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Speaker 1: The mobile phone detection cameras are on their way, they've

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Speaker 1: been installed and period of testing is underway. A period

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Speaker 1: of testing was done last year, as we understand from

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Speaker 1: a report released that is the Advertiser has obtained and

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Speaker 1: a trial conducted in April last year along South Road

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Speaker 1: at Thebden So they must have installed some sort of

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Speaker 1: overhead cameras there on some signage or similar. What they

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Speaker 1: found was that human intervention is going to be needed.

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Speaker 1: Someone is going to have to check a lot of

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Speaker 1: images that AI detects and flags as potentially someone touching

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Speaker 1: their mobile phone. So how effective are they going to be?

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Speaker 1: What's it going to mean if you do get pinged.

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Speaker 1: Let's put questions like that to Michael Woods, who is

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Speaker 1: a principal Woods and Co. Lawyers, an expert in traffic

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Speaker 1: infringement matters. Michael is on the line.

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Speaker 2: Good morning message, Good morning listeners.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting view on this, isn't it. Because these

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Speaker 1: cameras where they work into state government, very keen to

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Speaker 1: use them here to catch people as a safety device

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Speaker 1: and a means of raising revenue, no doubt as well.

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Speaker 1: But if somebody's got to sit there and check off

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Speaker 1: every individual photo that's taken. Well, that's that's thousands a day.

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Speaker 1: I imagine, Yes.

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Speaker 2: I'd imagine it's going to be a bit of a

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Speaker 2: problem for them. I think, look, we all start off

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Speaker 2: from the proposition that using your mobile phone is dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and if people aren't aware of that by now, then

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Speaker 2: they ought to be. I seen many many accidents involving

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Speaker 2: people not paying attention for all sorts of different reasons.

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Speaker 2: And that might be where they're eating their hamburger, doing

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Speaker 2: their makeup, or touching their phone, or changing their music

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Speaker 2: on the stereo but in their vehicle, but all of

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Speaker 2: those things. Mobile phones is one of those areas that

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Speaker 2: we all are conscious of. To me, we're getting these

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Speaker 2: new cameras, the images have to be reliable, and one

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Speaker 2: of the problems about that is if the image quality

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Speaker 2: has reported is not sufficient, then there's going to be

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Speaker 2: a fundamental flaw at the outset, because if we're going

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Speaker 2: to rely on images, they need to be accurate and

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Speaker 2: they need to be reliable. I've seen some interstate where

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Speaker 2: people have been sent infringement notices. There was one gentleman

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Speaker 2: that was reported last year in the Interstate Matters that

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Speaker 2: said that he'd never even owned a mobile only life

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Speaker 2: I was able to establish that. So what he had

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Speaker 2: in his hand, I don't know. I mean, most people,

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Speaker 2: let's be honest, it'll be accurate. But if AI is

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Speaker 2: going to do this, if you like a peremptory look

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Speaker 2: at all of the images in some ways, I'm glad

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Speaker 2: that they're going to use human intervention at the end

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Speaker 2: to check the process. What concerns me is if you've

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Speaker 2: gotten I think in the report on the one frial

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Speaker 2: on one location there was one hundred and seventy seven

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Speaker 2: people per day when you open up all of these cameras,

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Speaker 2: is it going to be eight hundred a day or

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Speaker 2: thousand a day? What sort of person power is that

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Speaker 2: going to take to check those images that they say?

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Speaker 2: And then what happens with that is this, do we

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Speaker 2: become a bit laisse fair? Do we become casual? Does

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Speaker 2: an operator who's trying to scan through a thousand images

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Speaker 2: a day, whether there's two, three, four, five of them

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Speaker 2: who are employed for that purpose, are they going to say, ah,

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Speaker 2: look these are have the wrong and they just quickly

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Speaker 2: flick their eyes at them and yet infringement notice, press

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Speaker 2: the button off they go. It's that sort of thing

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Speaker 2: that worries me. All I can say to every driver

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Speaker 2: out there, Look, if you know you're using your phone,

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Speaker 2: you pay the fine. Don't use your phone. But if

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Speaker 2: you had not, and you didn't have your phone in

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Speaker 2: your hand, or you didn't it wasn't depicted in the picture,

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Speaker 2: or you're unsure, the first thing is check the camera

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Speaker 2: footage yourself, see what you can see. And then the

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Speaker 2: second thing is if you know it wasn't, get yourself

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Speaker 2: some advice about it.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And that's for everything from parking finds up where

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Speaker 1: cameras are involved, and make sure you do check the

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Speaker 1: footage always. But what do you make of this from

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Speaker 1: a lawyer's perspective? Wearing that hat? If somebody gets an

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Speaker 1: infringement and it looks doubtful, it could be a phone,

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Speaker 1: It could be I don't know, a pencil, cass How

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Speaker 1: do you tell that? How do you fight that?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's going to get down partly too. I mean

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Speaker 2: someone can give oral evidence to say that wasn't a

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Speaker 2: phone in my hand. There might be a passenger in

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Speaker 2: the vehicle. You might be able to call that passenger

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Speaker 2: in the vehicle. So I was with that person that

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Speaker 2: day and he didn't have his mobile phone in his hand.

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Speaker 2: So you know you've got ural evidence that can rebut

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Speaker 2: camera evidence. You've also then got the image quality, and

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Speaker 2: then you've got those other log datas and information about

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Speaker 2: the accuracy and the reliability of the equipment itself. Most

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Speaker 2: of the time the Supreme Court in this state won't

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Speaker 2: say any at which date. It's not just our state.

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Speaker 2: They usually prove these matters by certificates, and what they

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Speaker 2: say is they tender a certificate and then that proves

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Speaker 2: that it was reliable and accurate unless you can establish otherwise.

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Speaker 2: Now they'll still say that doesn't perverse the owners of

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Speaker 2: proof by saying, okay, it's just that we use proof

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Speaker 2: by having a certificate that says so. So you then

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Speaker 2: need to come up with some evidence to the contrary

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Speaker 2: about the accuracy or reliability. Now, in practice, that's been

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Speaker 2: quite hard over the years. It's expensive over the years,

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Speaker 2: and therefore that's why I've always advocated for them both

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Speaker 2: us because to challenge some of these things it can

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Speaker 2: be expensive. You've got a subpoena people, you sometimes have

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Speaker 2: to call experts to attack the equipment. And let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are either not in the position

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Speaker 2: to do that or unlikely to do that, and they'll

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Speaker 2: lump it and pay the fine, and therefore we end

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Speaker 2: up with this situation where big brother, big sister, whatever

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Speaker 2: you want to call it, keeps winning all the time.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I've always advocated strongly for my clients

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Speaker 2: on everything.

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Speaker 1: Michael, really appreciate your insights today. And this is all

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Speaker 1: set to go to green come September. I mean, a

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Speaker 1: trial is going to commence. This is the period from

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Speaker 1: June nineteen to September nineteen when the cameras officially begin recording,

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Speaker 1: and there's a grace period in those three months, and

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Speaker 1: from mid September it's on. So maybe the best thing

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Speaker 1: to do is know where they are and keep your

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Speaker 1: hands on the wheel at all times, not just then,

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Speaker 1: but every minute y're behind the wheel. That would be,

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Speaker 1: as you've been saying, the common sense thing to do.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what's the space?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, got on your Michael Woods from Woods and Co. Lawyers,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your advice this morning.