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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with award winning foreign

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Speaker 1: correspondent Mike Amore, Mike told me more stories about his

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Speaker 1: life on the road as a foreign correspondent. He gave

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Speaker 1: us a fascinating insight into the tragic murder of young

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Speaker 1: as Is Slaine, who was randomly shot by three young men.

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Speaker 1: What it was like on the ground in New Orleans

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Speaker 1: after Hurricane Katrina, the devastation and horror of the Haiti earthquakes,

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Speaker 1: what it was like in Guatanamo Bay terrorist prison where

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Speaker 1: David Hicks was serving time, and a whole lot more,

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Speaker 1: including his thoughts on the COVID lockdown and the impact

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Speaker 1: the horror as he has seen has had on him personally.

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Speaker 1: Have a listen, Mike Amoor, Welcome back to part two

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Speaker 1: of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here, Gary.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm a little bit annoyed at you

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Speaker 1: because all the stories and adventures you've got. I think

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Speaker 1: I made the wrong, wrong career decision as a foreign correspondent,

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Speaker 1: But when you became the US correspondent for Channel seven,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you were frowned in the deep end.

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Speaker 1: If you're reporting on the September eleven and you went

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Speaker 1: over there in two thousand, you're right in the thick

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Speaker 1: of it right from the start.

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Speaker 2: Like everything I've done in life, I learned on the run,

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Speaker 2: for sure. And we were the only My cameraman and

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Speaker 2: I were the only crew in the US, and for

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Speaker 2: a time we were the only overseas crew for Channel seven.

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Speaker 2: They closed their London bureau, so we were flat out.

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Speaker 2: We were bouncing from story to story to story, from

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Speaker 2: country to country to country, exhausting but amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I suppose you've got to jump in the deep

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Speaker 1: end to see if you can swim, and you hit me,

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Speaker 1: learned how you kept your head above water. That's just

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Speaker 1: the sure. I remember Ashley Mulaney. You would have worked

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Speaker 1: with her over in the US. She's amazing, she's great,

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Speaker 1: And I remember when she was a young journalist, I

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Speaker 1: think with the Telegraph, and I was speaking to her

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Speaker 1: and she just got a job in the for Channel

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Speaker 1: seven with Channel seven, and she was asking me on

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Speaker 1: advice about I'm a bit nervous in front of cameras.

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Speaker 1: You do a lot of interviews. How do you do this?

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, well, you practice and giving advice.

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Speaker 1: I was sort of a bit shocked that she was

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Speaker 1: asking advice from me. I was still learning my way.

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Speaker 1: But she was only there a relatively short time. Then

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Speaker 1: I saw her pop up there, and now I see

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Speaker 1: her strut the stage as if she was born into this, and.

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Speaker 2: She's annoyingly natural at it for someone who has to

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Speaker 2: work super super bloody hard and make lots of mistakes

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Speaker 2: and make a fool of themselves repeatedly. I hate people

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Speaker 2: like that. I do love ash but yeah, she's a

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Speaker 2: good lady.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I had to laugh when she was so

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I'm making the right decision wherever

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Speaker 1: I can do it. And I think it was about

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Speaker 1: twelve months a then months later and she's walking the

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Speaker 1: world stage and looking very comfortable in what.

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Speaker 2: She's really good and she's kicking goals.

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Speaker 1: So I'll say, good Aida if you're in contact with her,

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Speaker 1: because I had fond memories of her when she was

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Speaker 1: working the crime rounds in Sydney the murder of Chris Lane.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to tell our listeners and viewers that

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Speaker 1: don't know about what the circumstances were in that crime

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Speaker 1: and then your involvement in it, because it was a

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Speaker 1: deep dive that you had in that particular murder. Yes.

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Speaker 2: So we got reports of an Australian who'd been killed

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Speaker 2: in a very small town called Duncan, Oklahoma, just over

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Speaker 2: ten years ago. And you know, part of what we

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Speaker 2: did was see Australians in terrible situation, so that this

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Speaker 2: was just another report, unfortunately of Australian coming to grief

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Speaker 2: in a tragic way. In America. We reported it gunned

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Speaker 2: down while running and not realizing how quickly the story

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Speaker 2: would spin out of control. So Chris Lane was a

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Speaker 2: young man from Melbourne who'd gone to Oklahoma on a

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Speaker 2: baseball scholarship, met a girl over there and fell in love.

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Speaker 2: He'd only just returned to Melbourne, brought his girlfriend back here, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: to be with the parents, had just gone back to

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Speaker 2: Oklahoma getting ready for that year's baseball season, and was

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Speaker 2: running off some jet lag in the afternoon and three kids,

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Speaker 2: literally kids, drove pass and shot him in the back.

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Speaker 2: They were aged fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen. They were arrested.

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Speaker 2: One of them told the police officers when asked why

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Speaker 2: he did it because they were bored. And that statement

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Speaker 2: that they did it because they were bored quickly gathered

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Speaker 2: not only Australian attention, but international attention. Barack Obama spoke

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Speaker 2: about it, so it was a story that really grabbed

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Speaker 2: the attention of even a gun weary country like America.

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Speaker 2: And I initially, honestly had it underplayed it, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't move very quickly on it, and I found myself

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Speaker 2: kind of trying to play catch up with other TV

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Speaker 2: networks who had gone to Oklahoma earlier than I did.

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Speaker 2: I was there when they appeared in court. Michael Jones

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Speaker 2: was a seventeen year old, James Edward was fifteen year old,

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Speaker 2: and there was a sixteen year old Chancey Luna and

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Speaker 2: they just like babies, just seeing them faces like babies.

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Speaker 2: So we covered the court case and eventually they were sentence.

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Speaker 2: Chancey Luna was the gunman. He was sixteen, sentenced to

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Speaker 2: life without parole, even though he was sixteen at the time.

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Speaker 2: He'll die in prison. Michael Jones was sentenced to life

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Speaker 2: with parole. He will be in his fifties when he

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Speaker 2: gets out. And James Edwards has since been released. He

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Speaker 2: served about five years. But in the aftermath of it,

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Speaker 2: we decided to write a letter all three of them

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Speaker 2: while they're in and lo and behold Michael Jones, the

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Speaker 2: seventeen year old he was the driver. He responded and

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Speaker 2: said he'd like to talk to us. So we agreed

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Speaker 2: to sit down and do a prison interview, and we

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Speaker 2: found ourselves in Holden, Oklahoma to do this prison interview

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Speaker 2: with Michael Jones, and all of a sudden, we were

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Speaker 2: kind of engulfed in Chris Lane's story that the local

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Speaker 2: police had been very reluctant to really cooperate with the

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Speaker 2: media because any more than they had to, because they

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Speaker 2: were embarrassed by it. This horrific crime had happened in

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Speaker 2: their community and it was somebody from overseas. We sat

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Speaker 2: down with Michael Jones in prison and spoke to him

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Speaker 2: at length, asked him why he did it. He cried

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Speaker 2: and f crocodile tears, beg forgiveness, and then we spoke

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Speaker 2: to the local police force and said, well, we've got

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Speaker 2: this interview with Michael Jones. We don't want it to

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Speaker 2: be about Michael Jones solely. Will you finally talk us.

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Speaker 2: They opened up, They were terrific, gave us all the

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Speaker 2: evidence and vision that had never been seen before. So

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Speaker 2: we started to piece together what turned out to be

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Speaker 2: a documentary. Spoke to the witnesses on the ground, the

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Speaker 2: people that tried to revive or Chris. He fell to

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Speaker 2: the side of the road. Basically the bullet rattled around

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Speaker 2: in his lungs and killed him almost instantly, and these

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Speaker 2: poor people were driving past and tried to save him.

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Speaker 2: And then ultimately we spoke to Chancey Luna's parents, mother

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Speaker 2: and grandfather, and that led us to Peter and Donna,

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Speaker 2: Chris's parents who were very reluctant understandably to talk to us.

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Speaker 2: Just terrific people still absolutely traumatized by what had happened,

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Speaker 2: the loss of their son, and they don't just seen

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Speaker 2: him off. In fact, Peter got a call from from

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Speaker 2: the area code from Duncan, Oklahoma, and thought it was

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Speaker 2: Chris just checking in with him.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 2: His girlfriend's parents to ringing to tell Peter that he'd

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Speaker 2: been killed. And I think it was a very powerful

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Speaker 2: piece of television. It kind of showed I think both

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Speaker 2: sides of a tragan I think you would have seen

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Speaker 2: it too, Gary that you know. Yes, Peter and Donna

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Speaker 2: and Chris's sisters suffered tremendous loss, but it's not black

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Speaker 2: and white. Also, Michael Jones's parents suffered tremendously. You can

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Speaker 2: say they were bad parents, they seemed like loving people.

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Speaker 2: The people who assisted Chris on the side of the

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Speaker 2: road as he took his last breath, they're victims of

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Speaker 2: all of this. The stupid antics of three drugged up

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Speaker 2: teenagers who had a weapon and thought it was fun

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Speaker 2: to just shoot this poor kid that was out on

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Speaker 2: an afternoon job.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting you're telling the story and get that

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Speaker 1: appreciation of how many lives are destroyed. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I get that when in homicide, when we're locking people up,

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Speaker 1: and if it was a young offender, you know that

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Speaker 1: you're destroying Yeah, his family's life as well or her

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Speaker 1: family life. Whoever. It might be the ripple effect from

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Speaker 1: senseless crimes like that, but it's and at that age

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Speaker 1: the stupidity of kids like you look back and I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying we would do things like that, but some

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Speaker 1: of the crazy things that you do that could result

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Speaker 1: in consequences. And America, it just seems hard that they're

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Speaker 1: they're my observation and speaking to people who have spent

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Speaker 1: time in American prisons, it just seems like a brutal

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Speaker 1: system that they go in there and there's in there

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Speaker 1: for life or there's no rehabilitation that they're aiming for.

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Speaker 1: It's just punishment. It's pure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And to think, and I'm not defending it at all,

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Speaker 2: but a sixteen year old boy ends up dying in

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Speaker 2: prison for something he did as a as a kid.

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Speaker 2: He ended up joining gangs and all of that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's not innocent. He became a gang member while in prison,

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Speaker 2: and he may have been already made. There's lots of

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Speaker 2: stories that it was an initiation. But the stupidity of kids,

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Speaker 2: and that's that's a that's a harsh penalty. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Peter Lane says they deserve it, and I don't disagree.

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Speaker 1: With him, but then you can understand.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely and you'll appreciate this from an investigator's point of view.

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Speaker 2: They shot him, took off, they only had that was

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Speaker 2: a black car in a sea of black cars. They

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Speaker 2: only caught him, caught them. They dropped James Edwards off

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Speaker 2: at the police station for a bail reporting he was

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Speaker 2: seen dancing, who was going into into the police station

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Speaker 2: after being involved in the death of Chris Lane. They

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Speaker 2: later picked him up and they were caught because they

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Speaker 2: were going to fight another kid and they wanted to

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Speaker 2: shoot him. The father had called the cops. The cops

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Speaker 2: turned up, there's the black car, there's these three kids.

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Speaker 2: Bang gotcha. And it's the stupidity of kids.

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Speaker 1: Pitoty of the crimes getting access in the prisons like

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Speaker 1: that in America. I know it's something that would be

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Speaker 1: very difficult over here in this country, but there seems

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Speaker 1: to be availability that there's no issue with prisoner has

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Speaker 1: been spoken to by the.

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Speaker 2: Media in state prisons. In federal prisons, it's different, But

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Speaker 2: in state prisons, most state prisons, you can get access

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Speaker 2: to them if they want, if they agree to talk

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Speaker 2: to you. So there was a process to go through,

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Speaker 2: and I think he got some counseling as well to

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Speaker 2: make sure that he was fully understanding what he was

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Speaker 2: doing was. We had to be there at eight o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning, and my cameraman decided they were going

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Speaker 2: to get a sunset over the prison shot sunrising over

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Speaker 2: the prison. So we were there at six o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning and all of a sudden, the sirens started

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Speaker 2: blaring outside this prison and two truckloads of prison guards

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Speaker 2: with their guns hanging out and spotlights come racing towards us.

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Speaker 2: They thought were there as part of a breakout. So

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Speaker 2: it was a pretty rocky start to our prison interview,

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Speaker 2: and I thought it was going to be over before

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Speaker 2: it even started. But yeah, that's tough time there. You know,

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Speaker 2: you're talking about Oklahoma. They had been over the age

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Speaker 2: of eighteen. They may have even gotten the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well that's the reality of it. We had

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Speaker 1: a guest on here, Evaristo Salis. He was I think

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Speaker 1: it was fifteen or sixteen, an adult prison for a

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Speaker 1: murder that he didn't commit. He was acquitted, subsequently acquitted,

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Speaker 1: but something like twenty five years later, and he told

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Speaker 1: us his journey. He was only a little kid. He

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Speaker 1: was heading down the wrong track, but he certainly wasn't

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Speaker 1: guilty of the crime that he was charged and spent

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Speaker 1: the greater part of his life in prison. We he

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Speaker 1: interviewed him from his bedroom that he was in. There's

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Speaker 1: a fifteen sixteen year old kid thirty years later after

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Speaker 1: he's been released from prison, and the way he came

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Speaker 1: out it was amazing. But the stories he was telling

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Speaker 1: us about what happened in the prison was just quite frightening.

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Speaker 1: And he had to make a choice to step away

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Speaker 1: from the gangs and suffer the consequences when he got

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Speaker 1: old enough in prison to be able to look after

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Speaker 1: himself or spend the rest of his life in prison.

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Speaker 2: We covered at rodeo in the Louisiana prison where basically

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Speaker 2: once a year they allow prisoners to take partner rodeo,

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Speaker 2: even though most of them are from urban areas and

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Speaker 2: it's kind of the enjoyment of the public come in

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Speaker 2: and watch these well buggers get thrown off bulls and

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Speaker 2: gored by bulls. But they hardcore. The majority are in

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Speaker 2: there for life. That's it. They're never getting out. They're

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Speaker 2: dying there, no matter what age they were there. I

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Speaker 2: think we can greed to disagree, but we're too soft

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Speaker 2: in this country but on crime, but way they are

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Speaker 2: very hard on crime in America.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we can find that middle ground. And

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Speaker 1: we're starting to learn here about the way people are

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Speaker 1: treated in prison can make a difference. You treated people

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Speaker 1: like animals and they'll come out like animals, and so

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Speaker 1: we're making headway there. I think the Scandinavian countries have

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Speaker 1: got a model that the recidivism is much lower, extremely low,

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Speaker 1: compared to what more traditional prisons provide, whether it be

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Speaker 1: in the US or Australia. That way of rehabilitating people,

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Speaker 1: so it's not yes, they're taken away from the community

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Speaker 1: and the community are protected from them, but making them

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Speaker 1: be able to function in society when they get out,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a step in the right place.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk Hurricane Katrina. Now again the power of the

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Speaker 1: forces of nature, but the floods that flow from that,

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Speaker 1: but the aftermath of that, what occurred in the isolation

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Speaker 1: that community down in the New Orleans and you hear

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Speaker 1: stories on that know where the fact or fiction lies

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Speaker 1: about what took place in the football stadium where people

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Speaker 1: were hold up. But you're actually there, Can you take

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Speaker 1: us through that story?

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Speaker 2: Well, just to backtrack, I wasn't there when the hurricane hit.

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Speaker 2: I was actually on a driving trip with my dad.

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Speaker 2: We've gone it, I forgot you took your dad to Yeah. Look, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we drove to Vancouver, driving back and we're in Napa Valley.

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Speaker 2: I'd been keeping an eye on the hurricane. It had

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Speaker 2: been a really busy hurricane season. I'd covered several so

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Speaker 2: it wasn't out of the blue, but there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of forecasts about how dangerous it was going to be.

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Speaker 2: So I was keeping an eye on in between drinking

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Speaker 2: with Dad, and we had a crew there and for

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Speaker 2: some reason they were cleared to come home because the

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Speaker 2: initial aftermath wasn't too bad. And then I got a

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Speaker 2: call from my cameraman from the airport and he said,

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Speaker 2: we're coming home and the levees have just broken, and

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Speaker 2: I think we're making a mistake. I'm like, oh God,

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Speaker 2: he said you know, about to board. Sure enough, hang up.

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Speaker 2: The boss calls and said, we need you go to

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Speaker 2: New Orleans. I god, well, we've got dad here. He's

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Speaker 2: not comfortable driving back, and he goes, don't worry about it, mate,

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Speaker 2: let's take it. Take him with you, dad. Do you

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Speaker 2: want to go to New Orleans? Oh yeah, all right,

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Speaker 2: poor dady. Yeah here next minute, poor Dad's lands in

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Speaker 2: New Orleans with me. Our first experience of New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: We were at a kind of a freeway overpass which

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Speaker 2: normally be packed with cars. Instead it was black hawk

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Speaker 2: helicopters landing on the freeway dropping people. They were plucking

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Speaker 2: off rooftops that you know, were flooded. We'd heard on

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Speaker 2: the way that there were two Australian couples that were

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Speaker 2: trapped at the convention Center. There were two kind of

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Speaker 2: points where the people were evacuated, the football stadium the

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Speaker 2: convention Center. Trapped at the convention Center. Simple word from

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Speaker 2: Sydney was go find them. And so we're watching these

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Speaker 2: black Hawk helicopters landing plucking people off, and they're like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we want you to go in there and find them.

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Speaker 2: It's like all right, So I go up to this

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Speaker 2: copper on the side of the road and use my

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Speaker 2: Australia next thing, mate, we need to go into New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: And he said to me, son, I got every gun

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Speaker 2: I on in this car and I wouldn't go in there.

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Speaker 2: They're killing people. And he goes, but if you need

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Speaker 2: to go, just go down here, left right then, you know,

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Speaker 2: So jump in the car with my cameraman Trent, and

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Speaker 2: off we go. And Dad goes, Mate, he just said,

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Speaker 2: don't go in there. Sit in the back, mate, shut up.

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Speaker 2: Here were we drive through the start driving through the

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Speaker 2: streets of New Orleans and you know, obviously trees are

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Speaker 2: down and power lines are down, so it was, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have to go around and really and we're worried

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Speaker 2: that we'd go we'd be confronted. And sure enough, this

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Speaker 2: guy comes running down the street brandishing a gun and

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Speaker 2: we're like, oh god, here we go. It turned out

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Speaker 2: he was an off Judy cop who owned a business

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Speaker 2: who had just fired shots at looters who had broken

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Speaker 2: his window. And you know, we drove up very you know,

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Speaker 2: with a lot of trepidation, and then we kept going

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Speaker 2: and the cops were hanging out windows with their pump

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Speaker 2: out action shotguns and you know they were meant business.

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Speaker 2: Poor Dad says, oh, look there's some mannequins on the

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Speaker 2: side of the road. They weren't they were bloated bodies.

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Speaker 2: And drive in and cops are pulling guns off people,

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Speaker 2: and there were people walking around obviously having just looted.

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Speaker 2: We get to the convention center and said to Dad,

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Speaker 2: stay near the car. The cop was there and he said,

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Speaker 2: don't drive in. They'll take your car whatever you do.

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Speaker 2: Get out before nightfall. It's too dangerous. So we go

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Speaker 2: in looking for the two Australian couples into the conventions

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Speaker 2: and it was just like hell on earth. These poor people.

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Speaker 2: We saw a number of bodies. People were dying from

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Speaker 2: things like diabetes because couldn't get their medication. People were

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Speaker 2: asking us for help. They were just desperate, and we

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Speaker 2: couldn't find these Australians, who are thousands of people there.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't find it these Australians, and were starting get dark.

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Speaker 2: The warning was ringing in my ear for about cop

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Speaker 2: telling us to get out. Just as we were leaving,

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Speaker 2: I noticed there was an overpass and there were a

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Speaker 2: group of white people because predominantly they were black, and

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Speaker 2: I thought's walk up there and there were these foreign

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Speaker 2: tourists that were kind of huddled together, and we found

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Speaker 2: these two Australian couples who were just ecstatic to see us.

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Speaker 2: But it was getting dark and they were too frightened

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Speaker 2: to leave, so we left.

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Speaker 1: It was dark.

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Speaker 2: Poor Dad was frantic at the car.

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Speaker 1: Left back at the car.

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Speaker 2: I was going to drive you in there and save you.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure mate, right dude. Anyway, so we camped

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Speaker 2: in the street that night and we were protected by

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Speaker 2: MBC who'd hide these off judy cops from Texas. You know,

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Speaker 2: they had these big magazines on their guns, like you

364
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Speaker 2: sitting there, and yeah, the real tough guys. So Dad

365
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Speaker 2: took some comfort in that. And in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the night, we're sleeping in the car and a paint

367
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Speaker 2: factory across the Mississippi blew up and it felt like

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Speaker 2: the Space Shuttle was taking off against us near us,

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Speaker 2: And so Dad's had this horror day. He's gone from

370
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Speaker 2: Napa Valley to New Orleans, sleeping in the car with us,

371
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Speaker 2: to this explosion rocking the car, and poor old Dad,

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Speaker 2: forgive my language, he goes, what the fuck is going

373
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Speaker 2: on now? So anyway, this black plume of smoke starts

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Speaker 2: rising up. The cops, the big, big brave cops. They

375
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Speaker 2: took off. They didn't they didn't worry about protecting anybody.

376
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Speaker 2: They protect on. So Dad came back and said they're gone, mate,

377
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Speaker 2: were gone. They weren't gonna get out of here. I said,

378
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Speaker 2: come down, they come down, right. We have to go

379
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Speaker 2: back and get the Australians in the morning. I can't

380
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Speaker 2: leave them there, So things come down. We went and

381
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Speaker 2: got the Australians. We got them out under a convoy.

382
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Speaker 2: It was like driving out a bag Dad, these poorest rings.

383
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Speaker 2: We actually found another couple huddled nearby and we went

384
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Speaker 2: and grabbed them, and these plain closed cops came and

385
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Speaker 2: grabbed us, started jumper punching us. So what's going on.

386
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Speaker 2: We're going to arrest you for what. They were angry

387
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: because we were plucking two tourists out and they were

388
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Speaker 2: worried that the rest of them would be cranky with them. Ah.

389
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Speaker 2: So anyway, we got the tourists out, We put them

390
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Speaker 2: all all on a plane and put poor old Dad

391
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Speaker 2: on the plane and back to Australia, muttering, these Americans

392
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Speaker 2: are mad, mate, They're just mad.

393
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Speaker 1: As your dad been on holidays with you since.

394
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Speaker 2: Or that he has, he has, he dines out on

395
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Speaker 2: it now, I tell you. But he was quite shocked.

396
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Speaker 2: But we spent another couple of weeks there and I

397
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 2: made light. It was a horrible story that stuck with

398
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Speaker 2: me because predominantly the people that had been abandoned there

399
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 2: were African American and there was a bridge like the

400
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Speaker 2: Anzac Bridge or the Boulty Bridge leading out of New

401
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: Orleans where people could have been could have walked across,

402
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Speaker 2: but in many cases they were met by police from

403
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Speaker 2: other jurisdictions who'd fire shots over their heads because they

404
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: were black. They didn't want the problem in their neighborhood,

405
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Speaker 2: so they left for days.

406
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Speaker 1: That's the horror of it, isn't it like the natural disaster?

407
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Speaker 1: And that was the Levy breaks, And I think my

408
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Speaker 1: understanding of it is the actual town in itself was

409
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Speaker 1: below the sea level, so once a broken, yeah, just

410
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Speaker 1: paused out.

411
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Speaker 2: They were there for five days. People were dying, and

412
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Speaker 2: yet we were able to drive out and file our

413
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Speaker 2: story and see people in restaurants having cocktails and steak

414
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Speaker 2: and how far are we talking?

415
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Speaker 1: Like that?

416
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Speaker 2: We'd drive out twenty minutes thirty minutes, and it only

417
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Speaker 2: went when the political pressure became too much for George W. Bush.

418
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Speaker 2: They decided to send an National Guard in and they

419
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: cleared them out within hours. But there was this lot

420
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Speaker 2: of folklore about people being murdered and raped in the

421
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: in the I never found any evidence of that, and

422
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Speaker 2: in fact, I think it's it was based on racism.

423
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Speaker 2: The reports that they shots were being fired at the

424
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: rescue helicopters, well it turns out they weren't. They were

425
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Speaker 2: people so desperate to be to be rescued were firing

426
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Speaker 2: shots to attention. Yes there was looting, there's no question

427
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: about that. But mind you cops. Cops were taking cars

428
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Speaker 2: from dealerships to get the hell out of there. They

429
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: you know, that's how desperate things were. I was it

430
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: really showed a bad side of America. They'd forgotten those

431
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: people just based purely on the color of their skin.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it was a race based No question.

433
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: It would never have happened in Boston. You know, a

434
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 2: white city like Boston.

435
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: You can see why the anger and the divide in

436
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: the absolute country when that type of thing happens, that

437
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: people could be forgotten them. That's why I found the

438
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: story just following it over the years was quite amazing, like,

439
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: how did this happen? This is America. They can fight

440
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: wars anywhere around the globe, but they can't look after

441
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: their own people in a situation.

442
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: We went back a decade later to the ninth Ward,

443
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 2: the lower ninth Ward, that's where the levee broke. That

444
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: broke in several places, but that was the worst of it,

445
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: and it just basically it was an African American working

446
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 2: class community basically just wiped the homes off, their foundations

447
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 2: and the people in them, and a decade later, pretty

448
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: much abandoned people moved to other communities. They couldn't afford

449
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: to rebuild. They get fines for not cutting the lawn

450
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: on their abandoned lot, to the point where the fines

451
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: would mount and they'd have the land seased and then

452
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: they'd be sold to white people. And so it was

453
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: kind of like you could see why they were so angry.

454
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 2: Why Black Americans can.

455
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: Be shown is there is there still a lot of

456
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: divide and anger. Your observations of it, I know you're

457
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: going to interest in it too.

458
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: That, yeah, my son's African American. Undoubtedly there is systemic racism.

459
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: I thought perhaps out of Barack Obama it would change.

460
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: I think it probably is gone. It's you know, it's

461
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: certainly under Trump. It's gone backwards, no doubt about it.

462
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: Well it's these extreme views, isn't it that polarizes people

463
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 1: and divides people. It's a shame. But well that's an

464
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: interesting story. And I'll have to get your dad on

465
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: here and he can tell me the story how he

466
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: saved these Australians.

467
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: So, yeah, he dines out on it.

468
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: Now it's a big explosion. My son, Mike, he was scared.

469
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: I said, don't worry, your dad's here. We'll get the true,

470
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: true story. Another one that yeah, and this is again

471
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: the impact of nature. But the aftermath is the Haiti earthquake.

472
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,719
Speaker 1: Talk us through that, because I know that left an

473
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: impression on you and the circumstances surrounding it and what

474
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: happened when you were there.

475
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people have forgotten that

476
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: story too.

477
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: Again it's just, yeah, we can't relate to it because

478
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: they're not you know, we don't understand their world.

479
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: We remember the Boxing Day tsunami and maybe as many

480
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: people died in the Haiti earthquake, but it's such a remote,

481
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: often forgotten part of the world. Plus seven magnitude earthquake

482
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: hit Porter Prince, and you know, this is an impoverished

483
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: country said to be one of the most dangerous countries

484
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: in the Western Hemisphere. Certainly is now. We got this

485
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: call that this terrible earthquake had struck, and to be honest,

486
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 2: I wasn't quite sure. I knew it was in the

487
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: Caribbean somewhere, wasn't quite sure where. We've tried to get

488
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: there the airport again, you know, the trying to get

489
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: to these places often the biggest challenge. We flew into

490
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: the Dominican Republican in across the border at night despite

491
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: being told not to, and got into Porter Prince, and

492
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: you know, thousands of people were sleep in the city

493
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: center in makeshift camps because all their homes had been destroyed.

494
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: Early reports were three hundred thousand people that died in

495
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: Porter Prince. It may be less than that, but it

496
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 2: was significant. Anderson Cooper from CNN had booked out an

497
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: entire hotel. We arrived late at night and told a

498
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: fib to the hotel staff that we were part of

499
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: Anderson Cooper's CNN crew, so we stayed because it was

500
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: massive hotel. We stayed in this hotel for three or

501
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: four days, pretending that we're CNN's crew and hoping we

502
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: weren't going to get caught. We eventually fest up to

503
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 2: scene and they thought it was funny, thankfully, but Porter

504
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: Prince had been absolutely destroyed. From the Parliament homes. We

505
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 2: went to inn you an Australian Aid worker who's working

506
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: in the suburbs of Porter prints and when we were there,

507
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: someone tugged on the on the arm of my cameraman

508
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: and said, we can hear a baby screaming from the ruins.

509
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: And the Australian Aid workers said, don't go down there

510
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: because if you get a tremor, everything's going to go

511
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: and you'll go with it. But we're like, So we

512
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: went and the society of a hill all these kind

513
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: of pieces of concrete which obviously been a home. We

514
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: walked down the side of the hill. Sure enough, out

515
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: of this kind of hole, you could hear this baby screaming,

516
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: crying faintly, but you could hear it crying. The security

517
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: guard that we were with was a little feller. He

518
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: started very bravely digging deeper into into the hole, kind

519
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: of going around the big pieces of concrete, and over

520
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: several hours saying, I think I'm getting closer. I'm getting closer.

521
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: There's a body there. Hang on, there's I think I

522
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: see her. I think I see her. Next minute out

523
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 2: comes this little girl had been there, I think four days.

524
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: Pull this little girl, you know, her eyes are trying

525
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: to adjust to the light. She was covered in dust,

526
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: and hands her to me, and you know, I'm like,

527
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 2: whose baby is this. This guy emerges out of the

528
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: crowd and says, she's mine, and I'm like, well, what's

529
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: her name? What's your name? He couldn't remember her name.

530
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: Turns out he was the uncle who'd been walking past

531
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: every day since the family home had disappeared in the earthquake,

532
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: in the hope that his family would come out of there.

533
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: They were all dead, including his parents, and he had

534
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: there was winning. Her name was Whinny. She was sixteen

535
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: months old, and yeah, she was alive. It was quite remarkable.

536
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I copped a bit of flat gary over that story

537
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: because people, you know, some people claim we put the

538
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: baby in there. Some people say, well, why did you

539
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: film it? I stand by what we did because what

540
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: And harkening back to what we spoke about in the

541
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: last episode, people had started to move on from Haiti.

542
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: It was three or four days later there was out

543
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, there was a shock that started to move

544
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: on that image of me holding Winnie. You know, how

545
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: can a journal be pulling a baby out of the rubble,

546
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: you know, in this earthquake zone. All of a sudden

547
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: there was an influx of international rescue crews who should

548
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: have been doing this stuff, and you know, hopefully more

549
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: people were saved as a result of that. I mean,

550
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: I'm not a rescuer, and I in fairness that the

551
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: security guard, he was the guy that was brave. I

552
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: was just on the side of the hill.

553
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: But again, and taking it back to where we started

554
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: in part one, the importance of covering that and if

555
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: you don't cover that type of thing, you're not going

556
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: to get the responses neied because it can be it's

557
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: easy to forget about.

558
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: Well that's it. The whole world would have just moved on,

559
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: you know. And the following day we went to an

560
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: orphanage where half of the children had been killed and

561
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 2: the other half were just laying on the street. Some

562
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: of them seemingly with horrific injuries, in absolute pain, but

563
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: there was no medical help available to them, so we

564
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: had to leave them there. They looked like they had

565
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: broken legs and arms, you know, talking toddler's three year olds.

566
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: We were about to be adopted by American families. Horrific,

567
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: horrific stuff. But if we don't bring that, if we

568
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: don't show that the world doesn't see it, that turn

569
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: a blind eye to it, it's only haiti. We'll move on.

570
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it must be hard for you in that situation.

571
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: Like I won't say survivor guilt. You weren't there at

572
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: the start, but there is I speak to people that

573
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: have survived tragedies where other people are being killed or

574
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: walking away from stuff. You must, in your quiet moments,

575
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: have to process what you see when you see instructure

576
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: on the scale that you've seen.

577
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that one hit me really hard because I again,

578
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: my son's African American, he's adopted. We were at an orphanage.

579
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: They were of similar age, so it was you know,

580
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't help but put my boy there. Totally different

581
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: circumstances for him, clearly, but I couldn't help but see

582
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: his face even in Winnie, So that really hit me hard.

583
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: And walking away from those children and we tried to

584
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: call people, people were being turned away from hospitals. I

585
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: was really traumatized by that. Plus I was copying flak

586
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: in the media at home, you know, about our coverage.

587
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was the only time when someone said

588
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: to me, do you need any help? I'd said, yes, yeah,

589
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 2: maybe I should speak to someone, and they gave me

590
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: like a one eight hundred number and I said, yeah, okay,

591
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: I'll deal with it.

592
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: So HR must have come into play at that stage,

593
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: because oh, no, we've ticked the box, We've offered help.

594
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: They're much In fairness to them, they're they're really really good.

595
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: Now I saw I saw that in the cops, like

596
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: a shooting inside or whatever. Has anyone got the problem

597
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: with that? As you're see in a room with twenty

598
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: cops sitting around, they're all staring at each other trying

599
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: to be tough guys or girls, And no, we're fine,

600
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: and well we've offered them counseling. But yeah, I.

601
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: Mean, and that's that's what we did. That's what you you.

602
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't compare what I went through to

603
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: what you've been through.

604
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: Because you know, well, each is different in different ways.

605
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: But I think and I get and I like journalists,

606
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's why cops and journalists get along. Well.

607
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: They can understand the humor. Like we're talking talking something horrendous,

608
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: but you could be in fear of your life, but

609
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: you can still sit there and have a laugh about something.

610
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: And that's a survival, it absolutely is.

611
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: And that lack humor dark humor. If you heard that

612
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: from the outside, you think these guys are heartless. But

613
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: that was the way we dealt with it. And often

614
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: over a beer you wouldn't talk about you know, you

615
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: don't say to your cameraman. It was predominantly me and

616
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: a cameraman. Are you okay, mate? That's not the way

617
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: we spoke, you know, we just you know, as you say,

618
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 2: you know, ah, we're tough guys, but we'd push stuff down.

619
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: And in writing this book, I had to kind of

620
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 2: revisit it, and that kind of brought it back to

621
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: the surface. It's like, you know, Mike, you're probably not

622
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 2: okay with what you saw. They probably hit you more

623
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: than you realize, and that stuff just chips away your soul.

624
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: And I think I'd had enough of it. You know,

625
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 2: I'd seen enough. I'd had enough that, you know, and

626
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: again I don't want sympathy, but because you know, I

627
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: chose to be that, that's the lifestyle I chose. I

628
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: chose to put myself there. The people are recovering. Never

629
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: chose to be there. But you know, we we were bouncing.

630
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: You know, I'd go from Haiti earthquake to Oscar's red carpet,

631
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 2: interviewing George Clooney, to covering politics, to go into the Olympics.

632
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,959
Speaker 2: It's like break next speed. You didn't have a chance

633
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 2: to sit there and you know, feel sorry for yourself.

634
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: That's that is a bit of a mind fuck for you,

635
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: like from this that who the hell am I?

636
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: Not even that Gary, not even that. Go from from

637
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: you know, these poor little orphans in Haiti, you know,

638
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: dead and seemingly really bad shape, to all of a

639
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: sudden back bouncing on the trampoline with my same age son,

640
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, and back to dad duty. And my wife

641
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: had spent spend a lot of her time she's so

642
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: patient with me, and a lot of her time by herself.

643
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: And I missed so much of my son's growing up

644
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: that you know, it was you don't have time. You

645
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: just got to get back into being being a parent

646
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: and that it is a mind fuck. Yeah, and you

647
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 2: just try to move on because you do don't want

648
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: to waste the time limited time you have with your

649
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 2: family talking about what you just saw. Yeah.

650
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: I picked that theme up in your book and it

651
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: sort of made me reflect. And that's right. When I

652
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: was away from my family for the extended times on

653
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: different jobs, you knew you had limited time and you

654
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: had to make the most of it when you were

655
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: back there, or try to make the most of it,

656
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: and you can't. Well, you try not to carry what

657
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: you've seen or done into that environment.

658
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 2: And that was kind of the therapy for me too.

659
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: I think is like I had two lives, and you know,

660
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 2: I kind of jumped out of that life where I

661
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: saw some terrible stuff into the simple life of you know,

662
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: being on a trampoline, going to soccer practice, dropping him

663
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: off at school, and I missed so much that I

664
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: didn't want to waste that time.

665
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want to get more

666
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: out of I Catch Killers, Then you should head over

667
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: to our new video feed on Spotify, where you can

668
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search for

669
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start

670
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: watching today David Hick's story. But again that this is

671
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: all stems from what happened in the Towers in New York.

672
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: But tell us a bit about that, because you went

673
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 1: to where he was being detained and I just find

674
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: I just find that fascinating. The stories that have come

675
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: out of that horrifying, fascinating, and everything else in between.

676
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: Tell us of your experience there.

677
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: So just a reminder. David Hicks from Adelaide, he got

678
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: swept up in the aftermath of September eleven when the

679
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: Americans went into Afghanistan. He was actually picked up by

680
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: the Northern Alliance and handed over to the CIA. He

681
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: was fighting for the Taliban. He later admitted he'd met

682
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: a summer bin Laden. He was a thrill seeker. That's

683
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: not to say that he didn't come under plays what

684
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,479
Speaker 2: you know. He'd gone in search of adventure, I think,

685
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: and found himself tangled up in something I don't think

686
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: he fully understood. Picked up by the CIA, taken to

687
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: Black Sides, ended up going to Guantanamo Bay where they

688
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 2: were taking all these enemy combatants, as they called them

689
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 2: to this small naval base part of Cuba. Americans deliberately

690
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: dropped them off there because they were not part of

691
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: the American justice system, so they could take them there.

692
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: They were tortured, and so we were among the first

693
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: media crew to go to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, this military base.

694
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: So we were landed with the military and the initial

695
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 2: prison was like a dog pound. It had wire fences,

696
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: narrow wire fences with a rudimentary rooftop open to all

697
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: the conditions were the conditions down there, and they were

698
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: in orange jumpsuits. Deplorable conditions. But obviously they weren't getting

699
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 2: any sympathy from the Americans because they were part they

700
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 2: thought of the responsibility for the attack on the World

701
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: Aid Center, which only just happened. So we followed David

702
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: Hicks through this military tribunal system. So he was down

703
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 2: there for many years. So we went there three times

704
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: in total. He did plead guilty and they sent him back.

705
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: He actually went into a jail in Adelaide and served

706
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: some time from the memory, but at a later stage

707
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: the charge was overturned.

708
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: His conviction was overturned because the law under which he

709
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: was charged had not been passed at the time the

710
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: actions he was arrested were committed. Was it confronting scene

711
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: that I know when the images first started coming out,

712
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: there was outrage. How could people be treated like this?

713
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: Balance it out with the understanding America was at war

714
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: things needed to be done. What was it your personal impression?

715
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that you would keep humans like that,

716
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: no matter what they're accused of. And there were no

717
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: doubt there were some evil people, They're no doubt at all,

718
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: but there were also some people that were swept up

719
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: who were at best bit players. The mastermind of the

720
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: September eleven attacks eventually was housed down there, but really

721
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 2: most of them were later released back to their home countries.

722
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: They eventually built a proper prison down there, which is

723
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: still there today. But to see that rudimentary prison, I

724
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: couldn't believe how they were keeping people. But again there

725
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: was no sympathy or outrage from Americans because they were

726
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: still deeply mourning what had happened, So the government was

727
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: using that.

728
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 1: Well. Again, just an experience seeing something like that, and

729
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: I think you've also managed to find some fun on

730
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: the on the island. Is that in the book where

731
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: you as he's managed to find the bar even in

732
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 1: a place like that.

733
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: I was with a bloke called Karl Stefanovica.

734
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: I've heard of that bloke that he's got a reputation

735
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: that he'll get you in the trouble out with.

736
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: You will find he'll find trouble even in Guantanamo Bay.

737
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 2: The base, the naval base is split in two by

738
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: the bay itself, so they kept the journos, the trouble

739
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 2: makers on one side of the bay where there was

740
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: not that not much but local workers and journos were

741
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: constantly chaperoned, and the prison and the rest of the

742
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: population was on the other side of the bay. But

743
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: there was one bar, and we went there one night

744
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: and there were these Filipino workers who were you know,

745
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: they're helping maintain the bass. And they decided they were

746
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: going to have a beach party, and of course our

747
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: ears pripped up beauty beach party. So we went down

748
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: to the Caribbean and I'm scared of sharks. I didn't

749
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: go in, but the other fools did. And there was

750
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: a pier and I was walking on the pier giving

751
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: them a mouthful of lip. And I still have my

752
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: sunglasses on. I had too many beers and I didn't

753
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: see the end of the pier and it was like

754
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: a six foot drop to the hand. So I was

755
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: given the mouth of the lip and as I did that,

756
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 2: I walked off the end of the pier and face

757
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: planted straight into the sand, you know, to their cheering,

758
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: got up the glasses all bent out of shape of

759
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: my sand on my face and you bloody idiot, aim

760
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: or Well. I woke up the next morning had two

761
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: black eyes. We were with American reporters who are much

762
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: more serious in that kind of regard, and they like,

763
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: did you did you end up getting a black eye?

764
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: So we found fun where we could. I mean, we

765
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: took our job seriously.

766
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: That'll that'll teach you to try to look cool with

767
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: your dark sunglasses on.

768
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, drinking too.

769
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: Much again, you do that and you look back and

770
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: you've got to take some joy and all the things

771
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: that things that you've done. There's so many other areas

772
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: that you've been to. I'm fascinated by the favelas in Brazil,

773
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: and you've spent some time over there, the tunnels in Mexico.

774
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: Just give us a couple of anecdotes of those locations.

775
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: Well, I fell in love with Mexico for a start.

776
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 2: I love the community, but I also love the juxtaposition

777
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: of America's wealth. Just across the border. There's this community,

778
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: it's held ransom by the cartels. And I always wanted

779
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: to do a story on the drug tunnel. So I've

780
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: done a lot of stories on the border area, which

781
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: is fascinating for Australians who don't have a hard border.

782
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 2: And I got a call from America, our Mexican fixer,

783
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: who said, they've just found a drug tunnel. Can you

784
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: get down here. We happened to be in San Diego,

785
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: just across the border, and so we were able to

786
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: get there within an hour, and so we ended up

787
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: on the back of this army truck taking us to

788
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 2: this drug tunnel that had just been found. It was

789
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: run from a kind of a wreckage yard in the

790
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 2: Mexico side, and we climbed down It's like a maybe

791
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 2: fifteen meter drop, using rope, climbing down and then crawled

792
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 2: through this tunnel and in one part there was rock

793
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: on top of the tunnel and they couldn't get under. Obviously,

794
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: couldn't get through the rock, so they went under and

795
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: it was maybe, oh maybe fifty centimeters high, so you'd

796
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 2: have to go on your stomach. It was a bad

797
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: time to find out that I'm actually coastaphobic.

798
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: When you discover that.

799
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: Oh my heart started beating out of my chest. The

800
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: tunnel widened to you you could virtually walk in it.

801
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: But I was done. I had to get out of there.

802
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: I thought I was going to die. Left my cameraman

803
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: and the poor old Mexican fixer. But I love those

804
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 2: kind of adventures because I think that's what foreign correspondents

805
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: should do, is take people to places that they're fascinated

806
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: by but not necessarily would like to go to, like

807
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: the favelas, which had been part of They've been pacified

808
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: by the Brazilian police in the lead up to the

809
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 2: World Cup. So basically the favalas are on hillsides, so

810
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: the drug cartels, the drug gangs would have their headquarters

811
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: on the top of the hill because the police would

812
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: have to fight their way up to them. And they

813
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: had all out war to try and pacify these favalors,

814
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: these slums, and they were kind of successful, although we

815
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 2: went in there at night and still spoke to the

816
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 2: drug gangs who basically just blended into the community and

817
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 2: waited them out.

818
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: Fascinating, but there is it's like a wall zone. I've

819
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 1: heard of stories from policing point of view and also

820
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 1: from the gang's point of view over there, and yeah,

821
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: it's just it's incredible all the things you've seen and done.

822
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: You would have been in some pretty dangerous situations anytime

823
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: you feared for your life or how did I get

824
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: through that?

825
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think during the overthrow of Libya, we're in

826
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:03,919
Speaker 2: a firefight in the Sahara desert during a sandstorm, and

827
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: we knew there was fighting. We could hear it, but

828
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: we couldn't see it. And we're a pack, part of

829
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 2: a pack of media, and I guess they were local fighters,

830
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 2: you know, people were the butchers and builders suddenly turned

831
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: into soldiers. And we're going towards the front line and

832
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: we're going over these little hills in this dust storm,

833
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the word would get back

834
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 2: that I know that Goaddafi's forces are just over the

835
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 2: next rise. So they'd be a mad panic going back

836
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: the other way in the middle of this dust storm.

837
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: And this kept happening, and we'd go back and we'd

838
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 2: go forward and the people panicking. We went back the

839
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: next day and we saw the aftermath of the fighting.

840
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 2: We realized how close we had come to being caught.

841
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: And what I heard the other security guards say the

842
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: kill zone, that you could wander into the kill zone

843
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: this in this sandstorm and not know that you were

844
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: there until you were there, and then you were too late.

845
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 2: So I think we're pretty pretty lucky there. And at

846
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 2: the same time, we went into a village that had

847
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: been liberated from Gaddafi. I mean, they're all happy. That

848
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: was the village that had been was bombed by Gaddafi

849
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: forces while we're there. The next day, crews went back

850
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: and we were going to go back, and they had

851
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: a change of heart overnight and suddenly found themselves back

852
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: on the Gaddafi side and opened fire on the crews

853
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: that were dropping into the village thinking they were safe.

854
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 2: So that they're the kind of dangers that you face.

855
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 1: And if your name's on the bullet, your name's on

856
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: the bullet in those situations there.

857
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we caught a taxi by the way, That's

858
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: that's how we got there. So we were with a

859
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: driver who didn't speak any English, so we were basically

860
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 2: doing the thumbs up, thumbs up, good down, we're going,

861
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: We're getting out of there. That was the rudimentary way

862
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: we were communicating to this guy in the middle of

863
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: this sandstorm, in the middle of this battle. He probably

864
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 2: thought this was the hardest fair he's ever had in

865
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: his lifetime.

866
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: The glamour lifestyle of a foreign correspondent. Yeah. Right, So

867
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: you're traveling the world reporting on these jobs are highs

868
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: and lows and different things, and you get back here

869
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: and then you're in Melbourne Base and we have COVID

870
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: pandemic and the lockdown thoughts. We touched on it very

871
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: briefly about before we started recording, about the lockdowns and

872
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 1: the lack of accountability.

873
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: Well, Gary, it was one of those stories. When I

874
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: was a foreign correspondent, I'd go and do stories, but

875
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: I'd come back to normality. Whereas COVID lockdowns we were

876
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: living and breathing it. We were lucky enough to be

877
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 2: able to continue to work, but this was a story

878
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: that we couldn't escape. It was hard on my family

879
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: because they had just moved from America. Was very hard

880
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: on my son. I saw it firsthand and he just

881
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 2: started high school. Basically spent two years out of school.

882
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: My wife's father had cancer and we didn't know whether

883
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: it was going to survive. So typical of so many

884
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 2: stories in Melbourne during lockdown, it was a really confronting

885
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: time to be a journo. And I wonder, and I've

886
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 2: put a lot of thought into this, did we do

887
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 2: enough as a profession to hold the powers that be

888
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: accountable for the steps that they were taking because they

889
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: went too far. There's no question about that. History already

890
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: tells us they went too far, locking kids out of schools,

891
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: out of playgrounds, you know, curfews, police interviewing grandmothers on

892
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: park benches to find out where they lived and should

893
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: they beat it together? And you know, even the protests,

894
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: even the crazy COVID deniers, and you know, the police

895
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: cracking down on the protests and using rubber bullets, and

896
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: they just went too far. And I think the police

897
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: force down here certainly would admit now that they regret

898
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: being the ones to enforce a lot of that. And

899
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: I think that we didn't question hard enough the daily dan,

900
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: the press conferences that were held every day. We were

901
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 2: trying to question them. But I you know, I think

902
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 2: perhaps it was a great example of a community just

903
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: falling in line with something that just went too far.

904
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: To Mike, I'd also say that the Daily, Dan, I'd

905
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: call it. The headmistress was speaking to us at eleven

906
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: o'clock waiting for and we allowed out in the playground

907
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: today with our premiere. To me, I agree with the

908
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: I had just left the police, so I could see

909
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 1: it from the police point of view. I don't think

910
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: the police would have been in joining enforcing the rut.

911
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: Then I see it from the journalistic point of view,

912
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: and I was working in the media now and I

913
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: was hearing the talk on the floor about people thinking

914
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous, but no one's really brave enough to

915
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: put it in writing or report. But then you had

916
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: the lockdowns, that curfews. Half of it didn't make sense,

917
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: like the initial lockdown. Yeah, I understood they're saying we've

918
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: got to we've got to prepare for it. That made sense.

919
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: Then I just saw people that had power were enjoying

920
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: the power. And I reference your mate down there, Dan.

921
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: He just seemed to lap it up the locking, the

922
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: state down and the power the Queensland premiere when there

923
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: was a State of Origin game. This is my gift

924
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: to the people like, oh, are you the emperor? Like,

925
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: what do you mean? This is your gift to the

926
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 1: people opening the state? Shouldn't it? The state should have

927
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: never been locked down.

928
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the driving forces here, and

929
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: I don't want to get too political, but one of

930
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,839
Speaker 2: the driving forces here was they were concerned that the

931
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 2: health system would collapse. Yes, and I think what initially,

932
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 2: You're right, the initial lockdowns made sense because we didn't

933
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 2: know what we were facing, and we saw what was

934
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 2: happening in Italy and New York and that was horrendous.

935
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: We didn't want that here. But they were concerned that

936
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: the health system wasn't sturdy enough to stand up to

937
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: and I think what became health decisions became political decisions

938
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 2: that they were saving their political backsides in the end

939
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: and destroyed, you know. I mean even my son, I

940
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: still see it in him. You know, he was a

941
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 2: great sportsman, stopped sport, quit school. And we're seeing a

942
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: whole generation. And I wonder whether the crime that we're

943
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 2: seeing down here is partly among kids, partly to blame,

944
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 2: because all of a sudden, you lock kids in their room,

945
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 2: all they're doing is following, you know, social media, trends

946
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 2: getting out of healthy habits is what we're seeing in

947
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 2: part due to those lockdowns, and we should have we

948
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: should have pushed back harder. We tried, but we're also

949
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: we were kind of caught. You know, We've got to that.

950
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,760
Speaker 2: I stand with Dan Crue and the dictator, Dan Crewe, Dictator,

951
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: Dan Crew, you aren't going hard enough for I stand

952
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: with Dan Crue saying you're you know, you're putting public

953
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: health and at risk here, you know, so we were

954
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:30,959
Speaker 2: getting caught.

955
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: And look, I share share your views on that, and

956
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: I wonder the damage that has been done for people

957
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: like your son at the age he was, but also

958
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: the infants, the ones that you know, for the first

959
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: two three years in those formative years weren't allowed to

960
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: socialize or play with other kids or everyone walking around

961
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: in the mask like reading facial expressions like these are these.

962
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: It was a terrible time. And you know, for for

963
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: a while I regretted coming back. I really did, you know,

964
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 2: because it's not what I can't and everywhere was suffering,

965
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 2: no question about it, but certainly victorious.

966
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,959
Speaker 1: I was surprised. And then like the curfews, I'm trying

967
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: to work out if someone could explain to me the

968
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,839
Speaker 1: logic between the nine pm lockdown, Like if I want

969
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: to go for a walk at nine pm, or I

970
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: was living on my own at the time, and I'd

971
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: go out and I'd be stopped by police. Am I

972
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,320
Speaker 1: outside the five klome of the radius of where do

973
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 1: you live? It was crazy, But I'm glad we're talking

974
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: about it now. Maybe something more should have been done

975
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: at the time, But if we learned lessons from it,

976
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,439
Speaker 1: I don't think will be as compliant. If this type

977
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: of thing comes in now. That might be problematic, depending

978
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: what situation we're dealing with, but I think they overstep

979
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: step the mark. But I picked up on that in

980
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: your book, and it's something that I've been troubled troubled

981
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: with about the way that we responded, and I think

982
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: we are still paying for a lot of the problems

983
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: we're seen in society now from what happened there taking

984
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: everyone out of circulation. Personally, you look back at your

985
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 1: career any regrets, Oh no.

986
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 2: Not really.

987
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 1: No.

988
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 2: I feel very fortunate for all the opportunities that have

989
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: been afforded me. I mean again, I almost failed Year

990
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 2: twelve English. I went to a tech college, you know,

991
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 2: a boy from Bendigo. I probably shouldn't have seen what

992
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 2: I've seen and been afforded the opportunities and the experiences.

993
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: So I feel very fortunate. Yes, I've made some missteps

994
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: along the way, we all do, don't we, But I've

995
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 2: been nothing but lucky, and journalism has been wonderful to

996
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: me and I love I love the industry. You know, yes,

997
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 2: you know, it's changing, but I still fundamentally believe in

998
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 2: those lessons taught to me by the cranky old journals

999
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 2: in the Bendigo Advertiser that what we do is important,

1000
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 2: is crucial in any healthy democracy, and how we do

1001
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: it holding the core beliefs that we should uphold that,

1002
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, chasing the truth is what we're our fundamental job.

1003
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: I fundamentally believe despite all the changes in the industry,

1004
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 2: we're still maybe we're even more important now with social media.

1005
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 2: I still think we play a very important role. Is

1006
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: an important role. I agree with you.

1007
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: Would you recommend the career that you've had for you,

1008
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: let's say, your son or someone else that was interested

1009
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 1: in pursuing that path.

1010
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: I'd rather be a doctor or a lawyer.

1011
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: Very good lord to charge a lot of money well, yeah, yeah,

1012
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: is it we could take the conversation that we'd be

1013
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: lost in that. I've been going down the rabbit warren

1014
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: of AI. What is going to be the profession like

1015
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,959
Speaker 1: a lawyer, like just what's available now? We had a dean,

1016
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 1: a law faculty, former magistrate and talking about about law,

1017
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: and I was saying, with what we've got with AI,

1018
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: Like the solicitor's part of it was researching case law,

1019
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: the statutes and different things. Now with AI, it's a

1020
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: click of a button. And he made the point that

1021
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: he thinks law schools or law getting your law degree

1022
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: should be more sort of based on in the courts,

1023
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: time in the courts and only do theory for a day.

1024
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: So four days in the courts, that practical experience and

1025
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: then theory because we don't need three years of theory

1026
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: now because it's readily available. And it made me think

1027
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: about how much of the world is going to change

1028
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 1: with AI developments.

1029
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder what journalism is going to be Like,

1030
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously when I first started, you know, it

1031
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: wasn't the Internet, So if you wanted to find an

1032
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 2: old story, a file story, you'd have to bumb your

1033
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: way through musty old additions of the benigoaddi you know,

1034
00:58:55,440 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 2: even phones and the world is changing and some ways

1035
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 2: it's making our job as journalists is yet in some

1036
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 2: ways it's making it harder. And maybe I can't. Maybe

1037
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 2: I'm a newsreader. Now, maybe there'll be AO and news readers.

1038
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 2: They'll probably be much better than I, but hopefully make it.

1039
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 2: I'm gone.

1040
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: I'm worried about my gig here. Surely they can create

1041
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 1: something smarter than than me without any mistakes or the starters.

1042
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: But no, look, it's been been great, great having the

1043
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: chat with you. Thanks for taking the time, and I

1044
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: thoroughly recommend the book, and yeah, where do you get

1045
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: the book with any good bookstore? News cowboys. But yeah,

1046
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 1: it's been great having having a chat and a lot

1047
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: a lot of fun and a lot.

1048
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 2: Of thank you Gary. Yeah, I really appreciate you doing it,

1049
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 2: and thank you for picking it up at the Adelaide Airport.

1050
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Cheers, Thanks Garry,