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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: Today's guest, Nina Fanell, is a passionate advocate for sexual

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Speaker 1: assault awareness, prevention, and survivor's rights. Now we all know

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Speaker 1: this is a difficult subject to talk about, but I

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Speaker 1: think discussion needs to be had. Nina has become a

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Speaker 1: prominent voice across the country, starting conversations about consent and

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Speaker 1: sexual violence. Through her advocacy, she aims to educate the public,

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Speaker 1: challenge harmful societal norms, and push for systemic changes that

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Speaker 1: support survivors and hold perpetrators accountable. It's important work that

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Speaker 1: Nina does and I'm looking forward to sitting down with

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Speaker 1: her today and having a chat, finding out who she is,

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Speaker 1: and we're also going to discuss her own experience as

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Speaker 1: a survivor of a violent sexual assault, an experience that

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Speaker 1: has driven her to make a difference in society. Nina

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Speaker 1: is also an award winning journalist and I've got to say,

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Speaker 1: a very impressive person. I think today's conversation is going

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Speaker 1: to be very informative. So let's get into it. Nina Fan, Now,

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Speaker 1: welcome to I Catch Killers. Hello, how are you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Pretty good.

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Speaker 1: Hot day where we're in the luxury of air conditioned studio,

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Speaker 1: but it was very hot outside. Your name keeps coming

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Speaker 1: up to me with people. Have you spoken to Nina?

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Speaker 1: Have you spoken to Nina? So this sit down has

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Speaker 1: been a long long time coming. You have a bit

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Speaker 1: of a reputation, do I? And now is that ever good?

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Speaker 3: Or yeah? Well, it's interesting because your name keeps coming

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Speaker 3: up to me as well, so I think it's yeah.

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Speaker 1: I deny that allegation. Well, we mentioned when before we

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Speaker 1: started here, Claire Harvey, and that's a person who was

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Speaker 1: mentored me when my early stages in striking into the media.

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Speaker 1: And you've worked with Claire as well.

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Speaker 3: I have, and Claire she's been phenomenal. She's been a

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Speaker 3: really good support as well as editor and mentor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what Claire taught me a lot about the integrity.

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Speaker 1: I admired her integrity, about the importance of getting the

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Speaker 1: truth out and stories. And she was fearless too.

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Speaker 3: And funny. She's actually, she's one of the funniest people I've met.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to say she was professional, but she's

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Speaker 1: very funny. She's a good lady, good lady allround. Your background,

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Speaker 1: first of all your personal life, as in your where

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Speaker 1: you grew up.

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Speaker 2: Who's Nina? Tell us a little bit about Nina.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I grew up in Sydney, lived here, studied

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Speaker 3: here until my twenties, and then pursued a career in journalism.

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Speaker 2: And what were you studying at UNI?

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Speaker 3: So I studied meta in communications. I'd always wanted to

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Speaker 3: be a journalist. At high school, I'd been editor of

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Speaker 3: the school newspaper, and you know that was my goal.

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Speaker 3: Either that or law, and it was sort of a

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Speaker 3: flip of a coin in the end, but I decided

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Speaker 3: that I wanted to pursue a career in journalism, so

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Speaker 3: off I went studied that, and then I, through a

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Speaker 3: series of events, decided that I would specialize in reporting

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Speaker 3: on sexual violence. That was an area that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to dedicate my time to.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it seems like a prerequisite for people that get

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Speaker 1: into the media or journalists. They head up the school

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Speaker 1: school paper or have some involvement, So it's got to

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Speaker 1: be a passion, hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, I guess. I guess I've

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Speaker 3: always been interested in people and people's stories and where

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Speaker 3: they're coming from. This is this is quite unusual for

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Speaker 3: me to be on this side, usually in your seat,

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Speaker 3: and I'm the one who's asking people about their lives,

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Speaker 3: so I'm not I'm not so used to talking about

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Speaker 3: my life, but I've always been curious about what drives

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Speaker 3: people and what their objectives are and sharing their stories.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your professional career and well, I've got a list

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Speaker 1: of things here that I don't want to embarrass you.

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Speaker 1: But your Walkley Award winning journalists yep, and what was

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Speaker 1: that in relation.

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Speaker 3: To I've won a couple. So so I did. A

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Speaker 3: couple of years ago I started the Let Her Speak campaign,

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Speaker 3: which was to reform sexual assault victim gag laws around

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Speaker 3: the country. So I'd met a young woman called Grace

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Speaker 3: tame Well. Actually at the time, what I was doing

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Speaker 3: is I was reporting on sexual assault within universities, and

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Speaker 3: I was trying to do fifty two articles in fifty

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Speaker 3: two weeks about university campus rape. I had ended up

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Speaker 3: teaching in the media department at Sydney University, and because

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Speaker 3: I'd gone public as a survivor myself, a number of

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Speaker 3: my students had recognized me, and so if they had

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Speaker 3: their own stories, they saw me, I guess, as a

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Speaker 3: safe person that they could come and disclose to. So

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Speaker 3: I was receiving quite a number of disclosures of sexual violence,

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Speaker 3: particularly within the residential colleges at Sydney University. And so

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Speaker 3: when I became a journalist, I decided that I would

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Speaker 3: One of the projects I'd always wanted to do was

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Speaker 3: a seer. He's focusing on sexual assault within universities and colleges,

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Speaker 3: and so it was in that year that I got

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Speaker 3: a tip off about this guy a convicted sex offender

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Speaker 3: called Nicholas best who now most Australians would know of

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Speaker 3: as the person who had groomed and assaulted Grace Tame.

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Speaker 3: And at the time, Nicholas Bester was down at the

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Speaker 3: University of Tasmania studying his PhD and living on campus

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Speaker 3: in a residential college with in a co educational residential

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Speaker 3: college with you know, he was in his sixties and

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Speaker 3: he was living alongside eighteen year olds and with shared

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Speaker 3: bathroom facilities and so on. It was very creepy. And

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Speaker 3: so the students at UTAZ were saying, can you report

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Speaker 3: on this guy who's who's who's on our campus and

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Speaker 3: who's making a number of students feel very uncomfortable, And

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Speaker 3: so I said, yeah, you know, I'd be happy to

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Speaker 3: look at the story, but I'd want to know what

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Speaker 3: his original victim feel about this, and is she comfortable

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Speaker 3: with the story being told in the media and so on,

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Speaker 3: And so I tracked her down and at the time,

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Speaker 3: Grace was living in la and so at first I

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Speaker 3: was just really feeling out whether she'd be comfortable with

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Speaker 3: me running this story about Besta living on campus, and

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Speaker 3: she then indicated that she would actually like to comment

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Speaker 3: and to tell her story as well, and so I thought, great, sure,

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Speaker 3: so I ran it past our lawyers at News dot

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Speaker 3: com dot au and they said, well, you can run

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Speaker 3: the story, but you just can't name the victim survivor.

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Speaker 3: And I was quite perplex Why not. She's over eighteen, now,

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Speaker 3: she's given consent, there's no defamation issues, you know, all

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Speaker 3: the things that we would usually go through and tick off.

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Speaker 3: And they, Gina McWilliams, the lawyer, said well, there's this

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Speaker 3: thing in TASMANI called Section one nine four K of

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Speaker 3: the Evidence Act, which prohibits sexual assault survivors from being

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Speaker 3: able to self identify the media unless they go to

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Speaker 3: court and seek a court order from a judge. And

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Speaker 3: I was absolutely perplexed. I've never heard anything like this

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Speaker 3: because most of the reporting that I've done has been

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Speaker 3: New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, et cetera. So,

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Speaker 3: to cut a long story short, we went back to

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Speaker 3: Grace and said would she like us to obtain her

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Speaker 3: a court order so that she can self identify? And

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Speaker 3: she said yes. And the more I sort of began

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Speaker 3: to dig in with our lawyers, I realized it was

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Speaker 3: costing about ten thousand dollars, and I thought, well, what

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Speaker 3: would she do if she didn't have a news organization

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Speaker 3: willing to do that work? What would she do if

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Speaker 3: she just wanted to write her own Facebook post or

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Speaker 3: an autobiography? Would she actually have to wear this cost?

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Speaker 3: And the answer was yes. And for me as a

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Speaker 3: survivor myself, I'd gone public when I was twenty three

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Speaker 3: years old in New South Wales and that had been

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Speaker 3: a very cathartic and healing thing for me to be

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Speaker 3: able to do. So to realize that there was an

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Speaker 3: entire jurisdiction, and it turns out not just one. Both

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Speaker 3: the Northern Territory and Tasmania had these laws where no

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Speaker 3: sexual assault survivor regardless. It wasn't just child sexual salt survivors,

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Speaker 3: it was any survivors. They couldn't tell their story without

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Speaker 3: having to go jump through this hope and seeking a

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Speaker 3: court order. So I pitched the idea of a campaign

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Speaker 3: to my editors at news dot com dot a you

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Speaker 3: could let her speak. At first, it was just going

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Speaker 3: to be about Grace, and in the end, of course,

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Speaker 3: once we got Grace's court order, I then got flooded

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Speaker 3: with other survivors who said I didn't realize I'm living

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Speaker 3: in Tasmania or I'm living in the Northern Territory and

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Speaker 3: I want to tell my story too. So I set

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Speaker 3: up a go fund me and raised a couple of

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Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars and engaged Mark lawyers to progressively

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Speaker 3: obtain these court orders. And then what I would do

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Speaker 3: is each time we'd get a court order for one

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Speaker 3: of the survivors, I would then break their story going

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Speaker 3: public and we would then use that as an opportunity

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Speaker 3: to once again highlight the punitive impacts of the laws.

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Speaker 3: And so I ran that campaign for three years and

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty the various gag laws around Australia were

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Speaker 3: all reformed. So that was.

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Speaker 2: That was.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons why I got the WALKLEYFF for

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Speaker 3: Women's leadership and for public service journalism.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, full credit to you, because if you can

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Speaker 1: do something in the media, in journalism that makes a difference,

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Speaker 1: makes a difference to people's lives. With that campaign, how

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Speaker 1: many people came out that were called up in that

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Speaker 1: legislation that they couldn't couldn't speak out.

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Speaker 3: So in the end we ended up making twenty two

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Speaker 3: applications for court orders. One of the crazy things that

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Speaker 3: happened was just after Tasmania had reformed their legislation, I

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Speaker 3: got a phone call from another journalist called Scherrell Moody

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Speaker 3: to say that Victoria had just introduced a gag law.

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Speaker 3: They'd gone backwards. And what was remarkable about that was

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Speaker 3: when I was running the campaign in Tasmania and the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory, no one was defending the law. These were

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Speaker 3: old laws that were still on the books. They'd been

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Speaker 3: introduced at a time when no one had actually conceived

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Speaker 3: of something like the Me Too movement. No one had

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Speaker 3: preempted that survivors would ever want to be attached to

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Speaker 3: their stories, into their names, having their names attached to

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Speaker 3: their stories. So the laws had been introduced with the

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Speaker 3: idea that they were actually protecting victim survivors from exploitative

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Speaker 3: media who might try to harass or pressure people into

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Speaker 3: revealing their name exactly. So when we began the campaign

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Speaker 3: in Tasmania and the NT, there were no natural defenders

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Speaker 3: of the legislation. People pretty quickly realized, yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: outdated and it's time for reform. Victoria was a very,

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Speaker 3: very different fight because the legislation was liberately introduced in

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Speaker 3: early twenty twenty. And the other thing that made it

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Speaker 3: very fact is it made that a very different fight.

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Speaker 3: Was firstly, Victoria has a very long and proud history

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Speaker 3: of victim survivors doing advocacy. If you look at things

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Speaker 3: like the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse,

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Speaker 3: a lot of that was driven out of Ballarat by

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Speaker 3: survivors who waived their right to anonymity. So we already

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Speaker 3: had a very vocal group of survivor advocates down in Victoria,

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Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden in twenty twenty, the

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Speaker 3: Victorian government introduces this legislation that overnight puts these people

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Speaker 3: back in the closet and tells them you can't continue

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Speaker 3: your advocacy, you can't be named anymore. And some of

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Speaker 3: those people had their books out, they had autobiographies, and

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Speaker 3: overnight those books were in contempt of court. So it

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Speaker 3: was it was extremely different because it wasn't just survivors

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Speaker 3: had to fight for their rights. It was survivors who

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Speaker 3: had already exercised their to be public overnight was suddenly.

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Speaker 2: Gagged and have to justify themselves.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that was very, very traumatic for them,

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Speaker 3: and it also meant that the government when we initially

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Speaker 3: launched the campaign and were contacting them about the laws,

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Speaker 3: they were very defensive and they dug their heels in

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Speaker 3: and it took quite a lot of persuasion for them

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Speaker 3: to eventually agree to overturn the laws. And when I

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Speaker 3: was going through there was one particular survivor, Jamie Lee

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Speaker 3: in Victoria. She her cases. It was a terrible case.

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Speaker 3: She was sexually abused by her biological father and so

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Speaker 3: was her older stepsister, and her older stepsister reported the

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Speaker 3: father to police, and before it got to trial, the

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Speaker 3: father murdered the stepsister so to shut her up so

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Speaker 3: she couldn't give evidence. So the father then went to

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Speaker 3: jail for murder, and as he was approaching the release date,

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Speaker 3: Jamie realized he actually he doesn't have any sexual offenses

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Speaker 3: convicted because he only went to jail for the murder.

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Speaker 3: So Jamie decided, as an adult that she would then

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Speaker 3: give evidence so that he would be he would become

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Speaker 3: a registered sex offender, which then of course has different

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Speaker 3: implications exactly. So Jamie had just gone to court as

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Speaker 3: an adult to have her father reconvicted this time as

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Speaker 3: a sex offender, and was successful in doing that, and

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Speaker 3: her entire goal in doing that was so that she

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Speaker 3: could then publicize his name and warn people about who

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Speaker 3: he was and what he had really done. And so

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Speaker 3: while she was successful in the court case and he

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Speaker 3: was convicted of the sex offenses, when the gag law

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Speaker 3: was introduced, it meant that Jamie couldn't be named. And

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Speaker 3: one of the perverse outcomes of that was neither could

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Speaker 3: her father because they share a surname. So all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, her entire purpose of going to court, And

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Speaker 3: keep in mind, this was back during code, so it

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Speaker 3: was a very different you know, there were not a

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Speaker 3: lot of supports, it was a very different climate. So

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Speaker 3: Jamie had gone through this horrendous, horrendous series of events,

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Speaker 3: and when we went to fight for her right to

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Speaker 3: get a court order, we were then told that not

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Speaker 3: only would we have to fight for her right to

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Speaker 3: name herself, we would also have to apply for a

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Speaker 3: court order to name her deceased sister. Because at the

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Speaker 3: same time that the government had the Victorian government had

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Speaker 3: introduced the legislation gagging living sexual assault victims, they'd also

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Speaker 3: introduced legislation that made it a criminal offense for journalists

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Speaker 3: to name any deceased sexual assault victims.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask what was made evading Victorian government, because

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Speaker 1: it seems to be like swimming against the tide. What

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Speaker 1: evated them in twenty twenty to reintroduce that legislation.

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Speaker 3: We still don't know. And we've been through handside and

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Speaker 3: everything at the time, and there wasn't a very clear

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Speaker 3: justification for the introduction of that legislation. It was a

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Speaker 3: massive cock up basically, and that.

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Speaker 1: Call me suspicious, but I'm wondering why that was being

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Speaker 1: driven yeah, boor then.

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Speaker 3: You know, the only group that was actually being protected

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Speaker 3: by that were offenders. But we still don't have a

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Speaker 3: clear answer from government. In the end, they did so

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Speaker 3: one of the things that happened was because they also

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Speaker 3: introduced this gag on deceased victim so overnight it became

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Speaker 3: a criminal offense to name Jill mar or Eurydice Dixon

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Speaker 3: or any of those, and a lot of their parents

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Speaker 3: came out saying, what do you mean I can't remember

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Speaker 3: my child? You know. So when we made the applications

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Speaker 3: with Jamie, we actually kept getting knocked back by the court.

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Speaker 3: The prosecution were actually fighting it too. They were actually

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Speaker 3: arguing that they didn't think Jamie should be able to

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Speaker 3: name her deceased sister. In the end, we were victorious,

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Speaker 3: but it was a really it was a very very

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Speaker 3: different fight and a very difficult fight in Victoria and

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Speaker 3: the survivors who participated in By that time, I'd rebranded

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Speaker 3: the campaign from let Her Speak to let Us Speak,

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Speaker 3: and we also had male survivors join, so there were

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Speaker 3: five male survivors who we did their legal work for,

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Speaker 3: and so in time the legislation was reformed. So by

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Speaker 3: then I'd obviously pivoted away from reporting just on university

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Speaker 3: sexual assault and was now reporting more widely on sexual assault.

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Speaker 3: And as I began to listen to people's stories, I

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Speaker 3: realized that there was a much bigger story to tell

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Speaker 3: about the criminal justice system and how it impacts on

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Speaker 3: sexual assault survivors. So the campaign I'm doing now, which

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Speaker 3: is called Justice Shouldn't Hurt. I've been following twenty survivors

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Speaker 3: through their journeys with criminal justice since about twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 3: and you know, stepping through that process with them and

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Speaker 3: watching all the things unfold, which has been an incredible

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Speaker 3: by Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I want to break that down and get into that

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Speaker 1: before we moved past the University of Culture. There I

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Speaker 1: would imagine you taking a stand on it. How old

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Speaker 1: were you at the time when you were at UNI?

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Speaker 3: So I started UNI at age eighteen, okay, and then

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Speaker 3: I began I got a job in the department when

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Speaker 3: I was twenty three, So I started working there as

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Speaker 3: a very junior.

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Speaker 1: So what so that type of campaign in the university environment,

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Speaker 1: living on campus and all that. First firstly, why did

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Speaker 1: you decide to target that and focus on that particular issue?

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Speaker 1: But what was the culture of Was it almost like

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Speaker 1: UNIQ kids buring unique kids?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it's is that I'm trying to get a sense.

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Speaker 1: So sure, because I wouldn't imagine it didn't make you

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Speaker 1: the most popular person on campus.

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Speaker 2: People would have gone what she on about?

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Speaker 1: Because you're trying to change a culture thinking. So I was.

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Speaker 3: So I attended Sidney UNI. So, as I mentioned it,

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Speaker 3: So at age twenty three, I was sexually assaulted while

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Speaker 3: I was in my honors year and I went public

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Speaker 3: and so then because of that, I then got a

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Speaker 3: job as a tutor in the media department. And I

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Speaker 3: think because I was only a few years older than

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Speaker 3: my students. They saw me as someone Yeah. So in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and eight I had a student disclosed to

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Speaker 3: me that she'd been very brutally raped by Saint Paul's student.

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Speaker 3: And the following year I'd started my PhD. And she

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Speaker 3: recontacted me and she told me his name and so on.

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Speaker 3: She recontacted in two thousand and nine she said, have

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Speaker 3: a look at this, and it was a Saint Paul's

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Speaker 3: Facebook group called defined Statutory pro Rape Anti Consent, and

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Speaker 3: the image for the Facebook group was a T shirt

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Speaker 3: that says does this shirt make me look like a rapist?

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Speaker 3: And all of the members of the group was Saint

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Speaker 3: Paul's students. And I asked my student, what would you

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Speaker 3: like to do with this, and she said, I want

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Speaker 3: to take it to the media because we've tried to

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Speaker 3: address the problems. At the time at the college, there

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Speaker 3: were all kinds of things like above the bar at

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Speaker 3: Saint Paul's they had a thing that says she can't

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Speaker 3: say no with a cock in her mouth. There were

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Speaker 3: chalkings on the pavements around some of the other colleges

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Speaker 3: with things like naked women saying every hole is the goal?

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Speaker 3: Just really crass, rape culture type of things. This was

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Speaker 3: a sort of tone of the time. So she took

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Speaker 3: the story and it was front page news about this

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Speaker 3: Facebook group, and this was one of the things that

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Speaker 3: really shocked me. What happened next was the people that

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Speaker 3: came out to defend and line up and excuse that

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Speaker 3: Facebook group were some very senior, powerful individuals. So in

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, I ended up writing a report called the

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Speaker 3: Red Zone Report. We call Orientation Week or O week

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Speaker 3: the Red Zone because one in eight of all rapes

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Speaker 3: or sexual assaults will happen on campus will happen in

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Speaker 3: that one week. So sexual assault services like the New

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Speaker 3: South Wales Rape Crisis Center receive a spike in phone

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Speaker 3: calls immediately during and then following Orientation Week on campus.

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Speaker 3: When I wrote the Red Zone Report, one of the

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Speaker 3: saddest stories that I heard was about what actually happens

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Speaker 3: to students in the colleges when they blow the whistle.

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Speaker 3: You said before, you didn't think, you know, you thought

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't be very popular on campus. I was fine

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Speaker 3: because I was a staff member. I didn't live in

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Speaker 3: any of the colleges. I would go back to my

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Speaker 3: home every night. But these students of mine who did

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Speaker 3: live on campus, the stories that they would tell me.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if people read the red Zone report,

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Speaker 3: there's one one particular story of one student who blew

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Speaker 3: the whistle on what was happening in the Sydney University colleges.

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Speaker 3: And she would walk into after she did that, she

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Speaker 3: would walk into the dining hall and sit down at

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Speaker 3: one of those long trestle tables that they have, and

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Speaker 3: everybody else at the dining table would stand up, turn

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Speaker 3: their backs on her and walk away. It was the worst,

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Speaker 3: the absolute worst part of this, and a trigger warning obviously,

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Speaker 3: but the worst part of this was so at college.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that they do is they take

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Speaker 3: photos of each other and they put them they decorate

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Speaker 3: their bedroom doors in the hallways. And she said, after

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Speaker 3: she'd written some articles and she was studying media as well,

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Speaker 3: and she had exposed what was happening in the colleges,

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Speaker 3: she said, every Monday she would come back and just

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Speaker 3: one photo would be pulled down off her door. And

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Speaker 3: she didn't know who was doing this or what their

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Speaker 3: motivation was, but she knew that it was a psychological

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Speaker 3: dig at her and a sign that people didn't want

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Speaker 3: her there, and she said every week, every week one

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Speaker 3: would be pulled down, one would be pulled down, until

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Speaker 3: the final week she came there was only one photo left,

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Speaker 3: and she pulled it down herself, and she went inside

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Speaker 3: her room and she cut her wrists and she survived.

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Speaker 3: But you hear those stories, and these are young.

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Speaker 2: People, these are vulnerable people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and and incredibly you know here incredibly bright individuals,

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Speaker 3: people with bright futures, and they leave these places scarred

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Speaker 3: because of what's happening. So, I mean, in the Red

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Speaker 3: Zone report, I actually myself and annahush and Shanna Bremner

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Speaker 3: who co authored the report with me, we went back

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Speaker 3: through about one hundred years of media reports into sexual

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Speaker 3: assaults and hazing at the colleges, and we drew this

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Speaker 3: massive timeline going back to the thirties showing that this

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Speaker 3: had been the sort of sorts of hazing that was

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Speaker 3: going on. And hazing can be anything from you know,

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Speaker 3: initiation rituals of getting people to eat sheep's hearts or

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Speaker 3: drinking goldfish were some of the things that we found

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Speaker 3: through to very violent sexual assaults. And so because I'd

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Speaker 3: been a staff member and because I'd started to hear

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Speaker 3: these stories, and because I had seen the impact that

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Speaker 3: that had had on my student when she'd ventilated and

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Speaker 3: exposed the Saint Paul's pro rape Facebook group. The fact

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Speaker 3: that it wasn't just the institution that defended itself, the

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Speaker 3: fact that other people came out of the woodwork to

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Speaker 3: stand up behind this Facebook group and to defend the college.

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Speaker 3: That was what shocked me the most. And I remember thinking,

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Speaker 3: my God, what hope does she have? So that was

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Speaker 3: what inspired me, I guess to do that before two.

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Speaker 1: I've got to say there and they're just telling that

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Speaker 1: story that gave a real good insight into the type

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Speaker 1: of thing that goes on there and the culture. What

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Speaker 1: you just explained there, I don't see how a reasonable

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Speaker 1: person this is not just tom foolery, this is not

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Speaker 1: just you know, kids mucking around on the camp has

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Speaker 1: been a little bit wild in the UNI days.

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Speaker 2: It's disgraceful.

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Speaker 3: It was the the stories that are in the Red

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Speaker 3: Zone report are still to this day some of the

436
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 3: most shocking things that I have have reported on. And

437
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: I've reported on gang rapes, I've reported on murders, but

438
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 3: but I think the tone of some of what was

439
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: going on, I mean thankfully there are. You know, cultural

440
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: change is a really difficult thing and it will take

441
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 3: it is, but but you have to start somewhere, and

442
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: I think that certainly the conversation is beginning to change

443
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: the It's interesting actually that that report, red Zone. It's

444
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 3: been back in the news again this year because the

445
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: student does at Sydney University have recently been elected and

446
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 3: the incoming women's offices handed out copies of the Red

447
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: Zone report and a whole group of male students college

448
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: students decided to rip it up, chanting we don't care,

449
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 3: we don't care, and.

450
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: Yeah I heard about that, Yeah I didn't fully appreciate

451
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: the significance of it.

452
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things that was in that report

453
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 3: was that the report, it's a two hundred page report,

454
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: and it differs from any other report in that I

455
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: actually named names in there. So we had a good

456
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: legal team on that.

457
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: A lot of time spent with the solicitors.

458
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 3: So we named names, and I also interviewed survivors as

459
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: well as the Kelly family. And if people aren't familiar

460
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: with the Kelly family, they lost one son to a

461
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 3: one punch kill, one punch attack in King's Cross.

462
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: Our listeners.

463
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 1: Just to clarify, we've had them on the podcast, right right,

464
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're famili with them.

465
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: So and then their second son, Stuart, had been at

466
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 3: Saint Paul's for one night and never slept in his bed,

467
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: and the following day when his parents he called his

468
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: parents desperate to be picked up, and they picked him

469
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: up and he was at the hospital and he said,

470
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: I'm never going back to that place.

471
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: Something traumaticly clearly happened.

472
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 3: And they've I'm in regular contact with them. I've been

473
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: in contact with the family this week, and they believe

474
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: he was sexually assaulted in haste. His story was told

475
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 3: in the Red Zone report. I'd interviewed his parents and

476
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: there was you know, there's pictures of Stewart in the report.

477
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: And so when you have a group of students now

478
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: tearing up pages saying we don't care, we don't care.

479
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: These aren't this isn't a report with anonymous quotes. There

480
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 3: are photos of these families and these students like the

481
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: one who I mentioned before, who who who would sit

482
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 3: at the dining table and everybody would leave. She's named

483
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: and photographed in that report. So when you have students

484
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: ripping it up saying we don't.

485
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: Care it.

486
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: Is and it's you know, as I said, when that happened,

487
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: I said, look, that's not a slap in the face

488
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 3: to me as the author. It's a slap in the

489
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: face to the students and the families who have lost

490
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: loved one. That There's also been a case at Sydney

491
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: UNI where back in the seventies a young woman was

492
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: raped and murdered on Saint Paul's campus on the oval

493
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: there and that's never been solved. That was in the report.

494
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 3: There was also back in the seventies. You know, one

495
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 3: of the things I found really interesting when I was

496
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 3: building the timeline was we found examples got like in

497
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 3: the seventies there was a case an alleged gang rape

498
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: at Saint Paul's and that year after the gang rape,

499
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 3: they gave trophies for the quote Animal Act of the

500
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: Year to the men who had allegedly committed the gang rape.

501
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: So these are the kinds of stories that are in

502
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: that report. So yeah, have to have students tearing it

503
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: up saying we don't care, it's it shows that there's

504
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: work to be done. Still, obviously.

505
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: That's fairly obvious. Where can people get the red report.

506
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: Can the zone it Google it downloaded, Okay.

507
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: Invite people to have a listen and get a deeper understanding.

508
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: But what you've told me there, and I think I

509
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: could be put in the basket of other people. You

510
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: hear what goes on and the shenanigans that go on

511
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: at UNI. But when you break it down there there

512
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: that's violent, criminal behavior, that's.

513
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: And there have been deaths, multiple deaths. There's also been

514
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: deaths because of alcohol.

515
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Lives have been destroyed. Yeah, and then then to make

516
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: the culture that anyone that stands up or has been

517
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: a victim in that situation to then be ostracized in

518
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: such a cruel way like taking the photo down.

519
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's and I think one of the things that's

520
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: really I mean, I find the psychology hazing really interesting

521
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: to try to understand and unpack what's going on in

522
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: these cultures. And I think, you know, one thing that's

523
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: for me that I learned when I was doing that

524
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: research was when you have eighteen year olds who are

525
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: just graduating from high school and their lives are going

526
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: through a whole lot of transitions. So it's not just

527
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 3: the transition from high school to university it's also their

528
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: transition of going from seventeen to eighteen and being able

529
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 3: to legally drink for the first time. It's also the

530
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: first time they're moving out of home. So for a

531
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: variety of reasons they're going into these environments. And of course,

532
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: as human beings, we all have a need to belong.

533
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: And when you've got a lot of transition and you're

534
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: looking around trying to establish, well, what are the rules

535
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 3: of this place, whose top dog, how do I fit in?

536
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: How do I get on here? And then on day one,

537
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: week one of orientation Week or they now call it

538
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: welcome Week, someone says all you have to do is,

539
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 3: you know, participate in this drinking game or you know,

540
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: do this and what are often quite lighthearted to start

541
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 3: off with initiation rituals, like one of them at the time,

542
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: back in the day used to be carrying two bricks

543
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: around campus all week. Annoying, yep. But if that's what

544
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: you do and then you get instant membership, instant love,

545
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 3: instant family, that's incredibly seductive. That's incredibly enticing when you're

546
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: that age and you're desperate to belong, And so what

547
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: would happen is that you would have normal reasonable eighteen

548
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: year olds, seventeen year olds, eighteen year olds who go

549
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: to these places for the first time, and within a

550
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: very short period of time, their normal morals and their

551
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 3: normal standards of behavior can be very quickly replaced. And

552
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: at first it feels good.

553
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: It feels good as you identified the psychology of everyone

554
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: wanting to belong and you're at a vulnerable stage at

555
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: that age, insecure or you've got your freedom, and if.

556
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: The price of membership at first is you know, a

557
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: hazing ritual that you know, for most people who go

558
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: through college, you know, the majority won't they obviously they're

559
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: not going to die, they're not going to be raped.

560
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: For most people, the hazing ritual may be something that

561
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 3: they look back on in twenty years and think, God,

562
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: that was a bit silly, but at the time it

563
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: was fun. And also, as human beings, we bond through

564
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 3: shared adversity. So when you've got a group of first

565
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: years or they call them freshers, and they're all having

566
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: to you know, drink till they vomit or whatever it is,

567
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: the next day, after you've participated in that group bonding activity,

568
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: you actually feel solidarity with the other people that went

569
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 3: through that with you. So because I mean, if you

570
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: look at the army, or if you look.

571
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: At I was thinking, like tactical policing, they break you

572
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: all down, your share the pain, and they punish you

573
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: and then your.

574
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: Mates for life.

575
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's part of it's human nature, isn't the

576
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: psychology of it?

577
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: It is, so I can understand why then those individuals

578
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: who have gone through those shared bonding, shared adversity experiences

579
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 3: then do firstly feel very connected to each other, but

580
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: also why then when you have an outsider like a

581
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: journalist criticizing that culture, they become very very defensive. So

582
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: they develop we call it a siege mentality where if anything,

583
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: they sort of they bunk it down. You are painted

584
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 3: as the outsider and the enemy, and so that can

585
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: actually at times, that can It's sort of it's a

586
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: paradox as a journalist because on the one hand, you

587
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: want to shine a light and document what's happening in

588
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 3: the culture in order to demonstrate the need for cultural change.

589
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: But at the same time, I'm conscious that every time

590
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: I write these articles or I produce something like the

591
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: Red Zone Report, there is a risk that you then

592
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 3: further entrench that culture.

593
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: You're pushing against them, and so they bunk it down

594
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: and come back harder or more resilient in the world.

595
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: Well, or they changed their tactics. So one of the

596
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 3: things that happened in twenty fourteen was their Wesley College

597
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 3: at Sydney University had produced this magazine called the RAQWB

598
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: where they were documenting all of the students who had

599
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 3: hooked up with each other. And it was this sort

600
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: of slut shaming document and that was exposed by some

601
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 3: of the students who were whistleblowers. These whistleblowers at Wesley

602
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 3: College had exposed what was happening, and the response, well,

603
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: one of the responses to that was to then not

604
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 3: change the culture, just ban mobile phones at parties and

605
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 3: you know, getting people to in other words, becoming more secretive, becoming.

606
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: More in solid closed doors exactly.

607
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: And so we know that when these stories do in

608
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: the media and there is for a brief moment a spotlight,

609
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 3: the reaction tends to be from within the culture tends

610
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 3: to be highly defensive and then to become more secretive,

611
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: more insular, to implement more I guess protections around to

612
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 3: try to sort of shield out the media and to

613
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 3: blame the media. And I remember like, actually, you know,

614
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 3: you asked me at the beginning, who am I and

615
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: where did I come from? So when I was in

616
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 3: year twelve, you know, back being being editor of one

617
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 3: of the editors of the school newspaper, I went to

618
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: a school called PLC Croyden and one of our schools,

619
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 3: the schools in the area, called Trinity Grammar, was on

620
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 3: the front page of the Daily Telegraph. There was a

621
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 3: big news story that came out where a number of

622
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 3: the boarders in the boarding house had been held down

623
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: in sexually assaulted and there was an implement that was

624
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: made in woodwork class that they called the anaconda, and

625
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: they were using this to rape the boys, the older boarders.

626
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: And I remember when that story broke so distinctly because

627
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 3: a lot of us girls, you know, we used to

628
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: do debates against Trinity Grammar. A lot of us if

629
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 3: we had brothers, our brothers went to Trinity Grammar.

630
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: You've had an affiliation with the school.

631
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had social dances together, if we had boyfriends,

632
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 3: they might go to Trinity Grammar, that kind of thing.

633
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: So when that story broke, it didn't just impact their school,

634
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 3: it impacted our school, and a lot of the boarders

635
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 3: in our boarding house had brothers in that boarding house.

636
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 3: And I remember walking into the year twelve common room

637
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: having read the story and having been utterly disgusted and horrified,

638
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: And one of the first things that I heard in

639
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 3: our common room was, Oh, it's just a media beat up. Oh,

640
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 3: the media is these people who are writing these stories

641
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 3: are just jealous that they can't afford to go to

642
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 3: schools like ours.

643
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: And it's a wrong response to this.

644
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then hearing the same sort of attitudes by

645
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 3: the parents at school pickup of oh, it's just boys

646
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: being boys, you know, all of these attitudes which minimize, downplay, shift, responsibility,

647
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 3: cover up. And I remember at the time as a

648
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, I would have been about seventeen at this point,

649
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: being horrified by the violence, but also horrified by the

650
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: attitudes that were unfolding around me. And unfortunately, what happened

651
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 3: in that case was the school, Trinity Grammar, engaged a

652
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: crisis comms manager and that person who and I know

653
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: this person, that person their job was to spin the

654
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: story in the media. Now, this was a case of

655
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 3: game rape, and numerous numerous attacks had happened. The boys

656
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: responsible were charged with sexual assaults. But what this common

657
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 3: specialist did was instead of talking about instead of using

658
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 3: the term sexual assault, he started using the word bullying.

659
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 3: There's a bullying problem in our boarding houses. And so

660
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: the conversation very quickly moved away from gang rape. And

661
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: you can actually go back and look at all the

662
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 3: headlines at the time. And after six months, by the

663
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: time the case finally went to trial, the media went

664
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 3: referring to it as sexual assault anymore. They were referring

665
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: to it as bullying. And of course bullying is a

666
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: much more sanitized term. And of course the moment you

667
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: change the goalposts and we're no longer talking about sexual violence,

668
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 3: we're now talking about a culture of bullying. The school

669
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: then decided that they would call themselves a victim of

670
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 3: bullying by the big bad media, and so and the

671
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 3: principle at the time put out this horrendous newsletter saying

672
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 3: that the school's being bullying. And so this whole victim

673
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 3: mentality sits in of where the culture becomes defensive, hyper defensive.

674
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: But also they other the attacker as being the media,

675
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: that the media are the ones at fault. We're the

676
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 3: poor victims here where being bullied. This is a bullying

677
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 3: problem that we alves are the bullying victims. And you know,

678
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: one of the things that I've always said is that

679
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 3: had that I mean, the media comms crisis guy did

680
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: an extraordinary job. I think had that been managed differently,

681
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 3: that Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse

682
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: that we got up in twenty eighteen, I was at school.

683
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 3: This was back in two thousand. We could have had

684
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 3: that Royal commission eighteen years earlier, had that conversation played

685
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 3: out differently in the media. And this is what this

686
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 3: is also what got me really interested about, well, what

687
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: is the media's role in these moments? How what is

688
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 3: the role of the media to shape and direct the

689
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: conversation towards different ends? And in that moment, the media

690
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: missed a pivotal opportunity to talk about sexual assault in

691
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: these institutions.

692
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: I look at that and it always amazes me where

693
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: they talk about that was bullying and it's boys being boys.

694
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: It was clearly sexual assault.

695
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: You can't dress it up any other way, but it

696
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: gets lost in the narrative and the telling and what

697
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: that media consultant did, Yes he spun it, but the public.

698
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: And when I say the public, I'm not saying everyone

699
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: out there, but I know there would be a narrative

700
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: within the public too. It's boys being boys. That's not

701
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: boys being boys. It's sexual assault, violent sexual assault.

702
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: And how do they hide behind that type of commentary?

703
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: And I think I mean that sort of language, which

704
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: part of it is a language issue about minimizing and

705
00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: reframing and so on and justifying. I think also the

706
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: fact that the victims were male. And you know, keep

707
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 3: in mind, so this is more than two decades ago

708
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 3: now this as I said, it was about two thousand

709
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 3: that this happened. Thankfully, I think we've come a long

710
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 3: way nowadays with understanding that sexual violence impacts boys too,

711
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: but particularly back then, that was very much erased from

712
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 3: the conversation. It was like we didn't have the appropriate

713
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 3: frameworks or language to properly discuss sexual violence a targeting boys.

714
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 2: Would I take it further?

715
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: Would you also think back when we're going back two decades,

716
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: it's almost too confronting that boys at this, yeah, highly

717
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: reputable school are involved in homosexual rates. Yeah, that's the

718
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 1: word that they want to bring in that they're not homosexual,

719
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: they're just being boys being boys. That's really the discussion,

720
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: isn't it.

721
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 3: So you're absolutely right there is a homophobia. Yeah, in

722
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 3: playing into this as well, Yeah, without doubt in a

723
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 3: past life again sort of jumping around the.

724
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: We've got to jump because we're having this conversation.

725
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: I'm thinking the conversation we're having now would be remarkably

726
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: different from twenty years ago to where we are now.

727
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: But thank god we've evolved.

728
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the thing I was going to say was

729
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 3: I was also part of a team that was led

730
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: by Professor Catherine Lumbee who the team was responsible for

731
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 3: doing research into NRL footy players and then developing educational

732
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: frameworks to address their attitudes towards violence against women and consent.

733
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 3: And when Professor Lumbee was doing the research, one of

734
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: the do you want me to tell me the story

735
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: of Okay, so what had happened?

736
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: I'm from the notes out here in the Yeah, ch

737
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by what you're saying.

738
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 3: So this was back in around two thousand and four,

739
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 3: I believe it was. There was a very famous incident

740
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 3: involving the Bulldogs and allegations of a rape.

741
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: Up at Coffs Harbor I remember it.

742
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 3: And at the time, the CEO was a guy called

743
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 3: David Gallup and he contacted Professor Catherine Lumby and said,

744
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 3: so she was my supervisor and mentor, and he said

745
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: what do we do? And she essentially said, well, are

746
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: you asking me as a media expert because you want

747
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: a crisis comms plan? Or are you asking me as

748
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 3: a gender expert because you want help? And he made

749
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 3: it very clear that they had a problem and they

750
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 3: needed help with the culture. And so Catherine Lumby's response was, well,

751
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: the first thing is that you can't just roll out

752
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 3: some pre existing off the shelf education program because you've

753
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 3: got a very unique culture and you're going to have

754
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: to develop something tailored from the ground up. So Catherine said,

755
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: the first thing that we need to do is actually

756
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: do the research and take the temperature of the culture

757
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 3: and get a snapshot of what's going on. And part

758
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 3: of that research, there were a whole bunch of people

759
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 3: that did that research. Part of what they did was

760
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 3: they asked players, player managers, women who had interactions with

761
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 3: the clubs, etc. About their experiences. And you don't ask

762
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 3: people have you ever raped somebody? Because most people who

763
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 3: have committed sexual violence. A, they're not going to admit it,

764
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 3: but B most of the time they don't actually realize

765
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: that that's what they're doing. They don't classify it necessarily

766
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 3: as rape. So they asked them to tell us about

767
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: a night that turned pear shaped, what does that look?

768
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: And from that they got some really rich data around

769
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: what was happening back then, and they found there were

770
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 3: some very interesting findings. One of them was that individuals

771
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 3: who would express horror at the concept of rape, who

772
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 3: would then go on to admit to having done something

773
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 3: that met the legal definition of rape, like having I'm

774
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 3: using quotations, having sex with a pasted out woman. But

775
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 3: they also found that there were individuals who were in

776
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 3: the code who were horrified by what was going on

777
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 3: but didn't have the skill sets or the language to

778
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 3: speak up. And I'll never forget there was one story

779
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: that has always stuck with me of and I'll do

780
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: identify it. But if you can imagine an eighteen year

781
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: old kid who's from a country town, who's never been

782
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 3: to the big smoke, and he's plucked out of that

783
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 3: country town and he's put into an A grade team

784
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 3: and they're at an away game, because that's where many

785
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: of the unethical things would happen because you don't have

786
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 3: the usual handbrakes in place. There's a woman involved, and

787
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 3: there's a team involved, and there's a lot of alcohol involved,

788
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 3: and he sitting there looking down into his beer, thinking

789
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: what's happening right now is not okay? How does he

790
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 3: speak up in that moment? And that's not to excuse

791
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: not speaking up, but it's to realize that within any

792
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: of these environments, there's often more than one victim, and

793
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 3: there are people who walk out of that very very scarred,

794
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 3: who wish they had the skills to be able to intervene,

795
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 3: and they're what I consider the sleeper cells. How do

796
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: we access these people who actually did I remember someone

797
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 3: once told me she called it the five percent dickhead rule,

798
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 3: which is in any culture, in any community, in any organization,

799
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 3: in any company, there are going to be five percent

800
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: of people who are just flat out of dickheads. They're

801
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 3: always born dickheads. They're going to stay do.

802
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: I think that's a pretty good rule.

803
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: And there's also the opposite five percent of people who

804
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 3: are very very ethical, strongly minded individuals. And the challenge

805
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: is the ninety percent in the middle, and who are

806
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 3: they being laid by. Is it the bottom five percent

807
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 3: who are setting the tone or is it the top

808
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: five percent? And one of the challenges with the NRL

809
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 3: at the time was a lot of the culture was

810
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 3: being set by some of the bottom five percent. So

811
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: how do you find firstly, how do you identify that

812
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: top five percent who are actually in there, but they're

813
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 3: quiet and they're disempowered. How do you find them? How

814
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 3: do you equip them with the skills to become leaders

815
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 3: and get them to actually shift the tone of the culture.

816
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: The other thing that the research I'm just remembering the

817
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: research found back then was that there were also a

818
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 3: whole lot of behaviors that were going on that weren't

819
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 3: technically criminal, but they were certainly unethical. So I'll give

820
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 3: you an example, having sex, having consensual sex with a woman.

821
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: Everything's fine, everything's consensual, orgasms all around, everybody's happy, and

822
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: then five minutes after it's over, saying fuck off your

823
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 3: slag and throwing clothes at her. Is it criminal?

824
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: It does cross the line of criminal, but there's an

825
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: ethical and.

826
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 3: Moral absolutely, And so as a result of that, one

827
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: of the things that became very apparent was that it's

828
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 3: not just it's not enough just to educate people about

829
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 3: the laws around consent, because the laws AT's a very

830
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 3: very base.

831
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: Because I go as far to say that in the

832
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: scenario you put there, if someone's prepared to do that,

833
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 1: I think it's a very fine line between then sexually

834
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 1: abusing someone.

835
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

836
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, their moral compass is way off.

837
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 3: Skill absolutely, which is why the work that was being

838
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: done back then with the NRL that there was a

839
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: very very strong emphasis on it's not enough just to

840
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: teach laws. You have to have that ethical component and

841
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 3: you have to have that ethical framework otherwise you do

842
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 3: get these sorts.

843
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: Of It makes a lot of sense in what you're saying,

844
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: how do you get these people you said, skills? My

845
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: word was going to come out courage, because I think

846
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: I might be that articulate, but if I've got the

847
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: courage to do something, I'll make it clear. But it

848
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: takes people with the backbone to stand up and say

849
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: things like that. Yeah.

850
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting because there is a lot of

851
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 3: research around and why do bystanders in these situations either

852
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 3: take action or not take action? And what the research

853
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 3: shows is that in order for someone to be what's

854
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: good an ethical bystanderd to actually take action, There's a

855
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: whole sort of things that have to be in place first.

856
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: So they have to recognize the problem as a problem.

857
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 3: They have to because not you know, sometimes people don't

858
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: know what it is that they're looking at. They have

859
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 3: to interpret it as a problem. They also have to

860
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 3: feel sufficiently personally responsible, because often people will look around

861
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 3: and think, well, why is it my job to like,

862
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 3: you know, they're waiting for somebody else to take charge.

863
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 3: And they also have to feel that they have sufficient

864
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: personal power and social power that if they do speak

865
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 3: up it's not going to backfire on them, that they're

866
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: not going to socially embarrass themselves or lose face in

867
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 3: that moment. And one of the things that I remember

868
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: looking at some research that came out of the US

869
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 3: about this idea of ethical bystander behavior and how do

870
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 3: you promote it. There was a group that was actually

871
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 3: they were actually looking at the issue of bullying in schools,

872
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 3: and they went into a school and they did a

873
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: survey to find out how many of the students used

874
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: bullying type behaviors or had say pro bulling attitude. So

875
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 3: they excused bulling behavior, and they found that one in

876
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 3: five students had was using bullying tactics or was enabling bullying.

877
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 3: And so the researchers went back to the school and

878
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 3: they did a school presentation and assembly and they didn't

879
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: say to the students one in five of you are

880
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 3: bullies or one in five of you you know a

881
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 3: little shit. They did the opposite. They said, four in

882
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: five of you are not bullies. Well done, give yourselves

883
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 3: a pat on the back.

884
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: That's great.

885
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: And this is what we call positive social norm theory,

886
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 3: where what you're trying to do is you're trying to

887
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,959
Speaker 3: reinforce the dominant positive behavior as the social norm. Because

888
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 3: what that does is if you're sitting in that assembly

889
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 3: hall and you're one of the five who is a bully,

890
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 3: you suddenly realize you're actually in the minority.

891
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 1: The two people are that would make you feel uncomfortable

892
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 1: for all of a sudden, thinking you've got the power,

893
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: it's been taken away with you, absolutely taken away from

894
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: you us, you'd say, and.

895
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: You're in the minority where and you know, we're social animals,

896
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 3: were herd animals. We want to know the safety empower

897
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 3: in numbers. But it also lets those four in five

898
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: people know, hey, if you do speak up when you

899
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 3: see something, you know, if it's a racist comment or

900
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 3: a sexist comment or whatever it is, or a homophobic comment,

901
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 3: if you speak up, four in five of the people

902
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 3: around you are actually really relieved that you did that

903
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: and actually supportive of you doing that. And so what

904
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: they found after they presented the research was that they

905
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 3: they they went away, and then they came back and

906
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 3: they they did the research again with the school, and

907
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 3: they found that just by having done that one intervention

908
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 3: of presenting that research in that way to the students,

909
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 3: the rates of bulling dropped further. And when they went back,

910
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 3: they found that ninety percent of students now didn't engage

911
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 3: in bulling behavior. And we're not supportive of bulling behavior.

912
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 3: So there's some really interesting ramifications for this sort of

913
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 3: research because often if you look at how we talk about, say,

914
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 3: sexual violence in Australia, and I know yesterday you mentioned

915
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 3: to me about, you know, rape myths and so on,

916
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 3: and one of the things that I've been really interested

917
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 3: in is okay, so if you look at how we

918
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 3: talk about things, we might see a statistic that says

919
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 3: one in five I think it is young Australians believe

920
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 3: that if a woman was drunk when sexually assaulted, that

921
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 3: she was in she was part way responsible for the

922
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 3: sexual violence. Okay, we should actually be reframing that statistic

923
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 3: in the reverse, we should actually be saying four in

924
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 3: five young Australians do not believe that a person who

925
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 3: is drunk is responsible if they experience sexual violence, because

926
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: what that does is it reaffirms the positive and we know,

927
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 3: again from research like with juries, there's this paradox that

928
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 3: every time you mention a rape myth in order to

929
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 3: critique it ironically, you actually end up reaffirming and reinforcing

930
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 3: that rape myth because that's what people remember. So we

931
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 3: need to really quite radically change our approach to how

932
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: we discuss rape myths and sexual violence. So in you know,

933
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 3: some of the reporting that I'm doing, I try to

934
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: focus on the positive social norm of what people you know,

935
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 3: the fact that the majority of Australians don't think that

936
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 3: someone who is drunk is responsible if they're experiencing sexual violence,

937
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 3: and keep normalizing that as this is what most people believe,

938
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: because it calls out those who then hold that minority

939
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 3: viewpoint rather than reinforcing the minority viewpoint. But of course

940
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 3: one of the challenges as a journalist is that we

941
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 3: know that, you know, we focus on the shocking statistics,

942
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 3: the shock factor.

943
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: How do you get there the cross Yeah, But I

944
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: find it fascinating what you're saying and just whinding it

945
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: back to the school situation all of a sudden, that's

946
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: you've ostracized the bully. Yeah, by just changing the terminology

947
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: and the way it's approached. Yeah.

948
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 3: And there was there was a case in Steubenville in

949
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: the US where so that's a little country town and

950
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 3: there was a football team who were the pride and

951
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 3: joy of this town, the school, the high school football team,

952
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: and there was a party one night and following a game,

953
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 3: and at the first part of the party, the players

954
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 3: were getting quite drunk. What happened was the party then

955
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 3: moved on and at the second location there was a

956
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 3: girl who was passed out in the basement and she

957
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 3: was sexually assaulted and that was filmed on camera, and

958
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 3: then that went viral on the internet, and a group

959
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 3: called Anonymous then sort of went and tracked down the

960
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,919
Speaker 3: individuals responsible and so on, and it blew up into

961
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 3: this massive, massive front page court case that went international.

962
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 3: But there was one individual there that night who I've

963
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 3: become I was quite interested in, a guy called Evan Westlake.

964
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 3: Now he was not one of the perpetrators and he

965
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 3: wasn't one of the victims. Earlier on in the night,

966
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 3: when they'd been at the first party and everybody was drinking,

967
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 3: he saw one of his mates get very very drunk

968
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,959
Speaker 3: and go to get his car keys to drive home,

969
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 3: and in that moment, Evan Westlake stepped in, took his

970
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 3: mate's car keys off him, told him not to drive,

971
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 3: and got his mate home safely. So, you know, ten

972
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 3: out of ten ethical bystander behavior. Great work. Later on

973
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 3: in the night, at the second house party, Evan Westlake

974
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 3: actually walked in on the sexual assault of the unconscious

975
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 3: girl in progress. And when he walked in, he said,

976
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 3: night boys, I'm heading.

977
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: Off, and he left, didn't address it.

978
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: And later when he was at the trial, they asked him.

979
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 3: He actually gave evidence for the victims to support the victims,

980
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 3: and they asked him, why didn't you say something? Why

981
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 3: didn't you why didn't you speak up? Why didn't you

982
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 3: do something in that moment? And he said because I

983
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 3: didn't know that's what rape looked like. And what I

984
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 3: find really interesting about that example is that this is,

985
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 3: you know, he thought rape was someone who jumps out

986
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 3: from behind the bushes.

987
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 2: Wearing a balaclav wearing.

988
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 3: A bellaclava, who's physically very violent. That you see that

989
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 3: you also see signs of resistance from the victim. He

990
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 3: wasn't taught what consent was. He wasn't taught what sexual

991
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 3: violence actually looks like. So this is an otherwise. You know,

992
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: this is a guy who earlier on that same evening

993
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: had demonstrated the capacity to act as an ethical bystander,

994
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: but in a sexual astay situation he did not, and

995
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 3: he felt very, very guilty about that after all.

996
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't have expected that answer from him. I

997
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: thought it would have been, well, I couldn't have done anything.

998
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: I was scared, I was the whole range of things.

999
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: But I didn't expect that, and that came across the

1000
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: way you relate that they're very truthful, And.

1001
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 3: What you know, one of the things that when I've

1002
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 3: written about this case is that I've said that Evan

1003
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 3: Westlake's choices that night reflect both the success of drink

1004
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 3: driving messaging in America. Sorry, but the absolute failure of

1005
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 3: consent and sexual violence prevention education because this is an

1006
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: individual who otherwise had he had the knowledge. And that's

1007
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 3: why I said before. You know, when we talk about

1008
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 3: ethical bystanders and the factors which encourage someone to take

1009
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 3: an intervention step, the very first thing is noticing the

1010
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 3: harm and interpreting the harm correctly. You can have all

1011
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 3: the ethical bystanders skills in the world, which he did,

1012
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 3: but he didn't notice the harm or interpret the harm correctly.

1013
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 3: So that's why, you know, if we're looking at well,

1014
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 3: what does it mean to do effective sexual violence prevention

1015
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 3: education in Australia. Absolutely we need consent education, but we

1016
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 3: need to really also talk about, well, what does sexual

1017
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 3: violence look like? What is it? And not shy away

1018
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 3: from these conversations. I've got a three year old son now,

1019
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: and you know, we keep it age appropriate, but we're

1020
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 3: already talking about consent in terms of his body and

1021
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,479
Speaker 3: sharing toys and you know, not taking other toys without

1022
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 3: other people's toys without asking, and giving hugs, and you know,

1023
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 3: like you keep it age appropriate, but you can introduce

1024
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 3: those concepts very early on.

1025
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: And I think there is a role to play.

1026
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: Like we've talked when the kids have left home or

1027
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: where young adults have left home at university or starting

1028
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: in the football team, but it starts from an early age,

1029
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: doesn't in the home? What's acceptable what's not acceptable? Tell

1030
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: me with the football culture. And we're winding back to

1031
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, do you think there's been progress?

1032
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 3: I don't know, And I think until there is research

1033
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 3: to demonstrate one way or the other, I wouldn't want

1034
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 3: to hypothesize. I think that within the wider community there

1035
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 3: is certainly evolution and growth, and I think we've become

1036
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 3: a lot more comfortable talking about these problems than we

1037
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 3: used to be. I remember when I first went public

1038
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 3: as a survivor myself. That was back in two thousand

1039
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 3: and seven, and it was a completely different context. And

1040
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 3: I you know, I sometimes think that you know, the

1041
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 3: younger generations, you don't know what you don't know and

1042
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 3: fair enough, and like when I went public, there weren't

1043
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 3: very many other survivors of sexual violence who had gone public.

1044
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 3: There was teag and Wagner, but it was very you know,

1045
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 3: this was before the media movement, before and before social

1046
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 3: I think, you know, one of the things that social

1047
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 3: media has done is that it's made survivors visible to

1048
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 3: each other, that you can connect with each other not

1049
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 3: just through a hashtag, but through meaningful online engagement with

1050
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 3: there's you know, with online groups and so on. And

1051
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 3: I think that people finding community on.

1052
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 2: The strength in the fact that you're not law.

1053
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that that has definitely, you know,

1054
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: for a crime which is so steeped in often anyway,

1055
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: it's often steeped in shame and stigma and isolation. Social

1056
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 3: media has been a real antidote in terms of being

1057
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 3: able to break down that isolation. And then in turn,

1058
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 3: I think over time, then people once they find each

1059
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 3: other and they're able to distill through some of the

1060
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 3: issues and make sense. And you know, often you know,

1061
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 3: survivors will be much harder on themselves than they would

1062
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 3: ever be on their worst enemy. They will blame themselves

1063
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 3: when they would never blame somebody else who'd been through

1064
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 3: their experience. And when they see that reflected in other

1065
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 3: in peers, that can help build the confidence to their

1066
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:09,479
Speaker 3: own and re well.

1067
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: Not even sexual assaults, but I see victims in a

1068
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: lot of crimes sometimes blame themselves and they're the victims,

1069
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: and you have to point that out that you're not

1070
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: to blame. It's not by your actions or you walk there,

1071
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:24,600
Speaker 1: or you did this or you should have done that.

1072
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: You're a victim.

1073
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: Someone's committed the offense. You're not to blame for it.

1074
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 1: But I think it's just part of the psyche that

1075
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: victims go through when they're mulling over what's happened. How

1076
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: could they prevented that. I'm curious because I look at it,

1077
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: and you've taught me a lot, just in the short

1078
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: conversation as you've reckmen notes, but you've taught You've taught

1079
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: me a lot. I always think in those organizations and

1080
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 1: I look at it, I look at it a blow

1081
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: key point of view in the football environment, and I

1082
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: see that groups of males. How do you have educate

1083
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: people to really stand up and be strong? Because I can,

1084
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: let's take it away from sexual assault, corruption within the police.

1085
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: I know there's some charismatic people that are in the

1086
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: areas I've worked in. If they take people down the

1087
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 1: wrong path, people tend to follow, and it's only a

1088
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: few that will stand up. How do we get those

1089
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: role models? Because I think it's not just males that

1090
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: can females as well. How do we create those role

1091
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: models where people feel empowered to stand up and you're

1092
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: not going to get criticized. Some people might not like you,

1093
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: and you you might lose some aspects of your friendships

1094
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: or your career.

1095
01:02:37,160 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: But how are we going to encourage people to speak up?

1096
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 3: So I think the first thing is that it's not

1097
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: about trying to change the individual. It's about changing the

1098
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: environment around them so that if a person does take

1099
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 3: the step to speak up, they know what the response

1100
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 3: is going to be and they feel safe to do it.

1101
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 3: So it's about changing the environment to make it very

1102
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 3: clear to people that if you do speak up about

1103
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 3: whatever the problem is, that there will be that the

1104
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 3: reaction from the institution or the organization or the community

1105
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 3: will be a supportive reaction, because when you know people

1106
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:21,439
Speaker 3: are if you hear you know, somebody tells And we've

1107
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 3: all done this, We've all, every single one of us

1108
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,919
Speaker 3: has been in a situation in our life where we've

1109
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 3: heard a joke that has crossed the line or a

1110
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 3: comment that's crossed the line, and it's made us uncomfortable,

1111
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 3: and we've known it's wrong, and we wanted to say something,

1112
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 3: but we didn't. And if you look at and you

1113
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 3: unpack why didn't we, often it's because there is a

1114
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 3: fear of social failure if we speak up and we

1115
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 3: get it wrong, or that we're going to speak up

1116
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 3: and then we're going to become the next target of

1117
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 3: the bully or the person who's making the inappropriate comment.

1118
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 3: So part of the way you change that is is

1119
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 3: that you I mean, ideally you change the behavior in

1120
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 3: the first place, and you'd prevent those attitudes to begin with.

1121
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 3: But failing that, the way that you address that is

1122
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 3: that you make it really clear that if a person

1123
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 3: speaks up, the social response is not going to be

1124
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 3: one of backlash or one of humiliation. It's going to

1125
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 3: be one of relief. And that's one of the things

1126
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 3: that people are often really surprised to learn is that

1127
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 3: I remember doing a workshop this is again in a

1128
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 3: previous role of my previous life, but doing a workshop

1129
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 3: with some high school students, some high school boys, about

1130
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 3: ethical bystander behavior, and we were exploring a situation, a

1131
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 3: true story, true situation that had happened where a group

1132
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 3: of young guys, high school students, I think they're about

1133
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 3: fifteen years old, had been at a party. Parents were

1134
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: away for the weekend house party, etc. One of the

1135
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 3: boys had passed out drunk and his mates, having a joke,

1136
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 3: having a laugh, got out the old magic marker and

1137
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 3: you know, started drawing things on his face and you know,

1138
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 3: writing things on his on his body. And then one

1139
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 3: of the kids took it one step further and decided

1140
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 3: to super glue this kid's eyelashes shut, thinking that when

1141
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 3: he woke up and his eyelashes with super glued shut,

1142
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 3: he'd think he you know, he was literally blind and

1143
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 3: you know, blah blah blah. You can see how this

1144
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 3: can happen, right, And they did that, and then one

1145
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 3: of the friends went, you know what, We've gone too far.

1146
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 3: We shouldn't have done this. I'm going to google what

1147
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 3: removes super glue? Do you know what removes super glued?

1148
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 2: What does remove super glue?

1149
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: I've never I've never super glued anyone's eyelashes.

1150
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 3: So one of the things is acetone, right, okay, So

1151
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 3: now polish removing exactly. So they google this and they're like,

1152
01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 3: all right, now polish remover. So they go off and

1153
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 3: they find and the mother's now polish remover and they're

1154
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 3: just about to start putting now polish remover on this

1155
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 3: kid's eyes. When the same kid who had said I

1156
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 3: don't think we should have you know, this has gone

1157
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 3: too far says, I don't know if we should be

1158
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 3: doing this. I'm going to call my mom now. The

1159
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 3: moment that fifteen year old boy says, I'm going to

1160
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 3: call my mom, how did the other fifteen year old

1161
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 3: boys react.

1162
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 2: Oh, they would have gone in the panic.

1163
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 3: Mate, it died, call your mom. And thankfully, this particular

1164
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 3: kid had the kind of relationship with his parents. The

1165
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 3: mother was a nurse, and the kind of relationship where

1166
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 3: he felt empowered to do that and knew that he

1167
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 3: would not get in trouble. Knew that the response from

1168
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 3: mum would be helpful. So he called his mum and

1169
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 3: the mum said, do not put now polishing anywhey, that's

1170
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 3: kid's eyes. Now polish remover can cause blindness. And she said,

1171
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 3: I'm coming straight over. She got, she came up, They

1172
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 3: got the kid to hospital. They had to pluck out

1173
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 3: his eyelashes from memory, but they saved the kid's eyesight.

1174
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 3: And I was doing this having this conversation with this

1175
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,439
Speaker 3: group of young guys and I said, you know, put

1176
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,959
Speaker 3: yourself in the shoes of that kid when he says,

1177
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 3: I'm going to call my mom and all of your

1178
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 3: mates are saying no, no, no, no, no where we're going

1179
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 3: to get busted. You know, we're all drinking under it.

1180
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:25,720
Speaker 3: You know, how hard is it to be that kid

1181
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 3: when all of your mates are telling you no and

1182
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 3: to follow through and call your mum.

1183
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 2: It's hard.

1184
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 3: But now put yourself in his shoes the next day,

1185
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 3: when a doctor tells you, well done, su, you just

1186
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 3: saved your mate's eye sight, how good do you feel

1187
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 3: in that moment? And so all of us, at some

1188
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 3: point in our life have been in that position where

1189
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 3: we should have done something and we didn't, and we

1190
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 3: felt regret later and we felt shame later that we

1191
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 3: didn't do it. But we've also all been in a

1192
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 3: situation at some point where we have actually u up

1193
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 3: for somebody or we have taken a step to intervene,

1194
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 3: and you feel and to reflect on how you feel afterwards.

1195
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 3: And even though it is risky, emotionally risky at the time,

1196
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 3: and you do feel uncomfortable sticking your head out, you

1197
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 3: do feel good afterwards. And that's and talking about these

1198
01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 3: things and unpacking the feelings is actually one way in

1199
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 3: which we can begin intervening in and giving people the

1200
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 3: skills to actually do this, to reflect on.

1201
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: Times stories like that, that would be a good story.

1202
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: That's telling school for people to understand that there can

1203
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 1: be consequences from what appeared.

1204
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 2: Or start off is innocent and no one, no one.

1205
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 1: Spake up, but it's hard, like it's hard and invariably,

1206
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 1: and we start off talking about in university, people are

1207
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 1: vulnerable in that environment because you're coming there and you're

1208
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 1: desperate to belong. It's your first day at your new school. Basically,

1209
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 1: that's right.

1210
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 3: And you know, I remember, just you know, talking about

1211
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 3: some of these stories. I remember being sixteen myself and

1212
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:56,439
Speaker 3: being at a house party where there were no parents

1213
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 3: and there was a lot of drinking going on and

1214
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 3: seeing girl very very drunk on the couch and a

1215
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 3: bit of a creepy guy acting a bit too close,

1216
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 3: and I remember looking around thinking where are her friends?

1217
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 3: Why isn't somebody going in? And it never occurred to

1218
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 3: me that I could be that person, because back then,

1219
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 3: you know, there was I firstly, I hadn't had any

1220
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 3: education about ethical bystander behavior It wasn't until I started

1221
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 3: working in this space. And then I remember, like as

1222
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 3: a in my twenties, being in clubs and seeing I

1223
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,720
Speaker 3: remember seeing one particular young woman in a club who

1224
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 3: was very drunk standing against a wall and this guy

1225
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 3: clearly she didn't want him around her, and he kept

1226
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 3: going back, and I remember watching this for a second,

1227
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 3: and again I didn't know her, but because I'd had

1228
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,680
Speaker 3: this education and I was sort of working in this

1229
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 3: space now, I just walked over to her and very

1230
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 3: casually said, hey, hon, do you know where the bathrooms are?

1231
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 2: Oh?

1232
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,600
Speaker 3: Do you want to come with me? And pulling her

1233
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 3: into the bathroom and just being like you, okay, do

1234
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 3: you know that guy? Now? Again took two minutes out

1235
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 3: of my life. Simplest intervention in terms of in terms

1236
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 3: of what it cost me of my night, but may

1237
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 3: have been the difference. And she wasn't comfortable, she wasn't okay,

1238
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 3: And so then I was able to find where her

1239
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 3: friends were and connect her back with her friends. But again,

1240
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 3: like with all of these actions, if we're talking about

1241
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:33,839
Speaker 3: sexual violence prevention or prevention of any kind of negative behavior,

1242
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 3: often it's you know so much of I guess what

1243
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 3: I'm trying to say. So much of our prevention efforts

1244
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 3: are focused on how do we prevent the offender from

1245
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 3: doing the offending, and I think that's very important that

1246
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 3: we have that focus, but we also need to look

1247
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 3: at the role of bystanders and work out how is

1248
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 3: a community do we operate, what values do we hold?

1249
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,640
Speaker 3: How do we educate our kids of what to do

1250
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 3: if they're in a situation so that they can step

1251
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:04,799
Speaker 3: up or step in and be that bystander who.

1252
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's fighting crime one a one, like if the

1253
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 1: victim and you try to prevent all strengthen that when

1254
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 1: banks were robbed, and it's a horrible analogy, but banks

1255
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: robbed all the time. Then they got security screens in

1256
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,680
Speaker 1: and CCTV footage made it almost impossible to run in

1257
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 1: and rob a bank. You're talking about creating an environment,

1258
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: and this is my takeaway on it, through education and

1259
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:35,639
Speaker 1: understanding that helps protect potential victims. Creating an environment that

1260
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 1: it's more difficult to do. That analogy that you used

1261
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: in the nightclub, like we've all seen people and you

1262
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: walk past and you think, well, it's not really my

1263
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 1: business and that, but if we all looked out for

1264
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,200
Speaker 1: each other. Maybe we do make it harder for I

1265
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 1: call them creeps. I can't help. But the people, let's

1266
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: call it for what it is, they shit me, the

1267
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,000
Speaker 1: ones that take advantage of vulnerable people.

1268
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 3: And yeah, and giving young people the scripts of like

1269
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 3: if in that moment it's too risky for you to

1270
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 3: go and do something or say something, who else in

1271
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 3: the environment can you draw on the bouncer, the bartender

1272
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 3: that you know, Like.

1273
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, because sometimes that it might be a

1274
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: personal physical risk. It's stepping in, but you've got people

1275
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 1: there that they're in control.

1276
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 3: And it's also going to be a very different reaction.

1277
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 3: Like if we use that scenario of the girl in

1278
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 3: the bar, it's a very big difference between me walking

1279
01:12:26,320 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 3: over and new walking over because of gender and how

1280
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 3: that's coded. And you know, for a guy walking over

1281
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 3: to step in could become very adversarial very quickly with

1282
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 3: that guy, whereas a girl it's a woman, it can diffuse.

1283
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 3: So again it's also about thinking how what is the

1284
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 3: best way to diffuse this situation? Who else is available

1285
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,480
Speaker 3: in this environment? Is it about going to a bartender

1286
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 3: or a stuff or having a female go and check

1287
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 3: on the female to see issues. Okay, you know there's

1288
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 3: different ways of exploring scenarios, and I think a lot

1289
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,400
Speaker 3: of that education that's been done around ethical by standard

1290
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 3: behavior and so on draws on these real life scenarios

1291
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 3: to get people to unpack. You know that there's not

1292
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:10,440
Speaker 3: necessarily one right answer to resolve any of these scenarios,

1293
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:12,960
Speaker 3: but it's about exploring what are the tools available in

1294
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 3: each of these scenarios.

1295
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:17,360
Speaker 1: Well, I think we're going to call part one ethical

1296
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: bystander behavior because I think a great message to get

1297
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 1: out there, very good message. Let's take a break now,

1298
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,479
Speaker 1: I'll rip my notes up and we'll come back, and

1299
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure we've got a lot more to talk about.

1300
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:33,639
Speaker 1: But look, I just want to say, Nina, sitting down

1301
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: and speaking to you, I'm learning a learning a lot

1302
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 1: about different approaches and how to make a difference. So

1303
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 1: full credit to you on the message in that you're

1304
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:43,799
Speaker 1: getting across.

1305
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 2: Thank you.