Speaker 1: But President, mister President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful
Speaker 1: for you to come into the Oval Office to try
Speaker 1: to litigate this in front of the American media right now.
Speaker 2: So I think we should start with the meeting in
Speaker 2: the Oval Office between Zelenski, Trump and Vance. As you
Speaker 2: were watching it, I mean, tell me what you were seeing.
Speaker 3: I think there's a couple of different thoughts that jumped
Speaker 3: in my head.
Speaker 1: One was the lack of respect for a foreign leader
Speaker 1: coming to the Oval Office, especially one that has sacrificed
Speaker 1: so much to save his country from an invasion.
Speaker 2: David Sconi is a political scientist and his specialty is
Speaker 2: money in politics. So while much of the world was
Speaker 2: stunned by Donald Trump and JD. Vance's treatment of Lord
Speaker 2: mu Zelenski at their meeting in the Oval Office, David kind.
Speaker 3: Of saw it coming. The variety's been on the wall
Speaker 3: for weeks now.
Speaker 1: It may well be that the Trump administration decided they
Speaker 1: weren't in a back Ukraine immediately upon taking office three
Speaker 1: even months ago, and this meeting was just kind of
Speaker 1: a cherry on the cake to set that process further
Speaker 1: in motion. But it's this public declaration that relations between
Speaker 1: the US and the Ukraine are the worst they've been
Speaker 1: in years.
Speaker 3: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying
Speaker 3: to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going
Speaker 3: to feel.
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you because you're in no position to
Speaker 1: dictate that.
Speaker 4: You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.
Speaker 3: We're going to feel very good. We're going to feel
Speaker 3: very good and very strong.
Speaker 2: Before the meeting went off the rails. Before Zelenski was
Speaker 2: asked to leave, the leaders had been negotiating a deal
Speaker 2: that would give the US access to a significant share
Speaker 2: of Ukraine's rare earth minerals. But Russia has also been
Speaker 2: working on their own set of deals with Trump, and
Speaker 2: what they're angling for could be catastrophic for Ukraine. From
Speaker 2: Schwartz Media, I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am today.
Speaker 2: Associate Professor of Political science and International Affairs at George
Speaker 2: Washington University David Seconi on the new Russia US relationship
Speaker 2: and Trump's corporate diplomacy. It's Tuesday, March four. David, the
Speaker 2: original purpose of this catastrophic meeting at the Oval Office
Speaker 2: was to sign a deal where the US would get
Speaker 2: access to Ukrainian rare earth minerals that did not happen,
Speaker 2: And now there is this big question mark over what
Speaker 2: support the US will supply to Ukraine at all going forward.
Speaker 2: So what does that mean for Ukraine?
Speaker 1: A really difficult time going forward. Ukraine has depended on
Speaker 1: the US military and financial assistance since February twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: and there's not already substitute for everything that we've provided
Speaker 1: so billions of dollars to fund its government, key technical
Speaker 1: assistance to repair and rebuild parts of its economy and
Speaker 1: infrastructure that Russia keeps destroying. And also the intelligence support
Speaker 1: that the US appears to have been supplying and to
Speaker 1: a very large extent since February twenty twenty two, helping
Speaker 1: identify Russian targets to the best of our knowledge, passing
Speaker 1: on critical knowledge about how the battlefield is unfolding that
Speaker 1: Ukraine's been able to deploy on the ground. We don't
Speaker 1: know how much of that is in jeopardy, but conceivably,
Speaker 1: after Friday's meeting, the US could cut off every single
Speaker 1: type of assistance across all these different.
Speaker 3: Dimensions going forward.
Speaker 1: If I was your gran I would be worried and
Speaker 1: concerned about how it can continue to push back against
Speaker 1: the Russian military machine with basically half of the supporter,
Speaker 1: even less than that enjoyed in the last three years.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little more about alternate back is.
Speaker 2: Then Zelenski went straight to the UK to meet the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister their Kirstama after the meeting in the Oval Office,
Speaker 2: and this meeting it went very differently, didn't it. So
Speaker 2: can you tell me a bit about what came out
Speaker 2: of it and what you think the state of that
Speaker 2: alliance is at the moment.
Speaker 1: I think there's been more or less a united European
Speaker 1: front since Friday's meeting, initially on social media, now in person,
Speaker 1: signaling to Ukraine that Europe finally disagrees with the Trump
Speaker 1: administration and is going to try to do everything in
Speaker 1: its power to back Ukraine with what it needs.
Speaker 3: Rather than telling Ukraine what it should.
Speaker 4: Do, our starting point must be to put Ukraine in
Speaker 4: the strongest possible position now so that they can negotiate
Speaker 4: from a position of strength, and we are doubling down
Speaker 4: in our support. Yesterday evening, the UK signed a two
Speaker 4: point two billion pound loan to provide more military aid
Speaker 4: to Ukraine, backed not by the British taxpayer, but by
Speaker 4: the profits from frozen Russian assets.
Speaker 1: Now, Europe doesn't have the scale of military production to
Speaker 1: make up for the US abandoning Ukraine, and Europe has
Speaker 1: its own economic difficulties, and there's a lot of debate
Speaker 1: or whether it can afford to invest so much of
Speaker 1: its limited resources or borrow more than it already has,
Speaker 1: in order to both equip itself in the event that
Speaker 1: NATO ceases to be this backstop for Europe and supply
Speaker 1: Ukraine with what the United States have been providing, and
Speaker 1: potentially even more if it wants to change the course
Speaker 1: of the conflict.
Speaker 2: And Trump has been complaining for some time that he
Speaker 2: doesn't want the US to foot the bill for Ukraine's security.
Speaker 2: So in staging this disastrous meeting with Ukraine and then
Speaker 2: having Europe signal that it might come to the rescue,
Speaker 2: did Trump ultimately get what he wanted here?
Speaker 1: I think Trump wants America to lead the world in
Speaker 1: some respect, even if he doesn't want US to pay
Speaker 1: for it anymore. And the idea of all the European
Speaker 1: leaders coming together to fund their own version of foreign policy,
Speaker 1: the potentially challenge of the United States may weaken Trump's
Speaker 1: ability to project power that he's promised the US voters,
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't say he's sitting extremely pretty right now.
Speaker 3: After Friday, there's been I think a lot.
Speaker 1: More criticism in the media than I expected, even from
Speaker 1: some conservative sources, about how he advanced handled the meeting.
Speaker 1: Putin is extremely unpopular in the United States, and Zelenski
Speaker 1: has over a majority of support according to the best
Speaker 1: survey opinion polls that we have in this country. So
Speaker 1: he's tacked out a hardline decision that is in conflict
Speaker 1: with what most of the American public wants. So I
Speaker 1: think it's too soon to tell.
Speaker 2: Coming up after the break, what Russia is promising Trump.
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Speaker 2: David, there was a meeting between Russian and US officials
Speaker 2: in Saudi Arabia just over a week ago. Now, tell
Speaker 2: me about that meeting and how it compares to what
Speaker 2: we saw at the Oval Office.
Speaker 1: This was a pretty hastily convened meeting by the societies
Speaker 1: to bring together a handful of high ranking officials on
Speaker 1: the Russian and the US side to start a conversation
Speaker 1: about what a normalization of relations between US and Russia
Speaker 1: would look like, trying to put US Russia relations on
Speaker 1: a new footing. And both sides told each other what
Speaker 1: they wanted to hear, and therefore it seemed like there
Speaker 1: was optimism coming out of the meeting that they'd be
Speaker 1: able to hash something out, even though there's so much
Speaker 1: to be done in so many different issues that are unresolved.
Speaker 2: Right, Can you tell me about the key officials who
Speaker 2: were at those talks.
Speaker 1: So on the Russian side, they have the long time
Speaker 1: Foreign Minister Sergey Lvorov, who's been at this for decades
Speaker 1: now and extremely experienced, alongside the former Ambassador to the
Speaker 1: United States Yshkov, who's getting on in his years but
Speaker 1: has a lot of experience deal with the Americans. But
Speaker 1: I think the surprise to everybody was Caerier Dmitriev, who's
Speaker 1: severally younger than the other two from the Russian delegation.
Speaker 1: He has an MBA from Harvard Business School. He worked
Speaker 1: at Goldman Sachs. He's a deal maker, he's a business person,
Speaker 1: and he could speak the language both corporate and just linguistically,
Speaker 1: just English, and he's been in these situations before. I
Speaker 1: think they're putting a lot of faith that he's going
Speaker 1: to be able to work some magic with Trump.
Speaker 3: And his emissaries.
Speaker 2: And when you say the corporate or the business perspective,
Speaker 2: what is that perspective on these talks.
Speaker 1: It's something that I think a lot of tes have internalized,
Speaker 1: you know, since the election of November, is what do
Speaker 1: we do with Trump? Two point zero? How do we
Speaker 1: find a common language with Trump? And many countries, including Russia,
Speaker 1: have centered on this. Well, flattery, of course works, but
Speaker 1: so does speaking the language of business. So does offering
Speaker 1: Trump some type of business deal where America purportedly benefits financially. Right,
Speaker 1: Trump wants seems to want to demonstrate to American voters
Speaker 1: that he's making America wealthier, more prosperous. So Russia had
Speaker 1: trotted out several proposals that really pull.
Speaker 3: On this string with Trump.
Speaker 1: Right, these are areas of joint Russian and American investment
Speaker 1: in rare earth minerals.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: The Ukrainians offered something months ago the background of this
Speaker 1: deal last week, and the Russians offered a counter proposals saying,
Speaker 1: we have rare earth minerals.
Speaker 3: Too, you should come and help develop them and we'll
Speaker 3: cut you in on the deal.
Speaker 1: And something a little bit more nebulous and vague, but
Speaker 1: potentially just as large as the other two, which is
Speaker 1: the development of the Arctic. We all heard Trump desiring
Speaker 1: to annex Greenland. The Arctic is massive. It supposedly has vast.
Speaker 3: Stores of rare earth minerals and even fossil.
Speaker 1: Fuels, and a lot of other implications for economic development.
Speaker 1: And Russia has been competing ferociously for access to the
Speaker 1: Arctic over the last couple decades with the United States.
Speaker 1: They saw an opportunity to maybe make nice by having
Speaker 1: some talks about how to split the Arctic and make
Speaker 1: it so that Trump could come home with some win,
Speaker 1: some victory. But it just goes against decades of diplomatic strategy, So.
Speaker 2: You can't necessarily see what the long term goal of
Speaker 2: the Trump administration is when it comes to this conflict.
Speaker 1: I think our best guess is that he's okay with
Speaker 1: a multipolar world where Russia has taken seriously treated equitably
Speaker 1: in a way that it's wanted to for decades, and
Speaker 1: the US is fine with that, and Russia is seen
Speaker 1: as a partner rather than an adversary. And Trump can
Speaker 1: go back and say that he brought peace to different
Speaker 1: parts of the world through negotiation, even if there were
Speaker 1: significance concessions made. But I think any business with Russia
Speaker 1: right now just does not have any sort of guarantee,
Speaker 1: especially what we've seen the last three years in terms
Speaker 1: of nationalization and property rights violations and just so very
Speaker 1: aggressive putin government towards businesses of all types.
Speaker 2: And you talked about the way that Russia has reopened
Speaker 2: business negotiations with the US on these different fronts, But
Speaker 2: can you just tell me what was said about what
Speaker 2: Russia wants when it comes to Ukraine, what terms they
Speaker 2: would like to see.
Speaker 1: Well, they very clearly don't want Ukraine to be ever
Speaker 1: invited in too NATO, and any type of agreement that
Speaker 1: spells that out in writing, whether it's twenty years or
Speaker 1: fifty years is going to be extremely welcome in Moscow.
Speaker 1: They also want recognition for the territories that they annexed
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, that is Crimea, as well as those
Speaker 1: that they've claimed since twenty twenty two, the four regions
Speaker 1: that they illegitimately annexed in September twenty twenty two. So
Speaker 1: those are think are its main goals. But Putin doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily want peace, right, he doesn't want the fighting to
Speaker 1: stop because I think he feels he has the upper
Speaker 1: hand that Russia can withstand another year or more of
Speaker 1: this conflict, can mobilize more troops if it needs to,
Speaker 1: and I expect their wishless to expand if their campaign
Speaker 1: picks up any speed.
Speaker 2: And it does sound like from what you're saying, that
Speaker 2: Russia in approaching negotiations in the way that it has,
Speaker 2: they understand that for Trump, any peace deal is a
Speaker 2: business deal as well, that this is a transaction. Does
Speaker 2: it seem to you that that approach is working.
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 1: So we need to think of the Trump approach as
Speaker 1: kind of like corporate diplomacy. Right, this is a bunch
Speaker 1: of business people that are trotting around the world asking
Speaker 1: what can you do for us and.
Speaker 3: What can we give you in return?
Speaker 1: And let's put some numbers to those conversations, rather than
Speaker 1: thinking about what does a new security architecture look like?
Speaker 1: Or what do troop deployments? How should they be organized?
Speaker 1: Or nuclear weapons. I think all of those are going
Speaker 1: to take second priority to money. The Russians understand this,
Speaker 1: and that's why they've floated these various investment proposals because
Speaker 1: they think, and I think they're probably correct, that Trump
Speaker 1: cares more about the finances than he does about other
Speaker 1: ideological goals at this stage.
Speaker 2: David, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: You're very welcome.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, lawyers for former military lawyer
Speaker 2: David McBride have argued their client's prison sentence failed to
Speaker 2: take into account that he was acting quote bravely and
Speaker 2: selflessly in an attempt to write what he thought was
Speaker 2: a serious wrong. McBride is appealing against both his conviction
Speaker 2: and the severity of his sentence in the Act Court
Speaker 2: of Appeal after he was sentenced to five years and
Speaker 2: eight months for releasing documents to the ABC which detailed
Speaker 2: war crimes in Afghanistan and Mikey Madison has won Best
Speaker 2: Actress at the ninety seventh Academy Awards for her role
Speaker 2: as a sex worker who marries the son of a
Speaker 2: Russian oligarch in the film Anora. Meanwhile, Adrian Brody won
Speaker 2: Best Actor for his role in The Brutalist, and Shawn
Speaker 2: Baker's Anora took home both Best Picture and Best Director.
Speaker 2: I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4: It's all on