WEBVTT - Partner to predator, my sovereign citizen ex: Scott Murrin Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Who the hell are these sovereign citizens? What do they

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<v Speaker 1>stand for? Why are we talking about them? And are

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<v Speaker 1>they something we should be concerned about. Recently, two police

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<v Speaker 1>officers were killed in Victoria, allegedly by a person who

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<v Speaker 1>identify himself as a sovereign citizen. At the time of recording,

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<v Speaker 1>that man is still on the run. In twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 1>two other police officers were shot and killed in Queensland

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<v Speaker 1>by Gareth Train who supported the Sovereign Citizen movement. So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we should be concerned by the Sovereign Citizen

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<v Speaker 1>movement today. I spake to Scott Man. Scott's former partner,

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<v Speaker 1>Helen Delaney, is a co founder and self proclaimed leader

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<v Speaker 1>of the Sovereign Citizen group Nam Dhaka Dhala australis also

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<v Speaker 1>known as NDA. You're going to be shocked by what

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<v Speaker 1>he has to say and what has happened to him

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<v Speaker 1>and his children, including his concerns of the children being kidnapped.

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<v Speaker 1>Scott now has sole custody of his children, but he's

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<v Speaker 1>living in fear every day that they might be taken

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<v Speaker 1>from him. It's not the way you want to live

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<v Speaker 1>your life. Our conversation gave me a greater understanding of

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<v Speaker 1>what the Sovereign Citizen movement is all about and the

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<v Speaker 1>dangers we face when ideologies become extreme. It's really quite scary.

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<v Speaker 1>Scott Murran, welcome to our Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, Garret. It's a pleasure.

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<v Speaker 1>Well I'm guessing here, but I think you'd prefer to

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<v Speaker 1>be listening to a podcast, a true crime podcast, and

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<v Speaker 1>being the guest on a true christ Yes. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 1>life hasn't turned out that way, has it with things

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<v Speaker 1>that you've been through.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>We're going to be touching because your wife and a

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<v Speaker 1>former wife, Helen Delaney, got involved in a sovereign citizen

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<v Speaker 1>movement and that sort of your life was never the same.

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<v Speaker 2>Following that until this day.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're going to talk about it. And people would

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<v Speaker 1>have have recent times heard of sovereign citizens coming into

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<v Speaker 1>the narrative, recent shooting of two police officers down in

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<v Speaker 1>Victoria with a person who identified as a sovereign citizen,

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't know, maybe your perspective is completely different

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<v Speaker 1>because what you've been through, But when you ago, i'd

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<v Speaker 1>see someone who claimed to be a sovereign citizen, I'd

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<v Speaker 1>have a bit of a chuckle and think it's all harmless.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah that was me at the beginning too. Yeah, they're

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<v Speaker 2>just clowns, is what I thought. Yeah, but the further

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<v Speaker 2>you delve into what they put online and their communication

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<v Speaker 2>with each other, it's a very serious matter. And when

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<v Speaker 2>you get to a point of threatening to take somebody's children,

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<v Speaker 2>I treat that very seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's definitely, and that's where the ideology when they

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<v Speaker 1>start acting on their ideology, and it becomes transfixed on it,

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<v Speaker 1>it can become problematic. Before we get into our conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>I should clarify here your former wife, Helen Delaney, has

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<v Speaker 1>been convicted at court for eleven counts of breaching an

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<v Speaker 1>AVA and one count of intimidation.

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<v Speaker 2>That's correct, Yep, that is correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, we're going to talk about what happened to

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<v Speaker 1>you and the journey you've been on and protecting your children,

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<v Speaker 1>but we're also going to talk about sovereign citizens in general,

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<v Speaker 1>and I probably should. We'll talk about like while I

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<v Speaker 1>recently what I mentioned about the two police officers in

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<v Speaker 1>Victoria who were murdered, and then in twenty twenty two

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<v Speaker 1>there was two other police officers who were murdered when

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<v Speaker 1>they were shot by a person who identified with sovereign

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<v Speaker 1>citizen ideology. I think his name was Gareth Traine. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that was in twenty twenty two. So, just as by

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<v Speaker 1>way of a disclaimer, I need to make it very

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<v Speaker 1>clear we're not suggesting all sovereign citizens are capable of

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<v Speaker 1>committing such horrendous crimes or Helen. Then the nam Daka

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<v Speaker 1>Dahalia Australias, which is the sovereign citizen.

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<v Speaker 2>Group, it was a group that she formed, Yes, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>That she formed for that matter of linked or would

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<v Speaker 1>carry out crimes of that nature. So I just sort

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<v Speaker 1>of put that on record. But I think it's worthwhile

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<v Speaker 1>talking about crimes like that and how they are linked

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<v Speaker 1>to people with these sovereign citizen beliefs and ideology.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree, because the first time I've heard about it,

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<v Speaker 1>or the first time it really became part of my understanding,

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<v Speaker 1>was during COVID, where people were coming out and they

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<v Speaker 1>were pushing against the powers of the state and the

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<v Speaker 1>lockdown laws and the mandatory vaccinations and all the type

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<v Speaker 1>of things that people were generally concerned about.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they also go under the monarch of freedom fighters

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<v Speaker 2>because sovereign citizen is an oxymoron. You can't be a

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<v Speaker 2>sovereign and a citizen. You'll hear them say that a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And it's not just one group. There's a whole

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<v Speaker 2>ranger groups that we've come across. Ye, And they just

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<v Speaker 2>they meet online, they talk in secret chat rooms and

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<v Speaker 2>to me, have whatever thoughts or beliefs or ideologies you want.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you start acting on them and you start

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<v Speaker 2>including people's children, yeah, it's game on for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's where they cross the line with the impact

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<v Speaker 1>that it's had on you. And we're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive into that. And you say, oxymoron about sovereign citizens.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to when maybe we do it in part two,

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<v Speaker 1>just you know, sort of pick apart some of the

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<v Speaker 1>philosophies of a sovereign citizen because it doesn't seem to

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<v Speaker 1>add up to one thing that what they're they're claiming,

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<v Speaker 1>and then how they're living their life. So we'll have

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<v Speaker 1>a look at that. Tell me a little bit just

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<v Speaker 1>about your background, so people listening to the podcast understand

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<v Speaker 1>where you can.

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<v Speaker 2>Before this, I was just a pretty simple living sort

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<v Speaker 2>of person. Grew up in housing commission in Globe Yep.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, got an education there. As I mentioned to

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<v Speaker 2>you before that you don't get in school. I think

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<v Speaker 2>you've had people.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just just focusing through who would you know, because yeah, Gleb, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was a lot of them.

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<v Speaker 1>It was. It was a tough, tough neighborhood to grow

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<v Speaker 1>up on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and before it became a trendy in the western

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<v Speaker 2>yeah suburb it was the projects, So it was a

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<v Speaker 2>tough place to grow up.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, you've identified that you wouldn't be the first

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<v Speaker 1>guess that sat in that chair that grew up up

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<v Speaker 1>round the globe. Okay, so that was your childhood and

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<v Speaker 1>then into adulthood.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just sort of got wasn't that into school? So

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<v Speaker 2>I got out of school in year ten and I

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<v Speaker 2>started an apprenticeship. I sort of did that for a

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<v Speaker 2>while three years, discovered girls and through the apprenticeship away

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<v Speaker 2>and just pretty.

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<v Speaker 1>Much make some great decisions at that age.

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<v Speaker 2>Me and women. It's a big drama, but yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of have been from job to job very much. Yeah, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever I had to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, you've had from your first wife, I understand that

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<v Speaker 1>you had had a child, yeah, her first wife.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've got a daughter that's twenty seven. Yeah, she's

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<v Speaker 2>a psychologist, which has been helpful through this. And then yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>series of failed relationships after that, some of which I

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<v Speaker 2>was probably to blame for.

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<v Speaker 1>Gary, Okay, let's break the hat right down. I've never

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<v Speaker 1>had admissions like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, I understand like relationships are complicated, and yeah, they

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<v Speaker 1>when they fall apart, that things can deteriorate rather quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>But there's always two sides to the story.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, never quite like this one.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I've got to say, like, I've made some mistakes

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<v Speaker 1>in relationships as well, but I don't think I've gone

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<v Speaker 1>down as bad as you have in what's happened with

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<v Speaker 1>your relationship with Helen? Yeah, so when did you get

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<v Speaker 1>with Helen?

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<v Speaker 2>So I was working as a security guard YEP in Sydney,

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<v Speaker 2>doing some very interesting work in that alone, and we

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<v Speaker 2>just I met. I was sort of like, I'm working,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, up until one hundred hours a week, no

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<v Speaker 2>time to meet anybody. Didn't feel like I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to meet my future wife on a nightclub door. And

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<v Speaker 2>then after that I sort of just started to look

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<v Speaker 2>into that internet dating and we clicked through that. At

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<v Speaker 2>the time, she was a film producer, working on big

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like Superman, The Matrix, that sort of stuff, pretty good,

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<v Speaker 2>making quite successful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once we

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<v Speaker 2>discovered we had a child on the way, my oldest son.

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<v Speaker 2>She had a home up in Newcastle, so I was

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<v Speaker 2>able to get work up there with the same company

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<v Speaker 2>I worked for, and we went to Newcastle and I

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<v Speaker 2>worked in the advertising business as a producer, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was working nights so I could be daddy day care

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<v Speaker 2>during the day. Yeah, and Newcastle beautiful spot. It was great. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought we'd live there forever. And then my mum,

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<v Speaker 2>who's ninety five and still lives with me today. She

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<v Speaker 2>was in the family home down the coast and she

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<v Speaker 2>sort of got to a stage in life where she

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<v Speaker 2>needed help. She didn't want to go into a nursing home,

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<v Speaker 2>and I made a promise that, you know, I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>do that, So we shifted down there, and shortly after,

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<v Speaker 2>oh no, sorry, we had Grace, who I mentioned to

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<v Speaker 2>you before we lost the child.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she was a spine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so they didn't find out until very late in

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<v Speaker 2>the pregnancy. So we had to go through the birth

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<v Speaker 2>of Grace and she didn't survive that day, which was tough.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of trauma associated with a situation.

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<v Speaker 2>Like yeah, yeah, very tough. First time I did counseling

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<v Speaker 2>was kids and kids.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to believe that was all, you know, spooks

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<v Speaker 2>and widows. But yeah, it helped me get through that.

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<v Speaker 2>We shifted down to live with mum, sort of start fresh,

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<v Speaker 2>and along come my third son. And after the birth

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<v Speaker 2>of my third son, we sort of I was working,

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<v Speaker 2>but she wanted to go back to work. She went

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<v Speaker 2>back to work and again, I went back into the

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<v Speaker 2>role of daddy daycare.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and how did you find that like it?

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<v Speaker 2>Loved it? Yeah, yeah, loved it. Sometimes the only bloke

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<v Speaker 2>at the park with all the mums and the stroll

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<v Speaker 2>and stuff, But yeah I did. I loved it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's there's a lot said for it, isn't Yeah

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<v Speaker 1>you've done something like that. Yeah, I know some friends

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<v Speaker 1>that have gone down that path, and yeah I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>have that our rewarding it is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I didn't have it with my daughter. But I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a strong believer in that tummy time. So straight after

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<v Speaker 2>all of my children were born, I did that tummy time.

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<v Speaker 1>Spent spending time with the kid.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and I for me, that just gives us

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<v Speaker 2>an unbreakable bond, which you know still there today.

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<v Speaker 1>It's shown through. Okay. So it was a fairly every

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<v Speaker 1>when I say average life, it was a life that

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<v Speaker 1>you were living and a simple life, and you everything

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<v Speaker 1>was going well at that stage.

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<v Speaker 3>And then when did it start to So when she

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<v Speaker 3>went back in the relationship, when she went back to work,

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<v Speaker 3>she became a real estate agent, selling land in a subdivision.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was just at the time real estate was

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<v Speaker 2>really slow where we live, and then there was a

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<v Speaker 2>boom and I think she claimed one day to have

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<v Speaker 2>sold twelve million dollars worth of property record sales day,

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing. And you know, she was good

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<v Speaker 2>at what she did. Cut from that, Yes, life was good. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and she sort of that was where it started. She

0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.280
<v Speaker 2>wanted to get into property investing in when we bought

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a couple of properties like I mentioned too before, and

0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:27.480
<v Speaker 2>that was out of equity within my family home, having

0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>lost a home earlier in life through another interesting relationship

0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.600
<v Speaker 2>which was right next door to the property that I

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:36.320
<v Speaker 2>now live in.

0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:41.679
<v Speaker 1>Scott Maybe we should talk off camera. I had a

0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.360
<v Speaker 1>tendency to and I should reveal this, But anyway, I'm

0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.200
<v Speaker 1>asking you a lot of questions. I had a tendency

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.480
<v Speaker 1>to buy property in the in the peak and selling

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.040
<v Speaker 1>the slump. And I worked out if I had adjusted

0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.000
<v Speaker 1>my relationships by two years, I would have been buying

0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:59.880
<v Speaker 1>in the slump and selling in the I would have

0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.079
<v Speaker 1>a lot more money.

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.400
<v Speaker 2>From when I was thirty till today. Financially, I have

0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.600
<v Speaker 2>just made a mess of my life in terms of

0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:07.880
<v Speaker 2>property and women.

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, well it happens, so yeah, I'm certainly not sitting

0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 1>here in judgment of you, I wanted to talk. We've

0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.280
<v Speaker 1>got a sense of the relationship at this stage. Now

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.679
<v Speaker 1>i'll talk specifically about Helen a little bit more detail

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.199
<v Speaker 1>about it, but before we do, just so that our

0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.920
<v Speaker 1>listeners and can get a sense of what we're talking about,

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 1>because she, how would I put this, became rather notorious

0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.720
<v Speaker 1>is probably the best word. When she featured on a

0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 1>YouTube sensation when she's been arrested by police and refused

0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.320
<v Speaker 1>to abide by their decisions. And I just want to

0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.439
<v Speaker 1>play that, and then we'll talk about Helen in more detail, sure,

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 1>because this will give people a sense of what we're

0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:00.000
<v Speaker 1>talking about. I should clarify this is after you've separated

0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 1>from her. This is down the track when she's very

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 1>much embroiled and caught up in the sovereign citizen.

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 4>Okay, on this land, I'll look at arrest you absolutely

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 4>what we are not driving, We are traveling. You guys

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 4>don't even know what you'se are on about. I need

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.560
<v Speaker 4>your most senior, most JEU. We'll bring your most senior

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:28.920
<v Speaker 4>sergeant down.

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Sir.

0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.400
<v Speaker 4>You prode details, you will be arrested. We don't have

0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:37.280
<v Speaker 4>to give you any details. There is any you will

0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.680
<v Speaker 4>commit offense, You'll be liable for it. It is absolutely trespassed.

0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.840
<v Speaker 4>You've got no jurisdiction here, Bro, you're committing offense by

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 4>standing here, Yes you are. You don't know, you don't

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 4>have any jurisdiction on this on this land. I'll look

0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.640
<v Speaker 4>at arrest you absolutely, man. I would love to just

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 4>get you one on one.

0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Drive you.

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:06.720
<v Speaker 2>To the vehicle under arrest.

0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so what we what we just watched there? Helen

0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.640
<v Speaker 1>was the driver of the vehicle. Police have stopped her.

0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 1>The aggressive man's voice you can hear that was a

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:22.080
<v Speaker 1>passenger in the in the vehicle at the time. Helen

0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 1>was stopped and claimed that the police or you know

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 1>in summary, that had no authority over her because she

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 1>identified as a sovereign sovereign citizen. Were you shocked when

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 1>you saw that?

0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not the person that I spent ten years

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 2>of my life with and had three children to. Yeah,

0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:39.680
<v Speaker 2>a completely different person.

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Because I remember remember seeing seeing that and it sawt

0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 1>of where it goes from a little bit funny to

0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more serious. Now she was arrested on that.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 1>I think there were some warrants in existence, and I

0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.160
<v Speaker 1>know the police come under criticism and ripping the window

0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 1>out because what we saw on the video was the

0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.440
<v Speaker 1>police officer actually ripped the front driver's window out and

0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.240
<v Speaker 1>smashed it. But what the police to do in that

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.560
<v Speaker 1>situation if someone's not recognizing their power, they can't they

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.520
<v Speaker 1>don't know what's in the car. They can't just person

0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:17.200
<v Speaker 1>person drive off. So that's sort of for I played

0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.240
<v Speaker 1>that because I want people to understand the difference between

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.600
<v Speaker 1>what Helen was when you first met her, or the

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.080
<v Speaker 1>type of person that she was, to what she evolved.

0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.720
<v Speaker 2>Into essentially two different people.

0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is what Helen's got involved in. How long

0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:35.000
<v Speaker 1>were you guys together?

0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Ten years?

0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:41.000
<v Speaker 1>Ten years all up? And when you separated? When was that?

0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.160
<v Speaker 1>How long you separated after ten years or were before then? Yeah?

0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Just before ten years we separated and it was amicable

0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 2>at the start, fifty to fifty custody of the boys.

0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:53.000
<v Speaker 2>We didn't go to court.

0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.880
<v Speaker 1>You're doing the seven days on, seven days off type.

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.200
<v Speaker 2>Scene, how I was, Yeah, Yeah, and the children are happy.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>They went to the same We lived a suburb apart.

0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Everything was fine until I believe Christmas. I couldn't recall

0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 2>a year, but they basically the children were eight and

0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:16.320
<v Speaker 2>eleven I think at the time, and the kids come

0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 2>to me on Christmas Eve I believe it was, and said, oh,

0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.359
<v Speaker 2>we're moving to Sydney and I said, that's news to me.

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 2>So that was kind of the beginning of where we

0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:26.959
<v Speaker 2>went off the edge of the cliff.

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, So up until this point it was an

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 1>amicable separation.

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Hady courts, property finances. Everything we did what they call

0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:40.080
<v Speaker 2>is a binding financial agreement. Yeah yeah, and yeah, we're all.

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:44.240
<v Speaker 1>Happy and living close proximity, so the kids' lives weren't

0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 1>messed up too much prior to that separation. And something

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.959
<v Speaker 1>around the time of the separation, Helen started to become

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.960
<v Speaker 1>in her mind a property guru is my reading of it.

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Also started listening to the self help but what's his name,

0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Matte So.

0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:09.760
<v Speaker 2>It was Gary Vanderchuk. Yeah, he's yeah, I think another

0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 2>one of Listen Jane Clarkson something, and she started to

0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.960
<v Speaker 2>really push that towards me. You know, we could be

0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.680
<v Speaker 2>sitting on a yacht in the Greek Isles and doing

0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.639
<v Speaker 2>this and that's people that know me. That's not me, Gary,

0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>I win Lotto. I'm probably shouting the boys down the

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:30.280
<v Speaker 2>pub I'm not sitting at a super yacht. So yeah,

0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.920
<v Speaker 2>she became obsessed with she wanted five properties in five years.

0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 2>As I mentioned to her before, she we had two properties.

0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.399
<v Speaker 2>They were out of the equity in my family home.

0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.720
<v Speaker 2>And I just wasn't going to do five properties in

0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.639
<v Speaker 2>five years. I'm a bit more risk averse than that.

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.760
<v Speaker 2>And what I said to her, well, what she said

0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.359
<v Speaker 2>to me was, you know, you're a glass half full person.

0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.320
<v Speaker 2>You don't want anything better in life. And I was like,

0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>when you met me, this is the person I was.

0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:58.959
<v Speaker 2>You're not going to change me into something I'm not.

0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to beat it rich and famous.

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 1>You can see how that would wear thin on the

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.320
<v Speaker 1>relationship or put cracks in the relationship. But I get

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.560
<v Speaker 1>the sense, and I'm asking, I'm not saying, but the

0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.959
<v Speaker 1>sense that I get is that she really bought into it.

0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 1>I liken it too. You know when m Way salesman

0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 1>used to come around and a friend had get caught

0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 1>up in it and there yeah, suddenly, yeah, yeah, I'm

0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 1>going to take over the world and this is the

0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:27.200
<v Speaker 1>best thing. Yeah.

0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.240
<v Speaker 2>Interestingly, she took me along to one of the meetings

0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.199
<v Speaker 2>and we were sitting there and I thought they were

0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.240
<v Speaker 2>rushes all there on one side. They're in the dark,

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.040
<v Speaker 2>and these people were sort of saying, oh, listen, we're

0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.640
<v Speaker 2>gonna we can do this for you, and then you've

0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 2>got to buy a tape off them, you know, and

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 2>then if you pay a bit more, you're on the

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 2>platinum level. And as they turn the lights on, all

0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 2>these ushes were standing there with not coffee and tea,

0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.480
<v Speaker 2>they were standing there with FPOs machines. And he goes

0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the first fifty people, you know, we'll get this steel

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.400
<v Speaker 2>for four eight hundred dollars or something, and I think

0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:06.679
<v Speaker 2>I even put my hand on a leg and I

0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.919
<v Speaker 2>just said, we're not doing that, and she goes, I

0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.480
<v Speaker 2>already got the early bird price. I've gone and spent

0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:15.200
<v Speaker 2>four and a half greend or whatever.

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's interesting, but this is all going in the

0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.240
<v Speaker 1>whole psychology of how people get caught up in ideologies,

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:25.600
<v Speaker 1>because I've been to and it was over in Western Australia.

0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.920
<v Speaker 1>For the life of me, I can't remember what the

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.520
<v Speaker 1>name of it was, but it was on the weekend Saturday,

0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.840
<v Speaker 1>and it was all people up there saying this, you know,

0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:35.680
<v Speaker 1>the world's roy so you can have an I don't

0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 1>think and if you just believe and exactly the same thing,

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.320
<v Speaker 1>not in seeing there with the lights off, but people

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.480
<v Speaker 1>ready to sign up if you get in early. And

0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I watched people get up and literally run to the

0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:48.679
<v Speaker 1>air where.

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, like a rock concert. They were actually knocking

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:52.399
<v Speaker 2>each other over to get over there and put the

0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 2>credit card on the machine.

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.400
<v Speaker 1>I found it entertaining and it was slightly humorous, but

0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 1>it was also it shocked me. But I think there

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:05.160
<v Speaker 1>in lies where people might be susceptible to getting caught

0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.960
<v Speaker 1>up in the ideology of a sovereign citizen. They got

0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.160
<v Speaker 1>that susceptibility to get into their mind and go, that's

0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:13.640
<v Speaker 1>what I'm missing, that's what I'm looking for.

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and to me, I'm adding up, you know, five

0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.200
<v Speaker 2>grand per twenty people, and then you know, the first

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.080
<v Speaker 2>fifty I'm going, this is a pretty good earn for

0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 2>a day, you know. And then we went to the

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Sydney one that was around the country, all major capitals,

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 2>and I was just like, no, this is not I'm

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.199
<v Speaker 2>not doing this. That's when I started to get the

0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:37.359
<v Speaker 2>feelings of losing the family home. Something mild men worked

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.080
<v Speaker 2>every weekend to get us out of housing commission and

0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:40.920
<v Speaker 2>give us a better life.

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Understandable.

0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 2>So I wasn't going to lose that, hay, And you.

0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 1>Get it drummed into you that you've got to have

0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 1>a roof over your head. One is she tripped over

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:52.479
<v Speaker 1>to America pursuing this type of stuff as well.

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was that was when I called quits on

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the relationship. So she booked a trip to America. Good

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.600
<v Speaker 2>friend to mine did some research and said she's paid

0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.840
<v Speaker 2>like four or five grand for a ticket to this

0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.119
<v Speaker 2>three day event, and off she went, you know, And

0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.040
<v Speaker 2>as she went out the door that morning, I said,

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.040
<v Speaker 2>when you get back, relationships finished, will sort out what

0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 2>we have to do with the kids in the properties.

0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.119
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not going on this journey with you. Yeah, okay.

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.440
<v Speaker 1>So the separation then, so it was her life was

0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 1>heading in a different direction. You wanted to keep the

0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:31.320
<v Speaker 1>life that you would work, simple life, and okay, so

0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:34.439
<v Speaker 1>you separate. So I understand that. Then it comes to

0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:39.159
<v Speaker 1>that Christmas Eve where the kids have said we're moving,

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:40.960
<v Speaker 1>which is a devastating thing.

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Like the timing was incredible.

0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, but like that is where that's where people

0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.760
<v Speaker 1>lose their shit over, Like when the kids have been

0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.080
<v Speaker 1>moved in the state or a long way away when

0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 1>they've been living close and then's yeah, it doesn't do

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:56.760
<v Speaker 1>anyone any good.

0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:58.399
<v Speaker 2>Now, and to put your clear on that go. What

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.880
<v Speaker 2>happened was my son asked me to go and talk

0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.840
<v Speaker 2>to his mother who was next door, and say, you know,

0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:06.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't want to go.

0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 1>How I was his son at the time.

0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:12.119
<v Speaker 2>He was around ten or eleven, okay to their friends. No,

0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.119
<v Speaker 2>he was going into year six at primary school, you know,

0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>formal at the end, all his friends that sort of.

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.480
<v Speaker 2>He didn't want to leave, and she basically told me

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.120
<v Speaker 2>I was being abusive. Was sitting at a table having

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:27.880
<v Speaker 2>a conversation. My son was present, and I said, look,

0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:29.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to leave. This is not my home

0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:31.879
<v Speaker 2>or walk outside. It was a mother's house at the time,

0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:36.480
<v Speaker 2>and she convinced my son to stay with her for

0:23:36.480 --> 0:23:40.439
<v Speaker 2>the night. The next morning he said, we're going to Sydney.

0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:43.720
<v Speaker 2>I've changed my mind. I was like, mate, that's a

0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.000
<v Speaker 2>big change. But not wanting to have the kids torn

0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:48.639
<v Speaker 2>between mum and.

0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Dad, I understand it.

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just said, you know, if you're going to go,

0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:55.480
<v Speaker 2>then when you go. If they don't want to be

0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:56.879
<v Speaker 2>there they come back.

0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:57.560
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:01.400
<v Speaker 2>That was probably the first mistake I made, big mistake, Yeah.

0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.480
<v Speaker 1>Because it was a number of days or a period

0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:06.560
<v Speaker 1>of time before you saw or heard from the kids again.

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I saw them sporadically over that time. Sometimes

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:14.439
<v Speaker 2>it was fortnightly, sometimes it was monthly. But also not

0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:16.960
<v Speaker 2>wanting to upset the kids. They were put into forty teams.

0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:20.199
<v Speaker 2>They love their footing, and they were you know, they

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 2>had a game on or there was always something or

0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I was working.

0:24:23.200 --> 0:24:26.040
<v Speaker 1>So when the kid and we're talking, what three hours

0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:27.359
<v Speaker 1>away from where you were living.

0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, they moved to Dremoyne, Sydney.

0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.159
<v Speaker 1>So it's something that you couldn't facilitate, not feasible for

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:37.000
<v Speaker 1>them to play football up there and be at yours

0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:37.159
<v Speaker 1>on the.

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Week Yeah, otherwise are going to spend every weekend in

0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.919
<v Speaker 2>the car. Yeah, and the youngest one doesn't like sitting

0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:44.880
<v Speaker 2>in the car for more than ten minutes. So it's

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.000
<v Speaker 2>a big ass. So I had to take a bit

0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:48.400
<v Speaker 2>of a backward step there for a while.

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what was the next thing that happened in

0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:52.680
<v Speaker 1>this situation?

0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Then one easter a bit further down the track, the

0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:58.679
<v Speaker 2>kids were getting harder to contact. This is around the

0:24:58.680 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 2>time of the Lismore floods.

0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:03.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what period of time has expired from when

0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.920
<v Speaker 1>they moved to Sydney to when it was getting harder

0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:07.520
<v Speaker 1>to contact?

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 2>Someone was in year six and then went into year seven,

0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:11.760
<v Speaker 2>so we're talking within twelve months.

0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:12.159
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I found out they were up in Lizmore the

0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:18.080
<v Speaker 2>liz More floods. They told me on the phone. You know,

0:25:18.119 --> 0:25:19.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm helping, we're helping to get money.

0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:21.960
<v Speaker 1>You thought they were still living at Sydney.

0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no knowledge.

0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:25.720
<v Speaker 1>So they're up at the Lizmore floods yep.

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:29.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And the person that's in the car with Helen there,

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.240
<v Speaker 2>he's been sort of a pivotal role in where she's

0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:33.880
<v Speaker 2>been at times.

0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 1>You referred to that. That was the voice that we

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 1>heard when Helen was arrested on the video. So he's

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:42.760
<v Speaker 1>been a fixture in her life certainly.

0:25:42.960 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:47.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So your kids are up in liz Moore around

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 1>the time of the Lizmore floods and what were they

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:50.280
<v Speaker 1>doing up there?

0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, Brion might have found out a lot

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.040
<v Speaker 2>of this down the track, but they were going around

0:25:56.280 --> 0:26:00.359
<v Speaker 2>getting donations and things like that. For to help people

0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:04.800
<v Speaker 2>out in the angerble camp. Yeah, that's where that person

0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:09.480
<v Speaker 2>we've mentioned before was living. And the kids we're living,

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:13.640
<v Speaker 2>sometimes sleeping in their car, sometimes in tin shacks.

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:15.640
<v Speaker 1>How old were the kids then.

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:19.920
<v Speaker 2>So still around that same age of eight or nine

0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:21.880
<v Speaker 2>years of age, and then the eldest one was about

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:22.480
<v Speaker 2>eleven twelve.

0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:26.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Now I can only imagine from your point of

0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.040
<v Speaker 1>view how concerning it would be that you're losing touch

0:26:29.080 --> 0:26:31.439
<v Speaker 1>with your kids. I'm assuming you didn't have a lot

0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 1>of direct contact with Helen at that time.

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:38.760
<v Speaker 2>Not a lot, just emails mainly and the odd text message.

0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:41.200
<v Speaker 2>But I quickly worked out it wasn't a lot of

0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 2>truth in what she was saying was happening and what

0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:44.560
<v Speaker 2>was actually happening.

0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 1>And in that period of time, did you get the

0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:49.240
<v Speaker 1>weekends with the kids or school holidays?

0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? On and off. The kids come to me one Christmas,

0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:55.640
<v Speaker 2>this is around the time of the Canbra protests. Yeah,

0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and we met sort of halfway between Camber and where

0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.960
<v Speaker 2>I live. The kids got in the car Gary and

0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 2>they smelt that badly that I did the fifty k

0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>trip back home of all four windows down and chucked

0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:11.520
<v Speaker 2>them in the shower as soon as I got them home.

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Right now, when you say it smelt badly, as in

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 1>they hadn't been bathing.

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Just any somebody that's sleeping, sleeping rough Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:21.639
<v Speaker 2>they looked terrible. They didn't look like my kids.

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:25.040
<v Speaker 1>How did you feel as a father there?

0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:28.679
<v Speaker 2>I was gutted, Yeah, and remembering that they're not in

0:27:28.680 --> 0:27:31.160
<v Speaker 2>my custody yet at that stage. So that's when I'm

0:27:31.200 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 2>starting to think was.

0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:34.240
<v Speaker 1>There any order? Was there any order at that stage

0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:36.160
<v Speaker 1>of the custody or it's still yeah, yeah.

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:39.600
<v Speaker 2>No there was, there was none. So the kids appeared

0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:44.400
<v Speaker 2>in a news clip when the fires happened in Old

0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 2>Parliament House.

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, now we're talking about the protests at the Parliament

0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:51.920
<v Speaker 1>House in the tenth Embassy. Is that the process we're

0:27:51.960 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 1>talking about when there were attempts to set Old Parliament

0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:58.680
<v Speaker 1>a light or that's how it was reported something?

0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:00.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And as I'm sure you from the photo I

0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:03.680
<v Speaker 2>sent you, my two boys were right there front and center.

0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:06.639
<v Speaker 1>So how did you discover that?

0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:10.760
<v Speaker 2>I believe it was my daughter called me and said

0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:14.359
<v Speaker 2>because I'd actually made contact with Helen's mum, who I

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:16.560
<v Speaker 2>got on very well with, and I said, I don't

0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:18.600
<v Speaker 2>want the children going to Canberra. Yeah, I can't see

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>him to talk any sense into her. I don't want

0:28:20.880 --> 0:28:24.320
<v Speaker 2>them at the protests. They're becoming violent. She said she's

0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:26.560
<v Speaker 2>not there, and I said, I've just had a phone

0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:30.760
<v Speaker 2>call that the kids are there, you know, and I

0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:33.120
<v Speaker 2>remember the words very clearly Gary. I said to her,

0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to take those children away from her.

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and okay, so I can see you concern caught

0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:43.240
<v Speaker 1>up in that environment. I then picking them up and yeah,

0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>as you describe, smelling obviously not being looked after properly. Yeah,

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 1>so what do you do in that situation? Mat?

0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:53.680
<v Speaker 2>I went straight into the nearest police station and said,

0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:57.000
<v Speaker 2>my kids are in Canberra at this stuff. How do

0:28:57.080 --> 0:28:59.720
<v Speaker 2>I get them back? And I'm sure you probably remember

0:28:59.800 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 2>from policing days nobody likes being on the front desk.

0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Would have been ducking for ducking for cover.

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and so pretty much got what can we do?

0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Contact the Federal police. So I did that and they

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:17.240
<v Speaker 2>said we're aware that there's the kids were actually staying

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.640
<v Speaker 2>at that time in the ten embassy down there. More

0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and more stuff was, you know, people are ringing me

0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and saying I'm seeing your kids on TV and things

0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:28.959
<v Speaker 2>like that. It just got to a I started the panic,

0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I guess, so I wrung the federal police. They said, yeah,

0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 2>we were aware of these kids in amongst this. What

0:29:35.360 --> 0:29:37.280
<v Speaker 2>do you want us to do? Just storm on in

0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:39.080
<v Speaker 2>there and pick your kids up? Yeah?

0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, who else do you go to if you can't

0:29:42.080 --> 0:29:43.120
<v Speaker 1>get to the police? Yeah?

0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:45.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I want to make clear from the start, Garrier,

0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not here to bash the police, the local police

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:52.280
<v Speaker 2>and the police that I've dealt with throughout this, and

0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:57.600
<v Speaker 2>I've dealt with a lot. Yeah, have been fantastic. I've

0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:00.320
<v Speaker 2>had police that have been off duty coming reach me

0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:03.440
<v Speaker 2>in the shops multiple times and just ask how the

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:05.880
<v Speaker 2>boys are going, because they've been on the journey with us,

0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:10.240
<v Speaker 2>they know how crazy it's gotten. And yeah, I appreciate that.

0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:13.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, how did you make the reconnection with the kids?

0:30:14.080 --> 0:30:15.720
<v Speaker 1>How did you get the boys? Boys back?

0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:20.920
<v Speaker 2>So after that, I went to the nearest lawyer's office

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.959
<v Speaker 2>in town Lucky. I stumbled into a good one and

0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I said, what do I do? This is what's going on.

0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:29.880
<v Speaker 2>They said, you know, have you got the money for

0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>It's expensive, as lawyers are, and I said, yeah, I'll

0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:37.440
<v Speaker 2>find the money. You know, what do we do? How

0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.120
<v Speaker 2>do we How do I get my children back? I

0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:43.760
<v Speaker 2>was told pretty much it's very difficult, particularly if you're

0:30:43.800 --> 0:30:46.720
<v Speaker 2>a dad trying to get the kids back from the mum.

0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 2>And I did an initial interview again. At this stage

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:53.000
<v Speaker 2>I only knew little bits and pieces. I didn't know

0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot. And then fast forward from there to east

0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:00.520
<v Speaker 2>of school holidays. The two boys come to stay with me,

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:03.920
<v Speaker 2>and my eldest son said, Dad, I'm not going back.

0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 1>How old was he at this.

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Stage he would have been twelve and a half. Their

0:31:08.600 --> 0:31:12.200
<v Speaker 2>adounts he was in high school, first year of high school.

0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:15.600
<v Speaker 2>So this is where it gets a bit dark every

0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:18.960
<v Speaker 2>but he said to me what was going on. He's

0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:23.440
<v Speaker 2>a super intelligent young kid, so in order to prove

0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>to me what was going on, he was taking photos

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:31.520
<v Speaker 2>of everything. He was storing, like dropping pins on maps.

0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:34.840
<v Speaker 2>We stayed here, we slept here in the car, We

0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:38.360
<v Speaker 2>did this sort of thing, and he said, if you

0:31:38.400 --> 0:31:42.040
<v Speaker 2>make me go back, I've got my bus pass. Instead

0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:44.560
<v Speaker 2>of getting on the bus pass to go to school,

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to use it to go to Central station.

0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 2>I know the train timetables. I've saved some money up,

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to jump on a train and I'll keep

0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.400
<v Speaker 2>doing that until you let me stay. He even looked

0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:57.600
<v Speaker 2>up this how smart as he looked up and worked

0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:00.160
<v Speaker 2>out where the phone box was out the front, and

0:32:00.200 --> 0:32:01.440
<v Speaker 2>he said, I know, I've I ring you at ten

0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:03.680
<v Speaker 2>o'clock at night from that phone box. You'll turn up.

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>So he had a lot going on in his mind,

0:32:08.760 --> 0:32:11.160
<v Speaker 2>and too much for a twelve year old.

0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:14.479
<v Speaker 1>Want your kid's going through that, But good on him

0:32:14.520 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 1>to see, yea that he needed to get get away.

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:20.760
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, okay, so you're presented with that, what do

0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:23.240
<v Speaker 1>you do? And I asked this genuinely because it's such

0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:25.320
<v Speaker 1>a difficult situation to find yourself in.

0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:29.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, mate, I just I'm a strong believer in gut instinct,

0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>So I just whether the things I thought things were

0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:34.040
<v Speaker 2>right or wrong at the time, I went off what

0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:37.440
<v Speaker 2>my gut told me to do. A little interesting side

0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:41.920
<v Speaker 2>story is that my son went fishing at the local

0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:45.720
<v Speaker 2>wharf and a kid was intimidating him. He was trying

0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 2>to pick up his gear and get out of there.

0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Quit he dropped the phone with all the evidence in

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:54.240
<v Speaker 2>the water. It was a stormy day. You couldn't see

0:32:54.480 --> 0:32:56.320
<v Speaker 2>in the bottom of the water. I'm thinking, of great,

0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>we've lost a lot. As the lawyers were telling me,

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's a lot of stuff that will help

0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:05.440
<v Speaker 2>in there. So I went to work and I was

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:07.760
<v Speaker 2>telling the boys at work about it. And when the

0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 2>boys said, I know, guy, that's a diver. When you

0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>see you'll go and have a look. I says, it's

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 2>been in the water overnight, there's been a storm. He goes,

0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:16.840
<v Speaker 2>you can't, can't to give it a go. Thank god

0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:20.640
<v Speaker 2>he did, so I get I call this young kid up.

0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:23.400
<v Speaker 2>He goes down and closes the wharf off. Whether that

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:25.520
<v Speaker 2>was legal or not, I don't know, and does a

0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:30.080
<v Speaker 2>grid search in probably five foot of water back and

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.240
<v Speaker 2>forwards with his hands. He said he had no visibility,

0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.360
<v Speaker 2>couldn't find the phone. I said, thanks for trying. You

0:33:37.400 --> 0:33:40.880
<v Speaker 2>know it's going to sling him some cash. And he

0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:43.240
<v Speaker 2>said what color was it again? And I said green.

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm color blind, Gary, so I'm guessing colors. What happened

0:33:47.520 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 2>was my son was still there with me. He turned

0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:51.640
<v Speaker 2>around and said, Dad, look back of the phone case

0:33:51.760 --> 0:33:55.239
<v Speaker 2>is white. The diver said, give me a second. He

0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 2>goes down and what he thought was a bit of

0:33:56.840 --> 0:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>rubbish lodged in the barnacles on the side of that wharf.

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:04.120
<v Speaker 2>It was my son's phone, So you know, the universe

0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:06.480
<v Speaker 2>helped us a bit there. But we took that phone

0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:09.640
<v Speaker 2>to her phone fixed place and they were able to

0:34:09.920 --> 0:34:11.920
<v Speaker 2>abstract extract all of.

0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 1>The information information. Okay, well that that would have helped.

0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:19.520
<v Speaker 1>So you've got evidence that the way the children have

0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:23.239
<v Speaker 1>been treated in their life. You've engaged a solicitor. What

0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:25.439
<v Speaker 1>is the next step the family law court?

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is. I was told to go hard early.

0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:32.640
<v Speaker 2>I had Initially I had a family law solicitor. Then

0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:36.600
<v Speaker 2>they said, no, you're not a specialist. That specialist then

0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:39.200
<v Speaker 2>said we're going to need a barrister as well. And

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, he goes your bank account and the family car,

0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:44.640
<v Speaker 2>whatever I can get rid of.

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:47.239
<v Speaker 1>It's horrendous. It's horrendous.

0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:49.880
<v Speaker 2>How Yeah, but how do you put a price on

0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:50.400
<v Speaker 2>your children?

0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's the thing, Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah.

0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:56.799
<v Speaker 2>So what happened then was we had what they call

0:34:56.840 --> 0:35:02.280
<v Speaker 2>it an initial hearing and going back in the story,

0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:05.000
<v Speaker 2>what happened was my youngest son wasn't sure whether he

0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:08.799
<v Speaker 2>wanted to stay. So I made the decision again one

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:11.120
<v Speaker 2>I regret to let him go back to his mother.

0:35:11.239 --> 0:35:13.840
<v Speaker 2>So you can imagine how that went. When I'm supposed

0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:16.759
<v Speaker 2>to be dropping two children back, I dropped one back.

0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:19.960
<v Speaker 2>He jumps out of the carr and says, my brother's

0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:24.200
<v Speaker 2>not coming back. This what's happened? I left there. This

0:35:24.400 --> 0:35:29.560
<v Speaker 2>was up in Sydney. I went to my now wife's place,

0:35:30.400 --> 0:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and shortly after I get a phone call from the

0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:37.680
<v Speaker 2>cops that are looking for a child that's kidnapped, a

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:40.840
<v Speaker 2>child that I've kidnapped. I said, that's not the case,

0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:43.120
<v Speaker 2>my son. I've been a little bit old. By this

0:35:43.160 --> 0:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>stage is a bit cloudy, but basically I was told

0:35:46.160 --> 0:35:48.120
<v Speaker 2>that children can sort of vote with their feet by

0:35:48.160 --> 0:35:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the time they're around fourteen. I think we're edging up

0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:57.200
<v Speaker 2>towards that. And yeah, that just started what's now becoming

0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:57.800
<v Speaker 2>a nightmare.

0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:03.040
<v Speaker 1>And so, okay, so there's complaints. I'm assuming from Helen

0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:07.759
<v Speaker 1>that the child's been kidnapped, and yeah, how does it

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:11.000
<v Speaker 1>feel been accused of kidnapping your kids?

0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:15.560
<v Speaker 2>Terrible? Yeah, you know, I've been accused of a number

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:17.120
<v Speaker 2>of things, but genocide.

0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, are you been accused of genocide?

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:25.839
<v Speaker 2>The genocide? Yeah? Alienation, parental alienation, yeah, just.

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.280
<v Speaker 1>And these all the type of allegations that came against

0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 1>you from Helen and whoever.

0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And what I'd like to point to Gary and

0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:37.759
<v Speaker 2>I had police say it to me, is that in

0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:40.919
<v Speaker 2>the nearly four years this has been going on, there

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 2>has not been a nasty text message from me. Ye,

0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:48.239
<v Speaker 2>any allegation I've made, I've been able to back up

0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:53.880
<v Speaker 2>with facts and yeah, it's not it's not good, but

0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:56.399
<v Speaker 2>I've developed a pretty thick skin through this.

0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.279
<v Speaker 1>It's a smart way the plant Scott. I think a

0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:03.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of people make this mistaken, especially blokes react with

0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:07.520
<v Speaker 1>anger and frustration. Then it comes back to buy it.

0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.080
<v Speaker 1>So if you can take a step back, keep the

0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 1>emotion out of it as hard as it is, yeah,

0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:14.000
<v Speaker 1>it's beneficial.

0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can tell you I did a lot of

0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:21.160
<v Speaker 2>soul surging through this. And I don't say this lightly,

0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:24.600
<v Speaker 2>but I asked myself where how far I'm prepared to go?

0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:28.280
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not somebody that makes threats. I don't believe.

0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:31.280
<v Speaker 2>Don't do what you're not prepared to carry out. But

0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:34.360
<v Speaker 2>in the case of what those people have put myself

0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:37.120
<v Speaker 2>and my family through, I'm prepared to open the gates

0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to hell and drag them in there with me, simple

0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:39.680
<v Speaker 2>as that.

0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:43.120
<v Speaker 1>I understand that from a father's point of view. Okay,

0:37:43.520 --> 0:37:48.359
<v Speaker 1>your nightmare is starting to play out. Yeah, just break

0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 1>it down what you've gone through, because I know it's

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:51.839
<v Speaker 1>been a hell of a.

0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:59.359
<v Speaker 2>So what happened was we returned home Somewhere shortly after that,

0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:03.080
<v Speaker 2>the courts decided that the boys couldn't be separated. So

0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:05.719
<v Speaker 2>what they did was put both the boys with me.

0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:10.800
<v Speaker 2>At this stage, the youngest son had been turned against

0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.480
<v Speaker 2>the eldest son, which is hard to watch.

0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:16.719
<v Speaker 1>What what what sort of things in what way?

0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:19.840
<v Speaker 2>So he was told his brother was a snitch, that

0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:23.719
<v Speaker 2>he'd caused the family break up. I found out the

0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:25.680
<v Speaker 2>change of heart to move to Sydney was that the

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:28.480
<v Speaker 2>boys were told that they mum was going to sell

0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:34.160
<v Speaker 2>all of their stuff, you know, kids stuff, PlayStation Yeah yeah,

0:38:35.120 --> 0:38:37.600
<v Speaker 2>And you know, like I said, the oldest one was

0:38:37.640 --> 0:38:39.120
<v Speaker 2>worried that I wouldn't believe him. I was going to

0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:42.600
<v Speaker 2>send him back. And his fear was, you know, if

0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I tell Dad all of this has been going on,

0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:47.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to mean a lot of trouble. Yeah.

0:38:48.600 --> 0:38:50.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you've got the kids.

0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:52.320
<v Speaker 2>So what happened was always in the Narra at the

0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:54.359
<v Speaker 2>lawyer's office, and they said go and get your son.

0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:59.279
<v Speaker 2>My son was in Sydney, his mother was in the

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:04.120
<v Speaker 2>next street, and three and a half hours away on

0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:08.799
<v Speaker 2>a Friday afternoon in traffic. So yeah, I did what

0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:11.279
<v Speaker 2>I did to get up there in time. When I

0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:14.160
<v Speaker 2>get there, I noticed not only Helen there, but a

0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:17.000
<v Speaker 2>couple of the chaps, one of the chaps we've mentioned

0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:21.040
<v Speaker 2>before and another one. And I was informed by the

0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:22.880
<v Speaker 2>school that they'd made several attempts to get in and

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:23.399
<v Speaker 2>get my son.

0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:28.200
<v Speaker 1>So when just to clarify, the person that we mentioned before,

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:31.600
<v Speaker 1>was a person identifying as a sovereign citizen was in

0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:32.400
<v Speaker 1>the car with Helen.

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and actually further than that was identifying as a

0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.080
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement officer. You've soon in the.

0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Payork and you've traveled from the South Coast up to

0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:45.480
<v Speaker 1>up to Sydney to pick your younger child up. When

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:48.680
<v Speaker 1>you've got to the got to the school that the

0:39:48.719 --> 0:39:51.120
<v Speaker 1>schools informed you that Helen and.

0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:53.960
<v Speaker 2>Three other two other blokes.

0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Two blokes have been there and trying to retrieve him.

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, against according junction. So it was an injunction

0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 2>made that day preventing her from going to the school.

0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:06.480
<v Speaker 1>How did the school handle it?

0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:14.120
<v Speaker 2>So backtracking again, I wasn't down as a contact at

0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.360
<v Speaker 2>the school, so when she put the kids into that school,

0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:17.160
<v Speaker 2>they weren't aware.

0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:19.920
<v Speaker 1>So you had no rights or powers you.

0:40:19.920 --> 0:40:24.040
<v Speaker 2>Can have like first second and I believe a third contact. Yeah,

0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:26.680
<v Speaker 2>I believe I was the third contact. But there was

0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:30.360
<v Speaker 2>no phone number. So when my kids weren't attending school

0:40:30.400 --> 0:40:32.239
<v Speaker 2>and they were going to list more and stuff, their

0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 2>attendance was somewhere around the fifty percent mark. I was

0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:38.600
<v Speaker 2>unaware of that. They yeah, they weren't telling me that

0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:41.919
<v Speaker 2>the school hadn't called me. I thought everything was going

0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:44.319
<v Speaker 2>along rosie for them. You know, they seemed to enjoy

0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:48.160
<v Speaker 2>living in Sydney, and yeah, then I find that out

0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and I've you know, Principal's got my son in the

0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 2>school and told me to get up there and get

0:40:56.120 --> 0:40:58.600
<v Speaker 2>him all on the way there. When I've seen these guys,

0:40:58.640 --> 0:41:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I thought I better ring the cops. I don't want

0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:02.160
<v Speaker 2>to have a punch on in front of my son

0:41:02.600 --> 0:41:04.040
<v Speaker 2>out in the front of a primary school. It's not

0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:08.680
<v Speaker 2>a good look. So I called the cops. They turned up.

0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:11.759
<v Speaker 2>They met me in the side street and I said

0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:14.279
<v Speaker 2>how is this going to work? And apparently I was

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.239
<v Speaker 2>informed by the school at once. Obviously once he gets

0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:18.560
<v Speaker 2>to the edge of the school property, he's not the

0:41:18.600 --> 0:41:22.840
<v Speaker 2>school's problem. And I just could see that going pair shaped.

0:41:24.160 --> 0:41:26.920
<v Speaker 2>So I was in communication with this principle I'd never met,

0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, who was taking a big risk in doing

0:41:30.239 --> 0:41:32.080
<v Speaker 2>what he was doing. But he was, you know, he'd

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:35.879
<v Speaker 2>been in communication with the boys are given like independent

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:40.239
<v Speaker 2>children's lawyers, and they look after their journey through the

0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:43.040
<v Speaker 2>courts and their interest. Yeah, so I don't know it

0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>was that person. Somebody had spoken to the school and

0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:49.320
<v Speaker 2>they're aware that he wasn't to go home with mum. Initially,

0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>if she was told she could take some stuff and

0:41:52.040 --> 0:41:57.560
<v Speaker 2>say goodbye. But because she espoused the sovereign citizen ideologies

0:41:57.800 --> 0:42:03.080
<v Speaker 2>during the court, she was preventing by injunction and she

0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:06.600
<v Speaker 2>doesn't do no Gary.

0:42:05.480 --> 0:42:09.080
<v Speaker 1>So the sovereign citizen stuff started to come out. She

0:42:09.200 --> 0:42:10.279
<v Speaker 1>was very much embttered in.

0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:14.440
<v Speaker 2>That blue system ideology at that stage. Yeah, right in

0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:15.000
<v Speaker 2>the thick of it.

0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Now, the group that she was involved in, do you

0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:19.239
<v Speaker 1>want to tell us a little bit to or as

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:22.200
<v Speaker 1>I understand that CO found that the group that referred

0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:23.680
<v Speaker 1>to as NDA. Do you want to tell us a

0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 1>little bit?

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so in Darker dalai Estralla so I think I'm

0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:31.880
<v Speaker 2>pronouncing it right. Was a group that they formed whilst

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:35.920
<v Speaker 2>she was on the run, and they were basically offering

0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:39.960
<v Speaker 2>a life to people outside of the life the rest

0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:41.719
<v Speaker 2>of us live, you know, in the community we live,

0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:43.920
<v Speaker 2>and they were recruiting at the time. I think up

0:42:43.960 --> 0:42:47.520
<v Speaker 2>through NRANG somewhere up north there somewhat some of the

0:42:47.560 --> 0:42:50.560
<v Speaker 2>footage I saw of that was the hell and I

0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:53.200
<v Speaker 2>knew that, like, you know, if you had friends around

0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:55.600
<v Speaker 2>or a dinner party or something, she would take over

0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the dinner party. So I saw that part of her

0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:01.040
<v Speaker 2>personality within it. The stuff she was talking about was

0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:04.040
<v Speaker 2>completely new to me at that stage. I hadn't researched

0:43:04.160 --> 0:43:09.280
<v Speaker 2>any of it, and I just found it difficult to watch.

0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I had both of the boys in my custody, and

0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:17.080
<v Speaker 2>what she did, I believe has formed this group to

0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:21.320
<v Speaker 2>try and take the boys back and garner support.

0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, we're going to we're going to break down all

0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 1>the things that happened to you. And it's quite quite

0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:33.680
<v Speaker 1>frightening what took place. But just the NDA group and

0:43:33.719 --> 0:43:35.839
<v Speaker 1>this is. I did a bit of research on it too,

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:37.319
<v Speaker 1>just trying to get a sense of it. And this

0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:41.719
<v Speaker 1>is how it's described. Positions itself as a movement reclaiming

0:43:41.800 --> 0:43:46.440
<v Speaker 1>indigenous sovereignty and customary law governance over Australia, challenging the

0:43:46.480 --> 0:43:50.720
<v Speaker 1>existing governmental authority and fostering the communal peaceful living based

0:43:51.040 --> 0:43:54.719
<v Speaker 1>on the ancestral traditions and natural law. So that's a

0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:59.640
<v Speaker 1>narrative in which they describe that in itself sounds relatively

0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:06.480
<v Speaker 1>and there's an alignment to indigenous, the indigenous sovereignty and

0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:09.000
<v Speaker 1>all that, But it's a lot more complicated than that.

0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Isn't Yeah, it is, Yeah, And you know, I'm not

0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:15.439
<v Speaker 2>happy with the fact that they aligned it with the indigenous. Yeah,

0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:18.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't know what words to use for that, Gary,

0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:24.520
<v Speaker 2>but it's just she's not indigenous. Yeah, my children aren't indigenous.

0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:28.040
<v Speaker 2>She claims they are. I've been told that you can

0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:32.359
<v Speaker 2>be invited into a tribe through an elder. I don't

0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:36.320
<v Speaker 2>know if that's happened or not. I just don't believe

0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>if you're not indigenous, don't claim you are. Well, it turns.

0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:43.120
<v Speaker 1>By going down that path that claims a little bit

0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:47.160
<v Speaker 1>of legitimacy, I would suggest by aligning to Indigenous issues

0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:50.920
<v Speaker 1>and there would be people that are sympathetic to that

0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:55.000
<v Speaker 1>type of thing. I've just further details, and again because

0:44:55.160 --> 0:44:57.920
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be talking in depth about this organization,

0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:01.560
<v Speaker 1>so I think it's worthwhile probably further detail about it.

0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Organization that sovereignty based on Indigenous customary tribal law, declaring

0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:12.600
<v Speaker 1>itself the lawful authority over the land unofficially known as Australia.

0:45:12.719 --> 0:45:16.359
<v Speaker 1>It promotes the idea that purporting Australian government is illegitimate

0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.840
<v Speaker 1>and has ordered it to stand down. So let's just

0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:23.400
<v Speaker 1>the Australian government is illegitimate and has ordered it to

0:45:23.520 --> 0:45:27.520
<v Speaker 1>stand down, urging people to recognize themselves as self governing

0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 1>under ancestral laws and unity with a demilitarized zone. The

0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 1>group operates the Superior Court of the People of Namdhaka

0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:43.520
<v Speaker 1>Dahalis Australias, a court adhering to ancient law Speltre adjudicated

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:47.080
<v Speaker 1>by senior law elders, and seeks to establish peace, harmony

0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:50.440
<v Speaker 1>and respect for natural and ancestral law among the land's

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:54.120
<v Speaker 1>original bloodline descendants and others who choose to join the

0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:58.800
<v Speaker 1>communal sovereignty. Now there's a lot in that. The things

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.360
<v Speaker 1>that jump out at me, the things that, yeah, the

0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:06.160
<v Speaker 1>Australian government is illegitimate, and the fact that they the

0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:10.200
<v Speaker 1>group operates the Superior Court of the People. Yes, that's

0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:11.279
<v Speaker 1>a concern, isn't it.

0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:15.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I've even heard claims to be above the

0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:18.360
<v Speaker 2>High Court of Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:46:18.600 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So you've got the two men and Helen out

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.200
<v Speaker 1>the school. You've called the cops. Yeah, you're in contact

0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:27.880
<v Speaker 1>with the principal. And did you manage to get the

0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:28.319
<v Speaker 1>hand over?

0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:28.640
<v Speaker 3>Did you?

0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:30.759
<v Speaker 2>The cops turned up and got called off on an

0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:35.680
<v Speaker 2>urgent job. Yeah, so, no cops. It was now dark

0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:40.279
<v Speaker 2>and just before I got my son, the cops and

0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:43.000
<v Speaker 2>other lot of cops arrived. I'd made several phone calls

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:47.040
<v Speaker 2>and while they were talking to Helen and her mates,

0:46:48.040 --> 0:46:51.120
<v Speaker 2>the principal slipped my son out a side gate. You've

0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:54.680
<v Speaker 2>got to imagine he hasn't seen me for quite some time. Yeah,

0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:56.240
<v Speaker 2>he doesn't even know why I'm there.

0:46:56.400 --> 0:46:56.600
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:58.600
<v Speaker 2>So I'm having to play as I've had to do

0:46:58.640 --> 0:46:59.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot lot through this.

0:47:00.280 --> 0:47:04.120
<v Speaker 1>And wouldn't under surprise and the call order or that

0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:05.680
<v Speaker 1>surprise Dad's here.

0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:09.200
<v Speaker 2>You're coming to my place for the weekend. Yeah, how

0:47:09.200 --> 0:47:09.600
<v Speaker 2>did that.

0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:12.240
<v Speaker 1>Go down between you and him?

0:47:12.600 --> 0:47:17.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you're familiar with the Dukes a hazard, that's

0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:20.200
<v Speaker 2>pretty much how I drove to get out of Sydney. Yeah,

0:47:20.840 --> 0:47:22.960
<v Speaker 2>flat stick and then kind of made it like a

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:24.000
<v Speaker 2>bit of a game for him.

0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:24.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I just did not want any confrontation in front of him.

0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:31.560
<v Speaker 2>We get him down, and then the next day we

0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:33.719
<v Speaker 2>have to go and get him a school uniform to

0:47:33.840 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 2>start at school. So I left my oldest son in

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:40.360
<v Speaker 2>the house with my mother. We took him to the shops,

0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:43.400
<v Speaker 2>which is we call it town. It's the nearest town

0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 2>and it was probably thirty five minute drive. We're at

0:47:48.719 --> 0:47:53.000
<v Speaker 2>the shops and my youngest son rings and he's petrified.

0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:55.360
<v Speaker 2>He said, mums here trying to get him in the house.

0:47:56.520 --> 0:47:58.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, call Triple zero. He said, I've called them

0:47:58.800 --> 0:48:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and they've told me don't open the door law until

0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:06.360
<v Speaker 2>you get here. As you'll find through through this, there's

0:48:07.640 --> 0:48:10.200
<v Speaker 2>what I believes two versions of the truth. There's the

0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:13.239
<v Speaker 2>truth as I see it and I lived it, and

0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>there's what Helen Delaney says and her claims she wasn't

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to get into the house for me, for my

0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:25.120
<v Speaker 2>son to go into. It's, like I said, a smart kid.

0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:29.479
<v Speaker 2>He took his grandmother, who's pretty frail, and himself into

0:48:29.480 --> 0:48:31.320
<v Speaker 2>the only room in the house. I had a locking door,

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:35.239
<v Speaker 2>locked the door and called Triple zero. I beat the

0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:39.279
<v Speaker 2>police to the house that day, convinced him to open

0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:42.040
<v Speaker 2>the door. Shortly after they turned up, Helen wasn't there,

0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:45.000
<v Speaker 2>and then she returned while they were there, and I

0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.239
<v Speaker 2>think that was the first time she was arrested. She

0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:50.360
<v Speaker 2>was claiming she had court orders to have the kids.

0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:55.000
<v Speaker 1>And these claims. Is that in keeping with that she

0:48:55.040 --> 0:48:58.279
<v Speaker 1>doesn't recognize the law, our law of the land and

0:48:58.400 --> 0:48:59.600
<v Speaker 1>she's got her own law with.

0:48:59.640 --> 0:49:04.959
<v Speaker 2>The Yeah, the the orders that cost me just shy

0:49:05.120 --> 0:49:08.120
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand dollars have put in place and a

0:49:08.120 --> 0:49:13.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of stress. Yeah, they're void in her mind, they're void. Yeah,

0:49:13.560 --> 0:49:14.320
<v Speaker 2>they don't exist.

0:49:15.120 --> 0:49:19.320
<v Speaker 1>It's hard to argue or being in conflict with someone

0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:23.120
<v Speaker 1>that's got that type of attitude. You know, like if

0:49:23.440 --> 0:49:25.920
<v Speaker 1>someone once said to me, if you're arguing with an idiot, too,

0:49:26.000 --> 0:49:29.600
<v Speaker 1>idiots are arguing. Yes, it certainly comes in the play.

0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 1>How do you this person's not going to abide by

0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:37.919
<v Speaker 1>the court ruling because in their fanciful mind, the court

0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:39.200
<v Speaker 1>doesn't apply to them.

0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it. And literally all I have then to

0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:44.120
<v Speaker 2>protect my children is a piece of paper.

0:49:44.320 --> 0:49:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, okay, Well you're painting a pretty scary scenario

0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:53.799
<v Speaker 1>when they're troubling scenario when you talk and what price

0:49:53.800 --> 0:49:56.080
<v Speaker 1>do you put to look after your kids? But one

0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:58.480
<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand dollars that's not one hundred thousand dollars you've

0:49:58.480 --> 0:49:59.360
<v Speaker 1>got in your back pocket.

0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:01.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't driver Ferrari, I can tell you that.

0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:05.560
<v Speaker 1>And all the stress associated with worrying about your kids,

0:50:05.560 --> 0:50:08.759
<v Speaker 1>seeing your kids, picking up their kids, and thinking they're

0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:11.319
<v Speaker 1>not being looked after properly. But I suppose at this

0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:14.080
<v Speaker 1>point in time, the systems working for you, the police,

0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:16.799
<v Speaker 1>have supported your the orders are in place. But now

0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:19.000
<v Speaker 1>you're dealing with a situation that, as you said, for

0:50:19.040 --> 0:50:21.920
<v Speaker 1>all the money I've spent to get that order as

0:50:21.960 --> 0:50:25.240
<v Speaker 1>a piece of paper that someone doesn't even acknowledge or recognize.

0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:27.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, mate, And I believe at one stage she was

0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:33.400
<v Speaker 2>contacting three to five different LAC's basically claiming I'd stolen

0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:37.320
<v Speaker 2>kidding up my children. I think the word that was

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:38.880
<v Speaker 2>getting used, was child trafficked?

0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:43.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Now is this she's very much embedded in the

0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Sovereign Citizen movement at this time. It was all this

0:50:47.480 --> 0:50:51.520
<v Speaker 1>stuff that was coming from her. You've described how she's changed,

0:50:51.680 --> 0:50:54.440
<v Speaker 1>But is this the ideology that she was now believing

0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:55.720
<v Speaker 1>of believing.

0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Or living living branding?

0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And like I said, that's a loose freedom

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:04.120
<v Speaker 2>fighters is another term that gets thrown around, you know,

0:51:04.200 --> 0:51:07.280
<v Speaker 2>whatever name you put on it. If you've got people

0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:11.640
<v Speaker 2>willing to help you kidnap somebody else's children, we're not

0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:14.440
<v Speaker 2>playing around you. You know, we're at the serious end

0:51:14.480 --> 0:51:14.919
<v Speaker 2>of the game.

0:51:17.640 --> 0:51:21.279
<v Speaker 1>So in that incident, she's out the front, you've called

0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:24.520
<v Speaker 1>the police, she got taken away, arrested, and then I'm

0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:26.439
<v Speaker 1>assuming not charged at that point in time.

0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:28.560
<v Speaker 2>No, And I think there was like an interim ABO

0:51:28.760 --> 0:51:29.400
<v Speaker 2>put in place.

0:51:29.520 --> 0:51:32.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so this is the first of the AVOs that

0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:35.120
<v Speaker 1>have come in the place. And what were the directions

0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:36.160
<v Speaker 1>of the av were?

0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:39.600
<v Speaker 2>I think just the basics. You can't come within five

0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:44.319
<v Speaker 2>hundred meters of myself where I go to work, that

0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:45.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of stuff.

0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:47.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and tell us about the breaches.

0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:53.799
<v Speaker 2>The breaches, so you know, very hard as a man

0:51:54.840 --> 0:51:57.960
<v Speaker 2>when you talk about the domestic violence space, it is

0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:00.520
<v Speaker 2>predominantly women and children that have spoken about and so

0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:02.960
<v Speaker 2>it should be because that's where the worst of it

0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:05.799
<v Speaker 2>is that I see. But there is men that go

0:52:05.880 --> 0:52:11.200
<v Speaker 2>through this. The violence part doesn't have to be physical violence.

0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:15.200
<v Speaker 2>It can just be unwanted attention. And we were getting

0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:20.840
<v Speaker 2>quite a bit of that, text messages, phone calls, random

0:52:20.840 --> 0:52:23.720
<v Speaker 2>people I didn't know, doing welfare checks on the boys,

0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:26.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I want to check their safe, this sort

0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:26.719
<v Speaker 2>of thing.

0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:29.759
<v Speaker 1>So, and these are random peo people I've never heard of,

0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.600
<v Speaker 1>but people trying to make out that they've got a

0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:36.560
<v Speaker 1>right to check this or making a full representation of

0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:37.960
<v Speaker 1>who they are, that type of thing.

0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, involving themselves in my children's lives, you know. But

0:52:41.480 --> 0:52:43.759
<v Speaker 2>this was going on at the police station. It's one

0:52:43.760 --> 0:52:46.680
<v Speaker 2>of their tactics. They just flood you with phone calls,

0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:48.080
<v Speaker 2>flood you with emails.

0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:50.160
<v Speaker 1>When you say it was going on at the police station,

0:52:50.880 --> 0:52:51.279
<v Speaker 1>what do you.

0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Mean asking for welfare checks?

0:52:53.840 --> 0:52:57.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, they're contacting the police stations, say they've got

0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:58.080
<v Speaker 1>concerns for the kids.

0:52:58.160 --> 0:53:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So my my senses were heightened already at this stage.

0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:05.840
<v Speaker 2>But we'd watched the movie with the kids. Remember, and

0:53:05.880 --> 0:53:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm playing two roles, he protector of my children and

0:53:09.239 --> 0:53:10.880
<v Speaker 2>dad yeah, and.

0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Trying to shield your kids from all the drama.

0:53:13.200 --> 0:53:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they want to watch movies together, do you know,

0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:21.279
<v Speaker 2>very difficult to switch between both roles. To this day,

0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:24.759
<v Speaker 2>it's very difficult. So we'd all watch the movie. We're

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:29.000
<v Speaker 2>asleep on the lounge. Yeah, got the fireplace. Everything's going well,

0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:32.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, and next minute, bang on my door, like

0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:35.440
<v Speaker 2>you would see with those raids that you see on

0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:40.280
<v Speaker 2>tap drug dealers houses, bashing on the door. It's raining.

0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Open the door. There's a full driver of the spotlight

0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:46.359
<v Speaker 2>on the house, saying their police they want to come in.

0:53:47.360 --> 0:53:49.000
<v Speaker 2>I was in a bit of a Day's opened the door.

0:53:50.120 --> 0:53:53.440
<v Speaker 2>My poor mum, she's crying at the time. She was frightened.

0:53:55.480 --> 0:53:58.560
<v Speaker 2>We said what's going on? They said where's the kids?

0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:01.520
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, here and that to me, We've

0:54:01.520 --> 0:54:03.800
<v Speaker 2>been told they're locked in a cage. I think was

0:54:03.840 --> 0:54:06.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the remarks from the copper. And I was like, uh,

0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, you know we've had calls from this person,

0:54:11.760 --> 0:54:15.040
<v Speaker 2>which was the mother, and I said, well, there's court

0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:17.880
<v Speaker 2>orders in place, they're meant to be they are safe.

0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:21.080
<v Speaker 2>Don't quote me on the number, Gary, but I think

0:54:21.080 --> 0:54:24.000
<v Speaker 2>we had nearly twenty seven of those twenty five to

0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:24.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty seven.

0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Well fare, okay, Yeah, it's just harassment, isn't it.

0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and by ringing and.

0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:33.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying police harassment, they're going to follow up

0:54:33.680 --> 0:54:35.040
<v Speaker 1>when there's a complaint.

0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:36.960
<v Speaker 2>No, the police were good in the end. Like what

0:54:37.040 --> 0:54:40.000
<v Speaker 2>happened was you got different shifts. Yeah, so you know,

0:54:40.400 --> 0:54:42.640
<v Speaker 2>one job didn't you know, how busy they get. One

0:54:42.719 --> 0:54:45.719
<v Speaker 2>job didn't get picked up. Then a different car crew

0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:47.759
<v Speaker 2>pick up the job, they come to the house. So

0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:51.440
<v Speaker 2>it was happening day and night. I sort of started

0:54:51.480 --> 0:54:53.560
<v Speaker 2>with going in to speak to the local sergeant and

0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:55.359
<v Speaker 2>then I sort of bumped it up, you know.

0:54:55.760 --> 0:54:58.439
<v Speaker 1>And eventually the police, the local area police would start

0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:01.200
<v Speaker 1>to understand that.

0:55:00.200 --> 0:55:03.799
<v Speaker 2>The correct But where we had an issue was she

0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:07.080
<v Speaker 2>was calling LAC's up in Sydney. So you've got I

0:55:07.120 --> 0:55:10.880
<v Speaker 2>believe Inspector level up there saying we've had the phone call.

0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:13.680
<v Speaker 1>We need that checked. Yeah, I can see how it

0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:17.480
<v Speaker 1>could be manipulated. And just whining back for a sec too.

0:55:17.520 --> 0:55:20.000
<v Speaker 1>You talked about it's difficult from a man's point of

0:55:20.080 --> 0:55:22.560
<v Speaker 1>view when you're talking domestic violence, and that that doesn't

0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:24.880
<v Speaker 1>have to be physical. It can be the manipulation and

0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:29.320
<v Speaker 1>all that. I think it's healthy having the discussion and that, Yeah,

0:55:29.480 --> 0:55:33.600
<v Speaker 1>the majority of domestic violence are where women are the victim,

0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:37.600
<v Speaker 1>and the domestic violence is a broad term I'm using

0:55:37.640 --> 0:55:41.759
<v Speaker 1>for conflict within a domestic relationship. But this type of

0:55:42.640 --> 0:55:46.719
<v Speaker 1>manipulation and harassment, that's how I would describe what's going on.

0:55:47.120 --> 0:55:49.040
<v Speaker 1>And if you're putting the figure in the twenties, whether

0:55:49.080 --> 0:55:51.439
<v Speaker 1>it's twenty seven or twenty, it doesn't matter. If it's

0:55:51.520 --> 0:55:55.040
<v Speaker 1>just a frequency of it that can be not just

0:55:55.080 --> 0:55:58.839
<v Speaker 1>destroy your life, destroy the kid's life. It's just yeah,

0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:03.960
<v Speaker 1>and not to mention the waste of resource public resources.

0:56:04.000 --> 0:56:07.080
<v Speaker 1>There is an offense called public mischief where you report

0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the crime and find out that's, yeah, it's not not

0:56:10.960 --> 0:56:13.600
<v Speaker 1>true and not justified in your reporting it. I'd be

0:56:13.640 --> 0:56:15.080
<v Speaker 1>sort of looking towards that.

0:56:15.280 --> 0:56:18.120
<v Speaker 2>On one occasion, I had a detective called me. I

0:56:18.120 --> 0:56:21.319
<v Speaker 2>had the kids at Escape Park and he's like, where

0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:24.000
<v Speaker 2>are the kids? I said that with me. I tried

0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:25.840
<v Speaker 2>to walk away from the car to have this conversation

0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:29.320
<v Speaker 2>with him. Unfortunately, bluetooth kicked in and the kids heard

0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:33.160
<v Speaker 2>that conversation. But you know, I started to just realize,

0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:35.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to get anywhere if I kick up

0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:37.640
<v Speaker 2>a stink here. I've got to I've got to work

0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.480
<v Speaker 2>my side of it. So what I did was, I

0:56:40.520 --> 0:56:43.440
<v Speaker 2>was like, where's the nearest police station. I'll meet you there.

0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I'll bring the kids there. And you know that that

0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:50.239
<v Speaker 2>end up happening on that day again. They go through

0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:53.479
<v Speaker 2>sort of these questions, you know, are you okay, yep?

0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:55.879
<v Speaker 2>Who's that? That's dad? Do you want to be here

0:56:55.880 --> 0:57:00.680
<v Speaker 2>with dad? Yes? You know, kids became like they didn't

0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:04.640
<v Speaker 2>like the police very much. And you know that's why

0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I say I won't say anything bad about the police,

0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:09.120
<v Speaker 2>because I had an officer come in, could see the

0:57:09.160 --> 0:57:12.839
<v Speaker 2>kids were distressed about it, grabs a footy from one

0:57:12.840 --> 0:57:14.160
<v Speaker 2>of the boys footies and says you want to go

0:57:14.200 --> 0:57:18.880
<v Speaker 2>in the yard for a kick? That legend still see

0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:22.640
<v Speaker 2>him around town these days. Yeah, that one, That one

0:57:22.960 --> 0:57:27.000
<v Speaker 2>act changed how the boys saw the police. Eventually we

0:57:27.080 --> 0:57:28.840
<v Speaker 2>got to a stage where we were told that we've

0:57:28.880 --> 0:57:32.360
<v Speaker 2>got to come and they said, what we need to

0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:35.080
<v Speaker 2>do is just cite the boys, ask if they're okay,

0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and that's it. So what happened then was we formulated

0:57:37.920 --> 0:57:40.000
<v Speaker 2>that plan. I'd get a phone call from the police.

0:57:40.040 --> 0:57:42.600
<v Speaker 2>We've had another call. Can you walk the boys out

0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:45.040
<v Speaker 2>on the front Franda. They'd walk out and say, you

0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:46.560
<v Speaker 2>know how you're going?

0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:57:47.040 --> 0:57:51.880
<v Speaker 2>All sweet little wave off off they went. We were

0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:55.680
<v Speaker 2>you say the black about black humor? The kids want

0:57:55.680 --> 0:57:57.920
<v Speaker 2>me to sell the car because every cop car in

0:57:57.960 --> 0:58:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the area knows my car and they wave when they

0:58:02.200 --> 0:58:06.240
<v Speaker 2>go past. And teenage boys are a little embarrassed.

0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:08.000
<v Speaker 1>By that, but they want to be hanging out with

0:58:08.040 --> 0:58:08.360
<v Speaker 1>the colt.

0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:13.720
<v Speaker 2>No, yeah, no, And you know, but I think that's

0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:14.360
<v Speaker 2>good policing.

0:58:14.560 --> 0:58:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's community policing. And the fact is that

0:58:18.240 --> 0:58:20.480
<v Speaker 1>it's good to know that the police are going to respond,

0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:22.440
<v Speaker 1>even if they've got their doubts. If there's just that

0:58:22.520 --> 0:58:25.160
<v Speaker 1>one percent that they're going to just check. So they check.

0:58:25.800 --> 0:58:29.000
<v Speaker 1>How do you deal with this like it did? Was

0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:30.600
<v Speaker 1>she breaching the AVA by this?

0:58:30.760 --> 0:58:35.320
<v Speaker 2>No others were doing it? Yeah, And then the breaches

0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:40.120
<v Speaker 2>of the AVO were appearing on so we we had

0:58:40.160 --> 0:58:43.280
<v Speaker 2>to formulate safety plans. Right, So that was drive my

0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:46.640
<v Speaker 2>youngest son to school. There were two separate schools, which

0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:50.440
<v Speaker 2>made that difficult. Driving to school, hand him over in

0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the office. Once that stuff member was on him, he

0:58:53.880 --> 0:58:57.120
<v Speaker 2>basically had someone shadow him around the school for his

0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.920
<v Speaker 2>entire school day. That was done very cleverly by what

0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:04.880
<v Speaker 2>they call an SLSO. And so he's like, oh, you

0:59:04.880 --> 0:59:06.720
<v Speaker 2>know this guy. I won't mention his name, but he's like, oh,

0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:08.680
<v Speaker 2>this guy plays handball with me every day and he

0:59:08.720 --> 0:59:13.040
<v Speaker 2>does his never out of somebody's sight at any That's.

0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:16.040
<v Speaker 1>What had to be put in place because of this.

0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:19.520
<v Speaker 1>So when we talk in the twenties of these inquiries

0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:22.680
<v Speaker 1>or concerns for welfare of your children over what period

0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:23.480
<v Speaker 1>of time was.

0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:29.400
<v Speaker 2>This nearly the whole family court fifteen sixteen months?

0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:34.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, yeah, what's the next step? What do you do?

0:59:34.280 --> 0:59:37.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, you know, I had safety plans put in

0:59:37.880 --> 0:59:41.320
<v Speaker 2>place with the school, so they involved meetings. I then

0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.600
<v Speaker 2>somewhere along the lines, I've gone from full time work

0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:47.560
<v Speaker 2>back to part time. You know, I wouldn't have gotten

0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:51.120
<v Speaker 2>to this point if it wasn't for the support of

0:59:51.160 --> 0:59:53.760
<v Speaker 2>the family that I'm employed by. They let me go

0:59:53.840 --> 0:59:56.040
<v Speaker 2>back to part time work and pretty much anything I've

0:59:56.080 --> 1:00:00.200
<v Speaker 2>had to be at court appearances, school meetings, they just

1:00:00.200 --> 1:00:04.120
<v Speaker 2>facilitated and I can't thank them enough for that. And

1:00:04.720 --> 1:00:08.320
<v Speaker 2>I guess it got to a stage where, if you know,

1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:10.440
<v Speaker 2>the school would take them on the outings to the

1:00:10.560 --> 1:00:13.560
<v Speaker 2>park or bike riding or something. My son couldn't go

1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:15.200
<v Speaker 2>to that unless I was there.

1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:19.880
<v Speaker 1>And this is because of the concerns that they would be.

1:00:20.320 --> 1:00:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I skipped over a bit. So what had

1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:26.680
<v Speaker 2>happened was on one occasion, I'm talking like, you can

1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:30.000
<v Speaker 2>imagine how tightly you hold your kids when this goes on.

1:00:30.560 --> 1:00:32.520
<v Speaker 2>So even for my son to go out and play,

1:00:32.760 --> 1:00:35.320
<v Speaker 2>and I say my son, because the youngest one was

1:00:35.360 --> 1:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the biggest concern. His mum was going to grab him.

1:00:39.000 --> 1:00:41.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, she'd sort of cut the eldest one off

1:00:41.040 --> 1:00:46.000
<v Speaker 2>because he was the snitch in her words. So what

1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:48.480
<v Speaker 2>happened was my son used to go and play with

1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:51.160
<v Speaker 2>one friend down the end of the street. I was

1:00:51.200 --> 1:00:53.880
<v Speaker 2>advised by police you might want to throw a tracker

1:00:53.960 --> 1:00:57.120
<v Speaker 2>on him, and I was like, what do you mean.

1:00:57.440 --> 1:01:01.560
<v Speaker 2>They said, you know, in case he's grabbed, that's difficulty,

1:01:02.480 --> 1:01:03.200
<v Speaker 2>very difficulty.

1:01:03.440 --> 1:01:06.840
<v Speaker 1>And for police to say that that must have some

1:01:06.880 --> 1:01:10.040
<v Speaker 1>reason I rationale behind telling you to put the tracker on.

1:01:10.240 --> 1:01:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then you know, don't put it in a

1:01:12.240 --> 1:01:15.080
<v Speaker 2>school bag, because that'll be the first thing gets thrown away.

1:01:15.080 --> 1:01:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And my head's spinning. So we come up with a

1:01:18.920 --> 1:01:21.040
<v Speaker 2>plan there, and I won't go into where or how

1:01:21.240 --> 1:01:23.280
<v Speaker 2>he carries it, but he still does to this day

1:01:23.280 --> 1:01:28.120
<v Speaker 2>when he's outside where we are. So we formulated a

1:01:28.160 --> 1:01:29.960
<v Speaker 2>plan with his friend down the corner that he'd ride

1:01:29.960 --> 1:01:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the bike down. As he turned around the corner, I

1:01:32.480 --> 1:01:36.200
<v Speaker 2>couldn't see him. The other mother was on the phone

1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:39.800
<v Speaker 2>and she says, yep, I can see him. They'd play together,

1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.360
<v Speaker 2>and then when he was coming home she'd ring. I'd say, yes,

1:01:43.360 --> 1:01:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I can see him. We're talking maybe one hundred and

1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:50.080
<v Speaker 2>fifty two hundred meters. He's gone around that corner, and

1:01:50.400 --> 1:01:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I believe the mum was watching them play outside. She's

1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:56.080
<v Speaker 2>gone inside for a second to check the dinner or

1:01:56.080 --> 1:01:59.960
<v Speaker 2>something like that. My son gets approached by somebody that

1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:04.800
<v Speaker 2>it passes him a cryptic note and says, don't tell anybody,

1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:06.480
<v Speaker 2>but mummy's coming to get you tomorrow.

1:02:07.920 --> 1:02:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Any idea who that was or.

1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:13.280
<v Speaker 2>We managed to get CCTV footage, but police were never

1:02:13.360 --> 1:02:18.840
<v Speaker 2>able to find that person. Male female, female, Yeah, and

1:02:18.880 --> 1:02:21.760
<v Speaker 2>my son knew the face but couldn't say the name.

1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:23.800
<v Speaker 2>He just said he'd seen that face in the camps,

1:02:23.960 --> 1:02:26.880
<v Speaker 2>and the camps meant wherever they'd stayed during.

1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:28.000
<v Speaker 1>That Mummy's coming to get you.

1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, he come home that afternoon, is very quiet. Yeah,

1:02:33.400 --> 1:02:37.439
<v Speaker 2>so for an hour or so. He's a very deep

1:02:37.480 --> 1:02:39.120
<v Speaker 2>thinking sort of child. So I just sort of gave

1:02:39.160 --> 1:02:41.160
<v Speaker 2>him a bit of space and then I said to him,

1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:44.240
<v Speaker 2>what's up. We need to have a chat, and he

1:02:44.320 --> 1:02:46.600
<v Speaker 2>passed me the little note. He wouldn't talk. Gary was Froe.

1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:50.640
<v Speaker 1>So when the cryptic note actual physically gave him a note.

1:02:50.560 --> 1:02:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, so there was when I say CRYPTI there

1:02:53.040 --> 1:02:55.280
<v Speaker 2>was no writing on it. There's a thing called a

1:02:55.360 --> 1:03:01.600
<v Speaker 2>mood ring, and he was given the mood ring. And

1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:04.520
<v Speaker 2>then his mum kept the little bit of cardboard that

1:03:04.560 --> 1:03:07.360
<v Speaker 2>tells you what color is what mood and it was

1:03:07.400 --> 1:03:10.760
<v Speaker 2>folded up in a wallet. This is what he's told me,

1:03:11.080 --> 1:03:15.920
<v Speaker 2>And he said that he knew that was mum's. So

1:03:16.400 --> 1:03:19.360
<v Speaker 2>that was the way of telling him, Okay, yeah, that's

1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:21.960
<v Speaker 2>what I believe, and something over.

1:03:21.720 --> 1:03:22.800
<v Speaker 1>He could relate to it.

1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, And you can imagine the confusion going

1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:30.720
<v Speaker 2>on because he's already missing his mum and you can't

1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:33.640
<v Speaker 2>when you're going through the court process. Don't discuss it

1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:35.880
<v Speaker 2>with the children. They put you in a pretty difficult

1:03:35.920 --> 1:03:38.760
<v Speaker 2>position because they see in all the moods and everything

1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:41.640
<v Speaker 2>that goes on. Yeah, very difficult position, and.

1:03:41.600 --> 1:03:45.120
<v Speaker 1>You can't discuss any of its, explain what's going on, Yeah,

1:03:45.160 --> 1:03:47.960
<v Speaker 1>because you're contaminated. Yeah.

1:03:48.040 --> 1:03:51.040
<v Speaker 2>And around this time, Gary, I guess I took on

1:03:51.080 --> 1:03:54.600
<v Speaker 2>the role of investigator as well as, you know, his

1:03:54.960 --> 1:04:01.720
<v Speaker 2>personal security guard. So I actually went. He was approached

1:04:01.760 --> 1:04:06.240
<v Speaker 2>twice in he didn't he loves riding his bike, so

1:04:06.280 --> 1:04:08.520
<v Speaker 2>he didn't not want to ride his bike anymore. So

1:04:09.040 --> 1:04:10.680
<v Speaker 2>I just said to this mum, you know, we'll do

1:04:10.760 --> 1:04:14.960
<v Speaker 2>the same thing. But I was floating around. It actually

1:04:14.960 --> 1:04:17.120
<v Speaker 2>annoyed him. I was floating around in the car, so

1:04:17.320 --> 1:04:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I was watching him from a distance. I wasn't going

1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:22.840
<v Speaker 2>to have that happen a second time. So I'd driven

1:04:22.920 --> 1:04:24.360
<v Speaker 2>up the street to do a U turn. The kids

1:04:24.440 --> 1:04:26.320
<v Speaker 2>were playing out the front of the local service station.

1:04:26.480 --> 1:04:28.520
<v Speaker 2>They had a little jump there. The guy in the

1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:32.040
<v Speaker 2>service station, I knew as I've gone to turn the

1:04:32.040 --> 1:04:34.360
<v Speaker 2>car around up the end of the street sort of,

1:04:34.600 --> 1:04:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I was patrolling. He's approached again. But this time, the

1:04:40.080 --> 1:04:42.720
<v Speaker 2>same woman, same car. This was when we were able

1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to put it to because when I found out about

1:04:44.720 --> 1:04:46.960
<v Speaker 2>the first occasion, I flew down there at a rate

1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of knights. Nobody around. We live in an area where,

1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:52.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a small community, so.

1:04:53.000 --> 1:04:54.440
<v Speaker 1>A strange car, I'll stick out.

1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:57.440
<v Speaker 2>It'll stick out. Yeah, So I went to the local

1:04:57.920 --> 1:05:01.960
<v Speaker 2>service station after he it said the lady come again.

1:05:02.040 --> 1:05:04.960
<v Speaker 2>But she walked, I believe, up to approach him, and

1:05:05.000 --> 1:05:08.040
<v Speaker 2>then passed him and went to go on the service station.

1:05:08.160 --> 1:05:10.000
<v Speaker 2>And the attendant thought it was funny that she didn't

1:05:10.000 --> 1:05:12.120
<v Speaker 2>go in, and then turned around and say, I think

1:05:12.120 --> 1:05:15.200
<v Speaker 2>he sort of caught partial license plate over the vehicle.

1:05:16.360 --> 1:05:19.560
<v Speaker 2>So I'd say maybe she got, you know, spooped a

1:05:19.560 --> 1:05:23.600
<v Speaker 2>bit or something a couple of days. So obviously I'm

1:05:23.760 --> 1:05:26.920
<v Speaker 2>calling the police with all of this, they said. I

1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:29.320
<v Speaker 2>remember one police officer said to me, make these things

1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:33.400
<v Speaker 2>contend to make you a little bit paranoid, And I'm like,

1:05:33.760 --> 1:05:37.840
<v Speaker 2>for an approach to that quick, Gary. They're watching, right,

1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:42.560
<v Speaker 2>So then Wet tightened security around him a lot more.

1:05:43.480 --> 1:05:47.560
<v Speaker 2>We were driving to the school along the school run

1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:50.360
<v Speaker 2>at the bottom of our street, just outside the range

1:05:50.360 --> 1:05:54.320
<v Speaker 2>of the AVA is Helen walking up the street. This

1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:55.520
<v Speaker 2>is on the school.

1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Run, and then she'd have no businessman down there. It's

1:05:57.800 --> 1:05:59.120
<v Speaker 1>not like she's and half hours away.

1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, way smiling. You know, it's not a

1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:07.600
<v Speaker 2>physical thing, but not meant to be there. You imagine

1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the confusion.

1:06:08.440 --> 1:06:12.960
<v Speaker 1>You've had these approaches by the unknown woman you've had, Helen.

1:06:13.000 --> 1:06:16.320
<v Speaker 1>They're not breaching the AVA because he's just outside meither

1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:19.920
<v Speaker 1>outside the five hundred mether radius. Where do you go

1:06:20.000 --> 1:06:20.600
<v Speaker 1>to from there?

1:06:22.320 --> 1:06:26.520
<v Speaker 2>So two things happened very quickly. So shortly after the

1:06:26.520 --> 1:06:31.920
<v Speaker 2>police come to tell me that the vehicle was linked

1:06:32.400 --> 1:06:37.240
<v Speaker 2>to that male that we mentioned before who lives ten

1:06:37.320 --> 1:06:37.960
<v Speaker 2>hours away.

1:06:38.160 --> 1:06:41.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, and this male being the person that was very

1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:45.080
<v Speaker 1>vocal in the car front passengers car of the video

1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:47.920
<v Speaker 1>that we played when Helen was arrested and refused to

1:06:48.080 --> 1:06:49.440
<v Speaker 1>acknowledge police power.

1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it. So that kicked me up another gear again. Yeah, okay,

1:06:52.960 --> 1:06:56.040
<v Speaker 2>this is now working in company with others.

1:06:56.920 --> 1:07:01.840
<v Speaker 1>And all these people are associated to the NDA, the

1:07:01.880 --> 1:07:02.960
<v Speaker 1>Sovereign Citizen Movement.

1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So then the interesting thing was there the police

1:07:06.640 --> 1:07:08.720
<v Speaker 2>are on the way to tell me they've they've linked

1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:13.400
<v Speaker 2>that vehicle to this person and the car is laying

1:07:13.400 --> 1:07:15.760
<v Speaker 2>in wait in another side street just up there over

1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:21.440
<v Speaker 2>my house. So they approached it. It sped off, I believe,

1:07:21.480 --> 1:07:26.480
<v Speaker 2>a short pursuit insured and they got away and I

1:07:26.520 --> 1:07:28.520
<v Speaker 2>was sort of told, you know, we've got a number

1:07:28.560 --> 1:07:30.880
<v Speaker 2>plate recognition. It won't get all the way back to

1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:32.840
<v Speaker 2>where it comes from. I said, well, it god, all

1:07:32.840 --> 1:07:35.640
<v Speaker 2>the way down here, didn't it. And when I meet

1:07:35.720 --> 1:07:39.440
<v Speaker 2>up a gear, that's when I really started taking the

1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:42.000
<v Speaker 2>protection of my son extremely serious.

1:07:42.480 --> 1:07:46.440
<v Speaker 1>So your your concern, based on the stuff that had

1:07:46.480 --> 1:07:49.600
<v Speaker 1>been happening to you in the situations you found yourself in,

1:07:50.080 --> 1:07:51.640
<v Speaker 1>was that your son was going to be abducted.

1:07:53.640 --> 1:07:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I'll take you to Constant And you know,

1:07:57.480 --> 1:08:01.240
<v Speaker 2>reoccurring nightmares that my son was having was and I

1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:02.800
<v Speaker 2>had to go out and comfort him when he wakes

1:08:02.880 --> 1:08:05.160
<v Speaker 2>up screaming, was that somebody was pulling a bag over

1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:07.240
<v Speaker 2>his head and dragging him off his bike. Now that's

1:08:07.240 --> 1:08:11.640
<v Speaker 2>come directly from that person. You know, they didn't grab him,

1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:15.320
<v Speaker 2>They just approached him, approached him, but it frightened him.

1:08:15.360 --> 1:08:18.000
<v Speaker 2>That's taken a lot of counseling to get him through that.

1:08:18.680 --> 1:08:20.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, kids should be worried about getting lollies from

1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:24.960
<v Speaker 2>the corner shop, hanging out with their mates, fun times.

1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Totally carefree, no responsibility.

1:08:26.640 --> 1:08:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, these kids have been treated like they

1:08:29.720 --> 1:08:33.519
<v Speaker 2>belong to movie stars. You know, they've They've got myself

1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:37.040
<v Speaker 2>and others following them around and protecting them in their

1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:39.120
<v Speaker 2>day to day activities right.

1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.120
<v Speaker 1>Now, and they'd be aware of that. Part of the

1:08:41.160 --> 1:08:43.679
<v Speaker 1>fun was getting away from the scrutiny of your parents

1:08:43.760 --> 1:08:45.320
<v Speaker 1>and people watching what you're doing.

1:08:45.479 --> 1:08:49.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, even to play that. The kids love their footy,

1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:53.639
<v Speaker 2>even play footy. I'm patrolling the car park. Other fathers

1:08:53.880 --> 1:08:57.240
<v Speaker 2>are watching for faces we don't know. Yeah, you know,

1:08:57.280 --> 1:09:01.439
<v Speaker 2>the community has been sensational in the they've given. My

1:09:01.560 --> 1:09:05.040
<v Speaker 2>kids are nowhere in our community without eyes on them,

1:09:05.760 --> 1:09:07.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's just how it has to be.

1:09:08.080 --> 1:09:11.440
<v Speaker 1>So you've got the police have got this car that's

1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:16.400
<v Speaker 1>been identified in the vicinity of where your son is,

1:09:16.760 --> 1:09:20.280
<v Speaker 1>and that's linked to the group that Helen's involved with

1:09:20.560 --> 1:09:22.640
<v Speaker 1>from ten ten hours.

1:09:22.400 --> 1:09:23.599
<v Speaker 2>Away up the North coast.

1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:26.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, living a normal life when you feel like you've

1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:30.400
<v Speaker 1>been watched all the time and you've got people stalking

1:09:30.439 --> 1:09:32.640
<v Speaker 1>and tracking the movements of your kids, how did that

1:09:32.720 --> 1:09:33.799
<v Speaker 1>affect you personally?

1:09:34.400 --> 1:09:38.599
<v Speaker 2>I'll have been. I did Victims of crime counseling, Yeah,

1:09:38.960 --> 1:09:44.960
<v Speaker 2>was recommended to me. I during that was displaying all

1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:47.519
<v Speaker 2>the signs of pdsdeh. I think that's a term that's

1:09:47.520 --> 1:09:51.680
<v Speaker 2>thrown around pretty loosely these days. But you know, they

1:09:51.720 --> 1:09:54.559
<v Speaker 2>did psycho tests some men stuff like that, and they

1:09:54.680 --> 1:09:59.680
<v Speaker 2>just said, you're super hyper vigilant. So I was, it's

1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:02.880
<v Speaker 2>enough and for me to be running eighteen nineteen hour days.

1:10:05.120 --> 1:10:09.479
<v Speaker 2>There was stages there where I was I think, blacking

1:10:09.479 --> 1:10:12.280
<v Speaker 2>out Gary I was, I was coming to you know,

1:10:13.479 --> 1:10:16.679
<v Speaker 2>not remembering getting it, getting out of bed and lying

1:10:17.080 --> 1:10:20.040
<v Speaker 2>behind the front fence, tooled up, ready to go.

1:10:20.520 --> 1:10:21.120
<v Speaker 1>I kind of.

1:10:21.160 --> 1:10:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Likened it to when I was when I was working

1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.720
<v Speaker 2>on the door. I used to I'm a pretty passive guy.

1:10:25.840 --> 1:10:27.639
<v Speaker 2>Used to get a kick out of talking blokes down,

1:10:28.320 --> 1:10:31.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, not punching on with them. A kind of

1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:34.439
<v Speaker 2>when I put on that uniform, I become a different

1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:36.360
<v Speaker 2>person to who I was he my own life. So

1:10:36.400 --> 1:10:40.040
<v Speaker 2>I went back to that. The unfortunate side of it

1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:41.840
<v Speaker 2>is I didn't take the uniform off and I still

1:10:41.840 --> 1:10:44.759
<v Speaker 2>haven't to this day. You know, I've become a different person.

1:10:45.840 --> 1:10:48.679
<v Speaker 2>My wife has said that this has changed our lives forever,

1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:50.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's exactly what it's done.

1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:54.439
<v Speaker 1>Okay, look, we might we might take a break. Now.

1:10:55.960 --> 1:10:58.800
<v Speaker 1>What you're going through is horrendous and you're describing it

1:10:58.920 --> 1:11:01.120
<v Speaker 1>very well. Indeed, tell and the build up and the

1:11:01.120 --> 1:11:04.240
<v Speaker 1>frustration and all the things that go into there. When

1:11:04.240 --> 1:11:06.080
<v Speaker 1>we get back for part two, we're going to talk

1:11:06.080 --> 1:11:11.599
<v Speaker 1>about you. You're getting served a warrant from the nda

1:11:11.920 --> 1:11:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court of the World or whatever.

1:11:15.080 --> 1:11:17.240
<v Speaker 2>They that's another fact of the case that did happen.

1:11:17.560 --> 1:11:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then the court matter, and I've got some

1:11:21.200 --> 1:11:24.800
<v Speaker 1>extracts from the transcripts of things that Helen said in

1:11:24.840 --> 1:11:26.760
<v Speaker 1>the court just to give the listeners a sense of

1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:30.519
<v Speaker 1>what you're dealing with here. I think you coming out

1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:33.320
<v Speaker 1>and speaking and I know before we spoke on the podcast,

1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:35.960
<v Speaker 1>you want people to understand these are the things that

1:11:36.000 --> 1:11:38.680
<v Speaker 1>can happen, and this is the impact it can have.

1:11:38.840 --> 1:11:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Is that the basis of your talking here, Yeah, it's.

1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:46.240
<v Speaker 2>That it's to tell other men out there. Yep, the

1:11:46.320 --> 1:11:50.000
<v Speaker 2>domestic violence is real for you. Everybody's case is different.

1:11:50.000 --> 1:11:53.080
<v Speaker 2>I understand that you've got to stand up. Yeah, you know,

1:11:53.280 --> 1:11:54.960
<v Speaker 2>you've got to grow up here and stand up and

1:11:55.000 --> 1:11:57.360
<v Speaker 2>say this is not okay, Well.

1:11:57.320 --> 1:12:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I suppose flip it and what you've discribe. Now, if

1:12:01.120 --> 1:12:04.680
<v Speaker 1>it was a woman in this situation, the man was doing.

1:12:04.400 --> 1:12:06.880
<v Speaker 2>That, I'd already be sitting in silver Water.

1:12:07.200 --> 1:12:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Well you said it, I didn't.

1:12:09.560 --> 1:12:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Well that's the truth.

1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:13.200
<v Speaker 1>I think we need to have that discussion. If you

1:12:13.280 --> 1:12:17.800
<v Speaker 1>flipped it was a man stalking.

1:12:17.800 --> 1:12:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Moon like that, and sometimes.

1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:22.880
<v Speaker 1>And quite rightly, you should be sitting in silver War

1:12:22.960 --> 1:12:24.320
<v Speaker 1>the prison if you're doing that.

1:12:24.520 --> 1:12:25.400
<v Speaker 2>I agree totally.

1:12:25.880 --> 1:12:28.719
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a healthy discussion to have about. Yeah,

1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:32.320
<v Speaker 1>sometimes males are the victims in these situations.

1:12:32.439 --> 1:12:34.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think I pointed out to you Gary in

1:12:35.240 --> 1:12:39.160
<v Speaker 2>a letter I sent you that, and you know where

1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:42.759
<v Speaker 2>I grew up. Real number one was don't fuck around

1:12:42.760 --> 1:12:47.760
<v Speaker 2>with another person's family. Yeah, they chose the wrong men's

1:12:47.800 --> 1:12:50.240
<v Speaker 2>family to fuck around with in this case. So I'm

1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:53.160
<v Speaker 2>not going away. I'll do it publicly, I'll stand in

1:12:53.160 --> 1:12:54.960
<v Speaker 2>front of them, I'll do I'll take it to whatever

1:12:55.040 --> 1:12:57.400
<v Speaker 2>level they want to take it to. But they chose

1:12:57.400 --> 1:12:59.200
<v Speaker 2>the wrong fucking family to mess with.

1:12:59.560 --> 1:13:04.160
<v Speaker 1>And watch I like the messaging. Yeah, and that quite right.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't be intimidated or harassed. And good on you

1:13:08.560 --> 1:13:10.560
<v Speaker 1>for standing up to them. Let's have a break and

1:13:10.680 --> 1:13:14.240
<v Speaker 1>come back. And I think when people listen to some

1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:16.720
<v Speaker 1>of the some of the transcripts from the court matter,

1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:18.559
<v Speaker 1>they'll get a sense of what you're dealing with and

1:13:18.840 --> 1:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>how difficult it was.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks to look forward to it.

1:13:21.320 --> 1:13:22.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, cheers,