Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Who the hell are these sovereign citizens? What do they
Speaker 1: stand for? Why are we talking about them? And are
Speaker 1: they something we should be concerned about. Recently, two police
Speaker 1: officers were killed in Victoria, allegedly by a person who
Speaker 1: identify himself as a sovereign citizen. At the time of recording,
Speaker 1: that man is still on the run. In twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: two other police officers were shot and killed in Queensland
Speaker 1: by Gareth Train who supported the Sovereign Citizen movement. So yes,
Speaker 1: I think we should be concerned by the Sovereign Citizen
Speaker 1: movement today. I spake to Scott Man. Scott's former partner,
Speaker 1: Helen Delaney, is a co founder and self proclaimed leader
Speaker 1: of the Sovereign Citizen group Nam Dhaka Dhala australis also
Speaker 1: known as NDA. You're going to be shocked by what
Speaker 1: he has to say and what has happened to him
Speaker 1: and his children, including his concerns of the children being kidnapped.
Speaker 1: Scott now has sole custody of his children, but he's
Speaker 1: living in fear every day that they might be taken
Speaker 1: from him. It's not the way you want to live
Speaker 1: your life. Our conversation gave me a greater understanding of
Speaker 1: what the Sovereign Citizen movement is all about and the
Speaker 1: dangers we face when ideologies become extreme. It's really quite scary.
Speaker 1: Scott Murran, welcome to our Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks, Garret. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Well I'm guessing here, but I think you'd prefer to
Speaker 1: be listening to a podcast, a true crime podcast, and
Speaker 1: being the guest on a true christ Yes. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: life hasn't turned out that way, has it with things
Speaker 1: that you've been through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: We're going to be touching because your wife and a
Speaker 1: former wife, Helen Delaney, got involved in a sovereign citizen
Speaker 1: movement and that sort of your life was never the same.
Speaker 2: Following that until this day.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about it. And people would
Speaker 1: have have recent times heard of sovereign citizens coming into
Speaker 1: the narrative, recent shooting of two police officers down in
Speaker 1: Victoria with a person who identified as a sovereign citizen,
Speaker 1: And I don't know, maybe your perspective is completely different
Speaker 1: because what you've been through, But when you ago, i'd
Speaker 1: see someone who claimed to be a sovereign citizen, I'd
Speaker 1: have a bit of a chuckle and think it's all harmless.
Speaker 2: Yeah that was me at the beginning too. Yeah, they're
Speaker 2: just clowns, is what I thought. Yeah, but the further
Speaker 2: you delve into what they put online and their communication
Speaker 2: with each other, it's a very serious matter. And when
Speaker 2: you get to a point of threatening to take somebody's children,
Speaker 2: I treat that very seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely, and that's where the ideology when they
Speaker 1: start acting on their ideology, and it becomes transfixed on it,
Speaker 1: it can become problematic. Before we get into our conversation,
Speaker 1: I should clarify here your former wife, Helen Delaney, has
Speaker 1: been convicted at court for eleven counts of breaching an
Speaker 1: AVA and one count of intimidation.
Speaker 2: That's correct, Yep, that is correct.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we're going to talk about what happened to
Speaker 1: you and the journey you've been on and protecting your children,
Speaker 1: but we're also going to talk about sovereign citizens in general,
Speaker 1: and I probably should. We'll talk about like while I
Speaker 1: recently what I mentioned about the two police officers in
Speaker 1: Victoria who were murdered, and then in twenty twenty two
Speaker 1: there was two other police officers who were murdered when
Speaker 1: they were shot by a person who identified with sovereign
Speaker 1: citizen ideology. I think his name was Gareth Traine. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was in twenty twenty two. So, just as by
Speaker 1: way of a disclaimer, I need to make it very
Speaker 1: clear we're not suggesting all sovereign citizens are capable of
Speaker 1: committing such horrendous crimes or Helen. Then the nam Daka
Speaker 1: Dahalia Australias, which is the sovereign citizen.
Speaker 2: Group, it was a group that she formed, Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: That she formed for that matter of linked or would
Speaker 1: carry out crimes of that nature. So I just sort
Speaker 1: of put that on record. But I think it's worthwhile
Speaker 1: talking about crimes like that and how they are linked
Speaker 1: to people with these sovereign citizen beliefs and ideology.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I agree, because the first time I've heard about it,
Speaker 1: or the first time it really became part of my understanding,
Speaker 1: was during COVID, where people were coming out and they
Speaker 1: were pushing against the powers of the state and the
Speaker 1: lockdown laws and the mandatory vaccinations and all the type
Speaker 1: of things that people were generally concerned about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they also go under the monarch of freedom fighters
Speaker 2: because sovereign citizen is an oxymoron. You can't be a
Speaker 2: sovereign and a citizen. You'll hear them say that a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not just one group. There's a whole
Speaker 2: ranger groups that we've come across. Ye, And they just
Speaker 2: they meet online, they talk in secret chat rooms and
Speaker 2: to me, have whatever thoughts or beliefs or ideologies you want.
Speaker 2: But when you start acting on them and you start
Speaker 2: including people's children, yeah, it's game on for me.
Speaker 1: Well that's where they cross the line with the impact
Speaker 1: that it's had on you. And we're going to get
Speaker 1: deep dive into that. And you say, oxymoron about sovereign citizens.
Speaker 1: I want to when maybe we do it in part two,
Speaker 1: just you know, sort of pick apart some of the
Speaker 1: philosophies of a sovereign citizen because it doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: add up to one thing that what they're they're claiming,
Speaker 1: and then how they're living their life. So we'll have
Speaker 1: a look at that. Tell me a little bit just
Speaker 1: about your background, so people listening to the podcast understand
Speaker 1: where you can.
Speaker 2: Before this, I was just a pretty simple living sort
Speaker 2: of person. Grew up in housing commission in Globe Yep.
Speaker 2: You know, got an education there. As I mentioned to
Speaker 2: you before that you don't get in school. I think
Speaker 2: you've had people.
Speaker 1: I'm just just focusing through who would you know, because yeah, Gleb, it.
Speaker 2: Was a lot of them.
Speaker 1: It was. It was a tough, tough neighborhood to grow
Speaker 1: up on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and before it became a trendy in the western
Speaker 2: yeah suburb it was the projects, So it was a
Speaker 2: tough place to grow up.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you've identified that you wouldn't be the first
Speaker 1: guess that sat in that chair that grew up up
Speaker 1: round the globe. Okay, so that was your childhood and
Speaker 1: then into adulthood.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just sort of got wasn't that into school? So
Speaker 2: I got out of school in year ten and I
Speaker 2: started an apprenticeship. I sort of did that for a
Speaker 2: while three years, discovered girls and through the apprenticeship away
Speaker 2: and just pretty.
Speaker 1: Much make some great decisions at that age.
Speaker 2: Me and women. It's a big drama, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: just sort of have been from job to job very much. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: whatever I had to do.
Speaker 1: Now, you've had from your first wife, I understand that
Speaker 1: you had had a child, yeah, her first wife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a daughter that's twenty seven. Yeah, she's
Speaker 2: a psychologist, which has been helpful through this. And then yeah,
Speaker 2: series of failed relationships after that, some of which I
Speaker 2: was probably to blame for.
Speaker 1: Gary, Okay, let's break the hat right down. I've never
Speaker 1: had admissions like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, I understand like relationships are complicated, and yeah, they
Speaker 1: when they fall apart, that things can deteriorate rather quickly.
Speaker 1: But there's always two sides to the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, never quite like this one.
Speaker 1: No, I've got to say, like, I've made some mistakes
Speaker 1: in relationships as well, but I don't think I've gone
Speaker 1: down as bad as you have in what's happened with
Speaker 1: your relationship with Helen? Yeah, so when did you get
Speaker 1: with Helen?
Speaker 2: So I was working as a security guard YEP in Sydney,
Speaker 2: doing some very interesting work in that alone, and we
Speaker 2: just I met. I was sort of like, I'm working,
Speaker 2: you know, up until one hundred hours a week, no
Speaker 2: time to meet anybody. Didn't feel like I was going
Speaker 2: to meet my future wife on a nightclub door. And
Speaker 2: then after that I sort of just started to look
Speaker 2: into that internet dating and we clicked through that. At
Speaker 2: the time, she was a film producer, working on big
Speaker 2: stuff like Superman, The Matrix, that sort of stuff, pretty good,
Speaker 2: making quite successful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once we
Speaker 2: discovered we had a child on the way, my oldest son.
Speaker 2: She had a home up in Newcastle, so I was
Speaker 2: able to get work up there with the same company
Speaker 2: I worked for, and we went to Newcastle and I
Speaker 2: worked in the advertising business as a producer, and I
Speaker 2: was working nights so I could be daddy day care
Speaker 2: during the day. Yeah, and Newcastle beautiful spot. It was great. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I thought we'd live there forever. And then my mum,
Speaker 2: who's ninety five and still lives with me today. She
Speaker 2: was in the family home down the coast and she
Speaker 2: sort of got to a stage in life where she
Speaker 2: needed help. She didn't want to go into a nursing home,
Speaker 2: and I made a promise that, you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: do that, So we shifted down there, and shortly after,
Speaker 2: oh no, sorry, we had Grace, who I mentioned to
Speaker 2: you before we lost the child.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a spine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they didn't find out until very late in
Speaker 2: the pregnancy. So we had to go through the birth
Speaker 2: of Grace and she didn't survive that day, which was tough.
Speaker 1: A lot of trauma associated with a situation.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, very tough. First time I did counseling
Speaker 2: was kids and kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I used to believe that was all, you know, spooks
Speaker 2: and widows. But yeah, it helped me get through that.
Speaker 2: We shifted down to live with mum, sort of start fresh,
Speaker 2: and along come my third son. And after the birth
Speaker 2: of my third son, we sort of I was working,
Speaker 2: but she wanted to go back to work. She went
Speaker 2: back to work and again, I went back into the
Speaker 2: role of daddy daycare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how did you find that like it?
Speaker 2: Loved it? Yeah, yeah, loved it. Sometimes the only bloke
Speaker 2: at the park with all the mums and the stroll
Speaker 2: and stuff, But yeah I did. I loved it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's a lot said for it, isn't Yeah
Speaker 1: you've done something like that. Yeah, I know some friends
Speaker 1: that have gone down that path, and yeah I didn't
Speaker 1: have that our rewarding it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have it with my daughter. But I'm
Speaker 2: a strong believer in that tummy time. So straight after
Speaker 2: all of my children were born, I did that tummy time.
Speaker 1: Spent spending time with the kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I for me, that just gives us
Speaker 2: an unbreakable bond, which you know still there today.
Speaker 1: It's shown through. Okay. So it was a fairly every
Speaker 1: when I say average life, it was a life that
Speaker 1: you were living and a simple life, and you everything
Speaker 1: was going well at that stage.
Speaker 3: And then when did it start to So when she
Speaker 3: went back in the relationship, when she went back to work,
Speaker 3: she became a real estate agent, selling land in a subdivision.
Speaker 2: And it was just at the time real estate was
Speaker 2: really slow where we live, and then there was a
Speaker 2: boom and I think she claimed one day to have
Speaker 2: sold twelve million dollars worth of property record sales day,
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And you know, she was good
Speaker 2: at what she did. Cut from that, Yes, life was good. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and she sort of that was where it started. She
Speaker 2: wanted to get into property investing in when we bought
Speaker 2: a couple of properties like I mentioned too before, and
Speaker 2: that was out of equity within my family home, having
Speaker 2: lost a home earlier in life through another interesting relationship
Speaker 2: which was right next door to the property that I
Speaker 2: now live in.
Speaker 1: Scott Maybe we should talk off camera. I had a
Speaker 1: tendency to and I should reveal this, But anyway, I'm
Speaker 1: asking you a lot of questions. I had a tendency
Speaker 1: to buy property in the in the peak and selling
Speaker 1: the slump. And I worked out if I had adjusted
Speaker 1: my relationships by two years, I would have been buying
Speaker 1: in the slump and selling in the I would have
Speaker 1: a lot more money.
Speaker 2: From when I was thirty till today. Financially, I have
Speaker 2: just made a mess of my life in terms of
Speaker 2: property and women.
Speaker 1: Well, well it happens, so yeah, I'm certainly not sitting
Speaker 1: here in judgment of you, I wanted to talk. We've
Speaker 1: got a sense of the relationship at this stage. Now
Speaker 1: i'll talk specifically about Helen a little bit more detail
Speaker 1: about it, but before we do, just so that our
Speaker 1: listeners and can get a sense of what we're talking about,
Speaker 1: because she, how would I put this, became rather notorious
Speaker 1: is probably the best word. When she featured on a
Speaker 1: YouTube sensation when she's been arrested by police and refused
Speaker 1: to abide by their decisions. And I just want to
Speaker 1: play that, and then we'll talk about Helen in more detail, sure,
Speaker 1: because this will give people a sense of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about. I should clarify this is after you've separated
Speaker 1: from her. This is down the track when she's very
Speaker 1: much embroiled and caught up in the sovereign citizen.
Speaker 4: Okay, on this land, I'll look at arrest you absolutely
Speaker 4: what we are not driving, We are traveling. You guys
Speaker 4: don't even know what you'se are on about. I need
Speaker 4: your most senior, most JEU. We'll bring your most senior
Speaker 4: sergeant down.
Speaker 1: Sir.
Speaker 4: You prode details, you will be arrested. We don't have
Speaker 4: to give you any details. There is any you will
Speaker 4: commit offense, You'll be liable for it. It is absolutely trespassed.
Speaker 4: You've got no jurisdiction here, Bro, you're committing offense by
Speaker 4: standing here, Yes you are. You don't know, you don't
Speaker 4: have any jurisdiction on this on this land. I'll look
Speaker 4: at arrest you absolutely, man. I would love to just
Speaker 4: get you one on one.
Speaker 1: Drive you.
Speaker 2: To the vehicle under arrest.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what we what we just watched there? Helen
Speaker 1: was the driver of the vehicle. Police have stopped her.
Speaker 1: The aggressive man's voice you can hear that was a
Speaker 1: passenger in the in the vehicle at the time. Helen
Speaker 1: was stopped and claimed that the police or you know
Speaker 1: in summary, that had no authority over her because she
Speaker 1: identified as a sovereign sovereign citizen. Were you shocked when
Speaker 1: you saw that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the person that I spent ten years
Speaker 2: of my life with and had three children to. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a completely different person.
Speaker 1: Because I remember remember seeing seeing that and it sawt
Speaker 1: of where it goes from a little bit funny to
Speaker 1: a little bit more serious. Now she was arrested on that.
Speaker 1: I think there were some warrants in existence, and I
Speaker 1: know the police come under criticism and ripping the window
Speaker 1: out because what we saw on the video was the
Speaker 1: police officer actually ripped the front driver's window out and
Speaker 1: smashed it. But what the police to do in that
Speaker 1: situation if someone's not recognizing their power, they can't they
Speaker 1: don't know what's in the car. They can't just person
Speaker 1: person drive off. So that's sort of for I played
Speaker 1: that because I want people to understand the difference between
Speaker 1: what Helen was when you first met her, or the
Speaker 1: type of person that she was, to what she evolved.
Speaker 2: Into essentially two different people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what Helen's got involved in. How long
Speaker 1: were you guys together?
Speaker 2: Ten years?
Speaker 1: Ten years all up? And when you separated? When was that?
Speaker 1: How long you separated after ten years or were before then? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Just before ten years we separated and it was amicable
Speaker 2: at the start, fifty to fifty custody of the boys.
Speaker 2: We didn't go to court.
Speaker 1: You're doing the seven days on, seven days off type.
Speaker 2: Scene, how I was, Yeah, Yeah, and the children are happy.
Speaker 2: They went to the same We lived a suburb apart.
Speaker 2: Everything was fine until I believe Christmas. I couldn't recall
Speaker 2: a year, but they basically the children were eight and
Speaker 2: eleven I think at the time, and the kids come
Speaker 2: to me on Christmas Eve I believe it was, and said, oh,
Speaker 2: we're moving to Sydney and I said, that's news to me.
Speaker 2: So that was kind of the beginning of where we
Speaker 2: went off the edge of the cliff.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So up until this point it was an
Speaker 1: amicable separation.
Speaker 2: Hady courts, property finances. Everything we did what they call
Speaker 2: is a binding financial agreement. Yeah yeah, and yeah, we're all.
Speaker 1: Happy and living close proximity, so the kids' lives weren't
Speaker 1: messed up too much prior to that separation. And something
Speaker 1: around the time of the separation, Helen started to become
Speaker 1: in her mind a property guru is my reading of it.
Speaker 1: Also started listening to the self help but what's his name,
Speaker 1: Matte So.
Speaker 2: It was Gary Vanderchuk. Yeah, he's yeah, I think another
Speaker 2: one of Listen Jane Clarkson something, and she started to
Speaker 2: really push that towards me. You know, we could be
Speaker 2: sitting on a yacht in the Greek Isles and doing
Speaker 2: this and that's people that know me. That's not me, Gary,
Speaker 2: I win Lotto. I'm probably shouting the boys down the
Speaker 2: pub I'm not sitting at a super yacht. So yeah,
Speaker 2: she became obsessed with she wanted five properties in five years.
Speaker 2: As I mentioned to her before, she we had two properties.
Speaker 2: They were out of the equity in my family home.
Speaker 2: And I just wasn't going to do five properties in
Speaker 2: five years. I'm a bit more risk averse than that.
Speaker 2: And what I said to her, well, what she said
Speaker 2: to me was, you know, you're a glass half full person.
Speaker 2: You don't want anything better in life. And I was like,
Speaker 2: when you met me, this is the person I was.
Speaker 2: You're not going to change me into something I'm not.
Speaker 2: I don't want to beat it rich and famous.
Speaker 1: You can see how that would wear thin on the
Speaker 1: relationship or put cracks in the relationship. But I get
Speaker 1: the sense, and I'm asking, I'm not saying, but the
Speaker 1: sense that I get is that she really bought into it.
Speaker 1: I liken it too. You know when m Way salesman
Speaker 1: used to come around and a friend had get caught
Speaker 1: up in it and there yeah, suddenly, yeah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: going to take over the world and this is the
Speaker 1: best thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Interestingly, she took me along to one of the meetings
Speaker 2: and we were sitting there and I thought they were
Speaker 2: rushes all there on one side. They're in the dark,
Speaker 2: and these people were sort of saying, oh, listen, we're
Speaker 2: gonna we can do this for you, and then you've
Speaker 2: got to buy a tape off them, you know, and
Speaker 2: then if you pay a bit more, you're on the
Speaker 2: platinum level. And as they turn the lights on, all
Speaker 2: these ushes were standing there with not coffee and tea,
Speaker 2: they were standing there with FPOs machines. And he goes
Speaker 2: the first fifty people, you know, we'll get this steel
Speaker 2: for four eight hundred dollars or something, and I think
Speaker 2: I even put my hand on a leg and I
Speaker 2: just said, we're not doing that, and she goes, I
Speaker 2: already got the early bird price. I've gone and spent
Speaker 2: four and a half greend or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, but this is all going in the
Speaker 1: whole psychology of how people get caught up in ideologies,
Speaker 1: because I've been to and it was over in Western Australia.
Speaker 1: For the life of me, I can't remember what the
Speaker 1: name of it was, but it was on the weekend Saturday,
Speaker 1: and it was all people up there saying this, you know,
Speaker 1: the world's roy so you can have an I don't
Speaker 1: think and if you just believe and exactly the same thing,
Speaker 1: not in seeing there with the lights off, but people
Speaker 1: ready to sign up if you get in early. And
Speaker 1: I watched people get up and literally run to the
Speaker 1: air where.
Speaker 2: You know, like a rock concert. They were actually knocking
Speaker 2: each other over to get over there and put the
Speaker 2: credit card on the machine.
Speaker 1: I found it entertaining and it was slightly humorous, but
Speaker 1: it was also it shocked me. But I think there
Speaker 1: in lies where people might be susceptible to getting caught
Speaker 1: up in the ideology of a sovereign citizen. They got
Speaker 1: that susceptibility to get into their mind and go, that's
Speaker 1: what I'm missing, that's what I'm looking for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to me, I'm adding up, you know, five
Speaker 2: grand per twenty people, and then you know, the first
Speaker 2: fifty I'm going, this is a pretty good earn for
Speaker 2: a day, you know. And then we went to the
Speaker 2: Sydney one that was around the country, all major capitals,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, no, this is not I'm
Speaker 2: not doing this. That's when I started to get the
Speaker 2: feelings of losing the family home. Something mild men worked
Speaker 2: every weekend to get us out of housing commission and
Speaker 2: give us a better life.
Speaker 1: Understandable.
Speaker 2: So I wasn't going to lose that, hay, And you.
Speaker 1: Get it drummed into you that you've got to have
Speaker 1: a roof over your head. One is she tripped over
Speaker 1: to America pursuing this type of stuff as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was when I called quits on
Speaker 2: the relationship. So she booked a trip to America. Good
Speaker 2: friend to mine did some research and said she's paid
Speaker 2: like four or five grand for a ticket to this
Speaker 2: three day event, and off she went, you know, And
Speaker 2: as she went out the door that morning, I said,
Speaker 2: when you get back, relationships finished, will sort out what
Speaker 2: we have to do with the kids in the properties.
Speaker 2: But I'm not going on this journey with you. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: So the separation then, so it was her life was
Speaker 1: heading in a different direction. You wanted to keep the
Speaker 1: life that you would work, simple life, and okay, so
Speaker 1: you separate. So I understand that. Then it comes to
Speaker 1: that Christmas Eve where the kids have said we're moving,
Speaker 1: which is a devastating thing.
Speaker 2: Like the timing was incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but like that is where that's where people
Speaker 1: lose their shit over, Like when the kids have been
Speaker 1: moved in the state or a long way away when
Speaker 1: they've been living close and then's yeah, it doesn't do
Speaker 1: anyone any good.
Speaker 2: Now, and to put your clear on that go. What
Speaker 2: happened was my son asked me to go and talk
Speaker 2: to his mother who was next door, and say, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to go.
Speaker 1: How I was his son at the time.
Speaker 2: He was around ten or eleven, okay to their friends. No,
Speaker 2: he was going into year six at primary school, you know,
Speaker 2: formal at the end, all his friends that sort of.
Speaker 2: He didn't want to leave, and she basically told me
Speaker 2: I was being abusive. Was sitting at a table having
Speaker 2: a conversation. My son was present, and I said, look,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to leave. This is not my home
Speaker 2: or walk outside. It was a mother's house at the time,
Speaker 2: and she convinced my son to stay with her for
Speaker 2: the night. The next morning he said, we're going to Sydney.
Speaker 2: I've changed my mind. I was like, mate, that's a
Speaker 2: big change. But not wanting to have the kids torn
Speaker 2: between mum and.
Speaker 1: Dad, I understand it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just said, you know, if you're going to go,
Speaker 2: then when you go. If they don't want to be
Speaker 2: there they come back.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That was probably the first mistake I made, big mistake, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because it was a number of days or a period
Speaker 1: of time before you saw or heard from the kids again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I saw them sporadically over that time. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it was fortnightly, sometimes it was monthly. But also not
Speaker 2: wanting to upset the kids. They were put into forty teams.
Speaker 2: They love their footing, and they were you know, they
Speaker 2: had a game on or there was always something or
Speaker 2: I was working.
Speaker 1: So when the kid and we're talking, what three hours
Speaker 1: away from where you were living.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, they moved to Dremoyne, Sydney.
Speaker 1: So it's something that you couldn't facilitate, not feasible for
Speaker 1: them to play football up there and be at yours
Speaker 1: on the.
Speaker 2: Week Yeah, otherwise are going to spend every weekend in
Speaker 2: the car. Yeah, and the youngest one doesn't like sitting
Speaker 2: in the car for more than ten minutes. So it's
Speaker 2: a big ass. So I had to take a bit
Speaker 2: of a backward step there for a while.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what was the next thing that happened in
Speaker 1: this situation?
Speaker 2: Then one easter a bit further down the track, the
Speaker 2: kids were getting harder to contact. This is around the
Speaker 2: time of the Lismore floods.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what period of time has expired from when
Speaker 1: they moved to Sydney to when it was getting harder
Speaker 1: to contact?
Speaker 2: Someone was in year six and then went into year seven,
Speaker 2: so we're talking within twelve months.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I found out they were up in Lizmore the
Speaker 2: liz More floods. They told me on the phone. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm helping, we're helping to get money.
Speaker 1: You thought they were still living at Sydney.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no knowledge.
Speaker 1: So they're up at the Lizmore floods yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the person that's in the car with Helen there,
Speaker 2: he's been sort of a pivotal role in where she's
Speaker 2: been at times.
Speaker 1: You referred to that. That was the voice that we
Speaker 1: heard when Helen was arrested on the video. So he's
Speaker 1: been a fixture in her life certainly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, So your kids are up in liz Moore around
Speaker 1: the time of the Lizmore floods and what were they
Speaker 1: doing up there?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Brion might have found out a lot
Speaker 2: of this down the track, but they were going around
Speaker 2: getting donations and things like that. For to help people
Speaker 2: out in the angerble camp. Yeah, that's where that person
Speaker 2: we've mentioned before was living. And the kids we're living,
Speaker 2: sometimes sleeping in their car, sometimes in tin shacks.
Speaker 1: How old were the kids then.
Speaker 2: So still around that same age of eight or nine
Speaker 2: years of age, and then the eldest one was about
Speaker 2: eleven twelve.
Speaker 1: Okay. Now I can only imagine from your point of
Speaker 1: view how concerning it would be that you're losing touch
Speaker 1: with your kids. I'm assuming you didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of direct contact with Helen at that time.
Speaker 2: Not a lot, just emails mainly and the odd text message.
Speaker 2: But I quickly worked out it wasn't a lot of
Speaker 2: truth in what she was saying was happening and what
Speaker 2: was actually happening.
Speaker 1: And in that period of time, did you get the
Speaker 1: weekends with the kids or school holidays?
Speaker 2: Yeah? On and off. The kids come to me one Christmas,
Speaker 2: this is around the time of the Canbra protests. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and we met sort of halfway between Camber and where
Speaker 2: I live. The kids got in the car Gary and
Speaker 2: they smelt that badly that I did the fifty k
Speaker 2: trip back home of all four windows down and chucked
Speaker 2: them in the shower as soon as I got them home.
Speaker 1: Right now, when you say it smelt badly, as in
Speaker 1: they hadn't been bathing.
Speaker 2: Just any somebody that's sleeping, sleeping rough Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: they looked terrible. They didn't look like my kids.
Speaker 1: How did you feel as a father there?
Speaker 2: I was gutted, Yeah, and remembering that they're not in
Speaker 2: my custody yet at that stage. So that's when I'm
Speaker 2: starting to think was.
Speaker 1: There any order? Was there any order at that stage
Speaker 1: of the custody or it's still yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: No there was, there was none. So the kids appeared
Speaker 2: in a news clip when the fires happened in Old
Speaker 2: Parliament House.
Speaker 1: Okay, now we're talking about the protests at the Parliament
Speaker 1: House in the tenth Embassy. Is that the process we're
Speaker 1: talking about when there were attempts to set Old Parliament
Speaker 1: a light or that's how it was reported something?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as I'm sure you from the photo I
Speaker 2: sent you, my two boys were right there front and center.
Speaker 1: So how did you discover that?
Speaker 2: I believe it was my daughter called me and said
Speaker 2: because I'd actually made contact with Helen's mum, who I
Speaker 2: got on very well with, and I said, I don't
Speaker 2: want the children going to Canberra. Yeah, I can't see
Speaker 2: him to talk any sense into her. I don't want
Speaker 2: them at the protests. They're becoming violent. She said she's
Speaker 2: not there, and I said, I've just had a phone
Speaker 2: call that the kids are there, you know, and I
Speaker 2: remember the words very clearly Gary. I said to her,
Speaker 2: I'm going to take those children away from her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and okay, so I can see you concern caught
Speaker 1: up in that environment. I then picking them up and yeah,
Speaker 1: as you describe, smelling obviously not being looked after properly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so what do you do in that situation? Mat?
Speaker 2: I went straight into the nearest police station and said,
Speaker 2: my kids are in Canberra at this stuff. How do
Speaker 2: I get them back? And I'm sure you probably remember
Speaker 2: from policing days nobody likes being on the front desk.
Speaker 1: Would have been ducking for ducking for cover.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so pretty much got what can we do?
Speaker 2: Contact the Federal police. So I did that and they
Speaker 2: said we're aware that there's the kids were actually staying
Speaker 2: at that time in the ten embassy down there. More
Speaker 2: and more stuff was, you know, people are ringing me
Speaker 2: and saying I'm seeing your kids on TV and things
Speaker 2: like that. It just got to a I started the panic,
Speaker 2: I guess, so I wrung the federal police. They said, yeah,
Speaker 2: we were aware of these kids in amongst this. What
Speaker 2: do you want us to do? Just storm on in
Speaker 2: there and pick your kids up? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, who else do you go to if you can't
Speaker 1: get to the police? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to make clear from the start, Garrier,
Speaker 2: I'm not here to bash the police, the local police
Speaker 2: and the police that I've dealt with throughout this, and
Speaker 2: I've dealt with a lot. Yeah, have been fantastic. I've
Speaker 2: had police that have been off duty coming reach me
Speaker 2: in the shops multiple times and just ask how the
Speaker 2: boys are going, because they've been on the journey with us,
Speaker 2: they know how crazy it's gotten. And yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: You know, how did you make the reconnection with the kids?
Speaker 1: How did you get the boys? Boys back?
Speaker 2: So after that, I went to the nearest lawyer's office
Speaker 2: in town Lucky. I stumbled into a good one and
Speaker 2: I said, what do I do? This is what's going on.
Speaker 2: They said, you know, have you got the money for
Speaker 2: It's expensive, as lawyers are, and I said, yeah, I'll
Speaker 2: find the money. You know, what do we do? How
Speaker 2: do we How do I get my children back? I
Speaker 2: was told pretty much it's very difficult, particularly if you're
Speaker 2: a dad trying to get the kids back from the mum.
Speaker 2: And I did an initial interview again. At this stage
Speaker 2: I only knew little bits and pieces. I didn't know
Speaker 2: a lot. And then fast forward from there to east
Speaker 2: of school holidays. The two boys come to stay with me,
Speaker 2: and my eldest son said, Dad, I'm not going back.
Speaker 1: How old was he at this.
Speaker 2: Stage he would have been twelve and a half. Their
Speaker 2: adounts he was in high school, first year of high school.
Speaker 2: So this is where it gets a bit dark every
Speaker 2: but he said to me what was going on. He's
Speaker 2: a super intelligent young kid, so in order to prove
Speaker 2: to me what was going on, he was taking photos
Speaker 2: of everything. He was storing, like dropping pins on maps.
Speaker 2: We stayed here, we slept here in the car, We
Speaker 2: did this sort of thing, and he said, if you
Speaker 2: make me go back, I've got my bus pass. Instead
Speaker 2: of getting on the bus pass to go to school,
Speaker 2: I'm going to use it to go to Central station.
Speaker 2: I know the train timetables. I've saved some money up,
Speaker 2: I'm going to jump on a train and I'll keep
Speaker 2: doing that until you let me stay. He even looked
Speaker 2: up this how smart as he looked up and worked
Speaker 2: out where the phone box was out the front, and
Speaker 2: he said, I know, I've I ring you at ten
Speaker 2: o'clock at night from that phone box. You'll turn up.
Speaker 2: So he had a lot going on in his mind,
Speaker 2: and too much for a twelve year old.
Speaker 1: Want your kid's going through that, But good on him
Speaker 1: to see, yea that he needed to get get away.
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, so you're presented with that, what do
Speaker 1: you do? And I asked this genuinely because it's such
Speaker 1: a difficult situation to find yourself in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, mate, I just I'm a strong believer in gut instinct,
Speaker 2: So I just whether the things I thought things were
Speaker 2: right or wrong at the time, I went off what
Speaker 2: my gut told me to do. A little interesting side
Speaker 2: story is that my son went fishing at the local
Speaker 2: wharf and a kid was intimidating him. He was trying
Speaker 2: to pick up his gear and get out of there.
Speaker 2: Quit he dropped the phone with all the evidence in
Speaker 2: the water. It was a stormy day. You couldn't see
Speaker 2: in the bottom of the water. I'm thinking, of great,
Speaker 2: we've lost a lot. As the lawyers were telling me,
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of stuff that will help
Speaker 2: in there. So I went to work and I was
Speaker 2: telling the boys at work about it. And when the
Speaker 2: boys said, I know, guy, that's a diver. When you
Speaker 2: see you'll go and have a look. I says, it's
Speaker 2: been in the water overnight, there's been a storm. He goes,
Speaker 2: you can't, can't to give it a go. Thank god
Speaker 2: he did, so I get I call this young kid up.
Speaker 2: He goes down and closes the wharf off. Whether that
Speaker 2: was legal or not, I don't know, and does a
Speaker 2: grid search in probably five foot of water back and
Speaker 2: forwards with his hands. He said he had no visibility,
Speaker 2: couldn't find the phone. I said, thanks for trying. You
Speaker 2: know it's going to sling him some cash. And he
Speaker 2: said what color was it again? And I said green.
Speaker 2: I'm color blind, Gary, so I'm guessing colors. What happened
Speaker 2: was my son was still there with me. He turned
Speaker 2: around and said, Dad, look back of the phone case
Speaker 2: is white. The diver said, give me a second. He
Speaker 2: goes down and what he thought was a bit of
Speaker 2: rubbish lodged in the barnacles on the side of that wharf.
Speaker 2: It was my son's phone, So you know, the universe
Speaker 2: helped us a bit there. But we took that phone
Speaker 2: to her phone fixed place and they were able to
Speaker 2: abstract extract all of.
Speaker 1: The information information. Okay, well that that would have helped.
Speaker 1: So you've got evidence that the way the children have
Speaker 1: been treated in their life. You've engaged a solicitor. What
Speaker 1: is the next step the family law court?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I was told to go hard early.
Speaker 2: I had Initially I had a family law solicitor. Then
Speaker 2: they said, no, you're not a specialist. That specialist then
Speaker 2: said we're going to need a barrister as well. And
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, he goes your bank account and the family car,
Speaker 2: whatever I can get rid of.
Speaker 1: It's horrendous. It's horrendous.
Speaker 2: How Yeah, but how do you put a price on
Speaker 2: your children?
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So what happened then was we had what they call
Speaker 2: it an initial hearing and going back in the story,
Speaker 2: what happened was my youngest son wasn't sure whether he
Speaker 2: wanted to stay. So I made the decision again one
Speaker 2: I regret to let him go back to his mother.
Speaker 2: So you can imagine how that went. When I'm supposed
Speaker 2: to be dropping two children back, I dropped one back.
Speaker 2: He jumps out of the carr and says, my brother's
Speaker 2: not coming back. This what's happened? I left there. This
Speaker 2: was up in Sydney. I went to my now wife's place,
Speaker 2: and shortly after I get a phone call from the
Speaker 2: cops that are looking for a child that's kidnapped, a
Speaker 2: child that I've kidnapped. I said, that's not the case,
Speaker 2: my son. I've been a little bit old. By this
Speaker 2: stage is a bit cloudy, but basically I was told
Speaker 2: that children can sort of vote with their feet by
Speaker 2: the time they're around fourteen. I think we're edging up
Speaker 2: towards that. And yeah, that just started what's now becoming
Speaker 2: a nightmare.
Speaker 1: And so, okay, so there's complaints. I'm assuming from Helen
Speaker 1: that the child's been kidnapped, and yeah, how does it
Speaker 1: feel been accused of kidnapping your kids?
Speaker 2: Terrible? Yeah, you know, I've been accused of a number
Speaker 2: of things, but genocide.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you been accused of genocide?
Speaker 2: The genocide? Yeah? Alienation, parental alienation, yeah, just.
Speaker 1: And these all the type of allegations that came against
Speaker 1: you from Helen and whoever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what I'd like to point to Gary and
Speaker 2: I had police say it to me, is that in
Speaker 2: the nearly four years this has been going on, there
Speaker 2: has not been a nasty text message from me. Ye,
Speaker 2: any allegation I've made, I've been able to back up
Speaker 2: with facts and yeah, it's not it's not good, but
Speaker 2: I've developed a pretty thick skin through this.
Speaker 1: It's a smart way the plant Scott. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people make this mistaken, especially blokes react with
Speaker 1: anger and frustration. Then it comes back to buy it.
Speaker 1: So if you can take a step back, keep the
Speaker 1: emotion out of it as hard as it is, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's beneficial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can tell you I did a lot of
Speaker 2: soul surging through this. And I don't say this lightly,
Speaker 2: but I asked myself where how far I'm prepared to go?
Speaker 2: And I'm not somebody that makes threats. I don't believe.
Speaker 2: Don't do what you're not prepared to carry out. But
Speaker 2: in the case of what those people have put myself
Speaker 2: and my family through, I'm prepared to open the gates
Speaker 2: to hell and drag them in there with me, simple
Speaker 2: as that.
Speaker 1: I understand that from a father's point of view. Okay,
Speaker 1: your nightmare is starting to play out. Yeah, just break
Speaker 1: it down what you've gone through, because I know it's
Speaker 1: been a hell of a.
Speaker 2: So what happened was we returned home Somewhere shortly after that,
Speaker 2: the courts decided that the boys couldn't be separated. So
Speaker 2: what they did was put both the boys with me.
Speaker 2: At this stage, the youngest son had been turned against
Speaker 2: the eldest son, which is hard to watch.
Speaker 1: What what what sort of things in what way?
Speaker 2: So he was told his brother was a snitch, that
Speaker 2: he'd caused the family break up. I found out the
Speaker 2: change of heart to move to Sydney was that the
Speaker 2: boys were told that they mum was going to sell
Speaker 2: all of their stuff, you know, kids stuff, PlayStation Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: And you know, like I said, the oldest one was
Speaker 2: worried that I wouldn't believe him. I was going to
Speaker 2: send him back. And his fear was, you know, if
Speaker 2: I tell Dad all of this has been going on,
Speaker 2: I'm going to mean a lot of trouble. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've got the kids.
Speaker 2: So what happened was always in the Narra at the
Speaker 2: lawyer's office, and they said go and get your son.
Speaker 2: My son was in Sydney, his mother was in the
Speaker 2: next street, and three and a half hours away on
Speaker 2: a Friday afternoon in traffic. So yeah, I did what
Speaker 2: I did to get up there in time. When I
Speaker 2: get there, I noticed not only Helen there, but a
Speaker 2: couple of the chaps, one of the chaps we've mentioned
Speaker 2: before and another one. And I was informed by the
Speaker 2: school that they'd made several attempts to get in and
Speaker 2: get my son.
Speaker 1: So when just to clarify, the person that we mentioned before,
Speaker 1: was a person identifying as a sovereign citizen was in
Speaker 1: the car with Helen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually further than that was identifying as a
Speaker 2: law enforcement officer. You've soon in the.
Speaker 1: Payork and you've traveled from the South Coast up to
Speaker 1: up to Sydney to pick your younger child up. When
Speaker 1: you've got to the got to the school that the
Speaker 1: schools informed you that Helen and.
Speaker 2: Three other two other blokes.
Speaker 1: Two blokes have been there and trying to retrieve him.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, against according junction. So it was an injunction
Speaker 2: made that day preventing her from going to the school.
Speaker 1: How did the school handle it?
Speaker 2: So backtracking again, I wasn't down as a contact at
Speaker 2: the school, so when she put the kids into that school,
Speaker 2: they weren't aware.
Speaker 1: So you had no rights or powers you.
Speaker 2: Can have like first second and I believe a third contact. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I believe I was the third contact. But there was
Speaker 2: no phone number. So when my kids weren't attending school
Speaker 2: and they were going to list more and stuff, their
Speaker 2: attendance was somewhere around the fifty percent mark. I was
Speaker 2: unaware of that. They yeah, they weren't telling me that
Speaker 2: the school hadn't called me. I thought everything was going
Speaker 2: along rosie for them. You know, they seemed to enjoy
Speaker 2: living in Sydney, and yeah, then I find that out
Speaker 2: and I've you know, Principal's got my son in the
Speaker 2: school and told me to get up there and get
Speaker 2: him all on the way there. When I've seen these guys,
Speaker 2: I thought I better ring the cops. I don't want
Speaker 2: to have a punch on in front of my son
Speaker 2: out in the front of a primary school. It's not
Speaker 2: a good look. So I called the cops. They turned up.
Speaker 2: They met me in the side street and I said
Speaker 2: how is this going to work? And apparently I was
Speaker 2: informed by the school at once. Obviously once he gets
Speaker 2: to the edge of the school property, he's not the
Speaker 2: school's problem. And I just could see that going pair shaped.
Speaker 2: So I was in communication with this principle I'd never met,
Speaker 2: you know, who was taking a big risk in doing
Speaker 2: what he was doing. But he was, you know, he'd
Speaker 2: been in communication with the boys are given like independent
Speaker 2: children's lawyers, and they look after their journey through the
Speaker 2: courts and their interest. Yeah, so I don't know it
Speaker 2: was that person. Somebody had spoken to the school and
Speaker 2: they're aware that he wasn't to go home with mum. Initially,
Speaker 2: if she was told she could take some stuff and
Speaker 2: say goodbye. But because she espoused the sovereign citizen ideologies
Speaker 2: during the court, she was preventing by injunction and she
Speaker 2: doesn't do no Gary.
Speaker 1: So the sovereign citizen stuff started to come out. She
Speaker 1: was very much embttered in.
Speaker 2: That blue system ideology at that stage. Yeah, right in
Speaker 2: the thick of it.
Speaker 1: Now, the group that she was involved in, do you
Speaker 1: want to tell us a little bit to or as
Speaker 1: I understand that CO found that the group that referred
Speaker 1: to as NDA. Do you want to tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in Darker dalai Estralla so I think I'm
Speaker 2: pronouncing it right. Was a group that they formed whilst
Speaker 2: she was on the run, and they were basically offering
Speaker 2: a life to people outside of the life the rest
Speaker 2: of us live, you know, in the community we live,
Speaker 2: and they were recruiting at the time. I think up
Speaker 2: through NRANG somewhere up north there somewhat some of the
Speaker 2: footage I saw of that was the hell and I
Speaker 2: knew that, like, you know, if you had friends around
Speaker 2: or a dinner party or something, she would take over
Speaker 2: the dinner party. So I saw that part of her
Speaker 2: personality within it. The stuff she was talking about was
Speaker 2: completely new to me at that stage. I hadn't researched
Speaker 2: any of it, and I just found it difficult to watch.
Speaker 2: I had both of the boys in my custody, and
Speaker 2: what she did, I believe has formed this group to
Speaker 2: try and take the boys back and garner support.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to we're going to break down all
Speaker 1: the things that happened to you. And it's quite quite
Speaker 1: frightening what took place. But just the NDA group and
Speaker 1: this is. I did a bit of research on it too,
Speaker 1: just trying to get a sense of it. And this
Speaker 1: is how it's described. Positions itself as a movement reclaiming
Speaker 1: indigenous sovereignty and customary law governance over Australia, challenging the
Speaker 1: existing governmental authority and fostering the communal peaceful living based
Speaker 1: on the ancestral traditions and natural law. So that's a
Speaker 1: narrative in which they describe that in itself sounds relatively
Speaker 1: and there's an alignment to indigenous, the indigenous sovereignty and
Speaker 1: all that, But it's a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 2: Isn't Yeah, it is, Yeah, And you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: happy with the fact that they aligned it with the indigenous. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what words to use for that, Gary,
Speaker 2: but it's just she's not indigenous. Yeah, my children aren't indigenous.
Speaker 2: She claims they are. I've been told that you can
Speaker 2: be invited into a tribe through an elder. I don't
Speaker 2: know if that's happened or not. I just don't believe
Speaker 2: if you're not indigenous, don't claim you are. Well, it turns.
Speaker 1: By going down that path that claims a little bit
Speaker 1: of legitimacy, I would suggest by aligning to Indigenous issues
Speaker 1: and there would be people that are sympathetic to that
Speaker 1: type of thing. I've just further details, and again because
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking in depth about this organization,
Speaker 1: so I think it's worthwhile probably further detail about it.
Speaker 1: Organization that sovereignty based on Indigenous customary tribal law, declaring
Speaker 1: itself the lawful authority over the land unofficially known as Australia.
Speaker 1: It promotes the idea that purporting Australian government is illegitimate
Speaker 1: and has ordered it to stand down. So let's just
Speaker 1: the Australian government is illegitimate and has ordered it to
Speaker 1: stand down, urging people to recognize themselves as self governing
Speaker 1: under ancestral laws and unity with a demilitarized zone. The
Speaker 1: group operates the Superior Court of the People of Namdhaka
Speaker 1: Dahalis Australias, a court adhering to ancient law Speltre adjudicated
Speaker 1: by senior law elders, and seeks to establish peace, harmony
Speaker 1: and respect for natural and ancestral law among the land's
Speaker 1: original bloodline descendants and others who choose to join the
Speaker 1: communal sovereignty. Now there's a lot in that. The things
Speaker 1: that jump out at me, the things that, yeah, the
Speaker 1: Australian government is illegitimate, and the fact that they the
Speaker 1: group operates the Superior Court of the People. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: a concern, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've even heard claims to be above the
Speaker 2: High Court of Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've got the two men and Helen out
Speaker 1: the school. You've called the cops. Yeah, you're in contact
Speaker 1: with the principal. And did you manage to get the
Speaker 1: hand over?
Speaker 3: Did you?
Speaker 2: The cops turned up and got called off on an
Speaker 2: urgent job. Yeah, so, no cops. It was now dark
Speaker 2: and just before I got my son, the cops and
Speaker 2: other lot of cops arrived. I'd made several phone calls
Speaker 2: and while they were talking to Helen and her mates,
Speaker 2: the principal slipped my son out a side gate. You've
Speaker 2: got to imagine he hasn't seen me for quite some time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he doesn't even know why I'm there.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So I'm having to play as I've had to do
Speaker 2: a lot lot through this.
Speaker 1: And wouldn't under surprise and the call order or that
Speaker 1: surprise Dad's here.
Speaker 2: You're coming to my place for the weekend. Yeah, how
Speaker 2: did that.
Speaker 1: Go down between you and him?
Speaker 2: Well, if you're familiar with the Dukes a hazard, that's
Speaker 2: pretty much how I drove to get out of Sydney. Yeah,
Speaker 2: flat stick and then kind of made it like a
Speaker 2: bit of a game for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just did not want any confrontation in front of him.
Speaker 2: We get him down, and then the next day we
Speaker 2: have to go and get him a school uniform to
Speaker 2: start at school. So I left my oldest son in
Speaker 2: the house with my mother. We took him to the shops,
Speaker 2: which is we call it town. It's the nearest town
Speaker 2: and it was probably thirty five minute drive. We're at
Speaker 2: the shops and my youngest son rings and he's petrified.
Speaker 2: He said, mums here trying to get him in the house.
Speaker 2: I said, call Triple zero. He said, I've called them
Speaker 2: and they've told me don't open the door law until
Speaker 2: you get here. As you'll find through through this, there's
Speaker 2: what I believes two versions of the truth. There's the
Speaker 2: truth as I see it and I lived it, and
Speaker 2: there's what Helen Delaney says and her claims she wasn't
Speaker 2: trying to get into the house for me, for my
Speaker 2: son to go into. It's, like I said, a smart kid.
Speaker 2: He took his grandmother, who's pretty frail, and himself into
Speaker 2: the only room in the house. I had a locking door,
Speaker 2: locked the door and called Triple zero. I beat the
Speaker 2: police to the house that day, convinced him to open
Speaker 2: the door. Shortly after they turned up, Helen wasn't there,
Speaker 2: and then she returned while they were there, and I
Speaker 2: think that was the first time she was arrested. She
Speaker 2: was claiming she had court orders to have the kids.
Speaker 1: And these claims. Is that in keeping with that she
Speaker 1: doesn't recognize the law, our law of the land and
Speaker 1: she's got her own law with.
Speaker 2: The Yeah, the the orders that cost me just shy
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars have put in place and a
Speaker 2: lot of stress. Yeah, they're void in her mind, they're void. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they don't exist.
Speaker 1: It's hard to argue or being in conflict with someone
Speaker 1: that's got that type of attitude. You know, like if
Speaker 1: someone once said to me, if you're arguing with an idiot, too,
Speaker 1: idiots are arguing. Yes, it certainly comes in the play.
Speaker 1: How do you this person's not going to abide by
Speaker 1: the court ruling because in their fanciful mind, the court
Speaker 1: doesn't apply to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. And literally all I have then to
Speaker 2: protect my children is a piece of paper.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, Well you're painting a pretty scary scenario
Speaker 1: when they're troubling scenario when you talk and what price
Speaker 1: do you put to look after your kids? But one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars that's not one hundred thousand dollars you've
Speaker 1: got in your back pocket.
Speaker 2: I don't driver Ferrari, I can tell you that.
Speaker 1: And all the stress associated with worrying about your kids,
Speaker 1: seeing your kids, picking up their kids, and thinking they're
Speaker 1: not being looked after properly. But I suppose at this
Speaker 1: point in time, the systems working for you, the police,
Speaker 1: have supported your the orders are in place. But now
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a situation that, as you said, for
Speaker 1: all the money I've spent to get that order as
Speaker 1: a piece of paper that someone doesn't even acknowledge or recognize.
Speaker 2: Yeah, mate, And I believe at one stage she was
Speaker 2: contacting three to five different LAC's basically claiming I'd stolen
Speaker 2: kidding up my children. I think the word that was
Speaker 2: getting used, was child trafficked?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Now is this she's very much embedded in the
Speaker 1: Sovereign Citizen movement at this time. It was all this
Speaker 1: stuff that was coming from her. You've described how she's changed,
Speaker 1: But is this the ideology that she was now believing
Speaker 1: of believing.
Speaker 2: Or living living branding?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And like I said, that's a loose freedom
Speaker 2: fighters is another term that gets thrown around, you know,
Speaker 2: whatever name you put on it. If you've got people
Speaker 2: willing to help you kidnap somebody else's children, we're not
Speaker 2: playing around you. You know, we're at the serious end
Speaker 2: of the game.
Speaker 1: So in that incident, she's out the front, you've called
Speaker 1: the police, she got taken away, arrested, and then I'm
Speaker 1: assuming not charged at that point in time.
Speaker 2: No, And I think there was like an interim ABO
Speaker 2: put in place.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the first of the AVOs that
Speaker 1: have come in the place. And what were the directions
Speaker 1: of the av were?
Speaker 2: I think just the basics. You can't come within five
Speaker 2: hundred meters of myself where I go to work, that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell us about the breaches.
Speaker 2: The breaches, so you know, very hard as a man
Speaker 2: when you talk about the domestic violence space, it is
Speaker 2: predominantly women and children that have spoken about and so
Speaker 2: it should be because that's where the worst of it
Speaker 2: is that I see. But there is men that go
Speaker 2: through this. The violence part doesn't have to be physical violence.
Speaker 2: It can just be unwanted attention. And we were getting
Speaker 2: quite a bit of that, text messages, phone calls, random
Speaker 2: people I didn't know, doing welfare checks on the boys,
Speaker 2: you know, I want to check their safe, this sort
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 1: So, and these are random peo people I've never heard of,
Speaker 1: but people trying to make out that they've got a
Speaker 1: right to check this or making a full representation of
Speaker 1: who they are, that type of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, involving themselves in my children's lives, you know. But
Speaker 2: this was going on at the police station. It's one
Speaker 2: of their tactics. They just flood you with phone calls,
Speaker 2: flood you with emails.
Speaker 1: When you say it was going on at the police station,
Speaker 1: what do you.
Speaker 2: Mean asking for welfare checks?
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they're contacting the police stations, say they've got
Speaker 1: concerns for the kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my my senses were heightened already at this stage.
Speaker 2: But we'd watched the movie with the kids. Remember, and
Speaker 2: I'm playing two roles, he protector of my children and
Speaker 2: dad yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Trying to shield your kids from all the drama.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they want to watch movies together, do you know,
Speaker 2: very difficult to switch between both roles. To this day,
Speaker 2: it's very difficult. So we'd all watch the movie. We're
Speaker 2: asleep on the lounge. Yeah, got the fireplace. Everything's going well,
Speaker 2: you know, and next minute, bang on my door, like
Speaker 2: you would see with those raids that you see on
Speaker 2: tap drug dealers houses, bashing on the door. It's raining.
Speaker 2: Open the door. There's a full driver of the spotlight
Speaker 2: on the house, saying their police they want to come in.
Speaker 2: I was in a bit of a Day's opened the door.
Speaker 2: My poor mum, she's crying at the time. She was frightened.
Speaker 2: We said what's going on? They said where's the kids?
Speaker 2: And I was like, here and that to me, We've
Speaker 2: been told they're locked in a cage. I think was
Speaker 2: one of the remarks from the copper. And I was like, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, you know we've had calls from this person,
Speaker 2: which was the mother, and I said, well, there's court
Speaker 2: orders in place, they're meant to be they are safe.
Speaker 2: Don't quote me on the number, Gary, but I think
Speaker 2: we had nearly twenty seven of those twenty five to
Speaker 2: twenty seven.
Speaker 1: Well fare, okay, Yeah, it's just harassment, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and by ringing and.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying police harassment, they're going to follow up
Speaker 1: when there's a complaint.
Speaker 2: No, the police were good in the end. Like what
Speaker 2: happened was you got different shifts. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 2: one job didn't you know, how busy they get. One
Speaker 2: job didn't get picked up. Then a different car crew
Speaker 2: pick up the job, they come to the house. So
Speaker 2: it was happening day and night. I sort of started
Speaker 2: with going in to speak to the local sergeant and
Speaker 2: then I sort of bumped it up, you know.
Speaker 1: And eventually the police, the local area police would start
Speaker 1: to understand that.
Speaker 2: The correct But where we had an issue was she
Speaker 2: was calling LAC's up in Sydney. So you've got I
Speaker 2: believe Inspector level up there saying we've had the phone call.
Speaker 1: We need that checked. Yeah, I can see how it
Speaker 1: could be manipulated. And just whining back for a sec too.
Speaker 1: You talked about it's difficult from a man's point of
Speaker 1: view when you're talking domestic violence, and that that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be physical. It can be the manipulation and
Speaker 1: all that. I think it's healthy having the discussion and that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the majority of domestic violence are where women are the victim,
Speaker 1: and the domestic violence is a broad term I'm using
Speaker 1: for conflict within a domestic relationship. But this type of
Speaker 1: manipulation and harassment, that's how I would describe what's going on.
Speaker 1: And if you're putting the figure in the twenties, whether
Speaker 1: it's twenty seven or twenty, it doesn't matter. If it's
Speaker 1: just a frequency of it that can be not just
Speaker 1: destroy your life, destroy the kid's life. It's just yeah,
Speaker 1: and not to mention the waste of resource public resources.
Speaker 1: There is an offense called public mischief where you report
Speaker 1: the crime and find out that's, yeah, it's not not
Speaker 1: true and not justified in your reporting it. I'd be
Speaker 1: sort of looking towards that.
Speaker 2: On one occasion, I had a detective called me. I
Speaker 2: had the kids at Escape Park and he's like, where
Speaker 2: are the kids? I said that with me. I tried
Speaker 2: to walk away from the car to have this conversation
Speaker 2: with him. Unfortunately, bluetooth kicked in and the kids heard
Speaker 2: that conversation. But you know, I started to just realize,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get anywhere if I kick up
Speaker 2: a stink here. I've got to I've got to work
Speaker 2: my side of it. So what I did was, I
Speaker 2: was like, where's the nearest police station. I'll meet you there.
Speaker 2: I'll bring the kids there. And you know that that
Speaker 2: end up happening on that day again. They go through
Speaker 2: sort of these questions, you know, are you okay, yep?
Speaker 2: Who's that? That's dad? Do you want to be here
Speaker 2: with dad? Yes? You know, kids became like they didn't
Speaker 2: like the police very much. And you know that's why
Speaker 2: I say I won't say anything bad about the police,
Speaker 2: because I had an officer come in, could see the
Speaker 2: kids were distressed about it, grabs a footy from one
Speaker 2: of the boys footies and says you want to go
Speaker 2: in the yard for a kick? That legend still see
Speaker 2: him around town these days. Yeah, that one, That one
Speaker 2: act changed how the boys saw the police. Eventually we
Speaker 2: got to a stage where we were told that we've
Speaker 2: got to come and they said, what we need to
Speaker 2: do is just cite the boys, ask if they're okay,
Speaker 2: and that's it. So what happened then was we formulated
Speaker 2: that plan. I'd get a phone call from the police.
Speaker 2: We've had another call. Can you walk the boys out
Speaker 2: on the front Franda. They'd walk out and say, you
Speaker 2: know how you're going?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: All sweet little wave off off they went. We were
Speaker 2: you say the black about black humor? The kids want
Speaker 2: me to sell the car because every cop car in
Speaker 2: the area knows my car and they wave when they
Speaker 2: go past. And teenage boys are a little embarrassed.
Speaker 1: By that, but they want to be hanging out with
Speaker 1: the colt.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, no, And you know, but I think that's
Speaker 2: good policing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's community policing. And the fact is that
Speaker 1: it's good to know that the police are going to respond,
Speaker 1: even if they've got their doubts. If there's just that
Speaker 1: one percent that they're going to just check. So they check.
Speaker 1: How do you deal with this like it did? Was
Speaker 1: she breaching the AVA by this?
Speaker 2: No others were doing it? Yeah, And then the breaches
Speaker 2: of the AVO were appearing on so we we had
Speaker 2: to formulate safety plans. Right, So that was drive my
Speaker 2: youngest son to school. There were two separate schools, which
Speaker 2: made that difficult. Driving to school, hand him over in
Speaker 2: the office. Once that stuff member was on him, he
Speaker 2: basically had someone shadow him around the school for his
Speaker 2: entire school day. That was done very cleverly by what
Speaker 2: they call an SLSO. And so he's like, oh, you
Speaker 2: know this guy. I won't mention his name, but he's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this guy plays handball with me every day and he
Speaker 2: does his never out of somebody's sight at any That's.
Speaker 1: What had to be put in place because of this.
Speaker 1: So when we talk in the twenties of these inquiries
Speaker 1: or concerns for welfare of your children over what period
Speaker 1: of time was.
Speaker 2: This nearly the whole family court fifteen sixteen months?
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, yeah, what's the next step? What do you do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I had safety plans put in
Speaker 2: place with the school, so they involved meetings. I then
Speaker 2: somewhere along the lines, I've gone from full time work
Speaker 2: back to part time. You know, I wouldn't have gotten
Speaker 2: to this point if it wasn't for the support of
Speaker 2: the family that I'm employed by. They let me go
Speaker 2: back to part time work and pretty much anything I've
Speaker 2: had to be at court appearances, school meetings, they just
Speaker 2: facilitated and I can't thank them enough for that. And
Speaker 2: I guess it got to a stage where, if you know,
Speaker 2: the school would take them on the outings to the
Speaker 2: park or bike riding or something. My son couldn't go
Speaker 2: to that unless I was there.
Speaker 1: And this is because of the concerns that they would be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I skipped over a bit. So what had
Speaker 2: happened was on one occasion, I'm talking like, you can
Speaker 2: imagine how tightly you hold your kids when this goes on.
Speaker 2: So even for my son to go out and play,
Speaker 2: and I say my son, because the youngest one was
Speaker 2: the biggest concern. His mum was going to grab him.
Speaker 2: You know, she'd sort of cut the eldest one off
Speaker 2: because he was the snitch in her words. So what
Speaker 2: happened was my son used to go and play with
Speaker 2: one friend down the end of the street. I was
Speaker 2: advised by police you might want to throw a tracker
Speaker 2: on him, and I was like, what do you mean.
Speaker 2: They said, you know, in case he's grabbed, that's difficulty,
Speaker 2: very difficulty.
Speaker 1: And for police to say that that must have some
Speaker 1: reason I rationale behind telling you to put the tracker on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, don't put it in a
Speaker 2: school bag, because that'll be the first thing gets thrown away.
Speaker 2: And my head's spinning. So we come up with a
Speaker 2: plan there, and I won't go into where or how
Speaker 2: he carries it, but he still does to this day
Speaker 2: when he's outside where we are. So we formulated a
Speaker 2: plan with his friend down the corner that he'd ride
Speaker 2: the bike down. As he turned around the corner, I
Speaker 2: couldn't see him. The other mother was on the phone
Speaker 2: and she says, yep, I can see him. They'd play together,
Speaker 2: and then when he was coming home she'd ring. I'd say, yes,
Speaker 2: I can see him. We're talking maybe one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty two hundred meters. He's gone around that corner, and
Speaker 2: I believe the mum was watching them play outside. She's
Speaker 2: gone inside for a second to check the dinner or
Speaker 2: something like that. My son gets approached by somebody that
Speaker 2: it passes him a cryptic note and says, don't tell anybody,
Speaker 2: but mummy's coming to get you tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Any idea who that was or.
Speaker 2: We managed to get CCTV footage, but police were never
Speaker 2: able to find that person. Male female, female, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: my son knew the face but couldn't say the name.
Speaker 2: He just said he'd seen that face in the camps,
Speaker 2: and the camps meant wherever they'd stayed during.
Speaker 1: That Mummy's coming to get you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he come home that afternoon, is very quiet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so for an hour or so. He's a very deep
Speaker 2: thinking sort of child. So I just sort of gave
Speaker 2: him a bit of space and then I said to him,
Speaker 2: what's up. We need to have a chat, and he
Speaker 2: passed me the little note. He wouldn't talk. Gary was Froe.
Speaker 1: So when the cryptic note actual physically gave him a note.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there was when I say CRYPTI there
Speaker 2: was no writing on it. There's a thing called a
Speaker 2: mood ring, and he was given the mood ring. And
Speaker 2: then his mum kept the little bit of cardboard that
Speaker 2: tells you what color is what mood and it was
Speaker 2: folded up in a wallet. This is what he's told me,
Speaker 2: And he said that he knew that was mum's. So
Speaker 2: that was the way of telling him, Okay, yeah, that's
Speaker 2: what I believe, and something over.
Speaker 1: He could relate to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And you can imagine the confusion going
Speaker 2: on because he's already missing his mum and you can't
Speaker 2: when you're going through the court process. Don't discuss it
Speaker 2: with the children. They put you in a pretty difficult
Speaker 2: position because they see in all the moods and everything
Speaker 2: that goes on. Yeah, very difficult position, and.
Speaker 1: You can't discuss any of its, explain what's going on, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you're contaminated. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And around this time, Gary, I guess I took on
Speaker 2: the role of investigator as well as, you know, his
Speaker 2: personal security guard. So I actually went. He was approached
Speaker 2: twice in he didn't he loves riding his bike, so
Speaker 2: he didn't not want to ride his bike anymore. So
Speaker 2: I just said to this mum, you know, we'll do
Speaker 2: the same thing. But I was floating around. It actually
Speaker 2: annoyed him. I was floating around in the car, so
Speaker 2: I was watching him from a distance. I wasn't going
Speaker 2: to have that happen a second time. So I'd driven
Speaker 2: up the street to do a U turn. The kids
Speaker 2: were playing out the front of the local service station.
Speaker 2: They had a little jump there. The guy in the
Speaker 2: service station, I knew as I've gone to turn the
Speaker 2: car around up the end of the street sort of,
Speaker 2: I was patrolling. He's approached again. But this time, the
Speaker 2: same woman, same car. This was when we were able
Speaker 2: to put it to because when I found out about
Speaker 2: the first occasion, I flew down there at a rate
Speaker 2: of knights. Nobody around. We live in an area where,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a small community, so.
Speaker 1: A strange car, I'll stick out.
Speaker 2: It'll stick out. Yeah, So I went to the local
Speaker 2: service station after he it said the lady come again.
Speaker 2: But she walked, I believe, up to approach him, and
Speaker 2: then passed him and went to go on the service station.
Speaker 2: And the attendant thought it was funny that she didn't
Speaker 2: go in, and then turned around and say, I think
Speaker 2: he sort of caught partial license plate over the vehicle.
Speaker 2: So I'd say maybe she got, you know, spooped a
Speaker 2: bit or something a couple of days. So obviously I'm
Speaker 2: calling the police with all of this, they said. I
Speaker 2: remember one police officer said to me, make these things
Speaker 2: contend to make you a little bit paranoid, And I'm like,
Speaker 2: for an approach to that quick, Gary. They're watching, right,
Speaker 2: So then Wet tightened security around him a lot more.
Speaker 2: We were driving to the school along the school run
Speaker 2: at the bottom of our street, just outside the range
Speaker 2: of the AVA is Helen walking up the street. This
Speaker 2: is on the school.
Speaker 1: Run, and then she'd have no businessman down there. It's
Speaker 1: not like she's and half hours away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, way smiling. You know, it's not a
Speaker 2: physical thing, but not meant to be there. You imagine
Speaker 2: the confusion.
Speaker 1: You've had these approaches by the unknown woman you've had, Helen.
Speaker 1: They're not breaching the AVA because he's just outside meither
Speaker 1: outside the five hundred mether radius. Where do you go
Speaker 1: to from there?
Speaker 2: So two things happened very quickly. So shortly after the
Speaker 2: police come to tell me that the vehicle was linked
Speaker 2: to that male that we mentioned before who lives ten
Speaker 2: hours away.
Speaker 1: Okay, and this male being the person that was very
Speaker 1: vocal in the car front passengers car of the video
Speaker 1: that we played when Helen was arrested and refused to
Speaker 1: acknowledge police power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. So that kicked me up another gear again. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: this is now working in company with others.
Speaker 1: And all these people are associated to the NDA, the
Speaker 1: Sovereign Citizen Movement.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So then the interesting thing was there the police
Speaker 2: are on the way to tell me they've they've linked
Speaker 2: that vehicle to this person and the car is laying
Speaker 2: in wait in another side street just up there over
Speaker 2: my house. So they approached it. It sped off, I believe,
Speaker 2: a short pursuit insured and they got away and I
Speaker 2: was sort of told, you know, we've got a number
Speaker 2: plate recognition. It won't get all the way back to
Speaker 2: where it comes from. I said, well, it god, all
Speaker 2: the way down here, didn't it. And when I meet
Speaker 2: up a gear, that's when I really started taking the
Speaker 2: protection of my son extremely serious.
Speaker 1: So your your concern, based on the stuff that had
Speaker 1: been happening to you in the situations you found yourself in,
Speaker 1: was that your son was going to be abducted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll take you to Constant And you know,
Speaker 2: reoccurring nightmares that my son was having was and I
Speaker 2: had to go out and comfort him when he wakes
Speaker 2: up screaming, was that somebody was pulling a bag over
Speaker 2: his head and dragging him off his bike. Now that's
Speaker 2: come directly from that person. You know, they didn't grab him,
Speaker 2: They just approached him, approached him, but it frightened him.
Speaker 2: That's taken a lot of counseling to get him through that.
Speaker 2: You know, kids should be worried about getting lollies from
Speaker 2: the corner shop, hanging out with their mates, fun times.
Speaker 1: Totally carefree, no responsibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, these kids have been treated like they
Speaker 2: belong to movie stars. You know, they've They've got myself
Speaker 2: and others following them around and protecting them in their
Speaker 2: day to day activities right.
Speaker 1: Now, and they'd be aware of that. Part of the
Speaker 1: fun was getting away from the scrutiny of your parents
Speaker 1: and people watching what you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even to play that. The kids love their footy,
Speaker 2: even play footy. I'm patrolling the car park. Other fathers
Speaker 2: are watching for faces we don't know. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: the community has been sensational in the they've given. My
Speaker 2: kids are nowhere in our community without eyes on them,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just how it has to be.
Speaker 1: So you've got the police have got this car that's
Speaker 1: been identified in the vicinity of where your son is,
Speaker 1: and that's linked to the group that Helen's involved with
Speaker 1: from ten ten hours.
Speaker 2: Away up the North coast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, living a normal life when you feel like you've
Speaker 1: been watched all the time and you've got people stalking
Speaker 1: and tracking the movements of your kids, how did that
Speaker 1: affect you personally?
Speaker 2: I'll have been. I did Victims of crime counseling, Yeah,
Speaker 2: was recommended to me. I during that was displaying all
Speaker 2: the signs of pdsdeh. I think that's a term that's
Speaker 2: thrown around pretty loosely these days. But you know, they
Speaker 2: did psycho tests some men stuff like that, and they
Speaker 2: just said, you're super hyper vigilant. So I was, it's
Speaker 2: enough and for me to be running eighteen nineteen hour days.
Speaker 2: There was stages there where I was I think, blacking
Speaker 2: out Gary I was, I was coming to you know,
Speaker 2: not remembering getting it, getting out of bed and lying
Speaker 2: behind the front fence, tooled up, ready to go.
Speaker 1: I kind of.
Speaker 2: Likened it to when I was when I was working
Speaker 2: on the door. I used to I'm a pretty passive guy.
Speaker 2: Used to get a kick out of talking blokes down,
Speaker 2: you know, not punching on with them. A kind of
Speaker 2: when I put on that uniform, I become a different
Speaker 2: person to who I was he my own life. So
Speaker 2: I went back to that. The unfortunate side of it
Speaker 2: is I didn't take the uniform off and I still
Speaker 2: haven't to this day. You know, I've become a different person.
Speaker 2: My wife has said that this has changed our lives forever,
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what it's done.
Speaker 1: Okay, look, we might we might take a break. Now.
Speaker 1: What you're going through is horrendous and you're describing it
Speaker 1: very well. Indeed, tell and the build up and the
Speaker 1: frustration and all the things that go into there. When
Speaker 1: we get back for part two, we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about you. You're getting served a warrant from the nda
Speaker 1: Supreme Court of the World or whatever.
Speaker 2: They that's another fact of the case that did happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the court matter, and I've got some
Speaker 1: extracts from the transcripts of things that Helen said in
Speaker 1: the court just to give the listeners a sense of
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with here. I think you coming out
Speaker 1: and speaking and I know before we spoke on the podcast,
Speaker 1: you want people to understand these are the things that
Speaker 1: can happen, and this is the impact it can have.
Speaker 1: Is that the basis of your talking here, Yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: That it's to tell other men out there. Yep, the
Speaker 2: domestic violence is real for you. Everybody's case is different.
Speaker 2: I understand that you've got to stand up. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: you've got to grow up here and stand up and
Speaker 2: say this is not okay, Well.
Speaker 1: I suppose flip it and what you've discribe. Now, if
Speaker 1: it was a woman in this situation, the man was doing.
Speaker 2: That, I'd already be sitting in silver Water.
Speaker 1: Well you said it, I didn't.
Speaker 2: Well that's the truth.
Speaker 1: I think we need to have that discussion. If you
Speaker 1: flipped it was a man stalking.
Speaker 2: Moon like that, and sometimes.
Speaker 1: And quite rightly, you should be sitting in silver War
Speaker 1: the prison if you're doing that.
Speaker 2: I agree totally.
Speaker 1: I think it's a healthy discussion to have about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes males are the victims in these situations.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I pointed out to you Gary in
Speaker 2: a letter I sent you that, and you know where
Speaker 2: I grew up. Real number one was don't fuck around
Speaker 2: with another person's family. Yeah, they chose the wrong men's
Speaker 2: family to fuck around with in this case. So I'm
Speaker 2: not going away. I'll do it publicly, I'll stand in
Speaker 2: front of them, I'll do I'll take it to whatever
Speaker 2: level they want to take it to. But they chose
Speaker 2: the wrong fucking family to mess with.
Speaker 1: And watch I like the messaging. Yeah, and that quite right.
Speaker 1: You can't be intimidated or harassed. And good on you
Speaker 1: for standing up to them. Let's have a break and
Speaker 1: come back. And I think when people listen to some
Speaker 1: of the some of the transcripts from the court matter,
Speaker 1: they'll get a sense of what you're dealing with and
Speaker 1: how difficult it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks to look forward to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, cheers,