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Speaker 1: A warning for listeners that this series contains graphic details,

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Speaker 1: including references to murder and rape. A killer had been

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Speaker 1: walking free for a month, and then that month turned

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Speaker 1: into a year. One year became ten, then twenty, then thirty, forty,

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Speaker 1: almost fifty.

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Speaker 2: Whoever had murdered.

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Speaker 1: Susanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett was still at large, likely

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Speaker 1: growing old and living life after stealing theirs so violently.

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Speaker 1: Some wouldn't live long enough to see justice done for

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Speaker 1: the two sues. Though still waiting, mightn't have realized it,

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Speaker 1: but the wheels of justice were turning, turning slowly and

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, but turning nonetheless. A list of more

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Speaker 1: than one hundred and thirty potential killers had been whittled down,

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Speaker 1: and after breakthroughs in DNA, investigators were about to set

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Speaker 1: their sights on one man. My name is Olivia Jenkins,

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Speaker 1: and I'm a crime reporter at the Herald's Sun. And

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Speaker 1: this is hunting justice. The Easy Street murders, the deep

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Speaker 1: dive into one of Australia's most brutal cold cases, and

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Speaker 1: the man police now allege is at the center of

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Speaker 1: it all. A year after Suzanne Armstrong and Susan Bartlett

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Speaker 1: were murdered in their Easy Street home. Homicide detectives hadn't

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Speaker 1: been able to pin down their killer. Sue Armstrong's new boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: Barry Woodard and his brother Henry had been questioned repeatedly

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Speaker 1: and for a while there detectives had their sights set

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Speaker 1: on Sue Bartlet's new suitor, Ross Hammond. He had apparently

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Speaker 1: looked rather nervous and sweaty, as one detective put it,

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Speaker 1: when police probed him over the murders in Elstonwick, where

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Speaker 1: we believe he may have lived. But as those leeds

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Speaker 1: went nowhere, the Sue's families were getting desperate for answers.

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Speaker 1: Suzanne's sister Gail even spoke with British medium Doris Stokes

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Speaker 1: in a meeting organized by the Sunday Press. Yes, but

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Speaker 1: nothing came of missus Stokes out their speculations, and the

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Speaker 1: homicide squad was not particularly happy about the meeting, saying

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Speaker 1: they were quote concerned with the natural, not to the supernatural. Instead,

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Speaker 1: police hoped a cash incentive would generate more tips that

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Speaker 1: could lead them to the killer.

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Speaker 3: Senior police in Melbourne are considering asking the state government

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Speaker 3: to post a fifty thousand dollars reward for information leading

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Speaker 3: to the arrest of the Easy Street sex killer.

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Speaker 1: Life on Easy Street seemed to move on around the

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Speaker 1: so called murder House. Neighbours came and went, and homicide

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Speaker 1: detectives quickly became overwhelmed by a spate of more recent

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Speaker 1: murders that moved higher up on the list of cases

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Speaker 1: to solve.

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Speaker 4: A grieving son is pleading for the public's help to

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Speaker 4: find his mother's killer. Mary Anne Fagan was stabbed to

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Speaker 4: death in her Armadale home forty six years ago.

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Speaker 2: Her son passed the following year.

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Speaker 1: On February, seventeen year old mother of five Mary Anne

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Speaker 1: Fagan was bound, gagged and stabbed to death while her

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Speaker 1: children were at school. A month later, an unknown killer

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Speaker 1: gunned down three men during a robbery at a Melbourne

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Speaker 1: jeweler's office, and just a week after that, thirteen year

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Speaker 1: old Denise McGregor's body was found by the side of

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Speaker 1: the road after she vanished from a coburg hamburger shop.

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Speaker 1: And then in nineteen eighty two, mother of four Jenny

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Speaker 1: Rose Ung was stabbed to death inside her Richmond a

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Speaker 1: public housing flat. All of those murders remain unsolved today.

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Speaker 1: Back in Collingwood, time was not on the side of detectives.

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Speaker 1: The investigation into the Easy Street killings had stalled and

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Speaker 1: there were still no answers for the two sues families

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Speaker 1: by the time. Another wave of high profile crimes rocked

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Speaker 1: Melbourne in the mid eighties, just streets away from where

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Speaker 1: Susan and Suzanne were murdered. A decade later, and just

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Speaker 1: a few blocks away from Easy Street, Julian Knight would

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Speaker 1: carry out the Hottle Street massacre, killing seven people and

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Speaker 1: wounding nineteen others, and a few months later, twenty two

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Speaker 1: year old Frank Vitkovic would open fire on workers inside

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Speaker 1: the Australia Post offices on Queen Street in Melbourne, CBD,

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Speaker 1: killing eight people before he fell to his death. The

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Speaker 1: lack of answers followed their friend Neville Webster all through university.

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Speaker 5: You go to the Royal Hotel or something, half the

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Speaker 5: school staffs and we talk about the whole range of things.

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Speaker 5: But this is one of the topics that you used

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Speaker 5: to come up and how bad it was, and we

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Speaker 5: have a good result.

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Speaker 1: And while the investigation dragged on, more tragedy followed for

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Speaker 1: both the Armstrong and Bartlett families, Some of them wouldn't

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Speaker 1: survive long enough to see any breakthroughs in the case. First,

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Speaker 1: Susan Bartlett's father, Clifford, died just two weeks after his

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Speaker 1: daughter's murder. Then a year later, tragedy would strike Suzanne's

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Speaker 1: father Bill. Here's crime writer Andrew Rule mister Armstrong.

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Speaker 6: He split up with his wife later and he went

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Speaker 6: to Bensdale in Gippsland, and he was killed fighting a

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Speaker 6: big grass fire up there.

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Speaker 4: He died.

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Speaker 6: He perished fighting a fire in only a couple of

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Speaker 6: years after his daughter's murder. So uh, tragic story, tragic family,

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Speaker 6: a family touched by tragedy.

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Speaker 1: Susan's mother, Elaine, died a few years after Bill in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two, and in two thousand and two, Suzanne's

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Speaker 1: brother Terry died in a house fire. Sue Bartlett's brother

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Speaker 1: Martin told author Helen Thomas that their mother just couldn't

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Speaker 1: cope with his sister's murder. We've used a voice actor

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Speaker 1: to bring Martin Bartlett's words to life here for her.

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Speaker 7: To understand why someone would do it and to.

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Speaker 1: Do it to her daughter.

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Speaker 2: Really, over the years, her blood pressure went through the roof.

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Speaker 2: She died at sixty one. It just killed her in

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Speaker 2: the end.

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Speaker 3: It was such a stressful thing that she never ever

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Speaker 3: came to grips with why someone would do it.

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Speaker 1: Even if they had found somebody, she wouldn't have comprehended

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Speaker 1: why that person could have done what they did. Suzanne's mother, Eileen,

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Speaker 1: lived long enough for homicide detectives to boost the reward

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Speaker 1: for information about the girl's murders to one million dollars

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, before she too died in October in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. This was their family's emotional plea for

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Speaker 1: anyone who knew something to finally come forward.

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Speaker 7: You're going to live the rest of your life in comfort.

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Speaker 3: Say something.

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Speaker 1: The house in Easy Street that had become synonymous with

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Speaker 1: the brutal murders had moved on too, in a way.

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Speaker 1: It was sold for the first time since Susan and

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Speaker 1: Suzanne's death in nineteen eighty three, and it has changed

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Speaker 1: hands several times since then. And baby Gregory, the little

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Speaker 1: one who had somehow escaped the same brutal death as

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Speaker 1: his mother and her best friend in that house, was

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Speaker 1: all grown up after the murders. Suzanne's sister Gail took

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Speaker 1: him in and raised him, all while juggling life as

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Speaker 1: the new mum of her own baby. Greg was eventually

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Speaker 1: able to track down his father, the Greek man that

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Speaker 1: Susanne Armstrong had met during her travels, with the help

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Speaker 1: of the late author and respected Son news journalist Tom Pryor.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety six he published the first in depth

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Speaker 1: look at the murders They Trusted Men, And if you

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Speaker 1: remember from earlier, it was that book that had also

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Speaker 1: zeroed in quite harshly on the girl's rumored promiscuity. He's

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Speaker 1: fellow author Helen Thomas.

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Speaker 7: Attitude change, cultural sort of perspective changes, policing techniques change,

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Speaker 7: their tools have changed. But still, you know, even though

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Speaker 7: we can be, you know, critical, even though we can

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Speaker 7: offer that critique and have a different perspective, I still

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Speaker 7: think we have to remember that, you know, those detectives

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Speaker 7: would have cared very deeply about what had happened to

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Speaker 7: those women.

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Speaker 1: And it would be almost two decades after the murders

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Speaker 1: before crime scene evidence would start to yield anything useful

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Speaker 1: for investigators.

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Speaker 7: In fairness to the police, we have to say, in

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Speaker 7: those days, they didn't have the scientific tools if you

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Speaker 7: like the tools of detection that they now have. You know,

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Speaker 7: they didn't have DNA, and that's a pretty big thing

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Speaker 7: not to have. So they were working with blood analysis,

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Speaker 7: they were working with fingerprints, and no matter what, you

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Speaker 7: know when you look back, if there was and also

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Speaker 7: I guess we need to sort of remind ourselves too

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Speaker 7: that there was no CCTV footage, there were no mobile phones,

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Speaker 7: There was not the way people attracked now people and

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Speaker 7: times can be looked at, if you like, in a

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Speaker 7: visual way. Most of us don't know how often we're

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Speaker 7: being filmed all the time, you know, as we go

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Speaker 7: in and out kind of not just shops and mauls,

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Speaker 7: but also some apartment blocks and even private heimstaff.

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Speaker 1: DNA evidence wasn't used for the first time in an

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Speaker 1: Australian court until nineteen eighty nine, more than a decade

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Speaker 1: after the murders, and until nineteen ninety eight, when a

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Speaker 1: new round of DNA testing on the evidence in the

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Speaker 1: case began. Pretty Much all investigators could gather from the

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Speaker 1: blood samples from the crime scene was that Susan was

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Speaker 1: O blood type and Suzanne was a Back in episode three,

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Speaker 1: we took you through a whole range of other items

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Speaker 1: police and forensics collected at the crime scene, the patch

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Speaker 1: of carpet, a sperm sample that was collected from Sue

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Speaker 1: Armstrong's body, blood scrapings from a wall in the hallway.

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Speaker 2: And a lamp.

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Speaker 1: Though they'd sat in storage for decades and they were

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Speaker 1: moved from one place to the next, that breakthrough in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties meant they could all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: tell detectives much more about the horror Susan and Suzanne suffered,

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Speaker 1: and maybe even who had unleashed it on them.

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Speaker 8: So have our PhD molecularpology so since graduated off worked

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Speaker 8: mainly in the DNA lab space in different areas and

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Speaker 8: turning two Forensics in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: That's doctor Dadna Hartman.

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Speaker 1: She's a molecular biologist and the manager of the DNA

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Speaker 1: lab at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine. We've asked

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Speaker 1: her for expert insights into how DNA actually works, what

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Speaker 1: it tells us about a crime scene and a potential killer.

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Speaker 1: Dadener's not referring to specific evidence in the Easy Street

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Speaker 1: case here, but she's giving us a general breakdown of

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Speaker 1: how DNA can shape an investigation.

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Speaker 8: DNA is a chemical that we all carry and we

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Speaker 8: can leave behind. It can be recovered from things like

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Speaker 8: bloodstains in some criminal matters, or touching an object. From

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Speaker 8: this east point of view, we can recover DNA from

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Speaker 8: post mortem samples such as tissue.

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Speaker 3: Blood bone.

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Speaker 8: So really it's the DNA's biological material that can be

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Speaker 8: extracted from these sorts of samples and used in helping

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Speaker 8: to either identify a person or determine whether the samples

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Speaker 8: could have originated from the same donor, or to help

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Speaker 8: us in determining whether people are biologically related.

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Speaker 1: Forensic specialists were finally able to lift some of that

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Speaker 1: DNA from vaginal swabs taken from Susanne Armstrong and extract

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Speaker 1: what they called a partial DNA profile, one that might

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Speaker 1: have belonged to the killer.

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Speaker 2: But what exactly is a.

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Speaker 1: Partial profile and what could it tell investigators?

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Speaker 8: The more markers that you have DNA information for enabled

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Speaker 8: to be compared, then the more strength that profile has

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Speaker 8: been able to give you a strong comparison. There've been

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Speaker 8: increases or improvements in the kits that we use. So

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Speaker 8: let's say even you know, ten or fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 8: the number of markets that we analyzed were fewer. You

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Speaker 8: need it a lot more DNA to do the analysis. Therefore,

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Speaker 8: sometimes you weren't able to perform that analysis because you

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Speaker 8: didn't have f DNA, or the DNA was inhibited, or

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Speaker 8: there was another issue. The kits that we have now

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Speaker 8: are more tolerant towards the inhibitors. You need less DNA

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Speaker 8: to be able to get a profile, and we looking

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Speaker 8: at a lot more markets of DNA. So here at

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Speaker 8: the Institute, we use a kit that looks at twenty

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Speaker 8: one markers, so we're able to get a lot more

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Speaker 8: DNA information from those samples that we did just a

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Speaker 8: few years ago.

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Speaker 1: And with a list of suspects that had ballooned to

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred and thirty persons of interest, could

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Speaker 1: that partial profile be used to eliminate some of them too.

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Speaker 8: We don't look at all of your DNA. We look

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Speaker 8: at a number of markets that are very specific for

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Speaker 8: identification purposes and are valuable in that respect, and we

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Speaker 8: look at a set of those markers and it's a

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Speaker 8: combination of that analysis that yields what is known as

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Speaker 8: the DNA profile. And once we have that DNA profile,

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Speaker 8: we can say, based on the DNA data, does it

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Speaker 8: support the proposition that these two individuals could be biologically

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Speaker 8: related or that these samples have originated from the same person.

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Speaker 8: And the way we express that is in a likelihood value.

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Speaker 8: So what is the likelihood that these two people are

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Speaker 8: related as opposed to two people at random from the population,

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Speaker 8: or what is the likelihood that this sample has originated

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Speaker 8: from this donor as opposed to not, And that can

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Speaker 8: be expressed as a figure, and it's usually for a

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Speaker 8: criminal case, it could be quite a large number that

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Speaker 8: gets expressed, you know, trillion times more likely from an

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Speaker 8: idea point of view, could be, you know, ten million

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Speaker 8: times more likely that these two people are related.

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Speaker 1: And when forensics specially extracted the partial DNA profile of

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Speaker 1: the potential killer, that giant list was looking a lot smaller.

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Speaker 1: Detectives say they had narrowed it down to just eight men.

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Speaker 1: The man once at the top of that list, colorful

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Speaker 1: crime journalist John Grant, had been cleared, according to police,

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Speaker 1: and so had race car driver Peter Brock. They'd also

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Speaker 1: shifted their focus from other men you've heard about, away

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Speaker 1: from the dodgy X cop ian Lloyd as well as

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Speaker 1: Peter Samsonitas Barrion. Henry also didn't seem to fit the profile,

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Speaker 1: and neither did Ross Hammond, Sue Bartlett's new boyfriend. Detectives

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Speaker 1: at one stage also flew to the UK to compare

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Speaker 1: that partial DNA profile with another man, but they weren't

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Speaker 1: a match either. Detectives were armed with a whole pool

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Speaker 1: of suspects and DNA they thought might belong to the killer,

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Speaker 1: but still all of those clues hadn't offered up any

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Speaker 1: sort of match, but they hadn't given up. He didn't

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Speaker 1: know it then, but when Ron Iddles grabbed that knife

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Speaker 1: of seventeen year old Perry all those years ago, it

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Speaker 1: was only his first brush with the case. By the

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Speaker 1: time he became a respected and high profile homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: the mammoth hunt for the Sioux's killers had transformed into

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Speaker 1: one of Australia's most chilling unsolved cases, one that had

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Speaker 1: somehow seemed to have so many leads but so few answers.

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Speaker 1: Detective Idyls had closed more than three hundred investigations, but

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Speaker 1: Easy Street wasn't one of them. But the knife Idle

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Speaker 1: sees from Perry had remained a point of interest for

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Speaker 1: investigators and forensic specialists throughout the investigation. The blade, the

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Speaker 1: one that Perry said he found on the train tracks,

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Speaker 1: was held in a sheath, a sort of fitted protective cover.

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Speaker 1: Early media reports had suggested the knife had been wiped

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Speaker 1: clean and that its brown plastic handle contained some blood samples,

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Speaker 1: but they could only point to Group A blood Susanne

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Speaker 1: Armstrong's blood type and a fairly common one, but no

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Speaker 1: trace of Sue Bartlett's Group O blood type. One inspector

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Speaker 1: in the days after the killings discounted the knife because

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Speaker 1: it had been found quote too soon after the murders,

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Speaker 1: but that same knife was plastered on the front page

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Speaker 1: of the Herald with the headline did this kill two girls?

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Speaker 1: Forensic biologists retested the knife in nineteen ninety eight and

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Speaker 1: again in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen. This time, no

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Speaker 1: blood was detected on the knife or its sheath, but

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Speaker 1: one sample on its blade turned up a quote very

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Speaker 1: partial profile, but that was too small to be compared

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Speaker 1: to anything, and so a pathologist believed that the knife

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Speaker 1: could neither be ruled in or out as the murder weapon.

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Speaker 1: Detectives had also visited another man at the request of

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Speaker 1: the homicide squad about a knife that might have been

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Speaker 1: kept at his house, but Perry Krumblus's committal hearing heard

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Speaker 1: that police didn't seize that one because they believed it

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Speaker 1: was too big to have caused the.

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Speaker 2: Stab wounds found on the Sioux's bodies.

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Speaker 1: The years ticked by until Detective Idols quietly reopened the

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Speaker 1: Easy Street investigation in twenty eleven. Then in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: DNA from those same eight original key suspects was retested

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Speaker 1: in the hopes it might give investigators new clues. But

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Speaker 1: again they weren't a match and what had happened to

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Speaker 1: that young sharpie.

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Speaker 2: Perry Crumblus kind of a founding role with him.

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Speaker 4: He was a bit of an eccentric in that he

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Speaker 4: was a bit of a loaner. He had friends. I

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Speaker 4: had friends that would drop in from time to time,

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Speaker 4: not a huge number of friends. He and I got

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Speaker 4: on well. He did spend a lot of time during

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Speaker 4: the summer months going out fishing out in Port Phillip Bay.

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Speaker 4: He'd always catch his limit out there. He was a

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Speaker 4: good fisherman and we just sort of chatted because we

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Speaker 4: were neighbors.

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Speaker 1: You just heard from Phil Acres. He was once pretty

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Speaker 1: good friends with him. I first tracked Phil down in

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Speaker 1: late twenty twenty four while I was trying to learn

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Speaker 1: everything I could about Perry. Their friendship started in Melbourne's

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Speaker 1: out of Suburbs. But this time Phil's chatting to me

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Speaker 1: from room in far north western Australia. We're facetiming over

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Speaker 1: a shaky connection as he and his wife tour all

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Speaker 1: around the Australian Outback.

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Speaker 4: I had a factory in general house Berry brought the

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Speaker 4: factory next door, and I'm not sure the exact date

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Speaker 4: that it could be around two thousand and six. They're

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Speaker 4: on a I'm not sure the exact date, and we

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Speaker 4: got to know him because like he was an next

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Speaker 4: door neighbor at the factory.

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Speaker 1: Most of what I've been able to learn about Perry

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Speaker 1: and his family picks up from the two thousands because

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Speaker 1: he pretty much stayed off the radar until then. His

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Speaker 1: parents eventually left the Karunblas family home in Bendigo Street

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Speaker 1: and Collingwood and went back to their native Greece. He

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Speaker 1: was seventeen years old when the Sues were killed, and

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Speaker 1: likely got into Melbourne's SHARPI scene for a little while.

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Speaker 1: If Kate Buck's memory of him in episode two is

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Speaker 1: Anything to Go By Andreas, one of Perry's brothers, went

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Speaker 1: back to Greece too, and he lives in Athens now,

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Speaker 1: but Perry and his other brother Tony stayed in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like Perry led a pretty simple life as.

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Speaker 4: A sat was sort of guy. He spent a lot

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Speaker 4: of time working there by himself. He would obviously go

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Speaker 4: out fishing by himself at times. You know, we went

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Speaker 4: in a couple of times together. And he had some

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Speaker 4: friends that I met, and they seem I can't remember

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Speaker 4: their names or but guys were just not a bed

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Speaker 4: sort of blakes that you could meet anywhere.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 1: Perry had become a welder and he'd often make rod

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Speaker 1: fences for clients from that factory in Dandeell. And when

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Speaker 1: he wasn't working or fishing, he'd be working on his

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Speaker 1: own DIY projects.

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Speaker 4: He had a motorbike and a car. Towards the end

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Speaker 4: of I'm not sure the exact date, but around two

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Speaker 4: thousand and fifteen he bought an old school bus and

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Speaker 4: was converting it into a motor home.

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Speaker 1: And Phil says it wasn't unusual for Perry to travel

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Speaker 1: back to Greece to see his family. By twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: his mother wasn't doing too well.

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Speaker 4: He would go every now and then go over to

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Speaker 4: Greece to visit his mother who was sick. Apparently the

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Speaker 4: government after the Second World War had an arrangement. The

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Speaker 4: Greek people came here, they would get their pension if

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Speaker 4: they go back to Greece. Perry used to go over,

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Speaker 4: as I said, to look after her for a few

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Speaker 4: weeks at a time, and then she got Bill and

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Speaker 4: that's when, to my knowledge, that's when he left to

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Speaker 4: go over there and look after a while. She was

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Speaker 4: badly ill.

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Speaker 1: Field didn't realize it, but just a couple of years

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Speaker 1: later he'd be seeing his fishing buddy Perry for what

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Speaker 1: would turn out to be the last time.

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Speaker 4: He just said he was going to Greece to see

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Speaker 4: his mother. At that stage, you know, nothing was permanent.

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Speaker 4: Was just another trip over to Greece, and then in

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Speaker 4: our communications he said that she was pretty well on

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Speaker 4: his to stay there.

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Speaker 2: In the next episode of Hunting Justice, I was in.

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Speaker 4: My apartment in glen Waverley and when it came on

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Speaker 4: the news and it near knocked me off the bloody couch.

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Speaker 4: I was a dumbfounded