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Speaker 1: What we're going through as a society, as individuals.

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Speaker 2: People before us have.

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Speaker 1: Gone through and they've spent a lot of time and

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Speaker 1: energy trying to work out how to how to kind of.

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Speaker 2: Get through life's really big issues.

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Speaker 1: And then they've created this philosophy called stoicism, and it's

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Speaker 1: just sitting there.

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Speaker 2: We just have to pick it up.

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Speaker 1: We can tweak it, but it's surprisingly adaptable to current life.

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Speaker 3: Good a, welcome to the show. This is better than yesterday.

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Speaker 3: Useful tools and useful conversations. It helped make your day

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Speaker 3: to day better than yesterday. Every single week, every episode

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Speaker 3: since twenty thirteen. Min Nam Josha Ginsberg. I'm very glad

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Speaker 3: you're here. I don't want to make anybody feel like

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Speaker 3: they're not a special snowflake here. But if you play

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Speaker 3: this episode, if you're listening to the sound of my voice,

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Speaker 3: there's a chance you fall into one of a few camps.

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Speaker 3: One you don't really have much of an idea about

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Speaker 3: what stoicism is. You want to know what it's about,

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Speaker 3: or you have been interested in stoicism, but you're not

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Speaker 3: so interested in the people who've talked about it, or

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Speaker 3: the way it was talked about, or how much real

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Speaker 3: estate advice or crypto portfolio work came with that stoic message,

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Speaker 3: or you know stoicism, You aren't into it. You have

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Speaker 3: got fortune favors, the brave and Latin tattooed acrossy collar bones.

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Speaker 3: But you're always down for some chat about old Marcus

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Speaker 3: a areally ono, Marcus Arellionio. I don't know you're interested

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Speaker 3: to hearing some of your ideas. However you got here.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you hear. There's conversations for you. There's valuable

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Speaker 3: lessons in this conversation, some ideas and new tools, no

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Speaker 3: matter who you are, no matter how familiar are with

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Speaker 3: this stuff, because look, stoicism is so trending, and because

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Speaker 3: of that, it may be something you want to know

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Speaker 3: a lot more about. Oh you want to know nothing

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Speaker 3: at all about it if you're in the latter frame

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Speaker 3: of mind. For you not Bridge Delaney is not jumping

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Speaker 3: on any bandwagons. She wrote By the Way, the book

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Speaker 3: and later the Netflix series Well Mania, so she's a

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Speaker 3: had a skeptical of trends to make life better as

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Speaker 3: they come. Her other books, though, Reasons Not to Worry,

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Speaker 3: and her latest book, The Seeker and the sage definitely

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Speaker 3: show that Bridgard knows stoicism inside and out, and stoicism

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Speaker 3: has been an immensely useful force in her life, which

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Speaker 3: includes being things not just an author, but also includes

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Speaker 3: being a lawyer, a journalist, a travel writer, a Guardian columnist,

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Speaker 3: and most recently, a speech writer for not one, but

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Speaker 3: two federal cabinet ministers. Bridgard talks about what drew her

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Speaker 3: to stoicism, simple ways you can practice it. And here's

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Speaker 3: something you don't normally hear in these conversations. How stoicism

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Speaker 3: can even solve big societal problems outside of ourselves and

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Speaker 3: help us achieve greater social cohesion and a change for

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Speaker 3: good in our community. Not bad for an idea that's

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Speaker 3: thousands of years old and nothing's new when it comes

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Speaker 3: to her problems or how to solve them. The solutions

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Speaker 3: are all there, we just have to be brave enough

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Speaker 3: to use them. What did I say about being a

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Speaker 3: special snowflake, No, none of us are. We're back to

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Speaker 3: hear a full conversation with Bridget in just a moment,

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Speaker 3: But I do have to see about pay some bills.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy these ads, good? I thanks so much for listening

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Speaker 3: to the show. Thanks for having me, keep the lights on.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy this conversation with Bridget Delaney. Thanks for coming in. Oh,

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Speaker 3: no worries. I noticed before you have a water bottle

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Speaker 3: here from a wellness retreat in Thailand, and the delicious

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Speaker 3: irony that you have a water bottle from wellness retreat

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Speaker 3: is delicious to me.

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Speaker 2: But why so well Mania? Of course you.

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Speaker 3: Remember that whole book, a whole TV series that commissioned.

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Speaker 1: And I've had two other books since then, so it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like the distant in the distant mists of time.

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Speaker 2: When I was writing Wilmania. It's funny.

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Speaker 1: I went to this wellness retreat in Pouquet two weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: loved itr action point, and it wasn't It wasn't a

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Speaker 1: pampering wellness retreat. It was a you stay at a

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Speaker 1: gym like you live at the gym, and you were

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Speaker 1: given a timetable and there are six to eight hours

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Speaker 1: of classes a day, plus rest and recovery, plus these

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Speaker 1: protein heavy meals like I'm talking. I'd been in France

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Speaker 1: eating baguettes and then suddenly I was on one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty grams of protein.

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Speaker 3: Fromage where groom temperature drippy cheese here.

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Speaker 1: No cheese in Thailand as I found. But yeah, but

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Speaker 1: a number of people who worked at the wellness center

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Speaker 1: have watched well Mania kind of looked at me and

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, that was that was your show, because

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Speaker 1: you know, I had been in France, not doing any

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Speaker 1: exercise and eating a lot of carbs.

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Speaker 2: So but they were like, what happened to Lorraine? We

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Speaker 2: didn't get a season two?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really fun to reconnect with those about

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're describing as a play sounds like my perfect holiday.

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Speaker 2: Oh really?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's the best week of my life.

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Speaker 1: Wow, because like they make you do stuff that's a

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Speaker 1: bit out of your comfort zone muy Thai fighting and

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Speaker 1: hot cold plunges and sounds great.

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Speaker 2: It was great.

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Speaker 3: Actually, you're considering what else goes on in Pouquet and

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Speaker 3: you know what we also know about, you know, Ossie's

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Speaker 3: and Puket. That's a pretty decent thing to get up to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was googling Ozzie's in Ozzie Death's Thailand recently is.

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Speaker 3: Theam Man number one? He's got to be Warnie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Kosa movie.

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Speaker 1: There's been a number of unfortunate deaths but there's actually

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Speaker 1: a vast amount of Australians that die in Thailand and

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Speaker 1: Bali each year simply because they've gone over there to

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Speaker 1: retire and they're old and they just drop dead in paradise.

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Speaker 1: So so that was my pre holiday research.

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Speaker 3: Can we work on a new Netflix TV too, called

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Speaker 3: in Paradise?

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Speaker 2: I think it would rate its socks off?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So the Australian Consulate in Piquette has found

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Speaker 3: out this is such a problem. They've permanently stationed an

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Speaker 3: Australian coroner there who's now living there all right, and

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Speaker 3: it's the classic you know, she's got grown kids. You know,

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Speaker 3: the husband didn't want to come and they are on again,

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Speaker 3: off again anyway. But yet now she's working with this

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Speaker 3: kind of hot assistant and you know she's there. It's

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Speaker 3: a procedural. So every week she's trying to figure out

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Speaker 3: how he died, but there's an overarch of her kind

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Speaker 3: of like it's a bit eat pre love, but it's

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Speaker 3: also a bit dexter. Let's pitch it.

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Speaker 2: I think this is amazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't believe.

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Speaker 2: You just came up with that.

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Speaker 3: This is what I do all day. You were so

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Speaker 3: creative you didn't come here to talk about film and

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Speaker 3: TV production. But it's all a part of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, because this is a part of the diversification

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Speaker 3: that is required. There was a time when you're going like,

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Speaker 3: this is it. I'm writing, I'll be a writer forever.

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Speaker 3: I hang on, it's not quite paying the bills like

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Speaker 3: you used to. How I'm going to make this ip

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Speaker 3: work for me? Time? At what point did you start

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Speaker 3: to realize that I'm going to have to start exploring elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: I think if you want to be a writer, you

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Speaker 1: have to just presume that you're going to have to

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Speaker 1: have a second job or a first job, and writing

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Speaker 1: becomes your second job. There is always something else paying

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Speaker 1: the bills. Because I don't know if you've seen the

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Speaker 1: latest stats, but the average writer in Australia, you know,

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Speaker 1: it earns between like twenty and fifty grand if they're lucky.

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Speaker 3: You don't write books in Australia to make money.

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Speaker 1: But you do write books because you don't care about

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Speaker 1: the money, you know have You write books because you

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Speaker 1: are driven by such a kind of mysterious compulsion to

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Speaker 1: spend years of your.

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Speaker 2: Life in a.

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Speaker 1: In a horrible little room, staring at your laptop, just

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Speaker 1: looking at the awful thing that you've written that could

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Speaker 1: never be published, and you know whipping yourself that you'll

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Speaker 1: never write the book that you set out to write,

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Speaker 1: because there is some like weird compulsion to actually say something.

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Speaker 3: Having I'm a great fan of Rick Rubin, the music producer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's amazing, written an extraordinary book on creativity.

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Speaker 3: I love that extraordinary book because you got to detach

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Speaker 3: from the money. Yeah, the idea of detaching from it completely. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and just not if I don't care about the money,

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Speaker 3: then what do I do? What do I care about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I care about Is this a true reflection of what

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Speaker 3: it is I wanted to make?

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Speaker 2: Yeap?

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Speaker 1: And often it's not often you fall well short. But

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Speaker 1: the process is where the gold is, like the process

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Speaker 1: of trying to work it out, like I've kind of

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Speaker 1: this is my fifth I've just got a new book out,

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Speaker 1: Seeker in the Sage, and it's my fifth book, and

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Speaker 1: pretty much in every single book, although they're all different,

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Speaker 1: I'm still trying to work out the same one question,

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Speaker 1: which is how should we live? You know, how should

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Speaker 1: we actually use the life that we've got? And each

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Speaker 1: book is trying to answer that, and obviously I don't

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Speaker 1: fully answer it to my for myself, That's why I

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Speaker 1: have to keep going. But you know, Rick will say

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Speaker 1: in his book, you know that you're often you're often

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Speaker 1: writing in many ways for yourself. You're trying to work

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Speaker 1: something else for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, when did you first start to ask that question?

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Speaker 1: Really young? When I was a kid, I wanted two

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Speaker 1: things out of life. I wanted to have adventures and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know the meaning of life. And that

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Speaker 1: were those were the kind of things that have propelled

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Speaker 1: me over the last few decades. You know, I want

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Speaker 1: to have an adventurous life. I want to have a

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Speaker 1: big life. In some ways, that's incompatible with being a writer,

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Speaker 1: because being a writer is, you know, by its nature,

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Speaker 1: it's quite small.

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Speaker 3: You are.

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Speaker 1: You are not socializing, you're not engaging. It's just you

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Speaker 1: and your brain and that piece of paper or that

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Speaker 1: screen trying to create something. But the meaning thing, I

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Speaker 1: think is really important, and it's only gotten more important

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Speaker 1: as I've got older, which is to live a life

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Speaker 1: where you're not grappling with meaning, is to kind of

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Speaker 1: live a life that's untethered. You know, there's nothing, there's

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Speaker 1: no stake in the ground. When things get really rough

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Speaker 1: politically or with world events, it's easy to feel sort

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Speaker 1: of swept away, And I think meaning gives you a

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Speaker 1: kind of ballast.

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Speaker 3: I get why people find comfort in structural religion.

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Speaker 2: I kind of envy that.

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Speaker 3: Like, I get it. But once I started to decouple

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Speaker 3: from that, I felt a lot more in control. But

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Speaker 3: then I also realized, oh, fuck, now I've got to

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Speaker 3: find these things for myself. But thankfully I'm not the

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Speaker 3: first person to do that, And thankfully there's people who

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Speaker 3: thousands of years ago kind of came up with a

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Speaker 3: fairly decent set of a waye to look at the

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Speaker 3: world for people who've never heard about selves. Because this

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Speaker 3: is your new book, is a parable really kind of

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Speaker 3: based upon this as a way to introduce the I

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Speaker 3: guess these ideas to people in a different kind of way.

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Speaker 3: If you're a Ryan holiday kind of person, I am,

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Speaker 3: and that's okay, but everybody is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's basically like The Alchemist or a fable between

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Speaker 1: a it's a it's a journalist who's sent to interview

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Speaker 1: a stoic sage. So it's a dialogue between these two characters,

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Speaker 1: and as the journalist is learning about Stoicism, so are

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Speaker 1: you the reader. So it's a way of teaching some

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Speaker 1: principles using story, kind of using fictional tools as well,

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Speaker 1: means that you can broaden out from your own experience.

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Speaker 1: Like my book before This Reason's Not to Worry, which

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Speaker 1: was also a Stoicism book, was essentially a memoir about

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Speaker 1: how I came to Stoicism, what I got out of it,

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Speaker 1: and my kind of testing of the Stoic principles. However,

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Speaker 1: you know, some of the biggest things that the Stoics

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Speaker 1: have to teach us are around like the really nihli

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Speaker 1: stuff like sickness, grief, and death, and I haven't experienced

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Speaker 1: those things. So my writing actually naturally had to stop

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Speaker 1: at a certain point in the first Stoicism book because

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Speaker 1: I couldn't you know, I hadn't had the experiences in

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Speaker 1: order to kind of write about them. In this book,

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Speaker 1: the characters do that work, you know, you can give

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Speaker 1: the characters experiences that you haven't had, including you know, sickness, grief,

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Speaker 1: and death.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, when I think about all the things

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Speaker 3: I've listened to over the years about Stoicism, it's always

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Speaker 3: been men telling me about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird that because I find Stoicism is not

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Speaker 1: a particularly gendered philosophy, like it never started off as

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Speaker 1: a gendered philosophy, Like the Greek Stoics believes that everyone

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Speaker 1: was everyone who was rational was equal. So if you're

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Speaker 1: a slaver or a free person, if you're a man

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Speaker 1: or a woman, if you were black, white, or brown,

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Speaker 1: you know, you were all equal if you used your

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Speaker 1: rational mind. The minute you lost rationality, you were not

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Speaker 1: considered equal. So you know, women were invited, you know,

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Speaker 1: theoretically at least to go to classes to learn Stoicism.

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Speaker 1: It was never a particularly masculine or feminine philosophy the

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Speaker 1: way I read it, and you read Marcus Arelius, and

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Speaker 1: he models some really great ways to be. I mean,

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Speaker 1: his life he was you know, you could say he was.

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Speaker 1: There was genocide and there was a lot of wars,

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Speaker 1: but in his writing he modeled kind of masculinity in

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Speaker 1: a much softer way than we're seeing today from the manisphere.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't see it as an ultra ultra

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Speaker 1: male thing.

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Speaker 3: It's super deep if you really want to get into it,

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Speaker 3: but it can also be boiled down feely quickly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, people.

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Speaker 3: That might have never, you know, really considered what the

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Speaker 3: Stoic principles are. You mentioned that before, how would you

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Speaker 3: describe them?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'd say to people who don't know what

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Speaker 1: it is, say three point fifty BC. There was a

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Speaker 1: heap of different philosophies in Greece, and you could kind

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Speaker 1: of pick and choose religion. You know, the kind of

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Speaker 1: old gods. Old gods were sort of fading. Christianity hadn't

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Speaker 1: come in, so there was this really interesting gap where rationality, reason, argument,

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Speaker 1: the kind of desire to be a good citizen, all

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Speaker 1: of that was bubbling around in the city. And Stoicism

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Speaker 1: was part of that mix. And the word Stoic comes

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Speaker 1: from the Greek Woods, which was the painted porch where

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Speaker 1: they all met, and then it traveled from Greece to Rome.

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Speaker 1: And the writing that we have on Stoicism is the Roman.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the Roman writing survived the Greeks not

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Speaker 1: so much. So that's the history. In a nutshell. Stoicism

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Speaker 1: looks at firstly what we can and can't control in life,

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Speaker 1: and it says we can only control a very small

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Speaker 1: amount of things. That is our characters, our actions and

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Speaker 1: reactions and how we treat other people, and the rest

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Speaker 1: is out of our control, so we shouldn't freak out

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Speaker 1: or worry about things that we can't control. The whole

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Speaker 1: purpose of this was to reduce suffering. The Stoics, like

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Speaker 1: other philosophers, realize that life is essentially full of suffering.

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Speaker 2: We particularly back then.

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Speaker 1: You know, you had eleven children, probably seven of them

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Speaker 1: would have died in childbooth. Yeah, there was you know,

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Speaker 1: no modern medicine, and there was.

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Speaker 3: A cut could kill you. Water purification, there's no vaccination,

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Speaker 3: there's no tooth brushes. People were dying before the age

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Speaker 3: of thirty all the time. I'm fifty one, and I

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Speaker 3: would be ancient.

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Speaker 1: In that system, you would be a sage probably. But

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Speaker 1: it's they needed something, as I was saying earlier, you

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Speaker 1: need some sort of meaning, you need some sort of framework.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise the chaos can overwhelm you and you know, and

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Speaker 1: that's a very unpleasant experience. So they tried to work out, well,

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Speaker 1: how can we lessen suffering? And we can lessen suffering

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Speaker 1: by not suffering more than we need to. So there's

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Speaker 1: going to be some suffering that you can't avoid if

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Speaker 1: you cut yourself. No antibiotics, it gets infected and then

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Speaker 1: you lose your hand. You're going to suffer. That's suffering.

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Speaker 1: You can't help that, but you can control the resentment

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Speaker 1: that you might you might spend the rest of your

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Speaker 1: life resenting the fact that this happened to you. And

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Speaker 1: they said, well, you can control that resentment. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can't control the first suffering, you can control the

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Speaker 1: second because you can control your thoughts, you can control

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Speaker 1: your reactions to things. So that's what they tried to

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Speaker 1: really work on was their reactions. You know, how can

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Speaker 1: I be less reactive, less angry? How can I be

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Speaker 1: more that this is Greek word that they keeps on

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Speaker 1: coming up time and time again at Araxia well being?

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Speaker 1: How can I not lose my call? Not get too high,

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Speaker 1: not go too low? Like how do I be chill

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Speaker 1: when the worst stuff's happening?

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Speaker 3: Season two, Netflix, At Araxiomania.

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Speaker 2: We're on, We're on.

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Speaker 1: It might not be an interesting show because at Araxia,

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Speaker 1: by its very nature is not dramatic. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's the less drama the better.

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Speaker 3: What I do love about this interesting time you talk

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Speaker 3: about between like the old gods, We're talking like.

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Speaker 2: Zeus and yeah, all those guys.

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Speaker 3: And people kind of figuring out, well, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: like what's just here. The idea that they wanted to

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Speaker 3: have some agency. It's not over to some bearded bloken

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Speaker 3: This guy who's starting lightning bolts at me was some

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Speaker 3: agency that I can deal with. The other thing I

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Speaker 3: really really love. They were also very aware of the

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Speaker 3: shortcomings of the brains that we have that's inside us.

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Speaker 3: There is an a meg dealer. We know the names

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Speaker 3: for all this stuff. Now, there is something that reacts

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Speaker 3: so much quicker than you can possibly intervene in. You

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Speaker 3: have no control of it. And when I learned that,

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Speaker 3: these guys went, oh, you're going to get flooded, and

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Speaker 3: you're going to get super mad, and you're going to

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Speaker 3: get super sad. Just don't do anything. For about twenty minutes,

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh fuck. So the idea of stoicism

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Speaker 3: is like I'm standing there and I'm holding this shit

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Speaker 3: in No. Yeah, because I'm feeling this, but I also

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Speaker 3: know not to say or do anything that could be

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Speaker 3: a problem. Will take myself out of situation and then come.

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Speaker 2: Take myself out of ataraxia, you know, which is.

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Speaker 3: It's just so brilliant that they understood that was within

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Speaker 3: them that they can't control it for a little bit. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and what they can control is just don't do anything

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Speaker 3: in them. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Delay Seneca, one of the Roman Stokes, wrote this great

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Speaker 1: book on anger called The Era.

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Speaker 3: Which I think was a Taylor Swift recorder, a.

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Speaker 1: Taylor Swift record, but it's you can read it today

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Speaker 1: and it's still it's very usable, it's very useful. It's

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Speaker 1: practical tips for not getting angry. And they said, no

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Speaker 1: scourge has hurt the human race more than anger, and

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Speaker 1: this is this is how you deal with your anger.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can't deal with someone else's anger. If

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Speaker 1: you're in a road rage situation and you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: someone who's very angry and they decide to bash you,

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Speaker 1: there's really not much you can do about that. But

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Speaker 1: you cannot bash them, you know, like that is that's

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Speaker 1: within your power. So they spent you know, part of

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Speaker 1: being a stoic was journaling, and it still is if

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Speaker 1: you want to practice it today. And it's not about

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Speaker 1: like I had this great interview with Osha today and

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Speaker 1: he did this, and you know, I wonder if he

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Speaker 1: thought you know the interview went, well, it's about how

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Speaker 1: how have I responded? I Have I shown up on time?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: Have I been prepared?

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Speaker 1: You know when I got asked a difficult question, did

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Speaker 1: I did I get annoyed? So Stoic will monitor their

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Speaker 1: own emotional responses because they believed that emotional response was

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Speaker 1: within their control. So you journal as a way of

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Speaker 1: holding yourself accountable every night, and so with practice you

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Speaker 1: actually get far better at your responses. And this is

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Speaker 1: what they have in common with Vader Buddhists. A lot

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Speaker 1: of these Eastern religions. I may not be able to control.

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Speaker 1: I definitely can't control what happened in the Middle East

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Speaker 1: or in foreign war. However, if I make an effort,

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Speaker 1: a big effort to be peaceful, to not be angry,

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Speaker 1: to be loving towards others, that does have a ripple effect,

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Speaker 1: and I can control that.

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Speaker 2: I can control how I.

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Speaker 3: Am, And in my experience, if I can control my

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Speaker 3: level of anger about something like that, my ability to

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Speaker 3: take action can sometimes we far more useful.

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Speaker 1: There's so many different kind of views on rage and anger.

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Speaker 1: Some argue that it's a kind of great catalyst for action.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely a very powerful energy. And there's this kind

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Speaker 1: of great feminist book I think it was in the

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Speaker 1: eighties that'd called The Dance of Anger about how women

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Speaker 1: should be more angry at their husbands.

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Speaker 2: That Look, the Stoics would say.

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Speaker 1: No, no excuses. I mean, maybe when you feel that

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Speaker 1: first burst of anger before it completely bubbles up, realize

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Speaker 1: it's trying to tell you something, but then use your

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Speaker 1: reason to suppress it or to redirect it. But it

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Speaker 1: should there's never an excuse for anger. Anything that took

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Speaker 1: you out of ataxia. They were really they were kind

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Speaker 1: of fearful of So it's about self preservation. Like it's like,

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Speaker 1: once you're out of ataraxia, like you think about the

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Speaker 1: decisions you make and what you think when you're stressed

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Speaker 1: and distressed. They're often bad decisions. So the Stoics prized rationality,

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Speaker 1: you know, using your brain, so getting rid of all

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Speaker 1: the emotions that are turbulent and then acting from that

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Speaker 1: position of calmness, from you know, equilibrium. But look, I

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Speaker 1: found since starting I started sort of really seriously reading

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Speaker 1: about stoicism and practicing it around eight years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I one of the major effects is like I just

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Speaker 1: don't get that angry anymore. I get upset with the

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Speaker 1: state of the world. I get sad, but it's really

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Speaker 1: hard to get me. I'll get angry every now and again,

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Speaker 1: but it's I get angry when people take advantage of

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Speaker 1: me or you know, I'm not respected, but the anger

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Speaker 1: is far less than it used to be.

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Speaker 3: How would you say your overall mental health was before

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Speaker 3: you started thinking about things in this way and how

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Speaker 3: much control you felt over your life first is now?

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Speaker 1: Look, I'd say my mental health was actually pretty good

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Speaker 1: because I'd spent fifteen years before stoicism doing the research

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Speaker 1: that would end up being well mania. So I had

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Speaker 1: gone on every single retreat. You know, I used to

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Speaker 1: be a travel journalist, and I'd send myself, you know,

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Speaker 1: I kind of credit a niche for myself. I'd send

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Speaker 1: myself to these places where, you know, whether they be monasteries, ashrams,

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Speaker 1: all these places where it was about learning different techniques

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Speaker 1: to keep your mind in good. Nick didn't always treat

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Speaker 1: my body well, but I sought out places where, you know,

435
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: mindfulness was key. So I've been on a long journey since,

436
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: you know, you know, my twenties around this stuff, and

437
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: stoicism is the thing that's stuck for me, and I

438
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: really recommend it. I just think it's super easy and

439
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: it works.

440
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 3: And there's only four there's only four things to remember, Yeah, Courage, justice,

441
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 3: and temperance, and they're.

442
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: The four virtues. You know, there's no kind of church

443
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: to worship in. There's no sort of hierarchy. It's very

444
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: much you. You're reading about it. You if you jibe

445
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: with it, start you know, just by a journal, start

446
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: incorporating it. Read Ryan Holiday, read more academic stuff. If

447
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: that's your that's the level you want to go in at.

448
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: Like my books are very basic for new people. But yeah,

449
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: just explore it. It's been I mean, how I think

450
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: of it is what we're going through as a society,

451
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: as individuals.

452
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: People before us have gone through.

453
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: And they've spent a lot of time and energy trying

454
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: to work out how to how to kind of.

455
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: Get through life's really big issues.

456
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: And then they've created this philosophy called stoicism, and it's

457
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: just sitting there. We just have to pick it up,

458
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: put it on. You know, we actually don't have to

459
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: develop we can tweak it, but it's surprisingly adaptable to

460
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: current life, particularly things like social media and right.

461
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: Let's let's say, for an example, or I don't know,

462
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: it's it's two fifty five and you are running like

463
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: the school pickup. You've got a little one in the

464
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: back who has missed a nap and they're screaming, can

465
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 3: I watch K Pop Demon Hunters again? And why did

466
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: I get you out of daycare early today? And then

467
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 3: the other one jumps in and you know, they're covering

468
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 3: in bandaids and something terrible happen. They've got a note

469
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: from the teacher or whatever, and then now you're trying

470
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: to get to piano class. Everything's just like fucked, kind

471
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: of a kind of afternoon. How does stoicism play into

472
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: that moment?

473
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: So it's they do this thing called premeditation of evils,

474
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: which is you imagine before a situation happens. A scenario

475
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: is like that. You imagine that it's likely that at

476
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: that time of day, if a nap has been missed,

477
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: the child's going to be ratty. You might know that

478
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 1: your other child's adventurous is likely to get into scrapes,

479
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: so you have some sense that this is foreseeable, and

480
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: when it happens, you've already imagined it. You've already run

481
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 1: the scenario through. In reality, you're like, Okay, this is

482
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: the nature of having two children, this age, this is

483
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: the nature of living in a city. This is the

484
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: nature of the traffic in this city. There's nothing unexpected

485
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: about this. This is just how it's meant to be.

486
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: To demand that the universe bend to your will, that

487
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: the child is in pristine condition, that they've slept for

488
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: four hours, that you've got an absolutely car free, you know,

489
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: ride home on the m one like you are dreaming.

490
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: I mean, what stoicism says is be in reality. Know

491
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: what reality is, and reality is often not what we

492
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: would like it to be. So the Stoics did this

493
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: thing where they trained for discomfort. You know, sometimes they

494
00:27:54,440 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: slept on the ground. Sometimes they wore we're clothing, so

495
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: you know, scratchy stuff, scratchy stuff, but also stuff that

496
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: was unfashionable. So if they were mocked, they realized that

497
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: it didn't it wouldn't kind of affect their own character.

498
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: They fasted all sorts of things, so they got used

499
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: to discomfort. And so there's you know, it's uncomfortable having

500
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: screaming children in a car and you're stuck in traffic,

501
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: but if you've if you've mentally prepared for it, and

502
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: you've physically prepared for it, you've.

503
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 2: Been there before.

504
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: You know you can survive it. You'll be okay, you'll

505
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: be fine.

506
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: The acceptance of this it is what it is and

507
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: it isn't what it isn't, Yeah, is such a it's

508
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: such a leap to make. But once you get on

509
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: the other side of it, Yeah, now you're free to

510
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: make more choices, because before you've made that, the only

511
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 3: choice is upset and you've got very binary you know. Yeah,

512
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: that's it. Yep, that's it. But once you get on

513
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 3: the other side of that, you're like, okay, well what

514
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: do we go from here? And you will kind of

515
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: opens up a bit more. But I understand because it's

516
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: a bit of a back to the you know, the

517
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: primitive brain parts. There's a viable instinct at play here.

518
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 3: You know, Oh, this is uncomfortable. We should make this

519
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: stop in any way possible. However, how do we make

520
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 3: this stop? We call the whole thing off. That's the

521
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: best quickest way through, all right, Yeah, But the more

522
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: we do that, the bigger and those things become, and

523
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: our barrier to calling the whole thing off gets lower

524
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: and lower and lower. Eventually we don't do anything. Yeah,

525
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: we don't leave the house, we don't meet people, We don't.

526
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: Which is kind of happening now in society. Yeah, there's people,

527
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: you know. I got an UBI here because the sort

528
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: of getting up a little bit earlier, getting several forms

529
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: of public transport.

530
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: It's just too much friction.

531
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, this is not a stoic way

532
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: of coming to the interview, you know, like I should

533
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: be as a stoic wanting friction. I should be wanting

534
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: a public transport strike today because friction. If I can

535
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: train myself in friction, I then get stronger at dealing

536
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: with it. And when friction comes at me in a

537
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: big way, which it will always does for everyone, I'm

538
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: okay with it.

539
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: I've got my ataxia. I can roll with it.

540
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: You know.

541
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: It's about getting used to being uncomfortable.

542
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 3: It seems like all effort though we can't. Why do

543
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: I have to change myself? Can everybody else change? What

544
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 3: do we get? What do we get by taking responsibility

545
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: for our reactions?

546
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: We get a sense of freedom.

547
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's incredibly liberating to realize that you can't

548
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: control anyone else because so you stop trying and you

549
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: actually let a bit of air into relationships.

550
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 2: You let people People want to be accepted for who

551
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: they are.

552
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: You know, don't want someone saying you're not good enough

553
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 1: or you need to be this other sort of person.

554
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: So when you stop trying to change people, when you

555
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: just start focusing on your own qualities and the stoics,

556
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: as you said earlier, it was courage, wisdom, just and temperance,

557
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: which is moderation. When you focus on those things and

558
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: not being reactive or reacting to someone with love and compassion,

559
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: it actually has a transformative effect on those around you.

560
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's very hard to be at war with

561
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: someone who is giving you the freedom to make your

562
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: own decisions, trying not to be judgmental.

563
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of intoxicating.

564
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: A quick breakaway from bridge to delaying to let you

565
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: know if you want to come to the next live show,

566
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 3: which is possibly the last live show we're doing for

567
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. It's at the Marrickville Factory Theater in

568
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 3: Marrickville the ninth of November. Story Club featuring Harley Breen,

569
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: Nina Oyama from Dead Luck, and Mark Humphrey's more guests

570
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: to be announced, possibly the last one doing for the year.

571
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: Do not miss it. It's an amazing, amazing night. Also

572
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 3: my new book, So What Now? What is aut Wherever

573
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: you get books, it's the perfect Christmas gift. If you're

574
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 3: in the office Secret Santa, if you're in Chris Kringle,

575
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: give it to someone you care about. Just whack it

576
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 3: on the table there in the middle of the boardroom,

577
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: put it in an envelope and you know, Bob Joe,

578
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: it'll be the best thing that person ever gets. We're

579
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 3: back in a moment. How can stoicism you mentioned it

580
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 3: has a earlier we were talking about it to have

581
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: an effect on the world we live in. How can

582
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: stoicism or the these philosophies work on a societal level

583
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: or on a collective level. How can they change a group?

584
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: How can they change a culture?

585
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: So that's what I was interested in with my book

586
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: The Secret and the Sage, which was looking at how

587
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: does stoicism work on a collective And this journalist is

588
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: sent to find this town which is like rumored to

589
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: be the happiest town on earth. It's called Silver Springs

590
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,239
Speaker 1: after the Fleetwood Max song and she undertakes a very

591
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: difficult journey. She finally gets are to spend three days

592
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: with the mayor to find out how does stoicism work

593
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: on a government level. And it can work by you know,

594
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: role modeling. As I said before, So you know, the

595
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: schools in this town teach stoicism, they teach resilience, they

596
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: teach acceptance of others, not trying to change others. And

597
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: there's some people that doesn't work for and they leave

598
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: the town. But most people have enough freedom to be

599
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: themselves and enjoy their life, but enough of a sense

600
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: of these are our values, shared values that there is

601
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: incredible social cohesion. So through the conversation between the journalists

602
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: and the mayor, I'm looking at governance. I'm looking at

603
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: well because I've just spent the last three years working

604
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: in government as a ministerial speech writer and got to

605
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: kind of see up close how government work. It's so

606
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: it's so massive, so fascinating. And then I took those

607
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: lessons from that time in government, shrunk them down, and

608
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: then put them in this book.

609
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: How could a leader of whether it be a school

610
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: or a company or a country, how could a leader

611
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: incorporate these values in a way that could be could

612
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 3: be useful. What does a leader look like who uses

613
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: these principles.

614
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: There's someone who firstly has the four virtues. You need

615
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: a leader who's courageous. I would put Zelenski definitely in

616
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: that camp. You need a leader who recognizes justice. And

617
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: I think recognizing justice is something innate. It's like, is

618
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: it just to take people off the street, hold them

619
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: without charge and then send them to Venezuela without a trial. No,

620
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, we have principles of justice which you need

621
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: to know what you've been charged with. You need to

622
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: go before a court. To not tell someone why they've

623
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: been what they've been charged with is unjust. So we

624
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: have this innate sense of justice. And I think a country,

625
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: or a company or a community, in sort of my book,

626
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: their system has justice at the core and those principles.

627
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: Temperance and moderation is I think around resources, you know,

628
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: around not being too greedy. You've got to keep the

629
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: lights on, But how do we do it in such

630
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: a way that things are in balance with the natural world?

631
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: And then.

632
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: Wisdom is you know, wisdom's thought like the difference between

633
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: leadership that is inspiring and powerful and a disaster. You know,

634
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: is Trump wise? I think he's smart, don't think he's wise.

635
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, a wise leader learns from past mistakes and

636
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: doesn't repeat them.

637
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 3: So you worked as a speechwriter. People may this might

638
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 3: be the first time they've come to understand that someone

639
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: else writes the words yea and now leaders get you

640
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: in front of seventeen or twenty six. I can't remember

641
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: what Abbot's record was for the Australian flags behind someone

642
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: else writes those words. They're busy people, all right, and

643
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 3: there's a very complicated policy or thing that's probably one

644
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 3: hundred and eighty pages long. You're trying to get down

645
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: into something short enough that one paragraph of it will

646
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: survive to a SoundBite on the news, and that's going

647
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 3: to tell everybody everything they needs to know. It's very

648
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 3: hard thing to do, certainly not if you're busy running

649
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: a country. How did you even get that gig?

650
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: So I've been working as a journalist for The Guardian

651
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: and done a column for about eight years.

652
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 3: I'm impressure you. I haven't asked me for donation yet, no.

653
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: Longer there so I can put away the begging bee.

654
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: Even after donate as a subscriber for a while. They

655
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: still ask me like, come on, surely there's a cookie

656
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 3: that tells you I've done.

657
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: This pop up? So annoying.

658
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I was working there and I'd loved this

659
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: book by Don Watson called Recollections of a Bleeding Heart,

660
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: which was his account of being a speech writer for

661
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: Keating in the it was the eighties and the nineties.

662
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: And always thought that that sounded like a really interesting job.

663
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: So you're close to the action, you get to see

664
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: behind the curtain. You were talking before in a different

665
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: context about looking behind the curtain. But also I think

666
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: it's really interesting and important, like if there's complex policies,

667
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: that the person delivering the information about the policies is

668
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: able to deliver it in a way that most people

669
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: can understand and connect with. So and also just fascinated

670
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: with like what goes on in Canberra. So I started

671
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: kind of towards the start of the first term of

672
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: the Albanese government and finished after the election.

673
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: So did my tour of duty.

674
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, take us through it, like if like we want

675
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 3: to be able to communicate this to the people, yep,

676
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 3: we've also got to satisfy members of you know, factional

677
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: members within the party, and yet we're also going to

678
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 3: stave off kind of criticism from there.

679
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: How do we The person delivering the speech is the

680
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: is the minister or the politician, so they are the

681
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: ones that steer the process. Like they'll have an idea

682
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: of what they want to say, which beats.

683
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 2: They want to hit.

684
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: They'll also know better than anyone the interests that might

685
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: be pleased or displeased by the speech. And then you

686
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: work with policy people, so senior people who are subject

687
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: matter experts, like I did a number of speeches last

688
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: year on the Murray Darling basin, which is something I

689
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: had I knew nothing about, and this speech had to

690
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: be delivered to a room full of subject matter experts.

691
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: So you've got to enlighten the experts. And so that's

692
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: where you have advisors in a political office who are

693
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: subject matter experts and you work very closely with them

694
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: to get the technical information, and then you work with

695
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: the minister to sort of like, but what do you

696
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: want to say in this You know what's the message?

697
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes you know things happen in the news, which means

698
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: the speech has to change at the last minute, or.

699
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's very dynamic.

700
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: So when through the three years of doing this, you

701
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 3: would have seen how some things you wrote just perhaps

702
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 3: cause more problems than anybody expected, and some things you

703
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: wrote absolutely amazing and really drove real fundamental change change

704
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 3: people's lives. What would you say, What have you learned

705
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: about you know, effective communication from doing that job.

706
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: You never know how something's going to land. This is

707
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: a stoic thing. You can't control the outcome. You can

708
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: control the amount of work you've put into something, the

709
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: amount of research you might have done on a policy thing,

710
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: if you've spoken to the appropriate stakeholders. What you decide

711
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: to admit is really important. Like what you leave out

712
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: can often be as critical as what you put in.

713
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: You can't control the media's reaction to speech or you know,

714
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: something that the minister might say on the Today Show

715
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: or whatever. So and the politicians know that better than anyone.

716
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: Like they are.

717
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: They are schooled in stoicism, whether they realize it or not.

718
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: You know, every election they're out there not knowing what

719
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: the outcome is going to be. You know, will they

720
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: lose their job or they see.

721
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 3: There's a What did you learn about the appeal to

722
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: a common value when you're trying to communicate a political message.

723
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's super important, and that's often work

724
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: that say the media team will do with the politicians.

725
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: They'll work out, well, look what you know, what are

726
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: we trying to trigger here? And the easy thing for

727
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: me is I share the I share labor values in

728
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: terms of.

729
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: The values of that.

730
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: Party, you know, things like workers' rights, you know, closing

731
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: the gender pay gap, those kind of big old fashioned

732
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: labor things are things that I also believe in. So

733
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: writing speeches that use those values were something that came naturally.

734
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: I think I'd find it more difficult to write a

735
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 1: political speech that used fear. That would be tricky for me.

736
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: And I also think people don't necessarily want to People

737
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: all read anxious enough, like they don't necessarily want another

738
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: dose of fear with their morning coffee.

739
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's so wild that we have to like

740
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: very deliberately appeal to humanity, you know.

741
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: I think people want their humanity appealed to, you know,

742
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: I mean they want to feel like they are not,

743
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: you know, walking out in the middle of some.

744
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: Like terrible culture war. That's I mean.

745
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: I go on x dot com and my feed has

746
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: all this stuff about it's very misogynist my feed for

747
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: some reason. And I don't want to go out on

748
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: the street and look at men differently and think, oh,

749
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: this guy hates women. You know, that's not my experience

750
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: of men. But yet social media will will tell me that.

751
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: You know, guys think that any woman under twenty one

752
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: is an old slack.

753
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a it's this is the world

754
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: we're in.

755
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: Like reality and the inter are quite I feel like

756
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: they're quite different. You know, the Stoics were actually really

757
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: precient on social media, Like they didn't they had no idea,

758
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 1: they had no idea that social media was coming. It's

759
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: like that's two thousand years early. But they did talk

760
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: a lot about like people like if you get like

761
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: slagged off or dock st or you know, when I

762
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: was writing the column, I used to get so much hate,

763
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, how to deal with a hate on social media?

764
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: When who works with The Guardian.

765
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: I think it's part of the journey which I do

766
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: not miss. But the you know, the Stoics would say,

767
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: you can't control what other people say about you. So

768
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: what I do now is I don't read any comments

769
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: on anything that i've I don't read my good Reads.

770
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: I don't look at any internet comments. I also, if

771
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: someone says there's been a great review of your book,

772
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: I do not read that because I don't want to

773
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: get a false picture of my value or how good

774
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: a thing I've done, you know, if it's good or bad.

775
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 1: I just don't want to know anything.

776
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 3: So, for example, people have already heard you speaking about

777
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 3: writing things down and at the end of the day.

778
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: So for example, someone did have that day with the

779
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: kids in the car and the piano list and da

780
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 3: a day they swouned something on X and it's bothering,

781
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 3: bothering them. What does it look like at the end

782
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 3: of the night, what does that practice look like? And well,

783
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 3: someone wants to try it out tonight, what would they do?

784
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so they would get their journal and just a

785
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: plane journal, pen and paper. And you say, today in

786
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: the car when I was agitated, did I scream at

787
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: the kids? How did I respond? Did I tell them

788
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: to shut up? Did I fail to show love to

789
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: my child that was injured? Did I abuse another driver

790
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: on the way home? Did I you know, did I

791
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: respond a way that wasn't.

792
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 2: You know, stoic?

793
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 1: And if it was like yeah, I yelled at my kid,

794
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: told my kid to shut up. You might write that down,

795
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: make a note of it, and make a note of

796
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: like what circumstances were you in, what were you feeling

797
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: at the time, What ended up happening after you told

798
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: the kid to shut up? They started crying, they were upset,

799
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: they were hurt. So it's like, okay, well that was

800
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: the consequence of that, which further aggravated me. So you

801
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: kind of chart your responses and then you might say, well,

802
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: what about next time. It's like, Okay, next time, I

803
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: might still be agitated within myself when I'm in that circumstances,

804
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: but I might just do one thing differently and that's

805
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: not yell at the kid. And then it's like, what

806
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 1: can I do to make this experience easier next time

807
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 1: it happens, because it will happen again.

808
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 2: It's like it might be too.

809
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: You have an exercise where I imagine my kids as

810
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: middle aged and they're not. They're not relying on me anymore.

811
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: You know, they don't need me, so that time in

812
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: the car is actually it can be sacred time if

813
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: you think about how it's not forever. So you turn

814
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: something hideous into something precious and that might take a

815
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: while to get there. But the kids are going to

816
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: grow up. They're not gonna you know, you're gonna have

817
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: an empty car one day.

818
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 3: So is there is there a point in this writing

819
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 3: where you kind of think about some action steps, like

820
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to say sorry for that, or I

821
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: might have to make that better.

822
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: Well you can't, you can't make it better. It's happened.

823
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: So Stoic's sox a very much in the present, like that.

824
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: They don't believe in guilt, you know, just your work

825
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: is the work in the journal, and then you know,

826
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: next time it happens, you just do it differently.

827
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 3: But to apologize to the kid for yelling, yeah.

828
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah you might.

829
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: If that's that's your bag, you might say, I'm sorry

830
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: for yelling that. You know, I'm trying to work on

831
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: keeping my cool. It's all you need to say. You

832
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: don't need to go over the top.

833
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 3: And how long is this process?

834
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: They however long it takes, you know, like it's I mean,

835
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: stoicism's a bit like religion, like you talked earlier about

836
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: about the church. You know, there's a reason I can

837
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: see it now why we had to go back every Sunday.

838
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: I got Catholic.

839
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: Why we were in doctrinated at school while we have

840
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: religious education classes. Why there were all these sacraments throughout

841
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: childhood and masses and everything. It's because you don't just

842
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: read the Bible once and then you're a Christian. You

843
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: have to have it drummed into you over and over

844
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: and over again, and then one day you know you've

845
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: absorbed enough that it becomes part of your nature. Stoicism's

846
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: the same, Buddhism's the same. You know, they're all the same.

847
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: You have to make a lifelong practice.

848
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a six pack once for eighteen hours.

849
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: I still I do not still have that seat.

850
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: If you took a.

851
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: Photo, yes it was the cover of a magazine, but

852
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 3: I do not still have that six pack because I

853
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 3: did not keep up the practices which required that allowed

854
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 3: my body to look like that.

855
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: It's ongoing, but it's it's super rewarding. Actually, it's funny.

856
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: In the puquette at the Pukeut Wellness Center, I said

857
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: to the guy after a particularly brutal training session, how

858
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: long do I have to do this for?

859
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: Like this regime? And he's like, until you die.

860
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 3: I'm like Okay, I'm so delighted you came in. It's

861
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 3: so lovely to hear from you.

862
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: It's great, great to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

863
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. And I don't know, do we put

864
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 3: a pitch deck together? Do we go to screend Australia?

865
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 2: Just track to Netflix?

866
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:46,839
Speaker 3: Shall I put a deck together?

867
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

868
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 3: Put a deck wicked.

869
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 2: I've got a name for it. Instead of kicking the bucket,

870
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 2: it's kicking the poop cut.

871
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 3: Come on your Yeah. That was Bridget Delaney. Thank you

872
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 3: so much for listening. The new book that she's written

873
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: is called The Seeker and the Sage. And you'll be

874
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 3: very happy to know that the conversation we had about

875
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: kicking in the pouquette or kick the pouquette or whatever

876
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 3: we ended up with, that conversation carried on and Bridge

877
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 3: and I we are going to meet over coffee in

878
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 3: a couple of days to talk about what happens next.

879
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 3: So you know, if that ends up one day as

880
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 3: a multi season, multi part streaming series on a gigantic

881
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 3: megaopoly kind of video on demand publishing service, you can

882
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 3: say I heard the genesis of that moment. I'm not

883
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 3: even kidding It's going to be real fun. Thanks for listening.

884
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 3: Thanks to Adam Buncher, who produced the episode. We'll see

885
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 3: you Monday,