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Speaker 1: Appoche production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand. For two years in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, a cunning and daring armed robber ran rampant

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Speaker 1: across the Victorian countryside, robbing banks and tab agencies at

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Speaker 1: a fantastic rate.

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Speaker 2: He plunted banks and tabs, terrifying staff and.

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Speaker 1: Customers, sometimes hitting the same banks twice or three times,

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Speaker 1: and becoming ever more bold mysterious figure linked to multiple

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Speaker 1: bank heists with no clear pattern or trace. Police were

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Speaker 1: amazed that the bandit could pull off two jobs within

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes in towns dozens of kilometers apart. Authorities are

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Speaker 1: stumped as the same man appears to be in two

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Speaker 1: places at once. The brazen gun man often hit his

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Speaker 1: targets just before closing time, disappearing into the bush under

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Speaker 1: the cover of dart backness. He became known as the

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Speaker 1: after Dark Bandit and was the state's most wanted man,

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Speaker 1: a suspect in more than two dozen armed robberies, outsmarting

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Speaker 1: police for years, becoming Australia's most wanted men. It began

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Speaker 1: to dawn that this was not one man, but two.

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Speaker 1: Twenty four robberies.

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Speaker 2: Later, all was revealed police had beat out foxed by

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Speaker 2: not one bandit, but two.

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Speaker 1: But what no one realized until the crime spree was

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Speaker 1: over the pair were identical twins.

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Speaker 3: Identical twins, Peter and Doug Morgan.

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Speaker 1: The spree ended badly, with a cop almost fatally shot,

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Speaker 1: and inevitably one twin gave up the other and they

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Speaker 1: both served long prison sentences.

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Speaker 3: I've been silent for forty years. There must be a

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Speaker 3: reason for that.

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Speaker 1: Doug Morgan turned his life around while in jail and

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Speaker 1: has kindly agreed to share his story with me. Welcome Doug.

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Speaker 3: How are you, Adam?

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Speaker 1: I'm very well. How do you reflect on those years

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Speaker 1: now your age seventy one?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was sitting with my grandchildren on the weekend

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Speaker 2: in a park, chatting about life, and I realized that

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Speaker 2: a lot of my life was wasted and the damage

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Speaker 2: I did to my family that still goes on, and

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Speaker 2: the damage I did to victims and their families. So

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Speaker 2: I look back and look at crime as a bad

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Speaker 2: evil and there's no winners. And that's why I do

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Speaker 2: a lot of work with young people, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: because I don't want other people to waste their lives.

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Speaker 2: I think I've learned a lot over the journey. I

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Speaker 2: think it's really changed my outlooks. And the story is

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Speaker 2: not really about me. I try to look at it

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Speaker 2: from outside it. I'm not the figure or the hero

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Speaker 2: or the villain. I try to look at it in

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Speaker 2: black and white and say, well, this is what happened.

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Speaker 2: And I always like to think about what can we

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Speaker 2: learn from today. People ask me if I'm religious. Did

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Speaker 2: I turn around because I was religious? No, I sat

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Speaker 2: in the cellon went I think I'm worth a lot

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Speaker 2: more than this to myself and others, and I just

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Speaker 2: made that decision. And what I think my philosophy would

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Speaker 2: be learning from that. I could come out and have

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Speaker 2: a successful life. But if you don't use your experiences

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Speaker 2: to help other people, those experiences have little value, which

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Speaker 2: means all those years in jail would have little value.

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Speaker 1: Because we often look to our role models in life,

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Speaker 1: often our fathers, and of course your dad Kay was

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Speaker 1: also a bank robber back in the nineteen forties. How

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Speaker 1: did that come about?

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Speaker 2: Well, I always try to look at what went wrong.

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Speaker 2: He was kicked out of the family because he didn't

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Speaker 2: get on very well with one of his older brothers

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Speaker 2: who was let's say, not manly, and he went and

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Speaker 2: lived with his grandparents. So he obviously what I think

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Speaker 2: with a lot of young people, if they become thrown

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Speaker 2: out of the unit, they look for something else, and

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Speaker 2: he became being a burglar. He stole a gun one

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Speaker 2: night out of a bank in Greensborough when he was

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Speaker 2: doing a burg trying to find the key to open

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Speaker 2: the safe and with a gun in his hand that

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Speaker 2: he found in that bank that night. He then about

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Speaker 2: a week later said well now I can be a

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Speaker 2: bank robber. I've got a gun, and he did so

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Speaker 2: and had the bigger stood out in Australia's history. And

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Speaker 2: I quite often chuckled to myself. They always talk about

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Speaker 2: the Ok Corral, and there were seventeen shots fired in

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Speaker 2: the American legendary Ok Correll and thirty second seventeen shots.

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Speaker 2: There was more shots fired backwards and force between my

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Speaker 2: father and two bank staff that had bigger guns than

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Speaker 2: he had than the Ok Corral. So he's a legend

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Speaker 2: in criminal statistics for that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, certainly it was quite a scene because he

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Speaker 1: goes into the bank in Elpham there and he jumps

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Speaker 1: in with his Browning pistol and says the gay and

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Speaker 1: the two tellers go, well, the game's on here to

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Speaker 1: they both had pistols.

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Speaker 3: And they had bigger pistols.

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Speaker 2: Now, before we go past that pistol, that was a

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Speaker 2: Browning twenty five, Like you just said, my brother's first bank.

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Speaker 2: When he left the bank, they accidentally put it Browning

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Speaker 2: twenty five in with the money. So now my brother

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Speaker 2: had a Browning twenty five. Now my brother's called out

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Speaker 2: a lucky charm when he's been talking to media. That

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Speaker 2: pistol that he took from a bank would be classified

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Speaker 2: as evidence. He carried that and ended up shooting a

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Speaker 2: copper with it two years later, So not a smart

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Speaker 2: move to carry evidence and then shoot somebody with it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, by the way, listeners, stay tuned for the relationship

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Speaker 1: between Peter and Doug. I think anyone who's been a

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Speaker 1: twin understands the rivalry between the two, but particularly when

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Speaker 1: you're robbing banks and tab agencies. You lost your dad

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Speaker 1: at forty one, Yes, what happened.

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Speaker 3: He was on the run again.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was a bank teller and the

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Speaker 2: AMZ and thirty dollars.

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Speaker 3: I was a bank teller.

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Speaker 1: You were a bank teller.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a very good bank teller too, because

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Speaker 2: I was very young, and he promoted me to be

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Speaker 2: a bank teller. And my dad said, one night, we're

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Speaker 2: going to go on the runn again. I've knocked off

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Speaker 2: some money from a real estate agency because he'd been

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Speaker 2: injured and couldn't work in the building trade, so he

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Speaker 2: was working. He'd put the deposit in his own bank account,

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Speaker 2: I think for a house anyway. So we're on the

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Speaker 2: run in Adelaide and Broken Hill building houses and he

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Speaker 2: has a massive heart attack, basically dies in my arms.

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Speaker 2: I'm eighteen, and it's like a horrific scene. I've never

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Speaker 2: heard anybody scream all whale as loud. I could never

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Speaker 2: get that out of my mind. And he passed away

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Speaker 2: right there and then. So that was the end of

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Speaker 2: as far as I was concerned. My dad was a villain,

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Speaker 2: but my dad was also a great father. When we

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Speaker 2: played sport, he would become the coach of that sport.

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Speaker 2: In a strange way, I idolized him. He was very

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Speaker 2: smart man, but the trouble is he would resort to

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Speaker 2: crime to prop up his businesses.

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Speaker 1: Well. He had a piece of advice for you and Peter.

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Speaker 1: He said, if you need to pursue a certain lifestyle,

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Speaker 1: it's perfectly okay to get the money however you need to.

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Speaker 2: I grew up with philosophy, as were Morgans, and you

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Speaker 2: do what you want to live how you want, and

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Speaker 2: that was basically it.

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Speaker 3: The other word of advice I never took was work alone.

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Speaker 1: Yes, work alone. That's a maxim that a lot of

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Speaker 1: crooks should follow, but they don't. Now, this was the

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Speaker 1: golden era of armed robberies in the seventies where the

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Speaker 1: counter jumpers as they were called, were idolized in the

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Speaker 1: criminal world, and there was some very big names who

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Speaker 1: were involved in that. You weren't a big name. You

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Speaker 1: and Peter were the guys s from nowhere, and this

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Speaker 1: was part of your advantage. How did you decide to

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Speaker 1: go from carpenters and builders son of a bank robber

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Speaker 1: to actual bank robbers? How did that happen?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: At thirteen, I was going along at night time when

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Speaker 2: my dad breaking his post office in New Zealand and

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Speaker 2: help him load saves in the back of cars and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. So I basically was a criminal at thirteen,

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Speaker 2: And when he was arrested in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: The next day.

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Speaker 2: We loaded safes into a car to get rid of

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Speaker 2: the evidence because there was many saves that have been

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Speaker 2: opened up in another house we had. So basically I

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Speaker 2: was a criminal at thirteen, because once he's not there,

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Speaker 2: I took over. But the thing is, my brother must

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Speaker 2: have had this bank robbery stuff in his brain. And

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Speaker 2: you've got to remember, you're totally right. Newspapers two three

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Speaker 2: times a week would have an article fifteen twenty thousand

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Speaker 2: taken by sometimes what they used to call the Blue

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Speaker 2: Boilersuit gang. And my brother used to say we could

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Speaker 2: do that, we could do that, and I always fob

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Speaker 2: him off and go yeah, yeah, whatever, And then he's

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Speaker 2: more persistent, bought some guns. And what happened was one Easter,

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Speaker 2: we were waiting on two checks from my builder, who

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Speaker 2: WO had never worked for before. It was quite a

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Speaker 2: large amount of money, two houses that we were owed,

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Speaker 2: and it didn't turn up for Easter. My brother was

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Speaker 2: shot of money. He says, I got to pull a

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Speaker 2: job before Easter. I got no cash. So that's how

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Speaker 2: it really started. So all his talk was put into

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Speaker 2: action in about three days and he picked a target,

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Speaker 2: and we went about getting a getaway car by taking

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Speaker 2: it from a car yard. He already had the guns,

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Speaker 2: so that's how we actually got into it. And then

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Speaker 2: three days after Easter the check for the two houses.

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Speaker 3: Turned up in a mail.

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Speaker 2: So those checks had turned up on the Wednesday, we

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be bank robbers or tab robbers.

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Speaker 1: The die was cast because you've had, let's call it

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Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with your brother over the years, but

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Speaker 1: you were so similar looking. In fact, when you look

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Speaker 1: at pictures of it yourself back in the day with Peter,

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Speaker 1: you even can't tell each other apart.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and it's only God or karma that's made

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Speaker 2: us look different and I look younger.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you go. That's a subtle dig. He's not

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Speaker 1: here to defend himself, but they'll may become.

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Speaker 3: Laywright mind in the saddle digs.

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Speaker 1: Different personality is a very different fact. When you were

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Speaker 1: doing jobs that people would be amazed because you were

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Speaker 1: doing jobs separate and together in different places, and they'd

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Speaker 1: be talking about people saying, well, he even had a

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Speaker 1: different mood. One was stern and aggressive, the other was

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Speaker 1: cheeky and like alaricm you're pointing to yourself. You're with Alarkim.

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Speaker 2: I would say so, because if you knew some of

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Speaker 2: the things I said to big tough gangsters in jail,

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Speaker 2: you know I don't have a sensible bone in my

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Speaker 2: body when it comes to the way I talk to people.

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Speaker 2: I usually talk has never got no respect. But then

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Speaker 2: I've worked with homeless people and mentored prisoners and that,

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Speaker 2: so obviously it's it's just my demeanor. But you're totally right.

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Speaker 2: My brother would have been more stern. He was carrying

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Speaker 2: a bigger gun. I was usually carrying an imitation pistol.

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Speaker 2: Being a bank seller, maybe I was more relaxed in

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Speaker 2: the style I was using. But you touched on jobs

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes apart. That was all got up so that

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Speaker 2: if you do one job, they surround the area with

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Speaker 2: their roadblocks or whatever. You do a second job just

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Speaker 2: outside the roadblocks. It causes chaos for them. So what

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Speaker 2: we wanted to do is cause chaos. So they'd lift

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Speaker 2: roadblocks in one area and then put the heat on

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Speaker 2: the other area, and they're not really certain what's going

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Speaker 2: on here. So we're taking in the upper hand. We're

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Speaker 2: planning what they're going to do.

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Speaker 1: And The reality is most people in their lives have

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Speaker 1: stolen something at some stage, so they understand the feeling.

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Speaker 1: I won't go into my theft of a costume jewelry

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Speaker 1: ring from David Jones in nineteen seventy one. That's another story.

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Speaker 1: But what's it like to march into a bank with

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Speaker 1: even an imitation? And you also had a sawn off

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Speaker 1: shotgun at times too, which was loaded.

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Speaker 3: Now never loaded in the bank, never loaded.

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Speaker 1: In the bank, important difference. But what's it like? Your

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Speaker 1: brother talked about the massive adrenaline dump that takes place.

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Speaker 2: I actually read that in an article that he was quoted,

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Speaker 2: and I actually sat there going wonder what that feels like,

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Speaker 2: because I'm very black and white. If you say to

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Speaker 2: me we're doing this, I go, okay, we're doing this,

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Speaker 2: just the same as you tell me we're going to

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Speaker 2: lift a heavy beam up in the building. Try to

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Speaker 2: go Okay, it looks pretty heavy, but we'll try and

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Speaker 2: do it. I've never really felt that. I was quite amazed.

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Speaker 2: He talked about that being the strongest drug in the

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Speaker 2: world and how we'd be high for ages, and I went, seriously,

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Speaker 2: I just don't get it.

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Speaker 1: Well, other armed robbers I've spoken to over the years

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Speaker 1: talk about the thrill not just of the job, but

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Speaker 1: the planning, the meticulous surveillance, working out what you're going

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Speaker 1: to do, getting away with it. It's a very long process.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I'll give you that, but that's the same as

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Speaker 2: even in the building trade.

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Speaker 3: When you're building a house.

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Speaker 2: You look at the plans, you decipher what the house

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Speaker 2: is going to look like, and then you said about

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Speaker 2: how to build that house. And I think in the

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Speaker 2: same way, it's the way I look upon our armed robberies.

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Speaker 2: You'd say, this town has got a good bank, it's

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Speaker 2: a good target, it's got the things we need that

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Speaker 2: you can't see into the bank, so people walking past

256
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Speaker 2: go and see the robbery going down. So you go

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Speaker 2: through these checklists and so you then you select a bank.

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Speaker 3: So it is like a job.

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Speaker 2: So all that planning is quite sort of interest or

260
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Speaker 2: keeping you involved. I'll tell you what nobody could ever

261
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Speaker 2: understand is when you're going to the bush and you're

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Speaker 2: carrying a four to ten shot gun with buckshot, and

263
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Speaker 2: police and helicopters are all over you, and they're carrying

264
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Speaker 2: twelve gay shotguns and thirty eights and forty fives and

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Speaker 2: they will shoot and kill you on the spot, and

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Speaker 2: you're carrying a gun that won't even didn't their skin

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Speaker 2: basically because it's buckshot for birds, it.

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Speaker 1: Will bounce off a thick jumper or some.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So that was I spent three days in the

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Speaker 2: bush after the Warburdon Bank and very cold and winter

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Speaker 2: up at the back of Warburton. Now you can't use

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Speaker 2: the torch because the helicopter might see the torch. So

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Speaker 2: it's really if you had to say some people enjoy

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Speaker 2: bush walking or camping or those things, I'm taking that

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Speaker 2: right to the limit.

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Speaker 1: Because themo was very clear you would do most of

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Speaker 1: your jobs in the winter months because the sun will

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Speaker 1: be down earlier and you'd hit these tab agencies and

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Speaker 1: banks later noon, so you could disappear under the cover

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Speaker 1: of darkness into the bush.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 2: What we used to do is work out a time.

283
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Speaker 2: We'd say, all right, we're a certain distance from Melbourne.

284
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Speaker 2: It'll take X amount of time for the helicopter to

285
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Speaker 2: get here. They only had one helicopter in those days,

286
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Speaker 2: so everything was planning around what they could do. We'd go, right,

287
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Speaker 2: they're going to take forty five minutes to get the

288
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Speaker 2: helicopter here. We must be undercover inside that forty five minutes.

289
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Speaker 2: That might mean you're well into the scrub where you

290
00:14:33,641 --> 00:14:36,081
Speaker 2: can't be found, or it's going to be hard. The

291
00:14:36,121 --> 00:14:38,601
Speaker 2: closer it is to darkness, obviously, the safer it is.

292
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Speaker 2: I'll give you an example, when you're a kid and

293
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Speaker 2: you're playing hiding. If you run out the front door

294
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Speaker 2: in daylight, they can see you running up the street.

295
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Speaker 2: You run outside at nighttime and you get behind one

296
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Speaker 2: lamp post and you are gone. And what I know,

297
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Speaker 2: I shouldn't talk like this, but the art to arm

298
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Speaker 2: robbery is doing the arm robbery them seeing you at

299
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Speaker 2: some point of time, but then there's a point of

300
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Speaker 2: time where you just vanish.

301
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Speaker 1: Right. We're not advocating a lift style as a robber

302
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Speaker 1: because it's changed a lot. You must walk into banks now,

303
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Speaker 1: and it'd be like Butch Cassidy walking into the bank

304
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Speaker 1: at the beginning of which casting and sinance Kidney. He goes,

305
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Speaker 1: what happened to the old bank? It was so beautiful

306
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Speaker 1: and the guard says people kept robbing it, And he says,

307
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Speaker 1: small price to pay for beauty. I mean, it's another

308
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Speaker 1: thing looking at banks today and you realize that a

309
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Speaker 1: lot of the security measures that are there today are

310
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Speaker 1: because of people like you.

311
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, they kept updating in the seventies and eighties. As

312
00:15:32,761 --> 00:15:35,681
Speaker 2: things go down, then you manipulated what you could do

313
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Speaker 2: back when the screens for us came in. Because of

314
00:15:38,721 --> 00:15:41,401
Speaker 2: my background as a bank teller, I would pick banks

315
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Speaker 2: that I knew the security was low.

316
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Speaker 3: I'd be able to tell when the alarms had gone off.

317
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Speaker 2: So my information was probably even better than my brothers

318
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Speaker 2: because we cased our own final casing of a bank.

319
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Speaker 2: But they had to keep improving things, and they've got

320
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Speaker 2: to the limit now that we're all out of business.

321
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Speaker 2: Except I'm a bit too old to jump counters anyway.

322
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Speaker 2: But that's the same as crime evolves. If you go

323
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Speaker 2: through the eras you used to rob saves out of factories,

324
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Speaker 2: then you do this, and you do that, and then

325
00:16:11,721 --> 00:16:14,721
Speaker 2: a period back you had kids knocking off people standing

326
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Speaker 2: at eight ms. Now you have home invasions. It's all

327
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Speaker 2: because if the banks weren't as protected, now those kids

328
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Speaker 2: might be robbing banks.

329
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's all changed. And when you look at what happened,

330
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Speaker 1: you and your brother started off partners in crime. But

331
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Speaker 1: the fundamental differences between you quickly began to assert themselves.

332
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Speaker 1: Tell us how this happened.

333
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Speaker 2: Well, he became an ego junkie to the robberies. He

334
00:16:47,081 --> 00:16:50,081
Speaker 2: also became an ego junkie to the media because he

335
00:16:50,161 --> 00:16:52,841
Speaker 2: had read the newspaper and they'd say something like, oh,

336
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Speaker 2: the after Bark band, it hasn't struck in three months.

337
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Speaker 3: You go, oh, show them.

338
00:16:57,281 --> 00:16:59,641
Speaker 2: He did one bank three times to show that he

339
00:16:59,641 --> 00:17:03,561
Speaker 2: could do getaways in three different directions. So I'll take

340
00:17:03,601 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 2: it to one very important part of my life. I

341
00:17:07,241 --> 00:17:09,001
Speaker 2: was after the warming bank. I was sitting under a

342
00:17:09,041 --> 00:17:11,840
Speaker 2: gum tree and I was counting thirty nine, nine hundred

343
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,081
Speaker 2: and something while the helicopter buzzed around it, and I went,

344
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Speaker 2: Jesus enough to buy two houses in North Danny Long.

345
00:17:18,001 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 2: And I thought about that for a minute, and then

346
00:17:19,801 --> 00:17:23,241
Speaker 2: I thought about my brother's ego. And that was when

347
00:17:23,241 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 2: I decided not to rob anymore banks, because what I

348
00:17:26,561 --> 00:17:30,640
Speaker 2: realized by looking at my brother, if I continued, I

349
00:17:30,761 --> 00:17:34,400
Speaker 2: was an ego junkie too, and I didn't like that thought.

350
00:17:34,761 --> 00:17:37,801
Speaker 2: It was supposed to be about money, and I'll say

351
00:17:37,961 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 2: right from the start, I was lured by the money.

352
00:17:40,441 --> 00:17:43,321
Speaker 2: Once we got into it, but to think that it

353
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 2: became part of your lifestyle or part of your ego,

354
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,960
Speaker 2: that's really bad.

355
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Speaker 3: And I opted out.

356
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,640
Speaker 2: And then we started having some very serious fistfights, even

357
00:17:53,681 --> 00:17:57,160
Speaker 2: guns drawn, because I wanted him to stop because he

358
00:17:57,201 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 2: would get his caught of killed, which is almost what

359
00:17:59,761 --> 00:18:01,160
Speaker 2: happened indeed.

360
00:18:01,201 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 1: And you were very competitive because that thirty nine thousand

361
00:18:03,521 --> 00:18:05,841
Speaker 1: dollars hall that you got was the biggest of all

362
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: your jobs. And Peter who fancied himself as the professional

363
00:18:09,961 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 1: and you as the dilettante who was just doing it

364
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,721
Speaker 1: for fun. Almost he said Beginner's luck.

365
00:18:15,201 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 2: Well, even when he got caught by the coppers, and

366
00:18:17,561 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 2: let's say involved a fair bit of our lives in

367
00:18:21,921 --> 00:18:26,161
Speaker 2: the questioning room, he even was telling them, I'm my brother,

368
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: was just Beginner's luck, and like I'm the main man,

369
00:18:28,921 --> 00:18:31,961
Speaker 2: I'm the after Dark Bandit. And he doesn't like Jeff

370
00:18:32,001 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 2: Wilkinson who nicknamed in the after Dark Bandit, but he

371
00:18:34,761 --> 00:18:37,361
Speaker 2: loves to be called it. And he's told press all

372
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 2: over the world that there's only one after Dark Bandit.

373
00:18:40,521 --> 00:18:43,680
Speaker 2: And my words to that is you can take it, brother,

374
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Speaker 2: because I'm Doug Morgan.

375
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,640
Speaker 1: There you go. And there was a moment which I

376
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Speaker 1: think you regret also where you did a lot off

377
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:55,481
Speaker 1: a warning shot with your buck shot. It bounced off

378
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: the pavement, I think, and it struck someone in the mouth.

379
00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:58,801
Speaker 3: Yeah.

380
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,521
Speaker 2: What happened was he kept following this night and yelled

381
00:19:01,561 --> 00:19:04,041
Speaker 2: out stop police, and I turned around to face him,

382
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 2: and my shotgun wasn't loaded, so I couldn't fire a

383
00:19:06,921 --> 00:19:09,801
Speaker 2: warning shot. I ducked into a lane way and leaned

384
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,801
Speaker 2: against the paling fence and had a breather because I

385
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,521
Speaker 2: was running pretty hard to keep in front of him.

386
00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 2: And I loaded the shotgun which had buckshot in, walked

387
00:19:16,921 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: back out onto the roadway and it was nighttime, so

388
00:19:18,961 --> 00:19:20,761
Speaker 2: we just under one lamp post I was under another

389
00:19:21,041 --> 00:19:22,921
Speaker 2: with the light on, and I said, if you don't

390
00:19:22,961 --> 00:19:25,841
Speaker 2: stop chasing me, i'll shoot you, and he said, we'll

391
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 2: go on your bastard, And I thought, this guy's pushing

392
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,561
Speaker 2: me to the limit here, so I aimed at him,

393
00:19:31,681 --> 00:19:34,481
Speaker 2: but then dropped the gun to the right and forward,

394
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 2: probably about five meters to one side and about fifteen

395
00:19:37,441 --> 00:19:40,281
Speaker 2: meters short. But the buck shot bounced on the bitchman.

396
00:19:40,321 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 2: One hit him in the chest and one hit him

397
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,761
Speaker 2: in the lip. And when I saw his head go down.

398
00:19:44,801 --> 00:19:46,801
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, what's happened because I know

399
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:47,801
Speaker 2: where I shot at.

400
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:49,440
Speaker 3: In the newspapers they said I.

401
00:19:49,441 --> 00:19:51,201
Speaker 2: Shot a man, and I believe that till the day

402
00:19:51,201 --> 00:19:53,521
Speaker 2: I got caught that I'd actually hit him. One hit

403
00:19:53,561 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 2: his lip and didn't penetrate the lip. But what happened

404
00:19:56,201 --> 00:20:00,321
Speaker 2: after that is incredible. That was a talkey I used

405
00:20:00,321 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 2: to travel through the paddocks of that.

406
00:20:02,561 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 3: It took me hours and hours to get back to Geelong.

407
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:07,481
Speaker 2: When I get back to Geelong, my brother's heard that's

408
00:20:07,521 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: on the radio, somebody's been shot. So he lines me

409
00:20:10,961 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 2: up with his gun while he was going to murder

410
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,761
Speaker 2: you a car park and he's going to shoot me

411
00:20:16,561 --> 00:20:20,561
Speaker 2: because I've broken the rules of not shooting. So he,

412
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 2: being the boss, was going to punish me by shooting

413
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 2: me for firing a warning shot. And even now I think,

414
00:20:27,481 --> 00:20:30,481
Speaker 2: so I can't fire a warning shot, but he can

415
00:20:30,521 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 2: shoot me.

416
00:20:32,001 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 3: So that shows the sort of partnership we had.

417
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: By this time, the police are getting very very interested

418
00:20:37,481 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 1: in you, and you are remembered by the Task Force

419
00:20:39,921 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 1: Operation rim Fire. All the cops are looking for you.

420
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,721
Speaker 1: What's that like when you're the state's most wanted man

421
00:20:47,761 --> 00:20:48,561
Speaker 1: and there's two of you.

422
00:20:49,441 --> 00:20:51,921
Speaker 2: Well, you don't sleep. I couldn't sleep at the farm

423
00:20:51,921 --> 00:20:54,441
Speaker 2: because I had a long driveway, but I also had

424
00:20:54,721 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 2: a bend in the road right at my driveway, so

425
00:20:56,721 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 2: every car or truck going from Foster at nighttime to

426
00:20:59,801 --> 00:21:03,401
Speaker 2: Toura would slow down on my bend. So I ended

427
00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 2: up basically leaving home and ruined my marriage, which I

428
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,881
Speaker 2: really regret because that affected my children not so much.

429
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,681
Speaker 2: You can always get another wife, but you can't get

430
00:21:11,721 --> 00:21:12,561
Speaker 2: new children.

431
00:21:12,801 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: Well you can, but they're expensive, so you stick with

432
00:21:14,681 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 1: the ones you've got.

433
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,481
Speaker 2: And as I sat on the weekend, I spent time

434
00:21:17,521 --> 00:21:22,441
Speaker 2: with my grandchildren. So we've rebuilt our lives and our relationships.

435
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,401
Speaker 2: But what it's like is you know your life is ruined.

436
00:21:27,761 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 2: You know you can't go on a building site and

437
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,001
Speaker 2: you can't concentrate. So crime it's sort of a bit

438
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 2: like Heroin in a way, I suppose where it can

439
00:21:36,281 --> 00:21:40,481
Speaker 2: ruin your life and it totally takes over everything. And

440
00:21:40,481 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 2: that's why my theme now, even sitting here, all I

441
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 2: can think about is what a wasted time crime is,

442
00:21:48,521 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 2: and that what I believe is is putting it up

443
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,801
Speaker 2: there and telling people what the consequences are and if

444
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,881
Speaker 2: they want to rob banks or do drugs, I can't

445
00:21:56,921 --> 00:21:59,801
Speaker 2: stop them, but I'd like people to know the consequences.

446
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,801
Speaker 1: You knew the consequences because by the way, you and

447
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: Peter both married women called Pamela, which I think is cute,

448
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,281
Speaker 1: and neither one told their wives what they were up to,

449
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,161
Speaker 1: kept it away from your families.

450
00:22:12,001 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: Well, people asked me why my wife didn't know, and

451
00:22:16,041 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 2: I'll be totally honest, I thought, well, what would happen

452
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: if we get divorced in five years and she knew

453
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 2: I was a bank robber?

454
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: You know?

455
00:22:23,561 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: So I really believe I grew up as a ridgie

456
00:22:26,201 --> 00:22:30,201
Speaker 2: ditch crook with my father that you shouldn't be involving other.

457
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,201
Speaker 1: People because one day she'll give you up.

458
00:22:32,721 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 3: Yes, well, if you're a crook.

459
00:22:34,681 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 2: It's like I even see movies and they talk about

460
00:22:37,521 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: you've got to be ready to move in fifteen minutes

461
00:22:39,521 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 2: or something like that. I am a total believer. If

462
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 2: you're going to be a crook, you don't have a

463
00:22:43,441 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: real life as such.

464
00:22:45,801 --> 00:22:50,321
Speaker 1: This could never go on forever, and the bigger the jobs.

465
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,521
Speaker 1: Peter was much more ambitious than you. There were times

466
00:22:52,521 --> 00:22:55,721
Speaker 1: when you actually pulled out of jobs because you could

467
00:22:55,761 --> 00:22:57,801
Speaker 1: possibly see what's going to happen in the future. What

468
00:22:57,961 --> 00:22:58,681
Speaker 1: was going on there.

469
00:22:58,761 --> 00:23:01,321
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not a natural arm robber. It's not my

470
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 2: personality to pointing guns of people. If I pick a

471
00:23:04,201 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 2: gun up, all I'm but is it could go off

472
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: by mistake. And I've been shot at by a screw

473
00:23:10,721 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 2: when I was trying to escape, and one of my

474
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 2: thoughts was, I hope he is a good shot, so

475
00:23:14,961 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 2: he either aims to miss or aims to kill. And

476
00:23:19,521 --> 00:23:21,561
Speaker 2: I've had Peter's gun at the back of my head once.

477
00:23:22,001 --> 00:23:24,321
Speaker 2: So I was never really wanting to be an armor robber.

478
00:23:24,681 --> 00:23:28,120
Speaker 2: I started off as my brother's assistant. He kept pushing

479
00:23:28,201 --> 00:23:30,961
Speaker 2: him and pushing me for me to do the front job,

480
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 2: be the front man, because he said that's what I

481
00:23:33,801 --> 00:23:37,241
Speaker 2: had to do. It's almost like saying, you're raiding the pantry,

482
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,281
Speaker 2: you've got to eat one of the biscuits. So mom

483
00:23:39,321 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: can't tell me, I feel she'll have to tell us

484
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,121
Speaker 2: both off. Look, I'm a stand up guy, and look,

485
00:23:44,281 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 2: my belief about armed robbers is their bloody laborers. If

486
00:23:48,241 --> 00:23:50,281
Speaker 2: they could do anything decent, they wouldn't have to carry

487
00:23:50,281 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: a gun.

488
00:23:51,321 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: That's right. And in the end it did bring you

489
00:23:53,721 --> 00:23:57,241
Speaker 1: to grief because as much as Peter disliked what you

490
00:23:57,281 --> 00:24:01,241
Speaker 1: did faring on that policeman, he also did the same thing.

491
00:24:01,241 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: And that was the beginning of then what happened there.

492
00:24:03,041 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: Well, see when i I'm firing, I'm actually still in

493
00:24:06,681 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 2: control because I'm twenty yards away. My brother three times

494
00:24:10,961 --> 00:24:13,881
Speaker 2: pushed the pistol that was evidence from the first job

495
00:24:14,241 --> 00:24:17,521
Speaker 2: into the stomach of three different coppers. One on one

496
00:24:17,561 --> 00:24:19,561
Speaker 2: bank shob There was a copper in his car, I think,

497
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 2: and my brother got.

498
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 3: Him out of the car.

499
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: Then on the day when he shot Kosh, he's let

500
00:24:24,801 --> 00:24:27,361
Speaker 2: Kosh get right up to him, and when they started struggling,

501
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,161
Speaker 2: he shoved the gun into his stomach. Gun went off.

502
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 2: Nobody knows except for remember brother, if it meant to

503
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,681
Speaker 2: go off. Then the next day he shoved the same

504
00:24:36,721 --> 00:24:41,921
Speaker 2: gun into another policeman's stomach who was unarmed. Look, if

505
00:24:41,921 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 2: you ask me what's the gun for, it's for shooting

506
00:24:44,681 --> 00:24:47,681
Speaker 2: rabbits and warning people. Now, you don't have to stick

507
00:24:47,721 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: it right into somebody if you're going to do a

508
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,041
Speaker 2: warning shot in the lane way. The copper was unarmed,

509
00:24:52,041 --> 00:24:54,001
Speaker 2: Peter could see was unarmed. He didn't have a belt

510
00:24:54,041 --> 00:24:56,241
Speaker 2: on with a gun. Peter should have pulled his gun

511
00:24:56,281 --> 00:24:58,241
Speaker 2: fifteen feet before the copper got to him.

512
00:24:58,561 --> 00:25:00,281
Speaker 3: Then Peter would have left the area.

513
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,241
Speaker 1: But the whole thing stemmed from over confidence because there

514
00:25:03,241 --> 00:25:06,761
Speaker 1: he was in Heathcoat, being the same bank for a

515
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,801
Speaker 1: third time, and he's seeing the policeman Kosh lapping in

516
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: the block as certain ittable. He thinks, in the interim,

517
00:25:14,201 --> 00:25:16,041
Speaker 1: I'll dive in and rob the bank for the third time.

518
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,001
Speaker 1: By the way, take the orange dats in that's owned

519
00:25:18,001 --> 00:25:19,521
Speaker 1: by one of the tellers as they get away cup

520
00:25:19,561 --> 00:25:21,961
Speaker 1: for the second time, and she must have been horrified.

521
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,481
Speaker 1: But Kosh turns up earlier than expected, and a struggling.

522
00:25:26,521 --> 00:25:28,881
Speaker 2: Kosh was doing laps and he just four point thirty

523
00:25:28,961 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: days last lap and he was going to go back

524
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:32,241
Speaker 2: to the station and finish.

525
00:25:32,521 --> 00:25:33,961
Speaker 3: He decided to do one more lap.

526
00:25:34,201 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: But I'll give you a example of my brother's ego

527
00:25:37,321 --> 00:25:40,041
Speaker 2: taking over, and he's over confidence. He was watching a

528
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,281
Speaker 2: tab one night and he was trying to rob it

529
00:25:42,761 --> 00:25:44,561
Speaker 2: and the copper was doing laps. We were so hot,

530
00:25:44,561 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 2: they were doing laps all the time. My brother waited

531
00:25:47,441 --> 00:25:49,761
Speaker 2: to the copper ran out of petrol and went to

532
00:25:49,801 --> 00:25:52,041
Speaker 2: the local petrol station. As soon as he was filling

533
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,161
Speaker 2: his car up, my brother the tab. That's how hot

534
00:25:55,281 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 2: he was working.

535
00:25:56,721 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 3: Well.

536
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 2: The copper obviously couldn't chase him because he was filling

537
00:25:59,481 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: his car, but Kosh could come back. And that's what

538
00:26:02,281 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: got cost shot because my brother let him get too close.

539
00:26:06,561 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: When Kosh did confront him, and even the mask from

540
00:26:10,001 --> 00:26:13,561
Speaker 2: my brother wore brought him undone. Once you pull a

541
00:26:13,561 --> 00:26:16,561
Speaker 2: full headed mask over your head, you can't walk away.

542
00:26:17,001 --> 00:26:19,561
Speaker 2: If you're sitting in the street, you're done. And even

543
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,881
Speaker 2: for me, I wouldn't wear that. I used to wear

544
00:26:21,921 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: a sailing jacket and I'd wander around Warbot in the

545
00:26:25,001 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: winter and everybody else had sailing jackets and hoodies on.

546
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,041
Speaker 2: And at the last minute, as I'm about to walk

547
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,441
Speaker 2: into the bank, I'd pull a scarf up like a cowboy,

548
00:26:33,961 --> 00:26:38,281
Speaker 2: because I knew if you're wearing one of those masks

549
00:26:38,321 --> 00:26:40,801
Speaker 2: from the vic market or wherever, you can't walk down

550
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:41,281
Speaker 2: a street.

551
00:26:42,241 --> 00:26:45,641
Speaker 1: Your relationship with Peter was already very fractured. I think

552
00:26:45,721 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: just prior to this time, you've gone to the races

553
00:26:48,241 --> 00:26:51,321
Speaker 1: together in his hot car, he's got the boot full

554
00:26:51,321 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: of guns and money and so forth. He looks around,

555
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: you disappear, goes to the car park, finds his hot

556
00:26:56,921 --> 00:27:00,041
Speaker 1: car is gone, and you are as well. Gets home

557
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,241
Speaker 1: to find the vehicle is there with the doors open,

558
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,561
Speaker 1: the briefcase full of money, and the guns are gone.

559
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 2: What happened, Well, I'd mentioned earlier how he was pushing

560
00:27:08,241 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: me to do more jobs, and what he started saying.

561
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,241
Speaker 2: We had an agreement right at the start the person

562
00:27:13,281 --> 00:27:15,281
Speaker 2: who was the assistant gets one third of the take

563
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,881
Speaker 2: and the person in the arm, Robbie, gets two thirds.

564
00:27:18,521 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: He started saying, you've only done a third of the

565
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,161
Speaker 2: jobs I've done.

566
00:27:22,321 --> 00:27:24,761
Speaker 3: You're a parasite. You're living off my earnings.

567
00:27:25,241 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: And he was really giving it to me because for

568
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: the first time in his life he was the master

569
00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 2: of the twins. In his opinion, what he was was

570
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 2: an ego out of control. So he kept pushing me

571
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: and pushing me. And if you start killing me a parasite,

572
00:27:39,961 --> 00:27:42,001
Speaker 2: I'm going to get my back up. And when you're

573
00:27:42,041 --> 00:27:44,321
Speaker 2: looking in the man's only calls you a parasite, you

574
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,561
Speaker 2: either hit him or you do something to stop him

575
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,521
Speaker 2: doing it. So I thought, all right, I'll do a job.

576
00:27:49,961 --> 00:27:52,721
Speaker 2: I'm going to take your car for a drive, get

577
00:27:52,721 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: another set of keyscut while I'm driving it, and next

578
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,801
Speaker 2: time we go to the races, I'm going to take

579
00:27:58,001 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 2: whatever's in the boot and show you that I'm not

580
00:28:00,281 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: scared of you and you might not be the master

581
00:28:03,761 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 2: you think you are. And then after that, when he

582
00:28:06,481 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: was looking for me, I've rung him and I've said

583
00:28:09,681 --> 00:28:11,561
Speaker 2: I'll have a meeting with you. I'll give you back

584
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,281
Speaker 2: your prize position, a little gun, and I'll give you

585
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:16,961
Speaker 2: back half the money. I met him, I wasn't armed.

586
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,721
Speaker 2: I gave him his gun, which proved I wasn't scared

587
00:28:19,761 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: of him, and I gave him half the money.

588
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 3: And so there you go. He never called me a

589
00:28:23,961 --> 00:28:25,041
Speaker 3: parasite again.

590
00:28:25,441 --> 00:28:28,041
Speaker 1: Called the other names though, we'll get to those. But

591
00:28:29,001 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: after the shooting of Kosh, the end was always going

592
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: to come quickly. How did it come?

593
00:28:34,201 --> 00:28:34,521
Speaker 3: Well?

594
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 2: The next day? We had everything planned so well. He

595
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,521
Speaker 2: got out of the search area, got past the roadblocks,

596
00:28:40,041 --> 00:28:42,361
Speaker 2: and he was supposed to stay out of church and

597
00:28:42,801 --> 00:28:46,281
Speaker 2: sleep that night under the church. He's never actually spent

598
00:28:46,361 --> 00:28:49,961
Speaker 2: any nights in the scrub. He's always got out that night.

599
00:28:50,561 --> 00:28:52,361
Speaker 2: He stayed the first night so it was too cold.

600
00:28:52,401 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: This is what he told people in the media. And

601
00:28:54,561 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: then he hit hiked into Binioh. I questioned all this.

602
00:28:59,521 --> 00:29:03,361
Speaker 2: I asked him once, why did you leave our safe

603
00:29:03,401 --> 00:29:06,921
Speaker 2: spot where you were and you'd eating the roadblocks? He said,

604
00:29:07,001 --> 00:29:08,881
Speaker 2: I shot one of them. They're going to kill me.

605
00:29:09,361 --> 00:29:11,281
Speaker 2: And I just looked at him, laughed and said, well

606
00:29:11,321 --> 00:29:12,161
Speaker 2: you started it.

607
00:29:13,121 --> 00:29:13,681
Speaker 3: And if he.

608
00:29:13,841 --> 00:29:16,321
Speaker 1: Didn't know, you started though, to be fair, dug didn't

609
00:29:16,361 --> 00:29:17,081
Speaker 1: you father?

610
00:29:17,121 --> 00:29:17,361
Speaker 3: First?

611
00:29:17,401 --> 00:29:19,801
Speaker 2: Well he shot somebody. Once you shoot a copper, they're

612
00:29:19,801 --> 00:29:22,721
Speaker 2: going to aim you up. So don't act like a pussy.

613
00:29:23,081 --> 00:29:25,161
Speaker 2: If you want to do stuff like that, you men

614
00:29:25,281 --> 00:29:27,521
Speaker 2: are And if he had a state at that point,

615
00:29:28,121 --> 00:29:30,401
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have got it getarrested because I couldn't get

616
00:29:30,441 --> 00:29:32,041
Speaker 2: in that morning. I went to roadblocks and had to

617
00:29:32,081 --> 00:29:34,081
Speaker 2: turn around, so I couldn't get him out of the

618
00:29:34,161 --> 00:29:37,641
Speaker 2: area the next morning, which was my deal. So everying

619
00:29:37,761 --> 00:29:40,361
Speaker 2: was planned twenty four hour later, I'll come and get

620
00:29:40,401 --> 00:29:42,761
Speaker 2: you if it's still too hot twenty four hours.

621
00:29:43,161 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: But he was running scared. Now what I question about

622
00:29:46,481 --> 00:29:47,081
Speaker 3: his logic.

623
00:29:47,721 --> 00:29:52,321
Speaker 2: He hitchhikes on the main road from Heathcirt to Benigo Benn.

624
00:29:52,321 --> 00:29:53,921
Speaker 2: He goes the biggest town, so the police will be

625
00:29:54,001 --> 00:29:55,801
Speaker 2: traveling that road, So he's hits you going on the

626
00:29:55,881 --> 00:29:59,001
Speaker 2: road the police will be traveling on what I don't like,

627
00:29:59,361 --> 00:30:01,641
Speaker 2: and I will never agree to. He gets into a

628
00:30:01,681 --> 00:30:04,801
Speaker 2: car with a woman and child. Now what say they

629
00:30:04,841 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: get Paul eddaver because there's another roadblock further up that

630
00:30:08,041 --> 00:30:11,121
Speaker 2: he doesn't know about. Does he use the woman and

631
00:30:11,161 --> 00:30:14,721
Speaker 2: the child as a hostage? Do they get shot in crossfire?

632
00:30:15,361 --> 00:30:18,161
Speaker 2: These are the things that broke our relationship totally up

633
00:30:18,361 --> 00:30:22,601
Speaker 2: because he did things that were far beyond what we'd

634
00:30:22,641 --> 00:30:25,321
Speaker 2: planned or what morally we could accept.

635
00:30:26,001 --> 00:30:28,001
Speaker 3: So that rift is still there.

636
00:30:28,041 --> 00:30:30,801
Speaker 2: I cannot cope with those things because you put the

637
00:30:30,801 --> 00:30:34,881
Speaker 2: public in danger because you were too lazy to carry

638
00:30:34,921 --> 00:30:36,281
Speaker 2: out our getaway plan.

639
00:30:37,281 --> 00:30:40,761
Speaker 1: Peter was apprehended after a struggle with another police officer,

640
00:30:41,241 --> 00:30:44,681
Speaker 1: who people say he tried to shoot. It was only

641
00:30:44,761 --> 00:30:49,841
Speaker 1: then that they realized there wasn't one bandit, there was

642
00:30:49,921 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: two and they're identical twins. How did they learn about

643
00:30:54,561 --> 00:30:55,401
Speaker 1: your involvement?

644
00:30:55,681 --> 00:30:56,361
Speaker 3: All false?

645
00:30:56,841 --> 00:31:00,001
Speaker 2: What the media thinks and what people have been saying

646
00:31:00,081 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: is they found a photo of me in my brother's

647
00:31:02,001 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: house when they searched his house. Peter never had that

648
00:31:04,761 --> 00:31:07,561
Speaker 2: photo on his mantelpiece. I've never had a photo of

649
00:31:07,641 --> 00:31:09,961
Speaker 2: Peter on my mantel piece. They must have went to

650
00:31:10,081 --> 00:31:12,961
Speaker 2: draws to find that. Why were they looking in draws

651
00:31:13,041 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: for photos when they've got their man. Now I've actually

652
00:31:16,721 --> 00:31:19,321
Speaker 2: asked Peter why he gave me up. He told me

653
00:31:19,321 --> 00:31:21,281
Speaker 2: he was going to give me up the last time.

654
00:31:21,321 --> 00:31:22,881
Speaker 2: We had a fistfight and he put a gun at

655
00:31:22,881 --> 00:31:25,121
Speaker 2: the back of my head and he said, if I

656
00:31:25,201 --> 00:31:28,921
Speaker 2: get done, you're going And I said, your kid naun't you.

657
00:31:29,681 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: When I was sitting on the run after he got caught,

658
00:31:33,321 --> 00:31:35,001
Speaker 2: I didn't believe he would give me up because I

659
00:31:35,041 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: thought he was just giving me a hard time. I

660
00:31:38,561 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: asked him once, why did you give me up? And

661
00:31:40,561 --> 00:31:43,121
Speaker 2: this is what he told me, many many many years ago,

662
00:31:43,241 --> 00:31:43,801
Speaker 2: not now with.

663
00:31:43,761 --> 00:31:45,561
Speaker 3: A media hype. He said.

664
00:31:46,641 --> 00:31:49,481
Speaker 2: I tried to tell them shooting Kosh was an accident.

665
00:31:50,001 --> 00:31:53,201
Speaker 2: Then they said, what about the shooting at Torquay which

666
00:31:53,281 --> 00:31:56,561
Speaker 2: was yours which was mine? He said, oh, I can't

667
00:31:56,641 --> 00:31:59,561
Speaker 2: have two accidental shootings, can I judge is not going

668
00:31:59,641 --> 00:32:01,001
Speaker 2: to wear that one now.

669
00:32:01,041 --> 00:32:02,801
Speaker 3: Peter didn't know that the first one.

670
00:32:02,881 --> 00:32:05,841
Speaker 2: The bloke wasn't hurt, so they use that against him

671
00:32:05,881 --> 00:32:09,441
Speaker 2: to scare him, and by scaring him were two shootings.

672
00:32:09,801 --> 00:32:12,281
Speaker 1: He gave me up, and I'm going to say that

673
00:32:12,801 --> 00:32:17,401
Speaker 1: him giving you up saved at least one of your lives,

674
00:32:17,441 --> 00:32:20,161
Speaker 1: because you fellas were headed for disaster. Like you said,

675
00:32:20,201 --> 00:32:22,801
Speaker 1: when you shoot a cop, they all come after you,

676
00:32:23,321 --> 00:32:25,601
Speaker 1: and they don't mind if you're carried out in a

677
00:32:25,601 --> 00:32:26,801
Speaker 1: body bag at the end of the day.

678
00:32:27,041 --> 00:32:27,721
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

679
00:32:27,961 --> 00:32:30,681
Speaker 2: What I do know is that if he hadn't given

680
00:32:30,721 --> 00:32:33,281
Speaker 2: me up and they found out I was involved, I

681
00:32:33,321 --> 00:32:37,361
Speaker 2: would be marked. What I also know through what they

682
00:32:37,441 --> 00:32:39,801
Speaker 2: learned from him. I won't say it was him, but

683
00:32:39,921 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: some people were asked, what will Doug do now that

684
00:32:42,201 --> 00:32:44,321
Speaker 2: you've got his brother and your brother's on the run.

685
00:32:44,881 --> 00:32:47,161
Speaker 2: They wanted to know which banks I would hit next.

686
00:32:48,001 --> 00:32:50,001
Speaker 2: They might have got information to know which banks I

687
00:32:50,001 --> 00:32:52,881
Speaker 2: would hit to raise money to get out of Australia,

688
00:32:53,001 --> 00:32:56,161
Speaker 2: and the word was that if I walked into one

689
00:32:56,161 --> 00:32:58,641
Speaker 2: of those banks, I was dead. It's as simple as that.

690
00:32:58,881 --> 00:33:02,321
Speaker 2: It got pretty heavy. And what happens is the police

691
00:33:02,441 --> 00:33:04,441
Speaker 2: know how to work people. They're good at their job.

692
00:33:04,481 --> 00:33:07,161
Speaker 2: When they get you in a room and they'll use

693
00:33:07,201 --> 00:33:09,921
Speaker 2: a lot of pressure. My brothers talked about when they

694
00:33:09,921 --> 00:33:11,921
Speaker 2: had him in the helicopter that they threatened to throw

695
00:33:11,961 --> 00:33:14,481
Speaker 2: him out of the helicopter. He's talked about when he's

696
00:33:14,521 --> 00:33:17,521
Speaker 2: been questioned at how petrol in the room, All sorts

697
00:33:17,521 --> 00:33:21,081
Speaker 2: of little tricks that they play, and anybody that knows,

698
00:33:21,081 --> 00:33:22,961
Speaker 2: and like, there's old stories where they used to hang

699
00:33:23,001 --> 00:33:26,081
Speaker 2: people out of the Russell Street windows, and I've actually

700
00:33:26,161 --> 00:33:28,361
Speaker 2: asked people about it, and I actually believe it's true

701
00:33:29,041 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: that there was a particular copper that used to dangle

702
00:33:31,521 --> 00:33:35,321
Speaker 2: people out of a window and unless you started talking,

703
00:33:36,321 --> 00:33:39,761
Speaker 2: but they never dropped anybody, So everybody used to talk obviously.

704
00:33:40,081 --> 00:33:41,641
Speaker 1: That's right. I think there's more than one that used

705
00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:44,081
Speaker 1: to do similar tactics. Actually, but then again, it was

706
00:33:44,161 --> 00:33:47,041
Speaker 1: a war back then, and you talk to the In fact,

707
00:33:47,081 --> 00:33:48,721
Speaker 1: I know a bank teller who has robbed a couple

708
00:33:48,761 --> 00:33:52,361
Speaker 1: of times in the early eighties and developed terrible post

709
00:33:52,401 --> 00:33:55,521
Speaker 1: traumatic stress from having guns poked in his face twice.

710
00:33:55,841 --> 00:34:01,001
Speaker 1: So these were traumatic, big headline crimes. And then you

711
00:34:01,121 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: top it off by having a cop get shot in

712
00:34:03,321 --> 00:34:06,401
Speaker 1: one of these. Are they going to get a light sentence?

713
00:34:06,441 --> 00:34:08,521
Speaker 1: The pair of you? What happened when you're front of

714
00:34:08,521 --> 00:34:09,841
Speaker 1: the magistrate or the judge.

715
00:34:10,361 --> 00:34:14,441
Speaker 2: Well, it's actually very interesting what happens with the legal system,

716
00:34:14,601 --> 00:34:17,121
Speaker 2: and it should be shown in educational sorts of things.

717
00:34:17,801 --> 00:34:19,921
Speaker 2: Coppers make a deal with me. I won't sign any

718
00:34:19,961 --> 00:34:23,521
Speaker 2: statements that they make their statements for me off my

719
00:34:23,521 --> 00:34:26,681
Speaker 2: brother's statements, and I refuse to sign. I would sit

720
00:34:26,681 --> 00:34:28,841
Speaker 2: there all day and they'd make statements. How that sounded,

721
00:34:28,801 --> 00:34:32,001
Speaker 2: I go whatever. Every statement of mine that was made

722
00:34:32,041 --> 00:34:34,521
Speaker 2: by a different copper has different.

723
00:34:34,201 --> 00:34:36,241
Speaker 3: Wording because it wasn't my words.

724
00:34:37,001 --> 00:34:39,081
Speaker 2: After about ten days, I said, do you give me

725
00:34:39,161 --> 00:34:43,321
Speaker 2: back money cars et cetera, et cetera. I'll sign, all right,

726
00:34:43,681 --> 00:34:46,401
Speaker 2: but I want to deal. They said, all right, we'll

727
00:34:46,401 --> 00:34:48,881
Speaker 2: give you a fifteen with a twelve. And people don't

728
00:34:48,921 --> 00:34:50,921
Speaker 2: know this is what really goes on. We'll give you

729
00:34:50,961 --> 00:34:53,081
Speaker 2: a fifteen with a twelve. You're happy, Hell, I'm happy.

730
00:34:53,081 --> 00:34:54,961
Speaker 2: I'll sign right now.

731
00:34:55,081 --> 00:34:57,241
Speaker 1: That's a fifteen year head sentence with twelve on the

732
00:34:57,241 --> 00:34:58,401
Speaker 1: bottom is a minimum.

733
00:34:58,561 --> 00:35:00,321
Speaker 2: Right, So they say to me, this is what's going

734
00:35:00,321 --> 00:35:01,721
Speaker 2: to get I gave a court and I get a

735
00:35:01,761 --> 00:35:04,601
Speaker 2: fifteen with a twelve. Copper's got me the fifteen with

736
00:35:04,641 --> 00:35:06,881
Speaker 2: it twelve. What did Peter get he got about a

737
00:35:06,961 --> 00:35:09,841
Speaker 2: seventeen worth of twelve sting. He got a little bit

738
00:35:09,921 --> 00:35:11,721
Speaker 2: more for all the things and shooting a copper and

739
00:35:11,721 --> 00:35:13,041
Speaker 2: all this sort of stuff, right.

740
00:35:12,921 --> 00:35:14,601
Speaker 1: And he gave you up and didn't get any discount

741
00:35:14,641 --> 00:35:14,881
Speaker 1: for that.

742
00:35:15,161 --> 00:35:16,681
Speaker 2: Well, he probably should have got a lot more, and

743
00:35:16,721 --> 00:35:17,881
Speaker 2: he got a discount maybe.

744
00:35:18,121 --> 00:35:18,441
Speaker 3: Now.

745
00:35:18,841 --> 00:35:21,641
Speaker 2: My mother comes in to see me at Penridge and

746
00:35:21,681 --> 00:35:24,121
Speaker 2: she says, you know, you can get a smaller sentence

747
00:35:24,161 --> 00:35:26,521
Speaker 2: if you work with the arm robbers and give them

748
00:35:26,561 --> 00:35:27,001
Speaker 2: some money.

749
00:35:27,601 --> 00:35:31,241
Speaker 3: Now, my mother's never lied to me in my life.

750
00:35:31,281 --> 00:35:33,481
Speaker 2: And I looked her and said, I wouldn't give a

751
00:35:33,521 --> 00:35:36,601
Speaker 2: cent to corrupt police. I don't know if it was

752
00:35:36,641 --> 00:35:38,761
Speaker 2: true or not. That's what my mother said. And I

753
00:35:38,801 --> 00:35:41,201
Speaker 2: have no doubt my mother was telling me the truth.

754
00:35:41,521 --> 00:35:44,161
Speaker 2: A lot of corruption and police forces all over the world.

755
00:35:44,281 --> 00:35:45,801
Speaker 2: Why should Melbourne be any different.

756
00:35:46,121 --> 00:35:46,321
Speaker 3: Now?

757
00:35:46,641 --> 00:35:49,121
Speaker 2: The thing is, they give me a fifteen or twelve,

758
00:35:49,281 --> 00:35:52,601
Speaker 2: they're good for the deal. Jeff Wilkinson and Jeff Is

759
00:35:52,601 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: admitted to this former Herold Sam Journo as well. He's

760
00:35:56,041 --> 00:35:58,841
Speaker 2: having a beer with all the top cops one night

761
00:35:59,281 --> 00:36:01,601
Speaker 2: and they decided that Dougie Morgan should get a bit

762
00:36:01,641 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: of extra time because he didn't get punished enough. While

763
00:36:04,481 --> 00:36:08,801
Speaker 2: they're having a before the Crown's time of appeal runs out,

764
00:36:09,121 --> 00:36:12,801
Speaker 2: Jeff Wilkins wrote an article and he admits he deliberately

765
00:36:12,841 --> 00:36:15,921
Speaker 2: sat forward to get me a longer sentence. He writes

766
00:36:15,961 --> 00:36:19,521
Speaker 2: an article that the public is outcry of my small

767
00:36:19,561 --> 00:36:22,241
Speaker 2: twelve year sentence and get out in eight years. They

768
00:36:22,281 --> 00:36:25,281
Speaker 2: started carrying on in the media about you shouldn't get remission,

769
00:36:25,281 --> 00:36:27,281
Speaker 2: you shouldn't get this. Well, everybody else gets it, why

770
00:36:27,321 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: shouldn't I get it. What happens is the Crown see

771
00:36:32,001 --> 00:36:35,441
Speaker 2: all these articles, they appeal and they give me a

772
00:36:35,481 --> 00:36:37,681
Speaker 2: twenty over seventeen. So now I'm going to do twelve

773
00:36:37,761 --> 00:36:41,561
Speaker 2: years roughly. Now, I asked Jeff when I got out

774
00:36:41,601 --> 00:36:44,681
Speaker 2: of jail, Hey, Jeff, so what do you do. Do

775
00:36:44,761 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: you do a public survey? No, we were just having

776
00:36:48,481 --> 00:36:50,961
Speaker 2: a drink. We decided you should get more time. So

777
00:36:51,001 --> 00:36:52,841
Speaker 2: I said, so, you actually told a lie in the

778
00:36:52,921 --> 00:36:55,961
Speaker 2: newspaper that you should have just said it was me

779
00:36:56,041 --> 00:36:59,321
Speaker 2: and the boys. That's how the legal system works and

780
00:36:59,361 --> 00:37:02,121
Speaker 2: the media works. Now, I'm not saying the media is

781
00:37:02,161 --> 00:37:05,401
Speaker 2: bad because I'm the bank robber. Once I become a

782
00:37:05,401 --> 00:37:08,641
Speaker 2: bank Robber. It's open slather on poor old Dougie, and

783
00:37:08,681 --> 00:37:11,361
Speaker 2: I accept that, and that's part of my responsibility in

784
00:37:11,401 --> 00:37:15,041
Speaker 2: rebuilding my life. I have been to Jeff's house, I've

785
00:37:15,081 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: had meals with Jeff. I have no animosity at all.

786
00:37:18,481 --> 00:37:21,121
Speaker 2: But at the time that moment he told me that,

787
00:37:21,201 --> 00:37:23,681
Speaker 2: I went, I don't think that's fair, Jeff, but such

788
00:37:23,761 --> 00:37:24,361
Speaker 2: is life.

789
00:37:25,761 --> 00:37:27,721
Speaker 1: Well, it wasn't as if you robbed a Lully store,

790
00:37:27,841 --> 00:37:30,481
Speaker 1: was it. Look, you probably deserve what you've got. But

791
00:37:30,561 --> 00:37:33,681
Speaker 1: there you are behind the bluestone walls of the College

792
00:37:33,721 --> 00:37:37,281
Speaker 1: of Knowledge Pentridge Prison. You'd never been in custody before,

793
00:37:37,361 --> 00:37:40,161
Speaker 1: had no criminal record. You're amongst some of the heaviest

794
00:37:40,201 --> 00:37:43,601
Speaker 1: criminals of your generation, and you're the after Dark Beannit

795
00:37:43,721 --> 00:37:46,201
Speaker 1: or at least part of the duo. How are you treated?

796
00:37:48,001 --> 00:37:50,281
Speaker 2: Everybody treats me the same. They don't know what they do.

797
00:37:50,801 --> 00:37:53,361
Speaker 2: But see, I actually set my jail up by mistake.

798
00:37:54,041 --> 00:37:56,721
Speaker 2: When I walked into the yard, there was Chuck Bennett

799
00:37:56,721 --> 00:37:58,481
Speaker 2: and the boys, and they're playing cards and made Jack

800
00:37:58,481 --> 00:38:02,281
Speaker 2: Bennett and Robert Robber. He supposedly did the bookie robbery

801
00:38:02,281 --> 00:38:04,601
Speaker 2: Buck in the seventies. Supposedly, I don't know if he

802
00:38:04,681 --> 00:38:06,521
Speaker 2: was convince, I'm not going to put him in anyway.

803
00:38:06,561 --> 00:38:07,561
Speaker 3: So he was one of the boys.

804
00:38:07,561 --> 00:38:09,801
Speaker 2: He had his crew there, and I just walked in

805
00:38:09,841 --> 00:38:11,801
Speaker 2: and went, well, I don't need to hang out with

806
00:38:11,881 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: those And I sat on a bench in the sun

807
00:38:13,521 --> 00:38:15,361
Speaker 2: and I'm just sitting there, and slowly people came and

808
00:38:15,361 --> 00:38:17,441
Speaker 2: sat next to me. Over the next days or so,

809
00:38:17,441 --> 00:38:20,081
Speaker 2: so I just had guys and we never talked about crime.

810
00:38:20,121 --> 00:38:22,281
Speaker 3: I'm not into that stuff. My brother used to hang

811
00:38:22,281 --> 00:38:23,201
Speaker 3: around with the big boys.

812
00:38:23,641 --> 00:38:27,761
Speaker 2: But my jail thought of went in one direction. I

813
00:38:27,761 --> 00:38:29,721
Speaker 2: think it started one day when they were carrying out

814
00:38:29,721 --> 00:38:32,281
Speaker 2: a body and I was looking at the body being

815
00:38:32,281 --> 00:38:33,921
Speaker 2: carried out. I thought it was Dad, and the screw

816
00:38:33,961 --> 00:38:36,041
Speaker 2: standing next to me said it only be one thing

817
00:38:36,081 --> 00:38:37,481
Speaker 2: better if it was you or your brother.

818
00:38:37,881 --> 00:38:39,921
Speaker 3: So I king hit him. Not a good thing.

819
00:38:39,961 --> 00:38:43,041
Speaker 2: The king hit the screw after h division. No, what

820
00:38:43,201 --> 00:38:46,641
Speaker 2: happened was I moved down to where our meals the

821
00:38:46,641 --> 00:38:48,801
Speaker 2: area was. All the screws are at the other end.

822
00:38:48,881 --> 00:38:51,121
Speaker 2: Just they had me surrounded. There's nowhere to go in jail.

823
00:38:51,161 --> 00:38:51,561
Speaker 3: Anyway.

824
00:38:52,401 --> 00:38:54,681
Speaker 2: After about ten minutes, that screw that I hit came

825
00:38:54,721 --> 00:38:58,361
Speaker 2: down and said, I've been told to apologize by the governor. Now,

826
00:38:58,521 --> 00:39:01,441
Speaker 2: I don't take myself that I'm that good. What I

827
00:39:01,521 --> 00:39:04,161
Speaker 2: realized straight away was we've got a one hundred and

828
00:39:04,161 --> 00:39:06,681
Speaker 2: fifty criminals in the yard of body's being carried out.

829
00:39:07,081 --> 00:39:09,401
Speaker 2: One guy's fired up and hit a screw for saying

830
00:39:09,401 --> 00:39:12,521
Speaker 2: something stupid. What the governor would have been worried about

831
00:39:12,801 --> 00:39:15,841
Speaker 2: was a lot more violence during that day towards the screws,

832
00:39:16,001 --> 00:39:18,441
Speaker 2: if they beat the crap out of me. So I

833
00:39:18,481 --> 00:39:21,561
Speaker 2: think the governor made a wise move. I think people

834
00:39:21,601 --> 00:39:25,361
Speaker 2: started to go, well, this brother is a little bit haywire.

835
00:39:25,601 --> 00:39:28,761
Speaker 2: But what happened over my journey in jail, I kept

836
00:39:28,801 --> 00:39:31,601
Speaker 2: standing up to the system, and I think the heavy

837
00:39:31,641 --> 00:39:33,921
Speaker 2: started to go. I got given up a few times

838
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:36,921
Speaker 2: by some of the heavies. So I started building a

839
00:39:36,961 --> 00:39:41,121
Speaker 2: reputation and even Jeff Wilks and people like that. Probably

840
00:39:41,161 --> 00:39:43,961
Speaker 2: I set myself up that people go, well, he's a

841
00:39:43,961 --> 00:39:48,321
Speaker 2: stand up boy, so just leave him alone. And if

842
00:39:48,361 --> 00:39:52,601
Speaker 2: you cross me my attitude as well. Today somebody's going

843
00:39:52,641 --> 00:39:55,401
Speaker 2: to get hurt, and so be it. Because what I

844
00:39:55,481 --> 00:39:58,401
Speaker 2: learned pretty quick was I used to jokingly say to

845
00:39:58,401 --> 00:40:01,521
Speaker 2: people my football team was tougher than this. We had

846
00:40:01,521 --> 00:40:03,921
Speaker 2: fights that both teams were in like the old days.

847
00:40:04,521 --> 00:40:06,881
Speaker 2: I have never used a weapon on anybody, not in jail,

848
00:40:06,961 --> 00:40:09,601
Speaker 2: not in anywhere. I'm a stand up boy. If you

849
00:40:09,641 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: say something, I'll punch you, and I'll punch that screw

850
00:40:12,001 --> 00:40:14,121
Speaker 2: again today. If you said that again, I didn't give

851
00:40:14,161 --> 00:40:17,601
Speaker 2: us stuff. That's what he deserved. What I didn't realize

852
00:40:17,681 --> 00:40:20,641
Speaker 2: is I had no respect for a uniform ideal with men.

853
00:40:21,121 --> 00:40:22,881
Speaker 2: Just because you've got a uniform on, don't treat me

854
00:40:22,961 --> 00:40:24,241
Speaker 2: like trash.

855
00:40:24,281 --> 00:40:27,521
Speaker 1: And that attitude got you put in h division, the

856
00:40:27,561 --> 00:40:31,361
Speaker 1: punishment division seven times. It's almost a record, I think.

857
00:40:31,521 --> 00:40:34,801
Speaker 2: Well, possibly, but there was always for investigation. I was

858
00:40:34,841 --> 00:40:37,521
Speaker 2: investigated for stealing eight hundred dollars out of a safe.

859
00:40:37,801 --> 00:40:41,041
Speaker 2: I was investigated for four sticks of Jelig Knight. So

860
00:40:41,121 --> 00:40:42,721
Speaker 2: I actually got the painterwork.

861
00:40:42,281 --> 00:40:45,641
Speaker 1: On four sticks of Jelig Knight inside jail.

862
00:40:45,881 --> 00:40:46,161
Speaker 3: Well.

863
00:40:46,241 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: I ended up pretty well running my life and air.

864
00:40:49,801 --> 00:40:51,841
Speaker 2: I read a book was called King Rat. It was

865
00:40:51,881 --> 00:40:55,081
Speaker 2: about prisoners of war in Japanese war cams. And you

866
00:40:55,121 --> 00:40:56,801
Speaker 2: know when all the movies there's always a guy who's

867
00:40:56,801 --> 00:40:57,561
Speaker 2: got the cigarettes.

868
00:40:58,001 --> 00:41:00,321
Speaker 3: I want to be that guy. I want to be

869
00:41:00,361 --> 00:41:00,721
Speaker 3: the mover.

870
00:41:01,681 --> 00:41:04,281
Speaker 2: So I started selling stuff or selling paintings and getting

871
00:41:04,281 --> 00:41:08,521
Speaker 2: cigarettes and selling the cigarettes. I helped move escape equipment

872
00:41:08,521 --> 00:41:11,401
Speaker 2: around the jail. I helped my brother get a porter power.

873
00:41:11,441 --> 00:41:13,041
Speaker 2: We moved a porter power from one part of the

874
00:41:13,121 --> 00:41:15,321
Speaker 2: jail to another part of the jail to bend bars

875
00:41:15,361 --> 00:41:19,281
Speaker 2: with for his escape. So I very much became the

876
00:41:19,321 --> 00:41:21,761
Speaker 2: go to boy. And if people wanted to get all

877
00:41:21,761 --> 00:41:24,161
Speaker 2: owned up. Now when the girls are in the annex

878
00:41:24,241 --> 00:41:26,681
Speaker 2: right next to B Division, some of the boys had

879
00:41:26,681 --> 00:41:29,281
Speaker 2: come Dougie, can you get into the annex because you're

880
00:41:29,281 --> 00:41:31,121
Speaker 2: a carpenter and you used to work in one gang.

881
00:41:31,801 --> 00:41:34,081
Speaker 2: They had heard that the girls needed shelves to put

882
00:41:34,121 --> 00:41:35,721
Speaker 2: their TVs on in the new cells.

883
00:41:36,761 --> 00:41:38,081
Speaker 3: I said, yeah, I'll go and see.

884
00:41:37,841 --> 00:41:39,441
Speaker 2: One gang and get a job there and I'll be

885
00:41:39,481 --> 00:41:42,241
Speaker 2: able to get into the annex. So what I did,

886
00:41:42,281 --> 00:41:44,001
Speaker 2: I went and got the job so I could deliberately

887
00:41:44,001 --> 00:41:46,041
Speaker 2: get into the annex, so I could take drugs into

888
00:41:46,081 --> 00:41:49,321
Speaker 2: the annex. What I did was I made myself a toolbox,

889
00:41:49,441 --> 00:41:52,121
Speaker 2: like the old fashioned wooden one with a handle across

890
00:41:52,161 --> 00:41:55,561
Speaker 2: the top. It had a false compartment, so I used

891
00:41:55,561 --> 00:41:57,401
Speaker 2: to get the drugs from the boys, and B Division

892
00:41:57,721 --> 00:41:59,481
Speaker 2: put him in my toolbox and take him into the

893
00:41:59,521 --> 00:42:02,921
Speaker 2: annex to their girlfriends. Now, one day, one of the

894
00:42:02,961 --> 00:42:05,801
Speaker 2: overseers from one gang, I mean his name, I just

895
00:42:05,841 --> 00:42:08,521
Speaker 2: remember his name right now. We were walking up to

896
00:42:08,561 --> 00:42:10,401
Speaker 2: the annex and put a shelf up for a TV

897
00:42:10,961 --> 00:42:13,321
Speaker 2: and the dog squad was in the annex and I've

898
00:42:13,361 --> 00:42:17,001
Speaker 2: got drugs in my toolbox. He looked at me and said,

899
00:42:17,121 --> 00:42:19,761
Speaker 2: do you reckon? You should have a coffee. I said yes,

900
00:42:19,801 --> 00:42:22,121
Speaker 2: I'd like to go into BE Division where I lived. Oh,

901
00:42:22,121 --> 00:42:24,361
Speaker 2: I'm going to have a coffee. So I go into

902
00:42:24,401 --> 00:42:26,761
Speaker 2: BE Division. Now I can't take the tools to myself,

903
00:42:27,161 --> 00:42:29,001
Speaker 2: so I went into the B division to the circle.

904
00:42:29,321 --> 00:42:30,961
Speaker 2: I looked at the screw and going, look, I'm just

905
00:42:30,961 --> 00:42:32,441
Speaker 2: going to grab a coffee and I'm going in the

906
00:42:32,441 --> 00:42:34,561
Speaker 2: annex in a minute. But they're not ready for me yet.

907
00:42:34,961 --> 00:42:37,801
Speaker 2: Can you look after my tools for me? So the

908
00:42:37,881 --> 00:42:40,561
Speaker 2: screws looked after my drugs and tools while I had

909
00:42:40,601 --> 00:42:41,161
Speaker 2: a coffee.

910
00:42:41,761 --> 00:42:45,041
Speaker 1: Nice one. So I think the statute of limitations may

911
00:42:45,041 --> 00:42:46,641
Speaker 1: have run out, so you could be safe on that one.

912
00:42:46,761 --> 00:42:47,601
Speaker 3: They can come for me.

913
00:42:48,001 --> 00:42:52,281
Speaker 1: But somewhere in your long stretch, your heart changed. A

914
00:42:52,321 --> 00:42:55,601
Speaker 1: lot of guys went into Pentridge particularly h division went

915
00:42:55,641 --> 00:42:58,121
Speaker 1: in as a bicycle thief, came out as a very serious,

916
00:42:58,481 --> 00:43:01,561
Speaker 1: pathological murderer. What happened to you in there that changed

917
00:43:01,641 --> 00:43:02,161
Speaker 1: your life?

918
00:43:02,201 --> 00:43:04,721
Speaker 2: Well, go back to where I said under that tree,

919
00:43:05,041 --> 00:43:07,521
Speaker 2: looked at my brother's ego. I decided that day never

920
00:43:07,561 --> 00:43:09,921
Speaker 2: to be a bank robbery again. I never carried a

921
00:43:09,921 --> 00:43:12,161
Speaker 2: gun after that. I never robbed a bank after that.

922
00:43:12,201 --> 00:43:14,961
Speaker 2: I assisted him on the last job. I didn't want to,

923
00:43:15,281 --> 00:43:17,161
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm not going to assist you, and

924
00:43:17,201 --> 00:43:18,841
Speaker 2: I'll tell you the truth if I assisted him because

925
00:43:18,841 --> 00:43:21,081
Speaker 2: a friend of mine wanted ten thousand dollars to buy

926
00:43:21,081 --> 00:43:23,161
Speaker 2: a trailer for a semi My brother wanted to do

927
00:43:23,201 --> 00:43:24,921
Speaker 2: a job, and that's why I helped him in the

928
00:43:24,961 --> 00:43:26,681
Speaker 2: last job. But I did very little, and that's why

929
00:43:26,721 --> 00:43:30,721
Speaker 2: he got caught. I always looked upon the jail as

930
00:43:31,241 --> 00:43:34,241
Speaker 2: the gap in my life between going back out and

931
00:43:34,281 --> 00:43:37,321
Speaker 2: having a life and actually living up to my ability.

932
00:43:38,041 --> 00:43:40,961
Speaker 2: So the jail to me was just not part of

933
00:43:41,001 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: the crimes. But I probably had more fun or more

934
00:43:44,001 --> 00:43:46,841
Speaker 2: anti social while I was in jail than on the outside,

935
00:43:47,161 --> 00:43:50,521
Speaker 2: because I didn't like the system. It was too brutal

936
00:43:50,601 --> 00:43:53,681
Speaker 2: for what it was meant to be. Too many young

937
00:43:53,681 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: people hung themselves. Too many young people got raped. Now

938
00:43:57,601 --> 00:44:00,321
Speaker 2: people talk about jails, and I'm involved with the National

939
00:44:00,321 --> 00:44:02,561
Speaker 2: Trust and tours and stuff like that over the past.

940
00:44:02,601 --> 00:44:04,641
Speaker 2: Don't do it anymore. And people say, what's the jail?

941
00:44:04,721 --> 00:44:07,601
Speaker 2: Like I go, jail is not a jail. You put

942
00:44:08,161 --> 00:44:11,961
Speaker 2: criminals into a room. That's a jail. The creams inside

943
00:44:11,961 --> 00:44:14,321
Speaker 2: the jail and the screws with the buttons, the men

944
00:44:14,401 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: on both sides of the jail, they're the violence, they're

945
00:44:17,561 --> 00:44:23,201
Speaker 2: the intimidation, they're the stress. Right now, what happens is

946
00:44:23,681 --> 00:44:26,881
Speaker 2: am I joking about this? Because most creams will talk, oh, jail,

947
00:44:27,001 --> 00:44:28,721
Speaker 2: and they're so bad, and they treat us like this,

948
00:44:29,241 --> 00:44:32,161
Speaker 2: And I openly say this to people. They go So

949
00:44:32,361 --> 00:44:35,441
Speaker 2: when you reflect, now, what do you see about the jail?

950
00:44:35,921 --> 00:44:38,521
Speaker 2: I copped a few buttons and got my heads from

951
00:44:38,521 --> 00:44:42,041
Speaker 2: bashed into the concrete a couple of times, but that

952
00:44:42,161 --> 00:44:46,961
Speaker 2: wound heals. No button has ever busted me. What busted

953
00:44:47,001 --> 00:44:48,161
Speaker 2: me was what I did.

954
00:44:48,001 --> 00:44:52,121
Speaker 1: To my children, correct, But also the things that happened

955
00:44:52,201 --> 00:44:55,601
Speaker 1: to other people that you were witnessed too. You talk

956
00:44:55,681 --> 00:44:59,281
Speaker 1: about the eight or ten young men who suicided while

957
00:44:59,321 --> 00:45:02,921
Speaker 1: you're in there. You talk about when Jimmy Lofton, who

958
00:45:02,961 --> 00:45:05,441
Speaker 1: came to fame by stabbing chopper later on, but you

959
00:45:05,521 --> 00:45:09,201
Speaker 1: saw him cutch someone's throat and the blood went on you. Yep,

960
00:45:09,761 --> 00:45:12,201
Speaker 1: these things are wounds that never heal.

961
00:45:12,961 --> 00:45:13,601
Speaker 3: Yes, but there.

962
00:45:15,321 --> 00:45:17,761
Speaker 2: I spent three years as a volunteer after the Black

963
00:45:17,761 --> 00:45:21,241
Speaker 2: sat Day bushfires. I have more feeling for those victims

964
00:45:21,481 --> 00:45:24,881
Speaker 2: than the bloker got his throat cut, because if you

965
00:45:24,921 --> 00:45:26,881
Speaker 2: weren't in jail, you didn't get the throat cut, because

966
00:45:26,881 --> 00:45:29,921
Speaker 2: he was a reasonably big time crew. But the problem

967
00:45:29,961 --> 00:45:33,721
Speaker 2: I have with jail was I wear this beard. I

968
00:45:33,801 --> 00:45:36,081
Speaker 2: grew that in jail and refused to shave and did.

969
00:45:36,081 --> 00:45:38,721
Speaker 2: Then nextra six months jail for that beard because they

970
00:45:38,761 --> 00:45:40,721
Speaker 2: told me I couldn't have a beard because of lice,

971
00:45:41,201 --> 00:45:43,281
Speaker 2: but I could have five showers, ten hours a day.

972
00:45:43,841 --> 00:45:47,081
Speaker 2: That rule was nineteen hundred and one. Now I'll give

973
00:45:47,081 --> 00:45:49,521
Speaker 2: you an example. I didn't like jail. They moved me

974
00:45:49,601 --> 00:45:52,241
Speaker 2: from D Division. You're supposed to stay there till your sentence.

975
00:45:52,561 --> 00:45:54,921
Speaker 2: I got kicked out of D Division. I spent two

976
00:45:54,961 --> 00:45:57,681
Speaker 2: weeks in the condemn yard by myself. That held me there,

977
00:45:57,921 --> 00:45:59,641
Speaker 2: which was a great time to reflect being in the

978
00:45:59,681 --> 00:46:02,721
Speaker 2: condemn yard, knowing Ronald Ryan was the last one hung there.

979
00:46:03,401 --> 00:46:05,721
Speaker 2: When I get to a division, I walk into a

980
00:46:05,761 --> 00:46:07,561
Speaker 2: di v's and I see the chief and the governor

981
00:46:07,561 --> 00:46:09,841
Speaker 2: because they talked to you when you get there. And

982
00:46:09,881 --> 00:46:11,921
Speaker 2: I said, oh, can I have a TV? I'm doing

983
00:46:11,961 --> 00:46:13,361
Speaker 2: a long time. And they said, no, you can't have

984
00:46:13,401 --> 00:46:15,401
Speaker 2: a TV. You've got to be a lifer. There was

985
00:46:15,401 --> 00:46:18,321
Speaker 2: a cells on the bottom of a division. On the

986
00:46:18,321 --> 00:46:20,841
Speaker 2: bottom tier, they all had TVs and the other one

987
00:46:20,921 --> 00:46:22,441
Speaker 2: hundred prisoners had no TVs.

988
00:46:23,041 --> 00:46:24,721
Speaker 3: I went, why are they different?

989
00:46:25,161 --> 00:46:27,761
Speaker 2: So if the public knew that people that had killed

990
00:46:27,801 --> 00:46:31,121
Speaker 2: people were getting better treatment than somebody who sold a car,

991
00:46:31,481 --> 00:46:32,361
Speaker 2: they'd be amazed.

992
00:46:32,641 --> 00:46:34,361
Speaker 3: Do you know, I said the governor. I said, no,

993
00:46:34,481 --> 00:46:36,321
Speaker 3: I want a TV. They got TV.

994
00:46:36,361 --> 00:46:39,881
Speaker 2: I want a TV. I believed in equal rights. He said,

995
00:46:40,001 --> 00:46:42,561
Speaker 2: you're not doing life. You've got to be doing life.

996
00:46:43,001 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: Said you know, I said toweenm flippantly. I said, give

997
00:46:45,481 --> 00:46:48,121
Speaker 2: me five minutes. I'll be back from a TV. He

998
00:46:48,121 --> 00:46:50,921
Speaker 2: gave me a TV. But what I learned was the

999
00:46:50,961 --> 00:46:54,281
Speaker 2: system was wrong because it made class distinctions. Now I'll

1000
00:46:54,281 --> 00:46:56,841
Speaker 2: tell you that the A division was run by the

1001
00:46:56,921 --> 00:47:00,241
Speaker 2: drama group. In those days now. The governor loved the

1002
00:47:00,321 --> 00:47:03,361
Speaker 2: drama group because it brought in revenue they gave to charity,

1003
00:47:03,441 --> 00:47:05,881
Speaker 2: made the jail look good. Do you know who had

1004
00:47:05,921 --> 00:47:10,361
Speaker 2: control anybody who had control of the drama group, the prisoner.

1005
00:47:10,961 --> 00:47:13,641
Speaker 2: He had God all mighty power over the rest of

1006
00:47:13,681 --> 00:47:17,121
Speaker 2: the prisoners in a division because he was the top man,

1007
00:47:17,561 --> 00:47:20,881
Speaker 2: because the governor looked after him. The man that ran

1008
00:47:20,961 --> 00:47:22,921
Speaker 2: the drama group when I got there was Keith Riary,

1009
00:47:22,961 --> 00:47:25,841
Speaker 2: a child molester. He had the best selling a division,

1010
00:47:25,921 --> 00:47:26,881
Speaker 2: a child molester.

1011
00:47:27,561 --> 00:47:30,561
Speaker 1: Life is not fair, especially inside jail. But you developed

1012
00:47:30,601 --> 00:47:34,041
Speaker 1: a fierce disdain for authority in there. You're an ext

1013
00:47:34,041 --> 00:47:36,601
Speaker 1: bank robber, You've shot some of them on the run and

1014
00:47:36,641 --> 00:47:38,801
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. You come out a lot

1015
00:47:38,801 --> 00:47:41,481
Speaker 1: of people with your profile, spent about five minutes on

1016
00:47:41,521 --> 00:47:44,041
Speaker 1: the outside, full foul of the law, and go back

1017
00:47:44,081 --> 00:47:45,201
Speaker 1: in again. Why didn't you?

1018
00:47:45,321 --> 00:47:47,201
Speaker 2: Because I was sticking to what I believed and I

1019
00:47:47,241 --> 00:47:50,081
Speaker 2: was going to go straight. When I walked out of prison,

1020
00:47:50,201 --> 00:47:53,081
Speaker 2: I looked over my shoulder, I still remember it, looked

1021
00:47:53,121 --> 00:47:54,921
Speaker 2: over my left shoulder and said, war was over.

1022
00:47:55,081 --> 00:47:55,401
Speaker 3: Boys.

1023
00:47:56,081 --> 00:47:58,801
Speaker 2: And I went home and within three days I was

1024
00:47:58,881 --> 00:48:02,441
Speaker 2: working in the may Max factory. At Daninong on the

1025
00:48:02,441 --> 00:48:07,201
Speaker 2: two o'clock start shift making us and I rebuilt my life.

1026
00:48:07,921 --> 00:48:10,361
Speaker 2: I got day leaves. In the last couple of months

1027
00:48:10,361 --> 00:48:13,521
Speaker 2: of my jail. I didn't go home to have a

1028
00:48:13,561 --> 00:48:17,081
Speaker 2: party with my wife or girlfriend. I went and did

1029
00:48:17,281 --> 00:48:19,321
Speaker 2: car lessons. So I get a new license because I

1030
00:48:19,361 --> 00:48:22,001
Speaker 2: lost it because I was a carfief. So everything I

1031
00:48:22,121 --> 00:48:25,481
Speaker 2: was doing, even learning to paint and raise money and

1032
00:48:25,521 --> 00:48:29,681
Speaker 2: selling cigarettes to raise money, everything I did was for

1033
00:48:29,761 --> 00:48:32,041
Speaker 2: one aim, my next adventure.

1034
00:48:33,081 --> 00:48:36,480
Speaker 1: And you've worked with at risk youth as well. You've

1035
00:48:36,481 --> 00:48:40,361
Speaker 1: tried to give back, You've stayed straight all these years.

1036
00:48:41,161 --> 00:48:44,001
Speaker 1: How do you reflect on the decisions now? You think

1037
00:48:44,041 --> 00:48:48,041
Speaker 1: of the wasted time robbing banks and doing all that jail.

1038
00:48:48,761 --> 00:48:51,881
Speaker 1: What do you think life would have held for you otherwise?

1039
00:48:52,361 --> 00:48:56,201
Speaker 2: If I wasn't a banker, HM probably be pretty boring. Really,

1040
00:48:56,241 --> 00:48:58,121
Speaker 2: I'd just be a carpenter. I'm a very good carton,

1041
00:48:58,161 --> 00:49:01,241
Speaker 2: better cartoner than a bank robber. But look at it

1042
00:49:01,281 --> 00:49:04,801
Speaker 2: this way, Adam, what power do I have now? I

1043
00:49:04,841 --> 00:49:08,601
Speaker 2: have the experience and the stories that young people take

1044
00:49:08,641 --> 00:49:11,961
Speaker 2: notice of what I say. You have no idea I

1045
00:49:12,041 --> 00:49:15,321
Speaker 2: have young people even out of pantries. I'll walk up

1046
00:49:15,361 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: to a group at school, kids like high school kids

1047
00:49:17,481 --> 00:49:19,841
Speaker 2: that are having a coffee or whatever, or a donut

1048
00:49:19,921 --> 00:49:22,481
Speaker 2: or something in the grounds of pantries from the nearby schools,

1049
00:49:22,881 --> 00:49:26,001
Speaker 2: and I'll go, hey, come and sit down, and they'll

1050
00:49:26,041 --> 00:49:28,201
Speaker 2: look at me and go, you want to talk to

1051
00:49:28,241 --> 00:49:31,121
Speaker 2: an old bank robber. They google me straight away and

1052
00:49:31,161 --> 00:49:35,921
Speaker 2: see I'm being serious, and they ask totally on the

1053
00:49:36,001 --> 00:49:38,321
Speaker 2: edge of every word I say, and at the end

1054
00:49:38,321 --> 00:49:41,841
Speaker 2: of every conversation, I'll tell them live up to your potential,

1055
00:49:42,081 --> 00:49:45,041
Speaker 2: don't waste it. And the other thing is, I'll quote

1056
00:49:45,041 --> 00:49:47,401
Speaker 2: some footballers in a strange way. I can be a

1057
00:49:47,481 --> 00:49:49,881
Speaker 2: role model. And I even look at it, even driving

1058
00:49:49,881 --> 00:49:53,561
Speaker 2: down here today. There's very few crims like that have

1059
00:49:53,641 --> 00:49:55,721
Speaker 2: done what I've done or been involved with the things

1060
00:49:55,761 --> 00:49:59,081
Speaker 2: in pentries, that will stand there and go all that

1061
00:49:59,641 --> 00:50:02,521
Speaker 2: is got to help somebody. So in that case, like

1062
00:50:03,041 --> 00:50:06,921
Speaker 2: I've done, letchures at vic Uni to the law students

1063
00:50:07,521 --> 00:50:10,841
Speaker 2: and all I asked from them was that one of

1064
00:50:10,881 --> 00:50:13,401
Speaker 2: them in that room would think about how they can

1065
00:50:13,481 --> 00:50:16,761
Speaker 2: change things for the better. I said, then the job

1066
00:50:16,801 --> 00:50:19,721
Speaker 2: will be worthwhile. Otherwise it's just money. I used to

1067
00:50:19,761 --> 00:50:22,401
Speaker 2: go to Raven Hall Prison before the pandemic, and I

1068
00:50:22,441 --> 00:50:25,161
Speaker 2: was the warm up act talking to the prisoners and

1069
00:50:25,241 --> 00:50:26,841
Speaker 2: tell them what jobs they could give them when they

1070
00:50:26,881 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: get out. My opening words to the prisoners was, I'm

1071
00:50:30,561 --> 00:50:33,801
Speaker 2: very sad. I am really sad today to see you here.

1072
00:50:34,481 --> 00:50:36,681
Speaker 2: I'm old enough to be your grandfather or your father,

1073
00:50:37,441 --> 00:50:41,081
Speaker 2: and you are failing. You've got to be better crooks

1074
00:50:41,401 --> 00:50:43,641
Speaker 2: or stop doing it. I'm not here to tell you

1075
00:50:43,721 --> 00:50:46,121
Speaker 2: can't be a crook, but if you're a bad crook,

1076
00:50:46,241 --> 00:50:49,801
Speaker 2: stop doing it. Because what my belief is, I will

1077
00:50:49,801 --> 00:50:52,961
Speaker 2: never say to somebody, don't do this because you're hurting people.

1078
00:50:53,681 --> 00:50:54,561
Speaker 3: That will not work.

1079
00:50:54,921 --> 00:50:57,881
Speaker 2: You have to say to people, don't do this because

1080
00:50:57,881 --> 00:50:58,881
Speaker 2: you're going to hurt yourself.

1081
00:50:59,521 --> 00:51:03,241
Speaker 1: You put your life together again, admirably, repaired your relationship

1082
00:51:03,281 --> 00:51:07,561
Speaker 1: with your children. You're able member of society. There's one

1083
00:51:08,481 --> 00:51:13,001
Speaker 1: unfinished piece of business. Your ole partner in crime, your

1084
00:51:13,041 --> 00:51:16,561
Speaker 1: brother you don't talk to at all, and you fire

1085
00:51:16,601 --> 00:51:19,041
Speaker 1: potshots at each other. Do you think there's a day

1086
00:51:19,041 --> 00:51:20,881
Speaker 1: where you might be able to patch that one up.

1087
00:51:21,001 --> 00:51:23,081
Speaker 2: Well, I hadn't spoken to him for two years and

1088
00:51:23,121 --> 00:51:25,321
Speaker 2: it was going to be a documentary, so they contacted

1089
00:51:25,361 --> 00:51:27,601
Speaker 2: him and then he rang me to see if he

1090
00:51:27,681 --> 00:51:29,921
Speaker 2: wanted to do it with me, and I said to him,

1091
00:51:30,001 --> 00:51:31,481
Speaker 2: only do it if there's something in it for you,

1092
00:51:31,481 --> 00:51:33,121
Speaker 2: because they're going to take you to town again.

1093
00:51:33,321 --> 00:51:34,601
Speaker 3: So I actually gave him advice.

1094
00:51:35,441 --> 00:51:38,361
Speaker 2: But during those conversations, for about a week or two weeks,

1095
00:51:38,721 --> 00:51:41,081
Speaker 2: I realized that I don't want to be involved with

1096
00:51:41,121 --> 00:51:45,001
Speaker 2: documentaries that highlight only too much on the crimes. And

1097
00:51:45,041 --> 00:51:47,481
Speaker 2: I actually told my brother, I said, don't worry. We've

1098
00:51:47,521 --> 00:51:49,321
Speaker 2: had a lot of fistfights. And he hit me on

1099
00:51:49,361 --> 00:51:51,801
Speaker 2: the head with lumps of timber and tried to stab me.

1100
00:51:51,841 --> 00:51:54,361
Speaker 2: And I've heard of his bullets whistle past me as well.

1101
00:51:54,401 --> 00:51:56,041
Speaker 2: So we won't get into all that. And do you

1102
00:51:56,041 --> 00:51:58,281
Speaker 2: know what I said to him, I said, I'm not

1103
00:51:58,361 --> 00:52:00,281
Speaker 2: angry at you've forgiven me up, because they would have

1104
00:52:00,281 --> 00:52:01,081
Speaker 2: shot me anyway.

1105
00:52:01,761 --> 00:52:04,401
Speaker 1: So he did you a favor, I reckon, well, I

1106
00:52:04,481 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: actually we all carry what we've done now.

1107
00:52:09,521 --> 00:52:12,761
Speaker 2: I would imagine the press. Have you mentioned it today?

1108
00:52:12,761 --> 00:52:16,161
Speaker 2: He gave me up. That must hurt him. I know that,

1109
00:52:16,801 --> 00:52:19,641
Speaker 2: so deep down I do feel sorry for him. But

1110
00:52:19,801 --> 00:52:23,401
Speaker 2: all I ever wanted for him was sorry, Doug, I weakened.

1111
00:52:25,321 --> 00:52:28,241
Speaker 1: I knew you would, but everyone does in the end.

1112
00:52:28,281 --> 00:52:31,721
Speaker 1: That's the fallacy of all this staunchness. Eventually, when you're

1113
00:52:31,761 --> 00:52:34,641
Speaker 1: in custody facing a long stretch, they all do it.

1114
00:52:34,921 --> 00:52:35,481
Speaker 3: Well, guess what.

1115
00:52:35,521 --> 00:52:38,921
Speaker 2: I've sat in hatavision cells doing time and hastivision for

1116
00:52:39,001 --> 00:52:42,361
Speaker 2: other people who had actually given me up. And you

1117
00:52:42,401 --> 00:52:45,201
Speaker 2: know what I thought to myself, Well, I'm above that person,

1118
00:52:45,201 --> 00:52:45,681
Speaker 2: aren't I.

1119
00:52:45,681 --> 00:52:47,681
Speaker 3: I've got a bit of morals.

1120
00:52:48,161 --> 00:52:50,561
Speaker 1: Well, maybe maybe he will come to you and say

1121
00:52:50,601 --> 00:52:55,161
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, ask for forgiveness. What about you forgiving him?

1122
00:52:55,641 --> 00:52:58,801
Speaker 2: Well, have I told him that I know? And you've

1123
00:52:58,841 --> 00:53:01,361
Speaker 2: said it to me, and you've said it now if

1124
00:53:01,401 --> 00:53:04,481
Speaker 2: they had just got him, he didn't follow the plans

1125
00:53:04,481 --> 00:53:06,281
Speaker 2: how we were going to beat all this, so he

1126
00:53:06,361 --> 00:53:07,361
Speaker 2: brought it undone.

1127
00:53:07,481 --> 00:53:10,361
Speaker 3: All right, once it's undone, it's gone. Now.

1128
00:53:10,481 --> 00:53:12,561
Speaker 2: Everybody that knows us knew we worked together on the

1129
00:53:12,561 --> 00:53:16,041
Speaker 2: building sites. Knew we did everything together except when we

1130
00:53:15,921 --> 00:53:18,001
Speaker 2: were punching on then we'd have about a week apart.

1131
00:53:18,441 --> 00:53:20,241
Speaker 2: We had some really good nights on buildings sides. Don't

1132
00:53:20,241 --> 00:53:22,121
Speaker 2: worry about that. Tried to run over me one night

1133
00:53:22,161 --> 00:53:24,801
Speaker 2: with his car, so it used to get pretty heated,

1134
00:53:24,841 --> 00:53:25,401
Speaker 2: but that's life.

1135
00:53:25,401 --> 00:53:26,921
Speaker 3: We've been punching on since we'll four.

1136
00:53:27,441 --> 00:53:31,081
Speaker 2: And the thing is, everybody would have said if they

1137
00:53:31,161 --> 00:53:34,321
Speaker 2: once he's was known on TV that he's the after

1138
00:53:34,401 --> 00:53:37,641
Speaker 2: dark banded, everybody would have been jumping up and ringing

1139
00:53:37,641 --> 00:53:39,561
Speaker 2: the police and going, you better have a look at

1140
00:53:39,561 --> 00:53:42,081
Speaker 2: his brother. So I would have been gone, and I

1141
00:53:42,121 --> 00:53:45,001
Speaker 2: already had the police on my back from when I

1142
00:53:45,041 --> 00:53:47,201
Speaker 2: was a bank teller. When I left the bank there

1143
00:53:47,281 --> 00:53:49,361
Speaker 2: was supposedly money disappeared.

1144
00:53:49,681 --> 00:53:52,601
Speaker 1: Oh another bank robbery that we can add to your Telly.

1145
00:53:52,961 --> 00:53:55,521
Speaker 3: Now I beat that. When I'm a good talker, good Doug.

1146
00:53:55,601 --> 00:53:57,321
Speaker 1: It's an absolute pleasure talking to you, And I think

1147
00:53:57,361 --> 00:54:01,001
Speaker 1: next time I have you here, my dream, my wish

1148
00:54:01,481 --> 00:54:04,041
Speaker 1: is to have the other after that bandit sitting next

1149
00:54:04,041 --> 00:54:09,601
Speaker 1: to you, think it's a possibility.

1150
00:54:07,321 --> 00:54:09,721
Speaker 2: We were like what he would say, What he would

1151
00:54:09,721 --> 00:54:12,401
Speaker 2: say to me, not to you? Why should I make

1152
00:54:12,401 --> 00:54:13,681
Speaker 2: those bastards any money?

1153
00:54:14,721 --> 00:54:19,841
Speaker 1: Well, you know, the reconciliation is a tantalizing thought though,

1154
00:54:19,921 --> 00:54:20,241
Speaker 1: my friends.

1155
00:54:20,281 --> 00:54:22,041
Speaker 2: Well see the reason. I'll tell you why I do it.

1156
00:54:22,121 --> 00:54:25,961
Speaker 2: I think that I go okay, the media. What people

1157
00:54:26,001 --> 00:54:28,881
Speaker 2: have to understand the media. I can live off crime,

1158
00:54:29,041 --> 00:54:32,401
Speaker 2: and criminals can't live off crime. That's the law. But

1159
00:54:32,481 --> 00:54:35,361
Speaker 2: what I realize is I've already said it today. My

1160
00:54:35,441 --> 00:54:38,041
Speaker 2: life was wasted that period, but it came good because

1161
00:54:38,081 --> 00:54:40,161
Speaker 2: I've now got the power to do something so that

1162
00:54:40,281 --> 00:54:44,721
Speaker 2: makes my wasted life worthwhile. That's why I'm here today.

1163
00:54:44,961 --> 00:54:47,401
Speaker 2: I'm not here for dollars. I don't care about the

1164
00:54:47,441 --> 00:54:51,921
Speaker 2: dollars because dollars will not help anybody else. All they'll

1165
00:54:51,921 --> 00:54:55,561
Speaker 2: do is I'll probably go to the races tomorrow. And

1166
00:54:56,001 --> 00:54:57,441
Speaker 2: because I used to joke only, I used to be

1167
00:54:57,441 --> 00:54:59,121
Speaker 2: a big gambler, but it's a lot harder when it's

1168
00:54:59,121 --> 00:54:59,761
Speaker 2: your own money.

1169
00:55:00,361 --> 00:55:02,681
Speaker 1: Indeed, Well, thanks for your time, Dog really appreciate it.

1170
00:55:02,961 --> 00:55:05,281
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure and I hope that we're open

1171
00:55:05,321 --> 00:55:07,561
Speaker 2: to a few people or people have listened to us

1172
00:55:07,761 --> 00:55:09,961
Speaker 2: that will think about living up to their potential.

1173
00:55:11,441 --> 00:55:15,321
Speaker 1: That was Doug Morgan, one part of the After Dark

1174
00:55:15,521 --> 00:55:17,801
Speaker 1: Bandit there were two of them, identical twins. It's one

1175
00:55:17,801 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: of the great Australian stories. There should be a film

1176
00:55:19,481 --> 00:55:21,201
Speaker 1: about it. In my opinion, one day someone will make

1177
00:55:21,201 --> 00:55:23,361
Speaker 1: a film. In the meantime, it's been an absolute pleasure to

1178
00:55:23,361 --> 00:55:25,841
Speaker 1: talk to Doug Morgan today. If you have any stories,

1179
00:55:26,241 --> 00:55:28,761
Speaker 1: please let us know. Send me an email on Adam Shanner,

1180
00:55:28,761 --> 00:55:31,801
Speaker 1: writer at gmail dot com. If you want to call

1181
00:55:31,881 --> 00:55:33,481
Speaker 1: crime stop as you can, but call me first. If

1182
00:55:33,481 --> 00:55:35,201
Speaker 1: you don't mind to send me an email first. I'll

1183
00:55:35,241 --> 00:55:37,961
Speaker 1: let it had a triple three, triples zero. This has

1184
00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:40,321
Speaker 1: been a real crime with Adam shann Thank you for listening.

1185
00:55:40,561 --> 00:55:43,041
Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe and we'll talk to you next time.

1186
00:55:43,161 --> 00:55:52,401
Speaker 1: Thank you.