1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:10,110 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. On Wednesday night, ASIO Director- General Mike Burgess made 3 00:00:10,110 --> 00:00:13,139 Sean Aylmer: a number of startling revelations in a Canberra speech. He 4 00:00:13,139 --> 00:00:17,879 Sean Aylmer: revealed a sophisticated foreign interference operation that allegedly saw a 5 00:00:17,879 --> 00:00:22,530 Sean Aylmer: former politician cultivated and recruited. Burgess went on to say 6 00:00:22,530 --> 00:00:26,340 Sean Aylmer: this politician sold out their country, party, and former colleagues 7 00:00:26,340 --> 00:00:29,849 Sean Aylmer: to advance the interests of the foreign regime. This was 8 00:00:29,849 --> 00:00:33,059 Sean Aylmer: apparently the work of an A- team, a dedicated unit 9 00:00:33,059 --> 00:00:37,800 Sean Aylmer: within another country's intelligence service that focused primarily on Australia. 10 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:40,530 Sean Aylmer: The ASIO chief was at pains to point out that 11 00:00:40,530 --> 00:00:43,560 Sean Aylmer: while this team was aggressive and experienced, ASIO and its 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,889 Sean Aylmer: partners have been able to map out its activities and 13 00:00:46,889 --> 00:00:49,830 Sean Aylmer: identify its members. This is a very complex issue and 14 00:00:49,830 --> 00:00:52,649 Sean Aylmer: a pretty confronting one too, to think that Australia is 15 00:00:52,650 --> 00:00:55,920 Sean Aylmer: a primary target for a foreign entity and that they 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,740 Sean Aylmer: may have succeeded in recruiting a former politician to help 17 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:01,950 Sean Aylmer: them. My guest today knows this world better than most. 18 00:01:02,010 --> 00:01:05,580 Sean Aylmer: Michael Shoebridge is the founder and director of defense and 19 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:10,349 Sean Aylmer: security think tank, Strategic Analysis Australia. He was previously the director 20 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:13,800 Sean Aylmer: of the Defence, Strategy and National Security Program at the 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,550 Sean Aylmer: Australian Strategic Policy Institute in Canberra. And prior to that, 22 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:21,059 Sean Aylmer: held a senior role within Australia's intelligence agencies. Michael Shoebridge, 23 00:01:21,059 --> 00:01:22,140 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 24 00:01:22,740 --> 00:01:24,059 Michael Shoebridge: Sean, great to talk with you. 25 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,149 Sean Aylmer: What did you make of Mike Burgess's speech the other night? 26 00:01:28,049 --> 00:01:31,350 Michael Shoebridge: I think it's a fine thing to have the head 27 00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:35,340 Michael Shoebridge: of our domestic security agency stand up and tell the 28 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:38,789 Michael Shoebridge: Australian public what are the kind of threats that are 29 00:01:38,789 --> 00:01:44,459 Michael Shoebridge: confronting Australia and what's ASIO doing about them. But beyond 30 00:01:44,459 --> 00:01:47,730 Michael Shoebridge: that, I think he told us some very disturbing things 31 00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:51,240 Michael Shoebridge: that other people in Australia need to act upon. 32 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,540 Sean Aylmer: Was he right to tell us that stuff, do you think? 33 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:59,849 Michael Shoebridge: Absolutely. He didn't give away any secrets about how ASIO 34 00:01:59,849 --> 00:02:03,690 Michael Shoebridge: does its work, anything that would be valuable to these 35 00:02:03,690 --> 00:02:07,620 Michael Shoebridge: foreign intelligence agencies that are seeking to harm Australia's interests. 36 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,780 Michael Shoebridge: But when he told us that two Australian politicians have 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,629 Michael Shoebridge: been caught working for a foreign country's spy agency, I 38 00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:21,240 Michael Shoebridge: think that was the most disturbing thing we heard. The 39 00:02:21,419 --> 00:02:26,730 Michael Shoebridge: stuff about terrorism, very important. Cyber intrusions, very important. But 40 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:31,020 Michael Shoebridge: it was really the success of this foreign spy outfit in 41 00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:34,890 Michael Shoebridge: recruiting two Australian politicians that was most disturbing to me. 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,400 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's just talk about that part of his 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,638 Sean Aylmer: speech. Over the past 24 hours, we've had opposition leader 44 00:02:41,699 --> 00:02:44,580 Sean Aylmer: Peter Dutton come out saying we need a name of 45 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:47,730 Sean Aylmer: that former politician. You mentioned two, but we seem to 46 00:02:47,730 --> 00:02:50,940 Sean Aylmer: be focusing on one of them here. Former Treasurer Joe 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,700 Sean Aylmer: Hockey came out, basically said the person was a traitor and should 48 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,540 Sean Aylmer: be named to avoid other former politicians being smeared. Defense 49 00:02:57,540 --> 00:02:59,190 Sean Aylmer: Minister Richard Marles has come out and said, " No, no, 50 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:01,320 Sean Aylmer: we're not going to do that." Where do you stand 51 00:03:01,410 --> 00:03:04,590 Sean Aylmer: on that? Why would you name the person and why 52 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:05,790 Sean Aylmer: wouldn't you name the person? 53 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:09,599 Michael Shoebridge: Well, I think this is a pretty simple issue. I 54 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:13,349 Michael Shoebridge: don't think it's the ASIO chief's job to name the 55 00:03:13,349 --> 00:03:17,699 Michael Shoebridge: Australian politician, but I think it is the ASIO chief's 56 00:03:17,699 --> 00:03:20,489 Michael Shoebridge: job to have done the work they've done to gather 57 00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:25,260 Michael Shoebridge: the information that says two Australian politicians, but let's focus 58 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:29,160 Michael Shoebridge: on the one who is an ex- politician. He's done 59 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,340 Michael Shoebridge: the work to gather the information to say, yes, it's 60 00:03:32,340 --> 00:03:35,340 Michael Shoebridge: a foreign country's spy agency. Yes, this politician has been 61 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:39,900 Michael Shoebridge: working with them. This politician, in Mike Burgess's words, his 62 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:43,290 Michael Shoebridge: words were, " They've sold out their country." This person, this 63 00:03:43,650 --> 00:03:46,980 Michael Shoebridge: former politician has sold out their country, and they've even 64 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:53,189 Michael Shoebridge: introduced their spy handlers, suggested that they try and recruit 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,420 Michael Shoebridge: someone in the prime minister's family. So he's done his 66 00:03:57,420 --> 00:04:02,190 Michael Shoebridge: job. What should happen now? Well, we've got espionage laws 67 00:04:02,190 --> 00:04:06,150 Michael Shoebridge: in the country, and we've had them since 1914. It's 68 00:04:06,150 --> 00:04:09,539 Michael Shoebridge: a crime to act at the direction of a foreign 69 00:04:09,540 --> 00:04:13,260 Michael Shoebridge: power to damage the security of Australia. It was a 70 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:15,990 Michael Shoebridge: crime at the time this politician was doing what they're 71 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:18,540 Michael Shoebridge: doing. This is a case where there should be a 72 00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:22,770 Michael Shoebridge: criminal prosecution brought by the attorney general, backed by the 73 00:04:22,770 --> 00:04:25,950 Michael Shoebridge: federal police and the director of public prosecutions. So it's 74 00:04:25,950 --> 00:04:29,219 Michael Shoebridge: not ASIO's job. He's done the right thing, but he's 75 00:04:29,219 --> 00:04:32,190 Michael Shoebridge: now passed the ball, and a prosecution should happen. 76 00:04:32,910 --> 00:04:35,370 Sean Aylmer: So has he passed the ball? Has he given that 77 00:04:35,370 --> 00:04:37,050 Sean Aylmer: information to the federal police? 78 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:41,188 Michael Shoebridge: Well, he's provided a whole bunch of it publicly. And in fact, 79 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:45,390 Michael Shoebridge: the amount of information he provided was extraordinary. He said 80 00:04:45,779 --> 00:04:49,290 Michael Shoebridge: that this is done by this A- team. A foreign country's 81 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:52,680 Michael Shoebridge: intelligence service has a particular team devoted to doing this 82 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,010 Michael Shoebridge: to Australia, and they've had outrageous success. And he also 83 00:04:56,010 --> 00:05:00,328 Michael Shoebridge: told us that the politician was confronted about it, and 84 00:05:00,330 --> 00:05:02,820 Michael Shoebridge: so he's sure he won't do it again, but the 85 00:05:02,820 --> 00:05:06,990 Michael Shoebridge: harm has been caused. So he's got enough information to 86 00:05:06,990 --> 00:05:12,089 Michael Shoebridge: do those things. That's the start of a brief for prosecution. 87 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:14,550 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Michael. We'll be back in a minute. 88 00:05:21,059 --> 00:05:24,600 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Michael Shoebridge, founder and director of Strategic 89 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,740 Sean Aylmer: Analysis Australia. I don't want to become political about this 90 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:31,320 Sean Aylmer: at all, but just the fact that politicians do make 91 00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:34,770 Sean Aylmer: commentary on it saying... I mean, the opposition leader Peter 92 00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:37,410 Sean Aylmer: Dutton, the past 24 hours has suggested it was an ex- 93 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:40,320 Sean Aylmer: New South Wales Labor MP. He then said he was 94 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,320 Sean Aylmer: speculating, so I hasten to add here, we don't know 95 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,979 Sean Aylmer: who it is. Does it help when politicians either side 96 00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:49,589 Sean Aylmer: of the fence jump into this debate? 97 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,799 Michael Shoebridge: I think politicians have every right to want the public's 98 00:05:55,799 --> 00:06:00,000 Michael Shoebridge: trust in them strengthened and not corroded and damaged. And 99 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,770 Michael Shoebridge: the problem with this revelation is every politician is a 100 00:06:04,770 --> 00:06:09,599 Michael Shoebridge: potential suspect until we know who it was. And if 101 00:06:09,599 --> 00:06:12,360 Michael Shoebridge: you commit a crime and there are no consequences for 102 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,349 Michael Shoebridge: you committing a crime, well, what is the point of 103 00:06:16,350 --> 00:06:21,539 Michael Shoebridge: our justice system? So we've just had a Vietnamese businessman 104 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,710 Michael Shoebridge: convicted of foreign interference, working with the Chinese government to 105 00:06:25,710 --> 00:06:28,738 Michael Shoebridge: try and corrupt our political system. That's a conviction that's 106 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:32,339 Michael Shoebridge: just happened. Why should we not be hearing about an 107 00:06:32,339 --> 00:06:36,449 Michael Shoebridge: espionage prosecution of this politician? Why should they be able 108 00:06:36,449 --> 00:06:39,450 Michael Shoebridge: to live their lives, fat, dumb, and happy, after having 109 00:06:39,450 --> 00:06:43,260 Michael Shoebridge: been confronted with being discovered and nothing happens? 110 00:06:44,339 --> 00:06:46,319 Sean Aylmer: Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I want to move 111 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,259 Sean Aylmer: on to the idea that a foreign entity has an A- 112 00:06:49,259 --> 00:06:54,690 Sean Aylmer: team specifically targeting Australia. Is that unusual, do you think? 113 00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:57,870 Sean Aylmer: For we who don't have your knowledge, don't have your 114 00:06:57,870 --> 00:07:01,170 Sean Aylmer: experience, it's slightly frightening that there's a country out there 115 00:07:01,170 --> 00:07:02,460 Sean Aylmer: who's targeting us. 116 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,388 Michael Shoebridge: Well, the ASIO chief told us last night that it's 117 00:07:06,389 --> 00:07:11,069 Michael Shoebridge: not just one country that's targeting Australia. Intelligence agencies from 118 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:14,160 Michael Shoebridge: a number of countries are doing it. But this is 119 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,980 Michael Shoebridge: like from Orwell; all animals are not actually equal. Some 120 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,659 Michael Shoebridge: intelligence agencies from some countries are much bigger, much better 121 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:28,260 Michael Shoebridge: resourced, and much more aggressive than others. Two of the 122 00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:32,700 Michael Shoebridge: most aggressive, best- resourced intelligence agencies on the planet are 123 00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:36,060 Michael Shoebridge: the Russians and the Chinese. And out of that, the 124 00:07:36,060 --> 00:07:41,639 Michael Shoebridge: Chinese dwarf the Russian capability. So the question with China 125 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:44,520 Michael Shoebridge: is not are they likely to have done it because 126 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,240 Michael Shoebridge: they've got form. That's why the Australian Parliament strengthened those 127 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,560 Michael Shoebridge: foreign interference laws in 2018. It was Chinese intelligence penetration 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,560 Michael Shoebridge: that made us strengthen our laws. So we know they've 129 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,219 Michael Shoebridge: got form. But the question is, which of the many 130 00:07:59,219 --> 00:08:02,460 Michael Shoebridge: Chinese intelligence agencies that are trying to do this could 131 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:05,369 Michael Shoebridge: it have been? Because it's like an alphabet soup of 132 00:08:05,369 --> 00:08:08,760 Michael Shoebridge: different agencies. I'll just give you a short, summarized list: 133 00:08:09,180 --> 00:08:12,750 Michael Shoebridge: the Ministry of State Security, the Ministry of Public Security, 134 00:08:12,990 --> 00:08:17,190 Michael Shoebridge: the United Front Work Department, and then the various intelligence 135 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:21,509 Michael Shoebridge: arms of the Chinese military. These compete and fall over 136 00:08:21,509 --> 00:08:23,849 Michael Shoebridge: themselves to be first to do this kind of thing. 137 00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:28,320 Michael Shoebridge: So they're the primary suspect just when you run the numbers. 138 00:08:28,830 --> 00:08:31,620 Sean Aylmer: What are they trying to get? What is it that 139 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:36,300 Sean Aylmer: is not available to the public that the state entities want? 140 00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:41,760 Michael Shoebridge: Well, they want to influence political decision- making, and you 141 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,468 Michael Shoebridge: do that by cultivating people, talking with them, putting your 142 00:08:46,470 --> 00:08:50,250 Michael Shoebridge: ideas in their head. You do that as much by co- 143 00:08:50,250 --> 00:08:53,759 Michael Shoebridge: opting them, by giving them gifts, giving them money, telling 144 00:08:53,759 --> 00:08:57,240 Michael Shoebridge: them how wonderfully intelligent they are, as you do by 145 00:08:57,270 --> 00:09:02,640 Michael Shoebridge: coercing and blackmailing them. And the thing about former politicians 146 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:06,150 Michael Shoebridge: that makes them so vulnerable is that phenomenon Gareth Evans 147 00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:09,300 Michael Shoebridge: talked about. When he left politics, he said the hardest 148 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:12,929 Michael Shoebridge: thing was he suffered relevance deprivation syndrome. So if you've 149 00:09:12,929 --> 00:09:16,410 Michael Shoebridge: been a powerful political figure and you stop being a 150 00:09:16,410 --> 00:09:20,640 Michael Shoebridge: powerful political figure, it's a wonderful opportunity for a foreign 151 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,220 Michael Shoebridge: spy agency to sidle up to you and tell you 152 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:26,400 Michael Shoebridge: how much they admire your sparkling intellect and your insights. 153 00:09:26,790 --> 00:09:29,820 Michael Shoebridge: And look, they know it's beneath you, but they'd love 154 00:09:29,820 --> 00:09:33,090 Michael Shoebridge: to pay you to have more of these wonderful insights. 155 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,929 Michael Shoebridge: So that's what they want. And why are they interested 156 00:09:36,929 --> 00:09:40,170 Michael Shoebridge: in Australia? Well, Australia's got a whole lot of valuable 157 00:09:40,170 --> 00:09:44,220 Michael Shoebridge: intelligence and military information, our own and our Five Eyes 158 00:09:44,220 --> 00:09:48,450 Michael Shoebridge: partners'. And also, what Australia does in the world can 159 00:09:48,450 --> 00:09:52,919 Michael Shoebridge: really matter. Think about back in 2018, Australia took a 160 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,728 Michael Shoebridge: decision to exclude those big Chinese 5G vendors from our 161 00:09:56,730 --> 00:10:02,160 Michael Shoebridge: 5G digital network. It changed world policy on those vendors. 162 00:10:02,670 --> 00:10:07,020 Michael Shoebridge: So that's a multi- million dollar decision. And it's also 163 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,089 Michael Shoebridge: restricted the reach of Chinese cyber agencies. This is why 164 00:10:12,090 --> 00:10:13,588 Michael Shoebridge: they're interested in Australia. 165 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:15,660 Sean Aylmer: It's going to be great to watch. Michael, thank you 166 00:10:15,660 --> 00:10:17,309 Sean Aylmer: very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 167 00:10:17,820 --> 00:10:18,240 Michael Shoebridge: Thanks, Sean. 168 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:21,869 Sean Aylmer: That was Michael Shoebridge, founder and director of defense and 169 00:10:21,929 --> 00:10:26,130 Sean Aylmer: security think tank, Strategic Analysis Australia. This is the Fear 170 00:10:26,130 --> 00:10:28,350 Sean Aylmer: and Greed Business Interview. Join us every morning for the 171 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:31,500 Sean Aylmer: full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's best business podcast. 172 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,449 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.