WEBVTT - How to spot someone planning a mass attack: Ian Cherrington Pt. 2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:07.800 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.119 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.760 Welcome back to part two of my chat with forensic 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:53.720 psychologists and former UK cop Ern Sherrington. In part one, 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.000 Earn explained the indicators that can suggest alone actor is 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.639 planning an active mass violence. In part two, we talk 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.600 about how you can intervene before an attack. This is 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:10.920 an important discussion. Er Sherrington, welcome back Part two of 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:11.720 I Catch Killers. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:12.120 Thank you. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.800 We left part one talking about loan actors and mass killings. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.039 And the type of things, the type of call it indicators, 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.280 red flags, warning signs that potentially we can look out 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:28.760 for to try and prevent these attacks, because this form 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.840 of policing's different from the majority of policing in it's 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:37.040 very proactive. If someone's got an ideology, when does that ideology, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.800 when do they start to act on it? When's that 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.600 tipping point? We finished off in part two talking about 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.200 some of those indicators. Is there any other things that 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.680 you think we should discuss before we talk about how 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.720 what we should do to try and prevent these. 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.400 Yeah, so, just to continue on the we call them 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:54.600 indicators of warning signs. 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:55.480 Yeah. Absolutely. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:58.920 So we talked about grievance, which is almost like a 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.680 thing that you would expect in most cases. There's some 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.880 cases where mental health is the issue or dominates the issue, 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.840 but even some of those there's still elements of grievance, 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:14.079 but some not. So it's just a kind of caveat 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.560 that slightly. But we talked about tipping points, flash points. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.760 Those are things to be concerned about. And what I'd 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.600 say about that is if you already know someone has 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:27.760 a major grievance and talking about kind of taking action 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.560 and then there's a major event in their life or 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.200 around the world, then that's when you should be concerned. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.240 Whether you know them as a friend, family, or whether 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.000 you're part of an agency. It's the same difference, because 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.800 once you get those things, it tends to accelerate. In 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:45.920 the cases that we know about, we talked a little 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.520 bit about preparation, So this is the idea that someone 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.160 has to plan this, and they might do it over 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.040 a week or longer more meticulously, but often it's only 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.720 a few days and you might get strange behaviors and reconnaissance. 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:01.160 But one of the things flag is that this is 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:06.160 real world and online, so often you also get preparation 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.680 online or comments online. So it might be someone might 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.320 be in a forum and someone's talking about doing something, 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:14.840 and what I'm interested in I suppose is that if 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.160 you saw that as a member of the public, you 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.919 might think, oh, that's weird and not do anything about 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.960 it or was. What I'm trying to say is that 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.480 for those cases where that's happened, it's an opportunity missed 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.360 really right, you know, for someone to say there's this 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.400 person online and they're talking about doing something. Obviously, sometimes 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.400 people have Levardo don't they They. 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.160 Just say stuff, Well, I was going to add there, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.680 like what yeah say, you'll probably say that that person 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.880 deserves such and such or flippant comments. How do you 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.200 distinguish between or differentiate between a comment that where people 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.920 are saying is just passing offline to something that might 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.080 be a little bit more sinister. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:01.440 I think if they say explicitly that they're going to 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.520 carry out violence, yeah, or an attack, and it does, 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.600 it does happen more than you would think, yeah, because 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.680 it's better safe than sorry. In those situations. Often they 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.400 just say. People just say things, particularly online where it's 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:15.240 this idea. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.120 Of a keyboard warrior. 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.000 People just say things that they don't mean. But it 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.080 happens enough that I would say, if you saw that, 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.839 you should be concerned. And obviously that person online might 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:28.839 not be who they say they are. They might have 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:32.360 a tag or a name that isn't them, But even 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.760 so I think it's concerning, and we'll talk a little 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:36.400 bit about why. 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:36.920 So. 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:38.719 The other the other side of this is as you 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.040 get quite close to carry out an attack a person 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.160 like this, they might start mentally preparing. And this kind 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:49.120 of comes in different ways. But unlike in a good 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.680 example is a serial killer, where perhaps the whole purpose 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:53.720 of what they're doing is to stay secret and get 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.039 away with it and carry on doing it. This is, 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.359 I said, at the start, is like a blazer glory. 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.240 It's their final moments. But they know that they're going 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.960 to either die or go to prison. You know, they 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.719 don't expect to survive one way or the other or 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.560 continue their life as it is. If they're successful in 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.040 what they're planning. And what's apparent is that that starts 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.680 to dawn on them, the magnitude of it. It starts 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:19.600 to affect them, and sometimes you'll see them behaving erratically. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.600 So they might at those stages late stages, start to 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.680 kind of reach out to friends, family, or agencies. They 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.760 might start to behave very strange cases. I've seen of 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.880 people who are pacing up and down. They're very stressed 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.360 and no one understands why. Or they might become very 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.760 withdrawn and secretive and defensive and all these sorts of things. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:42.640 Obviously, these behaviors. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.160 In isolation aren't necessarily that meaningful, but if you put 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.520 it all together, it's when you start to see it. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.480 And then the last part of that is it particularly 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.760 people so if we talk about Islamist cases where there's 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.719 this idea of martyrdom, so it's this idea of jahad 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.200 or martyrdom where you the belief that they have is 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:02.880 that they're going to heaven. If they carry out this 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.800 action or attack, then they're kind of facing a transition 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.799 into a different space. Right, But a lot of people 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.360 were just scared of dying anyway. I mean, even if 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.400 they're going to do this, they're still scared. But they've 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.520 also got to say goodbye. They've got to kind of 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.960 leave people they care about, all their things. So you 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.719 might see this sorts of behaviors where people are acting 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.200 like they're leaving, acting like they're moving to another country. Yeah, 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.320 this is sort of indicators or warning signs. And then 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.800 the last thing that you notice around the late stages 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.600 is this idea of leakage behavior. So this is an 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.520 academic term that's been used for many years, and it 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.600 can be direct or indirect. So someone might actually tell 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.159 someone that they're going to do it. Very often it's 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.400 not like I'm going to do it next week, on 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.400 this day at this place. Because they want to do it, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.400 they don't want anyone to stop them. But they might say, 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.880 I'm going to do something about it, watch the news, 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:09.440 something subtle, but you know, and sometimes you get indirect behavior, 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.640 so you get kind of almost like a run through 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:19.640 of the attack or references to other attacks. Look what 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:22.280 they did there that you know, I'd like to do that, 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:23.120 that kind of you. 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.440 Know, fixation and keep bringing up one previous attackles something 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:27.880 like that. 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.840 Yeah, So an attachment to that or a kind of interest. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.200 And then this last part, which is around this idea 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.120 of being remembered. So if you think about, you know, 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.040 the profile of a serial killer that they want to 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.880 get away with it as long as possible. Sometimes when 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.720 they're caught, they go to prison, but some of them 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.320 do you know that's been seen before, They do kind 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.760 of enjoy the notoriety. Well, in this case, they know 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.440 they're not really going to get away with it in 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.880 the sense that you know, in some senses, and they 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.240 may lose their lives and they don't they don't want 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.760 to be forgotten as if no one will ever know 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.680 why they did it, but also who they are, and 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.640 that's an important factor because that means that they need 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.600 to tell someone. And sometimes you see it, you know, 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:14.560 people would be aware of this, but sometimes you see 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.680 it written down. They do some video online or they 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.760 write down something or that, but often it's telling people 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:26.520 close to them or people online why, and you don't 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.160 often well, you sometimes see it after the event, but 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.560 sometimes there's an opportunity for people to kind. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:34.520 Of put the flag up. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.840 And those sorts of behaviors are normally very close to 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.880 the end, if you like, if they're going to go ahead, 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.600 So it's really important to sort of think about why 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:45.920 they might be saying those things. It might seem strange 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.679 in the moment, but if you consider everything I've said, 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.480 and you have all those ingredients in one place, then 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.560 that's when people should come forward and say, this is 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:56.240 what's happening. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.760 Okay, what you've described there, it's a broad rain of behaviors, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.720 but the in essence what you're saying is a change 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.520 of change of behavior. And the people that would notice 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.520 that are the people that are close to them to 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:16.960 start with. So there's an onus on people close that's 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.080 change of behavior. I've seen that investigating suicides where people 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.640 have taken their own life. Quite often during the investigation 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.440 there's that change of behavior where they're making peace with 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.000 people that they've had falling out before, or there's a 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.280 calmness that comes over them. So I suppose what you're 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.480 saying here, if we're going to combat try to prevent 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.080 these type of crimes, everyone's got a role to play. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.320 People that seeing someone that they might be close with 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.240 that's changing their behaviors. And I take on board what 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.520 you're saying also about threats of violence. If people are 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.840 saying because the world has changed, you might have got 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:58.760 a way of that thirty years ago, I'm going to 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:00.600 kill this bloke. I'm going to do I'm going to 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.240 do that. But we're all in a society that we're 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.360 a little bit more cautious about that. So that is 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.320 sort of stepping outside the norm. Isn't that if you're 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.760 talking about violence, you're going to inflicked on someone. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.200 There's the truth to it that people do, do you know, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.440 working in the police, people make threats, say things that 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.560 they never are going to do or never do anything 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:17.839 about it. 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:19.560 They do it. They do that. That is a thing. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:24.680 But these are so huge that the devastation the impact 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.560 they have on people. In the context I've given, I 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.960 think if someone says that they're intending to do an 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.520 attack like this. Personally, I think every single one of 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.840 those comments should be reported because it might not be 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.760 every time they really meant it, but the end of 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.800 the day, that's the head and often the ones that 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.400 are successful. It's a strange word to use, but they 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.080 they often do that, and it's and you can see it. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.280 You can see it in the cases afterwards, you know, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.160 but it's too late then, right, it's happened and lots 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.280 of people have been killed. So if someone is saying 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.160 that they tend to do something of this nature, personally, 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.320 I think that's the biggest warning sign for me. It 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.360 might not be true every time, but it only needs 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:09.400 to be true once, right. 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:10.680 Yeah, exactly. 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:17.080 You've worked coronial investigations and also the counter terrorism. Have 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.880 you seen situations play out where when you're looking back 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.120 that the people close to the person that's carried out 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.200 the crime have come forward and said, look, these were 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:31.040 the type of things. Is there a reluctance for people 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.640 to come forward with the information that they know prior 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:35.199 to the event. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.319 Yeah, I mean it does happen, yes, To be fair, 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.000 sometimes it's subtle and they wouldn't nessarily understand what I'm 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.040 talking about. Yeah, they wouldn't piece that together. Perhaps someone 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.560 who listened to this might because they've they're connecting it. 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:54.120 But often families they talk about strange behavior or friends 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.600 or which is why I emphasized in this idea that 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.840 if it's blatant, if they're just saying they're going to 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.040 do something, then that is very worrying because they're outwardly 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.520 saying their intentions, and that happens and so, but the 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.400 subtle behaviors is very difficult, you know, to spot, and 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.800 it's a classic thing of hindsight. You know, you can 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.839 almost make it fit right with a comment, can seem 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.320 like it means something and all this, and until you 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.520 look at it afterwards they've actually done it, the significance 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:27.040 isn't there. But there's definitely a concern people have about reporting, 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.000 and I think it's obviously sometimes it's loyalty and not 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.120 wanting to get their friends or family into trouble. It's 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.839 a concern about what the government or police will do, 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.840 or the agencies or charities that work with people like this, 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.160 they what might happen to them. The reason I feel 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.960 so strongly about it is because I've been on both sides, 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.920 Like in a sense, so I've supported people and tried 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.400 to help them out of this process, but also I've 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.680 seen the devastation and has a big effect on someone, 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.319 you know, including police detectives. You know, it's I look 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.520 at it and my desire to kind of look at 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.360 the prevention of it. It comes from having seen the 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:11.679 awful devastation that these things create. Huge mass cases like 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.520 this devastate numbers and numbers of families. But they put 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.280 fear into the community. But they also ruin the suspect's 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.320 life and their famili's life too, you know, although there's 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:24.760 no winners in this, you know, it's not. 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.480 Yeah, and that's possibly a way that the families need 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.840 to look at it, Like the concern about coming forward, 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:37.720 But is that concern unfounded? Like if someone reported, especially 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:42.480 and I see you know, we're talking teenagers and young people, 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.240 that parents would be beside themselves watching the way that 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.600 their son or daughter is behaving and the things that 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.280 are happening. And I can't understand the reluctance to he's 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.200 been talking about blowing up such and such or doing 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.360 that going to the police. How would the police, in 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.320 your opinion, how would the police handle that if the 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.000 information was provided provided to them. 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.920 It really depends what stage it's at, you like, so 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.680 if it's if it's kind of gone very far, they're 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.640 likely to be arrested, you know, because they do start 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.280 committing offenses if they've planned something, and you know, they've 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.320 seriously planned it earlier on in that there's an opportunity 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.800 to steer them out of it, and that there are 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.520 sort of various programs around the world that support people 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.080 to do that. And one of the things that I 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.480 was involved in was this idea of protective factors, so 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.800 putting in things that improve their lives, you know, not 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:41.000 trying to debate their ideology or grievance, you know, which 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.880 is so deep seated at that point it often makes 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.440 it very difficult to get through to them. But often 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.560 behind all of this is a sense of kind of 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.640 hopelessness about their own lives. That's why they've connected to 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.240 these subjects or these groups or and so protective factors 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.480 are kind of trying to address some of that. And 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.680 it's not too kind of make out like they're necessarily 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:06.120 victims or you know, but it's in reality this sort 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.760 of thing. It's a social issue, you know, it comes 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.320 from from social issues. 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:11.160 That's what I believe. 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.560 And one of the most powerful ways to kind of 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.960 actually stop someone and steer them away before they ruin 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.840 their life and other people's lives is to kind of 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.120 get involved with them and treat them with some support 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.920 and protective factors to try and improve situations. It might 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.720 be their living situation, it might be their family situation, 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.840 you know, abuse things like that, but it might it 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.560 might be simply a sense of helplessness. And when I 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.240 talk about this stuff, the lines aren't clear. Like I'm 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.400 emphasizing children because children can get involved, you know. Like 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.960 the easiest way I can explain it is people would 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.560 have seen that show Adolescence, you know, on TV, which 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.400 is very powerful. But it's this idea of parents having 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.640 a child capable of something that you would never imagine. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.400 So when that happens, people start to sense that it's 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:04.480 like something to do with them. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.400 It's their fault, you see. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.800 And these are very complicated things, and I think that 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.680 they often. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:13.480 Mean that people won't. 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.080 Step forward because particularly parents and families, because they're so 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.080 concerned they can't quite believe it themselves. You know that 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.400 this person is capable of it, but obviously if someone's 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.760 got much further down the line. Even if they're arrested, 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:31.360 the whole thing is averted, which is huge. And so 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.680 if they went all the way, it's worse. You know, 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.520 this is a difficult subject, but it's the truth. You know, 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.440 it's much worse to not intervene if you have a 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:41.960 chance to. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.560 So I take on board what you're saying, and I 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:50.120 understand that something that should be should be encourage the intervention. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.240 We talk about, yeah, of young males because quite often 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.600 this is the way it plays out, breaking it down 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:04.800 into the terrorist organizations where they see young males potentially 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:09.359 as vulnerable. They're looking for whatever connection their life is lacking. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.080 They're looking for their tribe. Are these are the type 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.800 of people that get exploited? And if I just put 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:20.960 it in the category of people that hold the extreme ideologies, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.000 are these are the type of people that they exploit 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:24.880 to carry the carry out their work. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.240 Yeah, Look, there is a range. And the modern evolution 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.600 of this is generally young people are being brought into 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.560 this subject online and they're doing it by themselves. If 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.880 you go back some years, it's not that it doesn't 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.040 happen anymore, but you do get these situations where adults, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.760 if you like, would groom or radicalize a young person 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.320 and get them to do their bidding or do their 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.560 work for them. Over the years, I think what's happened 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.480 is slight shift where people can be encouraged or even 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:03.480 self radicalize themselves, even cases now where AI gets involved 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.160 or in the middle of this, you know, so cases 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.360 where certain AI models will interact with an attacker. 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:11.959 And can support their ideology. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.199 Yeah, like how to plan it as well, you know. 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:20.160 So it's a slightly frightening sort of evolution. But yes, 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.679 there's cases too still and probably historically more so, but 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:31.400 where individuals are groomed, they're they're vulnerable and they're easily radicalized. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.800 But what I would say, even though that person may 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.199 have been drawn into it, behind it is often still 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:42.959 these issues around grievances and tipping points, you still have 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.800 these problems in their lives. A lot, a lot of 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.520 these cases aren't purely about the belief in the cause. 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.520 You know, underneath it is a personal crisis or a 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:57.840 personal kind of view of themselves. And so that's why 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:04.240 with with younger people, they're almost easy targets because they'll 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.239 pick someone who's vulnerable who's got a bad life and 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.040 give them meaning and purpose and belonging and all this 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:14.400 sort of things. So a very dark kind of approach really, but. 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.920 They're very easy to exploit a young person. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.080 Yeah, they'll select someone that's easy to exploit. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.080 I picked up on the fact that you said it's 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.719 not the way to come at them head first and 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.720 say no, your views are wrong, your ideology is wrong, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.000 and all that that can make them more withdrawn or 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.879 add to their beliefs. What is the way to approach it? 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:41.080 If you've got someone that doesn't have to be a 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.399 young member of your family, it could be anyone. What 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:48.000 if someone's expressing these extreme views, how what's the best 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.000 way to deal with it on a personal level. 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.399 Yeah, so, I mean it's worth emphasizing the fact that 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.919 because it's because it's a grievance, it's so extreme. If 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.439 you think someone's willing to go all the way to 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.920 do an attack, it has to be at the high 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:10.080 end of extreme, you know. And so often these people 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.280 will hold these views, they've built them up, either you know, 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.600 online or through other people, or by themselves or through 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.080 other people. Trying to debate with them would be quite 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.800 difficult and it's this idea, isn't it. Of like, if 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.119 you've got a view, if someone argues against it, you 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.800 become more entrenched in your view. Yeah, modern society now 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.639 is very polarized, isn't it. It's kind of all or 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.439 nothing post COVID, this idea that opinions are facts, and 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.679 so it's very difficult actually to do that. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.680 I like that post COVID opinions of facts, But you're right. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:47.879 But what I'm what I'm getting at, I suppose is 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:53.200 that by trying to debate with them, you're almost entrenching 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:58.080 them further. They're finding more ways to defend their view. 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.040 So it can it can work. I've seen it work. 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.000 I've seen that sort of approach work. It very much 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.600 depends on the type of person that's working with them. 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:10.280 But often it's not a good way to start because 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.000 they're coming from a place. You know, up here there 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.399 are different places, so you need to find common ground, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.560 and often families, friends might be too close to the problem. 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.399 You know, it's not they're not necessarily the right person. 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:25.480 Where it works. The best I've seen it quite a 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.000 lot is people that used to be extremists as kids, 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.199 then they grow up perhaps and then they start to 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.720 do work with younger people. They give up their views 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.320 and they give up all this life, this difficult life 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.360 of extremist views, and then they start to coach other 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:44.680 young kids to give back and to try. 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:45.520 And pull them out of it. 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.600