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Speaker 1: Some states in the face of blackouts later this year, AEMO,

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Speaker 1: the Energy Market Operator, calling for urgent investment to make

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Speaker 1: sure particularly New South Wales and Victoria don't run out

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Speaker 1: of power this summer. But it does say South Australia

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Speaker 1: not too far behind in that struggling along AMOS saying

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Speaker 1: key battery projects, transmission lines taking longer than anticipated to

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Speaker 1: be built and that is creating issues. Now it has

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Speaker 1: predicted blackouts, it's fair to say over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of summers, and those blackouts haven't eventuated because fortunately the

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Speaker 1: summers have been mild. We haven't had the long, stinking hot,

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Speaker 1: traditional if you like, summers that we seem to recall

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Speaker 1: from Childhood's gone by hot forever in a day, and

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Speaker 1: certainly even more recently than that, in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 1: around two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, we

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Speaker 1: had several two summers in a row where heat waves

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Speaker 1: lasted a couple of weeks of Richard's over thirty five degrees.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you can remember those very clearly. Not really

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Speaker 1: that long ago, not talking about going back to the

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Speaker 1: sixties or seventies, but those hot summers. Well, if we

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Speaker 1: get one of those again, potentially blackouts are run the

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Speaker 1: way transmission lines, including the interconnector that is being built

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Speaker 1: between Essay and New South Wales has been delayed by

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Speaker 1: a considerable period. Battery solar wind projects taking too long

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Speaker 1: to get up. What can we do about it? Energy

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Speaker 1: Minister Tom kuts and tonis minister. Good morning, it's morning.

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Speaker 2: Actually it's a dire outlook it is if you live

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Speaker 2: in New South Wales a Vitoria. South Australia is not

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Speaker 2: as bad. Our shortage is in one year thirty five megawatts.

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Speaker 2: So just to give your constituen your listeners an understanding

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Speaker 2: of what this report is, it's called an economics statement

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Speaker 2: of opportunities. So basically it's the strategy mark operator saying

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Speaker 2: to the private market pay there are opportunities here for

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Speaker 2: you to make money because there are general shortfalls. So

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Speaker 2: we need thirty five megawats in South Australia. Who can

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Speaker 2: provide us at thirty five megawats? Now, I am convinced

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Speaker 2: that is easy to procure. But if we get our

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Speaker 2: one in ten year hot summer, our shortage is three

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Speaker 2: hundred megawatts, so that's a bit more difficult. Now, I

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Speaker 2: just want to point out to your listeners. We had

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Speaker 2: two hundred and seventy megawatts of backup generation that I've

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Speaker 2: built as Treasurer and Energy Minister after the state wide blackout,

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Speaker 2: and there were two lots of gas fire generators that

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Speaker 2: we had based out at the old General Motors holding site.

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Speaker 2: Might remember those, they do?

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Speaker 1: They were diesel generators, though weren't they.

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Speaker 2: They were initially diesel and they've been now converted to

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Speaker 2: gas because generators to run on diesel or gas, and

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Speaker 2: the previous government sold them. So we lost those generators

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Speaker 2: now and now you can see, in a worst case scenario,

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Speaker 2: were short almost exactly what those backup generators were. Now

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Speaker 2: the government is now building another two hundred megawatts of

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Speaker 2: generation and gas buire generation, and that's going to be

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Speaker 2: in Wyala, and I'll be able to operate on gas

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Speaker 2: and a green hydrogen. And I just keep on making

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Speaker 2: this point. Governments keep on building generation to meet shortfalls,

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Speaker 2: and ideological purists come on and want to privatize these

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Speaker 2: assets for the private market, and we lose it. And

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Speaker 2: here we are again now discussing potential shortfall.

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Speaker 1: But it's all ideology, isn't it, Because it's ideology to

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Speaker 1: go to wind and solar. It's ideology to close coal.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's all ideology at the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: And I'm interested. I'm interested in that. You say it's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity statement for generators and ultimately retailers to make money.

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Speaker 1: Where's the opportunity for consumers to save money? And you know,

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Speaker 1: all right, you'll point to the rebate the federal government's

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Speaker 1: put in. That's just money into the retailer's pocket. At

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, we want to get prices

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Speaker 1: down and building all these things as we transition, we're

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Speaker 1: just making people poorer to to save one percent of

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Speaker 1: the world's emissions. It's just absolutely rubbish.

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Speaker 2: I fundamentally disagree without point matchally respectfully. So I think

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Speaker 2: if you look at the cost of building a wind

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Speaker 2: farm compared to the cost of building a gas fire

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Speaker 2: generator and the cost of that electricity at either end,

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Speaker 2: the power coming out of the wind farms and the

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Speaker 2: solar arrays are fundamentally so much cheaper. And what is

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Speaker 2: occurring is the reason your prices are higher in some

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Speaker 2: cases is that because the gas fire generators and the

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Speaker 2: cold fire generators are trying to recover more money over

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Speaker 2: a shorter period of time when there's a shortfall between

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Speaker 2: renewable energy. So the more renewble energy you build and

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Speaker 2: the more batteries you build, the chippier power prices are.

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Speaker 2: And the people who are extracting and pushing up your

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Speaker 2: rents are the very generators you're calling for to be returned.

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Speaker 2: They're the ones who are making power prices more expensive.

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Speaker 2: It's not a myth. If you look at the electricity market,

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Speaker 2: gas fire generators and coal fire generators are the ones

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Speaker 2: who are charging the most of the power the renewable

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Speaker 2: resources and the batteries are the ones that are the cheapest.

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Speaker 1: But that's the reason that's happening though, as you know,

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Speaker 1: is because there's not enough renewables at time. We've got

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Speaker 1: to fire up the gas. We have such an imperfect system.

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Speaker 1: We want to be renewable, and I get that and

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Speaker 1: all for that. Let's but we can't guarantee the sun's

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Speaker 1: going to shine. Look at today, cloudy is barely a

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Speaker 1: breeze outside.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We're doing absolutely with new gas and this

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Speaker 2: government absolutely supports gas via turbines. And the reason we

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Speaker 2: support gas via turbine is for the exact reason you

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Speaker 2: just said there are times when the sun does not

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Speaker 2: shine and the wind does not blow, and you need

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Speaker 2: to have that reserve, which is why we've put those

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Speaker 2: turns of your mega what we're the generators in that

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Speaker 2: our opponent's soul. You've got to keep on building a

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Speaker 2: reserving place. They can one back up renewable energy when

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Speaker 2: it's not available, and emergency you can turn it on.

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Speaker 2: But every time we build this stuff, you know, and

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Speaker 2: we lose an election income our opponents and they seldom again.

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Speaker 1: All right, just held on there, because your opponent is

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Speaker 1: called in Stephen Patterson, the Energy Minister. I'll get you

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Speaker 1: to respond to him in a second. But Shadow Energy

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Speaker 1: Minister Stephen Patterson, good morning, well, good.

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Speaker 3: Morning mess Yeah, and really concerning reports from am around

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Speaker 3: the increased risk of power blackouts over the next decade.

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Speaker 3: Yes in Nie and seaboard, but also in South Australia

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Speaker 3: as well, and we know increased risk of blackouts in

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Speaker 3: Victoria also means increased risks here. So these reports are

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Speaker 3: concerning and they come on the back of course of

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Speaker 3: we already pay very high electricity prices here intout Australia,

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Speaker 3: so not only pay high prices we're not getting a

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Speaker 3: reliable electricity system, and so this report again, you know,

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Speaker 3: it doubles down on the fact that more needs to

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Speaker 3: be done to concentrate on generation that's going to increase reliability.

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Speaker 3: We know that, and Tom Kulstonus himself has said it.

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Speaker 3: They're concentrating more and more on renewables at the expense

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Speaker 3: of other technologies. We've seen the m A report point

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Speaker 3: out that gas generation's gone out of the system and

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Speaker 3: that's one of the reasons for this reliability gap being reported.

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Speaker 1: What would you do to bring down power prices though, Well,

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: Just concentrate on a renewables only greed. We know how

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Speaker 3: important gas is. We really try to encourage that gas

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Speaker 3: there that can be complementary two renewables. We'd also look

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Speaker 3: at making sure that project Energy Connect was delivered on time.

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Speaker 3: One of the issues with this reporters that shows it's

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Speaker 3: been delayed. Now we know that Tom Quitstonus he's against

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Speaker 3: that project, even though when it comes online, it shows

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Speaker 3: that there's a drop in the unreliability of the system

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Speaker 3: and that then has a flow through effect that FLICY

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Speaker 3: can come down. So there needs to be more effort

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Speaker 3: put in to make sure that's delivered on time.

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Speaker 1: All right, Shadow Minister, thank you Stephen Patterson, Tom Kotson, tinus.

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Speaker 1: What is the delay in the trans line to New

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Speaker 1: South Wales the interconnected.

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Speaker 2: It's the South Australian portion is completely built and will

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Speaker 2: be operational. It's the New South Wales part that's not

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Speaker 2: built yet. This interconnector that mister Patterson puts all his

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Speaker 2: hopes into, an extension called in New South Wales, is

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Speaker 2: connecting us to a system that has a shortfall. This

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Speaker 2: next financial year of two hundred and seventy mega watts,

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Speaker 2: the following year of one thousand mega watts, the year

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Speaker 2: after that twelve hundred megawatts, the year after that eleven

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Speaker 2: hundred megawatts, the year after that a thousand mega watts,

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Speaker 2: the year after that twelve hundred mega watts, the year

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Speaker 2: after that two thousand and six hundred mega watts, and

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Speaker 2: a year after that eight hundred and sixty five mega year.

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Speaker 1: After that, nothing comes online, just to stop it there before.

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Speaker 2: That, he's he's put all his hopes in connecting to

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Speaker 2: New South Wales. And my is I'm never opposing interconnector.

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Speaker 2: My point is South Australia should have its own sovereign

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Speaker 2: capability to provide its own power. And they sold our

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Speaker 2: generators and put all our money and hope it's an

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Speaker 2: extension cords in New South Wales and it hasn't paid off.

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Speaker 2: So now we're building a generator to meet those shortfalls.

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Speaker 2: And I know what will happen one day label we'll

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Speaker 2: lose an election and people like Steven Patterson will get

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Speaker 2: in and they'll sell it and it will be here again.

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Speaker 2: And we've got to start as a community, start saying

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Speaker 2: South Australia needs to have its own generation that it

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Speaker 2: has complete control over, not a private operator, not a

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Speaker 2: private retailer. The South Australian government on behalf of its people. Well,

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Speaker 2: And every time I hear Liberal mp come on and

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Speaker 2: complain about reliability, I remind them they sold Thorrey's Island,

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Speaker 2: they sold the Northern power Station, they sold our transmission

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Speaker 2: lines and our distribution lines, and at most recently they

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Speaker 2: sold our generators of two hundred and seventy megawatts that

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Speaker 2: capital of his short falls. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: be electric by them on it at all.

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Speaker 1: The Northern power Station. So you're talking Port Augusta, that's right,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the labor government. In fact, it was Joe

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Speaker 1: weather or who was in power. Wasn't it when the

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Speaker 1: station went to the government and said, for an extra

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Speaker 1: twenty odd million dollars whatever the sum was, we'll keep

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Speaker 1: this going for another five years or so.

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Speaker 2: Well, every time a generator one, it was privately owned

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Speaker 2: and sold. So it wasn't the government's generator. And every

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Speaker 2: time a generator asked for a government handout to stay open.

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Speaker 2: The next thing will happen is that every generator will

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Speaker 2: ask the maybe to stay open and be available. That's

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Speaker 2: a capacity market. Now. You know, if you start paying

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Speaker 2: one generator, you're going to pay them all. So that

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Speaker 2: there wasn't a matter of us closing it or selling

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Speaker 2: it. It was a private owner who decided to make a

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Speaker 2: decision to close our generator. Now, if we had paid

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Speaker 2: Northern Power Station to stay open, AGL would have asked

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Speaker 2: us to pay to kip Torrens Island open, and then

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Speaker 2: on G would have asked us to money to kick

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Speaker 2: ploic and pornopen, and then everyone here to generate. That

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Speaker 2: state would have said, are you're paying all of them?

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Speaker 2: Why are you paying ups or walk quotes.

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Speaker 1: So all right, why don't you bite the bullet then?

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Speaker 1: And I know you'll say, and everybody now who was

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Speaker 1: opposed to nuclear before says, well, instead of ideology, instead

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Speaker 1: of Churner Bill and for Kushima and all the rest,

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Speaker 1: it's now just not affordable. And perhaps you're right, but

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Speaker 1: I see studies from different organizations, including the Center for

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Speaker 1: Economic Studies, that it costs marginally more than Snowy will cost,

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Speaker 1: plus transmission lines included into Snowy. Once that's built, it's

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Speaker 1: twenty odd million. And the Center for ek for Independent

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Speaker 1: Studies costs a nuclear generator at about ten million more.

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Speaker 1: Not overly expensive, not overly out of reach. And we

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Speaker 1: can do Snowy, surely we can do a nuclear power plant.

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Speaker 2: I don't have an opposition for their power, Matthew. I

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Speaker 2: just don't think it's economic given the costs of building.

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Speaker 2: I've seen these studies, but you look at the real

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Speaker 2: world experience of what it actually costs to build a

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Speaker 2: baseload nuclear power station, it is you know, we're talking

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Speaker 2: not hundreds of millions of dollars. We're talking tens of

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Speaker 2: billions of dollars for very small amounts of power. For example,

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Speaker 2: Torrence Island is at its peak was twelve hundred megawatts.

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Speaker 2: To build the equivalent size nuclear power station in South Australia,

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Speaker 2: the one that was building Georgia cost over seventeen billion

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Speaker 2: dollars US. Now the equivalent in gas would be one

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Speaker 2: point two billion. So the question you've got to ask

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Speaker 2: your off is, if you're going to build baseload generation,

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Speaker 2: you build gas, you wouldn't build you wouldn't build nuclear

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Speaker 2: because to recover the costs of the nuclear power, the

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Speaker 2: capital to put in to build it, your power prices

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Speaker 2: would go up, not down.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we do that with gas? Why doesn't the

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Speaker 1: government step and no one's going to sell that? Surely

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Speaker 1: once once taxpayer dollars go into that, build, build that,

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Speaker 1: and we're we're done. In South Australia.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Matthew. The previous weather Or government spent over

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Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars purchasing two hundred and seventy megawatts

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Speaker 2: of generation, and Stephn Patterson as part of a cabinet

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Speaker 2: that sold it. So they do sell it and there

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Speaker 2: was almost no outcry from the public about its sale.

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Speaker 2: And every time we invest in these generators, people keep

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Speaker 2: on selling them. We're building to Remega. What's now right now,

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Speaker 2: we've ordered General Electric. It's on its way to be

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Speaker 2: built in Wale in twenty twenty five. I guarantee you

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Speaker 2: that a future Liberal government will sell that generator. They'll

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Speaker 2: sell it or close it because their belief and trust

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Speaker 2: in this market is ideological.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: My view is, I am not an ideologue. I believe

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Speaker 2: that we should be going for the cheapest cost power

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Speaker 2: to try and lower power prices and renew their energy

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Speaker 2: on any measure is cheaper now, it is fundamentally cheaper.

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Speaker 1: Can energy ministers group together here come up with a

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Speaker 1: policy where we use gas forever in a day in Australia,

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Speaker 1: we get it at the cheaper rate, we have a

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Speaker 1: reservation policy for it. Can we do that as all

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Speaker 1: of you as a group instruct the market. This is

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, my view is is you would not use gas

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Speaker 2: all the time. You would use gas when there are

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Speaker 2: brakes and renewable energy and you would use that as

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Speaker 2: a firming product. So you would use gas sit on standby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you need to run it, don't you Otherwise

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Speaker 1: the cost of starting it up as standby, that's what

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Speaker 1: leads to the cost IMpower bills ultimately.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, but I mean the more you run it,

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Speaker 2: the more it's going to cost because gas is expensive.

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Speaker 2: So and I know you talk about a reservation policy,

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Speaker 2: but gas is still more expensive than renewables. So what

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Speaker 2: you want is what your gasfare generator to be sitting

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Speaker 2: there idle when the wind or the sun can't give

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Speaker 2: you the power that you need for the demand and

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Speaker 2: the grid the gas the backs it up and firms it,

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Speaker 2: and that gives you the ability to have a low

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Speaker 2: cost jurisdiction. They can give you good renewable resources with

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Speaker 2: low power prices. The problem we have in this state,

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Speaker 2: and what the problem is the biggest problem in Australia

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Speaker 2: is that we have very few customers on a very

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Speaker 2: very long grid. It was got to pay for nearly

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Speaker 2: forty percent of your bill is paying for transmission lines

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Speaker 2: and distributional life to get the power to your house.

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Speaker 2: And everyone who's got solar energy on their rus are

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Speaker 2: paying less and people who don't, so that burden is

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Speaker 2: falling more and more on people who don't have those resources.

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Speaker 2: So we've got this very expensive grid that is nearly

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Speaker 2: half your bill that we're paying for because we have

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Speaker 2: so few customers on a land mass the size of

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Speaker 2: Western Europe.

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Speaker 1: Just on before I let you go, the hydrogen jobs

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Speaker 1: plan that you're talking about today got a media releases

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Speaker 1: come through in the just a few minutes ago that

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Speaker 1: the jobs planned generator in in Wayala, which you've referenced

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Speaker 1: the state at risk of failing you say, to meet

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Speaker 1: national reliability standards. So that's that's pretty vital. We need

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Speaker 1: that absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what this report shows is that term remember,

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Speaker 2: what's that we're building is coming just in time, just

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Speaker 2: in time to make sure we can meet our reliability center.

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Speaker 2: If we didn't have that generator, you would see shortfalls

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Speaker 2: next summer. And it just shows you how important it

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Speaker 2: is to have a government reserve of power in the

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Speaker 2: system to make sure we can we can we can

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Speaker 2: build the gaps that the private market doesn't feel because

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Speaker 2: the market will only invest they can make money.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like a reservation policy though, doesn't it it's a.

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Speaker 2: Power reservation policy rather than a gas reservation policy. I suppose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, Tom kostanis have to leave it there.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your time this morning, Energy Minister,