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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Mentor. I'm Mark Boris Paul Scully. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Mentor.

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Speaker 2: Mate, thanks very much, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: And I hope you appreciate that I'm dressed in my

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Speaker 1: podcasting gear, but you're looking magnificent there in your ministerial outfit.

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Speaker 2: I prefer to be dressed in the podcasting gear to

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Speaker 2: be honest with you, be more comfortable.

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Speaker 1: And let's just establish it. So we're doing this the

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Speaker 1: couple of days before the Grand Final. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: when we're going to go there with this show, but

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I need to know straight up. Who do

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Speaker 1: you go for in rugby league.

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Speaker 2: I'm a Dragons fan, but as a boyfriend the Gong

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Speaker 2: recovering Steelers fan, I think is best.

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Speaker 1: Just wow. Yeah, so you're Dragons and because of this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because of the merger. Yeah yeah, so after twenty

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Speaker 2: eight years, I should get over it and just move on.

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Speaker 1: To sure s George's will warr anyway? Yeah, absolutely, see

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Speaker 1: you're from the Gong.

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Speaker 2: I am born and raised, born and.

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Speaker 1: Raised and by the way, Peter of Lentnesses too, Yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Cra High, where my dad went a few years before.

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Speaker 1: Peter though Okay, So tell me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your background, because we're very rare to do our do

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Speaker 1: audiences get to anyone voters for them. It gets too

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Speaker 1: much about people's backgrounds when they're in Parliament especially, and

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Speaker 1: people actually believe not really interested in that stuff. So

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about the Scully family. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So my mum moved here from post World War II

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Speaker 2: Germany when she was five, and my dad's families of

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Speaker 2: Irish descent. He was a truck driver his entire life.

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Speaker 2: Mum was a cleaner, and then they went on to

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Speaker 2: own their own small business at airport shuttle service that

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Speaker 2: they ran. But yeah, born and raised in the Gong

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Speaker 2: and my wife is the federal MP for that area.

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Speaker 2: So where one of those strange and rare couples that

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Speaker 2: are really lockstep in terms of our professional lives. Political family, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: full political family. Yeah so yeah, federal MP, State MP

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Speaker 2: one one house.

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Speaker 1: When you said your mom and dad had a business

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Speaker 1: withsin airport shuttles, are you saying that they were shuttling

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Speaker 1: people from the ill warred district will Go and blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah to Sydney Airport.

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Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely yes, So they used to have a number.

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Speaker 2: I think they got to four at the end, twelve

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Speaker 2: seedar buses so people could drive them on a standard license,

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Speaker 2: and they do a few trips a day across those

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Speaker 2: to either the airport to drop people off to go

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Speaker 2: on holidays or business pick people up and take them

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Speaker 2: back home, or go to cruise ships as well.

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Speaker 1: And your mum actually born in Germany.

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Speaker 2: She was Yeah, she was born in Ninburg and emigrated

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Speaker 2: when she was five.

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Speaker 1: Did Why did the family come to Australia.

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Speaker 2: My grandfather's Latvian and my grandmother's German, And they decided

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Speaker 2: that post World War two Germany wasn't the place where

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Speaker 2: they'd have a good opportunity. So they had a couple

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Speaker 2: of options. So there was a line to go to

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Speaker 2: migrate to Canada and a line to migrate to Australia.

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Speaker 2: The line to migrate to Australia was a bit shorter,

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Speaker 2: so they jumped in that one and yeah, lo and

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Speaker 2: behold here we are. Mum ended up moving to Wollongong,

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Speaker 2: or to Mount Kembler, a small mining village outside of Wollongong,

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Speaker 2: in the early couple of years after she got there,

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Speaker 2: and hasn't hasn't left that village since.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting about that because I happen to

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Speaker 1: know someone who has exactly the same grandparent heritage Latvian

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Speaker 1: and German. And it's interesting fact, I presume the same

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Speaker 1: exists in your family. But during the war, prior to

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Speaker 1: the World War Two, the Russians always had eyes for

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Speaker 1: Latvia and Estonia and Lithuania, et cetera. And you know,

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Speaker 1: probably similar to the geopolitical conflict that's going on to

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Speaker 1: the moment in that part of the world. And Germany

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Speaker 1: befriended Latvian said listen, we'll protect it from the Russians.

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Speaker 2: Because it didn't work.

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Speaker 1: What's going to happen? And and a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of and Germany went into latviin and it didn't

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Speaker 1: work out that well. And of course the war started

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Speaker 1: with Russia et cetera. But it didn't work at that well,

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Speaker 1: and poor or Laffey was sort of stuck in between

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Speaker 1: let's call it two enemies. And but a lot of

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Speaker 1: Latvian people, as as I understood it from the conversation

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Speaker 1: I have with this family, actually decided to marry German

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Speaker 1: soldiers and women will marry a German soldier and because

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Speaker 1: they felt like as though they would be the get

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Speaker 1: some sort of level of protection by doing that. And

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Speaker 1: then that a lot of them actually emigrated to Adelaide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. And they've got a strong, strong German

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Speaker 2: heredage in that and that's that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then one one family who I can sort of

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Speaker 1: I don't mind naming, actually is the you might be

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Speaker 1: too young to remember, but the very famous family is

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Speaker 1: called the Spalvin's family. John Spalvins, who is a Latvian

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Speaker 1: but his mother end up remarrying because his father was

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Speaker 1: unfortunately killed but during the war, but his mother remarried

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Speaker 1: a German soldier and whose name was bloomin Tel's, which

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Speaker 1: as I understand, means blooming Valley in German. And they

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Speaker 1: emigrated to South Australia. And quite a number of these

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Speaker 1: individuals actually in the small businesses could be involved in

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Speaker 1: them wine industry or something like that, particularly in Adelaide,

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Speaker 1: and a great contributors to the Australian, to Australia in

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Speaker 1: terms of you know, effort, great contributors and more. I

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Speaker 1: look at you, I can see there's you got the

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Speaker 1: people maybe they're watching on the camera or your camera

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Speaker 1: number two. He's got striking blue eyes and you actually

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Speaker 1: I can see that the likeness from the northern Europe

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Speaker 1: and the people from Latvia. Germans we know a lot

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Speaker 1: more about, but Lafa we know a little about. But

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Speaker 1: amazingly well educated people unbelievable things like music. Music is

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Speaker 1: a huge part of their life. Huge and is your mum.

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Speaker 2: Is your mum still by the way they are, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: mum and dads still are so unfortunate with that, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: they instilled that in Mum particularly, you know, insisted that

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Speaker 2: I learned an instrument when I was younger, and I

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Speaker 2: ended up studying piano for thirteen years right through primary

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Speaker 2: school and high school, so you doing. I didn't do

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Speaker 2: it in the HC. No, I was a bit more boring.

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Speaker 2: I did economics and maths and physics and chemistry, so

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Speaker 2: very much not on the creative side of things in

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Speaker 2: that sense. But I kept up the music because it

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Speaker 2: was just a diversion from from other things that you

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Speaker 2: had to do. So I'd managed to squeeze all of

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Speaker 2: that together with a bit of work, part time work

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: So I did the same thing I did music and

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Speaker 1: the h and and I don't do anymore, but only

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Speaker 1: because keep my mum happy. But my mum's irish, but

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Speaker 1: like kept I'm happy. But but one thing I've learned

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Speaker 1: about that, and maybe you just mentioned maths and economics,

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Speaker 1: one thing I learned is later on life is that

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Speaker 1: music at a young age, particularly piano, is very instructive

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Speaker 1: informative for young people to become good at maths.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was I think that was part of the

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Speaker 2: reason because I ended up doing it because I was

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Speaker 2: getting in trouble at primary school and year like year

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Speaker 2: two or something, I was at the principal's office more

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Speaker 2: than I was at my desk, and the principal said

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Speaker 2: it was a small school, Mount Kembler. I think by

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Speaker 2: the time I left in year six there were ninety

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Speaker 2: six kids enrolls. I was small, right, And the principal said, well,

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Speaker 2: he's bored, so give him something that's going to challenge him.

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Speaker 2: And my grandmother, for whatever reason, had a piano at

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Speaker 2: her place. It was the heaviest thing known to my

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Speaker 2: rights uprights cast iron inside you know, sixteen people made

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Speaker 2: sort of move it and that was that was how

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Speaker 2: piano was chosen. Because there was an instrument there because

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Speaker 2: mom and dad couldn't afford it anything else for us.

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Speaker 1: So that's amazing. So, like I always, I find it fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Maybe other people don't, but I find it fascinating when

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Speaker 1: someone has that sort of sort of story. And what

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Speaker 1: do you as a kid, Well, if you remember back

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Speaker 1: as a kid and today you're a politician and you're

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Speaker 1: a minister, and when you are the minister for I'm

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Speaker 1: going to get us right now, planning planning in publics

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Speaker 1: and public spaces right And we'll talk about that in

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Speaker 1: a moment. But what do you think that that upbringing,

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Speaker 1: with that sort of background left you with in relation

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Speaker 1: to how you live your life as a as a

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Speaker 1: as a minister today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the thing that was instilled in most

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Speaker 2: is work hard no matter what you do. And mom

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Speaker 2: and dad weren't ever worried about what myself or my

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Speaker 2: brother or my sister would end up doing in life.

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Speaker 2: It was just make sure you tried hard at school

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Speaker 2: to go as far as you could. I was the

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Speaker 2: first of my family to go to university.

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Speaker 1: Where where do you sit in terms of brothers system?

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Speaker 2: I'm the oldest, so that helped. But but you know,

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Speaker 2: so just try and get a good education, try and

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Speaker 2: make a good deal in life. And as dad said,

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Speaker 2: don't don't end up as a truck driver like he did.

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Speaker 2: He goes us too hard work, that is it.

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Speaker 1: By the way, truck driving is hard. Yeah, was he

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Speaker 1: doing long haul driving?

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Speaker 2: No, he was doing a lot around the steel works,

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Speaker 2: mainly and local stuff. But you know B doubles, you know,

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Speaker 2: from from sort of coal body trucks to B doubles.

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Speaker 2: There was enough work around the steel works at times

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Speaker 2: to keep him well and truly busy. But in order

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Speaker 2: to pay the mortgage and keep us fed and clothed

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Speaker 2: and everything, it meant double ships. So there wasn't too

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Speaker 2: many days of the week where Dad wasn't wasn't working

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Speaker 2: even though he was employed at the time by someone,

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Speaker 2: he wasn't an owner driver. But yeah, he still had

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Speaker 2: to work hard to keep the money coming in.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel grateful to your parents? Just not so

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Speaker 1: much for what they told you, but for what you

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Speaker 1: saw them do extraordinarily, Like it's the mens, haven't I

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Speaker 1: don't want to. I'm not here to blow smoke up

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Speaker 1: anyone's you know what, But I have to say, like

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Speaker 1: you know, some liberal party people will get really upset

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Speaker 1: with me saying this, But I've been a big fan

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Speaker 1: of the Men's Government, and I mean I interviewed Daniel

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Speaker 1: your Treasurer movie recently, and I've obviously I've interviewed the

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Speaker 1: premiere before. The Men's Government seems to and Stephen, you know,

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Speaker 1: they go, you, your minister, what's Stephen? Minnesota?

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Speaker 2: Minnesota jobs, tourism, a small business, small business.

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Speaker 1: And it seems to me that all of you guys

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Speaker 1: down to worth come from normal families, hard working families,

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Speaker 1: have got really good values pretty much not left, not right.

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Speaker 1: You're sort of sitting in the middle somewhere, and you

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Speaker 1: get it like it's just I mean, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you know, it literally is my first conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: But I'm getting that sent straight up.

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Speaker 2: There's there's there's not no airs and graces on some

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Speaker 2: of us, like we all came most of us came

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Speaker 2: through public education system, have have lived in our communities

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Speaker 2: for a long time, so seen the good and the bad,

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Speaker 2: and genuinely there to to try and make a difference

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Speaker 2: to those people, to make that make it easier for

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Speaker 2: the next generation coming through, you know, and that shuld

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Speaker 2: that's sort of always been the Australian social contract, you know,

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Speaker 2: is that everyone should be there and if they can

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Speaker 2: use their position to make to raise the standard of living,

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Speaker 2: make it easier for those who are coming through after you.

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Speaker 1: So we are going to talk about the standard living

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Speaker 1: and how New South Wales government, you know, the men's

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Speaker 1: government at the moment, and in particularly your contribution, how

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Speaker 1: you direct yourself towards raising the stand living because I

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Speaker 1: think just as a punter, I think and I'm lucky

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Speaker 1: my stand living is a certain level because I've had

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Speaker 1: some lack of my life, But most Australians have been

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Speaker 1: going backwards by most measures on standard living. And let's

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Speaker 1: just talk about New South Wales. I'm probably more so

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Speaker 1: the case in New South well because we're the biggest,

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Speaker 1: most populous stable maybe, but it doesn't matter. We you know,

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Speaker 1: we have we got people here who are they're stand

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Speaker 1: living sound backwards and it relates to housing and relates

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Speaker 1: to everything and you know, jobs and what opportunities, and

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Speaker 1: I do want to talk to about that because I

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Speaker 1: think that is the most important fundamental value that governments

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Speaker 1: need to governm for, apart from safety and make sure

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Speaker 1: we're enough water and we've got the roads or all

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, but just my standard of living,

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Speaker 1: you know, how I live my life. Can I afford

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Speaker 1: to live in this house? Can I afford them mortgage

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Speaker 1: like your dad and mum always trying to make sure

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Speaker 1: of Can I afford the rent if you're just renting?

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Speaker 1: Can I afford to send my kids to soccer and

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Speaker 1: or maybe get my daughters taught another or musical instrument.

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Speaker 2: And as we live longer, can we afford our retirements?

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Speaker 1: That is the critical one.

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Speaker 2: And this is all of the tensions that are playing

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Speaker 2: themselves out. And while it doesn't sound like the immediate

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Speaker 2: portfolio that would have a great deal of influence on it,

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Speaker 2: planning does. That's because it's about how we most efficiently

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Speaker 2: use our land to advance the economic, social, and environmental

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Speaker 2: needs of the state for the future. For the future.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm really glad to raise that we're living longer

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Speaker 1: thing because I met I had John Howard here last

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Speaker 1: this week actually, and I was talking to about a

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Speaker 1: variety of things. We're talking about some of the great

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Speaker 1: policies of previous governments, and we hit on poor Keating's

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Speaker 1: compulsory super innovation or the super innovation Guarantee for employees,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the great on a global basis.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the great policies ever been put into place,

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Speaker 1: and not only just to make sure that you know,

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Speaker 1: individuals employees, one day we'll have some money retire, but

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Speaker 1: on the flip side, taking the burden away from government

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Speaker 1: having to provide from when they do retire, because most

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Speaker 1: countries in the world they're broke if you look at

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Speaker 1: the liability they have Japan.

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Speaker 2: Japan is a real challenge with an aging population, and

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Speaker 2: we've got a similarly aging population, but we've been able

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Speaker 2: to cater for elephant elements of it by making the

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Speaker 2: big calls some time ago. That allows them to go through.

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Speaker 2: It allows compound interest. What is it the eighth grade

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Speaker 2: wonder of the world. I said, it's there's time needed

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Speaker 2: for that to really take effect. So by the Hawk

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Speaker 2: and Keyting governments making those calls in conjunction with the

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Speaker 2: labor movement at the time through the accord process, that

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Speaker 2: allowed a lot of people who would have relied only

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Speaker 2: and solely on the pension to set themselves up for life,

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Speaker 2: for a comfortable retirement, and my parents among them. They've

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Speaker 2: been able to turn their hard work through their business

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Speaker 2: in the end primarily into something that set them up comfortably.

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Speaker 2: And they're not wealthy by any way, shape or form,

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Speaker 2: but they're comfortable. If you're comfortably will that's right exactly.

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Speaker 2: And they know that they can go about their life

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Speaker 2: and not have to think terribly much about what they do.

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Speaker 2: They're not got extravagance lives, but they've got a life

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Speaker 2: that they know that they'll be able to feed themselves.

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Speaker 2: If they get sick, they'll be able to pay for

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Speaker 2: any doctors or anything like that, they'll be able to

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Speaker 2: get around and if they need it in time hopefully,

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Speaker 2: but if they need it in time, they'll be able

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Speaker 2: to get some help in at home. And that sort

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Speaker 2: of time they've exactly and they don't have to then

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Speaker 2: worry about calling on the rest of the family to

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Speaker 2: try and do that, particularly as they're raising their own kids.

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Speaker 1: So that's social contract it is that they've now enjoyed

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Speaker 1: that they got from previous governments. Whether a liberal labor

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter to me. To me, that's gold

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Speaker 1: for those individually your parents. We are now have a

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Speaker 1: whole cohort of younger people who I recently I've actually

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Speaker 1: engaged in an actually to do this work for me

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Speaker 1: to say, if a young person lives beyond eighty one,

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Speaker 1: which is the age of Australia male eighty two for

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Speaker 1: female thereabouts, if they live to ninety one, but they're

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Speaker 1: only putting enough money away under the current actually.

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Speaker 2: Where calculations when would they run out?

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Speaker 1: Correct? So they either got to work longer post sixty

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Speaker 1: five with the assumes you leave the sixty five assumes

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Speaker 1: you make a certain amount per annum on the contributions

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Speaker 1: at nine, ten, eleven two percent. However it has been so,

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Speaker 1: but the assumption is also they're going to spend it

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Speaker 1: all and die at eighty one.

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Speaker 2: There also assumes that you're secure in your housing. And

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Speaker 2: you got that was the other paint was part of it, right.

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Speaker 2: The assumption was for the vast majority of people, they'd

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Speaker 2: get to the point of retirement where they own their

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Speaker 2: own correct, and we're only doing maintenance to keep it going.

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Speaker 1: And now we've got these things.

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Speaker 2: Now we've got a big challenge with that, and that's

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Speaker 2: what's eroding some fundamental.

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Speaker 1: So do you guys talk with this? Do you guys?

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Speaker 1: When I see you guys, you you know the senior

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Speaker 1: people are in parliament, sit arounds in your parliament, state parliament,

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Speaker 1: and you said the last state government. Do you sit

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Speaker 1: around and say, well, I mean I loved enough. This

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Speaker 1: conversation gets had. You know, we've got to play our

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Speaker 1: part in the national game. But it's really federal government

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Speaker 1: can't do much about any this anyways. Mostly state governments

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Speaker 1: do it anyway, and or counsels. Do you sit around say,

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Speaker 1: you know, my kids, your kids, maybe they won't have

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Speaker 1: the same outcome as you and or your parents will have.

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Speaker 1: When your kids are sixty five seventy seventy five, they

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Speaker 1: might not own their own home because they might ever

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Speaker 1: be able to afford to get one one two, They

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Speaker 1: may not have enough superheros because the medical health technology

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Speaker 1: are going to make them live longer anyway, even though

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Speaker 1: they don't want it. It's going to make them live longer.

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Speaker 1: But they won't live the life that your mum and

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Speaker 1: dad live. You just said your mom and didn't have

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Speaker 1: the same as my mom, and they had the luxury

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Speaker 1: of having an annual holiday and it's just a balanous nothing.

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Speaker 1: Fancy owning their own car and maybe able to get

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Speaker 1: a new cavery five years, not having to pay the

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Speaker 1: mortgage obs so they've got security of their own home,

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Speaker 1: being able to leave something to the kids, because that's

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Speaker 1: the big thing in their lives, leave them for the kids,

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Speaker 1: and be able to go to the hospital if they

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Speaker 1: need to go the doctor, they need to get transport off,

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Speaker 1: they need to and put reasonable food on the table.

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Speaker 2: Well, we do we talk about that in the context

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Speaker 2: of the challenges we've got to face.

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Speaker 1: Right, So actual conversational versations.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it might be one on one or small groups

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Speaker 2: or the like, but it's trying to work through some

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Speaker 2: of those challenges. So and the big one that we've

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Speaker 2: been working through that directly is in my portfolio responsibilities,

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Speaker 2: or at least it has a big contribution to it.

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Speaker 2: How do we build more homes in New South Wales,

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Speaker 2: How do we make sure that New South Wales is

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Speaker 2: attracting international investment to create help create jobs, and how

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Speaker 2: do we make sure that the economy is working as

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Speaker 2: best it can when it comes to balancing up the

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Speaker 2: varying needs of conflicting land use opportunities throughout not only

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Speaker 2: Sydney but throughout the entire state. And that's the essence

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Speaker 2: of the planning portfolio.

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Speaker 1: So, Paul, if you don't mind, forgot, just let's look

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Speaker 1: at housing for example, dwellings necessarily talking about houses, but anytime.

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Speaker 2: We do it it's a roof ovor someone's hand exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know the old system, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all greats train dream is to have a house.

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Speaker 1: But these days I think younger people have different views

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Speaker 1: on it, and younger people have a different sort of

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Speaker 1: interaction with societally. I mean a lot of them. Let's

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Speaker 1: just like to join up and go on holidays Gold

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Speaker 1: Coast or whatever they want to do. Where does your

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Speaker 1: portfolio fit into that part? Just Housing South Wales contribution

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Speaker 1: to the one point two million houses over what it

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Speaker 1: was announce SLEPT I think two.

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Speaker 2: Years ago yep. So over the five years to mid

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty nine, New South Wales's contribution is three hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy thousand, seventy seven thousand new homes in total.

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Speaker 1: And we've already had a year a year yep. How

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Speaker 1: far where are you at?

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Speaker 2: We're further behind than what we'd like. When we were elected,

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Speaker 2: the forecast for that five year period was one hundred

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Speaker 2: and a year no total to five years one hundred

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Speaker 2: and eighty thousand, was it? So we're trying to crank

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Speaker 2: it up.

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Speaker 1: That was your forecast?

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Speaker 2: That was yeah, that was what we got. When you

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Speaker 2: become a minister, they give you the thing known as

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Speaker 2: the Incoming Government Minister's Brief, and you looked at that

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Speaker 2: and one of the first glaring statistics I saw there

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Speaker 2: is the forecast for home building in New South Wales

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Speaker 2: over the next five years is one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: thousand homes. Now we've got a target of three hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy seven thousand homes. That's a big gap we

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Speaker 2: had to close. And part of that is because we

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Speaker 2: simply haven't been building enough over a long period of time.

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Speaker 2: So over the last couple of decades we've been building

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Speaker 2: six homes per thousand people, and what per thousand people

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Speaker 2: in New South Wales so yeah, yeah a year and

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Speaker 2: Victoria and Queensland have been building eight and nine per thousand.

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Speaker 1: The building more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then you overlay that with another challenge of

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Speaker 2: an aging population, because the proportion of single person households

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Speaker 2: is going to grow to roughly the same size as

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Speaker 2: the proportion of two adults two kids. But each and

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Speaker 2: each change each decimal place change in the average number

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Speaker 2: of people in a house in New South Wales in

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Speaker 2: Australia rather adds about one hundred and six one hundred

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Speaker 2: and the need for one hundred and sixty thousand new

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Speaker 2: dwellings in total. Well, right, so that's a big dynamic

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Speaker 2: and a big change in and of itself. Overlay that

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Speaker 2: with the fact that Sydney has become the second least

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Speaker 2: at least affordable city on the planet. Beaten on the planet,

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Speaker 2: we're only beaten by Hong Kong. That's not good. And

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Speaker 2: we're the eight hundred and fifty ninth least dense city

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Speaker 2: on the planet. Now those two things are related, all right,

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Speaker 2: So not building enough home least densely, so we've got

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Speaker 2: less density in fact as it was a bizar eight

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty ninth break. Yeah, we're not ranking high there,

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Speaker 2: all right, we should.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of good.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, yes, yeah, yes, and no, it just means

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Speaker 2: we've spread out right a lot. Now, Sydney, that's fine,

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Speaker 2: but where you start to run into problems. You've got

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Speaker 2: a National park at the north and at the south

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Speaker 2: and at the west and then in the northeast. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: northwest you've got one of the largest un mitigated floodplains

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Speaker 2: in the country, so yeah, and in the Southwest you've

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Speaker 2: got some challenges of fire, bushfire and some flood affectation

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Speaker 2: as well. So it's only so much Sydney can physically grow.

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Speaker 2: So that's why we have to increase the amount of

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Speaker 2: density we do. And it's also changing the way that

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Speaker 2: reflects how people like, a changing preference and the way

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Speaker 2: people live. An interesting stat that the government architect gave

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Speaker 2: me in a very early briefing. She said to me,

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Speaker 2: did I know that we've got less diversity in our

435
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 2: housing types today than what we did in the early

436
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: nineteen hundred?

437
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

438
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: We either have really tall buildings or single dwellings and

439
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: not much in between. So the terraces and the townhouses

440
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: and the dual occupancies that have been around you see

441
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: them around the place. A lot of those in various

442
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: parts of Sydney were effectively banned because of rules in

443
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: the planning system. It was bizarre. So in state planning, yeah,

444
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,239
Speaker 2: local government, but in local government these often were So

445
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 2: it was a bizarre situation where you know, the terraces

446
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 2: of Surrey Hills and those sort of areas that have

447
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: been subject a huge protest in the past to protect

448
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 2: them and keep them. You couldn't build that type of

449
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: home in most of Sydney anymore. Not only could you

450
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: not build it, you weren't even able to put in

451
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: a planning proposal for it. Why not just the rules

452
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: said no, we're not we're not allowing this housing type anymore,

453
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: which is just crazy. Right. Similarly, there'd be blocks that

454
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: were zoned to take a medium density, so a small

455
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: residential apartment four to six stories, and then they'd say, oh,

456
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: you can do a small residential apartment there, but your

457
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: limits nine meters in height, so of course that's only

458
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: two stories, so it just doesn't work right. So these

459
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: are the crazy things we had to unpick and start

460
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: to unpick, which is which is what we've been doing

461
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 2: over the last couple of years. And then there's some

462
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 2: other reforms that we've introduced to I've introduced last in

463
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 2: the last sitting week to the Parliament.

464
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: So maybe you can explain a few things to me,

465
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: like so in terms of what you can build somewhere exactly,

466
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: maybe you get explaned how state government rules or planning

467
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: rules are overlay for local planning rules.

468
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: So basically the state government system, the Environmental Planning and

469
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: Assessment Act, been around since nineteen seventy nine, changed a

470
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: lot over that period, but that's when it was first

471
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 2: put in place. That has set out some rules, that's

472
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: the enabling piece of legislation, and then councils set up

473
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 2: their own strategic planning for their particular council area and

474
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: that's we work out what the rules are in a

475
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: particular area. And what's happened is over time, whether as

476
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: a result of community activism, political advantage, that someone perceived

477
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: that some of those things have been really tightened in

478
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 2: terms of what you can build in much of not

479
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: only Sydney but New South Wales. In order to make

480
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: sure that we do have a good mix of housing

481
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: types for people, we've got to relax some of those things.

482
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: That's what we've been progressingly doing over the last couple

483
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 2: of years. There was a thing called the missing middle right,

484
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: which basically says that there's a middle in between really

485
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: really high and single dwelling in density. Yeah, in density right,

486
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: so this is your townhouses, your terraces, your dual lock

487
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: have been sees those sort of things, and a lot

488
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 2: of that you couldn't build, right, So we've had to

489
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: refer to all yes, because you weren't. You weren't the

490
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: planning rules wouldn't allow you to submit applications for those

491
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: sort of homes in a lot of areas. So we've

492
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: reduced that, removed that restriction in one hundred and seventy

493
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: one locations across and between the Hunter and the Yellow

494
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: Warra so far saying castle to Mountain to Wollongong yep

495
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: and saying that you can build these sort of things

496
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: in these areas that are close to either transport or

497
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: town centers and the like.

498
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: So that's in one hundred and seventy Is that at

499
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: like one hundred and seventy railway stations.

500
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, railway stations or town centers or so for instance

501
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: that it might be coralmel In my own areas one

502
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: there's both a railway center and a town center. So

503
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 2: you can, you know, you can change the types of

504
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 2: dwellings you can put in there to allow additional density,

505
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: get people it back in to those areas and allow

506
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: people to get into a home.

507
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: Is this the rule that I read about that said

508
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: in order to get to get that allowance. It was

509
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: sort of limited to eight hundred meters from a railway station.

510
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: So this one is within the eight hundred meters.

511
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: So if someone's got to a house for eight hundred

512
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: meters within a railway station, if it's one of those

513
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: ones that you've put under, I guess this comes under

514
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: some relations. Yeah, low and mid rise, and then one

515
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: of those people of two people get together, like in

516
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: next door, maybe you can maybe put in an application

517
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: to pull it down and build correct du like or

518
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: three stories or something exactly exactly, and suddenly a small

519
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: house on a large block for one family could become

520
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: homes for multiple families. When you do that, and when

521
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: you guys have to push that through parliament, I guess

522
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: you have to get through them both.

523
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: Or this one was largely regular tree so that change.

524
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 2: We didn't have to run the gauntlet of Macquarie Street

525
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: on this one, but some other stuff that's doing that.

526
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: But yeah, you just change regulations, which sounds simple, but

527
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 2: it's got a you know, it's not often not always welcome.

528
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: What are the political considerations though when you do that?

529
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Like so I saw I remember when the premiere announced

530
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: it got a lot of pushback in the media like

531
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: a big time who wore the people opposed to it?

532
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: Why would they be posed?

533
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, bizarrely enough, they're often longer term residents of a

534
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: particular area who don't want to see their streets and

535
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: suburbs change.

536
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: They don't want to change.

537
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: No, they don't want to change. Change is hard. Changes

538
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: can be confronting. The change shouldn't be scary, but you

539
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: know you'll get various pushbacks. And this because often it's

540
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 2: those who are already in an area have a loud

541
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: voice as opposed to those who may want to live

542
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: in an area in the future, whose voices often aren't

543
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: found in this sort of in these sort of debates,

544
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: in these public discussions. So because you know, if someone's

545
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: living in a rental property at the moment, they don't

546
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: know where they might end up in the future. They

547
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: don't know what the community is that they might want

548
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: to end up in, so their voices sometimes not heard.

549
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: So I have to be part of that voice. It

550
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: wasn't so much a political consideration, it was more a

551
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: capacity consideration. So it was looking at where can you

552
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: get enough you know, where is there a full line

553
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: supermarket nearby that you can get all your groceries that

554
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: you need to live. Is there public transport available, whether

555
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: it be train, metro, light rail or bus. Is there

556
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: water and sewer capacity in that particular area, Because if

557
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: there's water and sewer capacity, it means that Sydney Water

558
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: or Hunter Water in the Hunter doesn't have to make

559
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: big investments in order to facilitate growth there, which means

560
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: that overall it's cheaper societally new infrastructure. Yeah, that's right.

561
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: So if you don't have to go investing in that.

562
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: The Productivity Commissioner worked out between a site in a

563
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: green field area and an infield area the difference could

564
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 2: be as much as seventy five thousand dollars dwelling.

565
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: Wow.

566
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: Right, So it's a huge difference and where it's also

567
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: where people want to live. You know, people do want

568
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: to live differently. Now we're not saying you do only infield.

569
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: There's still some green field activity going on because people

570
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: do want to live in that. But what we're saying

571
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: is we've got to rebalance things in Sydney, particularly around

572
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: where there's been the big transport investments, the big investments

573
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 2: in metros. You know, you shouldn't nowhere in the world

574
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: would you walk out of a multi billion dollar metro

575
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: transport system and look across the road and there's a

576
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: couple of Californian single story bungalows with a pool in

577
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,719
Speaker 2: the backyard. It just doesn't happen, right, And that's the

578
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: growth of Sydney as a global city. That's the changing

579
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: expectation of people who now want to live there. I'm

580
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: an apartment dweller, right, so I live in an apartment in

581
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: central Wollongong. Love it mode a lawn in nearly three

582
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: years a godsend. But it's the great advantage is that

583
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: I can just literally close the door and then go

584
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: and do what I need to do. I'm surrounded by

585
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 2: plenty of parks, you know, We've got great beaches nearby,

586
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: so there's plenty of public spaces that peoples. Yeah, that's

587
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 2: right exactly, you know, as you should. And in fact,

588
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: some of the other planning reforms that we've just announced

589
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: on the weekend was about encouraging more of that and

590
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: being able to do more outdoor dining me able to

591
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: do so. There was a weird some weird rules around

592
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: outdoor dining in that you could have outdoor dining in

593
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: any area. This was across New South Wales. But if

594
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: your development approval said you could only have one hundred

595
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: people a one hundred patrons in your restaurant or your

596
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: bar or whatever it may be, then no matter even

597
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: if you had space for one hundred and twenty with

598
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: your outdoor dining, you couldn't expand it. So we've removed

599
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: that restriction so that you can have a reasonable increase

600
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: in the number of patrons you can have. We've also

601
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: made it easier for cultural events in public parks to

602
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: set up, so you don't need to go through a

603
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: full DA process to get that going. And for weirdly

604
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: enough to have cafes and bookshops and other non licensed

605
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: venues open during special events right so they didn't have

606
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: extended the capacity to have extended trading hours during special events.

607
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: You could do it for a license venue. It was

608
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: very easy or relatively easy to do through the liquor

609
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: and gaming laws. But if you are at the cafe

610
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: next door to a small bar that could open extend

611
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: trading longer, you'd have to close. So again that's a

612
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: bit crazy.

613
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: And who would be policing that? Is that a council

614
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: thing to they.

615
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: Play yeah, so this would need a resolution of council

616
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: to say, hey, there's this special event going on. It

617
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: might be a country fair, it might be something active

618
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,959
Speaker 2: in a town center. The Woollongong's hosting the World Triathlon

619
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: Championships in a couple of weeks time, so that might

620
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: be classed as a special event, and say hey, we

621
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't have shops closed if you want to open, if

622
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: you want ex and your trading hours, whether you're a

623
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: bookshop or a bar. We should be able to do

624
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: something where the without having ad without having to do

625
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: a DA, without having a modification to your development consent,

626
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, to deal without having to go through all

627
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: of that red tape.

628
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: So I mean, obviously one of the issues, not obviously,

629
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: but like demand on housing has a large relationship with

630
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: population growth, and the federala makes the decisions about population growth,

631
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: you guys, don't. I presume there's some consultation, but you know,

632
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: they're probably tell you what they're deciding to do. And

633
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: of course population tends to tends to go wherever the

634
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: jobs are, and the bigger economic centers like Sydney will

635
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: detract a lot of the population growth. And i'd imagine

636
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: you guys have in New South Wales coming here have

637
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: probably seen a lot of population growth over the last

638
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: four or five years in New South Wales, probably far

639
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: outstripping your what you had planned for.

640
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we we have a periodic updates of our

641
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: own population forecasts, so they're done on a five yearly basis,

642
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: which becomes what's known as a common planning assumption.

643
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: So that's backwards looking or forfore's looking right.

644
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: So and the really fancy term for saying, this is

645
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: what we think is going to be coming down the pipeline,

646
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: and this is where we think it's going to go.

647
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: So we look at trends of where people are moving

648
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: and the like, so that that way, that's for instance,

649
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: school infrastructure can look ahead and say, okay, we know

650
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: that there's expected this sort of population growth in an area.

651
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: They've got some very good and understanding of what that

652
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: means in terms of the mix of housing and how

653
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: many kids are likely to be in a particular area

654
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: as a result, and they say, right, this is where

655
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: we need to either expand an existing school at a

656
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: new school. Similarly, health does the same, transport does the same,

657
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: all based off those common assumptions which are all fed

658
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: in from both expectations of natural population growth as well

659
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: as migration.

660
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: And do you think, how do you think if we

661
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: look back in the last since COVID, well since post COVID,

662
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: when we've got a big influx of new immigrants becoming

663
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: to Australia, live populosh growth accelerated. Do you think if

664
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: you give yourselves a market at ten, you've done well

665
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: in terms of what you were planning back then? Did

666
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: you get caught by surprise?

667
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 2: And look, I think COVID caught everyone by surprise, both

668
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: in terms of the number of people who left Australia

669
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: as a result, because there was a lot of people

670
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: who went home, a lot of international students and like

671
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 2: a lot of people who obviously were worried about their

672
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: family and any relatives they might have overseas, they went home.

673
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: A lot of the influx post COVID has been a

674
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: lot of that returning. Now there has been some additional

675
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: stuff because we generally do need We've got some labor

676
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: market challenges that we need to deal with, so our

677
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: construction workforce needs skilled migrants. We need it in the

678
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: care economy and the like, and the return of international

679
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: students has helped not only with the hospitality sector but

680
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: also with our biggest services export in New South Wales.

681
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: You know, international education is our biggest export. Now people

682
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 2: don't think or hang on, how is people coming here

683
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: to learn and export is because that's that's the way

684
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 2: trade we're selling to overseas.

685
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: That's us in Federal Earth. Nationally it's our second largest.

686
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's huge, it's huge, and

687
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: it's something that's great because everyone who comes and has

688
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 2: a good experience with the education sector and living in

689
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: Australia go back as ambassadors to say Australia's fantastic, Sydney's fantastic,

690
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: Woollongong and Newcastle are fantastic. And that's that's how we

691
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: increase global trade through those personal personal relationships as well

692
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: through the d time.

693
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: What are some of the big big things that you

694
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: guys and your minister ministerial portfolio working on at the moment, Like,

695
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, what's something that's really taking a lot of

696
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: your time. Yeah, fort's maybe just look at housing and

697
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: public spaces.

698
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: So in the last sitting week of Parliaments a week

699
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: or so ago, I introduced landmark legislation to reform the

700
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: planning system in New South Wales to make it easier

701
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: to change the system, to change the system. So so

702
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: planners had become slaves to process, right.

703
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: And that's we're now we're talking about governments planners.

704
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: No, this is this is planners, generally plans. It could

705
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: be council planners, could be government state government planners become

706
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: slaves to process because well over a period of time. Okay,

707
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: I bought a section from the Act just to because

708
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 2: I thought this might be an illustrated point. So if

709
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: someone has to consider a development application, these are the

710
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 2: things that they need to look at the in considering

711
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: the matter's relevance to the development subject. Development application, the

712
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: provision of any environmental planning instrument. Now there's there's thousands

713
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: of potential regulations in there, and any proposed instrument that

714
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 2: is or has been the subject of public consultation right,

715
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: and any development control plan at a local level, and

716
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: any planning agreement that has been entered into or draft

717
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: planning agreement that a developer has offered under Section seven

718
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: point four of the Act. That's one part. And the

719
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: regulations that apply to the land on which the development

720
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 2: application relates. Then there's part B that says the likely

721
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: impacts of that development, including environmental impacts on both the

722
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 2: natural and build environments, and the social and economic impacts

723
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: in the locality. Then you go to C the suitability

724
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: of the site for development. Then you go to D

725
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: any submissions made in accordance with this act or regulation.

726
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: Then finally eve the public interest.

727
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: And what does that mean? Interest? That mean anything?

728
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 2: Right, it does, and that's the challenge, right, So planners

729
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: have been subject to looking at everything in that light. Now,

730
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: ninety percent of developed applications in New South Wales for

731
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 2: a million dollars or less medium house price one point

732
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,319
Speaker 2: five to two million, right, so much less than the

733
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: price of a typical home or the medium price of

734
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: a home. But what that's meant is that there's a

735
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: risk aversion in the way that planners have to go

736
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: about things because any of those if they don't do

737
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: that completely, could be subject to legal challenge. So there's

738
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 2: the reason why, the reason why slowed up getting stuck.

739
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: It's funny where you're sitting right now.

740
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: This building on this building and as a hotel was

741
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: sort of like a backpacker's place upstairs, which one of

742
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: my kids in a family runner, but we put a

743
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: DA in and I'll never do it again. It was

744
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: the most punishing post. It costs me a fortune. Then

745
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: it's consultants, you know, and I won't say which council

746
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: in the council kept saying, well, probably because of is

747
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: you have to give a consultant on that, and then

748
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: then you have to get a consultant something else. The

749
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: architects didn't cost that much, basically sixty rand or something,

750
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: but all the consultants there that costs another two hundred.

751
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the stuff that we're trying to So

752
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 2: what did you just introduce? So we introduced a reintroduce

753
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: what's known as proportionality as an object of the Planning Act.

754
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 2: Now that's a fancy way of saying, if something's really

755
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: really big and have a significant impact, stories even like

756
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: a mind like a resources proposal, if it's really big

757
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: likely to have significant impacts, that gets a really thorough

758
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: full assessment. Right, everyone gets input. If, however, it's a

759
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: car port, right, it shouldn't need to get the same

760
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 2: level of assessment as that same mind a risk risk

761
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: reintroducing a risk oriented system it.

762
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: Sounds more practical. So what you're just basic saying is

763
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: that the council people who might be looking at it,

764
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: if it's a car port, you don't need to give

765
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: it the same amount of attention and core for all

766
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: the consultants. That's the amount of time that gets wasted

767
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: and money gets spent, by the way, because what ends

768
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: up happening is because I'll never do it again, and

769
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: I could turn this in a residential building, but like

770
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: it's just such a pain in the net. We didn't

771
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: get the approval as it turned out anyway, So after all,

772
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: I said, of a sudden, just let's keep running a hotel.

773
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: Leave it the way. The aim is to try and

774
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: make the system once again outcome focused rather than process focus, right,

775
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 2: And that seems, you know, a simple expression of the desire,

776
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of complexity to unwind in that,

777
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: and some cultural change as well in terms of attitude

778
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: andal change, which we can do, and I think there's

779
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: a there's a general push from society for us to

780
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: do that, and I hope that we're able to get

781
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: that piece of legislation through because of course we're in

782
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: minority government in both the Lower House and the Upper House.

783
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: So mid Lie on the Greens.

784
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: Look, I'll rely on I'm hoping because we've been working

785
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: with the opposition on this, right so, and I'm I'm

786
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: hoping that we can do this at a buypar I'm

787
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 2: hoping multipartisan because the challenge now has become so acute

788
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: when it comes to housing, when it comes to getting

789
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: through job creating developments, that we need to do something different.

790
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: We can't continue to do the same thing and expect

791
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: a miraculously different outcome. It just won't happen unless we

792
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: do some changes. So I'm hoping that the opposition have

793
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: been working with is discussing this for some time. I

794
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: hope that they come on board and support these changes.

795
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a bunch of other changes in there

796
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: as well. There's a thing called we're proposing called the

797
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 2: Development Coordination Authority. Now, if you put in a DA

798
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: at the moment and you have to get an assessment

799
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: by a state government agency, you can go to one

800
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: of twenty two different parts of this stuff. Southwest, kid,

801
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: You're not twenty twenty two parts, right, Not everything goes

802
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: to that, but you can you can face up to

803
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: twenty two different.

804
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: Agents twenty two parts of the comment, right, so.

805
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,479
Speaker 2: We want a single front door, right, So bring these

806
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: people together to work together and getting that because what's

807
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: happened in the past is that people will put to

808
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 2: completely conflicting conditions on a development approve. One agency will

809
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 2: say don't touch a leaf on a tree on that block.

810
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: The other agency you'll say, clear fell the lot. Now,

811
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: if you've got that approval, how on earth are you

812
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: supposed to sort that out? Yeah? Right, so we need

813
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: to get our own house in order in order to

814
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: tidy that up. So a single front door to the

815
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: state government, we work out and come up with a

816
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: single response, which could be yes, yes, with conditions or no,

817
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: depending on the circumstances. But it allows people to get

818
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 2: on with it with a lot more common sense.

819
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: So they're bigger developments because if there's a smaller development,

820
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: it's got to get.

821
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: Or it can be somewhere where it's in a bushfire

822
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: prone area. Right, So it's our council can has the

823
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 2: same challenge. So you'll submit something to a council, council

824
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: may need to come to one of those agencies within

825
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: state government to get that answer. We want to that

826
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 2: process easier for people.

827
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: And when you're conceiving these ideas, do you. I'm always

828
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: curious about I'm actually super curious about how Daniel Mooky

829
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: might get involved, how Chris Men's might get involved. Is

830
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 1: it just left to Paul Scully in your team.

831
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: You're yes on some of the detail. But look, the

832
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: Premier and I catch up weekly, and Daniel and I

833
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: catch up on a regular basis. All of my colleagues,

834
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: you know, we contact each other when we've got a

835
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 2: problem in our local areas to try and sort out.

836
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: So it's informed by all of that, informed by conversations

837
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: with industry, informed by conversations with my own department, informed

838
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: by conversations with the group that represents the planners, the

839
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: group that represents the architects, So all of these things

840
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 2: coming into it, as well as as bit you pick

841
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: up along the way and you look at other jurisdictions

842
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: to see what they might have done. The Development Coordination

843
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: Authority is modeled on something that Queensland does. We're going further,

844
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: but but that was the sort of looked at that

845
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: and I thought that makes sense. How could we apply

846
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 2: it in New South Wales.

847
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 1: Because you mentioned earlier the Queensland seems to have a greater.

848
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: That's called product productivity in terms of housing at the

849
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: moment or dwellings. Would that have something to do with

850
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: the fact that Brisbane City Council controls such a large

851
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 1: I look at it, could less complex than less complex

852
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: than that?

853
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that could be one element to it. It's

854
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: there in it. I look there. They've been able to

855
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: get things through their system a lot more quickly. You know,

856
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: our Planning Acts fifty years old. It's shown a bit

857
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 2: of wear and tear, but it's also overlaid with a

858
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: whole heap of court decisions and regulations and.

859
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 1: The like that have an amendment after Men's I described

860
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: it as a bit like cholesterol, you know, so these things,

861
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, individually I might eat a couple l meals

862
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 1: that are a bit borderline.

863
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 2: In terms of their relatively their health Star rating, for instance,

864
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 2: and individually not a bad decision. Collectively, though over time

865
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 2: at blocks it comes up the arteries and the same

866
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: sort of thing has happened in New South Wales over

867
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: fifty years, that sort of stuff the Planning Act. There's

868
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 2: been around one hundred and twenty different attempts through the

869
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: New South Wales Parliament over that time. To change the

870
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 2: act right, some with success, some without, and so it

871
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: all adds up over time, and every now and again

872
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: you have to reset that and that's what we're trying

873
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 2: to do at the moment.

874
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: So you're how do you feel like, how do you

875
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: feel that you're going to be able to do what

876
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: your predecessors haven't been able to do in terms of

877
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: this fifty year old Bruce's Acts, which has been amended

878
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: so many times it doesn't look like an accent anymore.

879
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the challenge. Look, I think I think

880
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: there's a willingness in the government to absolutely get on

881
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 2: with this. We've made a priority because we recognize that

882
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: we can't keep going on doing the same thing and

883
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: expecting a different result. And part of it is just

884
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: a general desire. I mean, I don't want to answer

885
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: to my nieces and nephews and say, well, you were

886
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 2: in a position where you had an opportunity for me

887
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: to go to get a house and you you're stuffed

888
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: it up. That's pretty powerful motivator in and of it,

889
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: because why why is it that I've got the shot

890
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: at it? And and not But look, we're also doing

891
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: some non legislative things, something that might interest you in

892
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: your your thinkers, We've got this pre sale finance guarantee.

893
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: I saw that. It's amazing. Did you offer to developers?

894
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's image.

895
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: You can explain it, yecause I just think and I

896
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: did say something recently about it. I thought, I think

897
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: that's one of the I'm not going to explain what is.

898
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: I get you explain it is. But I have said

899
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: publicly that this is one of the most innovative thing.

900
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: Won't put up on your Instagram page, I'm sure who's

901
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: page put up, but one of the most innovative government

902
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: and creative government financing enhancements that I've ever seen anywhere

903
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: in the world.

904
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's explain. That's pretty cool. The economist in me

905
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 2: loves this one. But so, what what happens is a

906
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 2: developer goes out, gets an approval. You know, they might

907
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: have one hundred units that've they've got approval for, and

908
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: the commercial lenders and say, okay, off the plan. You've

909
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: got to sell eighty percent of them before the banks

910
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: off Off the back of that, You've got to sell

911
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: eighty percent pre cell before we give you the finance

912
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 2: to start construction. Correct, right, So someone will go out

913
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 2: to their marketing campaign. Over the first three months they

914
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 2: might sell fifty percent. Great, but then it really starts

915
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: to slow up. And that's fine. People were making a

916
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: big investment they wanted to send to want to see

917
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: it and the like. I understand that, but what it

918
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 2: means is delay. So it can mean years getting that.

919
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: Those developers cannot lay one brick.

920
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: They can do it until they get that's right. So

921
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: what we're doing is using the government's balance sheet as

922
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: a bridge to that commercial finance. So if you get

923
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: to fifty percent of your pre sales you can come

924
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 2: and ask the government to get you have to get

925
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 2: fifty percent, yep, yep. So you get to fifty percent,

926
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: you can come and apply to the government to go

927
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 2: as guaranteur effectively, effectively the same as you might do

928
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 2: for your kids for their mortgage.

929
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: So they have Insuran rental guarantee.

930
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: That's right exactly. This is the new South Wales government guarantee.

931
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: And we're saying, right, we're going to commit to buying

932
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: that difference to get in say that last thirty percent,

933
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: for instance, up to fifty million dollars worth of properties

934
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: to get you over the line to get your commercial

935
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 2: finance to get you started. You can keep selling those

936
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 2: properties that we've guaranteed while you're building, and then if

937
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 2: you sell them, the guarantee falls away and we can

938
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: use it on another place. If, however, we get to

939
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: the end you've built them all and you say hang on,

940
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to call on the guarantee, the New South

941
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 2: Wales government will buy those at a discount and then

942
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 2: we can use them either for social housing, affordable housing,

943
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: market rental, or we can sell ourselves and get the

944
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 2: money back. We've put a commitment of up to a

945
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: billion dollars behind that. It's it's definitely nationally leading, if

946
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 2: not world leading in terms of the size of it.

947
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: I think world And we're hopeful that this will actually

948
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 2: mean construction could get started on a whole lot more

949
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: projects than what it could what it would have done,

950
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: and the time it would have taken to eke out

951
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: the pre sales to get to commercial finance.

952
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: And I think consumers audiences don't realize the reason a

953
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: lot of times developers don't proceed is because that developers

954
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: don't have the money they usually put in.

955
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: We've got around fifteen thousand dwellings at any given time

956
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: or at the moment, So it's come down a bit,

957
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: but fifteen thousand dwellings at the moment that are approved

958
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 2: but not commenced, and we believe this will make a

959
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: big difference. We've already had we opened up for expressions

960
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: of interest last week about a week ago. We've already

961
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 2: had twenty two expressions of interest so far, and we're

962
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 2: hoping to be able to write the first provide the

963
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: first guarantees by the end of the year.

964
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: And just so I understand a bit more, is the

965
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 1: guarantee delivered to the bank, or that a guarantee goes

966
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: to the development to.

967
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 2: The bank, to the bank. So this is the bridge

968
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 2: to commercial fight. So we're not providing any finance at all.

969
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: All we're providing is essentially a guarantee, a bit of

970
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: essentially a bit of paper to say that we are

971
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:21,280
Speaker 2: willing to guarantee these these particular dwellings. But it's bridge

972
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 2: to commercial file. So you've got to stack up. You've

973
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: got to be able to stack up and get your

974
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 2: commercial is to be right, yeah, and you've got to

975
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: get underway quick smart right. So we want we want

976
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: to be able to churn this guarantee as much as possible.

977
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 2: We can only churn that by getting people started on construction.

978
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the things is important

979
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: here and this is I actually I'm I'm a big fan.

980
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: I'm a Daniel Mookie fan of how he's maintained our

981
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: balance sheet. Because you know, our rating, our global rating

982
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: of New South Wales, which is triple A, is really important.

983
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: And most people don't realize therefore that the budgets are

984
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: really important because rating agencies done like stupid budgets, and

985
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: because if the if you, if you continually dish that

986
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: up to rating agencies, eventually they will re rate you

987
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: and your your rating will go down from tripa A,

988
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 1: which is what we enjoy here in New South Wales,

989
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: to some other number. And as soon as they start

990
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: doing that, your position, your your one billion dollars that

991
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: you're going to put out there into the marketplace is

992
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: available for developers that starts to get it becomes a

993
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 1: liability and that becomes a bit of a drama for you.

994
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, we couldn't do this without the strength of our

995
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 2: balance triple A rating. Yeah, that's right, and if we

996
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: as You're right, you absolutely point out if we drop

997
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: that rating, our interest bill goes up totally right, and

998
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: when our interest bill goes up, even though we've done

999
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: a lot of work to get our debt position under control,

1000
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: we inherited the highest level of debt of one incoming

1001
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: New South that any New South Wales government has handed

1002
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: to another government. We're getting that under control. But if

1003
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: we don't, then our interest bill, where we could be

1004
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 2: paying higher wages to people, or we could be doing

1005
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 2: more things in the public spaces portfolio, we could be

1006
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: doing a whole range of other things. We can't do

1007
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: that because instead we're paying interest on debt.

1008
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,959
Speaker 1: And this is the problem in America at the moment.

1009
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: But people don't realize the debt burden or the interest

1010
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: rate payment burden which comes out of taxes you absolutely

1011
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: you have to take from people here in your South Wales,

1012
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: and the same thing if applies at a federal level.

1013
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: But the interest rate burden increases quite significantly with a

1014
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: rerating from triple A to some other huge different because

1015
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: triple A is the best rating to get in the world,

1016
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: like even the United States doesn't have a triple A rating.

1017
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm not sure Victoria has been rerated.

1018
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: I think yeah, I'm not sure what they are at

1019
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 2: the moment.

1020
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: Australia Triple A. And I don't think most people understand

1021
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: the importance of the interaction between what you're doing, the

1022
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: billion dollar guarantee to developers and what Moogie does the

1023
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 1: Treasury making sure that he puts out budgets that are responsible,

1024
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, relative to how agencies external rating agencies see

1025
00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: how balance it look like. The relationship is quite ynamic,

1026
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 1: really important. It is.

1027
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:07,240
Speaker 2: It's why we catch up on a regular basis, bloody critical.

1028
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 2: But to put it in context, when we came when

1029
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 2: we were first elected in March twenty twenty three, the

1030
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: interest we're paying on the debt at that time, which

1031
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: we've been able to reduce was the equivalent of what

1032
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 2: we spend annually on the police and TAFE combined. Wow. Right,

1033
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: that was just going in interest moments that had to

1034
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 2: get be brought under control. You just can't run a government.

1035
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 2: You can't run a health system, you can't run a

1036
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 2: police force, a fire as if fire education, So you

1037
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: can't run that when you're having to shovel more money

1038
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 2: out the door in paying off interest on debt.

1039
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: Esspayly someone a buying a house that can't afford to own,

1040
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: and they've got a massive mortgage on it, and in

1041
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: every month they're paying out more in their mortgage than

1042
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: they've been able to pay it for their kids school

1043
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 1: fees and everything else. And something's going to suffer.

1044
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: That's right. You can only put it on the credit

1045
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: card for so long before all the chickens come home

1046
00:54:59,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: to roost.

1047
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: That's very good. I mean, I'm actually I really do

1048
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: like that policy. And what you're trying to do is,

1049
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: by the way, other states probably should start trying to

1050
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: copy this.

1051
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: We've had inquiries. Yeah, we've had inquiries I think every

1052
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 2: treasury and every planning department in every other state of

1053
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: contact at our chives. Have we set this up?

1054
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you're saying you've had twenty two submissions so far,

1055
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: but when do you think you roll out your first one?

1056
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: I hope to do that before the end of the year.

1057
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: Okay. And as you say, it's fifteen thousand pre approved

1058
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: apartment buildings whatever it is dwellings available to be done,

1059
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: which needs probably of those most of those we finance

1060
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: a lot of very feel actually they find itself with

1061
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: the balance their own balancehit. Unless it's Harry triggerab Off.

1062
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: That's right, there's a few who have they have a

1063
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 2: capacity over years and years of business to be able

1064
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: to build up that most people don't. And we're aiming

1065
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: at the mid tier developers, the guys who are building

1066
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 2: no more than two million dollar properties. Yeah, so you're

1067
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: not trying to trying to do the luxury apartments or

1068
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 2: anything like that. We're trying to get some volume out

1069
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 2: and support some volume coming out so that more people

1070
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,120
Speaker 2: have got a chance to get to a million. Unless

1071
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, you know, just too minute.

1072
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: Well, Minister Scully, Minister for New South Wales, Minister for

1073
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 1: Planning and Public Spaces, I really appreciate you coming in

1074
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: today and explaining to us, probably not all the details

1075
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 1: going on your portfolio, because your portfolio is quite complex

1076
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: and covers a lot of stuff and we probably don't

1077
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: have enough time to talk about everything you do. But

1078
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time and I actually think some

1079
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: of these issues that you've spoke about today, for me,

1080
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: especially this government guarantee, state government guarantee for developers relative

1081
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: to their pre sales obligations in order for them to

1082
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: get the deal off the table and start to be built,

1083
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: is one of the most innovative that I've ever seen

1084
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: from a government. In fact, I'd say pretty ballsy.

1085
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just innovative. Well, the history has always

1086
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 2: been subsidy, and this is no subsidy. This is just

1087
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: using the charge for that we do. We do charge it.

1088
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,320
Speaker 2: There's a credit for a line, but that recovers the cost.

1089
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: Of administering it, just like during the just just laying

1090
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: the during the GFC, the federal government put up a

1091
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: deposit guarantee four banks. They did, but they didn't charge them.

1092
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: Now they do.

1093
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: They do charge them, but then we've set it up

1094
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 2: so so that recovers the cost of administering That's exactly right.

1095
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: So there are costs, we've got to recover those. But

1096
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: you know, I think this is a really this is

1097
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: something I've been wanting to introduce for it for a

1098
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 2: long time. So I'm glad we were able to get

1099
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: it over the line.

1100
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 1: Well done, Thank you, thanks very much, Thanks thanks for

1101
00:57:42,160 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 1: having me on. Appreciate it.