WEBVTT - What Osher Günsberg did next 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.959 Hello, and welcome to Something to Talk About, the Stellar podcast. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.200 I'm Sarah Lamarquin, your host, and every week I sit 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.360 down with some of the biggest names in the country 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.320 because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they come 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:22.759 to Something to Talk About. It's been a big year 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.480 for Osher Ginsburg. In March, he turned fifty. Two months later, 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.680 in May, it was announced that the two shows he's 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.640 been hosting for several years, The Bachelor and The Mask Singer, 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.360 would not be returning to our screens. But here's the thing, 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.599 Osha wasn't surprised. In fact, he'd been preparing for the 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:47.519 news for a long time because, having experienced the soaring 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.920 highs and the painful lows during his three decades in 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.000 show business, he'd already learned the hard way. What can 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.240 happen when losing a job takes you by surprise. 0:00:57.720 --> 0:00:59.560 You might book that big show for one day, that's 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.200 showsking it canceled unless you're hosting the six colt news 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.240 that format one day people are gonna watch it anymore. 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:05.520 So what are you going to do then? And you'd 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:06.479 better be ready for that day? 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.039 With his usual candor, Osher joins me on something to 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.039 talk about today, to chat about how he learned to 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.520 be better prepared for life to change on a dime, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.000 the personal health struggles he chronicles in his new documentary 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.320 A World of Pain, and what might draw him back 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:28.120 to television permanently one day. Washa Ginsburg, Welcome to the 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:28.959 Stellar Podcast. 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:29.759 Thanks for having me. 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.360 It is lovely to have you here. 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.560 Though you know there's a lot of cameras for your house. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.000 There are a lot of cameras. There's a lot of 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.640 heat radiating from these lights as well. I would love 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.080 if you would join us at some point as a 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.920 consultant director. I have to say, listeners, Osha has come 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.360 in and is just in thirty seconds in a really 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:57.320 good natured, graceful, effortless way, has just tweaked things. I'm like, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.040 hire this man immediately. 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:04.280 I've been in broadcasting since so for thirty years I've 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.560 been in broadcasting, and I was a roadie before that, 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.600 which is one of the reasons that we're hearing age now. 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.640 But if you're able to add value at every point, 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:17.320 you're going to be okay in your career. Even at 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:19.440 the moment when I don't have a regular TV gig. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.560 If I can show up and add value, then you're 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:23.920 a valuable person to be around. 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.799 Well, I love it and it certainly worked its magic here. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.440 I really do mean that. I think to come into 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.160 somebody's orbit and workspace and add value is you want 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:34.639 to do literally in. 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.840 Value without downgrading what is already happening. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.280 You mentioned that you've been in broadcasting for thirty years, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.560 when you have had the inevitable highs and lows during 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.880 that time. One of the periods, of course, this year, 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.120 was back in May you lost two jobs. 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:52.760 In my old Well, that's when I talked about it. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.600 I knew it was happening six months earlier you did. 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.920 And I love this because you were sort of preparing 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.200 for it as well. So for obviously just to catch 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.919 up our audience. And we're talking about the Mask Singer 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.200 and The Bachelor being announced to Australia that they would 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.480 be no more on the one day, and of course, Osha, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.440 you had been the steady face of both of those, 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.960 I mean The Bachelor for ten years, a Bachelor Australia. 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.960 You were the founding host of that show and the 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.840 heartbeat literally of that show to it's many incarnation heartbeat. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.760 I wanted to ask you a little bit about getting 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.160 through that day, because, as you say, you had seen 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.320 it come, and you wrote a great piece for Men's 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.560 Health earlier this year about how the same thing had happened, 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:41.200 hence the Godfather reference in twenty twelve, and so without 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:45.560 any defeatist or negative attitude, you had been bracing for 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.440 it in the most constructive way possible. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.720 Well, it's like, you know, if you play an RL, 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.280 if you play rugby league, all right, you may be 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:55.800 nineteen and you may be getting picked all the time, 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.760 you might even make the Origin team. Yet you know 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.880 there's no thirty eight year olds playing. There's not one 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.920 ACL or MCL or shoulder that still exists unscathed than 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.120 any of those people who've finished. At some point, you've 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.240 got to think about, well, if I make it to 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.440 that point where I get to retire under my own terms, 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.960 what happens? But also every single time I touch the ball, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.479 through no fault of my own, just backing someone up 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:24.520 on a tackle, I could have an injury that ends 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:25.480 everything today. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.800 What do I do then? All right, and you have. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:31.800 To be thinking about that all the time, not like 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.880 you want to be focusing on what you're making, but 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.839 you also have to kind of be aware that should 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.279 you not have Like I like to talk about this 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.520 when I go and speak to people about keeping your 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.200 brain on, you know in the green zone when you're working. 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:49.479 The antidote to panic is a plan. 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:50.040 Okay. 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.919 My former manager's passed away now called John Ferreder. He 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.080 used to say, you may book that big show, but 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.640 one day that show is going to get canceled because 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.720 no matter so even if, like unless you're hosting the 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.120 six o'clock news that format, one day people are gonna 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:05.520 watch it anymore. So what are you going to do then? 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.360 And you better be ready for that day. Now I 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.680 have been unready for that day. I know what that's 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.760 like to be not prepared. I never wanted to do 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.839 that again. So the you know, I went to business 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.599 school before I started Batch, and one of the things 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.760 that I learned there was, you know, portioning up my time. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.560 And there's a percentage of time that I spend on 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.280 just making the next thing shelf like shovel ready essentially, 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.200 as they say in politics, shove already and just be 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.400 working on those things and have them ready to deploy 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.520 and kind of have an idea of where it's going 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:39.159 and every time. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:40.800 Yeah, but I was a. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.640 Single man when I started making that TV show, and 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:45.719 then I had a girlfriend who had a kid, and 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:47.320 then I had a fiance who had a kid. And 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.520 then I had a step dorder and a wife, and 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:51.080 then I had a wife and a step daughter and 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.200 a son, and then that all, you know, things very different. 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.599 So that plan does need to change with you as 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.760 you go. But you always need to think, Okay, look ahead, 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.120 what's going on. Let's have a look here, how many 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.400 more seasons of this game or whatever it is that 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.480 we're playing, and be ready for that day and communicate 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.719 with you know, whoever is involved. Like in this case 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.400 with Ordery, my wife, it's like pretty sure, like by 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.600 twenty four it's we're not going to have it anymore. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.640 So let's start getting ready for this. And look that 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:22.479 also comes with like me like I don't. 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.920 Know how to do that. So hire an account that does. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:30.520 And that pays itself off. But if you give yourself 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.599 that space, you know you're and you take the time 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.839 and you make the sacrifices you need to make to 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.080 put that cash aside, that runway aside. What you buy 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.279 is something you cannot afford any other time in the 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.760 world you are buying something completely available in that as 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:49.800 the time to make a choice, a time that is 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.120 not driven by any kind of desperation. I've been in 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.120 that position. I've taken jobs for money. I have been 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.520 with no cash flow at all and be like, oh, crikey, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.039 I'm going to do now. Nobody likes to be in 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:07.120 that position, but thankfully we You know, it's not easy, 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:12.600 and nobody is thrilled about it, you know so, But 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.040 it's a part of the job that I've chosen, and 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:16.000 that's that's okay. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.000 I don't know how to do anything else, so this 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:18.680 is it. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:21.520 It's also about in life in general. None of us 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.720 can ever predict or control what's around the corner, professionally 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.480 or personally, or in the wider global environment around us. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.440 But we can only learn to control our reaction to it. 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.239 And you turn fifty early this year, late happy birthday, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.040 by the way. To have that sense of whatever you 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.080 want to call it, agility resilience has got to be 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.920 probably the greatest gift that you could hope for at 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:48.840 any point in your life. 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.240 It's pretty lucky. I'm pretty lucky I learned how to 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:51.560 do it. 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:53.600 I didn't know how to do this long time ago, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:58.400 and setbacks would just sideline me completely and it was 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.920 it was bad, you know, I let this stuff destroy me. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:04.920 And there was a whole period when. 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:08.720 I lived in America about ten years, and I would 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:10.880 go to meetings and I would have this idea, like, 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:12.640 there's these rules of show business and one of them 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.480 came from Charlie Clauson, the actor and podcaster. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.000 It's either a fast yes or a slow no. And 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:20.400 as the nose. 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:26.400 Start to get slower and slower, that's your clue. As 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.680 the yes is slow down, you're like, they're not that 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.360 into it, all right. And so I used to get 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.240 a fast yes in a meeting in the room all 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:33.720 the time. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.240 But I was walking around with a stink of desperation 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:37.600 on me. 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.400 And I would take meetings with people I work really 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.160 hard to get these meetings a big heavy hitters about 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.200 you know, hosting TV shows or you know format se 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.480 I was creating, and they would just passing the room man, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:51.480 And that never happened in my career. 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:53.400 It's like, what am. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.280 I bringing to this? Because the idea is good, what 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:57.679 am I bringing to this? And I had to really 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.360 have a look at myself. I was like, I'm walking 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.920 in with this sense of this is everything, Please are 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.800 yes to me, and nobody wants that. You know, people 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.439 don't want to be the one that's pulling you out 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.760 of them, you know, out of the meyer and true. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.199 Nobody wants to rescue anybody. And I was walking in 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:14.280 with please save this, save me, save me, save me, 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:15.040 and nobody wants that. 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:16.800 Nobody wants to work with that person. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:19.760 So I had to kind of figure out how to 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.160 not do that, which I did. 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.360 But yeah, I'm grateful that I don't really have that now. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:26.560 I want to go back a little bit to the 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.920 Bachelor event of that turning point in your life. You 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.680 mentioned that's where you met your wife ten years ago 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:37.800 now to fourteen, and you have a copiring a stepdaughter 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.440 with her, and you have a son who's turning six 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.600 I think soon, Wolfgang, that is a huge part of 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:48.280 I imagine what you associate with that professional time in your life. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.880 But the Osha Ginsburg that's come out the other side 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.840 of that experience of the Bachelor Australia is this extremely resilient, 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.959 well loved person. So what it did for your career 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.160 in Australia can you explain. 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.520 That I reckon pretty soon after I got to the 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:13.200 point of the way I approached my work. Now, right 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:15.960 after all that stuff happened, all that, you know, being 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.439 told no in the room. It took a lot of work, 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:21.800 and you know, I had to hear a lot of 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.520 things that were very uncomfortable to hear from people I 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.200 had my best interests at heart, but people who are like, 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.200 i'll tell you why, you're ready to hear it, And 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:32.160 I didn't want to hear it. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:33.840 But I wasn't ready to hear it. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.480 But I heard it, I was like, okay, And I 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:42.000 think it's having this humility to accept that my ideas 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.559 are no longer getting what I want out of life, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.760 and that this is the best ideas I've had so far, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:49.760 and the best ideas of has a very getting people 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.480 to say no to me in the room when it 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.800 comes to, you know, looking for work or something like that. 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.800 So I might have to listen to someone else's ideas 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.360 because mine, I'm out, this is the best I can do, 0:10:59.559 --> 0:10:59.839 and that. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:00.840 With anything right. 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.559 And so once I started listening to those ideas and 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.440 started actively going. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:07.240 Well, I know what happens if I do things this way. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.240 I'm going to actively try to do things this way 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.000 because I already know how that works out, so I 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:12.320 can always got back to that if I want. 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:13.920 It's not going where I want to go, though, can 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:15.240 me try this? See what happens? 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.280 And that led to I mean, this is also part 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.760 of fourteen and a half years or a little bit 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.959 more of being sober. It's a very different way of 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:26.880 approaching life and a very different wave of approaching my 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.280 work and how thinking about how it is that I 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.840 show up to a job and how it is who 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.600 I get to be when I go and work with 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:43.160 people on a project. And that started to shape pretty 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:49.679 early in my sobriety, and it's definitely what became you know, 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.720 what became who I then returned to Australia to work 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:56.839 for ten weeks on season one, and then I think 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.040 it was sixteen weeks on season two, which is. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:00.040 When I met Ordinary. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.559 And it was very different experience at work and I 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.560 love you know, I loved it. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:08.760 It's very much a way of. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.080 A There's a cover band that's created out of a 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:17.200 bunch of southern Northern Californian punk bands called Me First 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.200 in the GIMMI gimmis, and it was very previous to 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.680 stopping drinking musing. That was definitely that, all right, I 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.960 was definitely this. But now I if I could show 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.360 up to work and my only my only goal is 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.680 to be just the most professional person that I can be, 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.080 and I just want to try to make everyone else's 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.400 day as easy as it can be, all Right. 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.200 I kind of got this from when I first worked 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:46.040 in television. I was twenty five. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.760 I've got a hired channel V which is now no 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.440 longer existing music channel, and my boss, who I met 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.280 for my first ever interview, she goes, right, what I 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.800 want for you when you leave here, for people to say, 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:07.080 where the fuck did you come from? And that kind 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.200 of and that's just the way that they hired people. 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.120 That's what they wanted for every employee was we just 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.000 want you to grow so much that when you leave here, 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.680 people are what And that's kind of what I It 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.280 took me a while to kind of understand and remember that, 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:25.760 Oh yeah, that's the kind of thing that I want 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.080 to be. And so if I can be that for 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.200 people and just make everyone else's day on set as 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.000 easy as possible, what am I doing? I'm standing in 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.960 the right spot, because when you're in television, you can't 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:38.560 just be everywhere. 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.000 You've got to be where the cameras are going. You know, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:41.640 you got to do it. 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.480 You don't mess around with your microphone, Know your words, 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:48.440 Know exactly what the producers and the editorial team wanting 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.120 to get out of this exact moment. Know exactly where 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.400 you're going next, what you just come from. Once, if 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.640 you fixed your hair and your wardrobe, don't touch it. 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:57.480 Don't touch your hair again. 0:13:57.520 --> 0:13:59.319 Don't touch your clothes again because others, someone's going to 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.000 have to come sort it out and then nail it 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:07.160 and then they go, oh, we're done, that's lunch everyone. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.840 You're like, great, And if I do all those things 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.199 for all these people, what am I to me doing. 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:14.840 I'm actually I end up doing a really great job. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:17.319 But I'm not doing it because I want to look great. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.480 I'm doing it because I want us all to have 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.040 a great day and because we all make this thing together. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:24.560 You know, I just happen to be the person that 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.280 people see. But when you're making a show like that, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.040 there's something like mask Man, there's like one hundred and 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.760 six people on the call sheet and without one of them, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.040 the show doesn't go and without one of them doing 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.320 absolutely everything at the right moment in time, along with 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:40.800 the other one hundred and five people moving like a 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.520 super mechanical, very complicated gearbox, the show doesn't work and 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.960 so everyone's got to do their thing. 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.200 I want to talk to you while you're about gender 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.800 politics because you're a big champion of women, and that 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.000 was evident on the show, and I know is very 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.520 much evident as you've just really talked about a lot 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.640 of those people that you've supported and nurtured have been 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.320 women who have now moved on to really amazing careers. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.080 I loved The Bachelor Australia. I remember every moment of 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.200 twenty thirteen. I thought Bachelor was pretty sexist format, but 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.880 I couldn't look away. And what I found is that 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.240 the gender dynamics have been amazing because first of all, 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.000 it felt like the women stopped competing against each other 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.120 and became friends. And we've actually seen through all of 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.160 the different incarnations of the Bachelor that started to be 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.520 replicated on screen as well as off screen. But also 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.520 the women then went on and I would argue really 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.360 sort of changed the face of Australian media. As we know, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.240 a lot of the women that came through that show 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.400 have big careers now. The ones that have sat here 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.320 opposite me, for instance, in the last eighteen months, have 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.960 included Abby Chatfield, Brittany Hockley, Georgia love Brook Blurton. 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.280 I can see where you're trying to go. 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:03.520 But for any cultural product to work, it needs to 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:09.280 be relatable to the people who are consuming that cultural product. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:14.760 You know, you would not want to put a primetime 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.120 TV show about the Bundesliga on in Australia because culturally 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:23.440 domestic German football isn't I mean, we understand it. Yeah, 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.760 there's the ball that goes in there. People get excited, 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:30.400 but it's not related to who we are. Anything that's 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.800 on television, as much as we probably don't want to 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.000 admit it, even the really grubby ones that people you know, 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.800 watch for shaden freuder purposes. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.480 It reflects who we are as a community. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:45.800 So you mentioned the word sexist and you won't mention 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:48.200 the word gender politics. I think that is in itself 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.040 is a reflection on where we are as a community 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:51.720 or where we were as a community in twenty fifteen, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.360 and that begins a conversation that we need to kind 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:01.520 of have And so I think I'm really grateful that. 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.800 If there's anything about you know, formats. 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.119 Like that, is they they allow you to almost Trojan 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.960 Horse conversations that the otherwise wouldn't have. So dr Amy 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:17.320 Tunique is in brook Blatant season, doctor Ami thy Nich 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:21.280 was a Brook's best mate, is Brook's best mate and 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.560 thirteen words She asked both the final two if I 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.920 asked you what country you grew up on or will 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:29.479 you live right now? 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:30.560 Could you tell me what it was? 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.760 And both of them said no, that simple question made 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.000 it into primetime television. This is years before the voice 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.679 referendum or anything like that. That in itself, framed in 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:44.479 that direction, was like, actually, I don't know, huh, And 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.680 now you kind of having a conversation about I guess, yeah, 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:51.879 there would have been people here and that hill and 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:58.480 that stream and you know that bay or whatever. Yeah, ah, 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.080 whichever way you feel about this, at least it opens 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.520 your mind up to these things. And so TV formats 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:09.640 like that allow us to make questions and question perhaps 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:14.320 moral norms that we have always had, you know, when 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.800 it comes to gender politics, as as the mother of sons, 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.760 I don't know about you, but I am very, very 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.719 interested in masculinity and how we might be able to 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.639 frame masculinity. And the conversation that I had with Harry 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.280 Garside on the podcast this week, we got right into 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:38.040 it and he's an amazing guy, wonderful, wonderful man. We've 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.640 done and in the last thirty years, fifty definitely last 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.159 thirty years, we have done amazingly as a community. Is 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.080 everyone room to move? 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:45.760 Absolutely? 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:49.160 Yet fifty years ago, and that's my lifetime, nineteen seventy 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.119 four I was born. You can go from what was 0:18:53.119 --> 0:19:00.440 that to a woman can be a CEO, a mother, hot, sultry, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:07.400 powerfully sexy, not sexy at all, clam drab, entrepreneur, all 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.760 of these things at once, none of these things at once, 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.000 and they're all We have permission for all of it, all. 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:14.600 Right, we have names for all of it. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.480 I we mentioned before we started rolling, but I gave 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:20.960 a high and a cuddle to one of like the 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.600 full megapower humans of like she's unbelievable. She works in 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.720 this building and she would not have ever had that job, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.880 you know, fifty years ago, never would It wouldn't be like, oh, really, 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.720 we're going to walk on the Moon's true luck, buddy. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.679 And but yet, so we've expanded the definition of what 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.840 it means to be a woman in our community, Yet 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:45.959 the definition of what it is to be a man 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:47.200 in our community. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.120 Is like I am alone wolf that eats what I. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:50.080 Kill or. 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.280 And there's no in between. 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.760 And if you give men nowhere to go, if you 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:03.400 give men nowhere to to exist in this space, then 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:09.120 what happens right where? But normal, you know, all those 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.080 things I mentioned, all those mentioned things I mentioned before 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.720 are absolutely normal, healthy expressions of femininity. 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.960 There are absolutely normal, healthy expressions of masculinity as well. 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:20.520 But if we label them as as it's toxic. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.560 No, it's just that's literal and not And boys being 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:28.520 boys has been like there's that's a phrase that's kind 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.200