WEBVTT - Exposing our deadly reality: Dr Vince Hurley Pt.2 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:04.920 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Detective sy a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.120 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.240 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.160 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.439 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.800 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.479 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.680 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.800 Welcome back to my chat with Vince Early, who uses 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.120 his experience as a cop and an academic to identify 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.480 and address issues relating to policing and the criminal justice 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.000 system in a very pragmatic way. Are you happy with 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:57.720 that introduction? 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:58.560 That's beautiful. 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.440 That's beautiful that I say it right, That's what you 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.640 wanted me to say it. Look, obviously, Vince and I 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:07.960 have history and we do joke around a bit, but 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.760 I'm serious when I'm saying this to you, Vince, not 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.680 the listeners that your opinion on law and all the 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.360 issues do count. And I like you the view that 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.920 you take on law and order, and there is so 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.960 much to talk about. Your passion comes across as your 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.200 Q and a outbursts that made you a YouTube sensation, 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.640 embarrass your children, so many other things about crime I 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.800 want to talk about. We left part one talking about 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:39.560 domestic violence and the terrible consequences of it. I had 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.040 a conversation with you before you came on, and I 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:46.440 was talking about meeting Hannah Clark's parents and Sue and 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:51.080 Lloyd Lloyd Clark, who are just such impressive people. People 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:53.840 know the name Hannah Clark and the three children were 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.920 set alight in a made a vehicle as a result 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:02.240 of domestic violence, horrendous crime, and Sue and Lloyd have 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.160 been campaigning. I think they part of the thing that 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:09.240 they campaigned for was the introduction of coercive control. I've 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.480 had them on the been fortunate enough to speak to 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.760 them on the podcast, and we're talking about domestic violence, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:20.160 and I made the point to them. I said, if 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.600 the offender was forced to wear an ankle bracelet that 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.600 notified Hannah if he was in five kilometers, because there 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.200 were indicators there something bad was going to happen. You 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.320 could see it. It was building up, and I think 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:40.600 that was what everyone's frustration was. Ankle bracelets. Criminologist X 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:44.600 cop you've got opinions on law and order. I just 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:49.800 struggle to understand why we don't utilize ankle bracelets. And 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.239 I just think it's such a simple process that if 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:56.440 the victim and the perpetrator, if the perpetrator comes within 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.720 five climbers, ten klombs, whatever radius you want to set, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.600 and the victim is notified that person is in the area, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.120 it might give them some peace, It might give them 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.880 some comfort. During COVID, the crazy management of that, we 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.480 managed to track where everyone went in the country. Get 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.520 your thoughts. Why can't we adopt ankle bracelets? Am I 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:19.919 looking at it too simplistically? 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:27.959 No, you're not surprisingly. No, Yeah, you're right about being 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.120 a serious issue, but it's just my sense of humor. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.480 You were never funny. That's why that's why your career ended. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.000 You've got thrown off a roof. Do you reflect on 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:38.240 why that person threw you off the roof? 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.320 No, but I will on the way home. Ankle bracelets. 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.120 There's a couple of things. And as we spoke about 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.520 a couple of weeks ago at Rainbow Lodge, it's amazing. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:54.920 How as to former police, you know, I've seeing the 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.240 pit of humanity, how your views change about life and 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.040 about crime and things like that. And it would be 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.120 tragic if our views on life and crime didn't change. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.240 That's what individuals are So ankle bracelets. I won't give 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.520 the exact number because I know exactly how many there 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.560 are in New South Wales, but we're not talking about hundreds. Unfortunately, 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.440 ankle bracelets are used for medium to high risk offenders 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:27.080 who have been identified for violent domestic violence. So there's 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.360 a couple of things. There are going to be offenders 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:32.760 like that bloke in Queensland and I won't mention his 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.160 name who, for whatever reason, you will never be able 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:41.000 to prevent from murdering Hannah and the children. There are 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:42.920 just recouncilor and says you would well know that's what 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.359 jail's for, thank god. But no matter if she was 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.080 wearing an ankle bracelet. Having read the coronial report, I 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.400 don't believe that that would have prevented him ended up 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.360 killing her. If not, then then then. 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.279 Later could I just pose that there what say he 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.120 had the ankle bracelet. He's been charged with offences and 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.919 very strict conditions that if he comes within five kilometer 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:12.400 radius and he breaches those conditions, And I hate mandatory sentencing, 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.760 and I'm sure you're of the same view. Every case 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.160 needs to be adjudicated, but there will be a sentence. 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.560 And then he gets out and he's got that bracelet 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.080 on again. If the bracelet gets cut off, he's back 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.640 in jail. If he comes within five kilometers of her 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.640 and it's not justifiable as in a pure accident, he 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.760 goes back to jail. Couldn't that circumvent it? 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.159 Yes, it could. The thing that people have a look 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.920 of ankle bracelets is that as you and I know 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:43.160 that they get cut off. Secondly, the offender, they will 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:45.479 let the battery run out. It has to be charged. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.719 It's just like a mobile phone. It has to be charged, 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.440 and the battery has to be recharged every I don't 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.080 know how many hours it is, but it has to 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.520 be rech out. So if the offender lets it run 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.040 out or run down, even accidentally, and I know this 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.039 has happen, been in the past, then they can't be 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.680 tracked because there's no signal being given out. 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:07.400 But okay, and if that's the case, he's breached it 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:08.680 again and he gets charged. 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.480 Yeah. The other thing that they do, and I'll answer 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.680 the point exactly in the minute, they wrap it in 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.120 ol foil so they can't be tracked, or they'll put 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.560 it in another vehicle and that someone will drive out 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.800 to Whoopwarp where they'll lose its signal. So if you 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.720 look at the East Coast of Australia, most of the 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.839 tracking is on the East Coast of Australia because there's 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.479 a lot of mobile phone towers. But if you went inland, 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.880 it'd be totally different. So you're right. So if he 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.840 had breached that for sure, arrest him, lock him up 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.680 and you know, just throw away the key. A surprising thing. 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.640 And I actually know a man and I won't say 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.919 who it is that actually wears one and it's not 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.160 for as crimes of violence, but nothing for domestic arguments. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:58.400 And he was saying that his partner when he goes 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.880 within a buffer zone wherever that he is, and it 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.560 goes off and she goes off with her to let 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.360 her know. It actually causes her a bit of anxiety 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.480 because she knows that he is in close proximity, whether 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.200 it be coincidental or not, But she also draws strength 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.840 from that knowing that there is a degree of a 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.520 buffer zone there. But the problem is that there are 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:29.080 only x amount and there's lack of corrective services staff 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.800 to be able to honor the ankle bracelets you would need. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.080 And I don't crape on this figure, but I think 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.720 there was last year this year twenty one thousand breaches 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.720 of a ABO. Even if you had ten thousand ankle bracelets, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.800 it's not going to be enough and you need people 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.560 to man that. But I totally agree, you know, any 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.640 damage to the ankle bracelet, cutting it off, whatever, they 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.200 should have a mandatory sentence. Absolutely. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.560 Look, I know it comes down the resourcing, but yeah, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:09.320 and finances, fiscal everything comes into play. But to me, 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.360 I know, if someone was stalking me and someone was 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.160 going to kill me, and that person's got a bracelet 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.960 on and I've got a monitor that lets me know 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.200 if that person's come, that would give me a peace 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.440 of mind. And if it did go off, he's not 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:28.640 going to get me unprepared. So I just I think technology, 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:30.920 we've got to we've got to embrace it. And I 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.360 get frustrated because I saw when we're told things can't 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.400 be done during COVID, that poor bloke that went and 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:41.960 tried to buy a barbecue tracked all around Sydney. Yeah, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:47.640 it's possible. So I get I'm starting to sound like 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:50.280 you on Q and A. How stupid do you have 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.760 to be? Sorry, I'm getting whipped up, but it's true. Yeah, 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.200 I think there's something there that we've really got to. Okay, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.160 how do we address it. We've talked in part one 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:07.040 about helping men retrain or focus on development so they 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.720 don't go down that path, but short term do that. Yeah, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.080 and you don't get a bracelet first time. Some it's 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:18.880 an offence, but then it escalates second defense. Bad luck, buddy, 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.760 you're wearing this bracelet. I don't care if it embarrasses 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:22.600 you when you're at the beach. 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.559 Just a good point, because that's a really good point 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.880 because if the Bosco News Bureau Crime Statistics Research put 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.400 out a report earlier this year on its effectiveness, and 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.520 they are effective. And one of the things that said, 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.600 which Nely choked on the weedis was that men are 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.520 worried about being stigmatized, and I thought, well, since when 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.840 has it ever been about the men being signatized? Who cares? Yeah? 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.680 Yeah, well I think so, And let's make a bright 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:54.800 orange right person, it's really embarrassed. Yeah, but anyway, just 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:59.959 a thought. Juvenile crime it's yeah, it's in the media. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.199 Got hold of that. That's a topic of discussion. But 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.360 that does really appear that there's a lot of problems 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:09.280 going on with juvenile crime. Criminologist x cop, university lecturer 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.280 and all round good guy. Sorry, just check him the notes. 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.240 How can we address juvenile crime? 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.920 So, as a father of four teenage children. 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:23.040 Ankle bracelets. 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.880 Absolutely, not one, but two and went around their neck. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:29.439 Ah. 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.079 Look, juvenile crime it always seems to be out of control. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.920 Whether that's fact or whether it's or media, it's hard 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:46.000 to know. Certainly lowering the in Queensland to having the 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.040 age it was criminal responsibility at ten. I think it's 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.880 just appalling. I just think that ten is just is. 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:53.320 That what they're looking at? 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.760 Yeah, yeah, if it's not already law. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:57.559 Okay, explain that to the listener. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.439 What that So that means that if So generally speaking, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:03.839 when a person commits a crime, as we know that 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.280 they have the sufficient maturity and intellect to note what 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.319 they're doing is wrong. Exceptional circumstances, someone suffering mental health 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:15.880 issues for example. So if I am sixteen and I 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.719 go out and covores an arsenal murder someone, then the 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.720 law says that I have the mental capacity to understand 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.400 the motive and the intent and the consequences of my actions. 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.200 So what Queensland has done has the age of criminal 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.280 responsibility has been lowered from fourteen to ten. So that 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:37.599 means that a person who is fourteen, if they go 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.480 out and steal a car or do shoplifting, the law 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.240 says that they know it fourteen the difference between right 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.559 and wrong. They've got a moral compass. But now in 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.320 Queensland it's been lowered to ten. Now, to my mind, 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.720 as a father of fourteen aged children, a ten year 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:59.040 old child does not have the developmental capacity or maturity 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.800 to understand and the consequences of their action. Yes, they 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.959 might know it's wrong to steal or to break in 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.600 into a car or steal a car, but do they 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.000 understand you know, the consequences that might flow from that. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.920 So what they're saying is that someone who is ten 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.240 should be held fully responsible to the law and punished 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.839 by the law because they know what they're doing is 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.479 not only wrong, but it has an impact on society, 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:25.360 which I think is. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.800 Just that's it doesn't seem well, it doesn't sit well 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.000 with me, and even if there is a problem, you're 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.319 not fixing it by yeah. So you're looking at the 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.200 ten year old Yeah, that's yeah, and you don't comprehend 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.840 the consequences of your actions age. 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:44.439 And just actually taking that similar point. So we talk 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:49.280 about intergenerational trauma and violence and domestic violence. So I 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.120 was speaking to a woman a few weeks ago who 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.839 was in who was in a violent relationship and has 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:59.760 left her ten year seven Yeah, ten year old son 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:06.719 during the relationship started belting the seven year old sister. Now, 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:11.000 she made the valid point, and it's true that he 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.959 didn't he didn't know why he was doing it. He 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.040 was mimicking his father's behavior. He knew it was wrong, 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:20.160 but he didn't know he didn't have the mental maturity 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.679 COMPREHENDI yeah, to know that it was wrong. And now 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.920 she's worried that he'll end up like her father. So 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.920 when we talk about criminal responsibility and mimicking behavior, no 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:36.479 one at the age of ten you can can fully comprehend, 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.959 as you rightly say, the consequences so well. 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.959 Partly Queensland's move, it sounds like a political move. We're 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.959 getting tough with lower the age of the criminal responsibility 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.040 custody with kids. I have a bad, a real problem 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.360 problem with that. And I know they're the form of 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.720 the views, but I really have a problem. A diversion 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.280 there programs I think is much better, much better for 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.800 a child. Your thoughts on that, once you put them 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.840 in the system, it says so not just their self esteem, 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.240 but then the people they're looking up to the older 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.160 boys in the system and look at them, they're causing problems. 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:18.599 That's what I'm going to come out and be a 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:19.200 real criminal. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:20.880 If you'd asked me that when I was like Mount 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.440 drew It in the nineteen eighties, I wouldn't have cared less. 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:25.600 I would have gone. We had a saying, and I'm 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.160 almost a shame I tell the kids in classes. Kids, 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:30.680 almost a shame to say. But when I went to 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.640 Mount drew It in nineteen eighty one, which is pretty 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.400 well placed they said we never went We had a 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.320 saying we never went to work, we went to war, 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.000 and straight away the mindset at the time. Yeah, And 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:44.920 if you'd said to me about a ten year old 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.320 child at men drew It or Saint Mary's or Blacktown 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:50.760 or Penwuth, where I spent most of my career, I 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:55.000 wouldn't have cared less. But now it's maybe because you're 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.160 a parent and you look back and you go, wow, 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.040 you know the things I should have done or could 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:05.160 have done. But I think that you're right putting children. Look, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:05.960 it's a fine line. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.520 I understand the society's got to be protective. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:10.840 I understand that, yeah, and we also understand that the 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.040 kids have to be held responsible. There's no doubt about 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.520 that whatsoever. But you're right about it's being a political 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:21.880 issue about locking up children when you rightly say that 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.280 they're versionary programs in place. Now, I think and I 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.440 don't I didn't look at this, but when I was 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.400 at the Drug Summit, there was a figure quoted, and 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:32.240 I don't quote me on this, if I'm going to 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.920 say publicly, I think that for every one dollar spent 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.960 on rehabilitation, it saves the government something like five dollars 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.960 or seven dollars. But the problem is that the governments 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.680 don't because we mentioned political cycle, they don't say a 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.560 short term result from that. But it needs to be 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.920 a long term investment. I think any parent who raises 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.880 children know it's a challenging time. But you're right. Kids 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.800 have to be held response for their actions. And just 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.800 going back to the point I made earlier about when 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.360 I speak to the children at school and at UNI 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.400 about domestic violence, take the word domestic out of it. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:16.040 Boys need to be told that you just cannot hit women. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:20.400 It's just not on, no, and you have to be blunt. 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.240 And having twin sons who are eighteen, they are different 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.200 from their sisters, and I think boys have to be 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.720 told blunt, you just cannot bloody well do it. It's 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.960 just not on It's just under no circumstances cannot be done. 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:34.200 And boys, I think are hard wired and I could 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.920 be wrong, differently from women. It needs to be a 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.360 clean message. And even when you and Guess came back 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:42.720 to the earlier point about moving the word domestic from 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.480 the violence, when you talk to the kids at school 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.840 and at UNI, even the word sexual violence, they focus 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.600 on the word sexual rather than the violence. But we 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.760 know why they call it sexual violence because that's the 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.000 way that the Crimes Act defines it and it adds 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.960 an extra layer of you know, depravity to the So 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.000 again with the boys, it doesn't matter how young they are, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.359 you know, you know, there need to be boundaries. They 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.200 need to be told you just cannot hit women under 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:11.120 any circumstances. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.600 Well, the role model is so important in yeah, a 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.200 young young boy's life, and yeah, you've got to set 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.440 the standards. But that's the type of thing that we're 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:25.120 looking at with diversionary role models. Role models are critical. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.520 The amount of people I have sitting in here whose 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.720 life has gone off track, has turned their life around 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.000 because of a good role model, or you say, where 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.119 it go wrong, they had no one steering them in 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.560 the direction I think the figures are And again don't 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.240 quote me on it might have even come out in 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.960 one of these speeches at Rainbow Lodge. To keep an 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.000 adult person in custody over twelve months is one hundred 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.919 and fifty thousand, juvenile is two hundred and fifty thousand. 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.080 That's a shitload of money that could set up some 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.480 really good programs. People who have got the lived experience, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.960 people who have gone in the dark side or done 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.600 the bad things and come out and having these kids 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.240 look up to them and tell them this is not 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.200 the goal. You can get the trade. You can be 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.960 part of society and self esteem. Self esteem is what 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:15.760 they see with a lot of kids that go off track. 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.520 They haven't got a good self esteem because of the 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.320 environment they've grown up, even education. How many times and 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.360 you would have seen it in the cops when you've 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.879 got some poor blake you're charging with an the fence 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.560 and he's too embarrassed because he can't read all right, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.400 yeah and yeah, things like that, and so they lash out. 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.399 They lash out at school because they're having trouble reading 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.000 and writing, so they deflect from it by getting into 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:42.280 trouble and send out of the class. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.840 Yep, yep, exactly right. Literacy is amazing. You wouldn't think 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.280 in twenty twenty five or twenty twenty four to twenty 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.879 five that would actually be an issue at all. But 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:57.200 it is surprising just talking about people going off track. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.320 It's interesting that if you took that bloke who was 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.920 at Rainbow Lodge who gave that talk, he would be 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.520 a fantastic role model because of his life he is outstanding. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.160 So he obviously speed off the track and did whatever 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.439 he did and now he's a role model. So if 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.280 a person, a child is raised in an environment of 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.400 violence as domestic violence, and even if they come out 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.000 of that, if they're being exposed to it long enough 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.080 as a child and they're brought out of it, the 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:33.879 slightest stress or trigger in their life after that event 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.600 could easily spear them off the rails into a life 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.520 of crime or drugs and alcohol and violence. So when 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.240 we're talking about the formative years of children, it is 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.920 really so important that even if they are removed from 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.680 that environment, the damage is saying because once you've seen 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.880 domestic violence or violence, you can't undo it. You can't 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.560 undo it. And those poor kids who see it, who 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.359 are terrified by it, it stays with them for the 0:19:58.440 --> 0:19:59.200 rest of their life. 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.280 Got to break the cycle and the things that we 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.760 talk about. It's about getting smart on crime, not tough 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.679 on crime. And you know, when you speak to victims 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.240 and victims that have been through the ring and I've 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.080 lost loved ones, if you reduce crime, you reduce victims. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.240 So that pub talk, Oh you're gone soft. You going 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.840 soft non crime. If you reduce crime, you reduce victims. 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.639 That's a smart way of approaching it. 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.200 Yeah, and not only that, like crimes coming down in 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.760 society for decades, and of course of the media cycle. 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:32.680 You know, the media pick up on it. And I 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.040 asked the studness in class, is crime going up or down? 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.320 And they always say crimes going up? But in actual 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.760 fact it's coming down. Even though it's coming down, it's 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:45.120 still not acceptable. But you know the Yeah, the impact 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.359 and the cycle of violence and how kids are speared 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.639 into it. But it is, you know, you and I 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.879 and many people you know, we hear the rhetoric. And 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:57.800 I used to believe it tough on crime. 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.520 I used to believe I know what you're saying. So 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:02.520 I'm just not owning up to it. But I know 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:06.400 how ignorant you were early in your police career. Yeah, 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.240 let's stop them away the key. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.479 Yeah, like having decriminalization of cannabis. So I was at 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:16.480 the drug Summit. I am surprisingly for it to a point. 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.960 I mean a massive fan of pill testing. I think 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.399 that it should be a health issue. I'm not saying that. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.720 For example, someone at a music festival If they've got 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.720 one tablet for that'say, okay, But if they've got five 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.080 or ten, obviously that's going to be a supply issue. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.080 And I'm not certainly not saying that, you know, drugs 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.200 should be allowed to come into the country freely. No way, 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.120 It's absolutely no way. But I think that the reality 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:41.879 is that there will be a portion those we know 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.200 people that always use drugs, and if that can be 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.120 managed from a health perspective, that's great. I actually more 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.960 worry about the mental health impact of cannabis for schizophrenia 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.480 than I actually do about any other crime aspect of it. 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.320 And the notion that you know, cannabis leads to harder 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:01.439 crime that leads that doorway open. It's just it's an 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.119 urban myth. It doesn't. It just doesn't. It doesn't do that. 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.600 But you're raising the issue of the pill testing, and 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.920 I know, if any teenagers I know are going to 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.399