WEBVTT - David Pocock vs AI 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.360 The year is nineteen thirty four, the setting is Scotland. 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.960 Startling photos have emerged, appearing to capture the Lochness Monster. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.840 Fast forward ninety years to twenty twenty four to an 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:20.720 election campaign in Australia and a video is released of 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.520 a prime minister promising to ban gambling. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:28.360 Ads on all forms of gambling advertising, digital and both. 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.159 A fake designed specifically to deceive. And while humans have 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:35.280 always had a tendency to mislead each other, what's new 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.440 is the technology. It's now easier than ever to create 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.199 highly realistic fake content and we're only just starting to 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.159 see how wide ranging and insidious the impact will be. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.120 I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM today 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.640 Independent Senator David Pocock on his new bill to crack 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.360 down on deep fakes and why he thinks the government 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:07.720 has dropped them all on regulating AI. It's Wednesday, November 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:16.000 twenty six. Senator Pocock, thank you so much for joining me. 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:17.399 It would be great to be with you. 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.000 So you've been in the public eye for a very 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.720 long time now, and I wonder have you been aware 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.840 of people making deep fakes about you? 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:28.680 Not a deep fake? 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:32.000 I when Back when I was playing professional rugby, there 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.960 were a couple of scams where, you know, someone was 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.080 just using a photo of me to flog off like 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:41.200 protein powders or something, and it was harder than it 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:43.120 should have been to try and get them taken down. 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.319 I think they're on Facebook or you know, some social 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.280 media site, but you know, that's just a photo. Now 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.160 we're firmly in the era of AI and deep fakes, 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:53.880 and yeah, that's just a whole other level. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:55.520 Yeah, I want to get into all of that. But 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.200 I wonder when that was happening. I mean, it must 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.520 have felt strange to see your image used in that way, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.520 and I mean, did you kind of have much recourse 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:07.080 to stop it. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.640 I think my manager ended up helping contact the social 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.920 media company and get it taken down. But you know, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:15.880 that was kind of just it. It was very very 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.120 hard to do anything else, And yeah, it was. It 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:25.320 didn't feel great having some company selling questionable, questionable products 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:27.960 using your name. And you know, I think we're seeing 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:29.880 this across the board. We know that scams are on 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:34.240 the rise. People are getting far more sophisticated, and I 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.080 really think that we need to be legislating against this 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:38.640 sort of misuse of technology. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.800 Yeah, so, as you say, as AI has come into view, 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:44.960 the scope of this has just exploded. And this week 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.720 you introduced a bill into the Senate to crack down 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:50.320 on deep fakes. So tell me what's in the bill. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.639 Well, my bill basically says that you own your face 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.760 and you own your voice. Australians should own their likeness, 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.480 that is part of them, and you should be able 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.280 to deep fake someone's face or voice, create a video 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:09.480 or an audio recording without their consent. And so it 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.840 establishes a complaints process for the non consensual creation and 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.359 then sharing of deep fake material, and it strengthens the 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:23.120 Safety Commissioners powers to respond to our generated harm, to 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.360 issue removal notices formal warnings to social media companies, and 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.400 then actually sets up an avenue for civil redress through 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.360 the courts if individually is wrongfully depicted or exploited. I 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.960 guess that's probably going to be more used when there 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:40.840 is some sort of commercial gain, and I think we 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.000 really need that avenue. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.560 What about if someone unwittingly shared fake imagery? 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.040 Very little you can do there, and then that is 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.640 very clear in the bill you have to knowingly be 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:55.200 sharing what is clearly a non consensual deep fake. It's 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:57.920 very much focused at the creation of them and so 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.200 being able to straw a bit of a lie I'm 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:02.560 the sand and say like, this is not okay. We're 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.920 entering this this very different world where you can now 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.000 put a few prompts and a few images potentially some 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:14.720 clips of someone speaking or video and generate their likeness 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.600 and make them say anything. We've seen this happen already 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.520 in scams with you know, I think some of the 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.600 examples have been you know, Koshy and Dick Smith selling 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.680 scam investment schemes. So this is happening, and this is 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.880 really trying to get the Parliament to think more about 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.599 this and actually put in our law that this is 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.320 not okay and there's actually ways that Australians can combat it. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.520 And so tell me a bit more about I guess 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.919 the problem that you're trying to fix here, because this 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.640 idea that you know, we should own our own face, 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:48.880 it seems obvious, it seems like common sense. But what 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.840 is the current reality. What recourse to people have at 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.120 the moment if a fake image or a fake video 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.400 of them is shared without their knowledge or consent very little. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.760 I mean, you know, contact the Facebook complaints team, good luck, 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:07.000 contact Instagram like there there is there is no sort 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.919 of designated complaints pathway. And a big part of this 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.640 bill is actually to give the e Safety Commission of 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:14.520 those powers so you can get in touch and say, hey, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.960 this is a deep fac of me. I didn't consent 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.600 to this, this is this I don't want this up there, 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.680 and that they can then issue a directive to the 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:24.480 social media company to take it down. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:25.960 And then, as I said, you then have. 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.320 Some sort of recourse through the courts if it has 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.600 genuinely caused you you damage. So you know, I think 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:35.560 this is really about our laws evolving with technology and 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.440 putting some safeguards in place, engaging in the in the 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:44.440 debate around AI, I'm really concerned that you have a 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.680 lot of companies and it seems politicians focus on all 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.719 of the upside. This is so amazing for productivity, for 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.240 our economy, for all these things, and yet we're not 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.560 actually looking at well, there are probably some real. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:58.600 Downsides to this. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:03.880 One is pretend this sort of identity theft essentially replicating 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.440 someone without their consent, and so I do think this 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.800 task is urgent and really have been saying to the 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.000 government for years now, you've got to get cracking on 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.440 this because AI is moving fast and you're certainly. 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:20.640 Not coming up how AI can disrupt elections and how 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.920 political parties exempt themselves from the rules that everyone else 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:33.640 has to follow. Let's talk a little bit more about 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.919 the implications when this kind of material is put out there. 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.920 We could use a specific example. During the last election campaign, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.680 you created fake videos of Dutton and alb and Easy 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.440 to highlight how easy it is to do that they 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:48.360 were obviously fake. 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:55.040 That my government will be introducing legislation into the Parliament, 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.840 so we'll see a three year, phased in complete ban 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.320 on all forms of gambling advertising. 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.440 Alvin Easy, I think the one that you created was 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.000 promising to ban gambling ads, which. 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.000 He's obviously did that. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.840 So tell me a bit about how deep fakes have 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.600 been used in politics here and overseas, and then I 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.920 suppose the effect on the public when those kinds of 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:25.560 videos are put out there. 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.280 In the last parliament, I really urged the government to 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.000 act before the election to rule out the use of 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.840 deep fakes and political advertising. They didn't have any interest 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.200 in it, thankfully, it didn't seem to play a part 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.760 in our election. But there are examples from South Korea 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.720 and the US where deep fakes of politicians were created. 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.280 In the South Korea example, the parliament. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:53.559 They acted very quickly to put some very heavy penalties. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.640 On the use of deep fakes in elections. 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.840 In the US, we saw a voice clone of than 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.640 President Biden tell people not to turn up in one 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:03.400 of the primaries. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.400 What a bunch of malarkey. We know the value of 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.480 voting democratic when our votes count. It's important that you 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.840 save your vote for the November election. We'll need your 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.680 help in electing Democrats up and down the ticket. Voting 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.080 this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest to 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.640 elect Donald Trump again. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.880 So you know, there's I think huge potential to destabilize 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.400 the democratic processes. That's one thing, and I think that 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.199 should have been a priority. And hopefully for the next 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:37.600 section we'll have some safeguards in place, and can we 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:38.520 talk about the issue. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.600 I guess a bit more broadly than just deep fakes. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.240 I mean, you made a number of recommendations to the 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.480 Senate Committee on Adopting AI, and that was all about 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:51.520 how AI should be regulated in particular to protect the 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.920 political system. But when you look at how quickly the 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.160 technology is moving, what do you think we need to 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:58.800 see in terms of guardrails. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.560 Well, I mean at the press conference, I say, when 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.920 I announced this, the Member for Curtain, Kate Cheney and 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:11.160 Independent from w A was calling for an AI safety Institute. 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:13.600 I see today the government has announced they're going to 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.640 do it, which is which is a great thing. I 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.360 think that's a step forward. But again we're sort of 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.560 on the back foot here. Everyone knows how fast AI 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.720 is moving. Yes, we need we need to body a 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.400 safety institute that employees like genuine experts in this space 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:32.760 to advise government free of sort of industry spin on this. 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:34.400 These are the things you need to put in place. 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.720 Then I think we need an overarching AI Safety Act. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.200 This is the kind of technology where you can't constantly 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.679 be legislating against it. We actually need some broad safeguards. 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:48.440 This is what you can use it for, this is 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.440 what you can't use it for. And we need to 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.480 then use that, I guess to connect with like minded 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.000 countries you know, the EU, the UK, Canada and ensure 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.640 that we're we're sort of creating this. I guess system 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.640 of laws that are comparable and really do protect citizens 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.080 rights ahead of these enormous companies which clearly, I mean, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.760 their ethics don't don't. The only thing they seem to 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.200 care about is you know, winning the AI race and 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:17.200 making a lot of money. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.480 So I think that's one thing. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.360 I think we're also really not talking about potential impacts 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:29.000 on labor markets, on people's jobs, whether that's white collar jobs. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.760 And I think particularly sort of entry. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.920 Level jobs, like who is going to be able to 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.440 get those entry level jobs if there are you know, 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.520 AI agents able to do this sort of work. And 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.680 then you look at companies like Amazon and they are 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.200 you know, full steam ahead on trying to automate so 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.040 much of their supply chain and even delivery. So I 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.559 think these are very real risks that for a long 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.600 time we've thought, well, that's just a long way over 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.839 the horizon, that's not worry about it. But I really 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.520 think that as Parliament, that's our job. We should be 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.760 looking ahead and saying these things could be coming, let's 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.000 have a very serious conversation about them and then put 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:13.320 some safeguards in place. And sadly, you think that's really 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:15.240 been missing and. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.960 What about on the idea of how political parties collect 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.280 and use data. Do you have concerns about how that 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.880 data is retained and whether or not it is used 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:26.880 to train AA? 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:27.960 I do. 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:30.280 I mean, you know, this is something Independence have been 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.719 banging on about when it comes to data harvesting. You know, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.240 major parties send out these forms saying, hey, do you 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.720 want to do your postal vote? It kind of looks 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.760 like an AEC official form. You send them all this 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.600 data and then they, you know, put it into their system. 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.080 The major parties have exempted themselves from the Privacy Act, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.839 from the Spam Act. I just don't think that that 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.400 cuts it. And so I think, yeah, we should be 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:03.440 asking the the major parties what their policies are around AI. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:09.200 What are they actually feeding into you know AI platforms. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.840 We don't really know. But again, like these are conversations 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.360 we should be we should be having. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.200 And the government does currently have a review into AI underway. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.640 It's set to wrap by the end of the year. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.439 What would you like to see come out of it? 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:25.680 Well, I mean they did a lot of reviewing in 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.520 the last term of parliament, so I'd be interested what 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:34.880 came of those reviews. I would hope that there would 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.680 be a broad AI sort of safety act that would 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:40.880 actually look at all these things in a really holistic 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.520 way and put some safeguards in place. I have been 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.640 worried about the influence of industry. Seems like there's been 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.160 a big shift in the government sort of talking points 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.480 since the election. But you know, we'll give them the 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.199 benefit of the doubt until this review comes out and 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:56.880 see what it says. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.880 When you say industry, you mean what tech industry talking points? 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.280 Yeah, big tech, you know, open AI. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.000 Yeah, all the all the all the players who seem 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:10.319 to have a endless supply of money and a genuinely 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.040 in a in a race to dominate this space. 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.640 Well, Devid, thank you so much for your time. 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:20.920 Thanks Ruby. 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.720 By the way, what is the latest on the Parliamentary 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.480 Sports Club? But you are you back playing? 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.000 I'm not actually, you know, publicly they said I was 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:30.840 invited back, but I haven't heard a word from them. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:35.240 So I've just been doing my own thing in the mornings, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:42.640 running with the dog what's the leading flycatcher? Chasing a 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.840 little sparrow hawk this morning, which is pretty fun. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.839 So waiting for the official invite, but not sure if 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:48.240 it's coming. 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.360 Well, I actually I have no interest in going back 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.600 while they are sort of this cash for access scheme. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:58.200 I totally disagree with the whole the whole setup, and 0:13:58.240 --> 0:13:59.880 so I don't know, we'll see. They've kind of said 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.280 the they may review the policy. But I mean one 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.480 of the things I'm concerned about is that a lot 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.200 of people just think, well, this is just normal and 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.880 this is how things operate, and I think that kind 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:09.839 of says a lot about the. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:10.880 Problem with it. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.600 Also in the news, Labor has told government departments and 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.400 agencies to find savings up to five percent of their 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.840 budgets as it tries to reign in the deficit. Finance 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.760 Minister Katie Gallaher has denied the call amounts to cuts, 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.600 but unions and independents are warning it could mean job 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.360 losses in the public service and hit agencies such as 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.440 the CSIRO and the AFP. It comes after Labor campaigned 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.120 against Peter Dutton's pledge at the last election to cut 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.280 the forty one thousand public service jobs created in Labour's 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:55.960 last term, and One Nation leader Pauline Hanson has been 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.080 suspended from the Senate for seven sitting days after wearing 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.160 a burker in the Senate chamber. Senator Hanson wore the 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.440 garment as a stunt to call for a nationwide ban 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.480 on burkers and head coverings, refusing to leave the Senate 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.960 floor after she was sanctioned. After her suspension was ordered, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.720 Senator Hanson told the chamber the people will judge me 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.440 at the next election. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:18.160 Thanks for listening.