Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic
Speaker 1: psychologists and former UK cop Ern Sherrington. In part one,
Speaker 1: Earn explained the indicators that can suggest alone actor is
Speaker 1: planning an active mass violence. In part two, we talk
Speaker 1: about how you can intervene before an attack. This is
Speaker 1: an important discussion. Er Sherrington, welcome back Part two of
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: We left part one talking about loan actors and mass killings.
Speaker 1: And the type of things, the type of call it indicators,
Speaker 1: red flags, warning signs that potentially we can look out
Speaker 1: for to try and prevent these attacks, because this form
Speaker 1: of policing's different from the majority of policing in it's
Speaker 1: very proactive. If someone's got an ideology, when does that ideology,
Speaker 1: when do they start to act on it? When's that
Speaker 1: tipping point? We finished off in part two talking about
Speaker 1: some of those indicators. Is there any other things that
Speaker 1: you think we should discuss before we talk about how
Speaker 1: what we should do to try and prevent these.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, just to continue on the we call them
Speaker 3: indicators of warning signs.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: So we talked about grievance, which is almost like a
Speaker 3: thing that you would expect in most cases. There's some
Speaker 3: cases where mental health is the issue or dominates the issue,
Speaker 3: but even some of those there's still elements of grievance,
Speaker 3: but some not. So it's just a kind of caveat
Speaker 3: that slightly. But we talked about tipping points, flash points.
Speaker 3: Those are things to be concerned about. And what I'd
Speaker 3: say about that is if you already know someone has
Speaker 3: a major grievance and talking about kind of taking action
Speaker 3: and then there's a major event in their life or
Speaker 3: around the world, then that's when you should be concerned.
Speaker 3: Whether you know them as a friend, family, or whether
Speaker 3: you're part of an agency. It's the same difference, because
Speaker 3: once you get those things, it tends to accelerate. In
Speaker 3: the cases that we know about, we talked a little
Speaker 3: bit about preparation, So this is the idea that someone
Speaker 3: has to plan this, and they might do it over
Speaker 3: a week or longer more meticulously, but often it's only
Speaker 3: a few days and you might get strange behaviors and reconnaissance.
Speaker 3: But one of the things flag is that this is
Speaker 3: real world and online, so often you also get preparation
Speaker 3: online or comments online. So it might be someone might
Speaker 3: be in a forum and someone's talking about doing something,
Speaker 3: and what I'm interested in I suppose is that if
Speaker 3: you saw that as a member of the public, you
Speaker 3: might think, oh, that's weird and not do anything about
Speaker 3: it or was. What I'm trying to say is that
Speaker 3: for those cases where that's happened, it's an opportunity missed
Speaker 3: really right, you know, for someone to say there's this
Speaker 3: person online and they're talking about doing something. Obviously, sometimes
Speaker 3: people have Levardo don't they They.
Speaker 1: Just say stuff, Well, I was going to add there,
Speaker 1: like what yeah say, you'll probably say that that person
Speaker 1: deserves such and such or flippant comments. How do you
Speaker 1: distinguish between or differentiate between a comment that where people
Speaker 1: are saying is just passing offline to something that might
Speaker 1: be a little bit more sinister.
Speaker 3: I think if they say explicitly that they're going to
Speaker 3: carry out violence, yeah, or an attack, and it does,
Speaker 3: it does happen more than you would think, yeah, because
Speaker 3: it's better safe than sorry. In those situations. Often they
Speaker 3: just say. People just say things, particularly online where it's
Speaker 3: this idea.
Speaker 2: Of a keyboard warrior.
Speaker 3: People just say things that they don't mean. But it
Speaker 3: happens enough that I would say, if you saw that,
Speaker 3: you should be concerned. And obviously that person online might
Speaker 3: not be who they say they are. They might have
Speaker 3: a tag or a name that isn't them, But even
Speaker 3: so I think it's concerning, and we'll talk a little
Speaker 3: bit about why.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 3: The other the other side of this is as you
Speaker 3: get quite close to carry out an attack a person
Speaker 3: like this, they might start mentally preparing. And this kind
Speaker 3: of comes in different ways. But unlike in a good
Speaker 3: example is a serial killer, where perhaps the whole purpose
Speaker 3: of what they're doing is to stay secret and get
Speaker 3: away with it and carry on doing it. This is,
Speaker 3: I said, at the start, is like a blazer glory.
Speaker 3: It's their final moments. But they know that they're going
Speaker 3: to either die or go to prison. You know, they
Speaker 3: don't expect to survive one way or the other or
Speaker 3: continue their life as it is. If they're successful in
Speaker 3: what they're planning. And what's apparent is that that starts
Speaker 3: to dawn on them, the magnitude of it. It starts
Speaker 3: to affect them, and sometimes you'll see them behaving erratically.
Speaker 3: So they might at those stages late stages, start to
Speaker 3: kind of reach out to friends, family, or agencies. They
Speaker 3: might start to behave very strange cases. I've seen of
Speaker 3: people who are pacing up and down. They're very stressed
Speaker 3: and no one understands why. Or they might become very
Speaker 3: withdrawn and secretive and defensive and all these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: Obviously, these behaviors.
Speaker 3: In isolation aren't necessarily that meaningful, but if you put
Speaker 3: it all together, it's when you start to see it.
Speaker 3: And then the last part of that is it particularly
Speaker 3: people so if we talk about Islamist cases where there's
Speaker 3: this idea of martyrdom, so it's this idea of jahad
Speaker 3: or martyrdom where you the belief that they have is
Speaker 3: that they're going to heaven. If they carry out this
Speaker 3: action or attack, then they're kind of facing a transition
Speaker 3: into a different space. Right, But a lot of people
Speaker 3: were just scared of dying anyway. I mean, even if
Speaker 3: they're going to do this, they're still scared. But they've
Speaker 3: also got to say goodbye. They've got to kind of
Speaker 3: leave people they care about, all their things. So you
Speaker 3: might see this sorts of behaviors where people are acting
Speaker 3: like they're leaving, acting like they're moving to another country. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this is sort of indicators or warning signs. And then
Speaker 3: the last thing that you notice around the late stages
Speaker 3: is this idea of leakage behavior. So this is an
Speaker 3: academic term that's been used for many years, and it
Speaker 3: can be direct or indirect. So someone might actually tell
Speaker 3: someone that they're going to do it. Very often it's
Speaker 3: not like I'm going to do it next week, on
Speaker 3: this day at this place. Because they want to do it,
Speaker 3: they don't want anyone to stop them. But they might say,
Speaker 3: I'm going to do something about it, watch the news,
Speaker 3: something subtle, but you know, and sometimes you get indirect behavior,
Speaker 3: so you get kind of almost like a run through
Speaker 3: of the attack or references to other attacks. Look what
Speaker 3: they did there that you know, I'd like to do that,
Speaker 3: that kind of you.
Speaker 1: Know, fixation and keep bringing up one previous attackles something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So an attachment to that or a kind of interest.
Speaker 3: And then this last part, which is around this idea
Speaker 3: of being remembered. So if you think about, you know,
Speaker 3: the profile of a serial killer that they want to
Speaker 3: get away with it as long as possible. Sometimes when
Speaker 3: they're caught, they go to prison, but some of them
Speaker 3: do you know that's been seen before, They do kind
Speaker 3: of enjoy the notoriety. Well, in this case, they know
Speaker 3: they're not really going to get away with it in
Speaker 3: the sense that you know, in some senses, and they
Speaker 3: may lose their lives and they don't they don't want
Speaker 3: to be forgotten as if no one will ever know
Speaker 3: why they did it, but also who they are, and
Speaker 3: that's an important factor because that means that they need
Speaker 3: to tell someone. And sometimes you see it, you know,
Speaker 3: people would be aware of this, but sometimes you see
Speaker 3: it written down. They do some video online or they
Speaker 3: write down something or that, but often it's telling people
Speaker 3: close to them or people online why, and you don't
Speaker 3: often well, you sometimes see it after the event, but
Speaker 3: sometimes there's an opportunity for people to kind.
Speaker 2: Of put the flag up.
Speaker 3: And those sorts of behaviors are normally very close to
Speaker 3: the end, if you like, if they're going to go ahead,
Speaker 3: So it's really important to sort of think about why
Speaker 3: they might be saying those things. It might seem strange
Speaker 3: in the moment, but if you consider everything I've said,
Speaker 3: and you have all those ingredients in one place, then
Speaker 3: that's when people should come forward and say, this is
Speaker 3: what's happening.
Speaker 1: Okay, what you've described there, it's a broad rain of behaviors,
Speaker 1: but the in essence what you're saying is a change
Speaker 1: of change of behavior. And the people that would notice
Speaker 1: that are the people that are close to them to
Speaker 1: start with. So there's an onus on people close that's
Speaker 1: change of behavior. I've seen that investigating suicides where people
Speaker 1: have taken their own life. Quite often during the investigation
Speaker 1: there's that change of behavior where they're making peace with
Speaker 1: people that they've had falling out before, or there's a
Speaker 1: calmness that comes over them. So I suppose what you're
Speaker 1: saying here, if we're going to combat try to prevent
Speaker 1: these type of crimes, everyone's got a role to play.
Speaker 1: People that seeing someone that they might be close with
Speaker 1: that's changing their behaviors. And I take on board what
Speaker 1: you're saying also about threats of violence. If people are
Speaker 1: saying because the world has changed, you might have got
Speaker 1: a way of that thirty years ago, I'm going to
Speaker 1: kill this bloke. I'm going to do I'm going to
Speaker 1: do that. But we're all in a society that we're
Speaker 1: a little bit more cautious about that. So that is
Speaker 1: sort of stepping outside the norm. Isn't that if you're
Speaker 1: talking about violence, you're going to inflicked on someone.
Speaker 3: There's the truth to it that people do, do you know,
Speaker 3: working in the police, people make threats, say things that
Speaker 3: they never are going to do or never do anything
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 2: They do it. They do that. That is a thing.
Speaker 3: But these are so huge that the devastation the impact
Speaker 3: they have on people. In the context I've given, I
Speaker 3: think if someone says that they're intending to do an
Speaker 3: attack like this. Personally, I think every single one of
Speaker 3: those comments should be reported because it might not be
Speaker 3: every time they really meant it, but the end of
Speaker 3: the day, that's the head and often the ones that
Speaker 3: are successful. It's a strange word to use, but they
Speaker 3: they often do that, and it's and you can see it.
Speaker 3: You can see it in the cases afterwards, you know,
Speaker 3: but it's too late then, right, it's happened and lots
Speaker 3: of people have been killed. So if someone is saying
Speaker 3: that they tend to do something of this nature, personally,
Speaker 3: I think that's the biggest warning sign for me. It
Speaker 3: might not be true every time, but it only needs
Speaker 3: to be true once, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: You've worked coronial investigations and also the counter terrorism. Have
Speaker 1: you seen situations play out where when you're looking back
Speaker 1: that the people close to the person that's carried out
Speaker 1: the crime have come forward and said, look, these were
Speaker 1: the type of things. Is there a reluctance for people
Speaker 1: to come forward with the information that they know prior
Speaker 1: to the event.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it does happen, yes, To be fair,
Speaker 3: sometimes it's subtle and they wouldn't nessarily understand what I'm
Speaker 3: talking about. Yeah, they wouldn't piece that together. Perhaps someone
Speaker 3: who listened to this might because they've they're connecting it.
Speaker 3: But often families they talk about strange behavior or friends
Speaker 3: or which is why I emphasized in this idea that
Speaker 3: if it's blatant, if they're just saying they're going to
Speaker 3: do something, then that is very worrying because they're outwardly
Speaker 3: saying their intentions, and that happens and so, but the
Speaker 3: subtle behaviors is very difficult, you know, to spot, and
Speaker 3: it's a classic thing of hindsight. You know, you can
Speaker 3: almost make it fit right with a comment, can seem
Speaker 3: like it means something and all this, and until you
Speaker 3: look at it afterwards they've actually done it, the significance
Speaker 3: isn't there. But there's definitely a concern people have about reporting,
Speaker 3: and I think it's obviously sometimes it's loyalty and not
Speaker 3: wanting to get their friends or family into trouble. It's
Speaker 3: a concern about what the government or police will do,
Speaker 3: or the agencies or charities that work with people like this,
Speaker 3: they what might happen to them. The reason I feel
Speaker 3: so strongly about it is because I've been on both sides,
Speaker 3: Like in a sense, so I've supported people and tried
Speaker 3: to help them out of this process, but also I've
Speaker 3: seen the devastation and has a big effect on someone,
Speaker 3: you know, including police detectives. You know, it's I look
Speaker 3: at it and my desire to kind of look at
Speaker 3: the prevention of it. It comes from having seen the
Speaker 3: awful devastation that these things create. Huge mass cases like
Speaker 3: this devastate numbers and numbers of families. But they put
Speaker 3: fear into the community. But they also ruin the suspect's
Speaker 3: life and their famili's life too, you know, although there's
Speaker 3: no winners in this, you know, it's not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's possibly a way that the families need
Speaker 1: to look at it, Like the concern about coming forward,
Speaker 1: But is that concern unfounded? Like if someone reported, especially
Speaker 1: and I see you know, we're talking teenagers and young people,
Speaker 1: that parents would be beside themselves watching the way that
Speaker 1: their son or daughter is behaving and the things that
Speaker 1: are happening. And I can't understand the reluctance to he's
Speaker 1: been talking about blowing up such and such or doing
Speaker 1: that going to the police. How would the police, in
Speaker 1: your opinion, how would the police handle that if the
Speaker 1: information was provided provided to them.
Speaker 3: It really depends what stage it's at, you like, so
Speaker 3: if it's if it's kind of gone very far, they're
Speaker 3: likely to be arrested, you know, because they do start
Speaker 3: committing offenses if they've planned something, and you know, they've
Speaker 3: seriously planned it earlier on in that there's an opportunity
Speaker 3: to steer them out of it, and that there are
Speaker 3: sort of various programs around the world that support people
Speaker 3: to do that. And one of the things that I
Speaker 3: was involved in was this idea of protective factors, so
Speaker 3: putting in things that improve their lives, you know, not
Speaker 3: trying to debate their ideology or grievance, you know, which
Speaker 3: is so deep seated at that point it often makes
Speaker 3: it very difficult to get through to them. But often
Speaker 3: behind all of this is a sense of kind of
Speaker 3: hopelessness about their own lives. That's why they've connected to
Speaker 3: these subjects or these groups or and so protective factors
Speaker 3: are kind of trying to address some of that. And
Speaker 3: it's not too kind of make out like they're necessarily
Speaker 3: victims or you know, but it's in reality this sort
Speaker 3: of thing. It's a social issue, you know, it comes
Speaker 3: from from social issues.
Speaker 2: That's what I believe.
Speaker 3: And one of the most powerful ways to kind of
Speaker 3: actually stop someone and steer them away before they ruin
Speaker 3: their life and other people's lives is to kind of
Speaker 3: get involved with them and treat them with some support
Speaker 3: and protective factors to try and improve situations. It might
Speaker 3: be their living situation, it might be their family situation,
Speaker 3: you know, abuse things like that, but it might it
Speaker 3: might be simply a sense of helplessness. And when I
Speaker 3: talk about this stuff, the lines aren't clear. Like I'm
Speaker 3: emphasizing children because children can get involved, you know. Like
Speaker 3: the easiest way I can explain it is people would
Speaker 3: have seen that show Adolescence, you know, on TV, which
Speaker 3: is very powerful. But it's this idea of parents having
Speaker 3: a child capable of something that you would never imagine.
Speaker 3: So when that happens, people start to sense that it's
Speaker 3: like something to do with them.
Speaker 2: It's their fault, you see.
Speaker 3: And these are very complicated things, and I think that
Speaker 3: they often.
Speaker 2: Mean that people won't.
Speaker 3: Step forward because particularly parents and families, because they're so
Speaker 3: concerned they can't quite believe it themselves. You know that
Speaker 3: this person is capable of it, but obviously if someone's
Speaker 3: got much further down the line. Even if they're arrested,
Speaker 3: the whole thing is averted, which is huge. And so
Speaker 3: if they went all the way, it's worse. You know,
Speaker 3: this is a difficult subject, but it's the truth. You know,
Speaker 3: it's much worse to not intervene if you have a
Speaker 3: chance to.
Speaker 1: So I take on board what you're saying, and I
Speaker 1: understand that something that should be should be encourage the intervention.
Speaker 1: We talk about, yeah, of young males because quite often
Speaker 1: this is the way it plays out, breaking it down
Speaker 1: into the terrorist organizations where they see young males potentially
Speaker 1: as vulnerable. They're looking for whatever connection their life is lacking.
Speaker 1: They're looking for their tribe. Are these are the type
Speaker 1: of people that get exploited? And if I just put
Speaker 1: it in the category of people that hold the extreme ideologies,
Speaker 1: are these are the type of people that they exploit
Speaker 1: to carry the carry out their work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, there is a range. And the modern evolution
Speaker 3: of this is generally young people are being brought into
Speaker 3: this subject online and they're doing it by themselves. If
Speaker 3: you go back some years, it's not that it doesn't
Speaker 3: happen anymore, but you do get these situations where adults,
Speaker 3: if you like, would groom or radicalize a young person
Speaker 3: and get them to do their bidding or do their
Speaker 3: work for them. Over the years, I think what's happened
Speaker 3: is slight shift where people can be encouraged or even
Speaker 3: self radicalize themselves, even cases now where AI gets involved
Speaker 3: or in the middle of this, you know, so cases
Speaker 3: where certain AI models will interact with an attacker.
Speaker 1: And can support their ideology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like how to plan it as well, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's a slightly frightening sort of evolution. But yes,
Speaker 3: there's cases too still and probably historically more so, but
Speaker 3: where individuals are groomed, they're they're vulnerable and they're easily radicalized.
Speaker 3: But what I would say, even though that person may
Speaker 3: have been drawn into it, behind it is often still
Speaker 3: these issues around grievances and tipping points, you still have
Speaker 3: these problems in their lives. A lot, a lot of
Speaker 3: these cases aren't purely about the belief in the cause.
Speaker 3: You know, underneath it is a personal crisis or a
Speaker 3: personal kind of view of themselves. And so that's why
Speaker 3: with with younger people, they're almost easy targets because they'll
Speaker 3: pick someone who's vulnerable who's got a bad life and
Speaker 3: give them meaning and purpose and belonging and all this
Speaker 3: sort of things. So a very dark kind of approach really, but.
Speaker 1: They're very easy to exploit a young person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll select someone that's easy to exploit.
Speaker 1: I picked up on the fact that you said it's
Speaker 1: not the way to come at them head first and
Speaker 1: say no, your views are wrong, your ideology is wrong,
Speaker 1: and all that that can make them more withdrawn or
Speaker 1: add to their beliefs. What is the way to approach it?
Speaker 1: If you've got someone that doesn't have to be a
Speaker 1: young member of your family, it could be anyone. What
Speaker 1: if someone's expressing these extreme views, how what's the best
Speaker 1: way to deal with it on a personal level.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean it's worth emphasizing the fact that
Speaker 3: because it's because it's a grievance, it's so extreme. If
Speaker 3: you think someone's willing to go all the way to
Speaker 3: do an attack, it has to be at the high
Speaker 3: end of extreme, you know. And so often these people
Speaker 3: will hold these views, they've built them up, either you know,
Speaker 3: online or through other people, or by themselves or through
Speaker 3: other people. Trying to debate with them would be quite
Speaker 3: difficult and it's this idea, isn't it. Of like, if
Speaker 3: you've got a view, if someone argues against it, you
Speaker 3: become more entrenched in your view. Yeah, modern society now
Speaker 3: is very polarized, isn't it. It's kind of all or
Speaker 3: nothing post COVID, this idea that opinions are facts, and
Speaker 3: so it's very difficult actually to do that.
Speaker 1: I like that post COVID opinions of facts, But you're right.
Speaker 3: But what I'm what I'm getting at, I suppose is
Speaker 3: that by trying to debate with them, you're almost entrenching
Speaker 3: them further. They're finding more ways to defend their view.
Speaker 3: So it can it can work. I've seen it work.
Speaker 3: I've seen that sort of approach work. It very much
Speaker 3: depends on the type of person that's working with them.
Speaker 3: But often it's not a good way to start because
Speaker 3: they're coming from a place. You know, up here there
Speaker 3: are different places, so you need to find common ground,
Speaker 3: and often families, friends might be too close to the problem.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not they're not necessarily the right person.
Speaker 3: Where it works. The best I've seen it quite a
Speaker 3: lot is people that used to be extremists as kids,
Speaker 3: then they grow up perhaps and then they start to
Speaker 3: do work with younger people. They give up their views
Speaker 3: and they give up all this life, this difficult life
Speaker 3: of extremist views, and then they start to coach other
Speaker 3: young kids to give back and to try.
Speaker 2: And pull them out of it.
Speaker 3: And it kind of works with a sort of I
Speaker 3: think they're able to reach them on a respect level,
Speaker 3: as in they've they've been down the path and this
Speaker 3: is the way out of that path.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: It does, And there's a lot of merit for people.
Speaker 1: And I see this with offenders that go back into
Speaker 1: juvenile detention centers and say this is a path. They've
Speaker 1: got their attention because they can relate to them. We
Speaker 1: were where you were at one stage and this is
Speaker 1: what we're saying about the life. So I can see
Speaker 1: the benefits are there. What role does the media play
Speaker 1: in trying to reduce it?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: When you were saying in the preparation stage where people
Speaker 1: might go down that path, they're looking for notoriety, they're
Speaker 1: looking at high impact on what they're what they're about
Speaker 1: to do. I'm a big believer in I always have
Speaker 1: concerns where people become there's a tragedy and the offender's
Speaker 1: name is linked to that tragedy and not the victims.
Speaker 1: I know the media are a little bit more cautious
Speaker 1: on it. People are a little bit more cautious of
Speaker 1: not even giving identity of these people. And the thirst
Speaker 1: for information from the public will be there. Someone will
Speaker 1: always find out the name of the person responsible. But
Speaker 1: is there a role in the media, what we can
Speaker 1: control the media and there because social media is a
Speaker 1: life until itself, of making sure they don't get put
Speaker 1: up there on a pedestal or get to know the
Speaker 1: variety that they're looking for. Do you think that could
Speaker 1: make a difference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 3: I guess what's worth saying from my perspective is that
Speaker 3: it is a big part of it, particularly the modern cases.
Speaker 3: This evolution where it seems to be a big factor,
Speaker 3: particularly for people who are younger, is the notoriety to
Speaker 3: be remembered. Some of this nihilistic sort of violence I
Speaker 3: mentioned individuals sort of interested in that are interested in
Speaker 3: being kind of famous within their own world online and
Speaker 3: so when they when they decide to do something, they
Speaker 3: pick locations that are going to be going to make
Speaker 3: the front page, aren't they Or they're going to be
Speaker 3: iconic and remembered and strike fear and all this sort
Speaker 3: of thing. That's what they're thinking about generally, that they're
Speaker 3: doing that, but also they want to come out at
Speaker 3: the other end of it and kind of almost be
Speaker 3: better than the last one, which is a very difficult thing.
Speaker 3: But that is a I'm not saying that's their entire motivation,
Speaker 3: but that is a factor. As I said before, that
Speaker 3: kind of comes from as almost like a part of
Speaker 3: how they feel about themselves, low self worth. They want
Speaker 3: to kind of be more than that, you know, And
Speaker 3: that is a bit of a difficult one because obviously
Speaker 3: the media have to report these things, you know, it's
Speaker 3: really important. But there's lots of families of victims of
Speaker 3: these attacks that don't want to ever hear the suspect's
Speaker 3: name again. And I don't blame them. I understand that completely,
Speaker 3: and I'd feel the same if it was my loved one. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So I think for the media, it's probably just being
Speaker 3: tuned into the fact that actually how they adjust their reporting,
Speaker 3: I don't I don't entirely know, but what I would
Speaker 3: say is that some of these guys, this is exactly
Speaker 3: what they want. Is huge media coverage for as long
Speaker 3: as possible. And that's the kind of if you think
Speaker 3: about it from that side, it is quite a dark
Speaker 3: dark things. It's a very fine balance, isn't it, between
Speaker 3: giving them kind of exposure versus reporting what the public
Speaker 3: should know. You know, I think if you go over
Speaker 3: years hearing the name again, I try my hardest not
Speaker 3: to mention people's names if I can. Sometimes it's impossible
Speaker 3: not to. But go back to serial killers that are
Speaker 3: in prison for a long time, as there used to
Speaker 3: be on the front of the tabloids in the UK
Speaker 3: a lot even years years afterwards, and still yeah, and
Speaker 3: you think about the family that they're just they never
Speaker 3: forget obviously, but they maybe their life is okay and
Speaker 3: they're living it, and then they see the picture of
Speaker 3: their loved ones killer on the front of the paper
Speaker 3: in the street.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: That's what That's what I would say is important to
Speaker 3: remember every time, every time it's repeated, it kind of
Speaker 3: can really hurt.
Speaker 1: I asked you the other day, and I thought it
Speaker 1: was interesting just bringing clarity to it, because here we've
Speaker 1: had people with sovereign citizen ideology that have committed acts
Speaker 1: of violence, and it's normally what has been at law enforcement.
Speaker 1: Are they in the same category as loan actors or
Speaker 1: there's something that you said that I'd like to just explore,
Speaker 1: because I thought it was an interesting aspect that you
Speaker 1: divided that up from a loan actor sovereign citizens they
Speaker 1: want to be left alone. That's when people try to
Speaker 1: come to them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think these things evolve, and it is a
Speaker 3: lot to do with circumstance. I remember when I was
Speaker 3: a detective, younger detective, and I was involved in a
Speaker 3: like a manhunt for what would be described as sovereign citizens.
Speaker 3: So long story short, he was wanted for a minor offense.
Speaker 3: They tried to arrest him and he pointed a gun
Speaker 3: at one of the officers then disappeared. So it was
Speaker 3: kind of days of looking for him, and we managed
Speaker 3: to find him. And I was down at this site
Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, and they had the firearms team on
Speaker 3: foot and we were the arrest him. Were just detectives
Speaker 3: kind of minding our own business. Really, we ended up
Speaker 3: in the middle of it between the two, which was
Speaker 3: a bit of a probably one of the scariest moments.
Speaker 3: I've not the right place to go, no, and I'll
Speaker 3: never forget that, like that sense of yeah, but so
Speaker 3: that was interesting. But unlike Australia, that guy and others
Speaker 3: in the UK live amongst the community, if you like,
Speaker 3: because the UK has different geography, it's more compact. But
Speaker 3: my sense of it from that was that he and
Speaker 3: others tend to not want to follow any rule of law.
Speaker 3: I don't believe in the government. Often it's useful language,
Speaker 3: but often that comes from a grievance from the past,
Speaker 3: some running or issue that they might have had, but
Speaker 3: they've become more embedded into the view that so when
Speaker 3: it comes to any challenges from any legal challenges, authority
Speaker 3: challenges like that, they react in a certain way. Here
Speaker 3: you've had some cases. The geography is different. People can
Speaker 3: almost live off grigs. It's such a huge country and
Speaker 3: so in some ways they can end up doing that
Speaker 3: without ever seeing anyone for months or years. There are
Speaker 3: cases in America where sovereign citizens have planned, planned, sort
Speaker 3: of what you describe lone actor attacks things like that.
Speaker 3: So it has happened in America, UK and here it
Speaker 3: appears to be a reaction to a challenge. So the
Speaker 3: authority challenges them and then they react violently, But these
Speaker 3: things evolve, so it is a concerning thing. They tend
Speaker 3: to be older men, you know, rather than young people generally.
Speaker 3: As I say, the grievance is still there, but it's
Speaker 3: not necessarily all about lone acts. Where I describe this
Speaker 3: idea of going out in a blaze of glory, it
Speaker 3: might happen, yes, it might evolve, but often it's at
Speaker 3: this idea of a flashpoint where the challenge comes.
Speaker 1: In that someone's poking them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, you know that this is unavoidable,
Speaker 3: but their reaction to it is extreme, isn't it. So
Speaker 3: in many ways, the processes are there, they're just reordered
Speaker 3: a little bit. But when I talk about tip in
Speaker 3: points and flash points with loan actors, that's where the
Speaker 3: crossover kind of sits because it might be a challenge,
Speaker 3: but it might also be something that's happened to them
Speaker 3: in their life which has made them deteriorate and become
Speaker 3: more volatile, or it might be something that they're watching
Speaker 3: play out on TV, or do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3: So much of it is still there, but I personally
Speaker 3: have not seen cases in great detail where they're sort
Speaker 3: of planning the sort of loan actor attack type thing,
Speaker 3: but doesn't mean it doesn't happen or can't evolve that way.
Speaker 2: But it's obviously.
Speaker 3: That's why I think it's worth categorizing it slightly differently.
Speaker 1: No, that makes it so. I was interested when we
Speaker 1: spoke the other day, you clarified because I wasn't clear
Speaker 1: on the differences. But I think you've explained it well.
Speaker 1: You've got extensive experience in police, and you've got your
Speaker 1: academic background and your ongoing studies and your research. What
Speaker 1: do you think police, and I'm talking general as in
Speaker 1: police organizations need to focus on to minimize the risks
Speaker 1: of loan actors and mass mess attexts.
Speaker 3: I think generally it's about understanding this. What I'm describing,
Speaker 3: I think is the best way it's about.
Speaker 2: For me.
Speaker 3: Over the years, I've sort of realized that you the
Speaker 3: best way to reach people because I've trained people in this,
Speaker 3: you know, in law enforcement and wider than that, is
Speaker 3: to tune people in. There's a lot of information goes around,
Speaker 3: you know, and particularly if you're a police officer, say
Speaker 3: you're a police constable, Yeah, you know, you've got a
Speaker 3: million things to worry about. What I'm interested in is
Speaker 3: tuning people in enough they would see it. You know,
Speaker 3: they connect the dots because they've heard an input or
Speaker 3: a training and input something like that, or they've you know,
Speaker 3: and this is the same for the community. Really, is
Speaker 3: that if you see things, it's a bit like I
Speaker 3: was sort of trying. You know, let's take the example
Speaker 3: of there was a big thing in London. We had
Speaker 3: a lot of bombings back, you know, twenty years ago
Speaker 3: or so, and there's always this kind of if you
Speaker 3: see a bag, unattended bag, you know, you get the announcements,
Speaker 3: don't use sometimes newspapers, and I'm sure you have that
Speaker 3: here as well. It's kind of tuned people into that.
Speaker 3: They'll go, there's a bag over there and there's no
Speaker 3: one here, you know. And I remember riding the tube
Speaker 3: after the two thousand and five bombings in London, the
Speaker 3: seven seven, and that happened on one of the train.
Speaker 3: It was a day after, and you know, the people
Speaker 3: were shouting about that bag. There was nothing in it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's kind of it's the being tuned in so
Speaker 3: that you see it. If you've never heard of this,
Speaker 3: or you've never thought about how it happens or what
Speaker 3: you might see you're not going to react. But what
Speaker 3: I'm trying to do here is to make some of
Speaker 3: these warning signs a little bit like that bag. So
Speaker 3: if it doesn't matter if you're a police officer or
Speaker 3: you work for an agency or just a member of
Speaker 3: the community, because it's not as simple as it being
Speaker 3: a police problem. It stretches back. And so if you
Speaker 3: if you know someone or even if you don't, and
Speaker 3: you hear them talking about this sort of thing, it's
Speaker 3: the equivalent of that unattended bag. Yeah, you pick up
Speaker 3: the phone, you go online, you call the police, or
Speaker 3: you call someone, or you tell somebody, maybe you tell friend, parents, family, whatever,
Speaker 3: you're online and someone's talking like this, That's the way
Speaker 3: I would see it because most like the bag, most
Speaker 3: of the time it's nothing. Yeah, but this is like
Speaker 3: a metaphorical right.
Speaker 1: But I do understand what you're saying because we all
Speaker 1: became aware of that bag situation. Anytime you'd walk through
Speaker 1: an airport, the public transport, yeah, any locations and if
Speaker 1: you saw a bag that you are unattended looking round.
Speaker 1: So we did become aware of that.
Speaker 2: And think about it.
Speaker 3: Like I mean, these sorts of things I think about
Speaker 3: you know, obviously lots of people don't you know, it's
Speaker 3: probably not great, But nowadays a lot of these attacks
Speaker 3: are rudimentary, their knives and cars and things like that, Right,
Speaker 3: so you're not going to see necessarily as often maybe
Speaker 3: nowadays the bag, the barm and all this. Not saying
Speaker 3: it won't happen or never happen. Yeah, what I'm trying
Speaker 3: to say is some of these warning signs, which are
Speaker 3: kind of behaviors, are your metaphorical bag, unattended bag, the
Speaker 3: combination of them, but particularly this idea of leakage behavior,
Speaker 3: particularly if someone actually says that they're intending to be
Speaker 3: violent because of some issue they've got grievance ideology, cause
Speaker 3: that's what I would try and connect to it. And
Speaker 3: I'd say exactly the same to a police officer as
Speaker 3: I would to anyone. And because it's very difficult to
Speaker 3: spot this, it's not it's like a little bit like
Speaker 3: a needle in a haystack in the sense that you
Speaker 3: don't quite know who it's going to be.
Speaker 2: Previous roles.
Speaker 3: You know, I've personally had the responsibility for a number
Speaker 3: of people I've been concerned about, but that in a
Speaker 3: country can stretch two hundreds. You don't know which one
Speaker 3: is going to be. You can't just it's not minority report.
Speaker 3: You can't just guess, but you can you can sort
Speaker 3: of say someone's concerning. But what you do see is
Speaker 3: this kind of pathway or journey towards the attack. That's
Speaker 3: when you start to see things that are recognizable. So
Speaker 3: I'm coming at it from a different a different way
Speaker 3: of kind of warning signs.
Speaker 1: They're basically the only things we've got to go on.
Speaker 2: This is it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I said I said it before already. If
Speaker 3: you can stop one, you know, it's worthwhile. And ultimately,
Speaker 3: if someone says something that it didn't really mean, you know,
Speaker 3: you can clarify or it can be explained yet.
Speaker 1: Or if someone said something just by the police turning
Speaker 1: up and speaking to them, that might check them bit
Speaker 1: it might Okay, Yeah, I've got to rain that in
Speaker 1: with the policing the way it is now, do you
Speaker 1: think we've got access to experts like yourself in policing.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's a role to have more psychological
Speaker 1: input into it, more understanding of these type of crimes
Speaker 1: or potential for these crimes, because it's very difficult police
Speaker 1: by nature black and white thinking. Yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: the way we look at it as an offense been committed. Now,
Speaker 1: have we got the right people looking at this in
Speaker 1: law enforcement? And I'm not talking New South Wales, I'm
Speaker 1: not talking to the UK just across the board. Do
Speaker 1: you think there's a need to have people with the
Speaker 1: type of expertise that you bring to the table involved
Speaker 1: in this type of proactive investigation?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean largely speaking internationally, you do have psychologists
Speaker 3: or people with behavioral science backgrounds kind of involved in
Speaker 3: most countries. You know, it ranges of course for me,
Speaker 3: Like I've seen different countries do this in different ways.
Speaker 3: Some focus more in the community and some focus more
Speaker 3: on kind of detection and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 3: so there's a different emphasis.
Speaker 2: Where I've probably.
Speaker 3: Been most impressed is in America, where they have quite
Speaker 3: an open threat assessment community, where they did this kind
Speaker 3: of runs through law enforcement, but also runs through into education,
Speaker 3: social work, and mental health, all those kinds of things.
Speaker 2: They obviously have an issue there with school shooting, which.
Speaker 3: Is considerable, and like most things in life, like there's
Speaker 3: that's a reaction to that, isn't it. Like enough people
Speaker 3: have got together and said, how do we stop this
Speaker 3: because it's happening and happening and it's kids, you know,
Speaker 3: it's children, and that's right. But what's impressive about it
Speaker 3: is just how far it stretches the awareness of it.
Speaker 3: So rather than just seeing the aftermath again and again,
Speaker 3: you know, and having that view of it and that
Speaker 3: fear about it, they managed to kind of create almost
Speaker 3: like a structured movement there of training people to spot
Speaker 3: the signs within different agencies and things like that, and
Speaker 3: they're very proactive about it. So I find that approach
Speaker 3: is very interesting because it kind of sits where I
Speaker 3: do with it, where I think I think awareness is
Speaker 3: the way to go, because you're not you know, say
Speaker 3: you but I mean, law enforcement aren't going to stop
Speaker 3: every single one of this one of these you know,
Speaker 3: it's not possible even with the best will in the world,
Speaker 3: because it doesn't come from nowhere. But often the cases
Speaker 3: that you see aren't necessarily the priorities because they're not
Speaker 3: they're not showing that outwardly to law enforcement or other agencies,
Speaker 3: but they might be showing it online or within their
Speaker 3: family friend groups, so it's kind of it's not hidden,
Speaker 3: but it's it's you can't necessarily find every person with
Speaker 3: these extreme views and then follow them around every day
Speaker 3: of the week. You know, it's not realistic. So this
Speaker 3: is an alternative way to look at it is to
Speaker 3: make people aware so that when they see it, they're
Speaker 3: tuned in enough. They don't have to understand it completely,
Speaker 3: but they're tuned in enough to call in.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That's the emphasis.
Speaker 1: Fixated Person's units have been starting to evolve in law
Speaker 1: enforcement in this country. I see there's an expertise like
Speaker 1: the average police officer, and expertise because what you'r voutlined
Speaker 1: during our discussions here, there's a lot of depth to
Speaker 1: a lot of understanding. And I can confirm you're a
Speaker 1: psychologist because you never give a straight answer on the question, Sarah,
Speaker 1: you'll talk, there's always an alternative. Just told me yes
Speaker 1: or no. But you need people with that sort of
Speaker 1: understanding the subtlety of it, because there can be little
Speaker 1: warning signs. I always I had concerns with any time
Speaker 1: that I came across someone that was stalking, and because
Speaker 1: I saw the after effects as a homicide detective, Stalking
Speaker 1: to me is a red red flag that's come from
Speaker 1: experience and expertise that's built up over the years. We
Speaker 1: need place that fully understand the complexities of this and
Speaker 1: the subtleties of it, because it's not black and white,
Speaker 1: is it.
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I mean interesting these stalking is also could be described
Speaker 3: as a grievance fueld based violence, you know, because often
Speaker 3: that's it just changes because it's normally or mostly about
Speaker 3: rejection and control and things like that. But there's a
Speaker 3: kind of a grievance and an anger behind a lot
Speaker 3: of that too. So most crimes, violent crimes can be
Speaker 3: kind of viewed in that same way. But you're right,
Speaker 3: there is a need to understand it otherwise it just
Speaker 3: keeps happening and there's no kind of progression, you know,
Speaker 3: in terms of trying to reduce it. I think something
Speaker 3: that's always struck me about it is that it's viewed
Speaker 3: quite often as an unstoppable act, you know, random I
Speaker 3: think easters use it in the media a lot, random attack.
Speaker 3: It was a phrase really liked because I just don't
Speaker 3: think that's the case. There is something about how people
Speaker 3: get into this position, and it's easy to think about
Speaker 3: good and evil as well, you know, and all this
Speaker 3: sort of stuff. But I'm not so interested necessarily in
Speaker 3: why they do it, but more so in terms of
Speaker 3: what that tells you that can help you prevent it.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a big thing. That's what we've got a
Speaker 1: way for, isn't it. The prevention?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, you know, prevention is a massive thing.
Speaker 3: The motivation is a bit like as a detective you
Speaker 3: works on murder cases, your motivation to get the justice
Speaker 3: for the family, to solve the case, to get that
Speaker 3: person locked up, all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I've always had that too because I was a detective.
Speaker 3: This is the same thing. Really, it's just recognizing that
Speaker 3: you're trying to catch them before they do it and
Speaker 3: save an unknown family member. The worst thing about this
Speaker 3: sort of work, I suppose for personally or for people
Speaker 3: in this space, is that often you never know if
Speaker 3: they really were going to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3: So you're not necessarily top you know, you sometimes it's
Speaker 3: gets so close you can sense that it really was
Speaker 3: going to happen, but sometimes.
Speaker 2: You just you just never know.
Speaker 3: No, But that shouldn't I don't think that should stop
Speaker 3: you detrying. I mean, it's it is what it is.
Speaker 1: You know, hey, guys, it's Gary Jubilan here. Want to
Speaker 1: get more out of I Catch Killers, then you should
Speaker 1: head over to our new video feed on Spotify where
Speaker 1: you can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just
Speaker 1: search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app
Speaker 1: and start watching today. It's a difficult part of law enforcement.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of pressure there homicide, and
Speaker 1: people identify homicide as pressure. And yes, there is pressure
Speaker 1: when you're trying to catch find the person that's murdered someone.
Speaker 1: But this I would have sleepless nights if things were
Speaker 1: coming across my tables as soon your investigator, this person
Speaker 1: might be about to do this. Do we move on this?
Speaker 1: Do we not move on that? There's a lot of
Speaker 1: pressure trying to prevent crime rather than solving crime. I
Speaker 1: think there's an added pressure to preventing the crime.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's easy for me now to sort of
Speaker 3: talk about this from a point of view of, you know, generally,
Speaker 3: how do we prevent it? But certainly my career, like
Speaker 3: I've had, responsibility is probably the right word for people
Speaker 3: that might do this, and that pressure is real. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it's you talk about sleepless nights, but you.
Speaker 3: You know, often you'd wake up and the news had
Speaker 3: come on and someone's carried out an attack, and the
Speaker 3: first thing you think, which is a shame, but is
Speaker 3: that my person?
Speaker 2: You know? You think? Do you see what I mean
Speaker 2: so exactly?
Speaker 3: And I think I think detectives, You know, this isn't
Speaker 3: just in what I've done, but detectives generally do hold
Speaker 3: a lot of responsibility and wait on their should you know,
Speaker 3: I think it shouldn't be underestimated that you know generally
Speaker 3: what they have to do. You carry on with your
Speaker 3: job and you're professional, but you still have to carry
Speaker 3: in the back of your head the potential risk that
Speaker 3: might happen because you have or haven't done something, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it was Dave gall that I had on
Speaker 1: the head on the show here, and he was a
Speaker 1: friend through worked in homicide with him in different parts,
Speaker 1: but he ended up specializing in counter terrorism and he
Speaker 1: would wake up, he said that he'd wake up each
Speaker 1: morning and when it wasn't Lloyd's story or there wasn't
Speaker 1: something that happened, he'd think that was a good night.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's a strange feeling, yeah, and it is. I guess
Speaker 3: it's perfectly natural given what you're doing. I think sometimes
Speaker 3: people with detectives, they focus on the fact that they're
Speaker 3: there to investigate. But during an investigation, sometimes your suspect
Speaker 3: or you're the victim. Anything can happen. It's so unpredictable
Speaker 3: and things happen all the time. Yeah, and you sort
Speaker 3: of you balance all that risk, don't you.
Speaker 1: And I don't think if you invested in it, I
Speaker 1: don't think you feel fully appreciate the pressure until you
Speaker 1: step away from it. Yeah, you carry it and you
Speaker 1: think that's a norm, and then you step away from it.
Speaker 1: And what I'm not responsible for what happened overnight in
Speaker 1: this state.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I said to you offline. And so
Speaker 3: I moved it to Australia. My partner's from Australia, so
Speaker 3: we moved to Australia. We moved to like a initially
Speaker 3: we moved to like a beach town and I couldn't
Speaker 3: work in the first few months. So yeah, I was
Speaker 3: gone from being in the police to suddenly be in
Speaker 3: its most beautiful place like paradise, just you know, wandering
Speaker 3: around just thinking okay. And what was really strange was
Speaker 3: struggling slightly to actually relax because I'm so used to
Speaker 3: the pace of what i was doing before. But also
Speaker 3: just as you touch on there, so many things came
Speaker 3: back to me at that point I hadn't thought about
Speaker 3: for years because i'd left.
Speaker 2: It's like your.
Speaker 3: Brains go, okay, now you can think about these things again. See,
Speaker 3: you know, some good, some bad, but just a lot.
Speaker 3: It was a lot to kind of think about, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I process or I.
Speaker 1: Had a homicide detected from the UK here and he
Speaker 1: was talking about cases, and he said, the strange thing
Speaker 1: is now, when I was working the cases, I didn't
Speaker 1: feel the emotion attached. But now I've stepped away and
Speaker 1: I start talking about these cases and I'm overwhelmed with
Speaker 1: emotion from it. And then I suppose that's, yeah, just
Speaker 1: your way of coping when you're in the in the.
Speaker 3: I think, I think it's sort of you put a
Speaker 3: shield up daily, don't you sort of thing, and you don't.
Speaker 3: It's busy, you don't have time to really think about it.
Speaker 3: So something major might happen in one one shift or
Speaker 3: day and you go home and you think, wow, you know,
Speaker 3: but then you're back in the first thing the next
Speaker 3: day again there's something worse happens or more, you know,
Speaker 3: and so you never really get a moment to really
Speaker 3: take it in. So yeah, it's been interesting now because
Speaker 3: and I think, you know, as I say, feel lucky
Speaker 3: in a sense. But some people it's tough, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, I've seen colleagues that have hit the wall for
Speaker 1: a variety of reasons, and it's horrible to see them
Speaker 1: go from the people you know to what, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: pain and the emotions that they carry. But yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of people find their way out of it too,
Speaker 1: which is always good to see. And that's I hope
Speaker 1: your expertise has been I was going to say exploited
Speaker 1: probably not the right word, but utilized over here. Is
Speaker 1: this stuff that you're still doing and yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm able to educate people and train people on
Speaker 3: this subject. So I'm still able to do that and
Speaker 3: it's a really important thing for me too.
Speaker 2: So it's lovely to.
Speaker 3: Be able to share the expertise, you know, because it's
Speaker 3: the thing about being in the police, of being a detective,
Speaker 3: is that sense of meaning meaning for work, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: So I'm still able to do some of that, so
Speaker 3: that's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So.
Speaker 1: With your expertise just be aim. If it's not not
Speaker 1: utilized such a broad depth of experience, thank you we have.
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting you sign up and start policing again
Speaker 1: and we put you back in the uniform for two years.
Speaker 1: But over here, I'm not sure if it's the same
Speaker 1: in the UK. We're really struggling to attract people to policing.
Speaker 1: The recruiting is very difficult pretty much across the board
Speaker 1: in the Australia. Is it the same over in the
Speaker 1: UK from what you understand, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know the exact figures, but over time
Speaker 3: it's become more difficult. And also when I was well,
Speaker 3: I noticed a little bit too, is that a lot
Speaker 3: of uniform officers, you know, guys in the uniform stopped
Speaker 3: wanting to be detectives. And this is a kind of
Speaker 3: combination of things from like austerity cuts and numbers of
Speaker 3: officers and things like that. But I think what uniform
Speaker 3: officers worked out, or some of them, was that your
Speaker 3: shift would end and then a new kind of shift
Speaker 3: would come in behind you twenty four to seven, so
Speaker 3: you'd go home roughly on time unless there was a
Speaker 3: major Whereas detectives seem to just sort of carry on regardless.
Speaker 3: And yeah, see many many people sleep under their desks,
Speaker 3: and you know, I mean as a boss, you know,
Speaker 3: as in a you know, a detective. I used to
Speaker 3: have to tell people to go home. Sometimes I'd walk in.
Speaker 3: I couldn't work out if they've been at home or not.
Speaker 1: I always when the cloner would start cleaning at two
Speaker 1: o'clock and the.
Speaker 2: Yeah that nise. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I tried really hard as I became more senior to
Speaker 3: set an example and make sure I went home because
Speaker 3: it never stops. You could easily work twenty four to seven.
Speaker 3: But I think I think that puts people off because
Speaker 3: it's hard to have any life balance, isn't it when
Speaker 3: it's like that. And part of the problem is, I
Speaker 3: think you can do that when you're young, but if
Speaker 3: you have a family, a you're older, and you've got
Speaker 3: other commitments, it's very difficult. And so I think in
Speaker 3: terms of trying to recruit and things like that, that
Speaker 3: you know, it feels like that's one of the things
Speaker 3: you need to focus on a little bit more, is
Speaker 3: to make it more palatable. But as you would, well know,
Speaker 3: you're there at sort of I don't know ten o'clock
Speaker 3: at night. You've almost packed your bag to go home,
Speaker 3: haven't you, And then the phone rooms and then there's
Speaker 3: the biggest job of your life and you're there twelve
Speaker 3: hours later. Still, this is the truth of it. I
Speaker 3: laugh with friends who've done it. That's bad because it's
Speaker 3: horrendous hours, but it's also there was also an element
Speaker 3: of it which was just so exciting because anything can happen,
Speaker 3: you know, so it's also something that's good fun as well,
Speaker 3: you know, the job working in those sorts of situations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a pretty balanced view that you
Speaker 1: give of placing. Like I asked people, a lot of
Speaker 1: people that have been through long careers and would they
Speaker 1: do it all over again? And yeah, invariably it's yes.
Speaker 1: A couple of people said no, no way. It just depends.
Speaker 1: But I suppose the pressure that the work there is
Speaker 1: a reward too, and that that's what I And yeah,
Speaker 1: it does impact on your private life most definitely, and
Speaker 1: impact on lots of things, but there is a reward.
Speaker 1: And I think, and you're the psychologist, so you should
Speaker 1: probably add to this. Everyone wants to be a detective.
Speaker 1: You even wanted to be a detective as a psychologist. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we've just got an inquiry in mind. And
Speaker 1: that's why true crime or crime is so fascinating for people,
Speaker 1: because everyone wants to solve the crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Look, I mean it's the best job in the world. Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 3: you can't deny it.
Speaker 2: It's not. I sort of laugh, you know.
Speaker 3: I talked at the start about Sherlock Holmes and stuff,
Speaker 3: you know, and all these detective characters in fiction they
Speaker 3: have like problems, don't they pressure and all that, And
Speaker 3: I think I looked at it and thought I used
Speaker 3: to love all that. When you do it, you realize, well,
Speaker 3: they've only got one crime to solve, you know, They've
Speaker 3: they've got so much time compared to what an average
Speaker 3: detective would have. I used to run thirty crimes at
Speaker 3: a time, you know. And so it's kind of interesting
Speaker 3: how how it's played or played out, isn't it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so it is a great job.
Speaker 3: So when I was up at the beach wondering what
Speaker 3: to do, I started writing down kind of my my
Speaker 3: stories and stuff, because it it's always that there's it's
Speaker 3: such a the whole the whole thing is often built
Speaker 3: on kind of experience in its stories. And it's a
Speaker 3: fascinating job to do. Yeah, if anyone wants to do it,
Speaker 3: then go for it. It's a brilliant job.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, if you start talking about the book, you've got
Speaker 1: one customer here. I'll definitely buy.
Speaker 2: Buy your book.
Speaker 1: I think that that would that would be fascinating. Then
Speaker 1: that from from my own experience writing after I left
Speaker 1: the place, it was cathartic in a way, and the
Speaker 1: understanding what you did because you walk away from it
Speaker 1: and go what was that all about? And to break
Speaker 1: it down and you get it get and it made
Speaker 1: you realize the intensity of some of the things that
Speaker 1: you've been.
Speaker 3: For it And I think, you know, I described myself
Speaker 3: like you. I think you called me it. But it's
Speaker 3: fair like a geeky young geek ormst you know. It's
Speaker 3: like if you have a comfort zone, it just pushes
Speaker 3: you out of that. Yeah, you know, and you've come
Speaker 3: out at the other side a different person, really, you know,
Speaker 3: incredible journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well that's probably the advice I give to
Speaker 1: people if they're talking about police, I say, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: But the thing that you know that if you join
Speaker 1: the police and have a career in policing. That's going
Speaker 1: to change you as a person now if you want
Speaker 1: to pay that price or it might change it for
Speaker 1: the better, I don't know, but it will change you.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the most honest, genuine.
Speaker 2: Advice that's absolutely true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to give people inquiring, well, and thank you so
Speaker 1: much for your time. Fascinating. I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get you back on because I
Speaker 1: could delve in a lot further into your fascinating career,
Speaker 1: but also for your insights into what is now what
Speaker 1: I consider very concerning in that the loan actors and
Speaker 1: mass killings. It's something that we've all got to try
Speaker 1: and try and prevent. And as you highlighted today, it's
Speaker 1: not just from a policing PERSPECTI that Zebran's got to
Speaker 1: invest in this to make sure it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good message. So yeah, thanks for having
Speaker 3: me on.
Speaker 2: Cheers