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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm kristin amiot.

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Speaker 1: It's Thursday, March sixth, twenty twenty five. Brisbane residents will

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Speaker 1: bear the branch of cyclone Alfred's one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: five kilometer per hour winds, rain and flooding on Friday,

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Speaker 1: when the storm is expected to lash the Queensland capital

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Speaker 1: for twelve hours. For all the latest on the Category

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Speaker 1: two storm, visit the Australian dot com dot AU. Defense

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Speaker 1: Minister Richard Miles says he's absolutely confident US President Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump will follow through on his support of the historic

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Speaker 1: August Defense Pact between Australia, the United States and the

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Speaker 1: United Kingdom. Bard South Australian Premier Peter Malanowskis says questions

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Speaker 1: about the White House's commitment are starting to wear thin.

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Speaker 1: In a wide ranging conversation at the Defending Australia conference

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Speaker 1: in Adelaide on Wednesday, co hosted by The Australian and

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Speaker 1: our colleagues The Advertiser, the Defense Minister fielded questions about

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Speaker 1: aucust defense spending and those warships of the Australian coast.

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Speaker 1: In today's episode we're bringing you parts of that fascinating

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Speaker 1: conversation with Richard Miles and Shadow Minister for Defense Andrew Hasty.

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Speaker 2: Minister is going to ask do you trust Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: when it comes for his support for aucas.

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Speaker 1: That's The Australian's chief international correspondent Cameron Stewart chatting with

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Speaker 1: Defense Minister Richard Miles in Adelaide on Wednesday.

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Speaker 3: I do, and I actually have a sense of confidence

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Speaker 3: about where we can take the alliance under the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration and the alignment of effort in terms of the

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Speaker 3: focus that we're bringing to peer in terms of our

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Speaker 3: own security, but what the United States is doing in

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Speaker 3: terms of its focus on the hopes.

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Speaker 1: South Australian Premier Peter malinowskis, who'd broken ground on a

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Speaker 1: new shipbuilding academy that'll produce the graduates who'll build August

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Speaker 1: submarines earlier on Wednesday, alongside the Defense Minister, jumped in,

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Speaker 1: can I ask a question?

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Speaker 4: I was thinking about this today after our press conference.

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Speaker 5: Every single time Richard or I have stood up announcing

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Speaker 5: some progress milestone in terms of UCUS or any other

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Speaker 5: time on radio and South Australia, an event has occurred

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Speaker 5: where aucust becomes a tom of conversation.

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Speaker 4: I get asked that question.

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Speaker 5: I'm not too sure what more needs to be done

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Speaker 5: before those questions stop. All three countries have gone through

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Speaker 5: a change in administration or government from one political party

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Speaker 5: to the other, and not one word has been added

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Speaker 5: by any Prime minister, any defense minister, or a defense secretary,

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Speaker 5: or the US president of either political persuasion that has

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Speaker 5: actually said anything on the record that would suggest that

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Speaker 5: ORCUS is in.

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Speaker 4: An ongoing commitment.

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Speaker 5: And yet, while I can understand there's a desire to

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Speaker 5: ask the question given that things can change quickly, evidently,

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Speaker 5: nonetheless there's been no suggestion that this is going to

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Speaker 5: be an issue.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 2: Premier Kolby today spoke about the fact that he thought

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Speaker 2: it was great to sell Virginia class submarines to Australia,

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Speaker 2: but he said if the production of those submarines is

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Speaker 2: not fast enough, that might be a problem for the US.

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Speaker 2: That comes to a central question to trust in future

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Speaker 2: administrations to actually sell those submarines if their Virginia roll

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Speaker 2: out is not fast enough.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I can understand those comments, but in a sense, let's

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Speaker 3: think that through it is really I think the beauty

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Speaker 3: of the Optimal Pathway that we announced in March of

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Speaker 3: twenty three, that there really is something in it for

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Speaker 3: all three countries. We are playing a very significant role

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Speaker 3: now in increasing the production rate and the sustainment rate

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Speaker 3: of Virginia class submarines in America. For America, that's something

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Speaker 3: that they acknowledge. That is something which is utterly different

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Speaker 3: to any other relationship they have with literally any other

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Speaker 3: country when it comes to their bilateral defense relationships. The

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Speaker 3: strategic benefit to the United States of ORCUS is really

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Speaker 3: understood by the United States. And if the production rates

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Speaker 3: don't increase in relation to Virginia's, as both Pete and

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Speaker 3: I were saying to each other, there's a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of issues that America faces in that moment, But what

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Speaker 3: ORCUS is about is ensuring that we jointly succeed on

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Speaker 3: that effort. It is in Australia's interest that America has

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Speaker 3: a greater availability of Virginia class submarines. We need America

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Speaker 3: to be the most capable they can be, and America

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Speaker 3: needs us to be the most capable we can be.

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Speaker 3: And they're fundamentally I think you use the word trust,

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Speaker 3: trust is actually at the heart of the relationship. And

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Speaker 3: to Pelee's point, I mean we do keep getting asked

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Speaker 3: those questions. I get that we will get those questions.

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Speaker 3: It is a lot of money, it goes over a

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Speaker 3: long period of time. But what I'm really confident about

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Speaker 3: is we'll answer those questions.

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Speaker 4: That means something.

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Speaker 3: What means much more is the actions that we put

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Speaker 3: into place, and that is what's occurring.

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Speaker 1: In the hours before his defense Minister sat down to

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Speaker 1: chat with cam Stewart, Anthony Albanizi was moving to reassure Australians.

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Speaker 1: The Royal Australian Navy was keeping close tabs on a

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Speaker 1: flotilla of Chinese warships currently off the coast of Wa.

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Speaker 5: The Chinese vessels are currently, as of a very short

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Speaker 5: while ago, five.

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Speaker 2: Hundred and ninety three kilometers southwest of Adelaide.

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Speaker 1: The trio of ships entered international waters between Australia and

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Speaker 1: New Zealand on Friday, where they conducted a series of

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Speaker 1: live fire exercises that sent air traffic control into disarray.

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Speaker 6: It, of course, last Friday, caused chaos in the air

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Speaker 6: between New Zealand and Australia, forcing the diversion of forty

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Speaker 6: nine flights when it began a live fire exercise.

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Speaker 1: The Chinese vessels have been circumnavigating Australia in the day since,

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Speaker 1: shadowed by Australian Navy ships.

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Speaker 7: In seas never previously sailed by the Chinese Navy. The

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Speaker 7: warships are being shadowed by HMAS Stewart, a New Zealand

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Speaker 7: frigate to Kaha. The federal government believes China not only

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Speaker 7: wants to show its military reach, but normalize its presence

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Speaker 7: in the region.

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Speaker 1: The appearance of the ships called the readiness of Australia's

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Speaker 1: defense force into question and prompted a diplomatic war of words,

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Speaker 1: with leaders from Australia and New Zealand claiming China should

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Speaker 1: have given both nations a heads up before commencing the exercise.

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Speaker 1: In Adelaide on Wednesday.

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Speaker 4: It was the question on everybody's lips, how often have

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Speaker 4: we seen that before?

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Speaker 3: We've seen Chinese warships in the vicinity of Australia before.

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Speaker 3: I would describe it as an unusual event. It's not

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Speaker 3: a completely unprecedented event, though. When it became clear that

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Speaker 3: a task group was coming to Australia, we in an

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Speaker 3: unprecedented way made a decision and it was very much

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Speaker 3: a direction of mine to make sure that we were

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Speaker 3: surveiling this to the greatest possible extent. We did that,

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Speaker 3: and I did that because it appeared to me at

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Speaker 3: the outset that there was the prospect of this Task

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Speaker 3: Group being in the vicinity of Australia for some time.

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Speaker 3: We needed to do two things, which is what we

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Speaker 3: have done. The first was to ensure that the Task

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Speaker 3: Group complied with international law at all times, and I'm

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Speaker 3: advised that they have and that is important to understand.

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Speaker 3: And secondly, to get a clear understanding of what the

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Speaker 3: Task Group is trying to achieve in its mission by

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Speaker 3: looking at exactly where it goes, it's configurations, the training

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Speaker 3: and the activities that it's undertaken. And we've had a

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Speaker 3: close eye on all of that, which of course is

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Speaker 3: our right. I'd make this point as well, though international

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Speaker 3: law has to be our touchstone here. It has to

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Speaker 3: be our touchstone because there is much more often Australian

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Speaker 3: Navy ships in the vicinity of China than there are

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Speaker 3: Chinese Navy ships in the vicinity of it. We do

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Speaker 3: live firing exercises that we do live firing exercises on

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Speaker 3: the high seas, which is what China did. But we

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Speaker 3: also were not happy about the notice that was given

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Speaker 3: by the Chinese Navy in that particular event, and we

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Speaker 3: made it our concerns known to China, both in Canberra

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Speaker 3: and Beijing and at the level of our foreign ministers.

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Speaker 3: But I come back to the point. We are much

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Speaker 3: more present in the vicinity of China than China is

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Speaker 3: in the vicinity of Austina, and that's not gratuitous. That's

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Speaker 3: for a reason because that's where our trading routes are

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Speaker 3: and it's really important that we are in a position

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Speaker 3: to continue to assert freedm of navigation in and around

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Speaker 3: our trading routes.

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Speaker 4: For that to occur.

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Speaker 3: To continue, international law has to be our touchstone and

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Speaker 3: our bed rock. We're taking this very seriously. We've surveilled

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Speaker 3: this in a way that was not done previously under

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Speaker 3: the former government. But equally, we're not breathlessly trying to

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Speaker 3: hand this up either. And it's really important that we

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Speaker 3: observe the fact that they have been maintaining their obligations

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Speaker 3: in respect of the international law, and that's relevant in

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Speaker 3: the context of what we seek to do in the

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Speaker 3: proximity of China.

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Speaker 4: And that's fair enough.

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Speaker 2: Sure, but you've seen what they were doing, and I

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Speaker 2: think you said a couple of days ago, you're trying

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Speaker 2: to find out a bit more about exactly what they

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Speaker 2: were doing. But is it cricket? Are they trying to

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Speaker 2: send a message? Is this just bogs navy drills?

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Speaker 4: Look, I'm not saying that.

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Speaker 3: I think it is really important to conduct this surveillance

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Speaker 3: to properly understand exactly what they were doing, what they

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Speaker 3: were practicing, and I think from there to understand what message,

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Speaker 3: if any, is being sent to us. And I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to leap into that and speculate about that before

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Speaker 3: we get the proper assessments coming through in respect of

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Speaker 3: what we have observed, not for a moment, And I

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Speaker 3: don't want to be seen in suggesting that this is standard.

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Speaker 3: That is not my position. It is the case that

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Speaker 3: they've complied with international law. We're not going to fall

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Speaker 3: into the trap of breathlessly complaining about activities which are

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Speaker 3: in compliance with international law, which would lead us to

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Speaker 3: being in a compromised position in terms of what we

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Speaker 3: seek to do within the vicinity of China. That said,

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Speaker 3: we are clearly going to observe this really carefully, which

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Speaker 3: we have been doing to understand exactly what's going on

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Speaker 3: and to understand exactly what was being practiced and what

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Speaker 3: messages are being sent. And I'm not all sanguine about

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Speaker 3: all that.

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Speaker 1: In a surprise statement on Tuesday, Prime Minister Anthony Albanizi

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Speaker 1: said he's open to sending Australian troops to Ukraine in

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Speaker 1: a peacekeeping capacity. It followed a fiery White House exchange

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Speaker 1: between Ukrainian President Voladimir Zelenski and US Vice President jd

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Speaker 1: Vance that flipped everyone's understanding of the Russia Ukraine War

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Speaker 1: on its head.

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Speaker 4: What kind of diplomacy? Ggus became aboved.

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Speaker 7: What do you mean?

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Speaker 8: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to

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Speaker 8: end the destruction of your country as but President, mister president,

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Speaker 8: with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come

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Speaker 8: to the Oval Office to try to litigate this in

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Speaker 8: front of the American.

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Speaker 1: Media right now, you guys in Adelaide on Wednesday, Defense

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Speaker 1: Minister Richard Miles said, comparing Australia's reluctance to send boats

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Speaker 1: to the Red Sea during a period of heightened attacks

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Speaker 1: on commercial shipping vessels in late twenty twenty three. Isn't

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Speaker 1: exactly comparing apples with apples.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to be clear about exactly what

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Speaker 3: America asked. We are folk and it is part of

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Speaker 3: what comes out of the Defense Strategic Review and is

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Speaker 3: now in the national defense strategy. We are very much

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Speaker 3: focused on the Indo Pacific. We are focused on our

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Speaker 3: strategic task, and that is to build a defense force

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Speaker 3: which can resist coercion from any potential adversary. Now we

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Speaker 3: see that what is happening in Ukraine is relevant to that.

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Speaker 3: It's relevant to that because the global rules based order

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Speaker 3: that is so central to our national interests as an

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Speaker 3: island trading nation where there's a physical manifestation and that's

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Speaker 3: our sea lines of communication, freedom navigation goes directly to

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Speaker 3: our national prosperity where all of that is under pressure

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Speaker 3: in our region and all of that is on trial

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Speaker 3: in Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: We have been supporting Ukraine from the get go and

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Speaker 3: we will continue to support Ukraine. Right now, there are

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Speaker 3: Australian personnel in Britain who are involved in the training

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Speaker 3: of new recruits to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. So we

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Speaker 3: actually have Australian men and women committed right now. The

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Speaker 3: only point we've made is that as we listen to

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Speaker 3: our partners, which over the last three years has been

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Speaker 3: the United States, but our partners in Europe, including the

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Speaker 3: United Kingdom, including Ukraine itself, when they have asked for support,

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Speaker 3: we have considered that and worked out how we can

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Speaker 3: do it. And if there is a request of this kind,

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Speaker 3: we'll do the same. We'll consider it and work out

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Speaker 3: if we can make a contribution.

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Speaker 2: And on that line, if the US military aid to

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Speaker 2: Ukraine continues to be frozen, would that be a reason

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Speaker 2: for Australia to consider an increase of military aid to Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: I think the fundamental answer here is we will continue

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Speaker 3: to support Ukraine for as long as it takes for

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Speaker 3: Ukraine to resolve this conflict on its terms. And again,

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Speaker 3: it's an understandable question that's been consistently asked of me

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Speaker 3: during the last three years, and we have consistently been

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Speaker 3: announcing packages of support for Ukraine. Will continue to go

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Speaker 3: down this path, and as requests are made of us

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Speaker 3: by Ukraine itself, by our partners who are supporting Ukraine,

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Speaker 3: will consider them.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, Shadow Minister for Defense Andrew Hasty sits down

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Speaker 1: with The Australian's Foreign Affairs and Defense correspondent Ben Packham

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday. Donald Trump's pick for a top job at

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Speaker 1: the US Department of Defense put the pressure on Australia

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Speaker 1: to ratchet up defense spending. Elbridge Colby noted Australia is

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Speaker 1: currently well below the three percent level of GDP advocated

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Speaker 1: for by NATO, despite our relative proximity to China. Defense

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Speaker 1: Minister Richard Miles said Labor is, if re elected, willing

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Speaker 1: to engage with the US on defense spending.

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Speaker 3: Firstly, we have increased defense spending, as you said, Cam,

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Speaker 3: under our government. It's an additional fifty billion dollars over

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Speaker 3: the decade, which is now actually in the budget. And

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Speaker 3: to contextualize, that's the big increase in defense spending in

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Speaker 3: our peacetime history. So I understand very much the position

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Speaker 3: that America is taking. I think it is completely reasonable

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Speaker 3: that America is asking its friends and allies around.

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Speaker 4: The world to do more. We're totally willing.

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Speaker 3: To engage in that conversation with the United States, which

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Speaker 3: we've already started.

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Speaker 1: Males opposition counterpart Andrew Hasty told Ben Packham the coalition

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Speaker 1: will pony up if they're elected.

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Speaker 9: Look, we've already indicated very publicly that we will increase

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Speaker 9: defense expenditure. We gave a hint of that over the

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Speaker 9: weekend with the additional three billion dollars committed towards the

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Speaker 9: acquisition of the fourth squadron of F thirty five's but

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Speaker 9: will announce our full costings and our budgetary plan in

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Speaker 9: Duke Horse closer to the election.

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Speaker 10: A whole one percent. That's quite a big leap. Where

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Speaker 10: does the money come from? Do you think to get

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Speaker 10: the defense budget up to that sort of a level.

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Speaker 9: That's a good question, and I'm sure the Deputy Prime

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Speaker 9: minister's working that through as well, because it's a message

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Speaker 9: to Australia from Bridge Colby, who's going to take a

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Speaker 9: very central part in the Trump administration.

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Speaker 4: So we've got our plan. We're going to.

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Speaker 9: Announce that in due course and you won't be getting

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Speaker 9: a scoop here, Ben, Sorry to say.

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Speaker 10: The personnel crisis the defense is facing, it's one of

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Speaker 10: the biggest challenges facing the ADF and it could seriously

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Speaker 10: limit our capability ambitions. This isn't a new thing. It

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Speaker 10: was a problem under the former government too. What would

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Speaker 10: the Coalition do differently to get more Australians into uniform.

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Speaker 10: Is it about offering more money, lowering standards? What's the plan?

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Speaker 4: I think there's a range of things.

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Speaker 9: We are having a recruiting crisis and last year ninety

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Speaker 9: percent of ADF applicants withdrew their application from defense. I

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Speaker 9: think we need to challenge this generation of Australians to

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Speaker 9: service fairly old school values of serving your country, defending

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Speaker 9: your country, being part of this great Anzac tradition which

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Speaker 9: has been handed down to us.

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Speaker 4: I think that's really important.

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Speaker 9: And the point I'm making is political leadership matters here

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Speaker 9: and if we're not getting a signal from the government

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Speaker 9: that service in the is important. It's a really great

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Speaker 9: opportunity to grow as a person, and of course there

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Speaker 9: are benefits as well. But whenever he ad is about

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Speaker 9: self actualization rather than service, if it's not a challenge

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Speaker 9: given to these young people, they're not going to take

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Speaker 9: it up. I also think there's big problems within recruiting itself.

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Speaker 9: Administrative bungles, people being basically eliminated because of previous medical records,

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Speaker 9: which I think are quite trivial. So there's a risk

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Speaker 9: aversion within the actual contractors who run recruiting, and I

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Speaker 9: think we should have more uniforms against that problem, just

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Speaker 9: like the Marine Corps do. They put their best officers

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Speaker 9: and they're best enlisted against the problem. They give them

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Speaker 9: targets and it's a part of progression for them in

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Speaker 9: their careers.

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Speaker 10: You've been quite direct in your attacks on Anthony Albanezi

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Speaker 10: and Richard Miles, accusing them of weak leadership. You said

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Speaker 10: it recently in relation to the Chinese warships. How do

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Speaker 10: you think the government has been weak and what would

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Speaker 10: do you do differently on defense?

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Speaker 9: I think the Prime Minister failed to stand up for

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Speaker 9: the national interest and he failed to insist on mutual respect. Now,

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Speaker 9: the Deputy Prime Minister said that we often do patrols

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Speaker 9: up in waters that are contested under international law as

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Speaker 9: part of multilateral formations or groupings, and my understanding is

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Speaker 9: whenever we've done live fire in that context, it's always

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Speaker 9: been deconflicted, controlled and as part of a wider coalition.

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Speaker 9: For example, went not off the coast of China, disrupting

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Speaker 9: their commercial flight path, and so the issue was that

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Speaker 9: we didn't get notice and it disrupted our commercial flight path,

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Speaker 9: and I think the message is quite clear from the

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Speaker 9: Chinese government. They're now a global power with a bluewater navy.

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Speaker 9: They're projecting deep into our waters. And this happened at

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Speaker 9: the same time, of course, that Donald Trump was resetting

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Speaker 9: relationships in Europe with NATO, and I think it was

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Speaker 9: a test for US. There's a reason why they sailed

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Speaker 9: past the Philippines through the Arafuracy, the coral Seed, down

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Speaker 9: past Sydney, and they've circumnavigated the country as well.

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Speaker 4: So I think there's a.

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Speaker 9: Message there, and I think the average person on the

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Speaker 9: street with a PhD in Life got the message pretty

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Speaker 9: and clear.

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Speaker 10: Is it strange to you that Anthony ALBINIZI would be

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Speaker 10: open to sending troops to Ukraine but not Peter Dutton.

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Speaker 10: Why shouldn't we back our support for Kiev with boots

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Speaker 10: on the ground.

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Speaker 9: Look, I think there's been no formal request as I

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Speaker 9: understand it, and this would be a decision for the

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Speaker 9: Prime Minister and the National Security Committee of Cabinet, and

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Speaker 9: so there's a lot to play out yet in the negotiations,

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Speaker 9: which reached an inflection point on the weekend in the

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Speaker 9: White House. And so I think this is a decision

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Speaker 9: for a government of the day when a request comes forward.

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Speaker 4: That's not ruling it in or ruling it out. But

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Speaker 4: I just don't think we should rush. I just don't

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Speaker 4: think we should rush to.

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Speaker 9: Commit young Australians to a conflict without a request. And

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Speaker 9: so I think Peter and I are very closely aligned

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Speaker 9: on this.

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Speaker 4: On Orcus.

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Speaker 10: We've seen Donald Trump cozy up to Russia, call Vladimir

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Speaker 10: Zelinsky a dictator and whaka twenty five percent tariff on

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Speaker 10: Canada and Mexico. Do you trust Donald Trump to do

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Speaker 10: what he says? And in your view, is UCAS a

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Speaker 10: lock under his leadership?

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Speaker 4: Look, I think UCUS is a lock under his leadership.

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Speaker 9: But I think Donald Trump as a president studies your

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Speaker 9: hand very closely. And I think it's incumbent upon the

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Speaker 9: Prime Minister to demonstrate the strong hand in future negotiations.

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Speaker 4: And I think Prime Minister is flat flooded.

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Speaker 9: He's not agile, and he should have gone already to

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Speaker 9: meet with Donald Trump and to.

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Speaker 4: Establish that relationship. We've got a great hand.

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Speaker 9: We've got strategic depth here, which is what we're going

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Speaker 9: to deliver through Aucus. We're already delivering it through Darwin

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Speaker 9: and Alice Springs and the joint facilities that we have there.

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Speaker 4: And of course we have an abundance of.

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Speaker 9: Rare earths and critical minerals which will be essential for

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Speaker 9: military and space applications going forward.

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Speaker 10: So we need to hume bearing gifts, really.

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Speaker 9: Not come bearing gifts, stake our position and argue it

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Speaker 9: a bit.

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Speaker 4: A hip and shoulder in the Oval Office.

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Speaker 9: I think in any sort of negotiation you need strength.

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Speaker 1: Ben Packham is the Australian's Foreign Affairs and Defense correspondent

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Speaker 1: and Cameron Stewart is our chief international correspondent. You can

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Speaker 1: read all our teams reporting and analysis right now at

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Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au