of Dominican nuns

501
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: who were sort of trying to run a kind of

502
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: ecologically sound kind of farm and a sort of religious retreat.

503
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: But that lasted a few years, but it did really

504
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: work out, and she moved into a cottage in town

505
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: and you know, joined joined Michael to sort of you know,

506
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: protests and despoiling of the natural environment around where they

507
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: where they lived. You know, she had sleepovers with her grandchild,

508
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: with her granddaughter, and you know, eventually became known around

509
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: town as the nun with the sun.

510
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: And they're still there now, Marie and Michael and the

511
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: grandchild are all still there now.

512
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: That's right. Her granddaughter's off doing her own thing, but

513
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: Marie's still in town. She's in her ages now. She's

514
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: just moved into aged care. So she's abandoned, had to

515
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: abandon her beautiful little cottage. But you know, and she's

516
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: still yeah, she still sees herself very much as a nun.

517
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: I think her ideas about her spirituality have deepened and changed,

518
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: and her relationship to the church has changed, but she's yeah.

519
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: So there's just her and one other of the sisters

520
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: left Melbourne and Marie in New Zealand, and they talk

521
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: on the phone and they visit.

522
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 2: What a wonderful story. Well, thank you for sharing that

523
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: wonderful story with us, Sarah. That's their book is out now.

524
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: It's Unconventional Women, the Story of the last Blessed Sacrament

525
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: Sisters in Australia. Thanks for sharing the story with us today.

526
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for inviting me to do so. Jennet was great

527
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: talking to you.

528
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been in Black and White,

529
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and

530
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Phoebe Zukowski, and

531
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the

532
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at heroldsun dot

533
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: com dot au slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast,

534
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 2: we'd love you to leave a five star rating on

535
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts. Even better, leave a review. It's one simple

536
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: way you can help us get the word out to

537
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: more listeners. Any comments or questions please email me at

538
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: in black and white at Heraldsun dot com dot au.

539
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: Any clarifications or updates will appear in the show notes

540
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: for each episode, and to get notified when each new

541
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 2: episode comes out, make sure you subscribe to the podcast

542
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