Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives
Speaker 1: detective sy aside of life. The average person has never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Before her brother Eden was murdered, Jessica Brown was already
Speaker 1: fighting for change in the justice system. She already dedicated
Speaker 1: her career to helping disadvantage girls, giving them a chance
Speaker 1: to break the cycle of destitution and abuse through mentoring, education,
Speaker 1: and crisis intervention. Then Eden was murdered, and everything she
Speaker 1: thought she understood about violence, loss and justice suddenly became
Speaker 1: very personal. In this episode, she takes us inside her
Speaker 1: fight for change through her work with Sister The Sister
Speaker 1: and Worry a Woman, along with the work she does
Speaker 1: on the Serious Offenders Review Board. But that's not all.
Speaker 1: As you know, if you're a regular listener of the podcast,
Speaker 1: Anthony Jones, the man who murdered Eden has been released
Speaker 1: from prison. Here what Jessica has to say about it.
Speaker 1: Jessica Brown, Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well we got through through part one. I hope it
Speaker 1: wasn't too tough.
Speaker 2: I was a bit emotional, but yeah.
Speaker 1: I know it's a hard subject matter when we're talking
Speaker 1: about the murder murder of your your brother, But that's okay.
Speaker 1: As I said, I think it's remarkable how you processing
Speaker 1: it and the work that you're doing that we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about now. But I suppose when we think
Speaker 1: of your brother, how do you think he'd be looking
Speaker 1: down there this now and what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Then, Yeah, he was so proud of what I was doing.
Speaker 2: He was and him and his mate. You know, if
Speaker 2: I was ever in the article or in the newspaper
Speaker 2: or anything like that, he'd cut it out and put
Speaker 2: it up. And so yeah, he's really really proud of
Speaker 2: his big siss. I think now he'd be looking down
Speaker 2: now and being he would love be a bit toughed
Speaker 2: that he is still being talked about, and also that
Speaker 2: I've started my second charity to be able to help
Speaker 2: young young women, you know, to help them turn their
Speaker 2: lives around, so that they don't end up on a
Speaker 2: really really negative trajectory and end up having children and
Speaker 2: lose them to fostercare system and you know boys. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like a revolving door, so which is also helping
Speaker 2: boys and girls, you know, like Aj, he you know
Speaker 2: from his story for those people who've watched the podcast
Speaker 2: would know that he had you know, he was up
Speaker 2: against it since from day on.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the type of work that you were
Speaker 1: doing before what happened to Eden, and then seeing the
Speaker 1: impact that AJ's actions had on your family and had
Speaker 1: on you, and then realizing that the work that you're
Speaker 1: doing could possibly steer people away. We're finishing off part one.
Speaker 1: We're talking about how as a school teacher, and I
Speaker 1: don't know, that just made me feel sad but also
Speaker 1: happy for the kid that you showed a bit of
Speaker 1: interest in at school and turned his life around. And
Speaker 1: now you get discounts at JB. How cool is that?
Speaker 2: I know he's a beautiful kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but okay, you're a school teacher. When did you
Speaker 1: decide to make the big, big move and how did
Speaker 1: that occur?
Speaker 2: As I said, I loved I taught out in the
Speaker 2: Western City for ten years, so I probably taught Glockenspielt too,
Speaker 2: some underwhelmed kids. True story. So yeah, I had this
Speaker 2: entrepreneur spark in me that wasn't going away. And for
Speaker 2: some reason, my dad was an entrepreneur and he had
Speaker 2: his own travel business for many, many years. So that
Speaker 2: spark was I wanted to do more than teaching. And
Speaker 2: I saw many young kids sort of dropping out of
Speaker 2: school and we wouldn't see them again, and the welfare
Speaker 2: system as well, so I saw gaps. So I decided
Speaker 2: to start Sister and Sister, where we match at risk
Speaker 2: teenage girls with mentors and we help them and support
Speaker 2: them through mentorship but also education. And so we would
Speaker 2: do school not school camps, but they were camps and
Speaker 2: it was a year long program and we would give
Speaker 2: them these wonderful women who were there to support them,
Speaker 2: to guide them, to be their cheerleader, and to give guidance.
Speaker 2: Many of the young women that we worked with didn't
Speaker 2: have there were identified as not having a strong female
Speaker 2: role model in their lives, some in jail.
Speaker 1: As we mentioned, how did you how did you find
Speaker 1: the kids that you wanted to get on the program?
Speaker 2: So docks and facts.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you literally out of the education system and
Speaker 1: starting this business.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so it was a full Yeah. They were
Speaker 2: hardcore kids, especially on camp. Lots of fun stories. What
Speaker 2: ages thirteen to eighteen? I thought I'd stick with the
Speaker 2: ages that I knew, which was high school. Yeah, age. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It give us examples a game without identifying the kid,
Speaker 1: but the examples where you look back and think, yeah,
Speaker 1: we worked, we made the difference.
Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many. What they would do is they
Speaker 2: would come to us at the very beginning of camp.
Speaker 2: We'd have four day camps and they would literally be
Speaker 2: walking in and none of them knew each other, or
Speaker 2: some did, and they'd be like, all right, who's going
Speaker 2: to be in my crew, Who's who don't want, I
Speaker 2: don't like, and who's going to give me grief? And
Speaker 2: of course you got them all in cabins together, and
Speaker 2: they would the first day they'd be a bit, you know,
Speaker 2: testing us out, and then the second second day they
Speaker 2: would learn to because they didn't trust anyone. They're like,
Speaker 2: why you I keep saying to me, why are you
Speaker 2: being so nice to me? Because they thought you had
Speaker 2: some sort of ulterior motive. A lot of them have
Speaker 2: groomed a lot of them. You know, bedtime's not safe,
Speaker 2: so nighttime duty, which I always do.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people who have been victims
Speaker 1: of childhood sexual abuse and see the same thing. Why
Speaker 1: anyone that's nice to me is trying to take something
Speaker 1: from me? And that's what they used to I know,
Speaker 1: that's a horrible thing that's implanted in their mind by
Speaker 1: these predators, and.
Speaker 2: That will always stick to me. And then once they realized,
Speaker 2: you know, by day three, that we're actually literally there
Speaker 2: is no ulterior motive, that we're literally there to support.
Speaker 2: And they're used to having caseworkers as well, which and
Speaker 2: when they find out that their mentors of volunteers, they're like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1: Okay, and what type of people were volunteering to be
Speaker 1: mentors and role models.
Speaker 2: Most of the corporate women, so corporate women who may
Speaker 2: may not have had their own children, who didn't feel
Speaker 2: like they were had that connection to community. I mean
Speaker 2: a lot of them were mums as well, but from
Speaker 2: corporate world where they felt like, oh, you know, cutthroat
Speaker 2: had a lot of lawyers and bankers and things like
Speaker 2: that where they felt, you know, I'm not really contributing
Speaker 2: to the community.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand the attraction to helping out like that.
Speaker 2: A very competent women as well. We obviously gave them
Speaker 2: extensive training, you know, so that they were equipped because
Speaker 2: they're pretty hardcore kids. But also again they would buck
Speaker 2: up and you know, I had them in camps, you know,
Speaker 2: setting curtains on fire, and I learned what huffing was
Speaker 2: for the first time. I had no idea what huffing was.
Speaker 2: Like the whole room could have died because they all
Speaker 2: decided to huff. You know that they're for anyone who
Speaker 2: doesn't know what huffing is, it's breathing in asphyxiating toxins
Speaker 2: from an aerosol can.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So they definitely kept us on our toes.
Speaker 1: And what was the reward and punishments? Like how did
Speaker 1: you manage that? Like, I know, yeah, I'm thinking if
Speaker 1: it's a boys camp, the men be staying the hearing
Speaker 1: for it without laying a hand on them. But the threat,
Speaker 1: but with girls can be harder because girls sometimes they
Speaker 1: don't respond to the threat of violence, so they just
Speaker 1: throw it, throw it back at you. So what how
Speaker 1: did you control them?
Speaker 2: I think just having boundaries, really really strong boundaries for
Speaker 2: them and just again you know that your behavior is
Speaker 2: not you not happy with your behavior, pulling them aside
Speaker 2: and just knowing that they are here, they're you know,
Speaker 2: the severe trauma and stuff like that, and so the
Speaker 2: mentors stepped in and you know, were there to support
Speaker 2: and guide them. But yeah, we had some we had
Speaker 2: some fun times. We had a great team that I
Speaker 2: worked with and we would would call it seamless, you
Speaker 2: know when there was everything was going to ship. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's seamless. I just had this wonderful team. You know
Speaker 2: a lot of them who worked in frontline sees and
Speaker 2: Ambulance Australia and so I had some really tough team
Speaker 2: leaders who so each of each of them had the
Speaker 2: girls that we had had a mentor and then they
Speaker 2: then the mental a team leader and these were pretty
Speaker 2: one from the army as well. So we had some
Speaker 2: pretty tough Yeah. So I think it.
Speaker 1: Was just.
Speaker 2: Keeping them busy. It was really really important to keep
Speaker 2: them busy so that they couldn't you know escape, yeah, literally, yeah,
Speaker 2: we did have one try once, but the campside where
Speaker 2: we were out is quite remote, so it wasn't really
Speaker 2: far for them to go.
Speaker 1: What sort of changes did you see in the girls
Speaker 1: during these programs?
Speaker 2: It was transformational by the end of day four really yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: where they just we just immersed them in fun. We
Speaker 2: would do you know, a whole lot of skit night,
Speaker 2: like the teams would do dance routines like things like that.
Speaker 2: But you know, we had a corporate challenge that came
Speaker 2: out and did activities with them, and then we would
Speaker 2: have some motivational speakers, but ones that had had lived experience,
Speaker 2: who've turned their lives around. And so by the end
Speaker 2: of the four days, they just love It's like a
Speaker 2: love fest where they all just love each other, that
Speaker 2: they love their mentors and they're really really excited for
Speaker 2: the twelve months ahead.
Speaker 1: Okay, so the four days is okay, this is what
Speaker 1: so offer. Let them have a taste, and then you've
Speaker 1: got the twelve twelve month program continues on what sort
Speaker 1: of things do you do with them. Maybe that twelve month.
Speaker 2: Period cyber Safety Body Image consent a lot of setting
Speaker 2: goals and achieving them. So we'd get a lot of
Speaker 2: Olympians out who would talk about goals and things like
Speaker 2: that to motivate them. So but a lot of keeping
Speaker 2: them busy. But we had just an amazing, amazing response
Speaker 2: from that program.
Speaker 1: And where did you take the kids from after the
Speaker 1: four days and the ongoing stuff? Where were the.
Speaker 2: Kids we would have We would have activities, so we
Speaker 2: do their educational part in the morning, and then we'd
Speaker 2: do something like in the afternoon like rock climbing or
Speaker 2: Luna parkles, you know, something to get them there. Look,
Speaker 2: that was the lure to get them there to do
Speaker 2: something fun because there's a lot of the young women
Speaker 2: just didn't have you know, a lot of them had
Speaker 2: not even been over the Harbor Bridge.
Speaker 1: Before and that was their home environments just didn't provide
Speaker 1: the things that you were providing.
Speaker 2: So at the end of camp we would get a
Speaker 2: lot of disclosures. So obviously, being mandatory reporters, we have
Speaker 2: to have to report that. So a lot of as
Speaker 2: I said, most of the girls came from dogs and facts.
Speaker 2: But then there was some. I had one who was
Speaker 2: part of and her sister had gone through the program.
Speaker 2: One of fourteen children all from mum and dad, same
Speaker 2: mum and dad, and I had to get them all removed,
Speaker 2: like it was just the whole whole family removed. So
Speaker 2: that didn't go well because she had disclosed what was
Speaker 2: going on. So married. I mean, we had some really
Speaker 2: loving parents, but we had young cares as well, so
Speaker 2: young some young women who were caring for their parents
Speaker 2: who had mental illness.
Speaker 1: See, this is a side of life unless the impacts
Speaker 1: on you personally, you don't even think about, Like there
Speaker 1: would be kids out there looking after their parents, whether
Speaker 1: it's drug dependency, alcohol or mental health.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or looking after siblings as well. Once where they
Speaker 2: just mum's not quite with it and it's been on
Speaker 2: a vender and is now asleep for three days, you know,
Speaker 2: and they're going through cupboards trying to find food.
Speaker 1: And it is quite often and I don't know what's
Speaker 1: in our makeup the boys compared to the girls, but
Speaker 1: these quite often the girls that take up that responsibility,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, But yeah, the mentors played a really they
Speaker 2: play a really integral part in it. Our mentors are
Speaker 2: just incredible.
Speaker 1: When they finish the program, do they get any acknowledgments
Speaker 1: or is there any ongoing communications or contacts that you
Speaker 1: have with them?
Speaker 2: So ninety percent of in terms of sisted a sister,
Speaker 2: ninety percent of our mentors continue to support them beyond
Speaker 2: the program. And that was a longitudinal study that we
Speaker 2: did after ten years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, Well that says something, doesn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everyone that connections here, that's strong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on Facebook with half of them as well,
Speaker 2: like those hundreds of them, So.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get a sense of how busy you are.
Speaker 1: That would be part of it. So how many young
Speaker 1: girls have gone through the program?
Speaker 2: Sister to Sister was about three hundred that went through
Speaker 2: because we don't have small groups of twenty five, so
Speaker 2: there'd be twenty five mentors, twenty five mantees and then
Speaker 2: a team of sort of ten so that was enough
Speaker 2: for a camp to manage because they were tough cases.
Speaker 2: And then we'd have sykes. But that was Sydney and
Speaker 2: Victoria right that we ran it. We ran it out
Speaker 2: in Warriby area in western Sydney where there was a
Speaker 2: lot of need. So yes, we've done Sydney, Victoria.
Speaker 1: And with that many girls going through over that long period.
Speaker 1: Have you seen the success from it? And the success
Speaker 1: give us a couple of success to what.
Speaker 2: The best thing? They become great mothers. You can see
Speaker 2: them that they've become great mothers and gone on to
Speaker 2: university and or you know, got jobs, you know, didn't
Speaker 2: end up jail. Yeah, so there's lots of varying degrees,
Speaker 2: but the thing that touches my heart is that they've
Speaker 2: gone on to be very good mothers.
Speaker 1: And that's important because you like a good mother, a
Speaker 1: good father as well, we should should say, but like
Speaker 1: a good mother can be so grounding for the family.
Speaker 2: We do a lot around you know, relationships, what are
Speaker 2: the red flags of a bad relationship good relationship? And
Speaker 2: that's kind of carried on to the Warrior women as well.
Speaker 2: It's just more of a maturer age group.
Speaker 1: So what was the evolution to warrior women.
Speaker 2: After seventeen years? It was spurred on by Eden's death.
Speaker 2: After seventeen years, I was running that I wanted to
Speaker 2: do obviously that entrepreneurial spark, but I had so many
Speaker 2: girls coming into the office. Used to have an office
Speaker 2: up here on Elizabeth Street for seventeen years, and the girls,
Speaker 2: once they got to eighteen, would come in and they'd
Speaker 2: want help with stuff, and they'd come unannounced all the time.
Speaker 2: Can you help me with a tax piled? Now?
Speaker 1: Can you help me with this?
Speaker 2: I've just been you know, foster care ended. I've just
Speaker 2: turned eighteen. So I always knew that gap was there,
Speaker 2: But then I did a bit of research and it
Speaker 2: is one of the most unserved gaps apart from vulnerability
Speaker 2: of older women at fifty five becoming close to being homeless,
Speaker 2: but one of the most underserved gaps. And so I
Speaker 2: obviously knew that I knew how to run a mentor,
Speaker 2: so started an all mature mentoring program.
Speaker 1: So this is where they might be in home care,
Speaker 1: foster care or whatever. They turn eight And you said,
Speaker 1: it's gone the twenty twenty one now, But okay, we've
Speaker 1: done all weekend for you. You've got all your life skills now,
Speaker 1: regardless of what your life skills are, and we turf
Speaker 1: you out and then they end up the homeless or
Speaker 1: dig something, all in prison invariably. So okay, so you
Speaker 1: worried a woman, just how do you fund these programs?
Speaker 2: A lot of writing grants and doing fundraising events and
Speaker 2: things like that, so that I spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time doing that.
Speaker 1: I would imagine you'd have to, but I would hope
Speaker 1: with the type of program that the money people could
Speaker 1: see the sense in them and we come back down
Speaker 1: to monetary considerations. How much it is to keep these
Speaker 1: kids in custody exactly compared to what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, we based the program on the self
Speaker 2: determination theory, which is really so I do a lot
Speaker 2: of evidence research around it, and so we do the
Speaker 2: connection to community, which is something that they're missing. And
Speaker 2: then all the life skills the way I describe it,
Speaker 2: every skill that I wish I learned when I left
Speaker 2: home at eighteen, and then and then mental health support.
Speaker 2: So we do all three of those, and we have
Speaker 2: a real strong focus on financial literacy because one of
Speaker 2: the fastest growing cohorts in Australia is women fifty five
Speaker 2: who you know, maybe going through divorce and becoming close
Speaker 2: to homelessness. So we've got a real housing crisis. As
Speaker 2: you know, you do for these women and what I
Speaker 2: don't want them to do is to become one of
Speaker 2: those statistics.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to educate them financial independence.
Speaker 2: And I mean if they know how to manage them.
Speaker 2: A lot of them may come to us and say,
Speaker 2: oh I let someone else manage that. No, and we
Speaker 2: teach them about the red flags of financial abuse. It
Speaker 2: is a bit hard sometimes to get them excited about
Speaker 2: tax and super because yeah, let's face it, I don't
Speaker 2: get excited about that either.
Speaker 1: No one likes likes tax and they're super. Well, it's
Speaker 1: not until you get older. Will you think they were
Speaker 1: right when they told you to sign those forms? Yeah? Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so we're trying to teach them all the
Speaker 2: live skills to be able to stand on their own
Speaker 2: two feet. But the number one thing, and going back
Speaker 2: to what you said before, is education or employment. So
Speaker 2: we're very very much around, you know, helping them get
Speaker 2: entry level. We've partnered with Laureal Care Stars, so we
Speaker 2: have really strong affiliations with Westpac who do a lot
Speaker 2: of our financial literacy sessions as well, so really trying
Speaker 2: to partner with them and Optics as well. The girls
Speaker 2: get each of them get a twelve month subscription free
Speaker 2: for their phone so that they can keep connected with
Speaker 2: their mentors because you know, sometimes they're alway, I'm out
Speaker 2: of credit and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Yes I know the type. But yeah, education, employment, and
Speaker 1: to me it's a lot about self esteem too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's what education can bring. And we don't all
Speaker 1: have to be university graduates, but just have a level
Speaker 1: of education that you feel comfortable in conversing and doing
Speaker 1: all the things that you need to do.
Speaker 2: We've got one young woman who grew up in out
Speaker 2: of home care and an Indigenous girl, beautiful girl nominated
Speaker 2: by her school teacher and who's not nominated quite a
Speaker 2: few the young ones to our program, and she is
Speaker 2: now studying criminology wow Canberra University and we got her
Speaker 2: a scholarship to university. How fantastics are So that's just one,
Speaker 2: just one of the menu. Because they are older, we've
Speaker 2: got more of a success rate. Like with the sister
Speaker 2: and sister it was more keeping them on on the track,
Speaker 2: keeping them at school, whereas now it's you know, what
Speaker 2: are you doing for a job, because you know, if
Speaker 2: they do find themselves in situations of coercive control or
Speaker 2: financial abuse or end up having to leave a situation
Speaker 2: with children that they know, they've got that confidence in
Speaker 2: themselves that they can hold down a job, they've got
Speaker 2: an education and you know, be able to carry themselves.
Speaker 1: I hate saying that. You see the lot where women
Speaker 1: are trapped for a variety of reasons in relationships or
Speaker 1: in circumstances that they haven't got the confidence or the
Speaker 1: financial backing to actually step away and look after him,
Speaker 1: look after themselves and step away from something that's a
Speaker 1: bit toxic. So all all good stuff. How how do
Speaker 1: you identify the people for warrior women?
Speaker 2: So there a lot of self nomination. By the way,
Speaker 2: thank you. I I've got a tattoo of it on
Speaker 2: my leg just recently. So that's commitment, right, full commitment
Speaker 2: will kill me? Said no tattoos, eating had a lot
Speaker 2: of tattoos, said don't you dare get one? So that
Speaker 2: I've just the cats out of the bag now.
Speaker 3: So warrior women, okay, So yeah, casework is still a
Speaker 3: lot of self nominated Or we have a partnership now
Speaker 3: with the University of Western Sydney, and so there's young
Speaker 3: women who who are at risk of falling dropping out
Speaker 3: of university who've started university, but I have still going
Speaker 3: through the trauma of their childhood.
Speaker 2: So trying to Headspace. A lot of them through Headspace,
Speaker 2: different other services that we've connected with. So yeah, it
Speaker 2: really ver.
Speaker 1: You talked about the Indigenous girl that's now studying criminology.
Speaker 1: What are some other examples you've gotten no Warrior Women,
Speaker 1: that someone that's come in and their life for all
Speaker 1: intents and purpose, heading in the wrong direction and managed
Speaker 1: to turn it around.
Speaker 2: I think the ones with severe mental health issues. And
Speaker 2: when I say severe like suicidal ideation and things like that.
Speaker 2: So I think the giving them the opportunity to get
Speaker 2: therapy around that. We have some amazing therapists during our
Speaker 2: during the course. So obviously it's all about education and
Speaker 2: we got that pillar of mental health is helping them
Speaker 2: to manage those feelings and thoughts and that might impede
Speaker 2: on them being able to hold down a job or
Speaker 2: study or things like that. So I think so there's
Speaker 2: a lot of.
Speaker 1: That mental health treatment comes into play through Warrior Women.
Speaker 1: You have psychologists on board.
Speaker 2: We we do have psychologists. We also link them into
Speaker 2: a whole range of services as well, so we were
Speaker 2: a link in the chain.
Speaker 1: Because that's the other thing. People don't know what services
Speaker 1: are available to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot out there are varying ones. A
Speaker 2: lot of the social entrepreneurs I know who've started them
Speaker 2: up and or running them. So it's really about educating.
Speaker 2: That's what we do at the very beginning of the
Speaker 2: program is we go these are the services that you use,
Speaker 2: and we train the mentors, like we're literally in the
Speaker 2: process of training the mentors. They just did lifeline training
Speaker 2: on Saturday, and we give them all the resources. Should
Speaker 2: their mental ring them up, you know, God knows what
Speaker 2: hour and say all right, these are the services you
Speaker 2: need to ring because we want them to become independent,
Speaker 2: we want them to be able to you know, but
Speaker 2: we're there to support them. But the good thing about
Speaker 2: Warrior Woman is we've just gone national, which is amazing.
Speaker 1: So we've got to start off South Our.
Speaker 2: Sydney, Greater Sydney and then we branched out to Newcastle
Speaker 2: last year and so now we're going Nashville, which is fantastic.
Speaker 1: And if someone wants to get to get involved or
Speaker 1: reach out or just find out what it's about, how
Speaker 1: do they find you.
Speaker 2: From our website, so Warrior Women or social media, just
Speaker 2: follow us on social media. That's what a lot of
Speaker 2: the young ones do want to insta, but it's Worriorwoman
Speaker 2: dot org dot are you yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And so how long has that been running? For me?
Speaker 2: Six years? I started in COVID February twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Great timing, don't mention those years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was great timing. So yeah, So we've been
Speaker 2: running the programs for six years and we've had some
Speaker 2: really big philanthropists back us, which which has been fat like.
Speaker 2: It's still a hard slot getting funding. So if there's
Speaker 2: any philanthropists out there listening, we still need lots of money.
Speaker 1: Were on a true crime podcast. Let's let's get it,
Speaker 1: get it.
Speaker 2: The more money, the more money we have, the more girls.
Speaker 2: It's three thousand dollars per girl to put them through
Speaker 2: the programs. So the more money we have, the more
Speaker 2: girls we can help.
Speaker 1: And you see, you see the benefits at the end
Speaker 1: of it. You've been doing it six years now, so
Speaker 1: you were the same people go through the.
Speaker 2: Wed We have young women that come back as in
Speaker 2: a leadership role called Kindred Warriors. And we had this amazing,
Speaker 2: amazing young woman who could not live at home and
Speaker 2: I met her in a refuge in the Northern Beaches
Speaker 2: and she she was just recently on TV for US.
Speaker 2: She had was living with a caseworker and she she
Speaker 2: was actually studying law. So she was very smart, but
Speaker 2: she could not live at home because of a lot
Speaker 2: of circumstances outside of her control, and so she was
Speaker 2: able to she was nominated for the program. So I
Speaker 2: remember going out to this youth service. It was a crisis,
Speaker 2: she was living there. And she has just gone on
Speaker 2: strength and strength and strength. She's gone on to study
Speaker 2: overseas exchange student for her studies in Canada, and she's
Speaker 2: now come back as this extraordinary young leader who is
Speaker 2: just rounding up all the young women and just yeah,
Speaker 2: we just did. We've done some incredible fund raises and
Speaker 2: she when she speaks, you can hear a pin drop.
Speaker 1: Just incredible, impressive, impressive people to go.
Speaker 2: From living at a refuge to finishing a law degree,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 1: Think of the changes that makes exponentially like one person,
Speaker 1: but now she's influencing other people. And the ripple effect
Speaker 1: of getting someone's life in the right direction, or the
Speaker 1: alternative is we just don't worry about it. And when
Speaker 1: they fall feil law, we're going to lock them up
Speaker 1: and put them inside and spend a great deal of
Speaker 1: money and have them come out and do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's impressive and good on you for doing it. Do
Speaker 1: the politicians support it? Like I know, the breakfast at
Speaker 1: State Palm, You've got an invite there, so they're they're listening.
Speaker 1: But you're getting the support that you think people fully
Speaker 1: understand the benefits of what could be done.
Speaker 2: There's more work to be done. I've got my local politician, spender,
Speaker 2: Tanya Pli has been a great supporter of us as well,
Speaker 2: especially with sister did A sister as well, so she
Speaker 2: she's and then I've got a friend who ran for
Speaker 2: the House of Representatives, Savannah Peek, who's not well known,
Speaker 2: but she will be. She could be prime insturun day.
Speaker 2: So yeah. So so getting there.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, getting getting the message out yeah okay. So
Speaker 1: in your not so busy life and I'm being sarcastic there,
Speaker 1: extremely busy. How did you find yourself on the Serious
Speaker 1: Offenders Review Board?
Speaker 2: Well, I was looking up board jobs because I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm fifty five now. I was like, I probably should
Speaker 2: start because I'm not busy enough. Start looking at you know,
Speaker 2: maybe getting on some Actually that's what it was. I
Speaker 2: applied for the New South Wales Women's Boward and they
Speaker 2: said they actually wrote back to me and said, very impressive.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, working with women and girls. But
Speaker 2: you know, the people that we ended up taking are
Speaker 2: on at least two or three boards and I don't
Speaker 2: even been on my board for that long. So I thought,
Speaker 2: oh okay, and they recommended that I actually you could
Speaker 2: do a board search and you get these alerts when
Speaker 2: they come up, and a lot of them are for
Speaker 2: things that I wasn't that interested or wouldn't have benefited given,
Speaker 2: you know, it didn't really interest me. And then Serious
Speaker 2: Review Council came up and I was like, hell, yeah.
Speaker 1: So tell tell people what that is. Those that might
Speaker 1: know I obviously know, but you tell people.
Speaker 2: So the Serious Offender's Review Council is an independent board
Speaker 2: that gives advice to corrections and the bail Board. Basically
Speaker 2: we're governed by the Minister who will appointed us all
Speaker 2: and there's that's made up of three parts. We've got
Speaker 2: judicial staff which are on the committee and they are
Speaker 2: people who've been on the bench basically or still on
Speaker 2: the bench or but most of them are retired judges.
Speaker 2: And then we've got the community group, which is where
Speaker 2: I fall under. And then we've got another correctional staff
Speaker 2: or could be current correctional staff or which have been
Speaker 2: appointed by the Commissioner and stuff like that. So there's
Speaker 2: three types of people that are on the board. Our
Speaker 2: job is to obviously give that independent advice to them
Speaker 2: as to the classifications and recommendations of inmates and to
Speaker 2: basically to see whether they're behaving, whether they're heading towards
Speaker 2: you know, getting out on parole, should they their parole
Speaker 2: period be coming up soon, so things like so we
Speaker 2: interview them. We have been out to quite a few
Speaker 2: jails to meet them.
Speaker 1: And without identifying the crime or the person because I
Speaker 1: imagine you would have been speaking to some notorious people.
Speaker 1: How was it sitting down actually speaking speaking to them
Speaker 1: and knowing the crimes that they've committed just from a
Speaker 1: personal point of view?
Speaker 2: First of all, Yeah, look, sometimes their persona doesn't match
Speaker 2: your perception of what have done as a crime without
Speaker 2: going into detail, but you know, you can met I've
Speaker 2: met serraculars, I've met matters, I've met people have been
Speaker 2: part of terrorism and stuff like that. And then yeah,
Speaker 2: most of them men, but I've learned. I learned what
Speaker 2: a ship is. Yeah, you know, I thought it. I
Speaker 2: thought actually my very first time, I thought that I
Speaker 2: was going to they were going to be in shackles
Speaker 2: for some reason. But no, not at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think that confronts a lot of people
Speaker 1: in prison, like people think of prison, Aka, well they're
Speaker 1: behind the bars now when you're walking around in prison,
Speaker 1: you up, Sorry, I didn't mean the bump in your
Speaker 1: killer or whatever. Yeah, it would have been an experience
Speaker 1: for you, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know you say that the type of crimes
Speaker 1: you know, these people have committed, and then the persona
Speaker 1: they're put in across. That's scary in itself, isn't it
Speaker 1: Because you want really bad people to look like really
Speaker 1: bad people. Yes, and some of them, some of them
Speaker 1: fit the stereotype and they could be cast very much
Speaker 1: in their crime. But other you look and think, okay,
Speaker 1: what crime did you commit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, psychopaths and sociopaths, which is grouped antisocial behavior.
Speaker 2: They're very very manipulative, so some of them can be
Speaker 2: very charming. Yeah, they're obviously talking to us as well,
Speaker 2: knowing that we're going to make recommendations. So they're kind of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you'd have to go in there because they
Speaker 1: are manipulative or they can be, and the charm they
Speaker 1: can put that on too, so you would have to
Speaker 1: be really have your guards up and alert of what's
Speaker 1: going on here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the fascinating part for me because obviously the
Speaker 2: judicial staff are very well adverse to the actual sentencing
Speaker 2: part of it. The correctional staff are very much helpful
Speaker 2: in you know, okay they need to do, say, for example,
Speaker 2: violent offenders therapeutic program. There's only certain jails that offer
Speaker 2: that course, so they're really helpful in that way. And
Speaker 2: then for me, it was the psyche behind reading the
Speaker 2: psychology reports and you know, I'm fascinated, which is why
Speaker 2: I love your podcast. Fascinated with human behavior.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it, Just to.
Speaker 2: See what made them? What was it? And you know
Speaker 2: a lot of childhood abuse, you know, no, you know,
Speaker 2: guessing there and a lot of mental health issues as well,
Speaker 2: so fascinating stuff. But yeah, it's the human behavior that
Speaker 2: I really fascinated me the most as to you know,
Speaker 2: what made you do this crime?
Speaker 1: In your conversations with them, again without going into too
Speaker 1: much detail, but was part of it them acknowledging their
Speaker 1: crime to you and this is how I've changed. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't even recognize the person I was twenty years
Speaker 1: ago when I committed this horrendous crime. What sort of
Speaker 1: stuff comes out.
Speaker 2: Let's just say, AG's a rarity. From my experience. I think. Look,
Speaker 2: I think there would be people who are completely remorse.
Speaker 2: But you know, that's another thing that I is. You know,
Speaker 2: I do a lot of research on not acissistic personality
Speaker 2: disorder and all of that, and to see whether they've
Speaker 2: got that remorse. A lot of them just want to
Speaker 2: get out of there, to be honest, they just want
Speaker 2: to get They just want to get it over and
Speaker 2: done with. We don't have that long to chat to them.
Speaker 2: But I think there's ones that do want to get
Speaker 2: on the straight and narrow, you know, where we have
Speaker 2: to say to them, Like this ex judge that was
Speaker 2: on the community. She was amazing, much more experienced than me,
Speaker 2: and she would say, you know, you want to get
Speaker 2: out of jail, mate, but you've you know, you've got
Speaker 2: fifty two offenses that you've done in the last twelve months.
Speaker 2: So a younger guy, so you know, those things like
Speaker 2: that but you check their urines as.
Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, for drugs or yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all part of it as well, to see
Speaker 2: whether they've been on the straight and narrow and that
Speaker 2: if they haven't, then that's a conversation that we have
Speaker 2: with them as well. So it's yeah, it's a.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big, big role you're playing when you're
Speaker 1: talking someone's someone's freedom. I always felt you felt the
Speaker 1: pressure of it. As a police officer. You had the
Speaker 1: power to arrest someone and impact on their life. What
Speaker 1: you're doing there. Were you conflicted at all because what
Speaker 1: you've been through in your own family? Was that? Were
Speaker 1: you the two sides of you? Or did that make
Speaker 1: you better at doing that job.
Speaker 2: I would always think about the victims, yeah, always, And
Speaker 2: we have to read thousands and thousands of pages and
Speaker 2: it wasn't something that you could kind of just skim
Speaker 2: through because I felt like, there's victims.
Speaker 1: And this is the impact that's had on the victims. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: and the victims had had a place there like.
Speaker 2: The not so much they were listed, but yeah, they're not.
Speaker 1: A place there. But did you have documentation of what
Speaker 1: the victims are feeling?
Speaker 2: No? No, no, we didn't happen to have that at all,
Speaker 2: but it was very much the what it happened. Yes, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And also another thing that was really really interesting is
Speaker 2: that we got to see whether they had visitors. You know,
Speaker 2: there's some in there who've been there for a very
Speaker 2: long time and some that don't want to get out,
Speaker 2: and then you have a look at their applications and
Speaker 2: if they've not had a visitor visit them in twenty
Speaker 2: six years.
Speaker 1: People think this is strange, but I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: that people get institutionalized to the point where jail is
Speaker 1: their life. They're a big man in jail, have they
Speaker 1: got the reputation, or it could be a woman in jail,
Speaker 1: and they've got their reputation, they've got their standing within
Speaker 1: that community. Then they get let out and they're just
Speaker 1: this homeless person that no one really knows or cares.
Speaker 1: And you're not the guy that survived twenty years and
Speaker 1: the toughest jail. That type of thing. So a lot
Speaker 1: of that, Yeah, it's sad, isn't It's well, it's depending
Speaker 1: on the crime they commit. I have gone that soft,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you do see that the people that is
Speaker 1: their world that they know, and the point that you
Speaker 1: made about how many visitors. I think it's in the
Speaker 1: Nordic countries where they look after the prisoner's families, as
Speaker 1: strange as it sounds, make a big effort to keep
Speaker 1: the prisoners in contact with their families and actually help
Speaker 1: out the families why someone's inside, because they've worked out
Speaker 1: that for someone the chances of not reoffending if you've
Speaker 1: got a family to come back to that you're still
Speaker 1: part of and the family's going well, less likely that
Speaker 1: you're going to end up back in prison. Now perfect sense,
Speaker 1: But other people might argue it's counterintuitive what you're looking
Speaker 1: after the family of someone that's committed to offense who's
Speaker 1: in jail. But what most people don't understand, or they
Speaker 1: understand it's not that complicated, but I don't think appreciate,
Speaker 1: is that most people in jail, say ninety five percent,
Speaker 1: will get out of prison, Like, there's not that many
Speaker 1: people in there for life or that die in jail.
Speaker 1: So what we create in there, we're going to release
Speaker 1: back in the society. And so it's in now interest
Speaker 1: to have a structure for them when they get out
Speaker 1: get out of prison.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that's one thing that like I said, before,
Speaker 2: you know, before everything happened and doing this work, I
Speaker 2: was very much you know, throw them in, lock away
Speaker 2: the key and let them stay there forever. So but
Speaker 2: it's they get out.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that you acknowledge that. Like I didn't
Speaker 1: think a lot about what happened in prison when I
Speaker 1: was in the cops, Like, yeah, that my job was
Speaker 1: they're in prison, who cares? But speaking to people that
Speaker 1: have been in prison and getting to know them quite
Speaker 1: well since I've left the police, it's given me a
Speaker 1: greade of understanding of the importance of what goes in there.
Speaker 1: And it's another way of fighting crime, like the stuff
Speaker 1: that you're doing preventing it. I think we can really
Speaker 1: make a difference in crime how we treat people in prisons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's conflicting. There's going to be people
Speaker 2: who have really conflicting and you know, and I'm saying
Speaker 2: this from a homicide survivor, Yeah, well that's right. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I think it's well, do we want them
Speaker 2: to reoffend? No, just do I want anyone this had
Speaker 2: to happen to any other anyone else's family knows.
Speaker 1: That's that's the point. That's the point we're trying to
Speaker 1: make so if anyone's going you two idiots, you're gone soft. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they should be in there breaking rocks and eating eating bread.
Speaker 1: We want less victims. If there's less criminal, there's less chriminally,
Speaker 1: But that's the way that we look at it.
Speaker 2: And they've got that in the Hunter Jail, they've got
Speaker 2: the pod this is you were part of this, Yeah,
Speaker 2: breaking badness.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Macquarie Correctional Center the work. When that was the
Speaker 1: prison I went to. I was really impressed by, really
Speaker 1: impressed by I know in the Hunter Valley that they're
Speaker 1: doing the same thing. I just see really as a
Speaker 1: no brainer. And the interesting thing is, because I've got
Speaker 1: to speak to a lot of the inmates in there
Speaker 1: in the time that if I spent in there, they
Speaker 1: know that jarl won't work for everyone. They're saying, look,
Speaker 1: some people take the piss. If you put them in
Speaker 1: this shold, they'll play the system getting here and it's
Speaker 1: not going to change them at all. But a large
Speaker 1: percentage of them will buy into what they were trying
Speaker 1: to do there, making them have the skills where they
Speaker 1: could walk out of prison and integrate back into society better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had a lot who wanted to be put there. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was the preferred prison for them to go to
Speaker 2: because apparently they you know from watching your show that
Speaker 2: you did, is that they are treated better than well,
Speaker 2: that's coming from their mouths. And also they yeah, like
Speaker 2: you know, and your stuff up once and you're out.
Speaker 1: That's right. And I learned so much doing that podcast
Speaker 1: series and spending time in the prison.
Speaker 2: Then it was fascinating.
Speaker 1: I found that it was fascinating too, and it really
Speaker 1: opened my eyes up up to things that you put
Speaker 1: them in a let's call it a traditional prison, and
Speaker 1: this is what the inmate that's a saying. You open
Speaker 1: that cell door, you walk out in the yard, you're
Speaker 1: going to bridge up. You don't know whether you're going
Speaker 1: to be you're going to come back in the live
Speaker 1: or in one piece. You don't know what was going
Speaker 1: to happen. And speaking to some of the prisoners in
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center, and there were some heavy people in there,
Speaker 1: like yeah, it wasn't cherry picked all the easy prisoners
Speaker 1: that will just put them in.
Speaker 2: This maximum Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: We're not all sitting there singing kumbai ah, but they're
Speaker 1: in there and they said, look, we don't need to
Speaker 1: do that in this place, like if your stuff up
Speaker 1: and the other thing I found really interesting and this
Speaker 1: was the psychology of it that was explained to me
Speaker 1: when I came in there, that they give them rewards
Speaker 1: up front. So they got the rewards up front, and
Speaker 1: if they misbehave, they lose their rewards. Now, normally you
Speaker 1: go in the jarl and you start with nothing, but
Speaker 1: if you behave yourself and you're a good boy for
Speaker 1: six months, you'll get a TV or yeah. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: build up here. They come in. The opportunities are endless.
Speaker 1: They can study, so they've got stuff to lose. Rather
Speaker 1: than they study, they work. They all live in a
Speaker 1: dorm and the dorm had I think thirty or so
Speaker 1: prisoners in the dorm. I went maximum security. I thought,
Speaker 1: that's going to be a blood bath in there, Like
Speaker 1: you know, you're not putting them in the cells. Know,
Speaker 1: they're all within this dorm. And they had a yard
Speaker 1: out the back of the dorm where it had a
Speaker 1: cage over it. Like the security was all still very
Speaker 1: much intact, but they could sit outside to nine o'clock
Speaker 1: and they had some boxing equipment there, punching bag barbecue
Speaker 1: and they could actually and some of the inmates said,
Speaker 1: this is the first time I've been able to see
Speaker 1: stars or a night sky. And little things like that.
Speaker 1: They keep them in contact with their families. They get
Speaker 1: more access to that education work, and it gives them
Speaker 1: a sense of purpose. And the other thing that came
Speaker 1: across was the respect that the corrective services officers shows
Speaker 1: to the inmates, and the inmates give that back in return. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in most prisons that's frowned upon. You. You know, it's
Speaker 1: blue or green, you're one or one or the other,
Speaker 1: and you don't don't do that.
Speaker 2: But another scan Scandinavian model was it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it was based on things that they've tried
Speaker 1: over there, so it hadn't got to the point where
Speaker 1: we see what the recidivism results are. I don't think
Speaker 1: they've got all the research data available yet. I might
Speaker 1: be naive to this, but I don't think I'm that
Speaker 1: naive when I'm talking to people people in prison, and
Speaker 1: there were so many people in there that I could
Speaker 1: see the benefits from that type of custodial sentence and
Speaker 1: the benefits for them getting out. It wasn't funny. So
Speaker 1: hopefully they will buy into that.
Speaker 2: Hopefully in time we'll be able to see whether that
Speaker 2: model works.
Speaker 1: Because you talk about the classification, was that part of
Speaker 1: you're on the board as well that you have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if they behave themselves just putting it for
Speaker 2: lack of better words, you know, there would be recommendations
Speaker 2: and there were certain periods of time where they were eligible,
Speaker 2: and so we would have a look at there and
Speaker 2: make recommendations to the commission. We'd meet with the Commissioner
Speaker 2: and then we'd make recommendations to the Minister and you
Speaker 2: know him we would say yes or no depending on
Speaker 2: the recommendation. But it was sometimes that there is a
Speaker 2: time period where they obviously you know, if there unsentenced,
Speaker 2: then they go to sentenced and then you know they
Speaker 2: so it's based on behavior, whether there's been any incidences,
Speaker 2: the urines, you know, things like that. But yeah, there
Speaker 2: is a time frame for them to move down and
Speaker 2: then they can eventually once they get to like you said,
Speaker 2: Another thing too is you know, if they hold down
Speaker 2: a job, how they're going with their job. Have they
Speaker 2: been fired from their job? They don't earn very much,
Speaker 2: but it's you know, they have they done that? And
Speaker 2: also you know, have they done their courses, because they
Speaker 2: really can't leave. They can't get out on parole unless
Speaker 2: they've done their and their particular courses. And so the
Speaker 2: salkboard is very much around recommending what courses that they need,
Speaker 2: and some of them get suspended from them. And one
Speaker 2: day they had a whole lot of them that had
Speaker 2: been suspended from for whatever weren't able to finish it.
Speaker 2: But they can't get out basically, and that's we don't.
Speaker 2: They have to do these courses. So there is an
Speaker 2: education before we.
Speaker 1: See and we say and people go, oh, yeah, but
Speaker 1: it fails. Yeah, it might fail, and it might be
Speaker 1: fifty percent that doesn't fail, but it's worth improving that
Speaker 1: fifty absolutely. Have you heard of Rainbow Lodge?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay had clawed on talking about even working in prison,
Speaker 1: that if you paid paid a basic wage like for
Speaker 1: working in prison, that might inspire you. So when they
Speaker 1: do walk out the doors of prison, they've got some
Speaker 1: money to set up a home and to find not
Speaker 1: a home, to find accommodation, a roof over their head,
Speaker 1: and give them enough time to find find employment, all
Speaker 1: those type of things. I really it's opened my eyes
Speaker 1: to different ways, and you know, you're a big part
Speaker 1: of it with the advocacy that you're you're doing different
Speaker 1: ways of fighting crime. Have you heard of it was
Speaker 1: down in Victoria Fruit to Work. Yes, yeah, how cool
Speaker 1: is that? I know?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Awesome?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: So there's so many entrepreneurs doing some really really fantastic stuff.
Speaker 1: And that was a simple and I think it was
Speaker 1: panic Stephen Fannick that I had on the podcast. I
Speaker 1: had that one. He It was a simple process of
Speaker 1: when someone's released from prison, he gives them a job
Speaker 1: and fruit to Work. The name of the business was
Speaker 1: they were delivering fresh fruit to offices and different things
Speaker 1: like that, but just teaching people how to turn up
Speaker 1: on time, dress appropriate for work, get a sense of responsibility,
Speaker 1: develop a CV. And they would only work for six
Speaker 1: or twelve months with them and then they would leave.
Speaker 1: But by that time they had a CV. They didn't
Speaker 1: have to say, well, what have you been doing for
Speaker 1: the past five years? Nothing, this is what they've been
Speaker 1: doing for the past twelve months, I've been working and
Speaker 1: all that little things like that. I think it's such
Speaker 1: a good idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and it just gives them a look at
Speaker 2: reintegrates them back into society, because that's half the problem
Speaker 2: with recidivism, right, is that they find themselves out on
Speaker 2: their own and don't have much services. We've got Jo Coon,
Speaker 2: who we know from confit, who's got an app now
Speaker 2: for people getting out of jail so that they can
Speaker 2: tap into a whole lot of resources, which is wonderful history.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's important to help that transitional period,
Speaker 2: which yeah, I mean, look at aj he's got a
Speaker 2: second chance now, so he.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's yeah. And look, I I was scared before
Speaker 1: I phoned you. When I was, I'm not scared of me,
Speaker 1: I hope I was scared. I'm thinking no, okay, all right, okay,
Speaker 1: just be brave. Doll the number, and Joe gave me
Speaker 1: your number. But there was something that there was quoted in.
Speaker 1: It might have been when he got parole, or it
Speaker 1: might have been something that sentencing day. Sentencing you said
Speaker 1: two lives have been destroyed. And just on that one thing,
Speaker 1: I thought, Now I looked at the work you've done.
Speaker 1: I thought, well, if anyone I've got the phone, you're
Speaker 1: you're probably a good person to start with. You'll at
Speaker 1: least understand where I'm coming from. But the fact that
Speaker 1: you said two lives have been destroyed, Like most people
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the generosity of spirit to even even consider that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that came from you guys, and that's powerful.
Speaker 2: And that's where he get sworn by the media the
Speaker 2: other day. And I was like, go and ask dad,
Speaker 2: because Mum and Dad are like, no, no, we'll speak
Speaker 2: to the me, not you. Just and then but they
Speaker 2: just went Dad was I don't know. We had a
Speaker 2: lot of friends there that day, so and so I
Speaker 2: kind of on the spot, had to come up with something.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad. I'm glad I came up with that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's true, Like that's what I'm not saying.
Speaker 2: It's two lives. Like a j may as well. Well,
Speaker 2: whilst he's hasn't been great for our lives, he's got
Speaker 2: a second chance and he I know he says he
Speaker 2: doesn't deserve it, but I think everyone has deserves a
Speaker 2: second chance. Just yeah, so long as he keeps on track.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's the thing that you've said in long
Speaker 1: conversations that we've had that you know, the worst thing
Speaker 1: could be that Eden's life was taken and the person
Speaker 1: responsible for it has learned nothing and they's come out
Speaker 1: and going to do that type of thing again. So
Speaker 1: if any anything that can give some piece that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Aj is trying to turn his life around.
Speaker 2: And there's ones that do get out that show no
Speaker 2: remorse either.
Speaker 1: When you see that that type on when you're on
Speaker 1: the on the board, how did you react to that
Speaker 1: or just sort of shake your head chat? Do you
Speaker 1: get to speak to them and ask them questions like.
Speaker 2: This particular one is very high profile. Yets out on
Speaker 2: Australian story. So a guy who tried to kill Lauren
Speaker 2: Huxley like he That was the whole reason I can
Speaker 2: talk about it is because it's out in the media. Yeah, just.
Speaker 1: That was a horrific crime. I remember the time of the.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so on Australian story. Yeah she's yeah, but she's
Speaker 2: she's doing okay, she's doing well. Yeah, brave girl and
Speaker 2: great family support. Yeah, those those parents are amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah that was I know the police involved in that,
Speaker 1: through the whole whole office felt touched by that. It
Speaker 1: was a horrendous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she had five percent chance of living, so she
Speaker 2: was a fighter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah for sure. And there's there are horrific crimes
Speaker 1: isn't it, And yeah, that's what we are. We can't
Speaker 1: we can't forget. Yeah, we can talk about ways of
Speaker 1: steering people in the right directions preventing it if we can. Great,
Speaker 1: But the there'll always be that evil out there. Given
Speaker 1: what you've seen in life and the good stuff, like
Speaker 1: the light in the darkness where you're turning people's lives around,
Speaker 1: but the darkness surrounding them, because you would have heard
Speaker 1: a lot of reports about people being abused as kids
Speaker 1: and different things. How do you retain your faith in
Speaker 1: society and humanity.
Speaker 2: I just think there's so many, so many more good
Speaker 2: people in the world than there are evil. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: there's so many good people in this world. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's what stilles my faith.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're far far away the evil people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you're a good person. I think there's
Speaker 1: been a few awards come your way too, just quietly.
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, I've had a few.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Ok, I'm going to put you on the spot.
Speaker 1: I boil it up. You told me that some of
Speaker 1: the awards that have come your way.
Speaker 2: Oh, I was nominated for New Southwest Australian of the Year.
Speaker 2: That it feels like forever ago. Yeah, New South Wales
Speaker 2: Woman of the Year. Yeah, well welcome.
Speaker 1: Yeah there's five a few, but you've been humble here.
Speaker 1: But look the work that you're doing. Most people don't
Speaker 1: do that. I know the impact If you get involved
Speaker 1: in traumatized people's worlds, which you are with some of
Speaker 1: the things you're doing, it can be tough and you
Speaker 1: carry a lot of weight and you've been doing it
Speaker 1: for a very long time, so.
Speaker 2: I know, I feel really old now, don't.
Speaker 1: You hate that we're only twenty one? Yeah, but no,
Speaker 1: full credit to you, and yeah, I know we speak
Speaker 1: of Joe how highly he speaks of you as well.
Speaker 1: And I think it's remarkable and thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I just the moment we started talking, I thought, no,
Speaker 1: I want to get you on the podcast. I couldn't
Speaker 1: believe some of the stuff you've done. But you've got
Speaker 1: a perspective of crime that most people don't have. You
Speaker 1: you've seen it in so many different different ways. So
Speaker 1: I think it's been enlightening the chat and all the
Speaker 1: best for the future and what can who can we
Speaker 1: give a shout out to your businesses or whatever.
Speaker 2: Let's do it a woman, dott are you just get
Speaker 2: on the website. If you know someone who needs help
Speaker 2: a young woman, please nominate it away. Now is a
Speaker 2: good time. But if you want to donate, please feel
Speaker 2: free to go on the website. Sounds like we need
Speaker 2: your money.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a worthy cause to me. Thanks very much,
Speaker 1: all the best, keep up, keep up the good work.
Speaker 1: So hello to your parents too. They see my.
Speaker 2: Characters, Yes they are, they are. They're beautiful people. But
Speaker 2: thank you for helping me spread the word too.
Speaker 1: Cheers,