WEBVTT - The Trial: Erin takes the stand

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<v Speaker 1>Mss Patterson. Can you repeat your full name please?

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<v Speaker 2>Erin Trudy Patterson.

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<v Speaker 1>And how old are you?

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<v Speaker 2>Fifty?

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<v Speaker 1>Now, I want to start by asking you some questions

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<v Speaker 1>about what your life was like in July of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, I'm outside the La Troe Valley Courthouse and we've

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<v Speaker 3>just finished one of the biggest days in the murder

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<v Speaker 3>trial of Aaron Patterson. It was the day that the

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<v Speaker 3>accused herself took to the stand. We only found out

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<v Speaker 3>it was going to happen late in the day, and

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<v Speaker 3>her testimony lasted about an hour. But we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>spend this episode unpacking it all. I'm Brooke Greebert Craig,

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<v Speaker 3>and this is the Mushroom Cook. It's the start of

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<v Speaker 3>week six and I'm joined as always by my colleague

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<v Speaker 3>court reporter Laura Plasella. We're here in our makeshift podcast studio.

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<v Speaker 2>In Morewell, what a day we've had.

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<v Speaker 3>It was huge. I was in the overthrowing room today,

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<v Speaker 3>but Laura, you were fortunate enough to snag a seat

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<v Speaker 3>in courtroom.

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<v Speaker 2>For that's right.

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<v Speaker 4>Like most days of the trial, the courtroom was packed.

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<v Speaker 4>I wasn't allocated a reserved media seat today but I

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<v Speaker 4>managed to grab a seat on a bench in the

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<v Speaker 4>courtroom near the jury box, and they are about seven

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<v Speaker 4>of us on this bench, so it's safe to say

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<v Speaker 4>it was a tight squeeze. The prosecution closed its case

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<v Speaker 4>today and as soon as that took place, just as

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<v Speaker 4>Christopher Beale turned to Erin's defense barrister Colin Mandy, and

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<v Speaker 4>he asked, what course will the accused be taking? There

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<v Speaker 4>was a pause and then mister Mandy replied, your honor,

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<v Speaker 4>the defense will call Aaron Patterson.

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<v Speaker 3>And what was it like in the courtroom at that time?

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<v Speaker 4>It was a very hushed moment. And then right after

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<v Speaker 4>that the jury were ushered out of the courtroom to

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<v Speaker 4>allow miss Patterson to get from the dock where she's

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<v Speaker 4>been seated for twenty four days to the witness box

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<v Speaker 4>where she would give evidence today.

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<v Speaker 3>And can you describe to our listeners what she looked

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<v Speaker 3>like and what she was wearing.

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<v Speaker 4>So she was in a black Paisley shirt, Paisley being

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<v Speaker 4>a pattern, and it had a few spots of color

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<v Speaker 4>on it. She had her hair out draped over her shoulders,

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<v Speaker 4>and we have seen her at times use glasses, but

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<v Speaker 4>today she chose not to wear them. It was at

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<v Speaker 4>this point that the tip staff who manages the courtroom,

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<v Speaker 4>walked over to Miss Patterson and walked her through her affirmation.

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<v Speaker 4>She gave an affirmation to tell the whole truth and

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<v Speaker 4>nothing but the truth. And after that the questioning got underway.

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<v Speaker 3>So mister Mandy asked Erin a range of questions about

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<v Speaker 3>her life. So we'll walk our listeners through each point.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's start with her low self esteem.

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<v Speaker 4>Erin revealed to the court that she was planning to

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<v Speaker 4>have weight loss surgery in a gastric bypass. Here's more

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<v Speaker 4>of what she was asked. We've used actors to voice

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<v Speaker 4>their words.

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<v Speaker 1>How in July of twenty twenty three, how did you

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<v Speaker 1>feel about yourself physically?

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<v Speaker 2>Not good?

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<v Speaker 1>Why?

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<v Speaker 2>I'd been fighting a never ending battle of low self

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<v Speaker 2>esteem most my adult life, and the further inroads I

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<v Speaker 2>made into being middle aged, the less less I felt

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<v Speaker 2>good about myself. I suppose put on more weight, could

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<v Speaker 2>handle exercise less.

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<v Speaker 1>Was it principally the weight issue?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean that was the large that was the

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<v Speaker 2>bulk of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. And did you have plans to do anything about

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<v Speaker 1>to address the weight issue?

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<v Speaker 2>I did?

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<v Speaker 1>And what were those plans?

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<v Speaker 2>I was planning to have weight loss surgery, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>is it gas strich bypass. I was planning to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy asked Aaron about the birth of her and

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<v Speaker 3>Simon's son. She said his birth was very traumatic.

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<v Speaker 4>He went on to ask her why, for what reason?

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<v Speaker 2>It went for a very long time, and they tried

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<v Speaker 2>to get him out with forceps and he wouldn't come out,

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<v Speaker 2>and he started to go into distress and they lost

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<v Speaker 2>his heartbeat, so they did an emergency cesarean and got

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<v Speaker 2>him out quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, now, as a result of that cesarean, you had

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<v Speaker 1>to stay in hospital for a few days.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was sixteen years ago, so I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>exactly how long, but it was probably roughly a week

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<v Speaker 2>that I was in My son was in the neonatal

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<v Speaker 2>I see you for a while to start with.

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<v Speaker 1>And how was it that you ended up leaving hospital?

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<v Speaker 2>So my son had got to a point where they

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<v Speaker 2>were happy to discharge him. He was off oxygen, he

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<v Speaker 2>was off the feeding tube, and they said he could

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<v Speaker 2>be discharged to go home with Simon, but they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>me to stay because of they didn't think I had

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<v Speaker 2>healed quite well enough from the surgery, and they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>me to stay and I wanted to go with my son.

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<v Speaker 2>So I remember having a conversation with Simon about it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was really upset and I said, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to stay here by myself. I want to go

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<v Speaker 2>home with my son. And Simon said to me, you

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<v Speaker 2>can just do it, let's just leave.

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<v Speaker 1>Did that involve you discharging yourself against medical advice?

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, it did.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy asked Aaron about her Lean Gat, the home

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<v Speaker 3>that she moved into with her children in June twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty two, and what.

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<v Speaker 1>Role did you have in designing that house.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I was involved right from the beginning of the design.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose Simon and I were involved through the whole

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<v Speaker 2>design process. But I drew a design myself first in

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<v Speaker 2>like Microsoft paint, and gave that to the building designer

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<v Speaker 2>and he said that will never work engineering wise. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>move it around a bit, you know. But it modeled

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<v Speaker 2>quite closely on how I wanted things sorted out.

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<v Speaker 1>And what were your plans for that house?

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<v Speaker 2>I saw it as the final house, meaning I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>it to be a house where the children would grow up,

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<v Speaker 2>where once they moved away for Uni or work. They

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<v Speaker 2>could come back and stay whenever they liked, bring their children,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd grow old there. That's what I hoped.

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<v Speaker 1>In the year that you had been there, did you

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<v Speaker 1>like living in the house?

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<v Speaker 2>I really liked living in the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Mister Mandy asked Aaron about her financial situation in July

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<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty three. She said she was comfortable financially.

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<v Speaker 1>He's more of she said, And in July of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three, what were your financial circumstances.

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<v Speaker 2>I was comfortable financially such that I could afford to

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<v Speaker 2>go to university and I didn't need to work a

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<v Speaker 2>full time job. At the same time, Aaron was also

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<v Speaker 2>asked about when she met her husband, Simon. She went

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<v Speaker 2>on to explain they both worked at a local council together.

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<v Speaker 2>This was her exchange with mister Mandy.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell the jury how you met Simon.

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<v Speaker 2>We met because we worked at the same place. We

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<v Speaker 2>both worked at the City of Monash Council offices in

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<v Speaker 2>glen Waverley.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was your role there?

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<v Speaker 2>So I was employed by the RSPCA and but as

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<v Speaker 2>part of that role, I was located at the City

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<v Speaker 2>of Monash offices as an administration assistant. So the RSPCA

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<v Speaker 2>had the contract to deliver animal management services to Monash

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<v Speaker 2>and as part of that they would supply two rangers

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<v Speaker 2>and an admin officer and I was the admin officer.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was Simon's role at Monash City Council.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a traffic engineer, I believe at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>And how did your relationship commence?

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<v Speaker 2>We had mutual friends, is how I remember it coming together.

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<v Speaker 2>He was friends with people that I had become friends with,

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<v Speaker 2>So we would come up against each other at lunch

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<v Speaker 2>or after work drinks, that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And what sort of activities did that group of friends

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<v Speaker 1>do together?

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<v Speaker 2>Initially in two thousand and three, it was just really

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<v Speaker 2>lunch at work or after work drinks.

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<v Speaker 4>Aaron went on to say that her and Simon started

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<v Speaker 4>dating in July two thousand and five. They were engaged

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<v Speaker 4>in February two thousand and seven, and then married in

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<v Speaker 4>June that same year. Aaron said Simon's cousin Dave Wilkinson

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<v Speaker 4>walked her down the aisle. Mister Mandy asked erin where

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<v Speaker 4>her parents were. She replied they were in Russia on

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<v Speaker 4>a train, adding that they were having.

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<v Speaker 3>A holiday Aaron then said her and Simon traveled around

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<v Speaker 3>Australia before going to South Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>So immediately after our wedding we had a long weekend

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<v Speaker 2>in a Linda. That was the honeymoon. But what we

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted for our honeymoon was to drive around Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>So Simon gave notice of his job. We gave away

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<v Speaker 2>everything we had, sold Simon's car to Ian and Heather

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<v Speaker 2>bought ans and patrol and we just hit the open road.

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<v Speaker 1>And where did you go?

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<v Speaker 2>We first went to Sydney. Simon had some friends there

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<v Speaker 2>that he wanted us to stay with, so we did

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<v Speaker 2>that and then we just slowly meandered our way across Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>but through the you know, like the far West, Birdsville, Udna,

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<v Speaker 2>Dada Track, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, the guts of it really And where did you

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<v Speaker 1>end up?

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<v Speaker 2>We ended up in Perth around September of seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And did you settle in perse So we.

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<v Speaker 2>Did eventually, Yeah, But we first went over to Africa

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<v Speaker 2>for a couple of months.

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<v Speaker 1>And where did you go in Africa?

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<v Speaker 2>We landed in South Africa. We went to Botswana to

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<v Speaker 2>visit some of Simon's relatives. We went to Zimbabwe, to

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<v Speaker 2>visit a friend of his. We went camping through Namibia.

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<v Speaker 1>And did you get back to Perth at the end

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<v Speaker 1>of two thousand and seven something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, about then what did.

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<v Speaker 1>You do when you got back to Perth.

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<v Speaker 2>When we got back to Perth, Simon was pretty keen

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<v Speaker 2>to keep traveling, and I was pretty keen to stop

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<v Speaker 2>for a while and put down roots. I was keen

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<v Speaker 2>to start having babies, I guess, for want of a

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<v Speaker 2>better way to phrase it, so we did.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy also asked Aaron about her relationship with Simon

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<v Speaker 3>in July twenty twenty three. The jury previously heard the

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<v Speaker 3>pair separated in twenty fifteen. This is what she said.

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<v Speaker 2>It was functional from the start of the year to July.

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<v Speaker 2>We mainly just related on logistic things like church, the streaming,

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<v Speaker 2>the kids, but we didn't relate on friend things banter

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<v Speaker 2>like we used to. That changed at the start of

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<v Speaker 2>the year.

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<v Speaker 4>Aaron was also asked about parts of her life that

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<v Speaker 4>weren't so good around that time.

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<v Speaker 2>I had felt for some months that my relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>the wider Patterson family, and particularly Don and Gale, had

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps had a bit more distance or space put between us.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw each other less. I mean, partly it's a

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<v Speaker 2>consequence of I no longer lived in the same town

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<v Speaker 2>as Donnungale, but i'd I'd come to have concerns that

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<v Speaker 2>Simon was not wanting to be involved too much with

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<v Speaker 2>the family anymore. Perhaps I wasn't being invited to so

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<v Speaker 2>many things.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy asked Aaron about her religion when she met Simon.

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<v Speaker 1>When you met Simon, what were your views about religion?

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<v Speaker 2>I was what you would probably call a fundamentalist atheist,

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<v Speaker 2>like I was really very atheist.

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<v Speaker 1>And what was Simon's views?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? He was a Christian? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And did your attitude towards religion change? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>It did?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? And what was that?

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<v Speaker 2>So through the course of those two to three months

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<v Speaker 2>December four January February oh five, we had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of conversations about life, religion, politics, and a lot about religion.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was trying to convert him to being an atheist.

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<v Speaker 2>But things happened in reverse, and I became a Christian.

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<v Speaker 1>You said that you first met Don and Gail when

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<v Speaker 1>you went on a trip to Karumborough. Yep. Did you

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<v Speaker 1>go to church on that trip to Karumborough? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>It was the first church service I'd ever been to.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you remember when that was?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the closest I can say is March or April,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't think it was Easter, so.

0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's fine, March or April. Do you remember the

0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.040
<v Speaker 1>experience of going to church on that occasion, Yeah, I do.

0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:16.839
<v Speaker 2>I remember being really excited about it because I'd never

0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.360
<v Speaker 2>been to a church service before. I'd been to my

0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.600
<v Speaker 2>sister's wedding in a church, but that was it, and

0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:23.640
<v Speaker 2>I was I was really looking forward to it.

0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.160
<v Speaker 1>What church was it?

0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:26.720
<v Speaker 2>It was Cornborough Baptist Church.

0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.520
<v Speaker 1>And what do you remember about that church service?

0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I remember that there was a banner up on the

0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 2>wall behind where Ian was preaching.

0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.360
<v Speaker 1>When you say Ian, do you mean Ian Wilkinson.

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.520
<v Speaker 2>That's right. He was the pastor and he was giving

0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.400
<v Speaker 2>a sermon that day, and there was a banner. It

0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.680
<v Speaker 2>could still be there now, but it said it has

0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.400
<v Speaker 2>on it faith, hope, and love. And Ian gave a

0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.840
<v Speaker 2>sermon talking about that. There's a passage in the Bible

0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.200
<v Speaker 2>that talks about faith, hope, and love, and the greatest

0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:54.560
<v Speaker 2>of these is love. And I remember Ian giving a

0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.720
<v Speaker 2>sermon on that, and then we had communion which I

0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.080
<v Speaker 2>was welcome to participate in.

0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.280
<v Speaker 1>And what impact did the church service have on you?

0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.520
<v Speaker 2>I had what at best can be described as like

0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:10.480
<v Speaker 2>a spiritual experience. I'd been I'd been approaching religion as

0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.920
<v Speaker 2>an intellectual exercise up until that point. Does that make sense?

0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.720
<v Speaker 2>Is it rational? But I had what I would call

0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 2>a religious experience there and it quite overwhelmed me.

0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.320
<v Speaker 3>Let's move on to the last topic that Aaron was

0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.200
<v Speaker 3>asked about today, the separation between her and Simon.

0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:29.920
<v Speaker 4>Aaron told the court that ultimately Hear and Simon couldn't

0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.320
<v Speaker 4>communicate well when they disagreed about something. Here's more of

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:34.679
<v Speaker 4>what she said on that matter.

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 1>During those periods of separation, how did you and Simon

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.840
<v Speaker 1>manage the children?

0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.000
<v Speaker 2>So obviously the pre twenty fourteen separation, it was just

0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 2>our son. I would say that, even though obviously our

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.240
<v Speaker 2>relationship was struggling because of a separation, it was really

0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>important to both of us to cooperate about our son

0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 2>and make it as easy on him as possible, as

0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 2>easy as a separation if his parents can be. Yeah,

0:12:58.520 --> 0:12:59.640
<v Speaker 2>that was our priority.

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.000
<v Speaker 1>And was there any conflict between you as to how

0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:04.200
<v Speaker 1>to look after your son?

0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.120
<v Speaker 2>No? There wasn't. There wasn't.

0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.920
<v Speaker 1>There must have been some tension to cause the separations.

0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course, yep, there was.

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:14.439
<v Speaker 1>What was that about?

0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Primarily what we struggled with over the entire course of

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 2>our relationship. If we had any problems at all, it

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.400
<v Speaker 2>was we just couldn't communicate well when we disagreed about something,

0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 2>We could never communicate in a way that made each

0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.320
<v Speaker 2>of us feel heard or understood, so we would just

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.200
<v Speaker 2>feel hurt and not know how to resolve it.

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.960
<v Speaker 1>But that kind of tension didn't extend to how you

0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:35.320
<v Speaker 1>look after your son.

0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.720
<v Speaker 2>No, it didn't, because we just both loved him.

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.200
<v Speaker 3>So Aaron gave evidence for only forty one minutes today

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:47.080
<v Speaker 3>after the morning was spent finishing Detective Leading Senior Constable

0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 3>Stephen Eppingstool's cross examination.

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.840
<v Speaker 4>And Erin will return to the witness box tomorrow for

0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.200
<v Speaker 4>further questions from mister Mandy. At some stage, we don't

0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.480
<v Speaker 4>know when the prosecution will get their turn to cross

0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 4>examine the accused triple murderer.

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.560
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Laura. To stay updated on this case, go to

0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 3>the mushroomcook dot com dot au