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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to my chat with Vince Early, who uses

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Speaker 1: his experience as a cop and an academic to identify

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Speaker 1: and address issues relating to policing and the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: system in a very pragmatic way. Are you happy with

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Speaker 1: that introduction?

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Speaker 2: That's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful that I say it right, That's what you

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Speaker 1: wanted me to say it. Look, obviously, Vince and I

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Speaker 1: have history and we do joke around a bit, but

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Speaker 1: I'm serious when I'm saying this to you, Vince, not

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Speaker 1: the listeners that your opinion on law and all the

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Speaker 1: issues do count. And I like you the view that

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Speaker 1: you take on law and order, and there is so

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Speaker 1: much to talk about. Your passion comes across as your

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Speaker 1: Q and a outbursts that made you a YouTube sensation,

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Speaker 1: embarrass your children, so many other things about crime I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about. We left part one talking about

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Speaker 1: domestic violence and the terrible consequences of it. I had

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Speaker 1: a conversation with you before you came on, and I

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Speaker 1: was talking about meeting Hannah Clark's parents and Sue and

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Lloyd Clark, who are just such impressive people. People

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Speaker 1: know the name Hannah Clark and the three children were

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Speaker 1: set alight in a made a vehicle as a result

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Speaker 1: of domestic violence, horrendous crime, and Sue and Lloyd have

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Speaker 1: been campaigning. I think they part of the thing that

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Speaker 1: they campaigned for was the introduction of coercive control. I've

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Speaker 1: had them on the been fortunate enough to speak to

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Speaker 1: them on the podcast, and we're talking about domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: and I made the point to them. I said, if

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Speaker 1: the offender was forced to wear an ankle bracelet that

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Speaker 1: notified Hannah if he was in five kilometers, because there

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Speaker 1: were indicators there something bad was going to happen. You

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Speaker 1: could see it. It was building up, and I think

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Speaker 1: that was what everyone's frustration was. Ankle bracelets. Criminologist X

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Speaker 1: cop you've got opinions on law and order. I just

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Speaker 1: struggle to understand why we don't utilize ankle bracelets. And

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Speaker 1: I just think it's such a simple process that if

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Speaker 1: the victim and the perpetrator, if the perpetrator comes within

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Speaker 1: five climbers, ten klombs, whatever radius you want to set,

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Speaker 1: and the victim is notified that person is in the area,

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Speaker 1: it might give them some peace, It might give them

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Speaker 1: some comfort. During COVID, the crazy management of that, we

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Speaker 1: managed to track where everyone went in the country. Get

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Speaker 1: your thoughts. Why can't we adopt ankle bracelets? Am I

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Speaker 1: looking at it too simplistically?

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Speaker 2: No, you're not surprisingly. No, Yeah, you're right about being

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Speaker 2: a serious issue, but it's just my sense of humor.

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Speaker 1: You were never funny. That's why that's why your career ended.

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Speaker 1: You've got thrown off a roof. Do you reflect on

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Speaker 1: why that person threw you off the roof?

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Speaker 2: No, but I will on the way home. Ankle bracelets.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of things. And as we spoke about

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago at Rainbow Lodge, it's amazing.

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Speaker 2: How as to former police, you know, I've seeing the

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Speaker 2: pit of humanity, how your views change about life and

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Speaker 2: about crime and things like that. And it would be

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Speaker 2: tragic if our views on life and crime didn't change.

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Speaker 2: That's what individuals are So ankle bracelets. I won't give

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Speaker 2: the exact number because I know exactly how many there

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Speaker 2: are in New South Wales, but we're not talking about hundreds. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: ankle bracelets are used for medium to high risk offenders

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Speaker 2: who have been identified for violent domestic violence. So there's

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Speaker 2: a couple of things. There are going to be offenders

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Speaker 2: like that bloke in Queensland and I won't mention his

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Speaker 2: name who, for whatever reason, you will never be able

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Speaker 2: to prevent from murdering Hannah and the children. There are

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Speaker 2: just recouncilor and says you would well know that's what

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Speaker 2: jail's for, thank god. But no matter if she was

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Speaker 2: wearing an ankle bracelet. Having read the coronial report, I

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Speaker 2: don't believe that that would have prevented him ended up

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Speaker 2: killing her. If not, then then then.

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Speaker 1: Later could I just pose that there what say he

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Speaker 1: had the ankle bracelet. He's been charged with offences and

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Speaker 1: very strict conditions that if he comes within five kilometer

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Speaker 1: radius and he breaches those conditions, And I hate mandatory sentencing,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure you're of the same view. Every case

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Speaker 1: needs to be adjudicated, but there will be a sentence.

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Speaker 1: And then he gets out and he's got that bracelet

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Speaker 1: on again. If the bracelet gets cut off, he's back

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Speaker 1: in jail. If he comes within five kilometers of her

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Speaker 1: and it's not justifiable as in a pure accident, he

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Speaker 1: goes back to jail. Couldn't that circumvent it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it could. The thing that people have a look

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Speaker 2: of ankle bracelets is that as you and I know

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Speaker 2: that they get cut off. Secondly, the offender, they will

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Speaker 2: let the battery run out. It has to be charged.

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Speaker 2: It's just like a mobile phone. It has to be charged,

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Speaker 2: and the battery has to be recharged every I don't

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Speaker 2: know how many hours it is, but it has to

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Speaker 2: be rech out. So if the offender lets it run

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Speaker 2: out or run down, even accidentally, and I know this

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Speaker 2: has happen, been in the past, then they can't be

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Speaker 2: tracked because there's no signal being given out.

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Speaker 1: But okay, and if that's the case, he's breached it

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Speaker 1: again and he gets charged.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The other thing that they do, and I'll answer

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Speaker 2: the point exactly in the minute, they wrap it in

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Speaker 2: ol foil so they can't be tracked, or they'll put

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Speaker 2: it in another vehicle and that someone will drive out

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Speaker 2: to Whoopwarp where they'll lose its signal. So if you

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Speaker 2: look at the East Coast of Australia, most of the

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Speaker 2: tracking is on the East Coast of Australia because there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of mobile phone towers. But if you went inland,

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Speaker 2: it'd be totally different. So you're right. So if he

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Speaker 2: had breached that for sure, arrest him, lock him up

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Speaker 2: and you know, just throw away the key. A surprising thing.

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Speaker 2: And I actually know a man and I won't say

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Speaker 2: who it is that actually wears one and it's not

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Speaker 2: for as crimes of violence, but nothing for domestic arguments.

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Speaker 2: And he was saying that his partner when he goes

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Speaker 2: within a buffer zone wherever that he is, and it

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Speaker 2: goes off and she goes off with her to let

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Speaker 2: her know. It actually causes her a bit of anxiety

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Speaker 2: because she knows that he is in close proximity, whether

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Speaker 2: it be coincidental or not, But she also draws strength

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Speaker 2: from that knowing that there is a degree of a

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Speaker 2: buffer zone there. But the problem is that there are

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Speaker 2: only x amount and there's lack of corrective services staff

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Speaker 2: to be able to honor the ankle bracelets you would need.

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Speaker 2: And I don't crape on this figure, but I think

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Speaker 2: there was last year this year twenty one thousand breaches

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Speaker 2: of a ABO. Even if you had ten thousand ankle bracelets,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to be enough and you need people

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Speaker 2: to man that. But I totally agree, you know, any

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Speaker 2: damage to the ankle bracelet, cutting it off, whatever, they

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Speaker 2: should have a mandatory sentence. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Look, I know it comes down the resourcing, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and finances, fiscal everything comes into play. But to me,

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Speaker 1: I know, if someone was stalking me and someone was

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Speaker 1: going to kill me, and that person's got a bracelet

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Speaker 1: on and I've got a monitor that lets me know

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Speaker 1: if that person's come, that would give me a peace

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Speaker 1: of mind. And if it did go off, he's not

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Speaker 1: going to get me unprepared. So I just I think technology,

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Speaker 1: we've got to we've got to embrace it. And I

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Speaker 1: get frustrated because I saw when we're told things can't

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Speaker 1: be done during COVID, that poor bloke that went and

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Speaker 1: tried to buy a barbecue tracked all around Sydney. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's possible. So I get I'm starting to sound like

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Speaker 1: you on Q and A. How stupid do you have

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Speaker 1: to be? Sorry, I'm getting whipped up, but it's true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there's something there that we've really got to. Okay,

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Speaker 1: how do we address it. We've talked in part one

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Speaker 1: about helping men retrain or focus on development so they

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Speaker 1: don't go down that path, but short term do that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you don't get a bracelet first time. Some it's

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Speaker 1: an offence, but then it escalates second defense. Bad luck, buddy,

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Speaker 1: you're wearing this bracelet. I don't care if it embarrasses

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Speaker 1: you when you're at the beach.

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Speaker 2: Just a good point, because that's a really good point

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Speaker 2: because if the Bosco News Bureau Crime Statistics Research put

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Speaker 2: out a report earlier this year on its effectiveness, and

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Speaker 2: they are effective. And one of the things that said,

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Speaker 2: which Nely choked on the weedis was that men are

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Speaker 2: worried about being stigmatized, and I thought, well, since when

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Speaker 2: has it ever been about the men being signatized? Who cares? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well I think so, And let's make a bright

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Speaker 1: orange right person, it's really embarrassed. Yeah, but anyway, just

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Speaker 1: a thought. Juvenile crime it's yeah, it's in the media.

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Speaker 1: Got hold of that. That's a topic of discussion. But

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Speaker 1: that does really appear that there's a lot of problems

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Speaker 1: going on with juvenile crime. Criminologist x cop, university lecturer

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Speaker 1: and all round good guy. Sorry, just check him the notes.

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Speaker 1: How can we address juvenile crime?

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Speaker 2: So, as a father of four teenage children.

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Speaker 1: Ankle bracelets.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, not one, but two and went around their neck.

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Speaker 1: Ah.

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Speaker 2: Look, juvenile crime it always seems to be out of control.

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Speaker 2: Whether that's fact or whether it's or media, it's hard

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Speaker 2: to know. Certainly lowering the in Queensland to having the

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Speaker 2: age it was criminal responsibility at ten. I think it's

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Speaker 2: just appalling. I just think that ten is just is.

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Speaker 1: That what they're looking at?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if it's not already law.

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Speaker 1: Okay, explain that to the listener.

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Speaker 2: What that So that means that if So generally speaking,

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Speaker 2: when a person commits a crime, as we know that

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Speaker 2: they have the sufficient maturity and intellect to note what

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Speaker 2: they're doing is wrong. Exceptional circumstances, someone suffering mental health

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Speaker 2: issues for example. So if I am sixteen and I

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Speaker 2: go out and covores an arsenal murder someone, then the

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Speaker 2: law says that I have the mental capacity to understand

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Speaker 2: the motive and the intent and the consequences of my actions.

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Speaker 2: So what Queensland has done has the age of criminal

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Speaker 2: responsibility has been lowered from fourteen to ten. So that

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Speaker 2: means that a person who is fourteen, if they go

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Speaker 2: out and steal a car or do shoplifting, the law

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Speaker 2: says that they know it fourteen the difference between right

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Speaker 2: and wrong. They've got a moral compass. But now in

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Speaker 2: Queensland it's been lowered to ten. Now, to my mind,

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Speaker 2: as a father of fourteen aged children, a ten year

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Speaker 2: old child does not have the developmental capacity or maturity

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Speaker 2: to understand and the consequences of their action. Yes, they

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Speaker 2: might know it's wrong to steal or to break in

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Speaker 2: into a car or steal a car, but do they

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Speaker 2: understand you know, the consequences that might flow from that.

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Speaker 2: So what they're saying is that someone who is ten

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Speaker 2: should be held fully responsible to the law and punished

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Speaker 2: by the law because they know what they're doing is

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Speaker 2: not only wrong, but it has an impact on society,

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Speaker 2: which I think is.

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Speaker 1: Just that's it doesn't seem well, it doesn't sit well

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Speaker 1: with me, and even if there is a problem, you're

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Speaker 1: not fixing it by yeah. So you're looking at the

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Speaker 1: ten year old Yeah, that's yeah, and you don't comprehend

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Speaker 1: the consequences of your actions age.

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Speaker 2: And just actually taking that similar point. So we talk

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Speaker 2: about intergenerational trauma and violence and domestic violence. So I

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Speaker 2: was speaking to a woman a few weeks ago who

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Speaker 2: was in who was in a violent relationship and has

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Speaker 2: left her ten year seven Yeah, ten year old son

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Speaker 2: during the relationship started belting the seven year old sister. Now,

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Speaker 2: she made the valid point, and it's true that he

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Speaker 2: didn't he didn't know why he was doing it. He

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Speaker 2: was mimicking his father's behavior. He knew it was wrong,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't know he didn't have the mental maturity

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Speaker 2: COMPREHENDI yeah, to know that it was wrong. And now

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Speaker 2: she's worried that he'll end up like her father. So

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Speaker 2: when we talk about criminal responsibility and mimicking behavior, no

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Speaker 2: one at the age of ten you can can fully comprehend,

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Speaker 2: as you rightly say, the consequences so well.

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Speaker 1: Partly Queensland's move, it sounds like a political move. We're

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Speaker 1: getting tough with lower the age of the criminal responsibility

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Speaker 1: custody with kids. I have a bad, a real problem

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Speaker 1: problem with that. And I know they're the form of

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Speaker 1: the views, but I really have a problem. A diversion

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Speaker 1: there programs I think is much better, much better for

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Speaker 1: a child. Your thoughts on that, once you put them

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Speaker 1: in the system, it says so not just their self esteem,

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Speaker 1: but then the people they're looking up to the older

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Speaker 1: boys in the system and look at them, they're causing problems.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm going to come out and be a

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Speaker 1: real criminal.

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Speaker 2: If you'd asked me that when I was like Mount

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Speaker 2: drew It in the nineteen eighties, I wouldn't have cared less.

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Speaker 2: I would have gone. We had a saying, and I'm

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Speaker 2: almost a shame I tell the kids in classes. Kids,

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Speaker 2: almost a shame to say. But when I went to

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Speaker 2: Mount drew It in nineteen eighty one, which is pretty

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Speaker 2: well placed they said we never went We had a

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Speaker 2: saying we never went to work, we went to war,

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Speaker 2: and straight away the mindset at the time. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: if you'd said to me about a ten year old

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Speaker 2: child at men drew It or Saint Mary's or Blacktown

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Speaker 2: or Penwuth, where I spent most of my career, I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have cared less. But now it's maybe because you're

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Speaker 2: a parent and you look back and you go, wow,

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Speaker 2: you know the things I should have done or could

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Speaker 2: have done. But I think that you're right putting children. Look,

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Speaker 2: it's a fine line.

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Speaker 1: I understand the society's got to be protective.

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Speaker 2: I understand that, yeah, and we also understand that the

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Speaker 2: kids have to be held responsible. There's no doubt about

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Speaker 2: that whatsoever. But you're right about it's being a political

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Speaker 2: issue about locking up children when you rightly say that

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Speaker 2: they're versionary programs in place. Now, I think and I

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Speaker 2: don't I didn't look at this, but when I was

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Speaker 2: at the Drug Summit, there was a figure quoted, and

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Speaker 2: I don't quote me on this, if I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say publicly, I think that for every one dollar spent

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Speaker 2: on rehabilitation, it saves the government something like five dollars

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Speaker 2: or seven dollars. But the problem is that the governments

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Speaker 2: don't because we mentioned political cycle, they don't say a

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Speaker 2: short term result from that. But it needs to be

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Speaker 2: a long term investment. I think any parent who raises

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Speaker 2: children know it's a challenging time. But you're right. Kids

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Speaker 2: have to be held response for their actions. And just

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Speaker 2: going back to the point I made earlier about when

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Speaker 2: I speak to the children at school and at UNI

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Speaker 2: about domestic violence, take the word domestic out of it.

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Speaker 2: Boys need to be told that you just cannot hit women.

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Speaker 2: It's just not on, no, and you have to be blunt.

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Speaker 2: And having twin sons who are eighteen, they are different

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Speaker 2: from their sisters, and I think boys have to be

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Speaker 2: told blunt, you just cannot bloody well do it. It's

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Speaker 2: just not on It's just under no circumstances cannot be done.

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Speaker 2: And boys, I think are hard wired and I could

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Speaker 2: be wrong, differently from women. It needs to be a

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Speaker 2: clean message. And even when you and Guess came back

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Speaker 2: to the earlier point about moving the word domestic from

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Speaker 2: the violence, when you talk to the kids at school

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Speaker 2: and at UNI, even the word sexual violence, they focus

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Speaker 2: on the word sexual rather than the violence. But we

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Speaker 2: know why they call it sexual violence because that's the

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Speaker 2: way that the Crimes Act defines it and it adds

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Speaker 2: an extra layer of you know, depravity to the So

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Speaker 2: again with the boys, it doesn't matter how young they are,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, there need to be boundaries. They

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Speaker 2: need to be told you just cannot hit women under

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Speaker 2: any circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Well, the role model is so important in yeah, a

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Speaker 1: young young boy's life, and yeah, you've got to set

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Speaker 1: the standards. But that's the type of thing that we're

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Speaker 1: looking at with diversionary role models. Role models are critical.

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Speaker 1: The amount of people I have sitting in here whose

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Speaker 1: life has gone off track, has turned their life around

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Speaker 1: because of a good role model, or you say, where

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Speaker 1: it go wrong, they had no one steering them in

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Speaker 1: the direction I think the figures are And again don't

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Speaker 1: quote me on it might have even come out in

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Speaker 1: one of these speeches at Rainbow Lodge. To keep an

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Speaker 1: adult person in custody over twelve months is one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand, juvenile is two hundred and fifty thousand.

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Speaker 1: That's a shitload of money that could set up some

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Speaker 1: really good programs. People who have got the lived experience,

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Speaker 1: people who have gone in the dark side or done

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Speaker 1: the bad things and come out and having these kids

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Speaker 1: look up to them and tell them this is not

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Speaker 1: the goal. You can get the trade. You can be

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Speaker 1: part of society and self esteem. Self esteem is what

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Speaker 1: they see with a lot of kids that go off track.

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Speaker 1: They haven't got a good self esteem because of the

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Speaker 1: environment they've grown up, even education. How many times and

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Speaker 1: you would have seen it in the cops when you've

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Speaker 1: got some poor blake you're charging with an the fence

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Speaker 1: and he's too embarrassed because he can't read all right,

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Speaker 1: yeah and yeah, things like that, and so they lash out.

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Speaker 1: They lash out at school because they're having trouble reading

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Speaker 1: and writing, so they deflect from it by getting into

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Speaker 1: trouble and send out of the class.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, exactly right. Literacy is amazing. You wouldn't think

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five or twenty twenty four to twenty

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Speaker 2: five that would actually be an issue at all. But

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Speaker 2: it is surprising just talking about people going off track.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that if you took that bloke who was

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Speaker 2: at Rainbow Lodge who gave that talk, he would be

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Speaker 2: a fantastic role model because of his life he is outstanding.

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Speaker 2: So he obviously speed off the track and did whatever

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Speaker 2: he did and now he's a role model. So if

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Speaker 2: a person, a child is raised in an environment of

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Speaker 2: violence as domestic violence, and even if they come out

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Speaker 2: of that, if they're being exposed to it long enough

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Speaker 2: as a child and they're brought out of it, the

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Speaker 2: slightest stress or trigger in their life after that event

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Speaker 2: could easily spear them off the rails into a life

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Speaker 2: of crime or drugs and alcohol and violence. So when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about the formative years of children, it is

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Speaker 2: really so important that even if they are removed from

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Speaker 2: that environment, the damage is saying because once you've seen

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Speaker 2: domestic violence or violence, you can't undo it. You can't

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Speaker 2: undo it. And those poor kids who see it, who

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Speaker 2: are terrified by it, it stays with them for the

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Speaker 2: rest of their life.

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Speaker 1: Got to break the cycle and the things that we

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Speaker 1: talk about. It's about getting smart on crime, not tough

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Speaker 1: on crime. And you know, when you speak to victims

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Speaker 1: and victims that have been through the ring and I've

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Speaker 1: lost loved ones, if you reduce crime, you reduce victims.

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Speaker 1: So that pub talk, Oh you're gone soft. You going

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Speaker 1: soft non crime. If you reduce crime, you reduce victims.

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Speaker 1: That's a smart way of approaching it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only that, like crimes coming down in

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Speaker 2: society for decades, and of course of the media cycle.

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Speaker 2: You know, the media pick up on it. And I

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Speaker 2: asked the studness in class, is crime going up or down?

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Speaker 2: And they always say crimes going up? But in actual

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Speaker 2: fact it's coming down. Even though it's coming down, it's

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Speaker 2: still not acceptable. But you know the Yeah, the impact

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Speaker 2: and the cycle of violence and how kids are speared

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Speaker 2: into it. But it is, you know, you and I

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Speaker 2: and many people you know, we hear the rhetoric. And

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Speaker 2: I used to believe it tough on crime.

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Speaker 1: I used to believe I know what you're saying. So

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Speaker 1: I'm just not owning up to it. But I know

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Speaker 1: how ignorant you were early in your police career. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's stop them away the key.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like having decriminalization of cannabis. So I was at

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Speaker 2: the drug Summit. I am surprisingly for it to a point.

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Speaker 2: I mean a massive fan of pill testing. I think

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Speaker 2: that it should be a health issue. I'm not saying that.

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Speaker 2: For example, someone at a music festival If they've got

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Speaker 2: one tablet for that'say, okay, But if they've got five

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Speaker 2: or ten, obviously that's going to be a supply issue.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not certainly not saying that, you know, drugs

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Speaker 2: should be allowed to come into the country freely. No way,

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Speaker 2: It's absolutely no way. But I think that the reality

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Speaker 2: is that there will be a portion those we know

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Speaker 2: people that always use drugs, and if that can be

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Speaker 2: managed from a health perspective, that's great. I actually more

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Speaker 2: worry about the mental health impact of cannabis for schizophrenia

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Speaker 2: than I actually do about any other crime aspect of it.

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Speaker 2: And the notion that you know, cannabis leads to harder

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Speaker 2: crime that leads that doorway open. It's just it's an

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Speaker 2: urban myth. It doesn't. It just doesn't. It doesn't do that.

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Speaker 1: But you're raising the issue of the pill testing, and

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Speaker 1: I know, if any teenagers I know are going to

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Speaker 1: a concert, I'd prefer to have that than not have

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Speaker 1: that because of the tragedies that can happen. Okay, we've

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Speaker 1: talked about crime, let's talk about policing. Contemporary policing. Why

404
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Speaker 1: not just in New South Wales. I think it's across

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Speaker 1: the country, and I think it's overseas as well. We're

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Speaker 1: having trouble attracting people to policing. What what do you

407
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Speaker 1: think that's about. What's your sense of that.

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Speaker 2: I think, first of all, I just think it's part

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Speaker 2: of it is just the nature of the the what's

410
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Speaker 2: the word I'm looking for, the temporary nature of employment

411
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Speaker 2: now that people go from job to job to job

412
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Speaker 2: to job.

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Speaker 1: Just before policing was a vocation.

414
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Speaker 2: Yes, it was a vocation, it was a career. I

415
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Speaker 2: also think that because of the fear of crime, so

416
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Speaker 2: people fear crime more than the reality of crime. It's

417
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Speaker 2: because people fee crime. People would never walk down a

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Speaker 2: dark alley, but in actual fact, probably nothing will ever

419
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Speaker 2: happen to you.

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Speaker 1: So the fear of crime is worse than the reality

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Speaker 1: of crime.

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Speaker 2: So when you talk to parents, and when I talk

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Speaker 2: to students, and I talk to you thousands over the years, Ah,

424
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Speaker 2: the policing is dangerous. But I say, policing is not

425
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Speaker 2: that dangerous. It's it is, but you don't get thrown

426
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Speaker 2: in at the deep end. You know, you're trained, you're

427
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Speaker 2: not left on your own devices. So that notion that

428
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Speaker 2: crime is out of control, I don't think really attracts

429
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Speaker 2: individuals to the to the organization. I also think that

430
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Speaker 2: adverse publicity doesn't really really help. One can go into

431
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Speaker 2: whether there's good or bad leadership in a police organization.

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Speaker 1: One could vent.

433
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: Bloody. One could go into whether it's good or bad

434
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: leadership in the organization which in there and reflects upon

435
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: people's attitudes whether they want to go in. I also

436
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: think that emerging economies, you know, like the gig economy,

437
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: it is not emerging, it's already here and renewables. But

438
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: I just think that I don't I think the police

439
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: or take that thing at Kuma just tragic, that just

440
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: beyond comprehension. That does not do anything to attract people

441
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: to the police.

442
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: Well, that one event, and we're talking about one event,

443
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: that's right, the elderly lady that was a taste and

444
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: die as a result. And I think it's a matter

445
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: that's just come before the court and there was a verdict.

446
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: So we won't go into the exactly what happened because

447
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: I don't think the sentencings occurred at this stage. But

448
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: I look at incidents, and you've looked at a lot

449
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: of critical incidence. I oversaw a lot of critical incidents,

450
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: and I think there needs to be better training for police. Yeah.

451
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: I won't break it down because it's quite frightening when

452
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: you talk about how often you get to use your

453
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: weapon and training and all that. But surely with the

454
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: type of job that we're doing, or we were are

455
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: doing as police officers, more money should be put in

456
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: the training you want. You want quality over quantity.

457
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I was talking to Darren Bennett, yeah

458
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: the other a few weeks ago actually, and he was saying,

459
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 2: you know, it's the people coming through the door. If

460
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: you get the right people coming through the door, then

461
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: the organizational issues aren't as as as big. Now, that's

462
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: that's an obvious statement to make. But the point you

463
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: made earlier about people getting accepted and then those being rejected,

464
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: and when there's a shortage then bringing those other people

465
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: back in, it doesn't that's not a consistent benchmark. And

466
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: whilst it might in the short term politically seem palatable

467
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: for the electorate and for the commissioner or whoever it is,

468
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 2: down the track, when the politicians and the commissioner go,

469
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 2: then the organizations left with this legacy of them trying

470
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: to mold bad individual not bad individual less suitable individuals

471
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: into something that the organization really does want.

472
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: So and like even in the probo, we have that

473
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: probationary period, and you know, and I know there's people

474
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: there that should not be police officers. You can you

475
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: can tell it a mile away. Why do they call

476
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: a probationary period and they get through?

477
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And I

478
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: think this comes also down to the industry relations laws,

479
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: and the onus is upon the organization to prove that

480
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: Vince Hurley was incompetent and Vin Turley was very incompetent.

481
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: That's why you were That's why you were flowing thrown

482
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: off the roof, and then you didn't have to go

483
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: through in dustrial relationship. Sorry, it's tragic and I shouldn't

484
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: be laughing at it. Did you scream on the way down?

485
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: Actually? To be honest, I was on the ground and

486
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: I just am I allowed to swear. It's on the

487
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: ground on it and I fractured my left leg and

488
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: my skull and I dissipated my shoulder and I'm lying

489
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: on the ground and I'm thinking, oh, this is fucked,

490
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: this is fucked, this is not this is fun. I'm

491
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: getting to old to chase pea half my age. But yeah,

492
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: so I was not in a good place. But anyway,

493
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: we're not laughing at you.

494
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: We're laughing at We're full support and we're just trying

495
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: to say, wow, we can't get police and you are discussing,

496
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: well when I got praying off the roof. Look, I

497
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: love it as a career. I know you enjoyed your

498
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: time there. I enjoyed that. It saddens me that they're

499
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: struggling to get resources. Pay increase. Yeah, but there's a

500
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: lot of areas that need money going into it. What

501
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: worries me that will attract people just for the money.

502
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: And I like to work with people. When I was

503
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: in the cops, I like to work with people that

504
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: weren't focused on promotion, weren't focused on how much over

505
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: time I can get. We're focused on they were passionate

506
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: about their job. That's the only thing I worry about.

507
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: With this huge pay increase that New South Wales Police

508
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: have got, You're going to have people that stay in

509
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: there that's not really interested in policing. They're just taking

510
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: the dollar or encouraging people to go there that are

511
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: not really interested in policing.

512
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, you're right, You're right. I was staggered with

513
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: the pay increase. I couldn't believe. I thought I misheard

514
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: it when I first read. I did, but I would

515
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: have walked in on my crutch as I said, no, no,

516
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: but I couldn't believe it, Like that's a phenomenal increase.

517
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that. I mean we were poorly paid,

518
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: you know, in the eighties, but you never joined, as

519
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: you rightly so for that particular reason. But you know

520
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: I would. I would, Yeah, probably an unsurprising comment. I

521
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: would rather see that money going to drug and alcohol

522
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 2: counseling or mental health, automestic violence, because if you can

523
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: prevent that, as we know, then be less police. I went,

524
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: as I said in the eighties, I went with a

525
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: bloke name of Chris Clark Shadow and we're working at

526
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: Mount to twenty domestics in one night. Now, admittedly it

527
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 2: was in the nineteen eighties and you just churned through them,

528
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 2: but that you know that that massive increase in wage.

529
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: I think you know, as we said earlier, if that

530
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: could be put into diversionary programs or something like that,

531
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: it would have to you wouldn't see an immediate thing.

532
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: But if we're talking about generational change or even a decade,

533
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: it would have to be more beneficial because people will

534
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: coming to the organization, as you say, they'll joint X

535
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: amount of time and then leave. But if that money

536
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: was put into drug and rehab and you get better

537
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: role models, then it would have a better impact on society.

538
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: I like to see police people want to do it

539
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: because they're inspired by working with those people. You would

540
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: have had people you looked up to. I looked up

541
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: to people, and I'm just thinking, I want to try

542
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: to emulate what they've achieved in their career and the

543
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: type of people they are. I think that's so important

544
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: that in policing, and I just yeah, I've been away

545
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: from it a long time too, so I'm mainly looking

546
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: from the outside. But it just saddens me that people

547
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: aren't putting their hands up because I still reckon it's

548
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: the world's greatest job. That's in saying many different things

549
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: and the rewards that you can get from it, and

550
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: it's a difficult job now, Like I understand it's difficult

551
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: now because the exposure and the criticism if someone does

552
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: something wrong, they're exposed publicly because we make mistakes and

553
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: you just you learn from your mistake and move on. Yeah,

554
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: you mentioned the leadership. I don't like the we've got

555
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: the commissioner now, Karen where I just get the sense

556
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: that she's not being supported by her own organization and

557
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: that that troubles me because I know the internal politics

558
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: in the in the cops, how they climb over each other,

559
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: and that saddens me because really, when you're out of

560
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the cops, you realize the public don't give who is

561
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: no superintendent or who is this or who is that?

562
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: They don't care. You think within the cops, everyone yes,

563
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: who's going to be the next commissioner? People don't care,

564
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: but they just want the police to do their job.

565
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: On that, I often get asked about what makes a

566
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: good police force, And the way I look at it,

567
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: look at the police your public servantcy. You're there to

568
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: serve the public. So when you talk satisfaction in regards

569
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: to police, are they delivering what the community they're serving expects?

570
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: Is that a good way of assessing that it is?

571
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 2: It is? And I also think that that's an interesting

572
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: point because so when we talk about confidence in policing,

573
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: and how do you make sure that people are satisfied.

574
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: First of all, when we're talking about, say, closing the

575
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: gap every time, and I never thought of this at

576
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: the time, it's easy to say now in hindsight, whatever

577
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: you do with the First Nations people or someone from

578
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: culturally diverse background, every time you deal with them and

579
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: give them tend their needs, you're giving them what they

580
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: want the expectation. That is part of closing the gap.

581
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: So everyone has a responsibility to do that. But I

582
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: also think that there will never be unfortunately enough people

583
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: of First Nations or culturally diverse background in the police

584
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: because it just doesn't attract individuals generally. And then even

585
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 2: those minority groups are never going to be wrecking what

586
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: I'm looking for. I'm not going to be represented because

587
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: they just don't attract those individuals for whatever reason. So

588
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: from the very beginning, I think there's always going to

589
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: be a gap between what people expect from culturally diverse

590
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: background or from First Nations and what the organization can deliver.

591
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: But I also think that you're right, it's just you know,

592
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: what would it's not even giving a level of service,

593
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 2: it's just you know, informing someone or say, well, if

594
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: that person was my mum, what would she expect?

595
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so simple, so simple way. I well,

596
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: you would have heard me when I'm talking to detectives

597
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: training detectives that treat the victims like you'd want your

598
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: family to be treated. It's a simple concept.

599
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: It is it is, yeah, exactly right. But I can

600
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: also understand, and I'm not making excuses. I can also

601
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: understand that you know when you went to a domestic

602
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: and I would be ashamed now to think how many

603
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: times you know, and as a generation, how I didn't

604
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: meet the expectations of people. But even now, I think

605
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: sometimes people overlook the fact that when a police officer

606
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: goes and speaks to some a victim, they don't care

607
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: if that police officer and they don't know it's just

608
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: come from a cot death or a fatal motivaticle accident.

609
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: So I'm speaking to you as a victim, and all

610
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: you're worried about, and understandably so, is that Vince Earley

611
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: gives you meets your needs. But sometimes expectations of what

612
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: the police can do all hie and that the police

613
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: can't meet it, or your expectations are not realistic. And

614
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: you don't know that because you've never had anything to

615
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 2: do with the police before. And Vincehurley comes to you

616
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: at two o'clock in the morning and I'm fatigued because

617
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: I've been out for ten hours driving around and then

618
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 2: you go, well, he didn't seem very interested. So I

619
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: can understand from that perspective. And that's not an excuse,

620
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: it's just human nature. But you're right that if you

621
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: police were just more compassionate, and probably some of them aren't.

622
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: But it's going back to the very first question of it.

623
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: I think the very beginning, you know, what is the expectation,

624
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: what is the role of the police in society? And

625
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: I said, you know, it's to be a referee, but

626
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: it's to have a degree of compassion at the same time.

627
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: But you know, I think that you know, when I

628
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: joined and when you joined, it was a different mindset

629
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: to what it is now.

630
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely definitely changed, but I think the core

631
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: values need to stay stay with it because otherwise it

632
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: becomes problematic. And because as you identified that people have

633
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: assured the career they go in five years of police,

634
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: they walk around, go to the next next thing. You

635
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: want to attract the people that are really passionate about

636
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: their job, and it doesn't matter which it could be

637
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: all I don't want to encourage them too much, but

638
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: they do do an important rob job. Passionate highway patrol officers.

639
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: But you've met them and they're as passionate as you

640
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: and I were as detectives doing what they do.

641
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: You need that, Yeah, And I think actually that's a

642
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: good point. When you think about the people that have

643
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: a contact with the police. There's only for four groups offenders, victims, witnesses,

644
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 2: and those pulled over by the highway patrol, and they

645
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: are the largest percentage. So the straight away, the stereotypical

646
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: or the mindset, well I got pulled over by the

647
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: highway patrol. They're representative of the rest of the police.

648
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 2: I mean, people will always if I want to join

649
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: the police, they will want to join the police. But

650
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: generally speaking, everyone's concept of what the police are is,

651
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: you know, is amplified by the highway patrol or by

652
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: the media.

653
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: That's that's their exposure. Speaking of media, the role of

654
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: media in policing, what's your take on that look looking

655
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: from an outside this point of view, Now, yeah, I

656
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: think it's.

657
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: Good and bad. I can only I can honestly tell

658
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: you Gary, if social media was around when I was

659
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: in the police, I would have been sacked. I would

660
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: have been absolutely sacked. But we're looking at it retrospectively

661
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: now and people coming into the organization would be more

662
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: tact sevy tech sevy and would be aware of, you know,

663
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: the media around about around policing.

664
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: What was questioned again about media and policing and the

665
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 1: relationship between the media and the police and the changing

666
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: landscape with social media.

667
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 2: So I think that when I've given interviews on TV

668
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 2: or whatever, they always say to me before we start,

669
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: or we wants a ten second grab, and that's what

670
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 2: they concentrate on. And they'll take words that Vince Early

671
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: says either out of context and they'll use that or

672
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: they'll keep it as is.

673
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: So the media, when you were telling the politicians they

674
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: are absolute jokes. That was taken out of context.

675
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 2: Well, maybe not that way. So I'm so proud to

676
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: say that I've interrupted, but that that's a good example

677
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: because that whole clip was compressed. I said more than that,

678
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: and I went on to actually talk more about those

679
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: particular issues, but that was compressed for social media. That's

680
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: a grab, that's yeah, and that's a grab that they want. Yeah,

681
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 2: it's been of benefit for a whole host of NGOs.

682
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: But I also think that the media and everyone says this,

683
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: and it's true, they have a responsibility to portray both sides.

684
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: Because one of the questions I asked in an assignment

685
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: is that is it true something along the lines off

686
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: to the students, is it true that the media portrayed

687
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: police in a good light or bad light? And is

688
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: it necessary to do that? And they really come up

689
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: with interesting answers, because yes, police I have to be

690
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: held accountable for what they do. Social media is fantastic that,

691
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: but it's also can be a prejudicial to the police.

692
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: It can also be prejudicial against the police as well.

693
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: So social media is just unwieldy beast. And I'm not

694
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: on social media at all for that reason because it

695
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 2: just doesn't never raise.

696
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: But it is a changing landscape and the media and

697
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: the police had a very close relationship. When we're in

698
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: police and the media, we're getting the information leaked to them,

699
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: and that it was I had an issue and I

700
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: still have an issue that quite often it's a positive

701
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: news story for the police. There's certain journalists that would

702
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: beholding to the police, giving them leaks of information, and

703
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: it frustrates me stories that I know, investigations. I know

704
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: the whim toural matter has played out so devastatingly in

705
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: the public for so many different people, and it's been misinformation.

706
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: And I think there's a responsibility on both sides. But

707
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: I think the police need to be accountable for their actions.

708
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: If there's criticism, well you've got to copy it. You

709
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: get the compliments if you do something good. If you

710
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: do something bad, you got to cop it. But I

711
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: see the police just so risk adverse or getting criticized.

712
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: Whereas and I reference Boarable. You know, the Commission of

713
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: SCIPPIONI came up there and to the Bearable community. I've

714
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: been trying for ten years to get a commission to

715
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: come up there, and he came up there and he said,

716
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: sorry to the community, we could have done better. That's

717
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: acknowledging it. And that helped the community at that time.

718
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: So that meant so much to them. Little things like that.

719
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know why the police don't put their

720
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: hands up sometimes and just you know, okay, we could

721
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: have done that better. Then you can move on from it.

722
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not only that, the public, no, the public no,

723
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: you know, just like you know, it's just like the

724
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: politicians get asked a question and they give an answer,

725
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: and they think that the answer might be smart or

726
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: they don't address the question, but the rest of the

727
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: world knows what the answer is. It's just like, you know,

728
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 2: what's that saying that the emperor wears no clothes or something?

729
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: Yeah?

730
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know what is wrong? We've sort of

731
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: putting up your hand and say, look, I'm sorry, we

732
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: could have done better, but you're right. They are so

733
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: risk adverse that it becomes almost boring and predictable. And

734
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: even that notion of being risk averse doesn't attract people

735
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: to the organization because it makes it the organization look

736
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: so bland. What is wrong with getting up and say well,

737
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, we got it wrong, because the punter at

738
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: home knows that it's wrong, and they can say, I

739
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: look at the politician or the police officer and or

740
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: whoever it is, the commissioner and say, well, why don't

741
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: you just say we all.

742
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: Know it's what's wrong with it. I know we could

743
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: manage it better, and I think they better get their

744
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: act in order, because like with podcasts and all that,

745
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: Teachers Pet and other podcasts and even the one that's

746
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: running at the moment on William Tyrell Witness William Tyrell,

747
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: it's not just towing the police line and making people

748
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: calling the question what's gone on with an investigation? Gone

749
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: are the days where And I'm not just talking New

750
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: South far as police, I'm talking across the board. Law

751
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: enforcement agencies can control the media because it's gone. It

752
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: used to be that way, but it's not no longer

753
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: that way.

754
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: And you know, and just an interesting point because the

755
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 2: media policy or we used to know, you can only

756
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: comment on facts and speeding and things like that. Even now,

757
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 2: when you know, the police get up and they talk

758
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: about a particular issue, it is very factual. But there

759
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: is no like humanity or there's.

760
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: No no personality. And I think when we look at

761
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: how are you attracting police when everyone's just standing up

762
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: and talking like a dummy, that sounds like a really

763
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: good job. Inquiries are continuing, we expect an early arrest,

764
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: like bring some life to it. Yeah, yeah, exactly right, mate. Yeah,

765
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: maybe maybe that that attracts people, but yeah, I just

766
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: so saddened by the fact that we're not getting people

767
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: because the more people wandding it into the police, the

768
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: higher the bar can be. And then one thing for

769
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: credit to New South Wales Police, but it was about

770
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: time and you know, having worked down the academy, the

771
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: ludicrous situation where you had to pay to go to

772
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: the academy and now at least the intake they're getting paid,

773
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: that's going to attract a better group of people.

774
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: You're right, and in fact an actual your spot on

775
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: as well. I was going to make earlier and I

776
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: forgot to mention it. You're right. Why would someone who

777
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: wants to do a job go and have to pay

778
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: hex fees to join an organization?

779
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: It just it did not make sense.

780
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: A tradee doesn't pay.

781
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: I've had so many good people approach me and say

782
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: I was going to join the police, but I couldn't

783
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: afford because I've got young children that couldn't afford to

784
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 1: pay the time down the academy, good people that you know,

785
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: would have made excellent police officers, and we've lost them.

786
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 2: Fear that that once they get to there, they fill

787
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 2: their vacancies. Yeah, I think it will revert back. That's

788
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: I know that's my that's I have no idea.

789
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: We'll get you back on my catch killers and you

790
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: can have one of your rants and raves in your

791
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: twenty seven b and YouTube views because you've lost your

792
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: shop modern policy and you mentioned AI. I look at AI.

793
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: That will be a tool in investigation, like because you know,

794
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: I imagine set it up right, there's breaking entwers, you're

795
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: looking at methodology. You scan it within thirty seconds, it's

796
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: come back. Okay, there's a similar break and enter. It's

797
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: what thoughts on AI?

798
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: Love it? Love it? A big early adopter of it.

799
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: Easier when you're at a UNI student.

800
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: Not that they would use AI no, of course, not

801
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: act to use it.

802
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: Well that I've wondered about that. But you've got to

803
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: let them have axit. That's a resource like when we

804
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: used to go to the library and borough a book.

805
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's a resource that's available. So it's got

806
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: to be a leader in there. Imagine having people go

807
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: through UNI and not know how to use it AI.

808
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: Oh that's right, yeah, I mean I'll get backtrack in

809
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: a minute. But I've got friends set on State and

810
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: Commonwealth in interview panels for government jobs and one of

811
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: the questions that many government like common work government jobs

812
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: will ask if they get to an interview is what

813
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: is your AI literacy skills?

814
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,479
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, so that's a question.

815
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah so And all the big like KPMG and Pross,

816
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: water House Coopers and Ey they already they asked those

817
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 2: questions about the students. What do you know about AI?

818
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 2: And you know, what's your literacy skill? Can you tell

819
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: between good and bad? But I think that it has

820
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: benefits obviously, and it has disadvantages. The thing with AI

821
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: is that it is because it's Microsoft. For example, open

822
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: ais was initially owned by Elon Musk and he sold it,

823
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: not sold it, but he works with Microsoft. That's why

824
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: it's on our computers and Microsoft it's US based. So

825
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: all the information is from the Northern Hemisphere. So if

826
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: we type in something like some research on suicide by

827
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: cop in Australia and it came back with information which

828
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: was incorrect about Australia because it's all the Northern Hemisphere based.

829
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 2: So that's the first thing that people have to understand

830
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 2: is when they use it. Primarily it comes from scraping

831
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: the web of all the Northern hemisphe few information, so

832
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: that's the first. That's the first danger or pitfall of it.

833
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: The second thing with AI, and it concerns me. There

834
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 2: was a case in Ohio might have been last year,

835
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: year before or anyway in the States where there was

836
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 2: a police used AI to identify an offender. So they

837
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: visually identified him, but they didn't know his name. Then

838
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: they used AI and they put the name and the

839
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: name was correct, and went to court and the matter.

840
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: He was convicted for purchasing a handguard I think it was,

841
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: and then it was actually thrown out later on it

842
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 2: was challenged on the basis of AI that AI was

843
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 2: used to identify the offender.

844
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 1: So they they had the face. Did you say all

845
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: that they had the face.

846
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 2: They had the face, and they didn't know his name, okay,

847
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: So they used AI to identify who he was and

848
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: they AI identified him correctly as Gary Jubilan. So then

849
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 2: they went around and arrested him. They didn't arrest him initially.

850
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: It's a long, long judgment, and then they went around

851
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: arrested Gary or this this handgun purchase. Gary pleaded guilty,

852
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 2: went to court, and I can't remember what happened to

853
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: him anyway, After you pleaded guilty. The defense Sorry, yeah,

854
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: the defense appealed that decision based on AI, and he

855
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 2: was Actually the conviction was quashed. The reason was quashed

856
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: is that when you use AI, there's a thing called

857
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: the black box, a notion or a concept that is

858
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 2: used that when you type something into AI, you don't

859
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: know how that answer is arrived at. So because you

860
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 2: do not apply any critical analysis to that answer, you're

861
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: accepting that answer to be one hundred percent correct based

862
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: on what and you.

863
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: So you're breaking that down in simplistic terms, you've got

864
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: no reasonable suspicions exactly right.

865
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no independent critical thought or analysis or

866
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 2: independent identification of that individual, and it is set a

867
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 2: precedent in the US.

868
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: Okay, that's that's interesting. It's going to be interesting times

869
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: on how that how that plays out. I think with AI,

870
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: we're fortunate in that where we've got to at this

871
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: point in time, we've learnt our skills. So if we

872
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: use AI, we can sort of assess it pretty quickly

873
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: because we know what I asked AI to do. A

874
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: fact sheet on the murder. I could scam through and go, no,

875
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: that's not what's needed in there. People who maybe don't

876
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: develop those skills because AI is so readily, readily available.

877
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: But I think it will be fascinating. Like technology in

878
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 1: policing too. It's change. I think it's a harder gig

879
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: being a crook these days and it was back back

880
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: in our day because of all the advantages we've got.

881
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: You did a paper or you did a talk on drones. Yeah, well,

882
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: and that interest man, I'll.

883
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: Just go back to AI for sake. So when I

884
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 2: gave a talk recently about AI and policing, someone in

885
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: the audience said, well, you know, it's got to be

886
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: good for identification of a weapon, for example, or clothing

887
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: or a scar or a tattoo, And I said, yes,

888
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: it has. It's placed there. But I also see it

889
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: as a bit of a danger because you don't want

890
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 2: the weapon to be so similar. You don't want it

891
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: to mirror the weapon, because if you identify the incorrect weapon,

892
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: for example, the matter could be tossed out. So AI

893
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: can be that accurately cloned, is that it narrows the

894
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 2: ability of the individual to identify it, like a lineup

895
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: if everyone is too similar looking. Yes, it has to

896
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: be similar, and you have to be able to justify

897
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 2: the selection of the individual. But I think I worry

898
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: about AI cloning things that are so identical that it's

899
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,399
Speaker 2: hard to say to it. It's hard. But also from

900
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: the fact that if you get into the witness box,

901
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 2: I say, Vince Hurley, now explain to us about AI.

902
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: How did your ride at that decision? What did a

903
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: I do? Fuck?

904
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how I am And you will be

905
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: exploited that way, won't.

906
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

907
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: Defense barrass is going to jump straight in on that.

908
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: So why would you introduce AI into a brief where

909
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 2: you don't know much about it yourself, and but you

910
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: know that it's going to cause controversy. So I think, yes, absolutely.

911
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: Will it will evolve. But I remember when we're looking

912
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: for a suspect. We've got a suspect on a case,

913
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: and I go through the cops records and find out

914
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: what we've got to have someone look for that, and

915
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: then some young smart ass on the strike forces go, oh,

916
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: this is where he lives. That's a picture of his

917
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: house because they're on social media, and yeah, that how

918
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: did this happen? But I would imagine it'll evolved like that.

919
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: It will become it will become a time, it's something

920
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: and I like to think law enforcement we stay ahead

921
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 1: of the game if we can, so hopefully it plays

922
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: out plays out that way. Winding back to the drive drones, Yeah, what.

923
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 2: Look, I think drones are going to be as common,

924
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: if not already common, as the car on the road.

925
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: The thing that with drones is that now take carry

926
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: wheland matters. That's finished, isn't it that? Yeah, that's well

927
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: and done and dusted. So if memory serves me correctly

928
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: at some stage, or aerial surveillance of him, Now, there

929
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: was a person in a helicopter, in a poly helicopter

930
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: which was out of view of things, and they surveiled

931
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 2: and surveilance helicopter says, you know, it's quite common, and

932
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 2: he had the visual image of that individual. The thing

933
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 2: with drones is that it has a visual image of

934
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: that individual. And I could be sitting at the aviation

935
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: command at Bankstown managing it. But drones have a limited

936
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 2: life span and they're not They are subject to bird strike,

937
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: just like planes aren't. But also the wind can affect

938
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: their their clarity on the particular target. Now just like Pollie,

939
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 2: they can't the target can't necessarily see the drone, but

940
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: it saves immense amount of manpower, and for crime scene

941
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: as you would well know, but also for surveillance of individuals,

942
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: for dropping off resources or something to an individual. The

943
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 2: biggest thing I think the police are going to face

944
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 2: is the CASSAR regulations, so they have to comply with

945
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: the Civil Aviation Authority regulations about flying drones. And given

946
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: the churn of police in the organization, everyone has to

947
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: be well not everybody, but they have to be continually

948
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: trained as a drone pilot to keep pace with that.

949
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 2: So they use it. As you know on my brother's

950
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: a surf Life Save up in Queensland, they have an

951
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 2: individual who does that for sharks and the same thing

952
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: can be applied to that. But it can certainly save

953
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: a lot of staff and manpower with the use of drones.

954
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: My only concern would be that if something happened to it,

955
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 2: even though it's been back, if something happened to the drone,

956
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: because it worth about a million dollars each once new

957
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 2: so far as police have, if it was damaged or compromised,

958
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: then you know the possible possible kind of nuity of

959
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 2: evidence possible, yeah, possible conomuity of evidence.

960
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: I was just interested in that because just before the

961
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: end of my career on a and I won't mention

962
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: the investigation with his high profile and looking for someone

963
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: walking through the bush and seeing where they went, and

964
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: we didn't have the capabilities to track this person. And

965
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: I made I said, well, we've got those drones that

966
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: get up there and look at crime scenes and all that.

967
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: And I've done some work with media where they've got

968
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: drones hovering over your head and we use that, use

969
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: that drone, And I just thought that it just opened

970
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: a whole new way of doing things police wise. Exciting

971
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: time for policing. But we're not in it anymore. No,

972
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: you got off the roof and I got frown under

973
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: the bus a good way. Who would have thought our

974
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: career has ended that way when lecturing detectives. But you

975
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: know what I find and I've loved the chat, and

976
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:12,959
Speaker 1: I reckon, I'm going to get you back on because

977
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: next time you snap, I'm going to get you straight

978
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: back on the next day and find out what what

979
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: set him off this time. But I like the fact

980
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: that the way you look at crime and look at

981
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: crime not just black and white good guys, bad guys.

982
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: You're looking at it and making a difference educating people

983
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: on it and the fact that you enjoyed your time

984
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 1: in policing, because I really like sitting down with someone

985
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: that it didn't end the way we thought it. We're

986
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: even twisted it, but not better and twisted and can

987
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: enjoy it. And you know, I can ask you the

988
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: obvious question, would you recommend joining the police?

989
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 2: Look, I loved it. Yeah I do. And even even

990
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: as students at UNI say, I tell them it's a

991
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: fantastic job.

992
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: It is.

993
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 2: It's genuinely a great job. It's you see the best

994
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: of humanity and you see the worst of humanity. Every

995
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 2: day is different. I would, yeah, I would. Any of

996
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 2: my children, I would recommend it. And when I speak

997
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 2: at open days to you know, eight hundred parents, invariably

998
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: I'll get some parents who put up their hand and say,

999
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 2: would you recommend, And I say, yeah, I said absolutely,

1000
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 2: I would recommend it to my children. I'd recommend to anyone.

1001
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 2: And it is it's a great job.

1002
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to just cut that and that's going

1003
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: to be a neicement for policing. Policing in this country. Vince,

1004
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on. And I'm not joking.

1005
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: We will get you back on because I'm sure you're

1006
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: going to stuff up somewhere and go off on a tangent.

1007
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: But the work that you do is very impressive and

1008
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: you're always good fun. When our paths crossed, it.

1009
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: Mate, I just want to say thanks so much for

1010
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 2: the opportunity. It's been fantastic and you know, yeah, look,

1011
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: it's been a wonderful journey for both of us. And

1012
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 2: you know, back in the mid nineteen nineties, who would

1013
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: have ever thought we would have ended up here. But yeah,

1014
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: it's just been great and thanks for an opportunity. It's

1015
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: been absolutely fantastic. Cheers, thanks, mate.

1016
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: Vince always bore the smile to my face, and I

1017
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: like his opinions on all things that law and order.

1018
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: He's got those streets smarts, he's got a sense of humor,

1019
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: he cares, he's passionate, and he's also a bit of

1020
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: an academic. So it was really good sitting down having

1021
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: a chat with doctor Vince Hurley. I think he's someone

1022
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: I might get back on here because I'm sure he's

1023
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: got some other opinions about all things law and order.