Speaker 1: Good a team. Welcome to another installment the View Project.
Speaker 1: To taps his echo chamber, It's Melissa, Melissa, Hello, how
Speaker 1: are you? Yeah good? I feel like I've done this
Speaker 1: very recently. Why would that deja vou vibe be happening?
Speaker 1: Do you think? Because your microphone was doing something really
Speaker 1: strange and so we thought we might need to redo
Speaker 1: the intro quickly. So it makes sense that is true.
Speaker 1: Sorry for interrupting there as I do so we've already done.
Speaker 1: The interview with Farmer Dave. He was bloody amazing. I
Speaker 1: have a big man crush on him, and I do
Speaker 1: have that capacity as we all know. But he is
Speaker 1: so fucking great. I thought he'd be really good, but
Speaker 1: it starts off good and it gets better and better.
Speaker 1: I love this episode he's doing, like his backstory, his
Speaker 1: story with his story growing up on farms. I don't
Speaker 1: want to ruin it, but there are so many good
Speaker 1: things in here. The work that he's done with animals,
Speaker 1: he's love for animals, and now the incredible work that
Speaker 1: he's doing with kids between twelve and seventeen who are
Speaker 1: really struggling, very very hands on at the cold face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: beautiful conversation beautiful dude doing awesome work. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: you will be inspired by him. Melissa, can I can
Speaker 1: I go now?
Speaker 2: Am I? A? We?
Speaker 1: A we clear? We will start the show now, all right,
Speaker 1: let's start the show. Farmer Dave, Melissa and well, what's
Speaker 1: his actual name, Dave Graham? I think, okay, farmer Dave. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to start. I'm thinking, I'm
Speaker 1: looking at all your stuff. I'm like, that's quite the
Speaker 1: fucking bio. It's not your typical LinkedIn bio. I'll give
Speaker 1: you that. Yeah, why don't you give us your bio?
Speaker 1: Why don't you let me get in the jacuzzi? And
Speaker 1: why don't you give us whatever you want wherever you
Speaker 1: want to go, give us the David Graham slash Farmer
Speaker 1: Dave bio that you reckon the world might be interested,
Speaker 1: I mean, that'd be interested in all of it. But
Speaker 1: just where.
Speaker 2: I go, where I'm at right now is helping kids
Speaker 2: get back on track. And you know, sometimes it's dealing
Speaker 2: with five kids in a day, sometimes dealing with twenty
Speaker 2: kids in a day, and whatever they need, I'm there
Speaker 2: for them. And I think my bios kind of got
Speaker 2: me in that stead. I grew up, like so many
Speaker 2: Australians of the older generations, on a station about forteen
Speaker 2: hours northwest of Sydney, about six hours west of Brisbane,
Speaker 2: near near a town called Gundawindy. So not your typical childhood,
Speaker 2: but the most splendid childhood of just no town for
Speaker 2: one hundred kilometers and just growing up with your dogs,
Speaker 2: your horses, and that was my job, is just looking
Speaker 2: after all of them for a fairly large cattle and
Speaker 2: cropping station about one hundred thousand acres, And was youngest
Speaker 2: of eleven kids, so I was kind of a forgotten
Speaker 2: one because by the time you get to eleven, you
Speaker 2: kind of over it when it comes to parenting. So
Speaker 2: my parents were quite elderly and kind of over it
Speaker 2: and tired.
Speaker 1: Quite elderly and tired by the time they got to
Speaker 1: you exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Dad, every time he bought another farm, he'd
Speaker 2: have another kid to make sure that he's got slave
Speaker 2: labor in the future to run it. So yeah, it
Speaker 2: was an awesome childhood. And I was so fortunate to
Speaker 2: be able to learn from your old stockmen and these
Speaker 2: guys that have been connected to the land for their
Speaker 2: whole lives and their whole existence and really built me
Speaker 2: ready for a really well rounded education in the bush,
Speaker 2: and then went off to boarding school, like you all
Speaker 2: have to do, and that was a real sledge hammer
Speaker 2: to the face because my first boarding school was co ed.
Speaker 2: But then I went to another one which was an
Speaker 2: international school and which was fantas but didn't quite have
Speaker 2: the education that my dad wanted. He wanted a military
Speaker 2: type education for me because he thought that I was
Speaker 2: learning too much, and so he sent me to an
Speaker 2: all boys grammar school and that was a real sledgehammer.
Speaker 2: And you know, like when you when you're a gay person,
Speaker 2: you're the last person to know, and I was definitely
Speaker 2: the last person to know and found out from a
Speaker 2: lot of my peers that I was gay. And it
Speaker 2: was a very brutal, brutal and unkind period of my life.
Speaker 2: But I survived it. I don't know how, but yeah,
Speaker 2: there was way too many times where I didn't want
Speaker 2: to keep living. So I really have that understanding now
Speaker 2: with the kids that I work with, knowing exactly what
Speaker 2: it's like when you just don't want to be alive anymore.
Speaker 2: But luckily I had dogs, and I had the bush,
Speaker 2: and I got through and then when Jack Ruing. The
Speaker 2: problem is when you're working for your old man's company,
Speaker 2: the lot of the shopmen take out their frustrations on
Speaker 2: the boss's sons. So it was from the frying pan
Speaker 2: to the fire when it came to Jack Ruing. But
Speaker 2: I did something I shouldn't have done, and that is flogged.
Speaker 2: Flogged a car, and with my mates we hened off
Speaker 2: to Sydney and I came across a few modeling scouts
Speaker 2: and they all suggested that I had what it took
Speaker 2: to do modeling, and then I ended up saying yes
Speaker 2: to the next one that came along, and then probably
Speaker 2: about a week later, after returning the car, I was
Speaker 2: modeling the catwalks of Europe, and suddenly my whole world
Speaker 2: had changed, you know, from going from a station life
Speaker 2: to a boarding school life, and then I was opened
Speaker 2: up to this whole new world that I didn't know existed.
Speaker 2: And I had a very masculine child and a very
Speaker 2: masculine boarding school experience, and then to be opened up
Speaker 2: to the world of fashion and meeting people from every
Speaker 2: part of the world. And that's what happens in modeling.
Speaker 2: You know, you've got people from Eastern Europe and the
Speaker 2: Americas and a few Australians. But yeah, it really opened
Speaker 2: up my idea that there was a lot more to
Speaker 2: learn and a lot of what I've been told and
Speaker 2: led to believe in the one party state of Southern
Speaker 2: Queensland probably wasn't true. And I very much so went
Speaker 2: on a journey after that. I traveled to about eighty
Speaker 2: countries backpacking and just wanted to really find out what
Speaker 2: the lives of other people were, because it was quite
Speaker 2: different to what I've been told as a kid how
Speaker 2: the world was. You know, it was always a them
Speaker 2: and us type childhood. But that kind of really exploded
Speaker 2: my ability to know that, you know, you've always got
Speaker 2: to do something, to know something.
Speaker 1: That's amazing, mate. That is such a bloody incredible story.
Speaker 1: And isn't it funny how like when you grow up
Speaker 1: in like you grew up in a very specific environment
Speaker 1: with you know, like not too many people grew up
Speaker 1: in that environment on a hundred thousand acre farm with
Speaker 1: ten siblings, and who also, how old were you when
Speaker 1: you realized you were gay?
Speaker 2: Oh? Look when I accepted it early twenties.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then but all of that right, and but
Speaker 1: also the programming with the education and your dad's expectation
Speaker 1: and I'm on something more military and these are the rules,
Speaker 1: and you follow our rules, and this is the way
Speaker 1: the world is, David. This is the way the world is, David,
Speaker 1: and my way on the Highway. And then you like
Speaker 1: in fucking hot Disneyland on the other side of the world.
Speaker 1: It must have been like landing on Mars, mate.
Speaker 2: It was. It was exactly that. It was like landing
Speaker 2: on Mars. And because I had such a strong Western
Speaker 2: Queensland accent, people thought that I was from some European
Speaker 2: country that they'd never heard of. Like people didn't know
Speaker 2: that I spoke English. And it was really interesting when
Speaker 2: you know, people speak around you about you, and it
Speaker 2: was it was just it was very much like being
Speaker 2: an alien. And you know, I had no concept of
Speaker 2: that fashion world that for me, you know, growing up
Speaker 2: and as you suggest, you know, my father was all
Speaker 2: about everything is real. You know, you're not worth anything
Speaker 2: unless you create something or you produce food. And then
Speaker 2: here I was at the opposite end of the spectrum,
Speaker 2: people creating fashion, which was very not what my dad
Speaker 2: would have said.
Speaker 1: Was over. I can imagine you going Dad I'm in
Speaker 1: France and I'm putting on these really fucking expensive clothes
Speaker 1: that I don't own, and I'm whilsting down this fucking thing,
Speaker 1: doing a couple of pirouettes, waving to a few people
Speaker 1: and getting a shitload of money. I bet that went
Speaker 1: down like a coll bucket dispute.
Speaker 2: Well, funnily enough, when I told him what I was doing,
Speaker 2: he wouldn't shake my hand, and he actually spat on me.
Speaker 2: And he was so disgusted that I was going to
Speaker 2: actually do that. And he didn't spit on me in
Speaker 2: the way that you know modern people do it was
Speaker 2: he absolutely did it to say that he thought what
Speaker 2: I was doing was was was wrong, and that that, yeah,
Speaker 2: that he was he was absolutely disgusted.
Speaker 1: By I'm sorry to hear that. What what do you think,
Speaker 1: like now you're a grown up having a conversation, you
Speaker 1: look back and like you were a you know, a
Speaker 1: young man, what do you think that was about for
Speaker 1: your dad.
Speaker 2: Losing his best slave laborer. I think it was one
Speaker 2: big part of it, because you know I was I
Speaker 2: was seven day a weeker. You would, you know, camp
Speaker 2: in the tractor if we were cultivating or for harvesting,
Speaker 2: or planting. You know, you would do that for three
Speaker 2: four and sometimes up to six weeks, depending on how
Speaker 2: many acres we were doing. Or if I was out
Speaker 2: on a on a driving job, you know, would be
Speaker 2: three months on the back of horse horses. So he
Speaker 2: was losing, losing, I think, one of his best workers.
Speaker 2: But the other thing was he he's just generation, you know,
Speaker 2: the pre war, pre World War two generation where everything
Speaker 2: had to be real, and you know, he grew up
Speaker 2: in a time of the depression and then of course
Speaker 2: lived through the war when there was very very few
Speaker 2: men working, so children had to work, and of course
Speaker 2: women had to work where they hadn't done in generations before.
Speaker 2: So anything that was so perfluous he thought, And to
Speaker 2: a degree still I suppose thinks that it's just it's
Speaker 2: wrong and it's the devil's work.
Speaker 1: I suppose, Wow, I'm going to say welcome back, even
Speaker 1: though you technically didn't know I was going everyone I
Speaker 1: was because Mlesa sent me a message, which she never does,
Speaker 1: little across my screens said your microphone's dogshit or something
Speaker 1: to that effect. Ah, And whre nothing if not super professional, Dave.
Speaker 1: As you can imagine, Farmer Dave's nothing but impressed so far. Mate,
Speaker 1: how did that? Just getting back to your dad, because
Speaker 1: you work with kids, and I guess for some kids
Speaker 1: you're a bit of a father figure or at least
Speaker 1: a mentor teacher role model, someone they look up to
Speaker 1: and also tell me to get rooted and not talk
Speaker 1: about anything you don't want to. But how did that
Speaker 1: end up with your dad as you got older that relationship?
Speaker 2: Well, I think, like right now, being vulnerable is really important.
Speaker 2: That's what I teach the kids is, you know, we've
Speaker 2: got to share us stories, got to share share what
Speaker 2: we're going through to be able to work through it.
Speaker 2: I've always had a very complicated relationship with my father.
Speaker 2: I think many people have complicated relationship with the father,
Speaker 2: especially sons with their dads, I've found. But it gives
Speaker 2: me a real understanding when I'm working with kids who
Speaker 2: have been rejected by their parents, that at least I
Speaker 2: can understand where they're coming from, so I can give
Speaker 2: them my baggage, so that I can share the load
Speaker 2: of their baggage a little bit in their experiences. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I suppose where my father and I are now. Look,
Speaker 2: I was meant to take on the family station. As
Speaker 2: the youngest son in my family, that was my job.
Speaker 2: And you know, he really kept me on a leash
Speaker 2: to come back. Whenever I did go away and do
Speaker 2: amazing things, he would always say, well, look, you know,
Speaker 2: you've got to get back and get serious about it.
Speaker 2: But then, funnily enough, before I turned forty he he said, look,
Speaker 2: you know, well you're not going to take on the farm.
Speaker 2: And so it was a late in life kick in
Speaker 2: the guts that I suppose made me realize that I've
Speaker 2: got to be free of the expectations, whether he's putting
Speaker 2: them on me or I'm putting them on me from
Speaker 2: my dad and those family expectations that often you know,
Speaker 2: happen in countries like Pakistan or Nigeria, but you know,
Speaker 2: we in the rural parts of Australia still have those
Speaker 2: very intense family expectations. So being free of that was
Speaker 2: probably one of the greatest experiences of my life.
Speaker 1: What's been for you in terms of you figuring out
Speaker 1: who you are as a bloke and as a dad?
Speaker 1: You're a dad? Do you have four kids or something
Speaker 1: that I read.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, new babies.
Speaker 1: Well, now, so like dad, partner, brother, you know, businessman
Speaker 1: teacher meant, like, where in the middle of all of that,
Speaker 1: where do you get your sense of self from, like
Speaker 1: your identity who you are? Or is that not something
Speaker 1: that you think about?
Speaker 2: Oh look crazy. I think dropping the burden of ego
Speaker 2: was an amazing thing that I got to do quite
Speaker 2: some time ago, you know, because I had that big
Speaker 2: thing at such a young age, you know, nineteen twenty
Speaker 2: modeling all around the world and it's all about the
Speaker 2: way you look. I was able to shed that and
Speaker 2: because I was an extremely anxious person, you know, like
Speaker 2: I missed most of Grade twelve because I was hiding
Speaker 2: in the honey or hiding in the library, because I
Speaker 2: was so nervous to go into a classroom full of
Speaker 2: other other people. You know. Modeling freed me from that anxiety,
Speaker 2: But then it also allowed me to be free of
Speaker 2: that burden that ego really gives us, you know, and
Speaker 2: especially men. You know, I don't know if it's a
Speaker 2: testosterone or what it is, but this ego just comes
Speaker 2: down on us and forces us to do things that
Speaker 2: we probably wouldn't do without Without that, so I was
Speaker 2: able to release myself from from ego and just do
Speaker 2: things because it's right, or because it needs to be
Speaker 2: done as opposed to having that front. You know, when
Speaker 2: you work with teenage boys and even to a bigger extent,
Speaker 2: you know, the girls that I get to work with,
Speaker 2: you know, having that front is so so important. You know,
Speaker 2: it's all about making sure that you don't have any
Speaker 2: shame and avoiding things because of how everyone else thinks.
Speaker 2: So being able to get rid of all of those
Speaker 2: facades a very very long time time ago and to
Speaker 2: get to live my life without those facades, I think
Speaker 2: is really really important.
Speaker 1: I reckon, there's about seventy percent of my audience leaning in,
Speaker 1: going mate, how did you do that? How did you
Speaker 1: get because I mean, yeah, how did you let go
Speaker 1: of ego? What is that? I kind of know what
Speaker 1: it means, but what does it mean for you? How
Speaker 1: did you do that? Was that a spiritual process? Was
Speaker 1: that a decision? Was that a self awareness moment in time?
Speaker 1: Did something happen? Tell us about that? Because that's a
Speaker 1: fucking great achievement.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I suppose there's a few things there. One is
Speaker 2: being born, being born gay and then having all the
Speaker 2: facads and the protective mechanisms around you going through you know,
Speaker 2: an all boys boarding school, coming from a very very
Speaker 2: homophobic culture, being able to break down all of that
Speaker 2: and going, well, I actually want to live my life authentically.
Speaker 2: I want to be who I am and if people
Speaker 2: don't like that, well that's not my problem, that's their problem.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I can't change the color of my skin, I can't
Speaker 2: change my sexuality, but what I can change is people's
Speaker 2: opinions of me, just through living my life authentically and
Speaker 2: when there's so much you know, lying and deceit back
Speaker 2: when I was dealing with my sexuality, been free of
Speaker 2: that lying and being free of the deceit and being honest,
Speaker 2: I think was the first big breakthrough for me personally.
Speaker 2: Not everyone gets to go from straight to gay and
Speaker 2: be very happy in both camps. But I was really,
Speaker 2: really fortunate to have been had that transition and that
Speaker 2: amount of self awareness that comes with it and having
Speaker 2: to break through such an extreme cultural barrier was pretty powerful.
Speaker 2: And you know, I also went on a show with
Speaker 2: three million people Watch Your Big Brother back in two
Speaker 2: thousand and six really say boom, this is me, this
Speaker 2: is who I am, and I'm with it. If you're not, well,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but it's not my issue. That's going to
Speaker 2: be yours that you need to work through. But I'm
Speaker 2: going to live life who I am. I'm not a
Speaker 2: not a broken straight man. I'm a proud gay man.
Speaker 2: So that was really powerful to be able to say
Speaker 2: that at twenty six. And I suppose moving through that.
Speaker 2: You know, I've had many businesses that were extremely successful
Speaker 2: and they failed, but that getting up experience and know
Speaker 2: that getting back up and going all is not lost.
Speaker 2: And I think you know, a Rhodesian teacher told me
Speaker 2: that when he was an immigrant, and obviously he had
Speaker 2: lost everything when he west left Roojija during the Bush War,
Speaker 2: which is obviously now Zimbabwe, but he, you know, he
Speaker 2: very much so said to me one day when I
Speaker 2: was hiding in the bathroom and he came down to
Speaker 2: try and find me, he just said, look, all's not
Speaker 2: lost me, All's not lost. You have the ability from
Speaker 2: this moment in every other moment moving forward to choose
Speaker 2: how you want to be and if you want to
Speaker 2: stay in here you can, but just remember all is
Speaker 2: not lost. And that was a beautiful thing for that
Speaker 2: man to say to me.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a metaphor. If you want to stay
Speaker 1: in this little room, this little isolated, disconnected no one
Speaker 1: to talk to room. You can, ye, you extrapolate that
Speaker 1: to the world and what you've done since. And also
Speaker 1: when you think about like being you, whoever you are, whatever,
Speaker 1: that means, being authentically you in the world, whether it's Melissa, you, me,
Speaker 1: or anyone listening to this. But how fucking exhausting is
Speaker 1: it pretending to be someone you're not?
Speaker 2: Can you imagine George Santos like the array of lies
Speaker 2: that he has around, all of those personas that he has,
Speaker 2: and I think for him, you know, again, growing up,
Speaker 2: gaining a conservative culture that can do that to you.
Speaker 2: You have to put all these masks on, and you
Speaker 2: have to put all this ego in front of you.
Speaker 2: Hard to walk back from that. But when you can
Speaker 2: turf all that to the side and go, you know,
Speaker 2: when someone says how are you feeling today, and you
Speaker 2: can actually be honest, But then do you be genuinely
Speaker 2: interested in how they're feeling? I think there's a way
Speaker 2: to break through all of that burden of ego that
Speaker 2: we all carry.
Speaker 1: And I bet, I mean, I'm sure there are a
Speaker 1: few little speed humbs here and there, because you're normal
Speaker 1: in life and the world's not perfect. But I bet
Speaker 1: for the most part you went, why the fuck didn't
Speaker 1: I do that five years ago?
Speaker 2: Oh? Look, I checked myself all the time, and I
Speaker 2: encourage the young people that I work with to. You know,
Speaker 2: we check ourselves all the time. Whenever we're going off
Speaker 2: on tangents where we know that we're not being real
Speaker 2: or not being grounded, well, then yeah, you've got to
Speaker 2: check yourself continuously. It's a daily process.
Speaker 1: It's funny with dudes too, I mean everyone, but with
Speaker 1: men too, because of the ego thing and the testosterone thing,
Speaker 1: and the cultural and the programming. Like what your dad
Speaker 1: expected of you? How many sisters did you have?
Speaker 3: By the way, yeah five brothers now, no disrespect, but
Speaker 3: I bet dad wasn't expecting any of the girls to
Speaker 3: take over the farm, right, No, he was stereotypically, But
Speaker 3: so the.
Speaker 2: Girls are in the house and the boys are out
Speaker 2: in the fields, except if there was stick picking to do,
Speaker 2: then everyone was out picking sticks. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that like we
Speaker 1: we kind of get intentionally or not for better or worse,
Speaker 1: often worse, like shoved into these stereotypical you know, rolls
Speaker 1: or sluts, and then you've kind of like you you
Speaker 1: are a version of your parents, or a version of
Speaker 1: your friends or peers, or your culture or your religion
Speaker 1: or the programming from the media or social media these days.
Speaker 1: And then in the middle of that, it's try. It's
Speaker 1: hard to and also daved because I guess everyone wants
Speaker 1: to belong to something, right. And then if all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you go, hey, everyone, I've been pretending I'm
Speaker 1: actually gay, or I actually fucking hate bowling everyone on
Speaker 1: Friday nights, I fucking hate it. Also I'm a vegetarian
Speaker 1: or my carnival friends.
Speaker 4: Sorry fucking I don't you know whatever, And there's that
Speaker 4: it takes a lot of courage to go I actually,
Speaker 4: you know, I still want to be loved and needed
Speaker 4: and wanted and valued and connected, but I'm not in
Speaker 4: that group.
Speaker 1: I'm not in the heterosexual group. Sorry dudes, sorry whoever,
Speaker 1: I'm not like that.
Speaker 2: And you don't have to change everyone around you, you know, Like, No,
Speaker 2: when I accepted myself as gay, I didn't want everyone
Speaker 2: around me to become gay. I think that's about ah.
Speaker 1: I thought that's how it worked.
Speaker 2: No, write that down, But you know, it's one of
Speaker 2: those things that when you accept the new you, you
Speaker 2: don't have to make everyone else change, you know that.
Speaker 2: The one thing that I've always noticed when people do
Speaker 2: go through these periods of being the new authentic self,
Speaker 2: they're like, well, everyone else needs to come on my
Speaker 2: journey with me. It's like no, no, no, you do
Speaker 2: your boom if you've become a vegan, not everyone around
Speaker 2: you needs to be a vegan as well. Like you,
Speaker 2: just do you and and shine as yourself. You don't
Speaker 2: have to have you don't have to recreate your own tribe.
Speaker 2: You can find your new tribe. But there's nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with being a vegan with fifteen in your circle of friends,
Speaker 2: fifteen that are they're not vegan.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also, I mean this is we've spoken about
Speaker 1: this lately on the show, is just like what about
Speaker 1: having friends where whether it's politically or religiously or culturally
Speaker 1: or sociologically or philosophically, they think A and you think B.
Speaker 1: And you vote liberally and I vote labor And you've
Speaker 1: barracked for this team and I barrack for that team.
Speaker 1: And you know, I went I went and saw Avatar
Speaker 1: with one of my best mates, a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: and he's gay and I'm not. And I said to
Speaker 1: someone said, what are you doing like tonight? I said,
Speaker 1: I've got a date and they said who with? I said, Patrick,
Speaker 1: We're going to the Avatar And it kind of messed
Speaker 1: with them a bit. I go, one of is one
Speaker 1: of the best friends, Like, that's what We're going to
Speaker 1: see a film? Yeah, and they like almost like I
Speaker 1: could see him thinking what does that mean? Though, yes, dude,
Speaker 1: it means I'm hanging out with a friend, We're seeing
Speaker 1: a film. But like people like is that. I'm like,
Speaker 1: come on, come.
Speaker 2: On, the human brain, we we just need to box things,
Speaker 2: you know. And it's it's the the you know, this
Speaker 2: huge brain that we have that that any woman has
Speaker 2: ever had a child knows exactly how big the brain is.
Speaker 2: But this huge brain that we have just needs to
Speaker 2: box things so we can move on. You know, there's
Speaker 2: so much information out there that the human brain is
Speaker 2: a box box, box box, so we can just focus
Speaker 2: on what's what's important. But I think, you know, we
Speaker 2: had this thirty years of world Librettism and where everyone
Speaker 2: was free, and you know, the world's just gone forward
Speaker 2: in such giant leaps and you know, poverty has really
Speaker 2: gone by the wayside for the vast majority of the planet.
Speaker 2: So he's just had this this amazing awakening period. But
Speaker 2: then I think, now we're going back into the boxes.
Speaker 2: And I think social media, which was meant to flourish ideas,
Speaker 2: is making people think smaller and going back into those
Speaker 2: comfortable tribes. And I think you need to be uncomfortable
Speaker 2: each day. And as you say, have friends that you
Speaker 2: can listen to or talk with. You don't have to
Speaker 2: agree with everyone, Like if you're in an echo chamber
Speaker 2: of your own thoughts, that's pretty scary to me. Like
Speaker 2: that would be the most terrifying things to me. I
Speaker 2: want my friends to all be all be of different
Speaker 2: ILKs so that we're all challenging each other but also
Speaker 2: learning from each other.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, And if you happen to agree, cool,
Speaker 1: and if you don't, also cool. But us being friends
Speaker 1: is not conditional upon these five rules that we must
Speaker 1: or these values. But you just got to have a
Speaker 1: look at this little document before we become friends. It's
Speaker 1: just seven pages. Just get your lawyer to check it
Speaker 1: and just sign here, here, and here. It's like, that's
Speaker 1: not a friendship that's a arrangement, that's a strategic, something
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound anything like love or kindness or acceptance
Speaker 1: or tolerance. Now, Melissa and I both dog lovers, and
Speaker 1: you'll make us look like complete amateurs. You love humans,
Speaker 1: you love helping humans, but you're a little bit partial
Speaker 1: to fucking I think I think animals are your favorite people.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Absolutely, Yeah, tell us about your favorite people.
Speaker 2: Oh look, I've got Jimmy, Jimmy wandering around at my
Speaker 2: feet right now. Look, I think dogs can teach us
Speaker 2: so much because you know, they listen so much, and
Speaker 2: sometimes as humans, we just want to be heard, and
Speaker 2: especially teenagers, they just want to be heard. But look,
Speaker 2: I've been working with dogs since I was three years old,
Speaker 2: and training dogs since I was five. And the communication
Speaker 2: that you can have without words, without the language that
Speaker 2: you're that you use each day, but just focusing on
Speaker 2: behavior and body movement and communicate through that, I think
Speaker 2: is something special because it tunes you in to a
Speaker 2: whole new level of communication. And that's why I love
Speaker 2: animals so much, regardless of the species, but definitely dogs,
Speaker 2: because you know, they were a human construct. We created them.
Speaker 2: What fifteen thousand years ago to work with us and
Speaker 2: to be our best mates. And haven't they done a
Speaker 2: bloody good job on that front?
Speaker 1: And isn't it bizarre? Correct me if I'm wrong, because
Speaker 1: I'm I'm no animalologist, clearly, but didn't didn't we start
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand years ago with a couple of wolves and
Speaker 1: just breeding, breeding, breeding, pick and choose, pick and choose,
Speaker 1: pick and choose the most docile and friendly or the
Speaker 1: least vicious, And we ended up with fucking.
Speaker 2: Spoodles pretty much, pretty much, that's kind of happening.
Speaker 1: Ended up with grodles, noodles, doodles, noodles, fucking spoodles, doodles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this amazing thing when docility on the alleyles
Speaker 2: creates colors and creates variation, and that's why dogs have
Speaker 2: variated so much. And again, you know, most of our
Speaker 2: domesticated species, when we choose docility or bitability, that ability
Speaker 2: for us to be able to manipulate them or keep
Speaker 2: them in a minotonized or a childlike state, we have
Speaker 2: the amazing variation of color and all that. And you know,
Speaker 2: obviously we've proven that with silver foxes with studies done
Speaker 2: in Russia, and of course with rats and all sorts
Speaker 2: of things that human fanciers are being breeding over the
Speaker 2: last hundred years, so docility and variation comes, and we
Speaker 2: humans love variation. At the moment, the human seems to
Speaker 2: absolutely love anything that's got a bit of poodle in it.
Speaker 1: What's that about?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I don't know. I think we all just
Speaker 2: are missing our teddies. And especially during the lockdown period
Speaker 2: when a million new dogs joined us th Elier, I
Speaker 2: think three quarters of those were oodles of some sscription
Speaker 2: because we all just needed our teddy from our childhood.
Speaker 1: Again, that's so funny, that's maybe that's maybe it so
Speaker 1: you you, I don't know, was it I read? I
Speaker 1: can't remember off the top of my head, but like,
Speaker 1: was it nine or eight or nine or ten years ago?
Speaker 1: You opened basically Disneyland for dogs? Yeah, tell us about
Speaker 1: what was that and what was that about?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So obviously working with dogs forever traveling the world,
Speaker 2: you know, you see the interactions of different peoples with
Speaker 2: their dogs, beating the Amazon a beat in Siberia or
Speaker 2: beating the Himalayas, and dogs are such an integral part
Speaker 2: to the human experience, and you know, dogs have gotten
Speaker 2: me through everything but it you know, minus twenty degrees
Speaker 2: in Mongolia in a tent. You know, if I didn't
Speaker 2: have three dogs under the reindeer pelts with me, I
Speaker 2: would have absolutely frozen. But about ten years ago I
Speaker 2: was training dogs to do some search and rescue and
Speaker 2: china them how to jump out of planes, you know,
Speaker 2: on my person, and I had a terrible, terrible parachuting
Speaker 2: accident and was in a wheelchair for about a year
Speaker 2: and broken hands, broken everything. So prior to that period,
Speaker 2: I'd used force training, which is, you know, you compel
Speaker 2: a dog to do something. A dog does something wrong,
Speaker 2: you growl at it, and I'm shamed to say it,
Speaker 2: but you know, training stock dogs, i'd use shop collars,
Speaker 2: I'd kick the kick dogs, throwing stones at dogs, because
Speaker 2: all about getting the job done, you know. I'd very
Speaker 2: much so had that mindset from my family and the
Speaker 2: culture that I grew up in. But when you're in
Speaker 2: a wheelchair and your hands don't work. Look, my parents
Speaker 2: sent me a kelpie from the farm, and because I
Speaker 2: couldn't obviously be on the farm, I was too much
Speaker 2: of a burden, and so I was living in the
Speaker 2: city in my wheelchair and this dog, you know, if
Speaker 2: it did anything wrong, I couldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 2: But I could still flick at a treat. So I
Speaker 2: did what we call positive reinforcement quadrant learning, which is
Speaker 2: click and treat. You know, the dog does something you like,
Speaker 2: you give it a treat. And I was got through
Speaker 2: my black dog and got through my severe depression of
Speaker 2: being someone that loves to do four thousand things at
Speaker 2: once and was completely in this series of casts and
Speaker 2: unable to do anything. But you know, I was able
Speaker 2: to get my dog to get my toothbrush, to open
Speaker 2: the door, to be able to go and get whatever
Speaker 2: it was that I needed the dog to do, even
Speaker 2: to grab my blanket to open up my bed so
Speaker 2: I could jump in bed. And then when I got
Speaker 2: a little bit more mobile, she would have a little
Speaker 2: part would go to the shops and I would put
Speaker 2: all the shopping in it. She just did everything for me.
Speaker 2: And I realized that I absolutely owed my life to dogs,
Speaker 2: be it on the station, getting through the droughts, or
Speaker 2: doing all the droving, or as I say, up in
Speaker 2: that frozen territories of Mongolia. And then at that period
Speaker 2: of time, through that terrible black dog period, So I
Speaker 2: wanted people to experience the absolute joy of dogs, but
Speaker 2: doing in more kinder, more so lines based way, but
Speaker 2: also be able to honor all the different breeds that
Speaker 2: we humans have created, from the keilpie with sheep herding,
Speaker 2: to the greyhound with racing, or the whippet with racing,
Speaker 2: to all the water dogs. And so yeah, we built
Speaker 2: this Disneyland that had about twenty sports that people could
Speaker 2: do with their dogs, and also wanted them to understand
Speaker 2: that you don't have to incarcerate a dog if it
Speaker 2: hasn't worked for a family. You know, you think of
Speaker 2: the typical shelter back then was very much so a
Speaker 2: meter by two meters sell and like that's a like
Speaker 2: why if we made the wrong choice or whatever reason,
Speaker 2: a dog's going to a shelter, why are they in
Speaker 2: a living condition like a jail. They've done nothing wrong.
Speaker 2: So we had a five acres of free range living
Speaker 2: for the dogs and they had pools, they had jungle gyms,
Speaker 2: they had absolutely everything, plus access to all the sports.
Speaker 2: So I take a lot of dogs from shelter, has
Speaker 2: allowed them to become a dog so that they didn't
Speaker 2: have those stereotypic enough they were self mutilating or if
Speaker 2: they were jumping against the cages, or if they were
Speaker 2: attacking people, because they just become stereotypic in that cell.
Speaker 2: Often back then they would just put the dog down
Speaker 2: right because of behavioral problems. They couldn't rehime it. But
Speaker 2: they would come learn how to be a dog again,
Speaker 2: and then very quickly they would be rehomed back at
Speaker 2: the shelter. So it was a place where I think
Speaker 2: about fifteen thousand people from Sydney came to to learn
Speaker 2: or to have fun with their dogs. And that was
Speaker 2: really me giving back to dogs to say, hey, thanks
Speaker 2: for allowing me to live my life.
Speaker 1: Wow, I have a good question, but there's a point.
Speaker 1: What color was the kelpie as.
Speaker 2: You, black and tan with a big white chest.
Speaker 1: So a black dog helped you get through the black dog?
Speaker 2: Funny enough? Yeah, I never thought of that.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're welcome, you can use that. Yeah about Rough Track, mate.
Speaker 2: So Rough Track is a place where kids can come
Speaker 2: to get their lives back on track and make the
Speaker 2: most out of their lives. So kids come to us
Speaker 2: via the police. They come to us fire referrals from
Speaker 2: different care agencies, from schools, from families that just aren't coping,
Speaker 2: and it's really a place that we promise them three
Speaker 2: things that will keep them alife, that will keep them
Speaker 2: out of prison, and we'll give them skills for a
Speaker 2: secure future. And those skills come right down to the
Speaker 2: simple basics how to deal with the stressful situation. And
Speaker 2: that strestful situation could be absolutely anything been spoken to
Speaker 2: by another person going to a job interview. So we
Speaker 2: do a lot on communication, a lot on anger management,
Speaker 2: a lot on dealing with anxiety, dealing with depression, and
Speaker 2: we do it all through a very unique way of
Speaker 2: being farm based. So they're touching the earth, they're growing crops,
Speaker 2: they're growing vegetables, they're working with dogs. Every single day.
Speaker 2: We do a lot of dog work, so it's out
Speaker 2: walking your dogs, so learning about real relationships. You know,
Speaker 2: I've got a loose leash and your dog's on a
Speaker 2: loose leash. That says a lot about your ability in
Speaker 2: your relationships. And then I can talk to the kids
Speaker 2: in action, so you're not just sitting there having a
Speaker 2: conversation like a therapist does or a counselor, because often
Speaker 2: teenagers just don't like that situation. We're having conversations, which
Speaker 2: a real world is a leash really tight? You know,
Speaker 2: what relationship do you have at the moment where you
Speaker 2: feel like you're being dragged along? And then the kid
Speaker 2: can open up and then soon enough, you know, we
Speaker 2: can have that dog on a loose lead, and they
Speaker 2: feel so much better, and it's like, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe you could try this or try that, or what
Speaker 2: do you reckon? You could try and then you're guiding
Speaker 2: the kid into a conversation where they can communicate more
Speaker 2: effectively but also acknowledge how they can improve their relationships
Speaker 2: just by simply walking a dog on a leash, you know.
Speaker 2: And I'll have ten, fifteen or twenty kids out walking
Speaker 2: dogs and I'll just jump from one to the next,
Speaker 2: and then we can reflect on what's going on. Then
Speaker 2: we all meet in the bush and which our bush classroom,
Speaker 2: all these logs, and they just sit there with their
Speaker 2: dog and we can take in the world, do a
Speaker 2: little bit of meditation. We're taking the colors, the smells,
Speaker 2: and we can just ease their minds and rest their
Speaker 2: minds for a little bit. And you know what, that's
Speaker 2: the first twenty minutes of being in rough Track. So's
Speaker 2: it's an amazing place, but it's all about making sure
Speaker 2: that we have kids that get to live the life
Speaker 2: that I've got to live.
Speaker 1: Well, that's bloody incredible. I'm trying to visualize, like I'm
Speaker 1: getting lost in the story. I'm not thinking about what's
Speaker 1: my next question. I'm going I want to go there,
Speaker 1: I want to sit in the bush, I want to
Speaker 1: walk a dog. I want to get him or her
Speaker 1: on it looselyd how does it like? Do they come
Speaker 1: three days? Do they is it like? What is that
Speaker 1: a program that goes for an extended period of time?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: How does it work? Like?
Speaker 3: Yep?
Speaker 2: So we have the core kids that are continuing on
Speaker 2: from last year. So I think there's about there's about
Speaker 2: fifteen of those that are continuing on and they'll be
Speaker 2: with us for five or three five or three days
Speaker 2: and a week, and then we have what we call
Speaker 2: our roundyard kids. In roundyard, for anyone that's ever been
Speaker 2: on a farm or seen a seen cheap hurting demonstrations,
Speaker 2: it's the dog on the opposite side and bringing sheep
Speaker 2: back to you, or moving in a circular motion. And
Speaker 2: that's one of the fundamental trainings that we do, is
Speaker 2: teaching kids perspectives. They understand what it's like from someone
Speaker 2: else's point of view, which a lot of the kids
Speaker 2: that come to us haven't learnt what it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's why, you know, often they can be violental,
Speaker 2: steal or hurt other people because they really don't have
Speaker 2: the hole wearing someone else's shoes point of view. So
Speaker 2: that perspective is the roundyard project that goes ten weeks,
Speaker 2: and the kids usually come like you know, some of
Speaker 2: the ones that came today, hoodies on, heads down. It's
Speaker 2: bought it hot, right, but you know, they're all very
Speaker 2: aged within themselves and angry at the world. And what
Speaker 2: we try I do over a very very short period
Speaker 2: of time is get them to express themselves, get them
Speaker 2: to communicate effectively, and to trust us. And we do
Speaker 2: that all through the dogs and also to be responsible.
Speaker 2: The first thing I do when they arrive is pick
Speaker 2: up the dog shit, you know, clean out the dog's waters,
Speaker 2: make sure the dogs okay, connect with the dog, do
Speaker 2: a little bit of training with the dog, bond with
Speaker 2: the dog, and then I can work with them really
Speaker 2: really easily because the dogs are already created that little
Speaker 2: opening that I can peek in and say, okay, young
Speaker 2: follow How you doing?
Speaker 1: How many dogs do you have?
Speaker 2: Mate, ah, between twenty and thirty. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: give you an exact number, because you know, you always
Speaker 2: feel a bit crazy dog man if you give an
Speaker 2: exact number.
Speaker 1: But I don't like that. Once you get over five,
Speaker 1: you're a crazy dog man. So don't fucking worry about
Speaker 1: the number, like only twenty six, Craig, I'm completely sane. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not so a good way.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that I reckon that look a
Speaker 2: lot of our sisters because we're part of a wider
Speaker 2: tracker network from Queensland right across New South Wales and
Speaker 2: there's lots of these programs, well I should say lots,
Speaker 2: there's eleven of these programs. We're a little bit different
Speaker 2: because every kid gets a dog in our program. I
Speaker 2: think with the big city that Sydney is, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of disconnect and I really want the kids to connect,
Speaker 2: or really want them to find that very quickly. In
Speaker 2: our program. We don't have the smaller town headspace that
Speaker 2: a lot of our sister programs have because we're in
Speaker 2: such a big, disconnected city and our kids are so
Speaker 2: disconnected from school or family or culture. That them working
Speaker 2: with a single dog for the entire ten week program
Speaker 2: I think is so valuable because of got to have
Speaker 2: that relationship. And at the end of the period, Craig,
Speaker 2: this is where it gets interesting. And everyone always has
Speaker 2: the same question, I hope what I'm jumping into you,
Speaker 2: But do they get to keep the dog? And the
Speaker 2: answer is no, because a lot of our kids come
Speaker 2: from quite violent homestic violence is just a part of life.
Speaker 2: And one of the skills that I want each young
Speaker 2: person that comes to us to take away is your
Speaker 2: ability to absolutely love something, be so in love with
Speaker 2: a dog because they can't with a dog. They sleep
Speaker 2: with a dog in their swags when we're off doing
Speaker 2: trips or shows with their dogs, so they're really bonded
Speaker 2: with the dogs. But I want them to know that
Speaker 2: it's okay to let go. And that skill, I think
Speaker 2: is something that is really lacking in a lot of
Speaker 2: the young people that will come to us, is learning
Speaker 2: that skill to love and let go, as opposed to
Speaker 2: will I need you and I'll force you to be
Speaker 2: with me.
Speaker 1: Wow, there's so many body variables in this I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1: So is there a Davies there? If so, when you said,
Speaker 1: the people are coming back from last year which are
Speaker 1: out three to five day are weekers? Yeah, whatever that means.
Speaker 1: How are they are they kind of ongoing? Who are
Speaker 1: they versus the people that come in and out for
Speaker 1: ten weeks.
Speaker 2: Well, they're our amazing young people that still need more
Speaker 2: of the program. They can't go back into education. So
Speaker 2: my big goal for the kids is there's only two
Speaker 2: ways to leave rough Track, and that is full time
Speaker 2: educational full time employment. Other than that, you're staying with me,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to get you to that point that
Speaker 2: you are absolutely ready. And I don't want the kids
Speaker 2: to go to early because I don't want them to
Speaker 2: fall flat on their face and go, well, I'm not
Speaker 2: going I'm never going to get a job again because
Speaker 2: that was too terrible. You know. I want them to
Speaker 2: be absolutely ready, which is why and I get the
Speaker 2: kids to do live television, they do performances in front
Speaker 2: of thirty thousand people, they do performances in front of
Speaker 2: their own families. So I really challenge their abilities to
Speaker 2: make sure that they have all of the boundaries pushed
Speaker 2: so when they do go back to school or they
Speaker 2: do go into the employment world, they're absolutely ready. And
Speaker 2: they've got all the resilience and all the tools and
Speaker 2: their toolkit that they can deal with any given situation.
Speaker 2: So it's it's an extremely full on program to ten weeks.
Speaker 2: But then the Core program, those kids that continue on
Speaker 2: with us. Sometimes we'll have twenty kids continue on with us.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we'll have, as we've got at the moment, about
Speaker 2: fifteen continuing on with us. And they are the little
Speaker 2: legends that help the other kids. It's just like a station.
Speaker 2: You know, most farmers you'll say, how do I train
Speaker 2: a dog? They're like, I don't know, only trained one
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, and then that dog's trained
Speaker 2: all the other dogs. So people don't like it when
Speaker 2: I like in kids to dogs, but I do. I
Speaker 2: love dogs more than anything in the world, and I
Speaker 2: love the kids that I work with more than anything
Speaker 2: in the world. But the kids that continue on from Core,
Speaker 2: they will teach the other kids everything they need to know.
Speaker 2: And kids tend to learn better from their own mates
Speaker 2: than they do it from the old people that don't
Speaker 2: know anything.
Speaker 1: So many questions. Now, firstly, you built, you created a
Speaker 1: problem for yourself because problem right, Well here's the problem.
Speaker 1: So you go they're either going back in full time
Speaker 1: education or full time employment, and if they don't with me,
Speaker 1: I'll be like, fuck that, I'm staying here. Fuck employment,
Speaker 1: that's cool. I'm starting on the farm with farmer Dave.
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at me. I'm done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a bit of an issue that we
Speaker 2: did create, probably a space that kids want to.
Speaker 1: Who would want to leave, You would want to leave?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to leave, and I haven't been been there.
Speaker 2: So I do work them really hard. Like I've got
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, Craiglock. When we're doing clean
Speaker 2: up jobs after the floods, or we're doing bushfire fencing
Speaker 2: recovery jobs, you know, we'll be working from six thirty
Speaker 2: in the morning till six thirty or ninety there's a
Speaker 2: daylight hour. We're using it to build fences for people,
Speaker 2: clean up paddocks that have got crap on them from
Speaker 2: the floods, or cleaning out people's houses. So I really
Speaker 2: do work them. So there is a bit of a
Speaker 2: push factor into the employment work. And the funny thing
Speaker 2: is I caught up with three young blokes just recently
Speaker 2: at a big event and I asked him. I said, oh,
Speaker 2: how's work? And they're like, way easier than Rough Track,
Speaker 2: And you know that's to me, that's awesome because I've
Speaker 2: done my job. I've shown them you know this is fun. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to push you a bit further, push
Speaker 2: you a bit further, push you a bit further, so
Speaker 2: when they do go into a job, it's a breeze.
Speaker 2: You know. I want them to ask to get into
Speaker 2: that job and go, wow, this is this is really easy.
Speaker 2: What was I worried about or what is you know
Speaker 2: my family members that aren't employed because some of our
Speaker 2: kids got multi generational unemployment. You know, I want them
Speaker 2: to go in like a breeze because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of pressure put on them and fear about a job.
Speaker 2: Much easier to go on the doll or much easier
Speaker 2: just to stay at home and do drugs. You know.
Speaker 2: So it's really pushing them every which way I can
Speaker 2: within the safety wrap around that is Rough Track, so
Speaker 2: that when they go out into that job world, they're
Speaker 2: just like, WHOA, how.
Speaker 1: Long had they amazing? How long before?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: So they come in today the new group, hands in
Speaker 1: the pocket hoodies, fucking looking at their feet. Everyone's a
Speaker 1: fucking idiot, No one knows anything. You can all get
Speaker 1: rooted and fuck you and I'm the toughest and whatever.
Speaker 1: How long before that becomes where they're you know, they're
Speaker 1: starting to integrate, they've made a friend or two, they're
Speaker 1: opening up a little bit, and there's you know, it's
Speaker 1: a bit warmer and less chaotic. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So in our program, it usually takes up to about
Speaker 2: three weeks, and they're real hard nuts to crack three weeks.
Speaker 2: But it's really I've got to get them here every day.
Speaker 2: So if i can get them here the two days
Speaker 2: a week that the roundyard kids come, so Tuesdays and Thursdays,
Speaker 2: it's usually things start to change by week two. Then
Speaker 2: by week three three, they really are those all those
Speaker 2: barriers are gone. They've got their heads up there. Certainly
Speaker 2: the hoodies are off and they're communicating with each other.
Speaker 2: They're having fun. They're not just going to come and
Speaker 2: then fight straight on. You know, just how they are
Speaker 2: in the first week.
Speaker 1: Don't fucking look at me, oh.
Speaker 2: Cricky like they yeah, yeah, the first week is just like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, here we go again.
Speaker 1: And do you have any big lumps working for you
Speaker 1: that can kind of just step in the breach there
Speaker 1: and go listen. Listen Champ and listen Sugarray. Listen. Mike
Speaker 1: Tyson said, all the fuck down. Do you have anyone
Speaker 1: that can kind of manage that or do you have
Speaker 1: to do that?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I always take any punches. If a punch
Speaker 2: is going to come, and look, I'll just hug the
Speaker 2: young person. I'll hug them. I'll move them to a
Speaker 2: new place. And so you know, it's always about redirecting.
Speaker 2: It's no different to dogs. It's just redirect get them
Speaker 2: interested in something else, get the energy out whatever's been
Speaker 2: pent up. I mean, you know, they're just dealing with
Speaker 2: the anxieties that are building up in them, that are
Speaker 2: adrenaline is going through their system. They've got to get
Speaker 2: rid of it. So I'll just redirect them off somewhere else.
Speaker 2: And if they whack me or try and stab me
Speaker 2: for a bit, women, that's okay. But then the main
Speaker 2: thing that I get through to them is that they
Speaker 2: are loved and they are valued, and they are heard
Speaker 2: and come over here because I really want to. I
Speaker 2: want to hear what's going on with you. And then
Speaker 2: you know the tears will come and again oftentimes that
Speaker 2: anger is usually just a whole heap of hurt that
Speaker 2: they've got. The hurt people, hurt people. Well, these kids
Speaker 2: really been hurt by people. You know, I would would
Speaker 2: never try and tell you what some of these kids
Speaker 2: have been through, but you just have your most terrible thoughts,
Speaker 2: and that's what a lot of our kids have been through,
Speaker 2: you know, the most terrible situations that people have done
Speaker 2: to them. So they're carrying a lot of hurt and
Speaker 2: sometimes all they know is to put that hurt on
Speaker 2: someone else. So my job is to find a place
Speaker 2: for them to be able to release that pain, but
Speaker 2: also manage that pain and have the skills so that
Speaker 2: when they're triggered by it again, they've got a whole
Speaker 2: array of tools, and their tool get to go, you
Speaker 2: know what, I can get myself out of this situation
Speaker 2: so that I'm not hurt, but no one else is hurt.
Speaker 1: You are quite unique. Do you know what a great
Speaker 1: bloke you are? I know you don't like compliments probably,
Speaker 1: but what you do is fucking amazing. Do you know that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: Thanks man, But I mean like, and I.
Speaker 1: Know, I know it's not about you. I know it's
Speaker 1: about the kids, and I know that. But truly, dude,
Speaker 1: you are true. I meet a lot of cool people
Speaker 1: and you are right up there like you inspire me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm proud of you, and I don't even know you.
Speaker 1: The shit that you do is because like it's messy,
Speaker 1: it's not uncomfortable. I mean, it's not comfortable. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's I'm sure there's many times where it's somewhere between
Speaker 1: dangerous and just fucking shitty and unrelenting. And but then
Speaker 1: you're talking about loving these kids who are trying to
Speaker 1: stab you or hit you. What is that about? Where
Speaker 1: does that come from? Is that something you've developed or
Speaker 1: is that you Is that innate?
Speaker 2: It could be, it could be innate. But look, when
Speaker 2: I was a little kid and I had to manage
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen or twenty stock dogs, all different stockmen, right,
Speaker 2: so you know, like I'd have to manage the camp
Speaker 2: of dogs, put them away, feed them, to let them
Speaker 2: all all that sort of stuff, and pick up all
Speaker 2: their dogshit. Was I started doing that at three years
Speaker 2: of age, so I was a little tiny thing. So
Speaker 2: I had to learn very quick how to manage dogs.
Speaker 1: And they've got teeth right, softable, yeah, and they can
Speaker 1: be unpredictable and fierce and yeah.
Speaker 2: So I learned a lot of ways of how to
Speaker 2: redirect anger and anxiety back then, and how to move
Speaker 2: things around and create flow systems from a very very
Speaker 2: young age. And of course having five brothers and five sisters,
Speaker 2: you learn how to do it with humans as well.
Speaker 2: And then going to boarding school, you really learn and
Speaker 2: you see what works and what doesn't work. And the
Speaker 2: one thing that I think consistently never really worked was
Speaker 2: when we punish people, especial young people that don't have
Speaker 2: the tool kits or the cognitive ability to see around
Speaker 2: corners or look in hinhdsight. They just don't have hindsight
Speaker 2: to look upon. So it's very much so about always
Speaker 2: rewarding the good behaviors and always looking for the gold.
Speaker 2: You know, there's always a lot of shit for a
Speaker 2: gold miner to go through. And I'm like that Fossica
Speaker 2: that got off the boat from California into the Australian
Speaker 2: out back and he walked how many weeks and weeks
Speaker 2: and weeks to get to the gold field and that
Speaker 2: still had the gold fever. Keep searching for that gold.
Speaker 2: And that's what I do with these kids, is no
Speaker 2: matter how many times they tell me to fuck off,
Speaker 2: no matter how many times they just totally ignore me
Speaker 2: and give me absolutely nothing. I'm just looking for that gold.
Speaker 2: As soon as I see that little shine, then I
Speaker 2: feel alive because I know that I can work with
Speaker 2: this kid, because this kid, as every kid, is worth
Speaker 2: having the wonderful life that I've had. Like when you've
Speaker 2: seen death like I have, and sometimes at your own hand,
Speaker 2: which is you know as I look back and I go,
Speaker 2: thank God, I didn't do that. But when you when
Speaker 2: you see that this kid really does have something that
Speaker 2: they want to let you in, I jump in there
Speaker 2: like that fossica.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's Blenny, and.
Speaker 2: I mind that gold. And you know what it's It's
Speaker 2: all about just rewarding that good behavior because very quickly
Speaker 2: all those terrible things that often teenagers throw out the world.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've all met one, we were one too
Speaker 2: much as it can be assholes. But the thing is
Speaker 2: that I've given an opportunity to be something else. There
Speaker 2: is no greater joy than when you get a team
Speaker 2: ager to choose something else than being an asshole.
Speaker 1: Fucking brilliant. And also, by the way, leadership training can
Speaker 1: start at three everyone I did for Dave was in
Speaker 1: management at three who was head of canine resources including
Speaker 1: picking up dog shit, feeding, grooming. Wow, so how do
Speaker 1: did that go down at the dinner table? How are
Speaker 1: you up the end? Who can't quite see over the
Speaker 1: top from tomorrow you're in charge of the dogs?
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and of course back then there was no
Speaker 2: desex thing, so all undersex males going for each other,
Speaker 2: all undersex females going for each other. Man. Of course
Speaker 2: we all had the problems of the dingoes coming in
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've bean mayhem? Mate? How when nearly done? When
Speaker 1: early done? How does this work financially? And how can
Speaker 1: we help? Could like to what is how does it work?
Speaker 1: Like the people pay to go there?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Government supported?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 1: What is it? How is it?
Speaker 2: Well, as you guys know the old adages, we need
Speaker 2: a village to raise kids, you know, and I work
Speaker 2: in the village. We all work in the village, and
Speaker 2: we can all point the finger and we can go.
Speaker 2: Someone should do something about that, you know, like, oh
Speaker 2: my garden got completely kicked over last night, mob of
Speaker 2: kids walked past, or you know what's happening in it?
Speaker 2: Alice Springs everyone's pointing the finger and going someone should
Speaker 2: do something about that. What I'm about is solutions. So
Speaker 2: if I'm getting the kids to go and pick up rubbish,
Speaker 2: you know, if we want to go and have a
Speaker 2: swim somewhere, we'll spend an hour picking up rubbish, then
Speaker 2: we'll go for a swim. You know, it's ways about
Speaker 2: you are the solution to whatever problem is in front
Speaker 2: of you. Because I got told by a nun when
Speaker 2: I was in my bush school. I pointed the finger
Speaker 2: and I said, oh, he did this and anyway, she said,
Speaker 2: oh you've you know, she told me that one finger
Speaker 2: with one thumb was pointing up at Jesus. How can
Speaker 2: you point the finger of Jesus? But three fingers, That's
Speaker 2: the important thing. Three fingers are always pointing back at you.
Speaker 2: You know, always yourself what you can do to fix
Speaker 2: the situation before you start point the finger at someone else. So,
Speaker 2: my very long spill, there is anyone listening can help
Speaker 2: us out. And it costs a lot to do what
Speaker 2: we do. We have very very skilled staff, and we
Speaker 2: need very very skilled staff to do what we do
Speaker 2: with our young people and to get them where they
Speaker 2: need to go. We've got to take them right around
Speaker 2: the country to expand their worldview as my worldview has expanded,
Speaker 2: as I alluded to earlier. So if you can financially
Speaker 2: support us, then absolutely please do. Just go to the
Speaker 2: rough Track website, if you can come to winning of
Speaker 2: our fundraiseres throughout Sydney, or come to our shows and
Speaker 2: just support us at our shows, or get online and
Speaker 2: buy stuff that the kids have produced. And because we've
Speaker 2: got a lot of social enterprises which the kids, we
Speaker 2: try and employ the kids through and that's those core
Speaker 2: kids that I was talking about. They're not ready for
Speaker 2: the job market, but we provide jobs through them right here.
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you've got skills that you reckon a
Speaker 2: little organization that does a heck of a lot, we'll
Speaker 2: then get in contact with us. Because the big thing
Speaker 2: that we want to do this year is get our
Speaker 2: own forever farm, you know, a place that kids will
Speaker 2: always have as our home. Like many of us who
Speaker 2: have got farms, it's always home, even if we don't
Speaker 2: visit there. And what we want is to always have
Speaker 2: a touchstone for our kids to go. You know what,
Speaker 2: that's my safe place. Do they have a visit for
Speaker 2: the rest of their lives or not. They know that
Speaker 2: it's safe and it's a cure. But if we can
Speaker 2: then have our own forever farm and have tiny homes
Speaker 2: on it so the kids can actually stay there safely
Speaker 2: twenty four hours our twenty four hours a day, seven
Speaker 2: days a week, well that's that's my challenge to the
Speaker 2: village is be part of our village and help us
Speaker 2: get where we want to go and get that forever farm.
Speaker 2: And of course with land prices it costs a few
Speaker 2: million dollars. But you know, if each one of your
Speaker 2: listeners chucked in five bucks would get there real quick.
Speaker 1: We definitely would. By the way, everyone, rough Tracks, are
Speaker 1: you double F? Not ough?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: Are you double F rough Track? Mate? You're You're an inspiration.
Speaker 1: You're a great dude, and I genuinely mean that we'd
Speaker 1: love to get you back in six months or three
Speaker 1: months or whenever you can because there's so much more
Speaker 1: to learn from you. I think we're going to do something.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to do a little something I
Speaker 1: might come up with and I might do a workshop
Speaker 1: or something. We might we might we might do a
Speaker 1: little fundraiser for rough Track. Everybody, So stay tuned we're
Speaker 1: going to do something, a little something, and at the
Speaker 1: very least we're.
Speaker 2: Going absolutely amazing what being part of the village is.
Speaker 2: You know, we've got to do whatever it is. Now.
Speaker 2: I'm the one that takes the punches and the kicks,
Speaker 2: but I also get the joy of the hugs and
Speaker 2: the tears and the muner and we've all got our
Speaker 2: part to play to make sure that no kid gets
Speaker 2: left behind. And if we can live in a country
Speaker 2: that can produce such greatness, we've also got to look
Speaker 2: at the cracks and make sure that no kids fall down.
Speaker 1: On Yeah, well, mate, congrats on what you're doing. You're awesome.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you'll hear from some of my listeners jump on.
Speaker 1: Is it the Rough Track website.
Speaker 2: That website or even you know, a free and easy
Speaker 2: thing to do is saying kind words. You know, when
Speaker 2: we put on our social media on the Rough Track
Speaker 2: Facebook page or Instagram, the kids doing things, all the
Speaker 2: kids watch it. All the kids are on there, of course,
Speaker 2: and if you just say kind things and you know
Speaker 2: in sure that the kids know that people are watching
Speaker 2: and people care, that's another big way. And when the
Speaker 2: kids are all out and about it, when their bright Orange,
Speaker 2: doing community service or doing a big production or a
Speaker 2: show at any of the Royal shows in each big
Speaker 2: city in Australia, just giving them a really rapturous applause.
Speaker 2: You know that's that can make the difference in a
Speaker 2: kid's day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great, mate, stay there. We will say goodbye Affair,
Speaker 1: but for the moment. Farmer and Dave, you're a gun
Speaker 1: and we appreciate you and love the work you're doing.
Speaker 1: And thanks so much for your time and for hanging
Speaker 1: out with us on the new project.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: Thanks mate,