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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I normally prepare the introduction for the guests when they

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Speaker 1: come on I Catch Killers. But I've decided to do

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Speaker 1: something a little bit different today. Today's guest is Peter

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Speaker 1: Linden James, and this is how he's described on a website.

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Speaker 1: After twenty six years as an addict, drug dealer and criminal,

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Speaker 1: Peter turned his life around to create Australia's largest and

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Speaker 1: toughest rehab housing over one hundred and fifty residents no

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Speaker 1: cost to the community. Peter has upended everything we know

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Speaker 1: about addiction and rehab. Now, I figure with an introduction

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Speaker 1: like that, I don't need to add anything because this

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Speaker 1: is going to be an interesting chat and I'm looking

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Speaker 1: forward to speaking to Peter Lindon James on I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Peter Lindon James, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: They're goody, it's good.

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Speaker 1: To be a well, it's good to sit down and

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Speaker 1: have a chat with you. I've had quite a few

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Speaker 1: people drop your name and the work that you're doing

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Speaker 1: at Shalom as Shalem House and quite impressive. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have been pointing me in that direction.

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Speaker 1: And so the work you're doing over there is reaching

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Speaker 1: the east coast of the country because you're over in Perth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good getting around.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're doing something that's making a difference. So you

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Speaker 1: should be proudiest often happy that the reputations traveling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

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Speaker 3: In prepping for this.

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Speaker 1: Chat with you, I've got to say you've certainly had

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Speaker 1: an interesting life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could say that a bit of variety.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a variety incarcerated, addictions, crime, time in prison, all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. And here you are turning your life around.

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Speaker 1: Did you think you would make it this far at

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Speaker 1: the low point in your life? Like what goes through

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Speaker 1: your mind when you're going in and out of jarle

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Speaker 1: you're addicted and your habitual offender and addict.

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Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, mate, telling the truth.

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Speaker 4: I don't actually I don't look ahead. I just I

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Speaker 4: just try now, just get up to be the best

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Speaker 4: me I can be. I mean, and my whole life,

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Speaker 4: I just wanted to be a geek, normal person and

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Speaker 4: just doing normal stuff and I want my life to matter.

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Speaker 4: And unfortunately, because of the way they grow up and

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Speaker 4: what I went through, I grew up on the wrong

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Speaker 4: side of the fence doing stuff that I didn't want

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Speaker 4: to do. But yeah, just sort of the cards that

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Speaker 4: were dealt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So even that those those lower points in your life,

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Speaker 1: you were just still looking I want to get out

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Speaker 1: of this life, but I'll just get through the day

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Speaker 1: and we'll worry about it the next day.

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Speaker 3: Is that the sort of the way you rolled?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, just day by day, just whatever came came. Just

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Speaker 4: accepted who I was, what I did, and like most people,

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Speaker 4: you just accept it and thing's going to be a

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Speaker 4: lot to hit the big wall and then I sort

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Speaker 4: of recalibrate and then just do it again and again.

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Speaker 4: It's like groundhole day, just doing what you don't want

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Speaker 4: to do, and it's sort of just your life follows you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a slave to it. Well, you have been

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Speaker 1: quoted somewhere. I just read this quite out because it's

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy, but it sort of gives an insight. I

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Speaker 1: hated who I was, what I stood for. I hated

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Speaker 1: everything that I'd become, but I didn't know who I was.

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Speaker 1: That's confronting and sad on a lot of different fronts,

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Speaker 1: but that how you felt.

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Speaker 4: That's how I felt from probably the age of eight onwards.

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Speaker 4: Just the whole life just hated me. So what I

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Speaker 4: stood for, what I did, how I smelt people, I

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Speaker 4: hurt my life, I lived family, you name it.

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Speaker 1: You carry a lot, don't you. Well, look you've turned

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Speaker 1: your life around, and there's something and we want to

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Speaker 1: talk about that. And now you're the CEO and you

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Speaker 1: actually established it, the Shalem House and it's been described

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Speaker 1: as Australia's strictest rehabilitation center where you employ a tough

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Speaker 1: love approach that has been seen Shalom become the most

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Speaker 1: successful rehab center in Australia.

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Speaker 3: That's something to be proud of.

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Speaker 2: I am.

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Speaker 4: I love my staff, love my residence. I'm really proud

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Speaker 4: of or the effort to put in and it's taken

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Speaker 4: a lot over the probably the last thirteen fourteen years

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Speaker 4: to establish the culture and now it's not one person

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Speaker 4: carrying it, it's all of us who carry it.

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Speaker 1: It's nice when you set something up that's worthwhile and

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Speaker 1: you create that lineage, isn't it where people are it's

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Speaker 1: not all to you.

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Speaker 3: You've passed on the torch and people are out actually

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Speaker 3: doing it with you.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, right from day tod always, I learn it, I

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Speaker 4: teach it, I delegate it, I let go, and I

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Speaker 4: just I want it to run, not because of me,

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Speaker 4: but in spite of me. So I'll get you by

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Speaker 4: a truck tomorrow. It'll just keep going. It's definitely laid

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Speaker 4: on a good solid foundation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a pretty good insight into running anything or

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Speaker 1: doing anything, is that you create it to the situation

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Speaker 1: where you set it up so it doesn't need you.

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Speaker 3: That's a perfect, perfect thing. We're going to talk.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk in great deal about what you're

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Speaker 1: doing at Shalam House because I think it's fascinating and

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Speaker 1: to give people an insight into why it is so

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Speaker 1: successful and why people are coming there and knocking on

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Speaker 1: the door to get in because of the reputation. But

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Speaker 1: before we do, I want to talk about your upbringing.

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Speaker 1: Get a sense of where you've come from, because I

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Speaker 1: think people are you know, it's one thing to say

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Speaker 1: this is my life, now, look how successful I am,

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Speaker 1: but people have got to understand where you came from

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Speaker 1: because it's your life experiences that have got you to

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Speaker 1: this point. So tell us about your upbringing.

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Speaker 4: Well, ninety percent of the people that we will actually help,

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Speaker 4: the root cause of what they are like they are

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Speaker 4: is actually childhood trauma. Me Lockridge, which is in Perth,

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Speaker 4: is a bit like the Bronx type stuff. I gore

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Speaker 4: up in Lockridge, some second eldest of five kids. I

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Speaker 4: got an older sister, two younger brothers, and the younger

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Speaker 4: sister the Lockridge scanned. The way where everything started going

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Speaker 4: wrong was when I was probably six or seven. My

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Speaker 4: dad actually went out with my mum and they had

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Speaker 4: a baby sitter stay over the night and looked after

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Speaker 4: us five kids, and I come back, and they come back,

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Speaker 4: and I wake up in the morning.

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Speaker 2: All I could hear was screaming and yell.

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Speaker 4: And there's a five year old, six year old I

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Speaker 4: can actually remember it. And we're on a two story place.

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Speaker 4: I walked out in the bedroom and I've seen Dad

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Speaker 4: going down the stairs and Mum just through this pot

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Speaker 4: and like a cooking pot at the back of Dad's head.

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Speaker 2: And for me, that was.

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Speaker 4: Where all life started going skew with. So I'm a

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Speaker 4: six year old kid. Dad's moved out of home, moved

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Speaker 4: into moto and my mom she started drinking lots, and

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Speaker 4: I remember the repossession of people coming through after Dad

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Speaker 4: moved out, took our TV lounge fridge because Mom couldn't

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Speaker 4: afford the payments, and our quality of life kept going down.

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Speaker 4: But as a kid, all I can remember was Mum

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Speaker 4: throwing the pot. When I was going to school lock

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Speaker 4: Whose Primary school, I'd pull in the Eaton Hill Pub.

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Speaker 4: My dad was starting at the motel on the way

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Speaker 4: to school. So Dad do it something from the shops.

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Speaker 4: He gave me ten backs and get us a pack

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Speaker 4: of fags, and I lay for bread and so I'd

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Speaker 4: go down the shop give him matt and he said,

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Speaker 4: I keep the change. And I really loved my dad.

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Speaker 4: I was really close to my dad. He was a mechanic,

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Speaker 4: deeds a mechanic. And I'd done that for like three

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Speaker 4: four weeks. And one day I went knocked on the

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Speaker 4: motel and knocked on the motel. No one was there,

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Speaker 4: and so I went to get on my pushbite right off,

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Speaker 4: and the garden was in the car park and I

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Speaker 4: said to himself, you seen my dad, and goes, oh,

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Speaker 4: your dad doesn't live anymore. He's moved up north. And

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Speaker 4: when he said that, I just broke down and cried.

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Speaker 4: I can remember it clear as day. I just felt

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Speaker 4: that he abandoned me. And from then onwards just life

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Speaker 4: just went crap mate. My mom started moving from house

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Speaker 4: to house. I went from gool to school, and by

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Speaker 4: the time I was eight, I'd been at like six

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Speaker 4: different schools, seven different schools. She started drinking lots abused alcohol.

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Speaker 4: One in particular fellow that she was with. He used

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Speaker 4: to discover her by the hair and I'd walk out

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Speaker 4: and the lander at three o'clock in the morning, all

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Speaker 4: the screaming had stopped. I had my brothers and sisters

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Speaker 4: hit under the bed, but I walk out in the

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Speaker 4: lander and mumby sitting on the end of the lounge,

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Speaker 4: and her face would be mad in blood, two black eyes,

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Speaker 4: her false teeth to be smashed in half, and she'd

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Speaker 4: be sitting on the lounge like that, the superlo trying

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Speaker 4: to glue her teeth back together.

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Speaker 2: The alcohol, no food in the cupboards.

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Speaker 4: Every school, you go to your height behind the library,

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Speaker 4: and because other kids would picked on you, you never

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Speaker 4: had a fixed group of friends, never had school clothes

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Speaker 4: like other kids. I was going through all this stuff

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Speaker 4: as a young kid, and I shouldn't have been subjected

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Speaker 4: to it. But eventually mumy going to a rehab and

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Speaker 4: my brothers and sisters went to my grandma, and I

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Speaker 4: tried to stay with my mom. So Gavin Judy and

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Speaker 4: Gavin Shrean Gray went to grandma's. My sister went to

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Speaker 4: her best friends, and I went into her Wansley Children's

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Speaker 4: Home and then into Foster Cany. Mom at the rehab

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Speaker 4: and then when she get out of the rehabit all

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Speaker 4: she did was drink and spend time with his bloke.

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Speaker 4: And I met some young kid in the caravan park

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Speaker 4: and it's become mates. And one night I said, Mum,

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Speaker 4: can I stay with it my mate's carry and he

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Speaker 4: goes yeah, And then I started with my mate's caravan

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Speaker 4: and I wake up three o'clock at the morning and

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Speaker 4: my mate's uncle was giving me oral sex and I'm

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Speaker 4: laising their frozen solid and mate year old kid and yeah,

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Speaker 4: this bloke was doing stuff to me and I had

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Speaker 4: to pretend I was asleep. And the reason I share

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Speaker 4: that is that that's one of the root causes of

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Speaker 4: why I was like I was. And I remember geting

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Speaker 4: up in the morning and walked out of the carrian

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Speaker 4: park and I heard a voice and it says, tell you, mum,

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Speaker 4: And then I heard another voice and now, stuff ya suffer.

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Speaker 4: She doesn't love you. She loves this man or the

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Speaker 4: alcohol more than she loves you. And I remember thinking,

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Speaker 4: as night year old kid, yeah, stuffa, she loves him

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Speaker 4: more than she loves me. If she loved me, I

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have been molested. I would have been all these

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Speaker 4: children's homes. I mean, I would to be in all

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Speaker 4: these different schools. And so from the age eight, I

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Speaker 4: literally hated her guts and every chance I could, I

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Speaker 4: just ran away. I'd run away from her to sleep

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Speaker 4: under my mate's floorboards. And if it wasn't and that

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Speaker 4: I was in Good Samaritan bidness. I was living on

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Speaker 4: the streets from the age eight. Age of nine, they

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Speaker 4: put me into another children's home even Perth called Parkaol

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Speaker 4: Children's Home, and I spent three sins in there. From

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Speaker 4: the age of nine, I used to run away back

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Speaker 4: up there for two weeks run away again the third

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Speaker 4: time they caught me from the good run away from Parky.

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Speaker 4: I was sleeping in the Good samaran been at the

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Speaker 4: middle of Gate Shoping Center. And I remember waking up

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Speaker 4: in the morning five o'clock, four o'clock on the morning

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Speaker 4: with the coppers with a big torch light on my head.

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Speaker 4: And so they took me back up to Parklor So

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Speaker 4: I hadn't seen me dad since he took off when

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Speaker 4: I was six. From now nine, they took me out

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Speaker 4: to park with children's aims and I walked walked into

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Speaker 4: this room right and I had my dad sitting on

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Speaker 4: the right and I had the counselor sitting on the left.

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Speaker 4: And again I remember this as clear as day, and

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Speaker 4: she said, listen Pete, you obviously don't want to be here.

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Speaker 4: You're wasted down time and our resources. You can either

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Speaker 4: go with your dad or you're going a lot more.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't realize long more was a boy's prison,

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Speaker 4: like with bars and all that sort of stuff, actual prison.

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Speaker 4: But I looked at my dad and I heard his

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Speaker 4: voice again and said, he doesn't love you. He loves

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Speaker 4: the babysitter more than he loves you, because it turned

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Speaker 4: out that he ended up running off with a babysitter,

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Speaker 4: had two kids with her, and went out to the

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Speaker 4: marble bar.

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Speaker 2: That's where he'd been for the last three years.

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Speaker 4: But I looked at me Dad, and I heard this voice,

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Speaker 4: I don't love you now, And so I said to

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Speaker 4: this chick, I got a lot more.

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Speaker 2: And then I heard this voice and making a mistake, and.

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Speaker 4: Then I heard these other ways, nice stuff stuff he

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Speaker 4: make him pay for what he's doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

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Speaker 4: And so my dad was the one who drove me

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Speaker 4: a lot more eleven o'clock at night, and when we

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Speaker 4: pulled it up at the gates, nine year old kid,

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Speaker 4: and I tell you what, my heart mate was going

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Speaker 4: fin in a mile and hour. I've never been so

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Speaker 4: scared and we're like And I walked up to these

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Speaker 4: big bars, this prison offs to come down with all

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Speaker 4: these keys, and I went through the gates and I

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Speaker 4: looked back and the dad walking back to the car

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Speaker 4: and with the baby sit in the front of the

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Speaker 4: passage seat or his wife. And they took me into

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Speaker 4: the into the prison. They took me into the prison

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Speaker 4: and the train, and they stripped me naked. They put

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Speaker 4: nick cream on my hair, crab cream on me nuts,

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Speaker 4: and they gave me six comic books and eat the

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Speaker 4: toilet shoders. And they marched me down these right prison

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Speaker 4: cells and there's like nine cells to the left, nine

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Speaker 4: cells to the right.

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Speaker 2: I'm getting put.

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Speaker 4: In prison just because I want my mom and my

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Speaker 4: dad and I done nothing wrong. And I remember when

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Speaker 4: they marched me down about six cell and the left

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Speaker 4: down side open the door, pushed me in the slot

285
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Speaker 4: and the bolted the door shut. I remember chucking me

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Speaker 4: comic books that we crap on the steel bench, jumping

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Speaker 4: on the bed, just grabbed a hold on my pillow,

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Speaker 4: started to bottomie out, crying saying, if you let me

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Speaker 4: out now, I'll behave. I won't run away again.

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Speaker 2: That experience of getting put in a prison as a

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Speaker 2: nine year old kid. Kid scared the liver crap out

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Speaker 2: of me.

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Speaker 4: I'm rocking side to side and I heard a voice

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Speaker 4: in me cell Again, I'm going to refer to a

295
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,319
Speaker 4: voice quite often, but I heard a voice of Mesell

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Speaker 4: and I said, Peter, from this stay forward. You're going

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Speaker 4: to have to look after yourself. And so I made

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Speaker 4: a vow from they stay forward. I'm going to look

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Speaker 4: after myself when I get stressed. Now I'm a fifty

300
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Speaker 4: four year old fellof, but I cut on my slow

301
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Speaker 4: to get to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Every night.

303
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Speaker 4: I wake up the next day and we clean your

304
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Speaker 4: cell out, up your floor, stand by yourself door for selling,

305
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,959
Speaker 4: inspects to shirts tucked down, hands behind your back, not talking.

306
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Speaker 4: So I'm sit there in the prison sell with all

307
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Speaker 4: these other kids, and do they inspect you end up

308
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Speaker 4: spending three months in Lonmar. But that three months in

309
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Speaker 4: Nornmore was the first time that I ever found I

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Speaker 4: had a home.

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Speaker 2: All those other kids in you know, there's about one hundred.

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Speaker 4: And forty of them, one hundred and thirty of them,

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Speaker 4: but they all had stories like mine, that mum had

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Speaker 4: run off with a man, or dad had run off

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Speaker 4: with a woman and they were just like me. All

316
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 4: they wanted was a mum and dad normal, But because

317
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Speaker 4: of the life that they parents have lived, they were

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Speaker 4: wearing the consequences of the parents' choices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just unpacked that story and I haven't interrupted

320
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Speaker 1: you because it's just it's heavy, mate, that's a sad

321
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Speaker 1: story and that you know, my heart goes out for you.

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Speaker 1: And I'm looking at your seeing you're a big tough man,

323
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Speaker 1: but I'm looking at this young kid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, life dealt you some shit cards, But isn't it.

325
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't good.

326
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Speaker 1: Just how these things happen, these sliding door moments, and

327
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 1: just one person's life is just forever stuffed up. I'm

328
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Speaker 1: sitting here and I've heard a lot of stories on

329
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Speaker 1: my catch killers and a lot of people have been

330
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Speaker 1: down some tough paths. But Peter, the way that you

331
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,360
Speaker 1: told that really took me there and thinking what would

332
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: I be thinking at that age as a kid, What

333
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 1: would be going through my head?

334
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Speaker 3: Like my mom doesn't love me, my dad doesn't love me.

335
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Speaker 1: Violence is the thing you go to a place where

336
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: you feel a little bit more secure, you sexually assaulted,

337
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Speaker 1: then you get locked up in a prison, and it's

338
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 1: a prison, call it juvenile whatever, it's a prison.

339
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 3: You're not allowed out.

340
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 1: You haven't done anything wrong, You're just trying to look

341
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Speaker 1: after yourself. Like fuck me, I do not know how

342
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,400
Speaker 1: people come through that and the stuff that you must

343
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,480
Speaker 1: carry from that. We all carry some sort of childhood trauma.

344
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Speaker 1: But full credit to you that you can sit here

345
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Speaker 1: and talk about it and you survive that. I just

346
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: want to get a sense, like you're in and out

347
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,160
Speaker 1: from the age of nine into those detention centers. Do

348
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 1: you have an old detention centers does it create Tell

349
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Speaker 1: me how you think when you're in there, because I

350
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,840
Speaker 1: would imagine you'd be thinking, I'm just a worthless piece

351
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 1: of shit. Nobody cares about me. This is you know,

352
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,520
Speaker 1: and you've become a self fulfilling prophecy.

353
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Speaker 4: I would imagine in jail you've got a projected image

354
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 4: that people perceive to fit in with where you are.

355
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 4: You've got to adapt to the culture. But what's normal

356
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 4: in prison is what's normal outside. And prisons don't actually

357
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,800
Speaker 4: make your better, they make your worse. And so when

358
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Speaker 4: you get out of prison, even though you're out of prison,

359
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 4: you're still in prison. You can take the prisoner out

360
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,880
Speaker 4: of prison. You've got to get the prison out of

361
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 4: the prisoner. And so all jail did for me, I

362
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 4: was just institutionalized. If I wasn't locked up, I've been

363
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 4: living on the streets. But I thought I was away,

364
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 4: that I wasn't good enough, I didn't belong No one

365
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,960
Speaker 4: loved me, Mum and dad. I was just a mess man.

366
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 4: And then and then there's stuff I'll be in for.

367
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,000
Speaker 4: I spent seven years a lot more two years in Riverbank.

368
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 4: When I wasn't locked up, I lived on the streets.

369
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 4: I was straight kidding Perth from nineteen seventy nine, nine

370
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Speaker 4: eighty eight. Yeah, when I was in jail, mate, I

371
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 4: was on the on the streets do a lot of

372
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:33,600
Speaker 4: stuff they shouldn't have done.

373
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Speaker 1: Well, I look at look at your life, per Who

374
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: do you have as a role model there? Like who's

375
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 1: who's your role model? You like it as a kid,

376
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 1: you're looking for role models. You're looking for someone that

377
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 1: I want to follow that person or I want that

378
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,760
Speaker 1: person to help me in life.

379
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 3: Who is your role model?

380
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 4: And then again, I've come across a couple of geek fellaws,

381
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 4: older fellaws. They just feel like they're your dad, and

382
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 4: I get I get that with Chris DAWs. I met

383
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 4: Chris DA's West Australian governor at the moment, but I

384
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 4: met him a fair few years back.

385
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 3: And form former cop Chris.

386
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was a police commissioner and then now he's governor.

387
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 4: But I really related to remember time I sat down

388
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 4: and how he armed with him and an unpacked. He

389
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 4: just he felt like my dad.

390
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,000
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, And.

391
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 4: So there's a few blakes like that that's come across

392
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,879
Speaker 4: my path since I've been semi normal that I can

393
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 4: I can download to.

394
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 2: But otherwise I've got one.

395
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 4: Hundred and sixty residents and all these stuff, so I

396
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,880
Speaker 4: don't really have time to look up. I'm just focusing

397
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 4: on what's someone below me.

398
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 3: Hey, I ask you this question.

399
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 1: Do you think if at that stage and you know

400
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 1: the nature of the person that you are or whatever,

401
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 1: do you think if there was one person in your life? Yeah,

402
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,399
Speaker 1: so it was an uncle and auntie, just someone that

403
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 1: could have helped you and steered you through, do you

404
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 1: think your life would have been completely different?

405
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 2: Nah?

406
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,880
Speaker 4: I don't actually reason being is I was full that

407
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,440
Speaker 4: unforgiveness and having unforgiveness in his like swallen rat poison

408
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 4: and expecting the other person to die. And I believe

409
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 4: that all my actions and everything that I'd done was

410
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,960
Speaker 4: paying them back, but it was actually hurting me. So

411
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 4: I hated my mom, I hated my dad, and I

412
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 4: made sure that I made whatever decisions that I could

413
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,640
Speaker 4: to have a negative effect on them. And the absence

414
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 4: of having mum and dad. I mean, I've never played

415
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 4: I've never played sports. The one thing I did with

416
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 4: the sports is I've never played sports. I've never been

417
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 4: on a family holiday. I've never been able to run

418
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 4: up the corridor and jump into bed with Mum and

419
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,679
Speaker 4: Dad for cuddle. I mean, no one taught me how

420
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,639
Speaker 4: to lift the toilet seat to do a piss, you know.

421
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I just I was just angry. He

422
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 4: blamed everybody else and no matter who it was that

423
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 4: tried to help me. My grandma, I took off, my uncle,

424
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 4: I took off my other Gramdmar, I just took off.

425
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 4: I just yeah, I was just I just want my

426
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 4: mom and my dad. There was no substitute.

427
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's that like almost survival to the anger that

428
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,359
Speaker 1: you just you hate the world.

429
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, you hate the world, and you look at the

430
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 4: drugs and substances that cover it out, and you try

431
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 4: to have a good time and trying to find a

432
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 4: substitute for what you didn't never had, and I never

433
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 4: found it.

434
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 1: Talk us about the drugs you're living the life of crime.

435
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your crime, but just talk

436
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: us about the creep into the world of finding peace

437
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 1: with your drugs or finding something you're looking for with drugs.

438
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 3: How'd you fall into that?

439
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 4: So after I spent three months in long Wall for

440
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 4: the first time when I was nine, they put me

441
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 4: in another children's home. I met some of the kids

442
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,159
Speaker 4: who were in Long War in the children's same and

443
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,360
Speaker 4: that's when I was introduced to drugs when I was nine,

444
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:47,480
Speaker 4: with cones first, then math, speed, then myth later on. Yeah,

445
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 4: I just started the drugs from there, being institutionalized from

446
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 4: the age of nine to eighteen, and that was just NonStop,

447
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 4: no conviction, just kept doing what I'd do and I

448
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 4: went started breaking the house, of stealing cars, fraud high

449
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 4: speed chases. I'd be locked up for six months out

450
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 4: for a month, back in for eleven months, out for

451
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 4: a day, back in for another. I spent seven birthdays

452
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 4: in a row in a lot more two years in Riverbank,

453
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 4: and my my crime and all my stuff started slowing

454
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 4: down when I hit probably the age eighteen nineteen.

455
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: So what was drugs doing for you? Did you, like,

456
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 1: did you even have a sense this was dangerous for you?

457
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: Like it was anyone sort of gown? What are you doing?

458
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: Did you ever think what am I doing?

459
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 2: No? Not that day.

460
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 4: I was just having a hell of a lot of fun,

461
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 4: sleeping with her. I can sleep with grab a holder,

462
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 4: can grab a hold. I just have a lot of fun.

463
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 4: Young and stupid. Absolutely, I'm stupid, unteachable everyone else.

464
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 2: What do you know? Old people use it? You mean,

465
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 2: I'm just young and stupid.

466
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: When when did you realize in your life that you

467
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 1: became dependent on drugs so that it really got you,

468
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: Like at first you're thinking I can try this, I

469
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: can walk away from When did you yourself go shit,

470
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: it's got me.

471
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 4: Probably around nineteen I was. I mean, I'd stop doing

472
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 4: the petty crime stuff. I mean I'd buy stolen goods

473
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 4: here and there. But yeah, I just couldn't do without drugs,

474
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 4: you know. And I've moved like literally every three months

475
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,239
Speaker 4: in my whole life, right up to the age of

476
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 4: thirty one.

477
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 2: I'd go from town to town to town.

478
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 4: I think, if I just go to Caggooley, right, I

479
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 4: just go to Cagooley, I'll just gout there and work.

480
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 4: But when I got to Cagiley, because of my personality

481
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 4: and who I felt comfortable with, everybody that I felt

482
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 4: comfortable with was doing what I did want to do.

483
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,479
Speaker 4: So I'd start off with a packet, get to an

484
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 4: We'll get to an ounce, and that's how I'm going

485
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,719
Speaker 4: to go. And so then I took off to South Australia.

486
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 4: I detox and then I run into somebody else. I

487
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 4: start off with the packet, getting an able, get to

488
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 4: an ounce. And if I wasn't on the math, I'll

489
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 4: be on the chill and it wasn't on the chore.

490
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 4: I'll be on a drink and I wasn't on the drink,

491
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 4: then I'd be on the prescription medication. I needed some

492
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 4: sort of chemical or substance to feel normal. But the

493
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 4: problem is my tolerance. You start off with one, then

494
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 4: you go to two, and then two goes to four,

495
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 4: and it's just it's just like a snic, a never

496
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 4: ending cycle. I didn't realize all my childhood stuff or

497
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,240
Speaker 4: the pain or the anger or the guilt, the shame

498
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 4: or the I didn't realize all my childhood stuff was

499
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 4: having in effect. I mean I was looking for something

500
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 4: to try and mask or cover it.

501
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that you could travel anywhere or

502
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 1: go or try to break away, but the kind finds kind.

503
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: You end up with the people that you've ran away

504
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 1: from there in another town.

505
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

506
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 4: Like I said, you can take the prisoner out of prison, right, Yeah,

507
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 4: but you've got to get the prison out of the prisoner.

508
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 4: And when you go to prison, you've got to learn

509
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 4: to project the image that people perceive and what you

510
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 4: do in jail and who you've got to become. Even

511
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 4: if you're a good person, I mean, you're blake walking

512
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 4: in your slot. You've got stamp over his lies. It's

513
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 4: intimidation's bulliants.

514
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 2: And all that.

515
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 4: And when you live in that environment for three, six,

516
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 4: twelve months and then you get out, there's only certain

517
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 4: people you feel comfortableund I mean, you're a geek straight out.

518
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 4: You projected image that I perceive that you're normal, and

519
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 4: my mum and dad, family holiday has done all this

520
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 4: normal stuff. I mean I feel uncomfortable around you. You mean,

521
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 4: you feel I feel like you're better than me. So

522
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 4: I go hang around people I feel comfortable, but they're

523
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 4: all smashing picks in their arms and smoking pipes and

524
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 4: pop and Pillso it's not just about rehabilitations, reintegration, resocialization,

525
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 4: having to learn about having normal conversation with normal people

526
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 4: who do normal stuff. But you never go there because

527
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 4: it just brings up all your insecure or your crap.

528
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 4: So you just go where you feel comfortable because it's easier.

529
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense the way you're explaining that you're

530
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: going to gravitate towards an area or a group of

531
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: people that you feel comfortable with. Let's break it down.

532
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: Your experience in the juvenile tension centers, the boys' homes,

533
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: whatever we want to call them. They have a hundred

534
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: different different names for it. What's how could that be improved?

535
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: And I know, well I can say in New South Wales,

536
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: I know corrective services are trying to make it make

537
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: a difference, but you looking you've experienced it, is there

538
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: anything that they could have broken the cycle in that environment?

539
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 2: Or mate?

540
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 4: I mean, I've been part of the system, water of

541
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 4: the state, you name it, ever since i was a

542
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 4: nine eight year old kid.

543
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: I was flagged.

544
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 4: I was sat in front of hundreds of psychiatrists, counselors, doctors,

545
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 4: child psychologists, parole officers, community corrections, and those people don't

546
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 4: realize the power that they have with that pen. And

547
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: most of the people that I've sat with is just

548
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 4: as screwed up as what I am. Even now, I

549
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 4: have twenty counselors and I have to interview two hundred

550
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 4: to get one. But the system, right, they always talk

551
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 4: about reducing the ricis of them. Rate my house, we

552
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 4: just don't allow swearing, we don't allow gossip, we don't

553
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 4: allow drugs. We don't mean the system itself. Now I

554
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: have a psychiatrist, psychologist, child psychologists, I have twenty counselors.

555
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: I have the work life, home life.

556
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 4: I have all my own team all on board, and

557
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 4: we work together as a team to help people change

558
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 4: their life. The system they're not working together as a team.

559
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 4: I mean, one does it this way, and then this

560
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 4: one does it different, and this one does it different,

561
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 4: and so you're just throwing around the system. But when

562
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 4: you take away the coke un mechanism, you've got to

563
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: deal with the roots. So your picture over here, we've

564
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: got Bankshire Hill, which is a youth detention center. You're

565
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 4: pitting kids in a prison culture. I mean, if we

566
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 4: started a new unit twenty one and you start by

567
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 4: developing the culture, I mean, and honesty and highness and

568
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 4: all that sort of stuff. When you put a person

569
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: in that and you keep maintaining those rules, the person

570
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: changes adapts. If the prisoners and all that bad culture

571
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 4: is stronger than the good culture, the good culture is

572
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 4: going to get it wiped out. But if the good

573
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 4: culture is stronger than the bad culture, the bad culture

574
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: is going to get wiped out.

575
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: That's why Shalon works. I got one hundred and.

576
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 4: Sixty living residents to stay with me between one year

577
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 4: to three years. And I just don't tolerate swearing. I

578
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 4: don't tolerate roosters. I'll chop rooster's heads off out the street.

579
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 4: And it's not okay to gossip, it's not okay to

580
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 4: drop behind somebody else's back. And thirteen years, I'll have

581
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 4: not one police car, not one ambulance. I mean, you

582
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: want to live under my house. I want love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness.

583
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: And the stuff the stuff you're talking there and will

584
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: unpack it in detail. But that's the type of thing

585
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: that could be brought bought into the prisons in the

586
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: chemis centers.

587
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: Change the change the culture, set the culture.

588
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: And I just okay, we'll talk more on that, but

589
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: I just want to get a sense, like the crimes,

590
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: what what do you look back at your crimes now?

591
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 1: Like I'm saying, a person that's got the interests of

592
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: society and come to terms of everything that's gone on,

593
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: do you look back at some of the crimes that

594
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: you're committed. Is there any crime that you've looked back

595
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: and gone how I don't even recognize that person.

596
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 4: Most of them the main from from the from credit

597
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 4: card for it. They may using other people's identities, from

598
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 4: stealing people's bobcats. I mean it's like I got a

599
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 4: lot of regret. I mean I stole one Blake's bobcat,

600
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: had it delivered to the house, and went and sold

601
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 4: her on him and that wiped him and his family out.

602
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 4: I mean, I've had ex girlfriends where she inherited some

603
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 4: foreign notes. The foreign notes were nothing, but the value

604
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: in those just because there were a grandfather's The value

605
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 4: to her was not about the money. It was about

606
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: all these my grandpops. And when I turned my life

607
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 4: around twenty years later, I hadn't seen her for twenty years.

608
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: I actually found her and apologized that she broke down.

609
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 4: She'd been carrying that for twenty years. I've done a

610
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: lot of stuff that I'm ashamed of. I've slept with

611
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: hundreds of prostitutes and broken her house and just done

612
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 4: stuff that's just not good. I mean, selling all the

613
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 4: drugs in that. This is not good. I mean, I'm sorry,

614
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:43,479
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

615
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 1: No, it's thanks for your honesty. Have you allowed yourself

616
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: to forgive yourself? I say this, I'm not going to

617
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: sit here in judgment of anything you've done. Looking at

618
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: the start you're having life. So have you allowed yourself

619
00:27:59,000 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: to forgive?

620
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: I have?

621
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 4: But for me, whenever I'm do an interview like this,

622
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 4: I really don't care what you think about, or your

623
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 4: listeners or whatever watch is on. What you see is

624
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 4: what you get. If you don't like as your your problem.

625
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: But I'm going to be real and I'm going to

626
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 4: lead by example. I mean, if I can talk about stuff,

627
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 4: then they can talk about stuff. I mean, somebod I'm

628
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: one hundred percent transparent, and what you see is what

629
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 4: you get. And I have I forgiven myself. You've forgiven myself.

630
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: Do I regret what I've done?

631
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? Do I regret not having mom and Dad? Yeah?

632
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 4: Do I regret sleeping by my eyes back and having

633
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 4: to tell her and watch your tears falling in the face.

634
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I regret it.

635
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: I mean when I put my kids through and man

636
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: of the times I spent in jail, I regret it.

637
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: I mean, and I don't want other people to live

638
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 4: the life that I've lived. My family, right, he's the

639
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 4: one that's laying back right now in a prison cell.

640
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: He doesn't want to be here. He is he wants

641
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 4: to change. But the geeks and now other people, they

642
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 4: are not listening, and they just keep slapping them in prison,

643
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 4: and the prison doesn't fixture makes them worse. Your class

644
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: addiction five categories ab CD, and there's three types seeds.

645
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: These are the ones we take in shlammers and knee

646
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: that hit the brick wall, and ones to do whatever

647
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 4: it takes a change like the other. E's the one

648
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 4: that want to go from an illegal drug to a

649
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 4: legal drug. And the third one is what we build

650
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: prisons for. We should be filtrating the three a's, putting

651
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 4: the ones we build prison for in prison. The number

652
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 4: two a's should be going to drug an alcohol courses

653
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 4: until they want to change, and the third one should

654
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: be going to rehab and we're not. We're putting all

655
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 4: three e's in the one basket. We're wondering why West

656
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 4: Australia's prison population in the last ten years has gone

657
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 4: from seven hundred to twenty two hundred, and we've got

658
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 4: new prisons now obviously doing something wrong.

659
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: Look and we've been looking at a lot on my

660
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 1: catch killers and we've done a lot of exploration into

661
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: the prisons and what goes on. It just seems ridiculous,

662
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: the recidivism that comes through and West Australia and New

663
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: South Wales right across the country. If it's if it's

664
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: not working, let's look at how to change it.

665
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: Now.

666
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: I now over here and i've lived over in Perth.

667
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: I understand y there's a bad crime, there's big hullabaloo.

668
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: Politicians come out, We're going to get tough on crime,

669
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: mandatory sentencings, We're going to do this, all sorts of stuff.

670
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: That's what we get in New South Wales and all

671
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: the other states across the country. But we've got to

672
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: try and think a little bit outside the square. If

673
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: people get sent to prison, that's said punishment. They've been

674
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: taken away from society. Is it not in the interests

675
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: of everyone that if someone goes in the prison it

676
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: won't work for everyone. But if on the off chance

677
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: you can make that person a better person when they

678
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: come out of prison, I think everyone's a winner.

679
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

680
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 4: Well, I just had a fellow two weeks back and

681
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 4: spent fourteen months in shilim. He's only a young fellow

682
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 4: and got caught up doing something that he should have done,

683
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 4: got done with the only two ounces of math. He

684
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 4: couldn't give up the person who done it because of

685
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 4: the repercussions, which I won't going to and but he

686
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 4: spent fourteen months in Shilami's life changed. About two weeks

687
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 4: ago they put him in prison for three years. Yeah,

688
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 4: I mean it's going to undo what we've just done.

689
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 4: He's generally since remorse completely change owned everything. After fourteen

690
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 4: months in prison. Instead of lettinghim spend on another fourteen

691
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 4: months in prision, they stepping in jail for three years.

692
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: Well, I've seen some what I consider informed judges or

693
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: magistrates or whatever that look a little bit deeper, and

694
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: in a situation like that, they might make an exception

695
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: and go, well, you know, okay, the book said we're

696
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: going to send him back in or law says send

697
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: him there for another fourteen months.

698
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 3: But let's look at his life.

699
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: That's where I cringe where people say mandatory sentence, because

700
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: in all the times I was in the cops, I

701
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: didn't see him one offense. It was identical to the other,

702
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: like your upbringings, different to the other person and the circumstances,

703
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: so it's not one punishment fits all. But I also

704
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: speak to victims of crime, so yeah, these are people

705
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: that robberies where their loved ones have been murdered, a

706
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: kid murdered, all sorts of things, and one person I

707
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: raise him quite often because he's a bit, a bit

708
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: of a talk to me and I admire the stuff

709
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: that he's done. Ken Marslew, his son was murdered. He's

710
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: working seventeen years old, working in aizza pizza hut. M

711
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: Robbers come in, they shot him, shot him in the

712
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: back of the head with a shotgun, killed him. Ken

713
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: was absolutely fuming. He was angry, every emotion you could

714
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: think a parent would have in that circumstances. He wanted revenge,

715
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: he wanted to see him punished, he wanted death penalty,

716
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: wanted everything to occur. We're now twenty years down the track,

717
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: and you speak the can.

718
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 3: He goes, I still.

719
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: Hold that anger. I still hold that anger. But what's

720
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: going to happen if I hold that anger? It's going

721
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: to destroy me. If they make prisons the whole system

722
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: work to make the person better when they come out,

723
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: that's not getting soft on crime. That's getting smart on crime,

724
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: and it's helping victims because there'll be less victims. And

725
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: it's a simple philosophy. But I think, touching on what

726
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: you're being saying, I think you'd agree it makes sense.

727
00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

728
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 4: I mean what does makes sense also in wa is

729
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 4: that if you've got a criminal record, and they've actually

730
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 4: blanketed where you can't get into the prison system anymore.

731
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 4: It's literally any person with the criminal record. I was

732
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 4: at one of the prisons here, Kasha Prison, from two

733
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 4: thousand and five to ten, three days a week, as

734
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 4: a volunteer. In twenty ten, they just thought that and

735
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 4: lived experience people who actually generally sincerely have turned their

736
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 4: life round, do have a lot to give.

737
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: Well you should and get in touch with me. I

738
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: can source it if we need to. Because over in

739
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: New South Wales, I've seen a lot of people come

740
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: here that the burn in situations like yours, done time

741
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: in prison and they're opening their minds up to bringing

742
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: them back and working in. In fact, had a blot

743
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: that had done five years that then ended up working

744
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: as a welfare officer in the prison and seeing people,

745
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: the prisoners that he was sharing the cell with. He's

746
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: come in as working for Creative Services that's down in Victoria.

747
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 2: So well that's great.

748
00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I lived experience because half the time, if you're

749
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: in that environment, you got to bridge up. You can't

750
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: show weakness. And you know you're not going to listen

751
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: to as you call them, a geek or a straighty

752
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: one to eighty come in and say this is how

753
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: you should live your life. But if you walk in

754
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: the door and go well, this is what's happened to me,

755
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: and this is my story and this is what I

756
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: think you do, people will sit and listen. It just

757
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: makes just make sense, doesn't it.

758
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 2: Ond Per I'm actually a geek now Greek.

759
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 4: To me, he's like a normal person, a productive member

760
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 4: of society, free for inancers of drugs and substances and

761
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 4: do normal stuff. I mean, so I am actually a geek.

762
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 4: But an image like these fellows is on the end

763
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 4: of these cameras here they look like geeks.

764
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I know what you're saying.

765
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: But to get to get to those people, to listen

766
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 1: lived experiences is something. And yeah, being a geek because

767
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: you describe yourself. I had a mate that was in

768
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: the bikies for a long time and he's okay, and

769
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: I respected it to a degree. He was I'm an

770
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: outlaw and I don't have a job. I don't pay taxes.

771
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm bike here, we're a one percent on the patch

772
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: and that's what I do. He changed his life around,

773
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: turned his life around. He contacted me years and years

774
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: later and said, you know what, mate, it's not bad

775
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: being a sevilan, working, paying taxes, being part of society.

776
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: And I love.

777
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: Seeing those turn around because he just did not see

778
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 3: it at the time.

779
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.

780
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: Okay, with the drugs and the time in prison, how

781
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: long did you bend in prison?

782
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: All up?

783
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 4: So I say to people that I spent twenty six

784
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 4: years in prison.

785
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: Even when you're not in prison, he's still in prison.

786
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: I understand what you know.

787
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 4: Even though from the age of nine I was literally

788
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: my whole child was incarcerated from the age of nine

789
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 4: to eighteen, and my first char lagon was in nineteen

790
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 4: ninety one, and then I've made the rounds of all

791
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 4: the prisons and down here in Perth, and as a

792
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 4: bumb Recarnet Warlo okay show, even when you're not in prison,

793
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: you're still in prison. You can, like I say, you

794
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 4: can take the prisoner out of prison, but then you've

795
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: got to get the prison out of prison. I've never

796
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 4: added up exactly time I've done, but it wasn't until

797
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 4: two thousand and two thousand and two on my last

798
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: lagon is where my life actually broke for you and

799
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 4: I started a change.

800
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting concept and I haven't heard it

801
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: put that way, but the way you've articulated explains it

802
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: very well that yeah, it doesn't matter with you're serving

803
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: a twelve month sentence here and then you're out for

804
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 1: six months and doing eighteen months very imprison.

805
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 3: You're just outside the lagon.

806
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 4: Right and yeah, hit the brick wall ends in a

807
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 4: big finale, you get three years back.

808
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: Then they have you only.

809
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: Do two thirds get a third in remission, so you

810
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 4: only do it really a year, and so your detox

811
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 4: all of the drugs. Your family can start seeing your change.

812
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 4: You start putting meat back on, and you tell them

813
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 4: everything they want to hear.

814
00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: On the visits.

815
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 4: You're not drunk, you're not using drugs, you're not getting alcohol.

816
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: But when you get out, as soon as you get

817
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 4: out of jail, you celebrate the fact that you're doing

818
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 4: a lag. And the first thing you do is you

819
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 4: go get on and you have a shot, or you're

820
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 4: go and have a beer, and then one beer tunes

821
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 4: into two, and then someone rocks up with some gear

822
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 4: and then you have a shot. Second you get out

823
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,439
Speaker 4: of jail, they do they celebrate the fact that they're

824
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 4: on a lagging. And that's why I say at Shaloon,

825
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: we don't take people straight from Jarl unless they do

826
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 4: full time. They ring me up, say can we come

827
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 4: to Seloon, and I say yeah, when you do your

828
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 4: full time, walk out it, walk out the front gate,

829
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 4: go to our care, don't drink, don't use drugs and

830
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: give me a call and I'll send a helicopter to

831
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 4: pick out.

832
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: And it's like they don't. They go out and get

833
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 2: on first.

834
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 4: But the second you stick that pick in your arm mate,

835
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 4: or you smoke that pipe, you pop that pill, it's

836
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 4: like get it on a train even though you're not

837
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 4: in prison.

838
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: You're in prison.

839
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 4: You've just stuck it and the train it starts picking

840
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 4: up speed, it starts getting faster and faster.

841
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 2: And you know they're about to hit walling up. I

842
00:37:59,360 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 2: can jarl again.

843
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: Then one day you look up and all the doors

844
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 4: are shut, no conductors, no people bang it HiT's a

845
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 4: bit wall.

846
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: You're back in jarl again. I mean again. It's the

847
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 2: prison culture.

848
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 4: You take that prison culture with you when you get out,

849
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 4: and you hang around that prison culture because now that

850
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 4: prison culture becomes your standard normal and you feel more

851
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 4: comfortable around those types of people, then you do the

852
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 4: other types of people. You've got to get the prison

853
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 4: out of the prisoner. If you don't get the prison

854
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: out of the prisoner, it ain't going to change.

855
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes sense.

856
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: Was there any time during that and I want to

857
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: well lead into when you actually decided this is it.

858
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: I'm turning it turning my life around. Did you have

859
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 1: any false starts during that period? Did you come out

860
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: of prison one time and say, right, I'm going to

861
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: do it right? And if you did, and you fail.

862
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 4: Times, you get out and you go start work as

863
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 4: a tire fid and you get a job and you

864
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: think you're doing the right thing. And but I used

865
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 4: to look for the acknowledgment of my mum or my

866
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 4: dad or somebody, Oh, you're doing a good job, Peter.

867
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 4: But no matter how how hard I tried, or that

868
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 4: it was criticized, I never said, you're doing a good job,

869
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 4: And so I got stuff ya And a lot of

870
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 4: people that I deal with they want the acknowledgment, hey,

871
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 4: that they're doing well, but they don't get it and

872
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 4: they stuff it, so they just go back and do

873
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 4: what they shouldn't do. I could rattle off heaps of times.

874
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 4: I mean, but there wasn't anyone there to encourage her.

875
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: And even now, you're not going to get that encouragement.

876
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you ain't going to look for the acknowledgement.

877
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 4: He appears you just got to do it.

878
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: If you strip the layers back, with the upbringing that

879
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 1: you've had and the environments that you grew up in

880
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: and so many other people. I would imagine when you talk,

881
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: you don't get that encouragement. They have to be this

882
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: overwhelming feeling of self and yeah, you.

883
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: Just self flaving hate, yourself hate everybody, blame everybody else

884
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 4: for why you are like you are. It's your mum's fault,

885
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 4: it's your dad's fault, it's your brother's fold, a sh

886
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 4: uncle's fault, it's a cops fault. It's everyone else's fault.

887
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 4: But it's not my fault. That's where everyone's like that,

888
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 4: you know.

889
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: That is that start of the process where you've got

890
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: to take ownership and go, well, hold, it's I can

891
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: blame this person, that person upbringing, but there's one person

892
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: that control.

893
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing it.

894
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 4: But you've got to come to that point where you

895
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 4: allow because people try to tell you it could be

896
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 4: your mum, could be your dad, but I'm not going

897
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: to listen, and then their words are like water and windscreen.

898
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: It could be people have got their lives together, could

899
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 4: be your grandmother giving you a lecture or whatever. Grand

900
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 4: I mean, you just don't listen. You've got to there's

901
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 4: a certain time you've got to come to a certain

902
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 4: point where you will listen. And there's two times in

903
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 4: my life that I know that if somebody had to

904
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 4: listen and and grab my hand, I would have changed.

905
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 4: And so so because of the life that I've lived,

906
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: I use all of my lived experience to help me

907
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 4: to do what.

908
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: It is that I do today.

909
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 4: When I was nine, laying in that prison cell and

910
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 4: I'm rocking a pillow side to side, cry and saying, please,

911
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 4: if you let me out now, I promise I'll behave

912
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 4: I know that, I know that, I know that if

913
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 4: somebody had to grab my hand that day, that experience

914
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 4: is enough for me. I would have turned my life around.

915
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 4: It was different than any other experience that I had.

916
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 4: And another one when I was in nineteen eighty eight,

917
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 4: if somebody had reached out and grabbed my hand in

918
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 4: I know that, I know that, I know that I

919
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 4: would have changed. And they're the ones that I look

920
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,439
Speaker 4: for and the ones I take into Shilom. I worked

921
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 4: out a method of how to find and separate the

922
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 4: whek from the chart, so to speak, the serious for

923
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 4: the not serious.

924
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 1: What was the thing about those two examples, What were

925
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: the two things that and you speak so strongly about it.

926
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: I'm convinced what you're saying, where were you at in

927
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: that stage your life that would have made the difference.

928
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 4: When you hit the brick wall that ends in the

929
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 4: big FINALI the last thing you do is go to

930
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 4: rehab or I mean your brain automatically. When you hit

931
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 4: the brick wall, you ring your mum, you ring your grandma,

932
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 4: or you ring your uncle or your wife, and they

933
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 4: always take it in. I eat the brick wall. I

934
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 4: was at the bottom of myself. I had no one

935
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 4: to ring, but I had a thought in my head,

936
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 4: I can't do this anymore. I want to change. And

937
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 4: I felt that thought go from my head into my

938
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 4: heart and it was like a seed of life. Someone

939
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 4: give me this opportunity of our mate, and I'll grab

940
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: it with two hands. And there's only been twice in

941
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 4: my life that I've had that. But no one was there.

942
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 4: No one was there to grab my hand. And that's

943
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: what I do. I look for those who are at

944
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: that point. My family are laying in prison solves, they're

945
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: sticking PicTel around there.

946
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: I grew up with. That's why I do what I do.

947
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 4: I'm looking for those ones who come to the point

948
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 4: and say I can't do it anymore. I want to change.

949
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 4: That's a seed. I can water that seed, I can

950
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 4: make that seed grow.

951
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: You want to be that hand for those people.

952
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: I want to be that hand. Yeah, and I want

953
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 4: to raise up lots of other hands, you know, not

954
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 4: just me. I'm nearly hopefully finished at shalom. Soon I

955
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 4: can hand it over to and hopefully they can just

956
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 4: keep doing and I can do you.

957
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: I want to make a difference.

958
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind

959
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: the headlines of a gang.

960
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: War or shooting? Then you need to listen to crim City.

961
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: Join crime reporters Mark Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they

962
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: uncover the details of crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and

963
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: share the stories that don't make the papers. The latest

964
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: season of crim City is out now. Listen early and

965
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: ad free on Crime x plus on Apple Podcasts. Today,

966
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: let's talk about the time when you've gone okay, I'm

967
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: out of this life style.

968
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 3: What was that point?

969
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: You've talked two examples where if the right circumstances might

970
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: have made the difference when.

971
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: To do that. I'm going to talk about faith.

972
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 3: Is that all right, yeah, yeah, by all meds.

973
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to talk about Christianity. So I didn't grow

974
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: up going to church. I used to every time I

975
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 4: was in a lot more in Rubank and I was

976
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 4: locked up. You used to have to play two bucks

977
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 4: ago to an activity, and we used to have these

978
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: Christian mob come in, but they had to play games

979
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 4: with you and all of this stuff. And I remember

980
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: going on sevent years and long more. Then I went

981
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 4: to Ruverbank. I got eighteen months hit one Hit and Riverbank,

982
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 4: and one night these Christian great come in and they

983
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 4: chucked on these videos called.

984
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: Cross of the switch Plade, And.

985
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 4: There was this story about this part of America who's

986
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 4: grew up in the bronx on the streets, and his

987
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 4: story was like mine, I mean, and you can see

988
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 4: on the inside he wanted to be a good person.

989
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 4: And then this corny looking preacher comes down and basically

990
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 4: just says God loves you and all this stuff. But

991
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 4: I did showed on in the video how he used

992
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 4: to be. This bat's comes like all this real bad

993
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 4: person and then this corney preacher told him God loves him,

994
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 4: and then it shows him at the end of the

995
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: movie how his life changed. You mean, he stopped hanging

996
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 4: around the more moors or the games. And it's like

997
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 4: and I remember going back to my cell and I

998
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 4: got on my knees. It was the eighteenth of May,

999
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,439
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six. I got on my knees and I said, God,

1000
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 4: if you're real, and I bore my eyes out. Mate,

1001
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,479
Speaker 4: if you could change his life, he could change mine.

1002
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 4: I'm telling him. I had experience with him, and I

1003
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 4: know that he's real. But then when I got out

1004
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 4: of jail, I just went whatever and just forgot him,

1005
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 4: just kept living the life. And then in fast forward

1006
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 4: to two thousand and so that was nineteen eighty six,

1007
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 4: eight so eighty six, sorry, So fast forward to two

1008
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 4: thousand and one. I'd done three years of jail, got

1009
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 4: out of jail, and I thought to myself, I'm going

1010
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 4: to sell drugs and guns for a living and I'm

1011
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 4: not going to do I'm not going to do crime

1012
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 4: or buy hot goods to kick some of the heat off.

1013
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 4: And so I was married with my wife. I've got

1014
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 4: three kids, two to my wife. My son Peter was four,

1015
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 4: other son was one. I got jail just after he

1016
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 4: was born two weeks a week after he was born.

1017
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 4: But I got out of jail and I thought, I'm

1018
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 4: going to sell drugs for the JIT and so I

1019
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 4: just started selling eight balls then, and within three months

1020
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 4: I went from eight balls to ounces and ounces to

1021
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 4: pounds and then up getting a two and a half

1022
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 4: kilos I've met I'm selling a week and and I

1023
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 4: went really really big, really quick.

1024
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: Mym I'm and nobody.

1025
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 4: I'm just a common, everyday, pathetic looking crim But I'm

1026
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 4: telling me I went from the bottom of the food

1027
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 4: chain to the top of the shoe chain. I had

1028
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 4: a big factory full of cars. My house was bugged,

1029
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 4: my car was bugged. I was suffering psychosis two and

1030
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 4: a half kilos of mad I'd sold a box of

1031
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: dynamite to this dude and I reckon he was informant.

1032
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 4: And anyway, next day copp has come to my house.

1033
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: I had TRG coming through the front, back, shotguns, bullet proof,

1034
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 4: first helicopter of the roof, and I was doing sixteen

1035
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 4: days and no sleep. I have my missus laying on

1036
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 4: the floor with a shotgun to her head, with my

1037
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 4: with my two year old kid, with her in arms

1038
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 4: and stuff, and I just I just hated me, And

1039
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 4: when I really hated me, I hated.

1040
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: Everything that I stood for, everything I'd done.

1041
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 4: And I got done with a pan of pot, couple

1042
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 4: of handguns, and she got done with the color pot.

1043
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 4: She got handguns. All this on a record. She's never

1044
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 4: done nothing wrong. She's a country girl, you mean. But anyway,

1045
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 4: we both got out on bail. And and I've never

1046
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 4: played sports and stuff, like I said, but she she

1047
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 4: enrolled my son in and this thing called grasshop of soccer,

1048
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 4: and them days I used to have diamond rings on

1049
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 4: every finger. I was like sixty kilo, big bed, looked

1050
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 4: like skeleton, absolute goose. But she rolled him in his

1051
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 4: grass up of soccer. I'd got barwed out. And then

1052
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 4: the next time I'm over at the park. We were

1053
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: staying and I took my kid over because the country girls,

1054
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 4: that's what they do.

1055
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: I never played sports, but I go over the raid and.

1056
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 4: There's all these geeks there and the grasshoppers, like I

1057
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 4: was kick introduction to footy, and the and the dad

1058
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 4: the deer was that the dad. All these dads, these

1059
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 4: geeks were sitting there and a circle with their kid.

1060
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 4: And if the kid kicked the ball through the dad's

1061
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 4: legs and they had to roll around like an idiot

1062
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 4: on the ground. Goko you mean? And I'm thinking, man,

1063
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 4: it's not cool.

1064
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 2: I'm fried.

1065
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 4: And then his kid kicks his ball through his dad's

1066
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 4: legs and he died chi kitchiqui on the ground, and

1067
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 4: then the other he had done it. And I'm thinking,

1068
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 4: and if my boy kicks the ball room my legs, man,

1069
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 4: I'm out of here. And he kicked the ball through

1070
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 4: my legs and I just turned my back of my

1071
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 4: son and I walked off and I started.

1072
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: Ball of eyes out.

1073
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 4: I wouldn't give anything to make my son feel normal.

1074
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 4: I hated me. I hated how I smelled. I hated

1075
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,959
Speaker 4: the environment I put them through. I hated that would

1076
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: sleep in it and wake up lunch time and they

1077
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 4: weren't at school.

1078
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: I mean. And then and here I am, I work

1079
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: off my bat.

1080
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 4: And when I walked off with my son, I remember,

1081
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 4: I just said, I can't do it anymore. God, if

1082
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 4: you're real. I knew he was real because I got

1083
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 4: new when I was sixteen seven aeen. I said, God,

1084
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 4: if you're real, I need your help, and I'm balling

1085
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 4: my eyes. I gave with the missus, I said woman.

1086
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 4: I called with my wife and woe and I said.

1087
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: Woman gotok after the boy, and for me, that was

1088
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 4: the turning point. I'm dry he really really weird stuff

1089
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 4: started happening.

1090
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 2: She went.

1091
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 4: I over and looked after the kid, and I get

1092
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 4: out of my car and I'm going drive around me stuff.

1093
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 4: And it's like from that day for it, I couldn't

1094
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 4: get on. Every time I try to score drugs. The

1095
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 4: doors were shut. I went to go pick up off

1096
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 4: some gear off the Italian fellow I was getting my

1097
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 4: all mustache from and there's all these bloody coppers there

1098
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 4: that righted his van.

1099
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: And anyway, so.

1100
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 4: I'm driving around trying to do what I'm doing, and

1101
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 4: then I started hearing his voice in head saying, Peter,

1102
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 4: I want you to follow me.

1103
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: I want you to follow me. And I'm figuring, oh,

1104
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: this is be weird. It's not my car, I mean.

1105
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 4: And I'm driving along and there's a car in front,

1106
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,439
Speaker 4: and they would tap on his bright lights and I'd

1107
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 4: see a few flashes and I hear his voice of Peter,

1108
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 4: I want you to follow me. And so I follow

1109
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 4: this car. It goes left, right, left, and then it

1110
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 4: pulls up at a park and the car just drove off,

1111
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 4: and I'm sitting there in the car looking around, and

1112
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 4: then I look over in the park over there, and

1113
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 4: there's a mom and a dad with their kids playing

1114
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 4: in the car and in the park having a picnic.

1115
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: And I heard it clear as day his voice again.

1116
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: It says, Peter, I'm offering you this. And I just

1117
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: sat in my car and I cried, I've never had

1118
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 2: a picnic. I'll never give my kids a pickny when

1119
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: I when I take my kids to the park, I

1120
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 2: got send him on the swings and I have a

1121
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: shot in the car. I'm throwing up. I mean, I

1122
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: want that.

1123
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 4: That's everything I want. I just thought I want to

1124
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 4: be normal and then setting me card of a big solk.

1125
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 2: Again for all. And then I drive off and I'm.

1126
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 4: Driving and it's like, mate, I want you to follow me.

1127
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 4: I want you to follow me. There's another car. It's happening.

1128
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 4: So I'm following. This car went left, when right and left,

1129
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 4: and then it pulls up in the next of brandy

1130
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 4: display home and it drives off and I'm looking at

1131
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 4: this home and then I heard his voice, Peter, I'm

1132
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 4: offing you this, well, Brandy Holme is a place to

1133
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 4: call home.

1134
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: All ever I wanted was a place to call home.

1135
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 4: And and I remember sitting there bollowing my eyes out

1136
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: looking at this house. I'm telling you something we is

1137
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 4: going down and for two three days, yeah, for two

1138
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 4: three days, all this weird. So and tell him my

1139
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 4: missus is something we's gone down, and she goes, Oh.

1140
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 4: I thought it was a gear because I've been I've

1141
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 4: been spent two days up in roof cavities of houses,

1142
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 4: seeking little people down.

1143
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 3: There, sitecases, drugging.

1144
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've been over the park and one o'clock

1145
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: in the morning with a chainsaw. If you ain't come down,

1146
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm chopping it down. It's like plague people that followed me.

1147
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 3: I was like some of the great moments in life.

1148
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 4: Oh mate, I've been in nutwaters, back the fround a

1149
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 4: gun on, poot down the leg.

1150
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like little people. Yeah yeah.

1151
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 4: And I'm a missus thinking and we're going through this

1152
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 4: bloopy stuff. And I thought, right, well stuff, I'm I reckon,

1153
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 4: I reckon you mob the coppies, you're playing with me

1154
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 4: freaking ahead. I mean, because the coppers I found the

1155
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 4: listening devices. Jordan my bloom and in my brickwork and

1156
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,799
Speaker 4: all this other stuff he's done to me. And I'm figuring,

1157
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: right old stuff, you mob up. So I left the

1158
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 4: car and I got a new bike, and I was

1159
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 4: on this vee and fifteen hundred cruiser, a brand new bike,

1160
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 4: full taker juice, and I got the missions out out

1161
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 4: the door and sheaves to the door and pootr out

1162
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 4: this thing and I cut through two hundred meters of

1163
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 4: dirt on this faft fifteen hundred, and I lost to

1164
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 4: whoever it was. It might have been followed me, or

1165
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 4: I thought I did. And then I'm on this vee

1166
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 4: and fifteen hundred, and I'm out near a place called

1167
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: near Abut in Perth, which is like and I'm on

1168
00:51:58,120 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 4: this bike and I'm hearing his voice. I want you

1169
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 4: to allow me what you follow me? And I think,

1170
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 4: oh my god. So I pulled out the side of

1171
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 4: the raid and rip the helmet apart. How do you

1172
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 4: buggers get a speaker in there?

1173
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: Does that? Then I couldn't find nothing, so I sucked

1174
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 2: the fel crow back in there.

1175
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 4: And then I'm booting past a nearby roadhouse and I'm

1176
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 4: sitting on about one hundred and ten or whatever, and it

1177
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 4: was a standard bike, standard pipe standing everything. But then

1178
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 4: this thing stay out of the hand of bar Stard

1179
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 4: going tune and go ah, and the bike and the

1180
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 4: shut and your balls bouncing on the tank and it

1181
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 4: was like the most surreal, perfect insynct experience ever get

1182
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 4: on a bike and I mean we go yeah, And

1183
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: then I went and died on the side of the road,

1184
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 4: and I was thinking, wait, what have you done to it?

1185
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 4: And then I pulled the seed off and pulled the

1186
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 4: plastic tanks off.

1187
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 2: I'm looking for that motor that you fellas are put

1188
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 2: in there.

1189
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: It's normally it's normally when we've connected the electrical wrong

1190
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: that your car breaks down or the bike breaks down.

1191
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 4: But anyway, yeah, but I'm so looking for whatever he

1192
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 4: was put in there. The bloody play with my head

1193
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 4: and and I couldn't find anything. And I was even

1194
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 4: thinking that you're bob right, it had be on surveillance

1195
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 4: and that you were filming me. At one stage, I reckon,

1196
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 4: this is a psychosis, let's loop out a loopa, And

1197
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 4: so you were filming me as I'm going through all

1198
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 4: this stuff with the house, the kids in the park,

1199
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 4: and you're going to use this as an educational video to

1200
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 4: show people this happens when you use jokes.

1201
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: What you're talking and I've heard it. I've heard heard

1202
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: it at the time when people are saying that to me,

1203
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: I've heard it, like you reflecting on it, going shit, Well,

1204
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: this was what was going through my mind.

1205
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: So all up on that, I.

1206
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 4: Just want to tell you this bit right, I'm on

1207
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 4: I'm on this bike. I get on the side of

1208
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 4: the road and he asked me where it is that

1209
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 4: I changed my life. It started with my son at

1210
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 4: the socer.

1211
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:44,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1212
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 4: Then I'm on the three days of someone off from

1213
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 4: me everything I wanted. Then I'm on this bloom and

1214
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 4: bike and I'll get on the other side of the

1215
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 4: road because they had to hitch back to the roadhouse.

1216
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: And I've put my fun out.

1217
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 4: And there was this young couple that stopped and I

1218
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 4: got in the backseat of the car and we started

1219
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 4: driving on. They had this music plan, and out of

1220
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 4: the blue, this young fellow turns around him. He says, mate,

1221
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 4: I feel like God's telling me to tell you that

1222
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 4: he loves you and he has a plan and a

1223
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 4: purpose for your life. Out of the blue, left field

1224
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 4: and I started crying my eyes out. He said, pro

1225
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 4: let me at your car. I got out in the

1226
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 4: middle of nowhere, chuck me jacket and we let the

1227
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 4: jack on the side of the blub went in a.

1228
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 2: Bush had of silk, and I come back out.

1229
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 4: I stuck me if I'm out again, and I started

1230
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 4: hitching and then this black f two fifty pickup truck

1231
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 4: pulls up.

1232
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 2: It was a matte black flat trail of black, looked

1233
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 2: like a Kiwi.

1234
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 4: Dude had tattoos on the half side of his face,

1235
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 4: black paints ole hair and he says, pro is that

1236
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 4: you'll buy back there?

1237
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 2: I says, yeah, because I will go back and pick

1238
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: it up. Hey, And I said, nah, bro, somewhere is

1239
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 2: going to come down. I just got to get home.

1240
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 4: So I got in this dude's car and we started

1241
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 4: driving towards the roadhouse and he turns around him he says,

1242
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 4: made it for I got to tell you something.

1243
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, what's that?

1244
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 4: He says, God's telling me to tell you that he

1245
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 4: loves you and he has a plan and a purpose

1246
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 4: for your life. And that's the second person's pace of

1247
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 4: five k. I bought be eyes that he drove me

1248
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 4: to the Petro station. I remember walking in to the

1249
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 4: Petro station. I pulled all my gold jewlry, of all

1250
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 4: my chains, off, all my watch, and I threw everything

1251
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 4: to being. Somebody somewhere was offering me a life that

1252
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 4: I only ever dreamed of.

1253
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: I just want to be.

1254
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 4: A good person, a normal person, and I wanted what

1255
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 4: they're offering. And then I rang and misses up and said,

1256
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 4: you've got to come pick me up. Bike's breaking down.

1257
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 4: Something he is going down. She goes, I got to

1258
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 4: pick the kids up from schools. So I walked out

1259
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 4: in the highway, stuck me from out, and then this

1260
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 4: old granny pulls up and she's in a Dat's in

1261
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 4: two hundred bide Dado platinum white hair, and when she

1262
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 4: spoke of false teeth and flapping them out, and she goes,

1263
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 4: I don't normally pick a hiker's up, son, but you

1264
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 4: look different. And so I got on this granny's car

1265
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 4: and we started driving and I got three k out

1266
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 4: the raid and she turns around me and she said, honey,

1267
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 4: I feel that God is telling me to tell you

1268
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 4: that he loves you and has a plan and purpose

1269
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 4: for your life, that your life's not a mistake and

1270
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 4: I just cried all the way.

1271
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: She drove me all the way to Bayswater. And that's

1272
00:55:59,520 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: how my life.

1273
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 4: I've had three strangers in the space of not even

1274
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 4: fifteen k's and then I had a big, full on

1275
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 4: account after that.

1276
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: Peter, that's heavy and fascinating. And you said, is it

1277
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: all right to talk religion. I don't consider myself a

1278
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: religious religious person, but I'm a spiritual person. I think

1279
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: in some way, I just look at look at that,

1280
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: the story you've told this there, and of course you

1281
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: right to talk about it. It's your story, that's what

1282
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: changes whatever was working there. And they say, you know,

1283
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: God acts in mysterious ways.

1284
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't.

1285
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: I can't rebut what you're saying, and you know, if

1286
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,479
Speaker 1: that's worked for you, and it's when you break it down,

1287
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: it's three people showing you some kindness and consideration and

1288
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: it's sort of going, look, people do care about me.

1289
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: So it's factored in the where your life was at

1290
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: at that moment. So yeah, it's fascinating.

1291
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 4: I don't believe you're a fart. And I reckon when

1292
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 4: you die, and I reckon, you're going either up or down.

1293
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 4: It's either good or bad, and that's what we do.

1294
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 4: And it's just like there's just one wants you to

1295
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 4: do drugs and one doesn't want you. One they're just

1296
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 4: so good and a bad mate. And I mean, if

1297
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 4: the Church of God was like hungry Jack, should be chockers.

1298
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 4: But how do you know which one's which?

1299
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: Well, that's true, that's true. All right, Well look we're

1300
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: going to take a break here. When we come back,

1301
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about your life from that that

1302
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: point in time and the work that you do and

1303
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: showing house how you set it up, what it's about.

1304
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: That must have been your dream at the time. This

1305
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: is what I want to do and what you're doing.

1306
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to our chat on the second part.

1307
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 3: Thanks mate, Cheers,