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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Who the hell are these sovereign citizens? What do they

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Speaker 1: stand for? Why are we talking about them? And are

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Speaker 1: they something we should be concerned about. Recently, two police

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Speaker 1: officers were killed in Victoria, allegedly by a person who

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Speaker 1: identify himself as a sovereign citizen. At the time of recording,

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Speaker 1: that man is still on the run. In twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: two other police officers were shot and killed in Queensland

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Speaker 1: by Gareth Train who supported the Sovereign Citizen movement. So yes,

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Speaker 1: I think we should be concerned by the Sovereign Citizen

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Speaker 1: movement today. I spake to Scott Man. Scott's former partner,

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Speaker 1: Helen Delaney, is a co founder and self proclaimed leader

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Speaker 1: of the Sovereign Citizen group Nam Dhaka Dhala australis also

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Speaker 1: known as NDA. You're going to be shocked by what

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Speaker 1: he has to say and what has happened to him

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Speaker 1: and his children, including his concerns of the children being kidnapped.

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Speaker 1: Scott now has sole custody of his children, but he's

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Speaker 1: living in fear every day that they might be taken

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Speaker 1: from him. It's not the way you want to live

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Speaker 1: your life. Our conversation gave me a greater understanding of

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Speaker 1: what the Sovereign Citizen movement is all about and the

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Speaker 1: dangers we face when ideologies become extreme. It's really quite scary.

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Speaker 1: Scott Murran, welcome to our Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Garret. It's a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Well I'm guessing here, but I think you'd prefer to

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Speaker 1: be listening to a podcast, a true crime podcast, and

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Speaker 1: being the guest on a true christ Yes. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: life hasn't turned out that way, has it with things

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Speaker 1: that you've been through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be touching because your wife and a

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Speaker 1: former wife, Helen Delaney, got involved in a sovereign citizen

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Speaker 1: movement and that sort of your life was never the same.

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Speaker 2: Following that until this day.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about it. And people would

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Speaker 1: have have recent times heard of sovereign citizens coming into

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Speaker 1: the narrative, recent shooting of two police officers down in

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Speaker 1: Victoria with a person who identified as a sovereign citizen,

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Speaker 1: And I don't know, maybe your perspective is completely different

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Speaker 1: because what you've been through, But when you ago, i'd

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Speaker 1: see someone who claimed to be a sovereign citizen, I'd

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Speaker 1: have a bit of a chuckle and think it's all harmless.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that was me at the beginning too. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 2: just clowns, is what I thought. Yeah, but the further

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Speaker 2: you delve into what they put online and their communication

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Speaker 2: with each other, it's a very serious matter. And when

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Speaker 2: you get to a point of threatening to take somebody's children,

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Speaker 2: I treat that very seriously.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely, and that's where the ideology when they

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Speaker 1: start acting on their ideology, and it becomes transfixed on it,

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Speaker 1: it can become problematic. Before we get into our conversation,

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Speaker 1: I should clarify here your former wife, Helen Delaney, has

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Speaker 1: been convicted at court for eleven counts of breaching an

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Speaker 1: AVA and one count of intimidation.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, Yep, that is correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we're going to talk about what happened to

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Speaker 1: you and the journey you've been on and protecting your children,

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Speaker 1: but we're also going to talk about sovereign citizens in general,

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Speaker 1: and I probably should. We'll talk about like while I

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Speaker 1: recently what I mentioned about the two police officers in

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Speaker 1: Victoria who were murdered, and then in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 1: there was two other police officers who were murdered when

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Speaker 1: they were shot by a person who identified with sovereign

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Speaker 1: citizen ideology. I think his name was Gareth Traine. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was in twenty twenty two. So, just as by

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Speaker 1: way of a disclaimer, I need to make it very

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Speaker 1: clear we're not suggesting all sovereign citizens are capable of

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Speaker 1: committing such horrendous crimes or Helen. Then the nam Daka

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Speaker 1: Dahalia Australias, which is the sovereign citizen.

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Speaker 2: Group, it was a group that she formed, Yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That she formed for that matter of linked or would

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Speaker 1: carry out crimes of that nature. So I just sort

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Speaker 1: of put that on record. But I think it's worthwhile

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Speaker 1: talking about crimes like that and how they are linked

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Speaker 1: to people with these sovereign citizen beliefs and ideology.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I agree, because the first time I've heard about it,

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Speaker 1: or the first time it really became part of my understanding,

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Speaker 1: was during COVID, where people were coming out and they

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Speaker 1: were pushing against the powers of the state and the

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Speaker 1: lockdown laws and the mandatory vaccinations and all the type

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Speaker 1: of things that people were generally concerned about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they also go under the monarch of freedom fighters

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Speaker 2: because sovereign citizen is an oxymoron. You can't be a

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Speaker 2: sovereign and a citizen. You'll hear them say that a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not just one group. There's a whole

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Speaker 2: ranger groups that we've come across. Ye, And they just

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Speaker 2: they meet online, they talk in secret chat rooms and

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Speaker 2: to me, have whatever thoughts or beliefs or ideologies you want.

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Speaker 2: But when you start acting on them and you start

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Speaker 2: including people's children, yeah, it's game on for me.

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Speaker 1: Well that's where they cross the line with the impact

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Speaker 1: that it's had on you. And we're going to get

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Speaker 1: deep dive into that. And you say, oxymoron about sovereign citizens.

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Speaker 1: I want to when maybe we do it in part two,

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Speaker 1: just you know, sort of pick apart some of the

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Speaker 1: philosophies of a sovereign citizen because it doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: add up to one thing that what they're they're claiming,

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Speaker 1: and then how they're living their life. So we'll have

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Speaker 1: a look at that. Tell me a little bit just

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Speaker 1: about your background, so people listening to the podcast understand

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Speaker 1: where you can.

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Speaker 2: Before this, I was just a pretty simple living sort

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Speaker 2: of person. Grew up in housing commission in Globe Yep.

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Speaker 2: You know, got an education there. As I mentioned to

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Speaker 2: you before that you don't get in school. I think

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Speaker 2: you've had people.

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Speaker 1: I'm just just focusing through who would you know, because yeah, Gleb, it.

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Speaker 2: Was a lot of them.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was a tough, tough neighborhood to grow

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Speaker 1: up on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and before it became a trendy in the western

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Speaker 2: yeah suburb it was the projects, So it was a

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Speaker 2: tough place to grow up.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you've identified that you wouldn't be the first

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Speaker 1: guess that sat in that chair that grew up up

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Speaker 1: round the globe. Okay, so that was your childhood and

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Speaker 1: then into adulthood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just sort of got wasn't that into school? So

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Speaker 2: I got out of school in year ten and I

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Speaker 2: started an apprenticeship. I sort of did that for a

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Speaker 2: while three years, discovered girls and through the apprenticeship away

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Speaker 2: and just pretty.

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Speaker 1: Much make some great decisions at that age.

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Speaker 2: Me and women. It's a big drama, but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: just sort of have been from job to job very much. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: whatever I had to do.

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Speaker 1: Now, you've had from your first wife, I understand that

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Speaker 1: you had had a child, yeah, her first wife.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a daughter that's twenty seven. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 2: a psychologist, which has been helpful through this. And then yeah,

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Speaker 2: series of failed relationships after that, some of which I

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Speaker 2: was probably to blame for.

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Speaker 1: Gary, Okay, let's break the hat right down. I've never

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Speaker 1: had admissions like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, I understand like relationships are complicated, and yeah, they

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Speaker 1: when they fall apart, that things can deteriorate rather quickly.

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Speaker 1: But there's always two sides to the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, never quite like this one.

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Speaker 1: No, I've got to say, like, I've made some mistakes

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Speaker 1: in relationships as well, but I don't think I've gone

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Speaker 1: down as bad as you have in what's happened with

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Speaker 1: your relationship with Helen? Yeah, so when did you get

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Speaker 1: with Helen?

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Speaker 2: So I was working as a security guard YEP in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: doing some very interesting work in that alone, and we

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Speaker 2: just I met. I was sort of like, I'm working,

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Speaker 2: you know, up until one hundred hours a week, no

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Speaker 2: time to meet anybody. Didn't feel like I was going

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Speaker 2: to meet my future wife on a nightclub door. And

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Speaker 2: then after that I sort of just started to look

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Speaker 2: into that internet dating and we clicked through that. At

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Speaker 2: the time, she was a film producer, working on big

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Speaker 2: stuff like Superman, The Matrix, that sort of stuff, pretty good,

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Speaker 2: making quite successful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then once we

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Speaker 2: discovered we had a child on the way, my oldest son.

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Speaker 2: She had a home up in Newcastle, so I was

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Speaker 2: able to get work up there with the same company

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Speaker 2: I worked for, and we went to Newcastle and I

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Speaker 2: worked in the advertising business as a producer, and I

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Speaker 2: was working nights so I could be daddy day care

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Speaker 2: during the day. Yeah, and Newcastle beautiful spot. It was great. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I thought we'd live there forever. And then my mum,

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Speaker 2: who's ninety five and still lives with me today. She

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Speaker 2: was in the family home down the coast and she

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Speaker 2: sort of got to a stage in life where she

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Speaker 2: needed help. She didn't want to go into a nursing home,

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Speaker 2: and I made a promise that, you know, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: do that, So we shifted down there, and shortly after,

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Speaker 2: oh no, sorry, we had Grace, who I mentioned to

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Speaker 2: you before we lost the child.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a spine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they didn't find out until very late in

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Speaker 2: the pregnancy. So we had to go through the birth

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Speaker 2: of Grace and she didn't survive that day, which was tough.

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Speaker 1: A lot of trauma associated with a situation.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah, very tough. First time I did counseling

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Speaker 2: was kids and kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I used to believe that was all, you know, spooks

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Speaker 2: and widows. But yeah, it helped me get through that.

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Speaker 2: We shifted down to live with mum, sort of start fresh,

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Speaker 2: and along come my third son. And after the birth

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Speaker 2: of my third son, we sort of I was working,

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Speaker 2: but she wanted to go back to work. She went

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Speaker 2: back to work and again, I went back into the

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Speaker 2: role of daddy daycare.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and how did you find that like it?

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Speaker 2: Loved it? Yeah, yeah, loved it. Sometimes the only bloke

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Speaker 2: at the park with all the mums and the stroll

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Speaker 2: and stuff, But yeah I did. I loved it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's a lot said for it, isn't Yeah

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Speaker 1: you've done something like that. Yeah, I know some friends

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Speaker 1: that have gone down that path, and yeah I didn't

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Speaker 1: have that our rewarding it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't have it with my daughter. But I'm

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Speaker 2: a strong believer in that tummy time. So straight after

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Speaker 2: all of my children were born, I did that tummy time.

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Speaker 1: Spent spending time with the kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I for me, that just gives us

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Speaker 2: an unbreakable bond, which you know still there today.

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Speaker 1: It's shown through. Okay. So it was a fairly every

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Speaker 1: when I say average life, it was a life that

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Speaker 1: you were living and a simple life, and you everything

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Speaker 1: was going well at that stage.

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Speaker 3: And then when did it start to So when she

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Speaker 3: went back in the relationship, when she went back to work,

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Speaker 3: she became a real estate agent, selling land in a subdivision.

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Speaker 2: And it was just at the time real estate was

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Speaker 2: really slow where we live, and then there was a

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Speaker 2: boom and I think she claimed one day to have

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Speaker 2: sold twelve million dollars worth of property record sales day,

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And you know, she was good

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Speaker 2: at what she did. Cut from that, Yes, life was good. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and she sort of that was where it started. She

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Speaker 2: wanted to get into property investing in when we bought

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Speaker 2: a couple of properties like I mentioned too before, and

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Speaker 2: that was out of equity within my family home, having

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Speaker 2: lost a home earlier in life through another interesting relationship

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Speaker 2: which was right next door to the property that I

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Speaker 2: now live in.

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Speaker 1: Scott Maybe we should talk off camera. I had a

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Speaker 1: tendency to and I should reveal this, But anyway, I'm

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Speaker 1: asking you a lot of questions. I had a tendency

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Speaker 1: to buy property in the in the peak and selling

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Speaker 1: the slump. And I worked out if I had adjusted

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Speaker 1: my relationships by two years, I would have been buying

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Speaker 1: in the slump and selling in the I would have

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Speaker 1: a lot more money.

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Speaker 2: From when I was thirty till today. Financially, I have

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Speaker 2: just made a mess of my life in terms of

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Speaker 2: property and women.

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Speaker 1: Well, well it happens, so yeah, I'm certainly not sitting

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Speaker 1: here in judgment of you, I wanted to talk. We've

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Speaker 1: got a sense of the relationship at this stage. Now

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Speaker 1: i'll talk specifically about Helen a little bit more detail

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Speaker 1: about it, but before we do, just so that our

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Speaker 1: listeners and can get a sense of what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: because she, how would I put this, became rather notorious

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Speaker 1: is probably the best word. When she featured on a

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Speaker 1: YouTube sensation when she's been arrested by police and refused

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Speaker 1: to abide by their decisions. And I just want to

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Speaker 1: play that, and then we'll talk about Helen in more detail, sure,

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Speaker 1: because this will give people a sense of what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. I should clarify this is after you've separated

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Speaker 1: from her. This is down the track when she's very

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Speaker 1: much embroiled and caught up in the sovereign citizen.

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Speaker 4: Okay, on this land, I'll look at arrest you absolutely

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Speaker 4: what we are not driving, We are traveling. You guys

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Speaker 4: don't even know what you'se are on about. I need

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Speaker 4: your most senior, most JEU. We'll bring your most senior

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Speaker 4: sergeant down.

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Speaker 1: Sir.

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Speaker 4: You prode details, you will be arrested. We don't have

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Speaker 4: to give you any details. There is any you will

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Speaker 4: commit offense, You'll be liable for it. It is absolutely trespassed.

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Speaker 4: You've got no jurisdiction here, Bro, you're committing offense by

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Speaker 4: standing here, Yes you are. You don't know, you don't

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Speaker 4: have any jurisdiction on this on this land. I'll look

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Speaker 4: at arrest you absolutely, man. I would love to just

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Speaker 4: get you one on one.

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Speaker 1: Drive you.

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Speaker 2: To the vehicle under arrest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what we what we just watched there? Helen

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Speaker 1: was the driver of the vehicle. Police have stopped her.

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Speaker 1: The aggressive man's voice you can hear that was a

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Speaker 1: passenger in the in the vehicle at the time. Helen

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Speaker 1: was stopped and claimed that the police or you know

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Speaker 1: in summary, that had no authority over her because she

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Speaker 1: identified as a sovereign sovereign citizen. Were you shocked when

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Speaker 1: you saw that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the person that I spent ten years

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Speaker 2: of my life with and had three children to. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a completely different person.

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Speaker 1: Because I remember remember seeing seeing that and it sawt

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Speaker 1: of where it goes from a little bit funny to

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Speaker 1: a little bit more serious. Now she was arrested on that.

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Speaker 1: I think there were some warrants in existence, and I

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Speaker 1: know the police come under criticism and ripping the window

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Speaker 1: out because what we saw on the video was the

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Speaker 1: police officer actually ripped the front driver's window out and

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Speaker 1: smashed it. But what the police to do in that

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Speaker 1: situation if someone's not recognizing their power, they can't they

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Speaker 1: don't know what's in the car. They can't just person

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Speaker 1: person drive off. So that's sort of for I played

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Speaker 1: that because I want people to understand the difference between

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Speaker 1: what Helen was when you first met her, or the

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Speaker 1: type of person that she was, to what she evolved.

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Speaker 2: Into essentially two different people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what Helen's got involved in. How long

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Speaker 1: were you guys together?

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Speaker 2: Ten years?

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Speaker 1: Ten years all up? And when you separated? When was that?

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Speaker 1: How long you separated after ten years or were before then? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Just before ten years we separated and it was amicable

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Speaker 2: at the start, fifty to fifty custody of the boys.

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Speaker 2: We didn't go to court.

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Speaker 1: You're doing the seven days on, seven days off type.

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Speaker 2: Scene, how I was, Yeah, Yeah, and the children are happy.

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Speaker 2: They went to the same We lived a suburb apart.

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Speaker 2: Everything was fine until I believe Christmas. I couldn't recall

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Speaker 2: a year, but they basically the children were eight and

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Speaker 2: eleven I think at the time, and the kids come

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Speaker 2: to me on Christmas Eve I believe it was, and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: we're moving to Sydney and I said, that's news to me.

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Speaker 2: So that was kind of the beginning of where we

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Speaker 2: went off the edge of the cliff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So up until this point it was an

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Speaker 1: amicable separation.

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Speaker 2: Hady courts, property finances. Everything we did what they call

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Speaker 2: is a binding financial agreement. Yeah yeah, and yeah, we're all.

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Speaker 1: Happy and living close proximity, so the kids' lives weren't

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Speaker 1: messed up too much prior to that separation. And something

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Speaker 1: around the time of the separation, Helen started to become

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Speaker 1: in her mind a property guru is my reading of it.

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Speaker 1: Also started listening to the self help but what's his name,

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Speaker 1: Matte So.

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Speaker 2: It was Gary Vanderchuk. Yeah, he's yeah, I think another

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Speaker 2: one of Listen Jane Clarkson something, and she started to

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Speaker 2: really push that towards me. You know, we could be

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Speaker 2: sitting on a yacht in the Greek Isles and doing

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Speaker 2: this and that's people that know me. That's not me, Gary,

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Speaker 2: I win Lotto. I'm probably shouting the boys down the

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Speaker 2: pub I'm not sitting at a super yacht. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: she became obsessed with she wanted five properties in five years.

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Speaker 2: As I mentioned to her before, she we had two properties.

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Speaker 2: They were out of the equity in my family home.

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Speaker 2: And I just wasn't going to do five properties in

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Speaker 2: five years. I'm a bit more risk averse than that.

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Speaker 2: And what I said to her, well, what she said

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Speaker 2: to me was, you know, you're a glass half full person.

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Speaker 2: You don't want anything better in life. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: when you met me, this is the person I was.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to change me into something I'm not.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to beat it rich and famous.

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Speaker 1: You can see how that would wear thin on the

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Speaker 1: relationship or put cracks in the relationship. But I get

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Speaker 1: the sense, and I'm asking, I'm not saying, but the

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Speaker 1: sense that I get is that she really bought into it.

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Speaker 1: I liken it too. You know when m Way salesman

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Speaker 1: used to come around and a friend had get caught

356
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Speaker 1: up in it and there yeah, suddenly, yeah, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to take over the world and this is the

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Speaker 1: best thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, she took me along to one of the meetings

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Speaker 2: and we were sitting there and I thought they were

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Speaker 2: rushes all there on one side. They're in the dark,

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Speaker 2: and these people were sort of saying, oh, listen, we're

363
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Speaker 2: gonna we can do this for you, and then you've

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Speaker 2: got to buy a tape off them, you know, and

365
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Speaker 2: then if you pay a bit more, you're on the

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Speaker 2: platinum level. And as they turn the lights on, all

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Speaker 2: these ushes were standing there with not coffee and tea,

368
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Speaker 2: they were standing there with FPOs machines. And he goes

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Speaker 2: the first fifty people, you know, we'll get this steel

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Speaker 2: for four eight hundred dollars or something, and I think

371
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Speaker 2: I even put my hand on a leg and I

372
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Speaker 2: just said, we're not doing that, and she goes, I

373
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Speaker 2: already got the early bird price. I've gone and spent

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Speaker 2: four and a half greend or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, but this is all going in the

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Speaker 1: whole psychology of how people get caught up in ideologies,

377
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Speaker 1: because I've been to and it was over in Western Australia.

378
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Speaker 1: For the life of me, I can't remember what the

379
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Speaker 1: name of it was, but it was on the weekend Saturday,

380
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Speaker 1: and it was all people up there saying this, you know,

381
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Speaker 1: the world's roy so you can have an I don't

382
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: think and if you just believe and exactly the same thing,

383
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: not in seeing there with the lights off, but people

384
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Speaker 1: ready to sign up if you get in early. And

385
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Speaker 1: I watched people get up and literally run to the

386
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Speaker 1: air where.

387
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Speaker 2: You know, like a rock concert. They were actually knocking

388
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 2: each other over to get over there and put the

389
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Speaker 2: credit card on the machine.

390
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Speaker 1: I found it entertaining and it was slightly humorous, but

391
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: it was also it shocked me. But I think there

392
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 1: in lies where people might be susceptible to getting caught

393
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: up in the ideology of a sovereign citizen. They got

394
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Speaker 1: that susceptibility to get into their mind and go, that's

395
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Speaker 1: what I'm missing, that's what I'm looking for.

396
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to me, I'm adding up, you know, five

397
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Speaker 2: grand per twenty people, and then you know, the first

398
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: fifty I'm going, this is a pretty good earn for

399
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Speaker 2: a day, you know. And then we went to the

400
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Speaker 2: Sydney one that was around the country, all major capitals,

401
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 2: and I was just like, no, this is not I'm

402
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 2: not doing this. That's when I started to get the

403
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: feelings of losing the family home. Something mild men worked

404
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: every weekend to get us out of housing commission and

405
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 2: give us a better life.

406
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Speaker 1: Understandable.

407
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: So I wasn't going to lose that, hay, And you.

408
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: Get it drummed into you that you've got to have

409
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Speaker 1: a roof over your head. One is she tripped over

410
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 1: to America pursuing this type of stuff as well.

411
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that was when I called quits on

412
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: the relationship. So she booked a trip to America. Good

413
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: friend to mine did some research and said she's paid

414
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: like four or five grand for a ticket to this

415
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: three day event, and off she went, you know, And

416
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 2: as she went out the door that morning, I said,

417
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: when you get back, relationships finished, will sort out what

418
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Speaker 2: we have to do with the kids in the properties.

419
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Speaker 2: But I'm not going on this journey with you. Yeah, okay.

420
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Speaker 1: So the separation then, so it was her life was

421
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 1: heading in a different direction. You wanted to keep the

422
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: life that you would work, simple life, and okay, so

423
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 1: you separate. So I understand that. Then it comes to

424
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: that Christmas Eve where the kids have said we're moving,

425
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Speaker 1: which is a devastating thing.

426
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 2: Like the timing was incredible.

427
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but like that is where that's where people

428
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: lose their shit over, Like when the kids have been

429
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: moved in the state or a long way away when

430
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: they've been living close and then's yeah, it doesn't do

431
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: anyone any good.

432
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 2: Now, and to put your clear on that go. What

433
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 2: happened was my son asked me to go and talk

434
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: to his mother who was next door, and say, you know,

435
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to go.

436
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: How I was his son at the time.

437
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 2: He was around ten or eleven, okay to their friends. No,

438
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: he was going into year six at primary school, you know,

439
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: formal at the end, all his friends that sort of.

440
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 2: He didn't want to leave, and she basically told me

441
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 2: I was being abusive. Was sitting at a table having

442
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 2: a conversation. My son was present, and I said, look,

443
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 2: I'm just going to leave. This is not my home

444
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 2: or walk outside. It was a mother's house at the time,

445
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 2: and she convinced my son to stay with her for

446
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 2: the night. The next morning he said, we're going to Sydney.

447
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: I've changed my mind. I was like, mate, that's a

448
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: big change. But not wanting to have the kids torn

449
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: between mum and.

450
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: Dad, I understand it.

451
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just said, you know, if you're going to go,

452
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: then when you go. If they don't want to be

453
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 2: there they come back.

454
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: You know.

455
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 2: That was probably the first mistake I made, big mistake, Yeah.

456
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: Because it was a number of days or a period

457
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: of time before you saw or heard from the kids again.

458
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I saw them sporadically over that time. Sometimes

459
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: it was fortnightly, sometimes it was monthly. But also not

460
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 2: wanting to upset the kids. They were put into forty teams.

461
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,199
Speaker 2: They love their footing, and they were you know, they

462
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: had a game on or there was always something or

463
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: I was working.

464
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: So when the kid and we're talking, what three hours

465
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: away from where you were living.

466
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, they moved to Dremoyne, Sydney.

467
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: So it's something that you couldn't facilitate, not feasible for

468
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: them to play football up there and be at yours

469
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: on the.

470
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: Week Yeah, otherwise are going to spend every weekend in

471
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: the car. Yeah, and the youngest one doesn't like sitting

472
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: in the car for more than ten minutes. So it's

473
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 2: a big ass. So I had to take a bit

474
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: of a backward step there for a while.

475
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: Okay, So what was the next thing that happened in

476
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: this situation?

477
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: Then one easter a bit further down the track, the

478
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 2: kids were getting harder to contact. This is around the

479
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: time of the Lismore floods.

480
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: Okay, So what period of time has expired from when

481
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: they moved to Sydney to when it was getting harder

482
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: to contact?

483
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: Someone was in year six and then went into year seven,

484
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: so we're talking within twelve months.

485
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: Okay.

486
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I found out they were up in Lizmore the

487
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: liz More floods. They told me on the phone. You know,

488
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: I'm helping, we're helping to get money.

489
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: You thought they were still living at Sydney.

490
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, no knowledge.

491
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: So they're up at the Lizmore floods yep.

492
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the person that's in the car with Helen there,

493
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: he's been sort of a pivotal role in where she's

494
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 2: been at times.

495
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: You referred to that. That was the voice that we

496
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: heard when Helen was arrested on the video. So he's

497
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: been a fixture in her life certainly.

498
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

499
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: Okay, So your kids are up in liz Moore around

500
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: the time of the Lizmore floods and what were they

501
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: doing up there?

502
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Brion might have found out a lot

503
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: of this down the track, but they were going around

504
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: getting donations and things like that. For to help people

505
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: out in the angerble camp. Yeah, that's where that person

506
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: we've mentioned before was living. And the kids we're living,

507
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 2: sometimes sleeping in their car, sometimes in tin shacks.

508
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: How old were the kids then.

509
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: So still around that same age of eight or nine

510
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 2: years of age, and then the eldest one was about

511
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 2: eleven twelve.

512
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: Okay. Now I can only imagine from your point of

513
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: view how concerning it would be that you're losing touch

514
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: with your kids. I'm assuming you didn't have a lot

515
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: of direct contact with Helen at that time.

516
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: Not a lot, just emails mainly and the odd text message.

517
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: But I quickly worked out it wasn't a lot of

518
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: truth in what she was saying was happening and what

519
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: was actually happening.

520
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: And in that period of time, did you get the

521
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: weekends with the kids or school holidays?

522
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? On and off. The kids come to me one Christmas,

523
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: this is around the time of the Canbra protests. Yeah,

524
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: and we met sort of halfway between Camber and where

525
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: I live. The kids got in the car Gary and

526
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: they smelt that badly that I did the fifty k

527
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: trip back home of all four windows down and chucked

528
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: them in the shower as soon as I got them home.

529
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: Right now, when you say it smelt badly, as in

530
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: they hadn't been bathing.

531
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: Just any somebody that's sleeping, sleeping rough Yeah, yeah, yeah,

532
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 2: they looked terrible. They didn't look like my kids.

533
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: How did you feel as a father there?

534
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: I was gutted, Yeah, and remembering that they're not in

535
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: my custody yet at that stage. So that's when I'm

536
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: starting to think was.

537
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: There any order? Was there any order at that stage

538
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: of the custody or it's still yeah, yeah.

539
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: No there was, there was none. So the kids appeared

540
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 2: in a news clip when the fires happened in Old

541
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: Parliament House.

542
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: Okay, now we're talking about the protests at the Parliament

543
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: House in the tenth Embassy. Is that the process we're

544
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: talking about when there were attempts to set Old Parliament

545
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: a light or that's how it was reported something?

546
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as I'm sure you from the photo I

547
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: sent you, my two boys were right there front and center.

548
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: So how did you discover that?

549
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: I believe it was my daughter called me and said

550
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: because I'd actually made contact with Helen's mum, who I

551
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: got on very well with, and I said, I don't

552
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: want the children going to Canberra. Yeah, I can't see

553
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: him to talk any sense into her. I don't want

554
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: them at the protests. They're becoming violent. She said she's

555
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: not there, and I said, I've just had a phone

556
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: call that the kids are there, you know, and I

557
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 2: remember the words very clearly Gary. I said to her,

558
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to take those children away from her.

559
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and okay, so I can see you concern caught

560
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: up in that environment. I then picking them up and yeah,

561
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: as you describe, smelling obviously not being looked after properly. Yeah,

562
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: so what do you do in that situation? Mat?

563
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: I went straight into the nearest police station and said,

564
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: my kids are in Canberra at this stuff. How do

565
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: I get them back? And I'm sure you probably remember

566
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: from policing days nobody likes being on the front desk.

567
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: Would have been ducking for ducking for cover.

568
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so pretty much got what can we do?

569
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: Contact the Federal police. So I did that and they

570
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: said we're aware that there's the kids were actually staying

571
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: at that time in the ten embassy down there. More

572
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: and more stuff was, you know, people are ringing me

573
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: and saying I'm seeing your kids on TV and things

574
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 2: like that. It just got to a I started the panic,

575
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: I guess, so I wrung the federal police. They said, yeah,

576
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: we were aware of these kids in amongst this. What

577
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: do you want us to do? Just storm on in

578
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: there and pick your kids up? Yeah?

579
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: Well, who else do you go to if you can't

580
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: get to the police? Yeah?

581
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I want to make clear from the start, Garrier,

582
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: I'm not here to bash the police, the local police

583
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: and the police that I've dealt with throughout this, and

584
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: I've dealt with a lot. Yeah, have been fantastic. I've

585
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: had police that have been off duty coming reach me

586
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: in the shops multiple times and just ask how the

587
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: boys are going, because they've been on the journey with us,

588
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: they know how crazy it's gotten. And yeah, I appreciate that.

589
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: You know, how did you make the reconnection with the kids?

590
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: How did you get the boys? Boys back?

591
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 2: So after that, I went to the nearest lawyer's office

592
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,959
Speaker 2: in town Lucky. I stumbled into a good one and

593
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 2: I said, what do I do? This is what's going on.

594
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: They said, you know, have you got the money for

595
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: It's expensive, as lawyers are, and I said, yeah, I'll

596
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: find the money. You know, what do we do? How

597
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: do we How do I get my children back? I

598
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: was told pretty much it's very difficult, particularly if you're

599
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: a dad trying to get the kids back from the mum.

600
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 2: And I did an initial interview again. At this stage

601
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: I only knew little bits and pieces. I didn't know

602
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: a lot. And then fast forward from there to east

603
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: of school holidays. The two boys come to stay with me,

604
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: and my eldest son said, Dad, I'm not going back.

605
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: How old was he at this.

606
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: Stage he would have been twelve and a half. Their

607
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: adounts he was in high school, first year of high school.

608
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: So this is where it gets a bit dark every

609
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: but he said to me what was going on. He's

610
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: a super intelligent young kid, so in order to prove

611
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: to me what was going on, he was taking photos

612
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: of everything. He was storing, like dropping pins on maps.

613
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: We stayed here, we slept here in the car, We

614
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: did this sort of thing, and he said, if you

615
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: make me go back, I've got my bus pass. Instead

616
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: of getting on the bus pass to go to school,

617
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to use it to go to Central station.

618
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: I know the train timetables. I've saved some money up,

619
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to jump on a train and I'll keep

620
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: doing that until you let me stay. He even looked

621
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: up this how smart as he looked up and worked

622
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: out where the phone box was out the front, and

623
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: he said, I know, I've I ring you at ten

624
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: o'clock at night from that phone box. You'll turn up.

625
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: So he had a lot going on in his mind,

626
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: and too much for a twelve year old.

627
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: Want your kid's going through that, But good on him

628
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: to see, yea that he needed to get get away.

629
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, so you're presented with that, what do

630
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: you do? And I asked this genuinely because it's such

631
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: a difficult situation to find yourself in.

632
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, mate, I just I'm a strong believer in gut instinct,

633
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: So I just whether the things I thought things were

634
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: right or wrong at the time, I went off what

635
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: my gut told me to do. A little interesting side

636
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: story is that my son went fishing at the local

637
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: wharf and a kid was intimidating him. He was trying

638
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: to pick up his gear and get out of there.

639
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: Quit he dropped the phone with all the evidence in

640
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: the water. It was a stormy day. You couldn't see

641
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: in the bottom of the water. I'm thinking, of great,

642
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: we've lost a lot. As the lawyers were telling me,

643
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of stuff that will help

644
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: in there. So I went to work and I was

645
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: telling the boys at work about it. And when the

646
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: boys said, I know, guy, that's a diver. When you

647
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: see you'll go and have a look. I says, it's

648
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: been in the water overnight, there's been a storm. He goes,

649
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: you can't, can't to give it a go. Thank god

650
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: he did, so I get I call this young kid up.

651
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 2: He goes down and closes the wharf off. Whether that

652
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: was legal or not, I don't know, and does a

653
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: grid search in probably five foot of water back and

654
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: forwards with his hands. He said he had no visibility,

655
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: couldn't find the phone. I said, thanks for trying. You

656
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: know it's going to sling him some cash. And he

657
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: said what color was it again? And I said green.

658
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: I'm color blind, Gary, so I'm guessing colors. What happened

659
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: was my son was still there with me. He turned

660
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: around and said, Dad, look back of the phone case

661
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,239
Speaker 2: is white. The diver said, give me a second. He

662
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: goes down and what he thought was a bit of

663
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: rubbish lodged in the barnacles on the side of that wharf.

664
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: It was my son's phone, So you know, the universe

665
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: helped us a bit there. But we took that phone

666
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: to her phone fixed place and they were able to

667
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: abstract extract all of.

668
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: The information information. Okay, well that that would have helped.

669
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: So you've got evidence that the way the children have

670
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: been treated in their life. You've engaged a solicitor. What

671
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 1: is the next step the family law court?

672
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I was told to go hard early.

673
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: I had Initially I had a family law solicitor. Then

674
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: they said, no, you're not a specialist. That specialist then

675
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: said we're going to need a barrister as well. And

676
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, he goes your bank account and the family car,

677
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: whatever I can get rid of.

678
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: It's horrendous. It's horrendous.

679
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: How Yeah, but how do you put a price on

680
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: your children?

681
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah.

682
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 2: So what happened then was we had what they call

683
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 2: it an initial hearing and going back in the story,

684
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: what happened was my youngest son wasn't sure whether he

685
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 2: wanted to stay. So I made the decision again one

686
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: I regret to let him go back to his mother.

687
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: So you can imagine how that went. When I'm supposed

688
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 2: to be dropping two children back, I dropped one back.

689
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: He jumps out of the carr and says, my brother's

690
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: not coming back. This what's happened? I left there. This

691
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: was up in Sydney. I went to my now wife's place,

692
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: and shortly after I get a phone call from the

693
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: cops that are looking for a child that's kidnapped, a

694
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: child that I've kidnapped. I said, that's not the case,

695
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: my son. I've been a little bit old. By this

696
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: stage is a bit cloudy, but basically I was told

697
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: that children can sort of vote with their feet by

698
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: the time they're around fourteen. I think we're edging up

699
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: towards that. And yeah, that just started what's now becoming

700
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 2: a nightmare.

701
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: And so, okay, so there's complaints. I'm assuming from Helen

702
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: that the child's been kidnapped, and yeah, how does it

703
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: feel been accused of kidnapping your kids?

704
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: Terrible? Yeah, you know, I've been accused of a number

705
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: of things, but genocide.

706
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you been accused of genocide?

707
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 2: The genocide? Yeah? Alienation, parental alienation, yeah, just.

708
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 1: And these all the type of allegations that came against

709
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: you from Helen and whoever.

710
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what I'd like to point to Gary and

711
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: I had police say it to me, is that in

712
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 2: the nearly four years this has been going on, there

713
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: has not been a nasty text message from me. Ye,

714
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: any allegation I've made, I've been able to back up

715
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: with facts and yeah, it's not it's not good, but

716
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: I've developed a pretty thick skin through this.

717
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: It's a smart way the plant Scott. I think a

718
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: lot of people make this mistaken, especially blokes react with

719
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: anger and frustration. Then it comes back to buy it.

720
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: So if you can take a step back, keep the

721
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: emotion out of it as hard as it is, yeah,

722
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: it's beneficial.

723
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can tell you I did a lot of

724
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: soul surging through this. And I don't say this lightly,

725
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: but I asked myself where how far I'm prepared to go?

726
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 2: And I'm not somebody that makes threats. I don't believe.

727
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: Don't do what you're not prepared to carry out. But

728
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: in the case of what those people have put myself

729
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: and my family through, I'm prepared to open the gates

730
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: to hell and drag them in there with me, simple

731
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 2: as that.

732
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: I understand that from a father's point of view. Okay,

733
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: your nightmare is starting to play out. Yeah, just break

734
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: it down what you've gone through, because I know it's

735
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: been a hell of a.

736
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 2: So what happened was we returned home Somewhere shortly after that,

737
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: the courts decided that the boys couldn't be separated. So

738
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: what they did was put both the boys with me.

739
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 2: At this stage, the youngest son had been turned against

740
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 2: the eldest son, which is hard to watch.

741
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: What what what sort of things in what way?

742
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: So he was told his brother was a snitch, that

743
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: he'd caused the family break up. I found out the

744
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: change of heart to move to Sydney was that the

745
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: boys were told that they mum was going to sell

746
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: all of their stuff, you know, kids stuff, PlayStation Yeah yeah,

747
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: And you know, like I said, the oldest one was

748
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: worried that I wouldn't believe him. I was going to

749
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: send him back. And his fear was, you know, if

750
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: I tell Dad all of this has been going on,

751
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to mean a lot of trouble. Yeah.

752
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so you've got the kids.

753
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 2: So what happened was always in the Narra at the

754
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: lawyer's office, and they said go and get your son.

755
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: My son was in Sydney, his mother was in the

756
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: next street, and three and a half hours away on

757
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: a Friday afternoon in traffic. So yeah, I did what

758
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 2: I did to get up there in time. When I

759
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: get there, I noticed not only Helen there, but a

760
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: couple of the chaps, one of the chaps we've mentioned

761
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: before and another one. And I was informed by the

762
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 2: school that they'd made several attempts to get in and

763
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 2: get my son.

764
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: So when just to clarify, the person that we mentioned before,

765
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: was a person identifying as a sovereign citizen was in

766
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: the car with Helen.

767
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually further than that was identifying as a

768
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: law enforcement officer. You've soon in the.

769
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 1: Payork and you've traveled from the South Coast up to

770
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: up to Sydney to pick your younger child up. When

771
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: you've got to the got to the school that the

772
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: schools informed you that Helen and.

773
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 2: Three other two other blokes.

774
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Two blokes have been there and trying to retrieve him.

775
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, against according junction. So it was an injunction

776
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: made that day preventing her from going to the school.

777
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: How did the school handle it?

778
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: So backtracking again, I wasn't down as a contact at

779
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: the school, so when she put the kids into that school,

780
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: they weren't aware.

781
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: So you had no rights or powers you.

782
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: Can have like first second and I believe a third contact. Yeah,

783
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: I believe I was the third contact. But there was

784
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 2: no phone number. So when my kids weren't attending school

785
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 2: and they were going to list more and stuff, their

786
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 2: attendance was somewhere around the fifty percent mark. I was

787
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: unaware of that. They yeah, they weren't telling me that

788
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 2: the school hadn't called me. I thought everything was going

789
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: along rosie for them. You know, they seemed to enjoy

790
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: living in Sydney, and yeah, then I find that out

791
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: and I've you know, Principal's got my son in the

792
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: school and told me to get up there and get

793
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: him all on the way there. When I've seen these guys,

794
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: I thought I better ring the cops. I don't want

795
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: to have a punch on in front of my son

796
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: out in the front of a primary school. It's not

797
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: a good look. So I called the cops. They turned up.

798
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: They met me in the side street and I said

799
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: how is this going to work? And apparently I was

800
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: informed by the school at once. Obviously once he gets

801
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: to the edge of the school property, he's not the

802
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: school's problem. And I just could see that going pair shaped.

803
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 2: So I was in communication with this principle I'd never met,

804
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: you know, who was taking a big risk in doing

805
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: what he was doing. But he was, you know, he'd

806
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: been in communication with the boys are given like independent

807
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 2: children's lawyers, and they look after their journey through the

808
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: courts and their interest. Yeah, so I don't know it

809
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: was that person. Somebody had spoken to the school and

810
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 2: they're aware that he wasn't to go home with mum. Initially,

811
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: if she was told she could take some stuff and

812
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 2: say goodbye. But because she espoused the sovereign citizen ideologies

813
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: during the court, she was preventing by injunction and she

814
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: doesn't do no Gary.

815
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: So the sovereign citizen stuff started to come out. She

816
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: was very much embttered in.

817
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: That blue system ideology at that stage. Yeah, right in

818
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: the thick of it.

819
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: Now, the group that she was involved in, do you

820
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: want to tell us a little bit to or as

821
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: I understand that CO found that the group that referred

822
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: to as NDA. Do you want to tell us a

823
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: little bit?

824
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in Darker dalai Estralla so I think I'm

825
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: pronouncing it right. Was a group that they formed whilst

826
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: she was on the run, and they were basically offering

827
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: a life to people outside of the life the rest

828
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: of us live, you know, in the community we live,

829
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: and they were recruiting at the time. I think up

830
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: through NRANG somewhere up north there somewhat some of the

831
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: footage I saw of that was the hell and I

832
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: knew that, like, you know, if you had friends around

833
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: or a dinner party or something, she would take over

834
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: the dinner party. So I saw that part of her

835
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: personality within it. The stuff she was talking about was

836
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: completely new to me at that stage. I hadn't researched

837
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 2: any of it, and I just found it difficult to watch.

838
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: I had both of the boys in my custody, and

839
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: what she did, I believe has formed this group to

840
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: try and take the boys back and garner support.

841
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to we're going to break down all

842
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: the things that happened to you. And it's quite quite

843
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: frightening what took place. But just the NDA group and

844
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: this is. I did a bit of research on it too,

845
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: just trying to get a sense of it. And this

846
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: is how it's described. Positions itself as a movement reclaiming

847
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: indigenous sovereignty and customary law governance over Australia, challenging the

848
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: existing governmental authority and fostering the communal peaceful living based

849
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: on the ancestral traditions and natural law. So that's a

850
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: narrative in which they describe that in itself sounds relatively

851
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: and there's an alignment to indigenous, the indigenous sovereignty and

852
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: all that, But it's a lot more complicated than that.

853
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: Isn't Yeah, it is, Yeah, And you know, I'm not

854
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 2: happy with the fact that they aligned it with the indigenous. Yeah,

855
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what words to use for that, Gary,

856
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: but it's just she's not indigenous. Yeah, my children aren't indigenous.

857
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: She claims they are. I've been told that you can

858
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: be invited into a tribe through an elder. I don't

859
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: know if that's happened or not. I just don't believe

860
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: if you're not indigenous, don't claim you are. Well, it turns.

861
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: By going down that path that claims a little bit

862
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: of legitimacy, I would suggest by aligning to Indigenous issues

863
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: and there would be people that are sympathetic to that

864
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: type of thing. I've just further details, and again because

865
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking in depth about this organization,

866
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: so I think it's worthwhile probably further detail about it.

867
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: Organization that sovereignty based on Indigenous customary tribal law, declaring

868
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: itself the lawful authority over the land unofficially known as Australia.

869
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 1: It promotes the idea that purporting Australian government is illegitimate

870
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: and has ordered it to stand down. So let's just

871
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: the Australian government is illegitimate and has ordered it to

872
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: stand down, urging people to recognize themselves as self governing

873
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: under ancestral laws and unity with a demilitarized zone. The

874
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: group operates the Superior Court of the People of Namdhaka

875
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 1: Dahalis Australias, a court adhering to ancient law Speltre adjudicated

876
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: by senior law elders, and seeks to establish peace, harmony

877
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: and respect for natural and ancestral law among the land's

878
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: original bloodline descendants and others who choose to join the

879
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: communal sovereignty. Now there's a lot in that. The things

880
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: that jump out at me, the things that, yeah, the

881
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: Australian government is illegitimate, and the fact that they the

882
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: group operates the Superior Court of the People. Yes, that's

883
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: a concern, isn't it.

884
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've even heard claims to be above the

885
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 2: High Court of Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

886
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: Okay, So you've got the two men and Helen out

887
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: the school. You've called the cops. Yeah, you're in contact

888
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: with the principal. And did you manage to get the

889
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: hand over?

890
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: Did you?

891
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: The cops turned up and got called off on an

892
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: urgent job. Yeah, so, no cops. It was now dark

893
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 2: and just before I got my son, the cops and

894
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: other lot of cops arrived. I'd made several phone calls

895
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: and while they were talking to Helen and her mates,

896
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: the principal slipped my son out a side gate. You've

897
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 2: got to imagine he hasn't seen me for quite some time. Yeah,

898
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 2: he doesn't even know why I'm there.

899
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: You know.

900
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 2: So I'm having to play as I've had to do

901
00:46:58,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: a lot lot through this.

902
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 1: And wouldn't under surprise and the call order or that

903
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: surprise Dad's here.

904
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: You're coming to my place for the weekend. Yeah, how

905
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: did that.

906
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: Go down between you and him?

907
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: Well, if you're familiar with the Dukes a hazard, that's

908
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: pretty much how I drove to get out of Sydney. Yeah,

909
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: flat stick and then kind of made it like a

910
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: bit of a game for him.

911
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

912
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: I just did not want any confrontation in front of him.

913
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: We get him down, and then the next day we

914
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: have to go and get him a school uniform to

915
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: start at school. So I left my oldest son in

916
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: the house with my mother. We took him to the shops,

917
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 2: which is we call it town. It's the nearest town

918
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: and it was probably thirty five minute drive. We're at

919
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 2: the shops and my youngest son rings and he's petrified.

920
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: He said, mums here trying to get him in the house.

921
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: I said, call Triple zero. He said, I've called them

922
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: and they've told me don't open the door law until

923
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: you get here. As you'll find through through this, there's

924
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: what I believes two versions of the truth. There's the

925
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: truth as I see it and I lived it, and

926
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: there's what Helen Delaney says and her claims she wasn't

927
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: trying to get into the house for me, for my

928
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: son to go into. It's, like I said, a smart kid.

929
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 2: He took his grandmother, who's pretty frail, and himself into

930
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 2: the only room in the house. I had a locking door,

931
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: locked the door and called Triple zero. I beat the

932
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: police to the house that day, convinced him to open

933
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: the door. Shortly after they turned up, Helen wasn't there,

934
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: and then she returned while they were there, and I

935
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: think that was the first time she was arrested. She

936
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: was claiming she had court orders to have the kids.

937
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: And these claims. Is that in keeping with that she

938
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: doesn't recognize the law, our law of the land and

939
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: she's got her own law with.

940
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,959
Speaker 2: The Yeah, the the orders that cost me just shy

941
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars have put in place and a

942
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: lot of stress. Yeah, they're void in her mind, they're void. Yeah,

943
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: they don't exist.

944
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 1: It's hard to argue or being in conflict with someone

945
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: that's got that type of attitude. You know, like if

946
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: someone once said to me, if you're arguing with an idiot, too,

947
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: idiots are arguing. Yes, it certainly comes in the play.

948
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: How do you this person's not going to abide by

949
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 1: the court ruling because in their fanciful mind, the court

950
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: doesn't apply to them.

951
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. And literally all I have then to

952
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: protect my children is a piece of paper.

953
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, Well you're painting a pretty scary scenario

954
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: when they're troubling scenario when you talk and what price

955
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: do you put to look after your kids? But one

956
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars that's not one hundred thousand dollars you've

957
00:49:58,480 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: got in your back pocket.

958
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 2: I don't driver Ferrari, I can tell you that.

959
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: And all the stress associated with worrying about your kids,

960
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: seeing your kids, picking up their kids, and thinking they're

961
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: not being looked after properly. But I suppose at this

962
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: point in time, the systems working for you, the police,

963
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: have supported your the orders are in place. But now

964
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: you're dealing with a situation that, as you said, for

965
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: all the money I've spent to get that order as

966
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 1: a piece of paper that someone doesn't even acknowledge or recognize.

967
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, mate, And I believe at one stage she was

968
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: contacting three to five different LAC's basically claiming I'd stolen

969
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 2: kidding up my children. I think the word that was

970
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: getting used, was child trafficked?

971
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? Now is this she's very much embedded in the

972
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: Sovereign Citizen movement at this time. It was all this

973
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: stuff that was coming from her. You've described how she's changed,

974
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: But is this the ideology that she was now believing

975
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:55,720
Speaker 1: of believing.

976
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 2: Or living living branding?

977
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

978
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And like I said, that's a loose freedom

979
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: fighters is another term that gets thrown around, you know,

980
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 2: whatever name you put on it. If you've got people

981
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: willing to help you kidnap somebody else's children, we're not

982
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: playing around you. You know, we're at the serious end

983
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:14,919
Speaker 2: of the game.

984
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: So in that incident, she's out the front, you've called

985
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: the police, she got taken away, arrested, and then I'm

986
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 1: assuming not charged at that point in time.

987
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: No, And I think there was like an interim ABO

988
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: put in place.

989
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the first of the AVOs that

990
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: have come in the place. And what were the directions

991
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: of the av were?

992
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: I think just the basics. You can't come within five

993
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: hundred meters of myself where I go to work, that

994
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 2: sort of stuff.

995
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell us about the breaches.

996
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: The breaches, so you know, very hard as a man

997
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: when you talk about the domestic violence space, it is

998
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: predominantly women and children that have spoken about and so

999
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 2: it should be because that's where the worst of it

1000
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 2: is that I see. But there is men that go

1001
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: through this. The violence part doesn't have to be physical violence.

1002
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 2: It can just be unwanted attention. And we were getting

1003
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: quite a bit of that, text messages, phone calls, random

1004
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 2: people I didn't know, doing welfare checks on the boys,

1005
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: you know, I want to check their safe, this sort

1006
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: of thing.

1007
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: So, and these are random peo people I've never heard of,

1008
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: but people trying to make out that they've got a

1009
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: right to check this or making a full representation of

1010
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: who they are, that type of thing.

1011
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, involving themselves in my children's lives, you know. But

1012
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 2: this was going on at the police station. It's one

1013
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: of their tactics. They just flood you with phone calls,

1014
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: flood you with emails.

1015
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: When you say it was going on at the police station,

1016
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: what do you.

1017
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 2: Mean asking for welfare checks?

1018
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they're contacting the police stations, say they've got

1019
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: concerns for the kids.

1020
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So my my senses were heightened already at this stage.

1021
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 2: But we'd watched the movie with the kids. Remember, and

1022
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: I'm playing two roles, he protector of my children and

1023
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 2: dad yeah, and.

1024
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: Trying to shield your kids from all the drama.

1025
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they want to watch movies together, do you know,

1026
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: very difficult to switch between both roles. To this day,

1027
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: it's very difficult. So we'd all watch the movie. We're

1028
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: asleep on the lounge. Yeah, got the fireplace. Everything's going well,

1029
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 2: you know, and next minute, bang on my door, like

1030
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 2: you would see with those raids that you see on

1031
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 2: tap drug dealers houses, bashing on the door. It's raining.

1032
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: Open the door. There's a full driver of the spotlight

1033
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 2: on the house, saying their police they want to come in.

1034
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: I was in a bit of a Day's opened the door.

1035
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: My poor mum, she's crying at the time. She was frightened.

1036
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 2: We said what's going on? They said where's the kids?

1037
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: And I was like, here and that to me, We've

1038
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 2: been told they're locked in a cage. I think was

1039
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 2: one of the remarks from the copper. And I was like, uh,

1040
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: you know, you know we've had calls from this person,

1041
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: which was the mother, and I said, well, there's court

1042
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: orders in place, they're meant to be they are safe.

1043
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: Don't quote me on the number, Gary, but I think

1044
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 2: we had nearly twenty seven of those twenty five to

1045
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: twenty seven.

1046
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: Well fare, okay, Yeah, it's just harassment, isn't it.

1047
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and by ringing and.

1048
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm not saying police harassment, they're going to follow up

1049
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: when there's a complaint.

1050
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: No, the police were good in the end. Like what

1051
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: happened was you got different shifts. Yeah, so you know,

1052
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: one job didn't you know, how busy they get. One

1053
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 2: job didn't get picked up. Then a different car crew

1054
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 2: pick up the job, they come to the house. So

1055
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: it was happening day and night. I sort of started

1056
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: with going in to speak to the local sergeant and

1057
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 2: then I sort of bumped it up, you know.

1058
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,439
Speaker 1: And eventually the police, the local area police would start

1059
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: to understand that.

1060
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 2: The correct But where we had an issue was she

1061
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: was calling LAC's up in Sydney. So you've got I

1062
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: believe Inspector level up there saying we've had the phone call.

1063
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: We need that checked. Yeah, I can see how it

1064
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: could be manipulated. And just whining back for a sec too.

1065
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: You talked about it's difficult from a man's point of

1066
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: view when you're talking domestic violence, and that that doesn't

1067
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: have to be physical. It can be the manipulation and

1068
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 1: all that. I think it's healthy having the discussion and that, Yeah,

1069
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: the majority of domestic violence are where women are the victim,

1070
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: and the domestic violence is a broad term I'm using

1071
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: for conflict within a domestic relationship. But this type of

1072
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: manipulation and harassment, that's how I would describe what's going on.

1073
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: And if you're putting the figure in the twenties, whether

1074
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,439
Speaker 1: it's twenty seven or twenty, it doesn't matter. If it's

1075
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: just a frequency of it that can be not just

1076
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: destroy your life, destroy the kid's life. It's just yeah,

1077
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: and not to mention the waste of resource public resources.

1078
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: There is an offense called public mischief where you report

1079
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: the crime and find out that's, yeah, it's not not

1080
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: true and not justified in your reporting it. I'd be

1081
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: sort of looking towards that.

1082
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: On one occasion, I had a detective called me. I

1083
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 2: had the kids at Escape Park and he's like, where

1084
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 2: are the kids? I said that with me. I tried

1085
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: to walk away from the car to have this conversation

1086
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 2: with him. Unfortunately, bluetooth kicked in and the kids heard

1087
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: that conversation. But you know, I started to just realize,

1088
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get anywhere if I kick up

1089
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: a stink here. I've got to I've got to work

1090
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: my side of it. So what I did was, I

1091
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: was like, where's the nearest police station. I'll meet you there.

1092
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 2: I'll bring the kids there. And you know that that

1093
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: end up happening on that day again. They go through

1094
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,479
Speaker 2: sort of these questions, you know, are you okay, yep?

1095
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,879
Speaker 2: Who's that? That's dad? Do you want to be here

1096
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: with dad? Yes? You know, kids became like they didn't

1097
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: like the police very much. And you know that's why

1098
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 2: I say I won't say anything bad about the police,

1099
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 2: because I had an officer come in, could see the

1100
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 2: kids were distressed about it, grabs a footy from one

1101
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: of the boys footies and says you want to go

1102
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 2: in the yard for a kick? That legend still see

1103
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: him around town these days. Yeah, that one, That one

1104
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: act changed how the boys saw the police. Eventually we

1105
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: got to a stage where we were told that we've

1106
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 2: got to come and they said, what we need to

1107
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 2: do is just cite the boys, ask if they're okay,

1108
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 2: and that's it. So what happened then was we formulated

1109
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 2: that plan. I'd get a phone call from the police.

1110
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: We've had another call. Can you walk the boys out

1111
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: on the front Franda. They'd walk out and say, you

1112
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: know how you're going?

1113
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1114
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: All sweet little wave off off they went. We were

1115
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: you say the black about black humor? The kids want

1116
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 2: me to sell the car because every cop car in

1117
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: the area knows my car and they wave when they

1118
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 2: go past. And teenage boys are a little embarrassed.

1119
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 1: By that, but they want to be hanging out with

1120
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: the colt.

1121
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: No, yeah, no, And you know, but I think that's

1122
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: good policing.

1123
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's community policing. And the fact is that

1124
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: it's good to know that the police are going to respond,

1125
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: even if they've got their doubts. If there's just that

1126
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: one percent that they're going to just check. So they check.

1127
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: How do you deal with this like it did? Was

1128
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: she breaching the AVA by this?

1129
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 2: No others were doing it? Yeah, And then the breaches

1130
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 2: of the AVO were appearing on so we we had

1131
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: to formulate safety plans. Right, So that was drive my

1132
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 2: youngest son to school. There were two separate schools, which

1133
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: made that difficult. Driving to school, hand him over in

1134
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: the office. Once that stuff member was on him, he

1135
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: basically had someone shadow him around the school for his

1136
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 2: entire school day. That was done very cleverly by what

1137
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 2: they call an SLSO. And so he's like, oh, you

1138
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 2: know this guy. I won't mention his name, but he's like, oh,

1139
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 2: this guy plays handball with me every day and he

1140
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: does his never out of somebody's sight at any That's.

1141
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: What had to be put in place because of this.

1142
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: So when we talk in the twenties of these inquiries

1143
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: or concerns for welfare of your children over what period

1144
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: of time was.

1145
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 2: This nearly the whole family court fifteen sixteen months?

1146
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, yeah, what's the next step? What do you do?

1147
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I had safety plans put in

1148
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 2: place with the school, so they involved meetings. I then

1149
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 2: somewhere along the lines, I've gone from full time work

1150
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: back to part time. You know, I wouldn't have gotten

1151
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: to this point if it wasn't for the support of

1152
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: the family that I'm employed by. They let me go

1153
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 2: back to part time work and pretty much anything I've

1154
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: had to be at court appearances, school meetings, they just

1155
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 2: facilitated and I can't thank them enough for that. And

1156
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: I guess it got to a stage where, if you know,

1157
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 2: the school would take them on the outings to the

1158
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: park or bike riding or something. My son couldn't go

1159
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 2: to that unless I was there.

1160
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: And this is because of the concerns that they would be.

1161
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I skipped over a bit. So what had

1162
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: happened was on one occasion, I'm talking like, you can

1163
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 2: imagine how tightly you hold your kids when this goes on.

1164
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 2: So even for my son to go out and play,

1165
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 2: and I say my son, because the youngest one was

1166
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: the biggest concern. His mum was going to grab him.

1167
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 2: You know, she'd sort of cut the eldest one off

1168
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: because he was the snitch in her words. So what

1169
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 2: happened was my son used to go and play with

1170
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 2: one friend down the end of the street. I was

1171
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: advised by police you might want to throw a tracker

1172
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: on him, and I was like, what do you mean.

1173
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: They said, you know, in case he's grabbed, that's difficulty,

1174
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: very difficulty.

1175
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 1: And for police to say that that must have some

1176
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: reason I rationale behind telling you to put the tracker on.

1177
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know, don't put it in a

1178
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 2: school bag, because that'll be the first thing gets thrown away.

1179
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: And my head's spinning. So we come up with a

1180
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: plan there, and I won't go into where or how

1181
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 2: he carries it, but he still does to this day

1182
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: when he's outside where we are. So we formulated a

1183
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 2: plan with his friend down the corner that he'd ride

1184
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: the bike down. As he turned around the corner, I

1185
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: couldn't see him. The other mother was on the phone

1186
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 2: and she says, yep, I can see him. They'd play together,

1187
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: and then when he was coming home she'd ring. I'd say, yes,

1188
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 2: I can see him. We're talking maybe one hundred and

1189
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: fifty two hundred meters. He's gone around that corner, and

1190
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 2: I believe the mum was watching them play outside. She's

1191
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 2: gone inside for a second to check the dinner or

1192
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 2: something like that. My son gets approached by somebody that

1193
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: it passes him a cryptic note and says, don't tell anybody,

1194
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 2: but mummy's coming to get you tomorrow.

1195
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 1: Any idea who that was or.

1196
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: We managed to get CCTV footage, but police were never

1197
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 2: able to find that person. Male female, female, Yeah, and

1198
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: my son knew the face but couldn't say the name.

1199
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: He just said he'd seen that face in the camps,

1200
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: and the camps meant wherever they'd stayed during.

1201
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: That Mummy's coming to get you.

1202
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he come home that afternoon, is very quiet. Yeah,

1203
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,439
Speaker 2: so for an hour or so. He's a very deep

1204
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 2: thinking sort of child. So I just sort of gave

1205
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: him a bit of space and then I said to him,

1206
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: what's up. We need to have a chat, and he

1207
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: passed me the little note. He wouldn't talk. Gary was Froe.

1208
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: So when the cryptic note actual physically gave him a note.

1209
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there was when I say CRYPTI there

1210
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: was no writing on it. There's a thing called a

1211
01:02:55,360 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 2: mood ring, and he was given the mood ring. And

1212
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 2: then his mum kept the little bit of cardboard that

1213
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 2: tells you what color is what mood and it was

1214
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 2: folded up in a wallet. This is what he's told me,

1215
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 2: And he said that he knew that was mum's. So

1216
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: that was the way of telling him, Okay, yeah, that's

1217
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 2: what I believe, and something over.

1218
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: He could relate to it.

1219
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And you can imagine the confusion going

1220
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 2: on because he's already missing his mum and you can't

1221
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 2: when you're going through the court process. Don't discuss it

1222
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 2: with the children. They put you in a pretty difficult

1223
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 2: position because they see in all the moods and everything

1224
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 2: that goes on. Yeah, very difficult position, and.

1225
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: You can't discuss any of its, explain what's going on, Yeah,

1226
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,960
Speaker 1: because you're contaminated. Yeah.

1227
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: And around this time, Gary, I guess I took on

1228
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 2: the role of investigator as well as, you know, his

1229
01:03:54,960 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 2: personal security guard. So I actually went. He was approached

1230
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: twice in he didn't he loves riding his bike, so

1231
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: he didn't not want to ride his bike anymore. So

1232
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 2: I just said to this mum, you know, we'll do

1233
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 2: the same thing. But I was floating around. It actually

1234
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 2: annoyed him. I was floating around in the car, so

1235
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 2: I was watching him from a distance. I wasn't going

1236
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: to have that happen a second time. So I'd driven

1237
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 2: up the street to do a U turn. The kids

1238
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 2: were playing out the front of the local service station.

1239
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 2: They had a little jump there. The guy in the

1240
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: service station, I knew as I've gone to turn the

1241
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 2: car around up the end of the street sort of,

1242
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: I was patrolling. He's approached again. But this time, the

1243
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 2: same woman, same car. This was when we were able

1244
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 2: to put it to because when I found out about

1245
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 2: the first occasion, I flew down there at a rate

1246
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 2: of knights. Nobody around. We live in an area where,

1247
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: you know, it's a small community, so.

1248
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 1: A strange car, I'll stick out.

1249
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 2: It'll stick out. Yeah, So I went to the local

1250
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 2: service station after he it said the lady come again.

1251
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 2: But she walked, I believe, up to approach him, and

1252
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 2: then passed him and went to go on the service station.

1253
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 2: And the attendant thought it was funny that she didn't

1254
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 2: go in, and then turned around and say, I think

1255
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 2: he sort of caught partial license plate over the vehicle.

1256
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: So I'd say maybe she got, you know, spooped a

1257
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 2: bit or something a couple of days. So obviously I'm

1258
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: calling the police with all of this, they said. I

1259
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 2: remember one police officer said to me, make these things

1260
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 2: contend to make you a little bit paranoid, And I'm like,

1261
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 2: for an approach to that quick, Gary. They're watching, right,

1262
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 2: So then Wet tightened security around him a lot more.

1263
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 2: We were driving to the school along the school run

1264
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 2: at the bottom of our street, just outside the range

1265
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: of the AVA is Helen walking up the street. This

1266
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 2: is on the school.

1267
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: Run, and then she'd have no businessman down there. It's

1268
01:05:57,800 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: not like she's and half hours away.

1269
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, way smiling. You know, it's not a

1270
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 2: physical thing, but not meant to be there. You imagine

1271
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 2: the confusion.

1272
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: You've had these approaches by the unknown woman you've had, Helen.

1273
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: They're not breaching the AVA because he's just outside meither

1274
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: outside the five hundred mether radius. Where do you go

1275
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: to from there?

1276
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 2: So two things happened very quickly. So shortly after the

1277
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 2: police come to tell me that the vehicle was linked

1278
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 2: to that male that we mentioned before who lives ten

1279
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 2: hours away.

1280
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: Okay, and this male being the person that was very

1281
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: vocal in the car front passengers car of the video

1282
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 1: that we played when Helen was arrested and refused to

1283
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 1: acknowledge police power.

1284
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. So that kicked me up another gear again. Yeah, okay,

1285
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 2: this is now working in company with others.

1286
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:01,840
Speaker 1: And all these people are associated to the NDA, the

1287
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: Sovereign Citizen Movement.

1288
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. So then the interesting thing was there the police

1289
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 2: are on the way to tell me they've they've linked

1290
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 2: that vehicle to this person and the car is laying

1291
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 2: in wait in another side street just up there over

1292
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 2: my house. So they approached it. It sped off, I believe,

1293
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 2: a short pursuit insured and they got away and I

1294
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 2: was sort of told, you know, we've got a number

1295
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 2: plate recognition. It won't get all the way back to

1296
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 2: where it comes from. I said, well, it god, all

1297
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 2: the way down here, didn't it. And when I meet

1298
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 2: up a gear, that's when I really started taking the

1299
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 2: protection of my son extremely serious.

1300
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: So your your concern, based on the stuff that had

1301
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: been happening to you in the situations you found yourself in,

1302
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: was that your son was going to be abducted.

1303
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll take you to Constant And you know,

1304
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 2: reoccurring nightmares that my son was having was and I

1305
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 2: had to go out and comfort him when he wakes

1306
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 2: up screaming, was that somebody was pulling a bag over

1307
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 2: his head and dragging him off his bike. Now that's

1308
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 2: come directly from that person. You know, they didn't grab him,

1309
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 2: They just approached him, approached him, but it frightened him.

1310
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 2: That's taken a lot of counseling to get him through that.

1311
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 2: You know, kids should be worried about getting lollies from

1312
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 2: the corner shop, hanging out with their mates, fun times.

1313
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:26,560
Speaker 1: Totally carefree, no responsibility.

1314
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, these kids have been treated like they

1315
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 2: belong to movie stars. You know, they've They've got myself

1316
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 2: and others following them around and protecting them in their

1317
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 2: day to day activities right.

1318
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: Now, and they'd be aware of that. Part of the

1319
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,679
Speaker 1: fun was getting away from the scrutiny of your parents

1320
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: and people watching what you're doing.

1321
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, even to play that. The kids love their footy,

1322
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 2: even play footy. I'm patrolling the car park. Other fathers

1323
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 2: are watching for faces we don't know. Yeah, you know,

1324
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 2: the community has been sensational in the they've given. My

1325
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 2: kids are nowhere in our community without eyes on them,

1326
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: you know, it's just how it has to be.

1327
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:11,440
Speaker 1: So you've got the police have got this car that's

1328
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: been identified in the vicinity of where your son is,

1329
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: and that's linked to the group that Helen's involved with

1330
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,640
Speaker 1: from ten ten hours.

1331
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 2: Away up the North coast.

1332
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, living a normal life when you feel like you've

1333
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 1: been watched all the time and you've got people stalking

1334
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 1: and tracking the movements of your kids, how did that

1335
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:33,799
Speaker 1: affect you personally?

1336
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 2: I'll have been. I did Victims of crime counseling, Yeah,

1337
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 2: was recommended to me. I during that was displaying all

1338
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 2: the signs of pdsdeh. I think that's a term that's

1339
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 2: thrown around pretty loosely these days. But you know, they

1340
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 2: did psycho tests some men stuff like that, and they

1341
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 2: just said, you're super hyper vigilant. So I was, it's

1342
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 2: enough and for me to be running eighteen nineteen hour days.

1343
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 2: There was stages there where I was I think, blacking

1344
01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 2: out Gary I was, I was coming to you know,

1345
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:16,679
Speaker 2: not remembering getting it, getting out of bed and lying

1346
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:20,040
Speaker 2: behind the front fence, tooled up, ready to go.

1347
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: I kind of.

1348
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 2: Likened it to when I was when I was working

1349
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,720
Speaker 2: on the door. I used to I'm a pretty passive guy.

1350
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:27,639
Speaker 2: Used to get a kick out of talking blokes down,

1351
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 2: you know, not punching on with them. A kind of

1352
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 2: when I put on that uniform, I become a different

1353
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 2: person to who I was he my own life. So

1354
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 2: I went back to that. The unfortunate side of it

1355
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 2: is I didn't take the uniform off and I still

1356
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,759
Speaker 2: haven't to this day. You know, I've become a different person.

1357
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 2: My wife has said that this has changed our lives forever,

1358
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 2: and that's exactly what it's done.

1359
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: Okay, look, we might we might take a break. Now.

1360
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,800
Speaker 1: What you're going through is horrendous and you're describing it

1361
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: very well. Indeed, tell and the build up and the

1362
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 1: frustration and all the things that go into there. When

1363
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: we get back for part two, we're going to talk

1364
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 1: about you. You're getting served a warrant from the nda

1365
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: Supreme Court of the World or whatever.

1366
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 2: They that's another fact of the case that did happen.

1367
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the court matter, and I've got some

1368
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: extracts from the transcripts of things that Helen said in

1369
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,760
Speaker 1: the court just to give the listeners a sense of

1370
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: what you're dealing with here. I think you coming out

1371
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: and speaking and I know before we spoke on the podcast,

1372
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: you want people to understand these are the things that

1373
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,680
Speaker 1: can happen, and this is the impact it can have.

1374
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: Is that the basis of your talking here, Yeah, it's.

1375
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 2: That it's to tell other men out there. Yep, the

1376
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 2: domestic violence is real for you. Everybody's case is different.

1377
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 2: I understand that you've got to stand up. Yeah, you know,

1378
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 2: you've got to grow up here and stand up and

1379
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 2: say this is not okay, Well.

1380
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 1: I suppose flip it and what you've discribe. Now, if

1381
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,680
Speaker 1: it was a woman in this situation, the man was doing.

1382
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 2: That, I'd already be sitting in silver Water.

1383
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: Well you said it, I didn't.

1384
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 2: Well that's the truth.

1385
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: I think we need to have that discussion. If you

1386
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: flipped it was a man stalking.

1387
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 2: Moon like that, and sometimes.

1388
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: And quite rightly, you should be sitting in silver War

1389
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 1: the prison if you're doing that.

1390
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 2: I agree totally.

1391
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,719
Speaker 1: I think it's a healthy discussion to have about. Yeah,

1392
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: sometimes males are the victims in these situations.

1393
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I pointed out to you Gary in

1394
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 2: a letter I sent you that, and you know where

1395
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:42,759
Speaker 2: I grew up. Real number one was don't fuck around

1396
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:47,760
Speaker 2: with another person's family. Yeah, they chose the wrong men's

1397
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:50,240
Speaker 2: family to fuck around with in this case. So I'm

1398
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 2: not going away. I'll do it publicly, I'll stand in

1399
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: front of them, I'll do I'll take it to whatever

1400
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 2: level they want to take it to. But they chose

1401
01:12:57,400 --> 01:12:59,200
Speaker 2: the wrong fucking family to mess with.

1402
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: And watch I like the messaging. Yeah, and that quite right.

1403
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: You can't be intimidated or harassed. And good on you

1404
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,560
Speaker 1: for standing up to them. Let's have a break and

1405
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: come back. And I think when people listen to some

1406
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: of the some of the transcripts from the court matter,

1407
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: they'll get a sense of what you're dealing with and

1408
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 1: how difficult it was.

1409
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks to look forward to it.

1410
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: Okay, cheers,