1 00:00:03,450 --> 00:00:06,180 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,570 --> 00:00:10,410 Sean Aylmer: Australia is set to see its biggest ever immigration intake 3 00:00:10,410 --> 00:00:15,120 Sean Aylmer: with 650,000 net new immigrants arriving over the next two years. 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,130 Sean Aylmer: It's remarkable when you consider that just a couple of 5 00:00:17,130 --> 00:00:20,400 Sean Aylmer: years ago when borders were closed, we saw Australia's first 6 00:00:20,489 --> 00:00:25,079 Sean Aylmer: net migration loss since World War II. So what does 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,980 Sean Aylmer: this influx mean for labour shortages, for infrastructure, for housing availability, 8 00:00:28,980 --> 00:00:33,600 Sean Aylmer: property prices, et cetera, et cetera. Simon Kuestenmacher is the co- founder 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,170 Sean Aylmer: of the Demographics Group, our favourite demographer here on Fear 10 00:00:37,170 --> 00:00:38,430 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. Simon, welcome back. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:39,750 Simon Kuestenmacher: It's good to be on. 12 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:43,890 Sean Aylmer: So, what's the likely makeup of this group? 650,000 over 13 00:00:43,890 --> 00:00:47,489 Sean Aylmer: a couple of years net new migrants, is it skilled 14 00:00:47,490 --> 00:00:49,979 Sean Aylmer: migration, students, who? 15 00:00:50,460 --> 00:00:55,260 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, so the big immediate drive of migrants with the 16 00:00:55,290 --> 00:00:59,040 Simon Kuestenmacher: international students because there is so much pent- up demand 17 00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:01,950 Simon Kuestenmacher: in the market here. These are people that could not 18 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:06,330 Simon Kuestenmacher: come to Australia for the better half of two years, 19 00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:10,709 Simon Kuestenmacher: and so they just didn't come. And now they are 20 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:15,570 Simon Kuestenmacher: coming in vast numbers because the universities of course rely 21 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:19,830 Simon Kuestenmacher: on them for an income source. And other than this, 22 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:24,780 Simon Kuestenmacher: we see backpackers drop in as well in relatively decent numbers. 23 00:01:24,780 --> 00:01:28,380 Simon Kuestenmacher: And most importantly, we operate, of course, still a skilled 24 00:01:28,410 --> 00:01:33,150 Simon Kuestenmacher: migration list because any industry that you will have spoken 25 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:36,120 Simon Kuestenmacher: to over the last years will have told you about 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,569 Simon Kuestenmacher: a skilled shortage. And so we're just fighting to fill 27 00:01:39,569 --> 00:01:42,810 Simon Kuestenmacher: those skills shortages across all industries. 28 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:47,160 Sean Aylmer: I've heard you recently talk about the benefits of migration, 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,170 Sean Aylmer: why it's so good for the economy. Just explain that. 30 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:54,360 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, so just economically speaking, it is much cheaper and 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,010 Simon Kuestenmacher: more lucrative to grow a population based on migration rather 32 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,490 Simon Kuestenmacher: than on making more babies. You want to remember that 33 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:06,270 Simon Kuestenmacher: the first, let's call it 22, 23 years before you become 34 00:02:06,270 --> 00:02:09,990 Simon Kuestenmacher: a taxpayer yourself, they're very expensive to bring up. You're being 35 00:02:09,990 --> 00:02:13,980 Simon Kuestenmacher: born kindergarten school, university, medical costs. There's lots of costs 36 00:02:13,980 --> 00:02:19,049 Simon Kuestenmacher: associated. If you just take people from overseas, those costs 37 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:23,460 Simon Kuestenmacher: are carried by another country. It's almost unbelievable that we 38 00:02:23,460 --> 00:02:26,579 Simon Kuestenmacher: get away with such a good economic deal. 39 00:02:27,570 --> 00:02:29,639 Sean Aylmer: I had never thought of it that way. That's so 40 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,930 Sean Aylmer: true. What about the other end of life? So pensioners 41 00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:37,500 Sean Aylmer: and people where we have a social security payments too 42 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:40,709 Sean Aylmer: who haven't been here. Is that part of the economic 43 00:02:40,710 --> 00:02:41,790 Sean Aylmer: calculation or not? 44 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,500 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, obviously the idea is that in Australia we introduced 45 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:50,070 Simon Kuestenmacher: the superannuation scheme in order to make sure that almost 46 00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:52,410 Simon Kuestenmacher: all people, as many people as possible, pay for their 47 00:02:52,410 --> 00:02:54,750 Simon Kuestenmacher: own retirement because we put a gun to your head, 48 00:02:54,750 --> 00:02:56,430 Simon Kuestenmacher: we say you have to put 10% of your money 49 00:02:56,430 --> 00:03:00,300 Simon Kuestenmacher: into this little box. This box is yours, and by 50 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:02,790 Simon Kuestenmacher: the end of your life, you pay for all your 51 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:08,100 Simon Kuestenmacher: costs through your superannuation. That's a rather smart approach. It 52 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:12,150 Simon Kuestenmacher: also will lead to increased political stability because nobody can 53 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:15,870 Simon Kuestenmacher: take your money away from you. Whereas in Germany or 54 00:03:15,870 --> 00:03:20,370 Simon Kuestenmacher: in France where there is just one single bucket, theoretically 55 00:03:20,370 --> 00:03:24,270 Simon Kuestenmacher: any government can change your pension payouts. And so there 56 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,770 Simon Kuestenmacher: is always the opportunity that there is political unrest if 57 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:32,970 Simon Kuestenmacher: somebody suggests this. And in Australia, we are guaranteeing political 58 00:03:32,970 --> 00:03:37,200 Simon Kuestenmacher: stability because there's no need for a crazy party to 59 00:03:37,230 --> 00:03:41,100 Simon Kuestenmacher: promise you a safe pension because your pension actually is 60 00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:43,200 Simon Kuestenmacher: safe through the superannuation scheme. 61 00:03:43,530 --> 00:03:46,440 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's get back to net migrants. A lot 62 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,140 Sean Aylmer: of commentators at the moment are saying one of the 63 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,140 Sean Aylmer: reasons house prices might not fall quite as much is 64 00:03:52,140 --> 00:03:57,870 Sean Aylmer: because migrants are such a huge migrant intake. I get that 65 00:03:57,870 --> 00:04:00,540 Sean Aylmer: in the short term, but does migration and housing have 66 00:04:00,540 --> 00:04:02,760 Sean Aylmer: much of a link in the medium to longer term? 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,960 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, obviously there's a relationship between the number of houses 68 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,910 Simon Kuestenmacher: that are on the market and the number of people 69 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:12,120 Simon Kuestenmacher: that are competing to live in these houses. There's a 70 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,760 Simon Kuestenmacher: clear and obvious link. The real scandal here is that we 71 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:23,850 Simon Kuestenmacher: have a national housing policy, international migration policy that aren't 72 00:04:23,850 --> 00:04:27,479 Simon Kuestenmacher: linked to each other, that is just pure madness and 73 00:04:27,540 --> 00:04:31,800 Simon Kuestenmacher: utterly unnecessary. You could easily fix this. There are plenty of 74 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Simon Kuestenmacher: arguments to say why we should have a large Australia, 75 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:40,050 Simon Kuestenmacher: big Australia policy. We are aging like crazy. The number 76 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:43,440 Simon Kuestenmacher: of people 85 plus is doubling over the next 12 77 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:46,320 Simon Kuestenmacher: years alone. If you are in your 70s right now, 78 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,180 Simon Kuestenmacher: do you think in a decade you'll have a carer? 79 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,690 Simon Kuestenmacher: Think again, the way things are currently going, you will 80 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:55,500 Simon Kuestenmacher: not have enough care workers. The only way we can 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,760 Simon Kuestenmacher: even remotely think of having a decent retirement in 10, 20 82 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,820 Simon Kuestenmacher: years time is when we amp up migration, when we 83 00:05:02,820 --> 00:05:07,500 Simon Kuestenmacher: create care workers through migration. So plenty of arguments for a 84 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,969 Simon Kuestenmacher: large migration approach, but we are building ourselves into trouble 85 00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:14,820 Simon Kuestenmacher: because we're not building enough housing. So it's a supply 86 00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:18,510 Simon Kuestenmacher: side issue as far as I'm concerned. And we in 87 00:05:18,510 --> 00:05:23,010 Simon Kuestenmacher: this country have plenty of unnecessary roadblocks in order to 88 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:26,580 Simon Kuestenmacher: increase more housing. Local government areas have a lot of 89 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:31,440 Simon Kuestenmacher: power to block development, a local government area, a local 90 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,520 Simon Kuestenmacher: council should block every development, whether it's useful or not 91 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,350 Simon Kuestenmacher: because somebody that votes them into power will hate this development. 92 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:43,920 Simon Kuestenmacher: And if the development is really needed, VCAT (Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal), or NCAT (New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal), 93 00:05:44,310 --> 00:05:47,460 Simon Kuestenmacher: or whoever will just push it through anyway. So all 94 00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:50,909 Simon Kuestenmacher: these blocking veto powers should be taken away from local 95 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:54,630 Simon Kuestenmacher: government if we want to continue to grow Australia via 96 00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:57,870 Simon Kuestenmacher: adults rates of 300,000, 400,000 people per year. 97 00:05:58,350 --> 00:06:00,510 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so that suggests that certainly there'll be a shortage 98 00:06:00,510 --> 00:06:03,630 Sean Aylmer: of houses, particularly if the policies aren't linked and presumably 99 00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:06,539 Sean Aylmer: that will do something to property prices. What about away 100 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:10,200 Sean Aylmer: from property though? Infrastructure, are our major cities, is regional 101 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,080 Sean Aylmer: Australia ready for this number of new migrants? 102 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,580 Simon Kuestenmacher: No. Absolutely not. If you line up all the state 103 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:21,660 Simon Kuestenmacher: and federal budgets that are currently in circulation and you 104 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:24,810 Simon Kuestenmacher: just count all the infrastructure projects that people are willing 105 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:27,420 Simon Kuestenmacher: to pay for, you just have to laugh because we 106 00:06:27,420 --> 00:06:31,890 Simon Kuestenmacher: don't have the workforce to build all those things. And 107 00:06:31,890 --> 00:06:34,200 Simon Kuestenmacher: we do have about, let's call it 20 years worth 108 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,820 Simon Kuestenmacher: of infrastructure backlog in this country. We can build so 109 00:06:38,850 --> 00:06:42,930 Simon Kuestenmacher: much stuff without running out of useful things to add 110 00:06:42,930 --> 00:06:45,960 Simon Kuestenmacher: to this country. We do need to build infrastructure, now, 111 00:06:46,170 --> 00:06:49,800 Simon Kuestenmacher: there will be always fights about infrastructure. Infrastructure in Australia 112 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,599 Simon Kuestenmacher: is unnecessarily politicised. You've heard so many stories of this 113 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,659 Simon Kuestenmacher: party says the tunnel is on. That party says the 114 00:06:57,660 --> 00:07:00,300 Simon Kuestenmacher: tunnel is off, and that continues for 20 years. We 115 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,300 Simon Kuestenmacher: don't get stuff done. There's no reason why we couldn't 116 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:07,980 Simon Kuestenmacher: have a body like Infrastructure Australia being handed more power, 117 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,290 Simon Kuestenmacher: a technocratic body that decides which infrastructure projects gets built 118 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:17,670 Simon Kuestenmacher: so you don't politicise them. And the politicians only decide 119 00:07:17,670 --> 00:07:21,240 Simon Kuestenmacher: how much money is being put aside for infrastructure projects. 120 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,200 Simon Kuestenmacher: There's no reason we couldn't do this other than political 121 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:28,500 Simon Kuestenmacher: elites liking the influence, the power. 122 00:07:29,130 --> 00:07:31,140 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Simon. We'll be back in a minute. 123 00:07:36,990 --> 00:07:40,200 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Simon Kuestenmacher, co- founder of 124 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,480 Sean Aylmer: the Demographics Group. Okay, what about labour markets? Surely an 125 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:49,440 Sean Aylmer: influx of migrants is a good thing when your unemployment rates 3. 5%. 126 00:07:51,030 --> 00:07:54,150 Simon Kuestenmacher: Oh, absolutely. It's the only way out. Whatever industry you're 127 00:07:54,150 --> 00:07:58,680 Simon Kuestenmacher: talking to, they are all desperate for workers. And we really, 128 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,530 Simon Kuestenmacher: from the labour perspective, from the idea to drive the 129 00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:05,190 Simon Kuestenmacher: economy up, we do need migrants. There's no way around 130 00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:08,430 Simon Kuestenmacher: this because we don't have the right pipeline for care workers, 131 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:12,630 Simon Kuestenmacher: for medical workers, for engineering, for lots of high skilled jobs. 132 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,810 Simon Kuestenmacher: There's no way we can produce this in- house with 133 00:08:15,810 --> 00:08:20,070 Simon Kuestenmacher: the economy wanting to grow. So we need to look elsewhere. 134 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:24,390 Simon Kuestenmacher: And I know that lots of people have sound arguments 135 00:08:24,390 --> 00:08:28,950 Simon Kuestenmacher: to argue against a large Australia policy, but if you 136 00:08:28,950 --> 00:08:32,070 Simon Kuestenmacher: argue for a small Australia policy, you need to fix 137 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,970 Simon Kuestenmacher: healthcare crisis, you need to ensure that the Australian business model, 138 00:08:36,270 --> 00:08:39,120 Simon Kuestenmacher: the industries in Australia can actually operate, and I've not 139 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,710 Simon Kuestenmacher: seen a plausible path to this. So I do therefore 140 00:08:43,710 --> 00:08:47,309 Simon Kuestenmacher: think we are better off accepting that this is going 141 00:08:47,309 --> 00:08:50,640 Simon Kuestenmacher: to be a large migration approach and then build the 142 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,600 Simon Kuestenmacher: cities and the infrastructure that we need to make life 143 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:59,130 Simon Kuestenmacher: wonderful and beautiful for everyone. So we want to be 144 00:08:59,130 --> 00:09:02,610 Simon Kuestenmacher: the architects of our future rather than the victims of 145 00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:03,360 Simon Kuestenmacher: our own future. 146 00:09:04,050 --> 00:09:06,059 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So let's assume we are heading down a big 147 00:09:06,059 --> 00:09:09,750 Sean Aylmer: Australia path. We talk about what we need. What is 148 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:14,190 Sean Aylmer: something that we could do or government could do now 149 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:17,460 Sean Aylmer: or in the next three months? Is it having infrastructure 150 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:20,939 Sean Aylmer: Australia with more power? Is it about having a better 151 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:25,230 Sean Aylmer: linking housing policy with migration policy? Is it about making 152 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:28,770 Sean Aylmer: sure that the skilled immigrants that come in have the 153 00:09:28,770 --> 00:09:30,210 Sean Aylmer: skills we want? And you're not allowed to say all 154 00:09:30,210 --> 00:09:34,170 Sean Aylmer: of those things, what's the most important thing or things 155 00:09:34,170 --> 00:09:35,370 Sean Aylmer: that we should be doing right now? 156 00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:39,660 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, a quick fix is to really set realistic housing 157 00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:42,840 Simon Kuestenmacher: targets for each and every local government area and say 158 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,720 Simon Kuestenmacher: you'll have to provide that much more housing. This is 159 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:49,199 Simon Kuestenmacher: built into the strategic plans of our capital cities as 160 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,859 Simon Kuestenmacher: well anyways, and say you'll need to accommodate that many 161 00:09:52,860 --> 00:09:56,250 Simon Kuestenmacher: developments, that many new houses in your area. And if 162 00:09:56,250 --> 00:09:59,189 Simon Kuestenmacher: you fail to do so, funding is being withheld from 163 00:09:59,190 --> 00:10:01,650 Simon Kuestenmacher: local government areas. If you fail to do so for 164 00:10:01,650 --> 00:10:05,400 Simon Kuestenmacher: another year, your council gets put under administration. And if 165 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,000 Simon Kuestenmacher: you've ever spoken to public servants that work for a 166 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,150 Simon Kuestenmacher: council that has been put under administration, you will know 167 00:10:12,150 --> 00:10:15,689 Simon Kuestenmacher: that those people love a council that's under administration because 168 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:20,340 Simon Kuestenmacher: they say they've never gotten that much stuff done. So 169 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:23,670 Simon Kuestenmacher: this is really putting on the pressure on at least 170 00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:28,170 Simon Kuestenmacher: the hurdles that we have on the public government end 171 00:10:28,170 --> 00:10:28,709 Simon Kuestenmacher: of things. 172 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,040 Sean Aylmer: One final question, and I can't help but as a 173 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:37,980 Sean Aylmer: Gen Xer myself, is it something that is generational these 174 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,880 Sean Aylmer: challenges? So is it something that baby boomers, Gen X, 175 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:47,250 Sean Aylmer: millennials are kind of better at handling or, probably better 176 00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:49,740 Sean Aylmer: way of putting that, are worse at thinking about than 177 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:51,990 Sean Aylmer: other generations? 178 00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:55,260 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, you can be quite cynical and you say that 179 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:58,410 Simon Kuestenmacher: the concern of what the economy looks like, what the 180 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:01,020 Simon Kuestenmacher: housing market looks like is only an issue for the 181 00:11:01,020 --> 00:11:03,599 Simon Kuestenmacher: young people. If you are Gen X, you're already a 182 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,179 Simon Kuestenmacher: mortgage holder. If you're a baby boomer, you're definitely owning 183 00:11:06,179 --> 00:11:11,189 Simon Kuestenmacher: a house already. So they don't have much need to 184 00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:14,849 Simon Kuestenmacher: think about how much the economy is growing in the 185 00:11:14,850 --> 00:11:19,080 Simon Kuestenmacher: future. That is a young person's thing. And we then 186 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,439 Simon Kuestenmacher: need to go, " Well, how do we want to proactively 187 00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:25,170 Simon Kuestenmacher: reshape our cities?" And that's not an easy thing because 188 00:11:25,470 --> 00:11:28,110 Simon Kuestenmacher: the way that our cities are operating will need to 189 00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:30,900 Simon Kuestenmacher: change if we continue to grow, if we grow our 190 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:34,770 Simon Kuestenmacher: country at four, five million people each decade, we can't 191 00:11:34,770 --> 00:11:38,010 Simon Kuestenmacher: just add those people evenly across all our cities. We will 192 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:41,640 Simon Kuestenmacher: eventually need to think about which of the relatively small 193 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,420 Simon Kuestenmacher: cities will we want to turn into major cities. So 194 00:11:45,420 --> 00:11:49,800 Simon Kuestenmacher: I'm thinking about Geelong's, Newcastle's of this country that will 195 00:11:49,830 --> 00:11:54,000 Simon Kuestenmacher: probably see a major boost if we think about restructuring 196 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:55,319 Simon Kuestenmacher: where people live. 197 00:11:56,309 --> 00:11:59,880 Sean Aylmer: It's a fascinating topic. Simon, thank you for talking to us. 198 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:01,650 Sean Aylmer: It's been about six months, I think, and before we 199 00:12:01,650 --> 00:12:04,199 Sean Aylmer: came on the show, you conceded to me, I asked 200 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,900 Sean Aylmer: why you were in Australia and you said, " I spent 201 00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:09,780 Sean Aylmer: a semester at university 15 years ago and met a girl." 202 00:12:09,809 --> 00:12:12,900 Sean Aylmer: And I think that's one of the loveliest comments you've 203 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:13,710 Sean Aylmer: made to me today. 204 00:12:15,179 --> 00:12:16,710 Simon Kuestenmacher: Well, it's nothing but the truth. 205 00:12:17,010 --> 00:12:19,200 Sean Aylmer: Ah, it's great. Simon, thank you for talking to Fear 206 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:19,680 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 207 00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:21,540 Simon Kuestenmacher: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. 208 00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:27,120 Sean Aylmer: That was Simon Kuestenmacher, co- founder of The Demographics Group. This 209 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,220 Sean Aylmer: is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every 210 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:31,500 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 211 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:34,890 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.